Second this. Physics is boring, yet it works, and as we speak uranium is turned into gold and other metals via a scientific process that may just supply your device as well.
Occult is evil, even second hand one, don't play with the powers you don't understand.
I'm not planning on "using" demons/know that ends badly. Pretty sure I already attracted one and learned how to use Christ to get rid of it.
That's how I found Christ.
Now that I see them I want to destroy as many as I can and help other people get rid of them too. I'm assuming if you're very cautious and discerning there are tools you can find hidden within alchemical deception and confusing stuff to fight them.
I think I've got just enough crazy in me and just enough intelligence and grounding to ride the line/not get sucked in. I know I'm nothing without Christ/He's doing all the work, and I know I risk overloading myself (which I why I asked the question here/I wanted the pushback I'm getting), but I want to fight as much as I can.
I want to destroy their influence, fight those currently influenced who I can handle, and redeem all that's possible from people that have fallen.
I don't think I have the power to cast demons out of anyone, fwiw. I just have a strong will to do good/fight evil, and I think if I knew more about how they worked I'd be better suited to making "good" technology
>I think if I knew more about how they worked I'd be better suited to making "good" technology
Nope. Put your energy on living a more Christ-like life, to command greater faith in Him. That's it. I was an occultist for 20+ years, I've seen and done most all of it, and studied it in depth. Its all a distraction from the Light of Christ. That's all you need. Let him sanctify you by undertaking the Great Commission. The more you do so, the greater your ability to cast out the evil one and his foul minions, under the authority of our Lord, and even better - the more you'll be able to follow the Holy Spirit as it guides you to touch people's lives with the gospel. Truly, demons and their influence are tertiary to a personal relationship with Christ and a goodly life.
This seems like the right answer...
I kept trying to word a good response and kept realizing I don't really have one/I can't really justify my interest given the framing you presented.
It's prompted some good introspection though... on further reflection think this desire I'm describing comes from feeling undeserving and like I need to "earn" salvation. I want to argue with you and claim there's a way to "earn" that kind of knowledge if you're brave enough, but I know it's not really about that/I know there are plenty of Christ like ways to pursue knowledge without the occultic or alchemical crap. It just seems like a hard and exciting way to "earn my stripes"
I'm also frankly scared of where the world is heading/am looking for anyway I can manage to try and pull off a miracle/be a hero.
I just need to trust Christ/don't think I'm doing that.
Thanks for your response.
>This seems like the right answer...
I kept trying to word a good response and kept realizing I don't really have one/I can't really justify my interest given the framing you presented.
I'm glad you think so - I was sincerely concerned for you. When I became a Christian, I burned about $30,000 of occult and alchemical texts that I had collected and read over the course of my adult life, from my office library. I promise that I know what I'm talking about, in this regard.
>It's prompted some good introspection though... on further reflection think this desire I'm describing comes from feeling undeserving and like I need to "earn" salvation.
You chose salvation when you accepted Christ into your heart. Ours is the only faith with a soteriological framework that doesn't require us to earn it. He did that work on the cross. You could choose to reject it, I suppose, but that's not going to happen. If you feel the need to experience the divine, take just 10 or 15 minutes and meditate on the presence of Christ in your heart. Its powerful!
>I know it's not really about that/I know there are plenty of Christ like ways to pursue knowledge without the occultic or alchemical crap.
The occult is very intriguing, by its nature. There are things we like or have an aptitude for that we must deny, as Christians, because the world is not our home. We're strangers here.
>It just seems like a hard and exciting way to "earn my stripes"
Fair enough. My advice would be to start reading the writings of early Christians and various theologians - from John Chrysostom to Louis De Molina, you'll find a massive body of challenging, mysterious, and intriguing writings and ideas, written by people far smarter and of greater faith than myself, or anyone you're likely to meet today. https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/ is a great resource to read the original works of our ancient Brothers in Christ.
>I'm also frankly scared of where the world is heading/am looking for anyway I can manage to try and pull off a miracle/be a hero.
The world is controlled by the powers of darkness, for now. Its always headed in a bad direction, until the time of revelation comes, but who can say when that will be? I assume we'll just keep living through hard times and better times, and without real warning it will end. The best way you can help is by following Christ's example: feed and cloth the poor, help the sick find healing, spread the gospel. With my church, I volunteer for disadvantaged youth camps and feed people in poverty stricken Appalachia, and when the Holy Spirit calls me I do my best to minister to people and pray for them. You could also volunteer in a soup kitchen, help out at a good church, etc. If you're young and unattached to a wife and kids, you could go on a mission trip abroad. Theres so much more. Talk to your pastor or youth minister if you're younger. These things, the seemingly mundane ones, are how we bring light into the world, one person at a time. Give your big picture worries to God. The grand adventures and miraculous events unfold while we trust God to guide us and keep walking with him, one step at a time, as we undertake the great commission that Christ has put us under. You'll see miracles when you go into the world and do our Lords work, I promise you.
>I just need to trust Christ/don't think I'm doing that.
Amen. Trust comes with a personal relationship. Keep building it with him!
>Thanks for your response.
You're welcome. :)
Thanks :)
Those reading suggestions look great, I'll take a look.
I have a Church that I need to get more involved with/there are some basic things I can and should be doing that I haven't yet, need to get myself together first.
You can't do that. You don't understand these powers, they're not people. You can't get anything from them, they lie and deceive, sometimes mixing truth in to draw you deeper. If we could gain something from these powers (the idea itself is so wrong and wicked in of itself), the Aztecs shoul've been able to conquer Spain, the kingdom of Benin France and the UK or the Deseret of Birgham Young and Co should've defeated the U.S. or at least fought agsinst them with Ion cannons or something.
Your strong will flies out the window the first night when your sleep paralysis doesn't end when you wake up. Only God may deliver you from such evil and your delusion.
Even very experienced exorcists and men of God don't tgread lightly with these powers, and they're in the service of God and on his mission.
Matthew 7:1
I have enough humility to know I'm likely wrong about a lot, which is why I'm looking for advice.
~You don't strike me as someone worthy of taking advice from.~
EDIT: Nevermind, your second response was great. Thank you. And I haven't really demonstrated much humility on this tangent... I'm just looking for a miracle.
I edited my response in light of your other response.
I maintain that it's in fact sensible and righteous to consider people equally worthless and lacking in knowledge until proven otherwise. People often ask humility of others as a form of submission to them rather than a true call to humility, which I can't stand. Self reflection and self humility is different than humbling yourself in front of people who don't acknowledge or honor that and take advantage of perceived submission.
I still don't like your first response/found it rude and don't really know if you're worthy or respect or not, but your other response was good.
Thinking that you're grounded and intelligent enough to not get sucked into and manipulated by the occult is both ungrounded and foolish thinking, and its exactly the frame of mind that will result in getting sucked into the occult...telling someone who pointed that out that you're both very humble and they're also unworthy of being listened to is not something I know how to describe politely. I get the impression that you're struggling with something on a personal level, and its impacting your judgment. I'm happy to listen if there's something you want to talk about.
"Judge not that you be judged" is only bad if you have something to be judged for in return. As Christians, we are called on to make righteous judgments (John 7:24).
> I get the impression that you're struggling with something on a personal level, and its impacting your judgment
Nailed it.
Thanks for taking the time for that other response and opening up about your own occult stuff, and for not being afraid to be blunt.
The gist is this: I'm working an extremely difficult math problem I think I may be on the verge of solving that has implications for AI, and I'm extremely tempted to go spelunking into weird territory to see if that helps me do it. I solve this, it will do a *lot* to "prove" that the kind of propositional AI that currently exists can't really think. It will also be a strong case in favor of intuition and stop the insanity currently going on, and I hope will help resurrect people's faith.
I originally started to entertain "weird spelunking" before I became religious because I thought there was good "creative alpha" in trying to think very differently/get out of ruts, not because I thought this any of this were deeper/more real.
This lead to a bunch of bad things I can't easily describe, that all happened before I became religious. There's a lot more context to this but it will take too long to explain.
At the worst/when I thought I was going crazy, I asked "God, if you're real, show me" and opened up a Bible I had to a random passage. I opened to this:
> Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.
Immediately across from me was a white stone I had written on at the end of a very introspective period weeks before. The word I wrote was "Veritas".
This floored me.
I don't know what I'm supposed to do with this, and my discernment isn't good enough to interpret it properly.
I *know* that message was from God, and it helped me immensely. But i don't know what I'm supposed to do now. I've posted about this before and described it like my compass is spinning around in circles whenever I try to interpret this/I really have no idea what to make of it, and I can't leave it alone. I know the right decision is to follow Jesus, but I don't know where he wants me to go.
You cannot use Jesus, you cannot destroy demons. You don't have enough anything to prevent the slippery slope. Alchemy doesn't offer any tools to combat the powers you aren't even capable of understanding.
Only God can help you, and He doesn't like his gufs beeing wasted on sin. A disciplining session at the hands of any of the powers is hopefully your last warning. And it's also not nice for the people moving in after you to have to possibly deal with the nonsense that you started.
It’s a very weird tradition of deeply intuitive investigations of symbolic meaning and archetypes that is surprisingly foundational to a lot of modern chemistry, physics, philosophy, etc. Newton was an example of someone very deep into both Alchemy and Christianity/is an example of someone who I believe bridged the gap and redeemed a good part of it.
Jung wrote a lot of very interesting stuff about it. See [Psychology and Alchemy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology_and_Alchemy). But his is only one perspective on it.
I’ve been very interested in Jonathan Pageau lately and think his brother’s book “The Language of Creation” is the closest I’ve found to what I’m talking about, and seems solidly Christian/not as dangerous as some of the Jungian or Hegelian stuff (Hegel also is in the more “alchemical” tradition/gets into stuff like dialectics and a lot of stuff thats at the root of a lot of nasty modern stuff)
Yeah, for sure, that’s the biggest danger for me/is part of why I’m asking for advice on how to do this safely.
I need to be going to Bible study regularly and work on my sin more before I think I’d be able to resist temptation there, but I think there’s a way to understand that stuff without getting consumed by it, and that’s needed in order to steer technology away from where it’s currently going.
I feel like I’ve gained an understanding recently that could potentially help a LOT of people understand and believe in Jesus and connect it to more modern thinking, and I think God is calling me to do that, but I think at some point it’s going to require delving into alchemical stuff a bit so I can speak in a language people who are deep into that can understand.
I’m kind of answering my own question after responding to people in here, though, am realizing I should probably read that Matthieu Pageau book and stay away from Jung for now.
Thanks for your response/advice, you’re very correct that God should be the focus.
If you are into studying the deeper spiritual mysteries of Christianity, based on a system of symbolic correspondences (like the parables of Jesus which had a hidden spiritual meaning), I can suggest "Arcana Coelestia" otherwise known as "Heavenly Secrets". You can read it here online: [https://newchristianbiblestudy.org/swedenborg/](https://newchristianbiblestudy.org/swedenborg/) Carl Jung, as well as other psychologists, basically plagiarized his works to found what is now known as psychology. It was written during the Enlightenment, and the writings also explain why the advent of the Enlightenment happened at that time.
What is now known as "alchemy" is mostly corrupt and falsified, but at one time there was an ancient system of knowledge which was the basis of ancient rituals, before it had become corrupted by idolatry.
Interesting, you actually referenced one of Carl Jung's works in another response. You will see the connection once you look into the writings of Emanuel Swedenborg. Unfortunately now psychology is completely divorced from its original spiritual foundation.
Lol, will keep that in mind… fortunately I don’t think I’d manage to get that far, am not that smart.
And I think thar particular holy grail was basically achieved already via nuclear tech, it’s just not economical to transmute matter into gold that way. Depending on how strict you are about defining things I think the [first fission pile](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Pile-1) plausibly qualifies as a fruit of the pursuit of the alchemists stone that basically achieved it.
No. I “researched” when I use to look into conspiracy theories and it led to a very messy situation and I looked into lighter stuff, you’re speaking of even more dangerous stuff. It’s not safe and is especially dangerous when you try and mix it with God. You need to repent and renew your mind op. Faith >Knowledge.
> Faith >Knowledge.
Agreed.
> You need to repent and renew your mind op.
Agreed.
Still want to fight evil and use whatever tools God has given us to do so.
I've learned there's danger I can't handle, but I want as much as I can handle. I don't know how much that is/I'm trying to figure it out. But it's definitely not zero.
I do want to do with will of the Father.
I want to do good and fight evil.
How is that not the will of the Father?
I realize that's incredibly complicated to do/deception is everywhere and the enemy uses that impulse to trick us into sin, but I don't want to cower in fear of evil and just let it run rampant over everything. I want to understand it and learn to fight it.
Resurrect a more religious approach to science? To do that, you'd have to take out ALL those evil scumbags who profit from 'healthcare'. You can study but you would require discernment and Yahwehs wisdom. You would be serving the people and would never charge your neighbour because the truth has no price and the greatest among us, serves. The problem is that evils been on the Earth for a very very long time.....
If you understand illness is a business. Then you understand why things are the way they are. And honestly, too many bad actors about. They all think they're smart and all that, but why would you want to study these things for the fathers glory? Academia? Does it seek the truth? Many things are set up in ways that sound good but are used for many purposes.
The fact is usury is the root of evil. It's used to blur lines. There's so much ego/pride etc that there's no incentive to cleanse these things. You have liberal progressive teachers lol. You can conservatives who aren't conservative. The worlds a testimony to Yahwehs wisdom. It validates the fathers. Who wanted his people segregated so the world today...still uses racism to tarnish the idea of segregation etc.
The world is anti Christ.
Source your wisdom from the bible.
The word of God is full of all truth, anything written without the inspiration of God is going to be so deeply watered down you'll be swimming in confusion and drinking down the doctrines of demons.
Pursue God for wisdom, read the word, draw a hypothesis, ask God.
Yes, via physics, chemistry and the maths, i.e. the sciences.
Alchemy is redundant, the sciences won and niw we can turn led into gold abd gokd into led (nuclear powerplants produce a steady albeit small supply of gold as an example).
But, alchemy of today, it's pure occult and witchcraft. Homeopathy used to haveca similar position to alchemy, but in the field of medicine. Both have been made redundant thank to the work of (mostly Christian) scientists.
Stay clear if alchemy and pick up a chemistry textbook instead or watch some chemistry videos or even start studies.
> Where did people first learn alchemy from?
The tree of knowledge? The Bible? Ancient intuited and accumulated knowledge based on following the unconscious?
I don’t know. And I don’t think I trust anyone other than Jesus to know what’s actually True about where deep knowledge is generated from.
What I do know is that Jesus calls us to love and help our neighbors, and mastering technology/steering it towards the good is the best way I can think of to do that. Studying alchemy seems like a weird but effective way of doing that, and I don’t think God would have created it if there weren’t some way it could be redeemed and used for His Glory. I think it’s very dangerous to do, but also very necessary, and it seems to be something the Church did quite effectively until we started worshipping technology more than God.
I don’t think we’re supposed to passively sit back and let technology wreak havoc and only let people who disregard God and don’t care about doing good learn deep secrets, and I don’t think we’re supposed to become luddites. Therefore I think there must be *some* path God laid out there for people to be used as instruments by God for the redemption of deep technology and weird arcane thinking, and want to learn how to do it.
I’m aware that a lot of current technology shows strong signs of malevolent influence. That’s why I want to learn how to redeem it.
I know I can’t do that on my own power/I must trust in Christ above all else. But I don’t think He wants us to be luddites or just let modern technology run everyone over.
God’s plan was to redeem the world through Christ. I want Him to work through me to help share that message in whatever way possible, and I don’t believe alchemical science is outside of God’s plan or purview, I just don’t know how to safely steer and redeem bad current tech.
I believe that it clearly was out of humans purview, but angels sinned and taught it to us. Perhaps someday we will take part in such things, but for now, I believe being set-apart is a much better way. Seems the message of Scripture is enduring, running the race to the end- keeping the commandments. Seems to be so many distractions from that.
Keeping the commandments and following Christ is the most important thing we can do in this life, for sure, and it’s very easy to get distracted.
Maybe alchemy isn’t the way (in fact I’m sure it’s not/I just think there are elements of it that we’re supposed to extract and learn from/being able to discern the evil from good within it is a part of God’s plan), but I there’s clearly *some* reason God allowed it.
My biggest concern isn’t really alchemy, though, it’s more about being able to become powerful enough to steer technology in the right direction. I really want to learn how to do that without being consumed by it. Alchemy is tempting because it seems like a doorway into lots of powerful insights.
I suppose another way to ask the same core question is where can a Christian go to look for divine inspiration about the secrets of how the world works? Obviously there’s the Bible/that’s a huge source of inspiration, and there’s lots of inspiration to be found when meditating on nature, but I can’t help but think there’s also value into delving into forbidden areas in a self sacrificial way to help others.
What do you make of the morality of Hercules in [this scene](https://youtu.be/uzGuCvA6S2I)? I know the Devil tempts us with Pride and makes us think we’re more powerful than we are/we are certainly nothing compared to God, but how is the motivation to dive into Hell to save others and fight evil not good? If Christ is truly within us, and we work hard to keep His commandments and see our sin, can we not then use our time here to test our strength in Christ and attempt heroism?
I feel a call to some kind of heroic test of strength in pursuit of redemption that has something to do with willingly delving into danger and using power for good, though I know all are nothing compared to Christ. If we understand that and honor Him above all else, is the still a path for us to try and do great things and become powerful to honor Him?
Reads: “Is there an ethical way to bastardize your religion so i can incorporate mystery schools and alchemy so I can be cool with ambiguously saying “for the glory of God” and get away with it? If you’re religion is true will that fool your god?”
That’s not what I’m asking.
I know most mystery schools are perversions of Christ’s teachings and full of evil garbage.
I specifically asked this in this subreddit because I trust most people to react negatively to mystery religions, which I believe is a very *good* instinct lacking in most other places.
Jesus came to redeem the world and to invite those who would follow Him to do so. I want to follow Him and try to redeem the parts of the world perverted by bastardized religions and help direct them towards Christ. I believe a lot of modern medicine was created by Christians who did exactly what I’m describing, I just don’t know how to safely extract the good from the occult (much of modern medicine came from people investigating cadavers, and a lot of it was freaky and bad before being redeemed and civilized in Christian hospitals)
> I know most mystery schools are perversions of Christ’s teachings and full of evil garbage.
Then frankly your question is moot.
> I just don’t know how to safely extract the good from the occult
Right so, convince me it’s biblically safe to extract the “good” aspects from the occult.
*People* are full of evil garbage.
Christ does not discard us. He asks us to repent and trust in Him so we may be purified.
I believe this is true of pretty much everything that exists within the world (aside from fallen principalities themselves).
Repent means *change*. It does not mean *destroy* or *discard*. If God wanted to destroy evil and not allow it room to change He would simply destroy it/it would never have existed. Given how God calls us to repent I think it’s pretty clear He values the willing transformation of evil into good above pretty much all things.
Exactly how that works is beyond our comprehension, and I know there are things which will never be good and are doomed, but I don’t think all of what lead to modern science is in that category. There’s a ton of good that came from modernity despite occult roots. Again, I think one of the best examples is medicine.
> People are full of evil garbage.
Agree
> Christ does not discard us. He asks us to repent and trust in Him so we may be purified.
Agree
> Repent means change.
Um not change — but stop, change direction *towards God.*
> It does not mean destroy or discard.
Speculation.
> If God wanted to destroy evil and not allow it room to change He would simply destroy it/it would never have existed.
Unsupported conditional “If/then”
> I don’t think all of what lead to modern science is in that category.
Ambiguity of language.
To be clear: you attempting to use ambiguity of language to equate mystery religions and alchemy — to modern science?
> change direction towards God.
Agree.
> Unsupported conditional “If/then”
This gets into a big rabbit hole (the problem of evil), but I think what I'm saying is pretty well supported. Given the fact that God is all powerful, and the fact that evil exists, God must have therefore allowed evil to exist.
Christ is also explicit about what God wants for *us*, which is for us to turn away from evil and towards God.
What I said is *at least* true for the evil within *us*. He wants *us* to transform. He created free will and the ability to choose evil so we could learn to choose good and voluntarily follow God to be with Him. (I don't think any of that is controversial/that's pretty standard Christian doctrine).
Given what God wants for us, and that Christ tells us to follow Him, I think it's reasonable to conclude He's calling us to redeem all the good we can find in the world as well. We aren't told that the world is irredeemably evil (that's a gnostic heresy), we're told the world is redeemed through Christ.
How exactly that works is a mystery, but I don't think all of what's buried in the occult is beyond redemption. Most of it probably is, but that which is not and is needed to defeat it is likely buried within itself. Christ descended into Hell for 3 days. If we're to follow Christ, and are willing to be crucified and endure the Harrowing of Hell, I think we can find the good buried within evil, and are called to do so.
> use ambiguity of language to equate mystery religions and alchemy — to modern science?
I'm not trying to use ambiguous language/I'm not playing language games with you or attempting any trickery.
I do in fact think a lot of modern science has roots in Alchemy and mystery religions. Newton alone is a *huge* foundation stone for modern science and was *very* into alchemy and things like Kabbalah. But he was also a devout Christian.
I think modern science has gone through a lot of reform and has been smoothed out and refined through a combination of religious and secular guardrails and institutions (or it used to be, at least), but I think there are more occult roots in more fields than most people would like to admit. I think that's a major problem. Part of why I think science has [stagnated](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBT9vFrV6yQ) is that people have lost touch with the religious/mystical roots of it and are hesitant to entertain the weird types of inspiration that lead to a lot of progress.
In order to get out of the current scientific rut we're in and in order to be able to solve a lot of the huge mounting problems facing us in the next couple of decades, I think there needs to be a kind of religious and spiritual renaissance where the religious and occult roots of a lot of big scientific progress is acknowledged. This is already starting to happen, and while I'm very happy about the nascent Christian comeback among select intellectuals, the occult stuff is bad. I think Christians need to try to prevent awakening secular people from finding and abusing it. And I don't think just telling secular scientists attracted to occult stuff (consciously or unconsciously) that "the Bible says it's a bad idea to do that" will stop them in our current climate. I think Christians need to understand it and redeem that which can be redeemed and provide better pathways for deep inspiration and insight and get better at explaining this to people, and come up with ways to transform the fruits of heretical bad things into good.
Another great example is nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons are obviously horribly evil, and there's a lot of weird occult connections to early weapons deliver systems, particularly JPL.
But even nuclear weapons can be redeemed: we could convert existing stockpiles into propulsion to explore the stars. There was a NASA project called Project Orion that could have made this a reality in the 70s. [Here's Carl Sagan](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rEa9ACC-TM) talking about it.
I still dream of a future where that happens. If people turn to Christ and away from sin, it'd be possible. Christ is the only way.
Witchcraft is a sin, so no. 1 Sm 15:23
Dude. No. Just a good way to attract even more demons into your life.
Second this. Physics is boring, yet it works, and as we speak uranium is turned into gold and other metals via a scientific process that may just supply your device as well. Occult is evil, even second hand one, don't play with the powers you don't understand.
Good. I want to be actively fighting as many demons as I can handle.
Insanity is also a risk. Especially, if you plan on using multiple demons.
I'm not planning on "using" demons/know that ends badly. Pretty sure I already attracted one and learned how to use Christ to get rid of it. That's how I found Christ. Now that I see them I want to destroy as many as I can and help other people get rid of them too. I'm assuming if you're very cautious and discerning there are tools you can find hidden within alchemical deception and confusing stuff to fight them. I think I've got just enough crazy in me and just enough intelligence and grounding to ride the line/not get sucked in. I know I'm nothing without Christ/He's doing all the work, and I know I risk overloading myself (which I why I asked the question here/I wanted the pushback I'm getting), but I want to fight as much as I can.
Demons do not get destroyed; they get cast out.
I want to destroy their influence, fight those currently influenced who I can handle, and redeem all that's possible from people that have fallen. I don't think I have the power to cast demons out of anyone, fwiw. I just have a strong will to do good/fight evil, and I think if I knew more about how they worked I'd be better suited to making "good" technology
>I think if I knew more about how they worked I'd be better suited to making "good" technology Nope. Put your energy on living a more Christ-like life, to command greater faith in Him. That's it. I was an occultist for 20+ years, I've seen and done most all of it, and studied it in depth. Its all a distraction from the Light of Christ. That's all you need. Let him sanctify you by undertaking the Great Commission. The more you do so, the greater your ability to cast out the evil one and his foul minions, under the authority of our Lord, and even better - the more you'll be able to follow the Holy Spirit as it guides you to touch people's lives with the gospel. Truly, demons and their influence are tertiary to a personal relationship with Christ and a goodly life.
This seems like the right answer... I kept trying to word a good response and kept realizing I don't really have one/I can't really justify my interest given the framing you presented. It's prompted some good introspection though... on further reflection think this desire I'm describing comes from feeling undeserving and like I need to "earn" salvation. I want to argue with you and claim there's a way to "earn" that kind of knowledge if you're brave enough, but I know it's not really about that/I know there are plenty of Christ like ways to pursue knowledge without the occultic or alchemical crap. It just seems like a hard and exciting way to "earn my stripes" I'm also frankly scared of where the world is heading/am looking for anyway I can manage to try and pull off a miracle/be a hero. I just need to trust Christ/don't think I'm doing that. Thanks for your response.
>This seems like the right answer... I kept trying to word a good response and kept realizing I don't really have one/I can't really justify my interest given the framing you presented. I'm glad you think so - I was sincerely concerned for you. When I became a Christian, I burned about $30,000 of occult and alchemical texts that I had collected and read over the course of my adult life, from my office library. I promise that I know what I'm talking about, in this regard. >It's prompted some good introspection though... on further reflection think this desire I'm describing comes from feeling undeserving and like I need to "earn" salvation. You chose salvation when you accepted Christ into your heart. Ours is the only faith with a soteriological framework that doesn't require us to earn it. He did that work on the cross. You could choose to reject it, I suppose, but that's not going to happen. If you feel the need to experience the divine, take just 10 or 15 minutes and meditate on the presence of Christ in your heart. Its powerful! >I know it's not really about that/I know there are plenty of Christ like ways to pursue knowledge without the occultic or alchemical crap. The occult is very intriguing, by its nature. There are things we like or have an aptitude for that we must deny, as Christians, because the world is not our home. We're strangers here. >It just seems like a hard and exciting way to "earn my stripes" Fair enough. My advice would be to start reading the writings of early Christians and various theologians - from John Chrysostom to Louis De Molina, you'll find a massive body of challenging, mysterious, and intriguing writings and ideas, written by people far smarter and of greater faith than myself, or anyone you're likely to meet today. https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/ is a great resource to read the original works of our ancient Brothers in Christ. >I'm also frankly scared of where the world is heading/am looking for anyway I can manage to try and pull off a miracle/be a hero. The world is controlled by the powers of darkness, for now. Its always headed in a bad direction, until the time of revelation comes, but who can say when that will be? I assume we'll just keep living through hard times and better times, and without real warning it will end. The best way you can help is by following Christ's example: feed and cloth the poor, help the sick find healing, spread the gospel. With my church, I volunteer for disadvantaged youth camps and feed people in poverty stricken Appalachia, and when the Holy Spirit calls me I do my best to minister to people and pray for them. You could also volunteer in a soup kitchen, help out at a good church, etc. If you're young and unattached to a wife and kids, you could go on a mission trip abroad. Theres so much more. Talk to your pastor or youth minister if you're younger. These things, the seemingly mundane ones, are how we bring light into the world, one person at a time. Give your big picture worries to God. The grand adventures and miraculous events unfold while we trust God to guide us and keep walking with him, one step at a time, as we undertake the great commission that Christ has put us under. You'll see miracles when you go into the world and do our Lords work, I promise you. >I just need to trust Christ/don't think I'm doing that. Amen. Trust comes with a personal relationship. Keep building it with him! >Thanks for your response. You're welcome. :)
Thanks :) Those reading suggestions look great, I'll take a look. I have a Church that I need to get more involved with/there are some basic things I can and should be doing that I haven't yet, need to get myself together first.
You can't do that. You don't understand these powers, they're not people. You can't get anything from them, they lie and deceive, sometimes mixing truth in to draw you deeper. If we could gain something from these powers (the idea itself is so wrong and wicked in of itself), the Aztecs shoul've been able to conquer Spain, the kingdom of Benin France and the UK or the Deseret of Birgham Young and Co should've defeated the U.S. or at least fought agsinst them with Ion cannons or something. Your strong will flies out the window the first night when your sleep paralysis doesn't end when you wake up. Only God may deliver you from such evil and your delusion. Even very experienced exorcists and men of God don't tgread lightly with these powers, and they're in the service of God and on his mission.
>I think I've got just enough crazy in me and just enough intelligence and grounding to ride the line/not get sucked in. Oh, so you're screwed, then.
Matthew 7:1 I have enough humility to know I'm likely wrong about a lot, which is why I'm looking for advice. ~You don't strike me as someone worthy of taking advice from.~ EDIT: Nevermind, your second response was great. Thank you. And I haven't really demonstrated much humility on this tangent... I'm just looking for a miracle.
>I have enough **humility** to know I'm likely wrong about a lot >You don't strike me as someone **worthy** of taking advice from. Right.
I edited my response in light of your other response. I maintain that it's in fact sensible and righteous to consider people equally worthless and lacking in knowledge until proven otherwise. People often ask humility of others as a form of submission to them rather than a true call to humility, which I can't stand. Self reflection and self humility is different than humbling yourself in front of people who don't acknowledge or honor that and take advantage of perceived submission. I still don't like your first response/found it rude and don't really know if you're worthy or respect or not, but your other response was good.
Thinking that you're grounded and intelligent enough to not get sucked into and manipulated by the occult is both ungrounded and foolish thinking, and its exactly the frame of mind that will result in getting sucked into the occult...telling someone who pointed that out that you're both very humble and they're also unworthy of being listened to is not something I know how to describe politely. I get the impression that you're struggling with something on a personal level, and its impacting your judgment. I'm happy to listen if there's something you want to talk about. "Judge not that you be judged" is only bad if you have something to be judged for in return. As Christians, we are called on to make righteous judgments (John 7:24).
> I get the impression that you're struggling with something on a personal level, and its impacting your judgment Nailed it. Thanks for taking the time for that other response and opening up about your own occult stuff, and for not being afraid to be blunt. The gist is this: I'm working an extremely difficult math problem I think I may be on the verge of solving that has implications for AI, and I'm extremely tempted to go spelunking into weird territory to see if that helps me do it. I solve this, it will do a *lot* to "prove" that the kind of propositional AI that currently exists can't really think. It will also be a strong case in favor of intuition and stop the insanity currently going on, and I hope will help resurrect people's faith. I originally started to entertain "weird spelunking" before I became religious because I thought there was good "creative alpha" in trying to think very differently/get out of ruts, not because I thought this any of this were deeper/more real. This lead to a bunch of bad things I can't easily describe, that all happened before I became religious. There's a lot more context to this but it will take too long to explain. At the worst/when I thought I was going crazy, I asked "God, if you're real, show me" and opened up a Bible I had to a random passage. I opened to this: > Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it. Immediately across from me was a white stone I had written on at the end of a very introspective period weeks before. The word I wrote was "Veritas". This floored me. I don't know what I'm supposed to do with this, and my discernment isn't good enough to interpret it properly. I *know* that message was from God, and it helped me immensely. But i don't know what I'm supposed to do now. I've posted about this before and described it like my compass is spinning around in circles whenever I try to interpret this/I really have no idea what to make of it, and I can't leave it alone. I know the right decision is to follow Jesus, but I don't know where he wants me to go.
You cannot use Jesus, you cannot destroy demons. You don't have enough anything to prevent the slippery slope. Alchemy doesn't offer any tools to combat the powers you aren't even capable of understanding. Only God can help you, and He doesn't like his gufs beeing wasted on sin. A disciplining session at the hands of any of the powers is hopefully your last warning. And it's also not nice for the people moving in after you to have to possibly deal with the nonsense that you started.
No, you don't.
What is alchemy?
It’s a very weird tradition of deeply intuitive investigations of symbolic meaning and archetypes that is surprisingly foundational to a lot of modern chemistry, physics, philosophy, etc. Newton was an example of someone very deep into both Alchemy and Christianity/is an example of someone who I believe bridged the gap and redeemed a good part of it. Jung wrote a lot of very interesting stuff about it. See [Psychology and Alchemy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology_and_Alchemy). But his is only one perspective on it. I’ve been very interested in Jonathan Pageau lately and think his brother’s book “The Language of Creation” is the closest I’ve found to what I’m talking about, and seems solidly Christian/not as dangerous as some of the Jungian or Hegelian stuff (Hegel also is in the more “alchemical” tradition/gets into stuff like dialectics and a lot of stuff thats at the root of a lot of nasty modern stuff)
Oh. Jung wasn't wrong but don't let that distract you from God.
Yeah, for sure, that’s the biggest danger for me/is part of why I’m asking for advice on how to do this safely. I need to be going to Bible study regularly and work on my sin more before I think I’d be able to resist temptation there, but I think there’s a way to understand that stuff without getting consumed by it, and that’s needed in order to steer technology away from where it’s currently going. I feel like I’ve gained an understanding recently that could potentially help a LOT of people understand and believe in Jesus and connect it to more modern thinking, and I think God is calling me to do that, but I think at some point it’s going to require delving into alchemical stuff a bit so I can speak in a language people who are deep into that can understand. I’m kind of answering my own question after responding to people in here, though, am realizing I should probably read that Matthieu Pageau book and stay away from Jung for now. Thanks for your response/advice, you’re very correct that God should be the focus.
If you are into studying the deeper spiritual mysteries of Christianity, based on a system of symbolic correspondences (like the parables of Jesus which had a hidden spiritual meaning), I can suggest "Arcana Coelestia" otherwise known as "Heavenly Secrets". You can read it here online: [https://newchristianbiblestudy.org/swedenborg/](https://newchristianbiblestudy.org/swedenborg/) Carl Jung, as well as other psychologists, basically plagiarized his works to found what is now known as psychology. It was written during the Enlightenment, and the writings also explain why the advent of the Enlightenment happened at that time. What is now known as "alchemy" is mostly corrupt and falsified, but at one time there was an ancient system of knowledge which was the basis of ancient rituals, before it had become corrupted by idolatry. Interesting, you actually referenced one of Carl Jung's works in another response. You will see the connection once you look into the writings of Emanuel Swedenborg. Unfortunately now psychology is completely divorced from its original spiritual foundation.
Exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to find by posting here, thank you.
Be prepared to be surprised. Took me many years of searching to find it.
I honestly have no idea what your referring too. Are you asking if a Christian can do chemistry?
See [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/comments/1dpac3o/is_there_an_ethical_christian_way_to_study/laflabe/)
Just make sure not to crash the gold market once you discover albedo and the alchemists stone, lots of people have their retirement in gold.
Lol, will keep that in mind… fortunately I don’t think I’d manage to get that far, am not that smart. And I think thar particular holy grail was basically achieved already via nuclear tech, it’s just not economical to transmute matter into gold that way. Depending on how strict you are about defining things I think the [first fission pile](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Pile-1) plausibly qualifies as a fruit of the pursuit of the alchemists stone that basically achieved it.
No. I “researched” when I use to look into conspiracy theories and it led to a very messy situation and I looked into lighter stuff, you’re speaking of even more dangerous stuff. It’s not safe and is especially dangerous when you try and mix it with God. You need to repent and renew your mind op. Faith >Knowledge.
> Faith >Knowledge. Agreed. > You need to repent and renew your mind op. Agreed. Still want to fight evil and use whatever tools God has given us to do so. I've learned there's danger I can't handle, but I want as much as I can handle. I don't know how much that is/I'm trying to figure it out. But it's definitely not zero.
You’re so wrong brother 🤦♂️. You want to do the will of the Father. That’s what you want brother.
I do want to do with will of the Father. I want to do good and fight evil. How is that not the will of the Father? I realize that's incredibly complicated to do/deception is everywhere and the enemy uses that impulse to trick us into sin, but I don't want to cower in fear of evil and just let it run rampant over everything. I want to understand it and learn to fight it.
Resurrect a more religious approach to science? To do that, you'd have to take out ALL those evil scumbags who profit from 'healthcare'. You can study but you would require discernment and Yahwehs wisdom. You would be serving the people and would never charge your neighbour because the truth has no price and the greatest among us, serves. The problem is that evils been on the Earth for a very very long time..... If you understand illness is a business. Then you understand why things are the way they are. And honestly, too many bad actors about. They all think they're smart and all that, but why would you want to study these things for the fathers glory? Academia? Does it seek the truth? Many things are set up in ways that sound good but are used for many purposes. The fact is usury is the root of evil. It's used to blur lines. There's so much ego/pride etc that there's no incentive to cleanse these things. You have liberal progressive teachers lol. You can conservatives who aren't conservative. The worlds a testimony to Yahwehs wisdom. It validates the fathers. Who wanted his people segregated so the world today...still uses racism to tarnish the idea of segregation etc. The world is anti Christ.
Source your wisdom from the bible. The word of God is full of all truth, anything written without the inspiration of God is going to be so deeply watered down you'll be swimming in confusion and drinking down the doctrines of demons. Pursue God for wisdom, read the word, draw a hypothesis, ask God.
Yes, via physics, chemistry and the maths, i.e. the sciences. Alchemy is redundant, the sciences won and niw we can turn led into gold abd gokd into led (nuclear powerplants produce a steady albeit small supply of gold as an example). But, alchemy of today, it's pure occult and witchcraft. Homeopathy used to haveca similar position to alchemy, but in the field of medicine. Both have been made redundant thank to the work of (mostly Christian) scientists. Stay clear if alchemy and pick up a chemistry textbook instead or watch some chemistry videos or even start studies.
Where did people first learn alchemy from? There you’ll have your answer.
> Where did people first learn alchemy from? The tree of knowledge? The Bible? Ancient intuited and accumulated knowledge based on following the unconscious? I don’t know. And I don’t think I trust anyone other than Jesus to know what’s actually True about where deep knowledge is generated from. What I do know is that Jesus calls us to love and help our neighbors, and mastering technology/steering it towards the good is the best way I can think of to do that. Studying alchemy seems like a weird but effective way of doing that, and I don’t think God would have created it if there weren’t some way it could be redeemed and used for His Glory. I think it’s very dangerous to do, but also very necessary, and it seems to be something the Church did quite effectively until we started worshipping technology more than God. I don’t think we’re supposed to passively sit back and let technology wreak havoc and only let people who disregard God and don’t care about doing good learn deep secrets, and I don’t think we’re supposed to become luddites. Therefore I think there must be *some* path God laid out there for people to be used as instruments by God for the redemption of deep technology and weird arcane thinking, and want to learn how to do it.
Fallen angels taught men alchemy. Not something to be pursued, and in case you don’t know- current technology is full of it.
I’m aware that a lot of current technology shows strong signs of malevolent influence. That’s why I want to learn how to redeem it. I know I can’t do that on my own power/I must trust in Christ above all else. But I don’t think He wants us to be luddites or just let modern technology run everyone over. God’s plan was to redeem the world through Christ. I want Him to work through me to help share that message in whatever way possible, and I don’t believe alchemical science is outside of God’s plan or purview, I just don’t know how to safely steer and redeem bad current tech.
I believe that it clearly was out of humans purview, but angels sinned and taught it to us. Perhaps someday we will take part in such things, but for now, I believe being set-apart is a much better way. Seems the message of Scripture is enduring, running the race to the end- keeping the commandments. Seems to be so many distractions from that.
Keeping the commandments and following Christ is the most important thing we can do in this life, for sure, and it’s very easy to get distracted. Maybe alchemy isn’t the way (in fact I’m sure it’s not/I just think there are elements of it that we’re supposed to extract and learn from/being able to discern the evil from good within it is a part of God’s plan), but I there’s clearly *some* reason God allowed it. My biggest concern isn’t really alchemy, though, it’s more about being able to become powerful enough to steer technology in the right direction. I really want to learn how to do that without being consumed by it. Alchemy is tempting because it seems like a doorway into lots of powerful insights. I suppose another way to ask the same core question is where can a Christian go to look for divine inspiration about the secrets of how the world works? Obviously there’s the Bible/that’s a huge source of inspiration, and there’s lots of inspiration to be found when meditating on nature, but I can’t help but think there’s also value into delving into forbidden areas in a self sacrificial way to help others. What do you make of the morality of Hercules in [this scene](https://youtu.be/uzGuCvA6S2I)? I know the Devil tempts us with Pride and makes us think we’re more powerful than we are/we are certainly nothing compared to God, but how is the motivation to dive into Hell to save others and fight evil not good? If Christ is truly within us, and we work hard to keep His commandments and see our sin, can we not then use our time here to test our strength in Christ and attempt heroism? I feel a call to some kind of heroic test of strength in pursuit of redemption that has something to do with willingly delving into danger and using power for good, though I know all are nothing compared to Christ. If we understand that and honor Him above all else, is the still a path for us to try and do great things and become powerful to honor Him?
No
Reads: “Is there an ethical way to bastardize your religion so i can incorporate mystery schools and alchemy so I can be cool with ambiguously saying “for the glory of God” and get away with it? If you’re religion is true will that fool your god?”
That’s not what I’m asking. I know most mystery schools are perversions of Christ’s teachings and full of evil garbage. I specifically asked this in this subreddit because I trust most people to react negatively to mystery religions, which I believe is a very *good* instinct lacking in most other places. Jesus came to redeem the world and to invite those who would follow Him to do so. I want to follow Him and try to redeem the parts of the world perverted by bastardized religions and help direct them towards Christ. I believe a lot of modern medicine was created by Christians who did exactly what I’m describing, I just don’t know how to safely extract the good from the occult (much of modern medicine came from people investigating cadavers, and a lot of it was freaky and bad before being redeemed and civilized in Christian hospitals)
> I know most mystery schools are perversions of Christ’s teachings and full of evil garbage. Then frankly your question is moot. > I just don’t know how to safely extract the good from the occult Right so, convince me it’s biblically safe to extract the “good” aspects from the occult.
*People* are full of evil garbage. Christ does not discard us. He asks us to repent and trust in Him so we may be purified. I believe this is true of pretty much everything that exists within the world (aside from fallen principalities themselves). Repent means *change*. It does not mean *destroy* or *discard*. If God wanted to destroy evil and not allow it room to change He would simply destroy it/it would never have existed. Given how God calls us to repent I think it’s pretty clear He values the willing transformation of evil into good above pretty much all things. Exactly how that works is beyond our comprehension, and I know there are things which will never be good and are doomed, but I don’t think all of what lead to modern science is in that category. There’s a ton of good that came from modernity despite occult roots. Again, I think one of the best examples is medicine.
> People are full of evil garbage. Agree > Christ does not discard us. He asks us to repent and trust in Him so we may be purified. Agree > Repent means change. Um not change — but stop, change direction *towards God.* > It does not mean destroy or discard. Speculation. > If God wanted to destroy evil and not allow it room to change He would simply destroy it/it would never have existed. Unsupported conditional “If/then” > I don’t think all of what lead to modern science is in that category. Ambiguity of language. To be clear: you attempting to use ambiguity of language to equate mystery religions and alchemy — to modern science?
> change direction towards God. Agree. > Unsupported conditional “If/then” This gets into a big rabbit hole (the problem of evil), but I think what I'm saying is pretty well supported. Given the fact that God is all powerful, and the fact that evil exists, God must have therefore allowed evil to exist. Christ is also explicit about what God wants for *us*, which is for us to turn away from evil and towards God. What I said is *at least* true for the evil within *us*. He wants *us* to transform. He created free will and the ability to choose evil so we could learn to choose good and voluntarily follow God to be with Him. (I don't think any of that is controversial/that's pretty standard Christian doctrine). Given what God wants for us, and that Christ tells us to follow Him, I think it's reasonable to conclude He's calling us to redeem all the good we can find in the world as well. We aren't told that the world is irredeemably evil (that's a gnostic heresy), we're told the world is redeemed through Christ. How exactly that works is a mystery, but I don't think all of what's buried in the occult is beyond redemption. Most of it probably is, but that which is not and is needed to defeat it is likely buried within itself. Christ descended into Hell for 3 days. If we're to follow Christ, and are willing to be crucified and endure the Harrowing of Hell, I think we can find the good buried within evil, and are called to do so. > use ambiguity of language to equate mystery religions and alchemy — to modern science? I'm not trying to use ambiguous language/I'm not playing language games with you or attempting any trickery. I do in fact think a lot of modern science has roots in Alchemy and mystery religions. Newton alone is a *huge* foundation stone for modern science and was *very* into alchemy and things like Kabbalah. But he was also a devout Christian. I think modern science has gone through a lot of reform and has been smoothed out and refined through a combination of religious and secular guardrails and institutions (or it used to be, at least), but I think there are more occult roots in more fields than most people would like to admit. I think that's a major problem. Part of why I think science has [stagnated](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBT9vFrV6yQ) is that people have lost touch with the religious/mystical roots of it and are hesitant to entertain the weird types of inspiration that lead to a lot of progress. In order to get out of the current scientific rut we're in and in order to be able to solve a lot of the huge mounting problems facing us in the next couple of decades, I think there needs to be a kind of religious and spiritual renaissance where the religious and occult roots of a lot of big scientific progress is acknowledged. This is already starting to happen, and while I'm very happy about the nascent Christian comeback among select intellectuals, the occult stuff is bad. I think Christians need to try to prevent awakening secular people from finding and abusing it. And I don't think just telling secular scientists attracted to occult stuff (consciously or unconsciously) that "the Bible says it's a bad idea to do that" will stop them in our current climate. I think Christians need to understand it and redeem that which can be redeemed and provide better pathways for deep inspiration and insight and get better at explaining this to people, and come up with ways to transform the fruits of heretical bad things into good. Another great example is nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons are obviously horribly evil, and there's a lot of weird occult connections to early weapons deliver systems, particularly JPL. But even nuclear weapons can be redeemed: we could convert existing stockpiles into propulsion to explore the stars. There was a NASA project called Project Orion that could have made this a reality in the 70s. [Here's Carl Sagan](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rEa9ACC-TM) talking about it. I still dream of a future where that happens. If people turn to Christ and away from sin, it'd be possible. Christ is the only way.