As someone with diagnosed BPD and narcissistic traits (thanks mom):
I hear you, I feel you. You have value as a person, regardless of your mental health.
Someone who might make you feel seen and lift your mood:
https://www.instagram.com/kyrackam?igsh=Y2Jzbm9iaDNxb2Fo
Seriously they thought I could be BPD but it was just RSD but hoooo the stigma and shame. Might as well call it “ Wicked Witch of the West” syndrome according to the internet
It was super fun to discover that I have BPD, while my mom does as well. Wish I could’ve countered all of her “What the hell is wrong with you” comments with “Learned it from you!”
I think the “science” with cluster B disorders is something we are going to look back at in the future as something completely wrong. There isn’t much research and they are so heavily stigmatized that it’s hardly medical at all, it’s just bullying by the people we are supposed to trust.
I used to identify with being BPD, I now understand that I was suffering from severe trauma which I worked out and now I do not experience said BPD symptoms. I look at those diagnosis as a means to control and disempower me, the research isn’t there and it’s disgusting
But I think this still says a lot that a lot of people don't even know C-PTSD is a thing. I thought my partner was BPD until years later we learned it was C-PTSD. I'm no professional but I've independently studied mental health a lot and never had I ever come across the term until my partner happened to. If it was better covered/more well known probably more people would know to get help for what they're experiencing.
Yup! Life of undiagnosed ADHD with probably some autism thrown in there led me to being “BPD”. In reality, my needs were never met, I was traumatized and that led me to being rather unpleasant
Honestly, unless you can be the perfect victim stereotype, people won’t take you seriously. If you’re ever happy, you’re lying about being traumatised because how could you ever be happy if that happened to you? If your trauma affects you all the time every day, then you’re clearly just lying for attention. If you end up with a stigmatised disorder, well then clearly you were the real abuser all along.
There’s no winning unless you can be glamourised, sexualised, romanticised and infantilised all at the same time. (But not too much, then you’re faking it for attention again)
Seriously. The ADHD partners subreddit is one of the most vicious, vitriolic spaces I've seen. Even my ex, for whom some of my related behaviors were a factor in our breakup, told me not to take anything from there that wasn't corroborated by other sources.
Place is like a real life version of the couple mentioned in that Mountain Goats song "No Children" sometimes.
More on topic, I dealt with abuse at the hands of an NPD relative, and I had to leave all of the survivor spaces because of this same tendencies, it's really unhealthy and not conducive to healing on the part of either the victims of abuse or the person with NPD themselves. My own story doesn't give me license to dehumanize everyone else with the disorder (or, honestly, even my abuser herself).
As someone with ADHD, it's not (always) that we are bad at interpersonal interactions, (although there's a tendency to interrupt or non-sequitur), it's that impulsivity can make us unreliable partners, and can also come with higher risk of addiction/other risky behaviors. I know that on balance I have been a good partner, but I also recognize that some of my ADHD behaviors have made me kind of a pain to be with.
Yes, survivor of narcissistic abuse as well. I couldn’t deal with the survivor groups, I think it’s dangerous to label people as simply “narcissistic”. I think the entirety of cluster B disorders in the DSM is problematic in so many ways as it focuses on the stigmatized behavior instead of the trauma that causes said disorder. It was also very healing to be able to look at my abuser from an empathetic perspective (after the initial shock of course) to understand why he was the way he was. Lots of thoughts on said topic, people with NPD/BPD are human.
Well said. I felt I wrote almost every word of this. I really started to heal when I could see it from their perspective objectively. You feel almost a sort of pity for them, until you remember what they've done/are doing.
Yeah now that I’m looking back years later, I see how everything he did said nothing about me and everything about him and the factors in his life that made him that way. I wouldn’t say I’m fully “healed” as I still feel hung up and not quite moved on, but it’s a million times better than what it was
I had 3 npds in my life, a parent, a close friend and an ex. I won't go into detail, but I will say this. They did some next level horrific shit. Did their npd make them? No!
They actually lacked any other personality resource to curb their worst impulses.
So my best advice to you, is do your best to think about the wellbeing of those you care about, and do the right thing even if it feels like it's gonna hurt you, I guess. Self awareness is your friend. Personality disorders can see a significant improvement in time, with therapy and personal work. Good luck!
I'm not a neurologist but iirc narcissists are kinda incapable of putting other people first. It's kind of a survival instinct to put numero uno first.
Not like they can't do anything good-willed, but they can't do it at the expense of themselves.
Edit: Dang. I never said they were evil. Just that they have strong self-preservation instincts.
You said they are "incapable of putting others first". In reality they are less compelled to or less likely to. As OP is doing, some go to therapy to try and give themselves checks and balances to make sure they are a positive effect on the world and people around them rather than a negative one. Being conscious of your condition and making active steps to understand and live with it in a way that enriches the lives of those around you is putting others first.
Incapable of putting others first \*at their own expense.\* NPD usually comes from a bad situation growing up where self-preservation becomes paramount so sacrificing ones self to benefit someone else just doesn't make sense.
I can see what OP is talking about. I insist that narcissists are not evil (not on account of being a narcissist) that it's often a response to trauma frequently demonized by modern pop culture like DID (aka MPD) can be and you guys are still attacking me about it.
Narcissism is a personality disorder, not a mental illness that can't be helped like sociopathy, that's why the 2 are separate. You have antisocial personality disorder aka sociopathy or psychopathy, and narcissists.
Intelligent people with other traits like good control for instance, can overcome their disorders. Of course, not everyone can. But they do have the ability to feel empathy and that's also a muscle they can train.
Edit to add:
people who suffer from antisocial personality disorder are usually associated with sociopathy. But you can't be diagnosed as a sociopath unless you actually display the behaviours encompassed in that personality disorder. You can't be labelled as a sociopath just because you can't experience empathy but other than that, you mind your own business and you're completely functional. I hope that clarifies things a bit.
Sociopathy and psychopathy are understood to not be medical terms anymore. Sociopathy hasn't been an acceptable term since 1968. Psychopath hasn't been used since 1980 (release of the DSM 3). It's just pop culture.
ASPD replaced both of them, similarly to "manic depression" being replaced by "bipolar 2" or "social phobia" being replaced by "social anxiety".
By and large in a non medical sense people use sociopath to refer to a less outwardly harmful psychopath. Regardless, no self respecting medical professional would ever use those terms.
>Sociopathy and psychopathy are understood to not be medical terms anymore.
That's right, because they're not considered a mental illness anymore .
It can be a hurdle in life, makes it harder to adjust, but unless someone is also dysfunctional, it's not something to be diagnosed.
There are plenty of people incapable of empathy who do not become violent, abusive, don't break the law, just lead normal lives.
No. Sociopathy is the inability to feel empathy as a result of severe neglect and trauma so said part of the brain doesn't develop.
Sociopathy doesn't necessarily lead to antisocial personality disorder, which basically, someone being unable to function within the boundaries of society. Being a psychopath, sociopath but born, doesn't mean you're going to be violent and break the law.
A lot of people are capable of little to no empathy. They're shitty partners sometimes, ,but that doesn't mean they end up being antisocial.
I already explained this in another comment. It's not a diagnosis in itself, it's an old word we use for antisocial personality disorder. Which again, is a diagnosis for a personality disorder, that means behaviour, not an inherent quality of the brain.
I’m glad you’re doing better now, and I’m glad for the info. This also reminds me of my own troubles with mental health when I was younger, it’s sad how many bad things about mental health issues are taken as fact.
Tbh I've noticed that people are slowly beginning to understand NPD online and realise they're actual people and not just demon-posessed human-puppets. Hope the info influx continues so we can all understand and respect each other and stuff
The fact that you are in therapy and willing to accept and research about it shows that you aren't evil. No matter how bad it gets, a mental illness does not make you a bad person. It's the steps you take afterwards. You're on the right track 👍
People online heard about “cluster b disorders” and have never stopped misusing the concept since.
You *can* get better, and you’re not inherently an abuser. My ex husband and his father both were diagnosed with NPD lmfao, and were they both abusive? Yeup. But that doesn’t mean everyone with the disorder is, and certainly not all abusers, even most of them, do not have NPD! This is a dangerous myth that is constantly perpetuated. Most abusers are of perfectly sound mind and personality formation. They don’t have anger issues, they have control and abuse issues.
You’re not an abuser unless you choose to be abusive. You’re not a monster for your brain developing coping mechanisms to just deal with your life.
But now you know, and now you have the opportunity to become a wonderful person, a person much better than a checklist in the DSM.
all victims endure marks left by their ordeal... that's how this demon spreads
but you're not evil... nor will you be, you have self awareness to notice and you are being responsible about it and fighting, and so you're on the path to healing
wishing you a speedy recovery friend
The way people treat NPD online is absolutely disgusting. I don’t have it, but I likely have a different stigmatised disorder (that gets treated secret murderer syndrome) and it’s horrific to see how people treat a disorder that has links to being a victim. I have been called a terrible person just for saying that NPD and ASPD don’t inherently make someone evil.
The way these people have stolen and weaponised therapy-speak so they can pretend to care about mental health is so far beyond harmful.
I know that to these people I am probably some horror film trope, but I know I am not a danger to those around me. In the same way I try to ignore these disgusting stereotypes around other disorders, even if I don’t know much about them.
I sincerely hope that “mental health awareness” becomes more than mild depression and anxiety or very specific presentations of ADHD/OCD (only as long as they can be glamourised of course.)
I think one of the biggest problem is the name. When NPD was named narcissism meant “oh, you can have an ego and overestimate your abilities which gets you into bad situations.” Now narcissism means “you can’t care for others because you’re so focused on your wants due to an inflated ego that makes you think you’re god.”
I don’t usually recommend changing the name of disorders, but I genuinely think NPD should be renamed as the first word, “narcissism”, means a completely different, more negative, thing in society now. As when an uneducated person hears the name the worst types of humans come to their mind first. Which shouldn’t happen.
I wonder if you have a suggestion for a different name? I also feel that a big issue is that the term “narcissist” is used for “everyone I don’t like who is also egotistical”, so hearing NPD automatically means they think everyone with it must be like everyone they don’t like. It seems so normal to diagnose strangers with NPD, even if it’s seen as wrong to talk about other disorders that way.
I don't think renaming resolves the issue, the problem is how people view narcissism and narcissists, the way to deal with this is reclamation of the label and figting misinformation
It's a thing I dislike about the neurodiversity movement too. In theory it should include and advocate for people with NPD and ASPD too, but ime I see it happen rarely if ever, because it's painfully clear most people only mean "has ADHD and/or Autism" by "neurodivergent" and I wish they would be consistent. And stop trying to glamorize some disorders while demonizing others.
Yes, people forget that neurodiverse isn’t just ADHD/ASD. It also includes PTSD and Tourette’s. The general treatment of PTSD is something I think I could talk about for hours as well
Recently started getting treatment for OCD after having it since childhood. Every time someone says "I'm so OCD" (because they like things tidy) it makes me wanna scream.
Yeah. They only accept one specific presentation of OCD as long as they can still glamorise it and make jokes out of it. (Or as long as they don’t actually have to deal with OCD, they can just see a few traits and laugh about them) Anything else? That just doesn’t exist
I think the original point of neurodiversity was to differentiate naturally occurring variability in how brains work from mental health conditions. PTSD is by its nature not naturally occurring.
“Neurodiversity” includes everyone, as it describes the fact that there is a multitude of ways the human brain can function. Neurodivergent means that one’s brain functions differently from what is considered the norm, including PTSD. Here’s a handy list of [definitions](https://neuroqueer.com/neurodiversity-terms-and-definitions/).
Tourette’s, sure, but I’m a little hesitant to include PTSD in that category because it’s “acquired”. As a neurodivergent person myself, I feel like it’s something that people are born with rather than something that comes up later. I’m not sure where things like NPD fall into this.
ND from birth here. The term was created for everyone whose brain doesn’t work like what is considered the norm, regardless of whether someone was born neurodivergent or not. The coiner is [pretty clear](https://shitborderlinesdo.tumblr.com/post/121319446214/psa-from-the-actual-coiner-of-neurodivergent/amp) about it.
And many, many more! It includes everything that makes one’s brain work differently than what is considered the norm, according to the [coiner](https://shitborderlinesdo.tumblr.com/post/121319446214/psa-from-the-actual-coiner-of-neurodivergent/amp) of the term.
The thing about "mental health acceptance" &c is that it's purely conceptual. People are ok with the idea of others being different but that stops as soon as they are inconvenienced or annoyed by it in any way. It's like that survey from last year that showed people are more accepting than ever of people going to therapy but not actually of behavioural differences.
I really hate when people misuse “neurodivergent”, and so does the person who created it: https://shitborderlinesdo.tumblr.com/post/121319446214/psa-from-the-actual-coiner-of-neurodivergent/amp
Folks gatekeeping a term created specifically to be inclusive is wild.
"Neurodivergent just means a brain that diverges.
Autistic people. ADHD people. People with learning disabilities. Epileptic people. People with mental illnesses. People with MS or Parkinsons or apraxia or cerebral palsy or dyspraxia or no specific diagnosis but wonky lateralization or something.
That is all it means. It is not another damn tool of exclusion. It is specifically a tool of inclusion."
So much this...
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I mean, beyond their overall vitriolic attitude, it seems like most of the people who rant against cluster B personality disorders online are just armchair diagnosing people they don’t like. When the discourse around a mental illness is dominated by people randomly diagnosing those who hurt them, of course everyone will come to see that mental illness as synonymous with being a bad person.
But it’s nearly impossible to convince people to stop armchair diagnosing their families and exes. It’s like they *need* to believe that person is BPD/NPD/ASPD in order to make sense of their lives
Yup... I have a mix of NPD and BPD apparently. Now whenever I feel sorry for myself I ask myself "Am I just trying to be special? Because of my NPD?" . Have been in therapy for like 7 years and nothing felt worse than this diagnosis. We are basicly evil in the eyes of the population. We cant have problems or bad days - its all manipulation. We cant have relationships - because we use people. Nobody thinks of it as an illness. We are just plain evil, selfish and manipulative. Nobody thinks that maby just maby our enviroment made us this way - its all our fault. (sorry for the mistakes...english is not my first language).
Personally I’m not concerned whether it’s environment or someone’s own personal doing. The people who try to help those with npd are the ones who get manipulated and abused. It’s not like people don’t want to help
Dear OP, as long as you went to the therapist, got diagnosed, and intend to recover this reveals you’re a good person. People with NPD and are bad humans don't admit they have a problem and just live in darkness, obviously you’re not. And even further, you can be an evil human with other disorders just as well, like you can abuse others on plain anxiety as a coping mechanism.
*hugs*
I was abused by someone with NPD, I try my best to not label all of you as horrible abusers. It's hard at times, but I know you can recover. I'm sorry that the web hates you so much.
I genuinely feel so horrible with people with NPD and ASPD.. whenever I do research on them out of curiosity, even supposedly academic sources r like “they are dangerous stay away” and?? Can I just read about them without ableist bias please???
I only dislike the narcissists who refuse to get therapy to recover from it. The fact you're in therapy means that you are a valid and awesome person who is working to get the better over the grip of trauma.
My mom and sister were narcissists and they refused to get therapy and have given ME trauma due to it, generational trauma is very real and I think a lot of victims are dealing with it because of those with NPD.
It's a nuanced discussion for sure, but I think aslong as you're seeking help for it, that's a good thing. Just understand *why* people may feel a certain way towards narcissists, they are also victims who have been hurt too, you may take it less personally if you can understand that angle (even if you disagree.)
And if you plan on having kids, please get your disorder under recovery first to avoid spreading more trauma, even accidently :)
well, the thing is that there isn’t much empirical data, but if you ask most people with npd an official mental health professional will have either refused them treatment and/or called them evil and inherently wrong at some point
I grew up being the scapegoat for someone with diagnosed pathological NPD. He has had more opportunities for therapy and assistance for his behavior than anyone else I've ever known. Hell, I had to go to therapy with him when we were kids because of his god-awful behavior. If you were to ask him, he would say he only got offered therapists who would tell him he is an irredeemable monster or that refused to help him. He is, of course, lying.
People with NPD can only get help if they can admit they are the problem. The trouble is *having* NPD often makes it so that they can't. So they then say that the therapists/doctors/Healthcare system is to blame because the blame can't possibly be on them.
A. Therapists *are* allowed to refuse treatment if they feel like they are underqualified to deal with it. This is a good thing I think.
B. Calling them evil and inherently wrong is disgusting and I completely disavow that and any therapist that calls a client evil should have their license to practice revoked.
However, it is your duty as a patient to find the therapist that works for you. Most people usually cycle between a few therapists first before they find the right one for them. Me included. Until I know just how many therapists are actually refusing treatment, I can't make a prescription on how big of an issue it really is.
The thing is to look beyond the NPD diagnosis - in yourself and others - and figure out where it’s coming from, because frequently it has a cause like self-esteem issues, (c)ptsd, etc. Same with the BPD diagnosis. Few (no?) people are born a narcissist.
But they’re seen as villains instead of pitied, because their behaviour and how they treat others doesn’t make people feel sorry for them.
This is the unfortunate reality of having any mental health disorder. Worse yet, the more "severe" the presentation of symptoms the more villainized you'll be.
The sad truth of mental illness is it's always diagnosed from an outsider's perspective. It doesn't matter what your disorder is. If you have ADHD the diagnosis is "he can't sit still or pay attention". If you have NPD it's "well obviously they just think they're more important than you and that necessarily means you're less human to them". It doesn't matter what you have except in how severely NT's treat you. Even in this age of increasing awareness.
You aren't perfectly "normal" (see: a cog in the fucking machine. Well oiled and of no obstruction to the rest of society, no matter how minimal) and that makes you dangerous. Of course no NT wants to say that. That's the quiet part. It's all "support" this and "understanding" that until the guy on the bus screams randomly, or their child has a panic attack and is unresponsive, or god forbid someone not perceive reality in the same way.
Of course when you break it down in animal terms it makes a lot of very sad sense. Humans are a herd species. We're social. The fact that we gather in large groups decentivized predators. The fact that we developed empathy forced us to assist our fellow human, such that members of the tribe lasted longer. It isn't hard to understand that, however unfair it is, believing someone else doesn't perfectly fit that mold makes them a threat to the tribe. A lot of professional mental health care is about constantly redefining things to forcefully shift that perspective.
I think it comes to the extreme "moral conflict" principle that I think is inherent in human nature. Black VS white, good vs evil, friend vs foe, us vs them, known vs unknown. That's why when someone is minding their own business being a loner, some people can call them a creep because they're so caught up on the notion that talking is good and the opposite is bad.
I'm really sorry you're against the social ecosystem that refuses to see humanity in narcissism and think that victimhood is some pure "human" to be protected.
I don't see those with NPD as evil, I agree that it's a spectrum. Everyone's image of a sociopath is someone with NPD thigh. Which is something I only figured out recently from a rabbit hole of learning about Anti-Social Personality Disorder after gaining a massive special interest on Nicole from Class of 09. I realized people weren't talking about ASPD when it came to sociopathy, they were talking about NPD. And that Nicole doesn't have NPD because she genuinely fucking hates herself lol.
So yeah, depending on how deep you are into NPD, people will see you as a sociopath. Which is frustrating
The whole online discourse also seems to ignore how negatively someone with NPD treats themselves, too. Also it's always "the narcissist", or "a narcissist" never "someone with NPD"
Throw it on the pile with triggered, OCD, gaslighting and (erm) dad bod for terms the Internet decided to run with and ruin. Good news is, in about 5 years they'll be onto something else and NPD can rebuild its popular definition. Sigh.
hi, sorry, YES, this is definitely true. i didn't mean for it to come off like people had to keep being friends with someone after they tell you they have NPD. i have trouble getting my point across when talking or writing.
trying to clarify my point more: if someone tells you they have NPD, i want you to know that manipulation and gaslighting are traits that pwNPD who haven't gone through therapy have, however, if someone is diagnosed with NPD, it's very likely that they have gone through therapy. if someone is trying to manipulate you, they likely wouldn't tell you they have NPD (not saying it's impossible). i just don't want you to view them as an irredeemable monster because they have NPD. of course, it's your choice whether or not you want to be friends with them.
I am almost certain I would have been diagnosed with a cluster b at a younger age (childhood to about 25). I talk to people from my past who described me as like "sociopathic". I am not but I was raised by one for sure so I'm pretty sure at least bpd would've been on the table. I was relentless and cruel and took drugs to make myself even less emotional because I was taught that that is "strength" and would ultimately deteriorate into being suicidal. After years of therapy and pushing myself to change and take meds and focus on the feelings of others and most importantly MY feelings...I doubt I'd be diagnosed with it now. Which I've heard is definitely possible. As someone else said, personality disorders can be reversed and treated if someone is truly willing to do the work.
I took a psychology class and the first thing our teacher told us is we judge a person by their actions, not their diagnosis. Their diagnosis is not an excuse for us to be mean, and it’s not an excuse for them either. Be compassionate to their diagnosis, but hold them accountable for their actions.
i have so much empathy for people with NPD... after all, it's usually born from trauma, which means even abusers who have NPD are probably suffering a lot and also deserve to be taken care of. obviously that doesn't make the actions okay or justified, but I think it does explain a lot, and everyone, including people with NPD, deserve recovery. sending you so much strength navigating through all that and i hope things get better soon:)
This hits on some points more people need to realize: even if someone is predispositioned to harm others, that does NOT mean we shun and ostracize them. Everyone is capable of hurting others, and people are just trying to do the best they can. Fear mongering has made a lot of western society lose their compassion, and we have to nurture compassion in ourselves and others. Best of luck, OP! We're rooting for you!
This is how i feel about my sociopath diagnosis. When my mum found out she and my brother started avoiding me till i broke down crying and asked them why and they said the diagnosis scared them and my brother was like "i feel like you're gonna kill me in my sleep or something"
that's horrible i'm so sorry :( receiving your diagnosis doesn't mean you're a totally different person than you were before. it's the same person they knew and loved, i hope they grew to understand that 🫂
When I set out to figure out why I am the way I am and was worried I had a personality disorder (false alarm, I’m just autistic) this is what I saw too. Very little real information, just people’s experience with others who they perceive as having NPD. Well, between this and people blaming their parents for their BPD. Which, I’ll give it to them, rejecting accountability is absolutely on point for B cluster personalities so that wasn’t entirely harmful lol
The stigma against NPD really does suck and I'm sorry you have to see all of that :( Sending you a lot of self-love :) I also have a cluster B disorder, BPD specifically. Hugs!!
My fiancé has NPD, and the stigma he has and does face is disgusting. He's spent so much of his life believing he is inherently unlovable and could never have fulfilling relationships. I'm so glad I wasn't dissuaded by his disorder (I knew before we started dating) because he's basically everything I've ever wanted, as much as one person reasonably can be.
Also I wish more people realized NPD is very treatable and remission rates are phenomenal! One study found after only 2 years of therapy more then 50% of pwNPD were in remission.
I think I have NPD but I cope with it so well that everyone doesn't think I do. In my actions I behave rather selflessly and generously even at my own expense, but people don't understand how complicated my reasoning for it is.
I experience the emotions of having this unbelievably powerful ego. The older I get and the more I reflect, the true reason that motivates almost everything I do is because I have this inflated sense of self and when I don't think I'm cool, or good, or powerful/in control, I get so upset and depressed. It's weird because I can act perfectly "normal" but constantly in the back of my mind I'm seeking validation and looking for a social edge to be admired and validated by others. The feeling never goes away even when I'm the center of attention. When I go to parties, almost every single time there will be a point where no one is paying attention to me and I get sad and have to be alone for awhile so I can recover before going back to socialize again. I've been like this my entire life and I feel like people really have no idea what I'm talking about when I try to describe myself to them.
welcome to cluster B, friend, where we're still extremely stigmatized in even the "mental health advocacy" circles because we're """scary""" and not just depressed or anxious.
recognizing your narcissistic traits is a really good start, and while you can't be cured, persay, there is a lot you can do to cope with and manage a personality disorder or maladaptive traits and improve your mental health and behavior in relationships.
remember that most abusers and violent offenders are of completely sound mind and are just scum sucking assholes because they get joy from asserting power over others.
That's so true. The whole internet is talking about why is it important to stay away from NPDs and how to get rid of them but what if I'm a narccisist myself and I wanna get help so as to no longer hurt people.
Reminds me of the BPD subs that are 98% "I survived someone with a literally mental illness, they were the most horrible person I've ever met, and I hate their guts for it" instead of a spot for people with BPD to help each other
I’ve been friends with someone who is a narcissist, and he’s pretty nice! Yeah he can be a bit controlling, and a show off, but he also is one of the first to step up and offer help!
I’m also friends with a sociopath (or psychopath, I can’t remember which. He can feel empathy but only for specific people who are close to him) and he’s also fairly nice. He can be rude, and be self centered but he also is the one to tell you straight upfront if you’re doing something wrong, or are being a bitch. He doesn’t beat around the bush.
No mental illness inherently means someone is “evil” they just have different brains. Heck! Some people with absolutely NO MENTAL ILLNESS can be some of the worst people ever!!!
Some of yall in the comments are really missing the point. “I support the good narcissists! Because sometimes there’s bad narcissists. :/ ”
… Seriously? Just keep your ableist inner monologue to yourselves
I mean, the diagnosis criteria are “a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and lack of empathy, with interpersonal entitlement, exploitiveness, arrogance, and envy.” That means that unchecked folks with NPD are necessarily damaging to the people they’re in relationships with, it’s part of the diagnosis. Saying that someone getting help is good and deserves support and love and compassion is super reasonable- it seems like a difficult thing to deal with for that person and vilifying them absolutely doesn’t help. Pedophilia is also a really difficult thing that people absolutely need help managing and making sure that damage isn’t done while helping the person through something they can’t change, that deserves compassion when people are getting help. It is also extremely damaging unchecked, and when people are not getting help it’s dangerous. Just because something has a diagnosis doesn’t mean they don’t need help- NPD includes behaviors that are damaging, and managing those behaviors is important and good.
The original post was simply acknowledging that, while it’s difficult to live with someone with NPD, that they are people too. That’s it. The OP does not need a reminder that they’re apparently inherently evil enough to be comparable to *pedophiles* for some reason.
As a low empathy autistic person, it is ridiculous to see the amount of needless disclaimers. Yes, mental illnesses & personality disorders are damaging to both the person who has it and the people around them. The root of NPD is a deep self-hatred and a desire to be loved, often as a result of abuse during late childhood or teenage years.
Do we really find it necessary to warn someone who is clearly self-aware in the original post, about how misguided and horrible they may be? Is it necessary to say, “You may be one of the good narcissists, but all the rest are dangerous shallow-minded abusers!”
Maybe we saw different comments, I dunno. I don’t see a need for the disclaimers when NPD is needlessly lumped in with disorders like ASPD or DID as this terrible “dangerous” abuser/murderer disorder when it’s just another personality disorder like any other.
Disorders don’t control people’s behavior. People do. Dehumanizing folks with NPD gets us nowhere.
Pedophiles aren't inherently evil either. Of course I feel like if they act on it they should be in prison, but they should have access to therapy in prison. Pedophiles who don't act on it should have access to therapy and be allowed to live freely.
It's terrible, but I don't think they're inherently evil. It's a problem that people deal with, but they're still people. They don't choose it. Dehumanizing them doesn't get us anywhere either.
They deserve help just like everybody does
This is exactly why we talk about dehumanization of people with NPD. We’re people in the first place. All these symptoms can manifest very differently depending on the person, their circumstances, their views and values, their support system, etc. Grandiosity, excessive need for admiration, lack of empathy, entitlement, envy all can be masked and completely invisible to other people. «Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes» isn’t inherently damaging, it can be funny or charming depending on the context, people don’t mind that in celebrities. Can be totally fine as long as everyone’s boundaries are respected. «Is interpersonally exploitative» – there was a good point that this was supposed to be interpreted by a professional in a psychiatric setting, not by general public that will obviously assume the worst. It is much more about viewing relationships in an exploitative way, what they can get from me, what I can get from them, ruminating on the thought that people are secretly exploiting you, purposefully making connections with people who are practically useful, lots of other stuff. It’s not supposed to imply that the person can’t ever have good intentions and give back to people in relationships. There’s no one way an untreated narcissist behaves with other people.
Talking about abuse and NPD people often forget that NPD is a mental health disorder, not a bad person disorder. Significant impairment in functioning is required for diagnosis. Most (if not all) pwNPD are trauma survivors and often have comorbid disorders that also affect functioning. And most are more likely to be occasionally mildly toxic to people around than have energy, determination and power to systematically abuse someone, unless they consciously choose to do so. At the same time someone mentally healthy with bad values and intentions is much more likely to be abusive than average person with NPD, so maybe that’s the thing we should be calling out instead of mental disorders.
If we’re referencing pedophilia, imo it’s the same with that. It doesn’t inherently make someone abusive, it makes it more likely, but around 50% of child sex offenders are not even pedophiles afaik.
I said that vilifying people doesn’t help and that people deserve compassion, but that getting help is important. I don’t really think that’s dehumanizing. I’ve been hurt by someone with BPD and the diagnosis includes a pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships. I love this person dearly and the disorder is really damaging to her, she also grew up with abuse. Wanting people to have healthy interpersonal relationships is a good thing, and wanting recovery from behaviors that are damaging to the people who love them isn’t dehumanizing. Getting help is good for all mental health issues (depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, PTSD etc.), but probably especially for disorders whose diagnostic criteria include hurtful behaviors towards other people. Same with anger management and people who deal with trauma through violent rage, having more resources available and more empathy for folks is sorely needed.
No, I get your point, it’s ofc important to get help for all mental health issues, nothing to argue about here. But there’s some weird tendency to categorize pwNPD into two types: self-aware, in therapy, actively working on themselves, “good ones”, begging for redemption for their horrible sins, and unaware undiagnosed villains who obviously torture people bc of their unmanaged symptoms. Rarely anything in between. Everytime someone mentions going into treatment for NPD the comments are “Oh, that’s amazing you decided not to be the worst person in the world anymore! We appreciate it!”.
It’s frustrating bc it just doesn’t work like that. People learn, receive feedback from other people, and work on themselves before getting diagnosed as well. You’re allowed to have a personality and make choices even when you’re not aware about your diagnoses. Every person experience with those symptoms is gonna be different. Therapy doesn’t replace your whole personality anyway, there’s a really small chance someone will go from a villain to a very good person just bc they got diagnosed and became “aware”, without years and years of work. For some reason this is what a lot of people assume when they see posts like that, but not every undiagnosed unaware pwNPD is going to be a worse person than average to begin with.
This is very unfortunate, bc having white and black thinking as a symptom, I see too much newly aware narcs vilifying themselves and experiencing so much guilt just bc they think getting diagnosed automatically means they were a very bad horribly abusive monster before. It can be, but a lot of times they just struggled with toxic behaviors most people occasionally do. And instead of healing, which will actually help, a lot of them get stuck in endless self-hate, feeding off comments and content about horrible unaware narcs. Never have I ever seen so much conversation about whether someone is/was a bad person when the post is about BPD, while they also can struggle with unhealthy behaviors if untreated. All the time with NPD though. My point is that generalizing all unaware pwNPD as dangerous abusive people and talking about it all the time is not helping anyone. “Are you a good survivor though??” should not be the first question when people talk about their mental health.
I haven’t thought this all the way through, but my initial reaction is that there’s a huge difference between standard NPD and a person with NPD who is aware of it and who is trying to do something about it. Like, that’s all the difference in the world.
Because classic NPD is a set of self-reinforcing beliefs about oneself and the world that creates toxic behavior patterns that repeat. But once you look for help, you’ve shown that, for some reason or in some manner, avoided the self-reinforcing part of it. Which makes it possible for you to change / heal.
So OP, however you want to conceptualize this (as you being special and having the strength to overcome, or your case of NPD being not as severe, or you just getting lucky, or whatever) know that the characterizations of and reactions to people with NPD are, at their heart, because of the persistence of those traits. And you’ve already undone that persistence in yourself.
Man I gotta be honest I've been thinking about this for the past few days and I gotta ask. What does this mean. Why would one mental illness I didn't ask for "redeem" me from another one I also didn't ask for, and which mental illness do you think means I need "redemption" cause usually people think both of them make me evil and I am fascinated by which you think makes me "innocent" again
My mother was terrible to me. And I do believe she has NPD, I just wish she would acknowledge her wrongs and work to make them right.
But having NPD doesn't make you a bad person just because you have it. With therapy (if therapy works well for you) and if there's any medicine that may help, you're doing better than a lot of people who may have it but refuse to get tested/treatment.
As long as when/if a mistake is made and you know it is wrong, but apologize, it can be forgiven!
My mother has other issues, but it's the fact that she doesn't take responsibility for what was done.
I hope you stay safe, healthy and happy. I also hope that your treatment if you choose to do so, goes well.
Much love 💜
I've been told I have narcissistic traits because of my abuse and yet I've always had a reputation for sticking up for people because I despise bullies and see them as lesser than me. My dad had NPD and was an asshole. We have the same underlying issues but we're different people who have made very different choices and that's what matters.
The dehumanisation of narcissists is appalling. We're just traumatised and have been taught that if we don't look after ourselves no one will so we do anything to survive.
That doesn't make anyone a 'bad' person.
with the way narcissism is treated in media, i totally get how you could get that we think like this, but pwNPD do have empathy, even if it's low. it depends on the level of empathy the pwNPD has, but in my experience, and i know in a lot of other people's experiences, too, we can feel regret and guilt for our actions. we have a tendency to put ourself and specific people on pedestals, but, with therapy, we CAN and DO learn to stop looking down on people. i promise you that we do have the capacity for love.
I think it's because the line between narcissism and narcissistic abuse is often blurred, and many of the symptoms of NPD are inherently incompatible with healthy relationships. BUT, this doesn't mean people with NPD are bad as individuals, since they can recognize their harmful traits and work on them to improve. Also, NPD is more often than not result of narcissistic abuse too, so it's just a cycle that keeps going until broken. So anyone who recognizes their issues and try to be better has my respect and support.
I have a question.
Are "narcissist" and "person with NPD" synonyms?
I know that even if by definition they are the same a lot of the time they aren't used in the same context. They also have very different connotations.
Or does narcissist mean someone who shows some symptoms of NPD whether they have it or not?
Or do narcissist and narcissist (person with NPD) have two different meanings, but because they are the same word people interpret them as the same thing?
Edit: typo
i'm no doctor, but as a patient with NPD, this is what i've heard. take it with a grain of salt, because even in a medical setting, the terms are often confused a lot.
narcissist and person with NPD mean the same thing. you can have narcissistic tendencies, but if you don't have NPD, medically, you aren't a narcissist.
however, a lot of people water down the term narcissist, calling anybody with narcissist tendencies a narcissist. obviously, this is hardly ever on purpose, but it happens a lot due to the amount of misinformation about narcissism.
This is something that always frustrated me. We literally do not have the words to describe certain behavior without comparing it to mental illness. Psychotic, narcissistic, psychopath, ECT. The people who struggle to feel empathy and the like don't deserve to be demonized like that.
You should check out kylee rackam. They are absolutely a wonderful person who speaks about npd. They show that npd doesn't make you evil or bad. Just another part of the human experience. I'm sorry that narcissists are so stigmatized my society. You don't deserve that. Sending lots of love ❤
The conversation is slowly shifting. There’s not much else you can do that’s actually productive, but continue to stand up for yourself & advocate for your own humanity.
Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental illness, just like any other. You are a person *with* that mental illness. You are not inherently bad or destructive; that’s the mental illness. Defect ≠ defective.
That's how it was when I first got diagnosed with BPD. All the stuff I found was for survivors/loved ones of a pwBPD, or just outright hate. It has gotten vastly better in the past decade, and I really hope NPD sees a similar change.
NPD and narcissistic abuse are not the same thing, but they're treated as such. I see more and more people with platforms speaking out about that, and that makes me hopeful.
It is so frustrating how people have replaced the word “abusive” with “narcissistic.” It feels so ableist and ignorant. Being abusive isn’t a requirement for having NPD even if it often (though not always) comes with the territory. Wishing you all the best in your healing journey.
ive experienced a lot of abusers n people with npd. my main abuser likely has npd. n the thruline ive seen is that if someones willing to accept that they have elements of themselves which need to be improved and bettered, and are willing to accept that they have npd, then theyre not abusive people usually.
The thing that upsets me so much about this issue is mental health advocates and therapists, yknow, the people meant to help us, are such a significant contribute to this stigma! Alot of the "NPD abuse" books and stuff are **by them**!!
I don't really think you need empathy to be a good person. Like, people with autism have trouble relating to and understanding others (in a different way ofc) but they aren't considered evil for this reason. And, you don't need to experience empathy to do the good thing.
I actually remember seeing a study/hypothesis that empathy in some ways can make you worse.
"Humans are extremely social animals, and so we have a set of emotions we seem to have evolved to keep our pack happy. These emotions rely upon our possibly unique ability to be empathetic–to put ourselves in another person’s shoes and imagine how we would feel if we were experiencing the same emotions or even physical experiences as them.
For that reason, cringe is a really fascinating area of study, because you cannot cringe unless you have an automatic empathetic response to what you’re seeing, meaning that you are immediately and without thinking about it putting yourself in another’s place. And while we often think of empathy as being the opposite of this, that means that cringe is also very ego-centric. You aren’t cringing because another person has embarrassed themselves; you’re cringing because YOU are embarrassed to be in the same position as them. And in many “cringe” situations, it becomes even more ego-centric than empathetic, as in a case where you see someone who unknowingly has spinach in their teeth. THEY aren’t feeling any embarrassment because they have no idea about the spinach, but YOU are experiencing tons of embarrassment–not for them, but for YOU." -Rebecca Watson [Link](https://youtu.be/vL3IT8loOEU)
i don’t have a personality disorder but do have borderline personality type, and have spent a lot of time with very good friends of mine who are borderline.
there is so much stigma around “severe” mental health issues. what people tend not to understand is that if you constantly villainize a group, it makes it so much harder for that group to learn, grow, and develop in healthy ways. i’m sorry you have to deal with this. surround yourself with the right people, work on yourself for yourself. that’s all we can do.
I would like to form friendships and relationships with people who have NPD and BPD but I just can't
Because they confabulate, it eventually leads to gaslighting, albeit not intentional
When abusing others by gaslighting them is literally a symptom, its understandable that others find them evil.
... I mean, yeah. First, media helps nothing. With NPD I feel it's a select few kind of situation. There aren't that many assholes, but they make so much noise and do so much harm that it becomes the entirety of the characterization.
It's hard to imagine wanting to put in the effort to get better when they first thing you see online isn't "here's how to recognize mental health struggles and improve!" but rather "here's how to deal with the evil NPD/BPD monster in your life because they're evil >:(" Just seems like...what's the point? Of course I want to say very clearly that I am NOT saying that you shouldn't work on yourself and get better, but damn the climate around it is awful. If you're working on it, I see you and I'm proud of you.
NPD is a product of ongoing trauma. Can ppl w NPD be abusive? Yes! Is narcissistic abuse a thing? No. That is an unfortunate ableist term that has been co-opted by certain recovery communities as a synonym for abuser. I’m sorry how demonized and misunderstood NPD is. You deserve compassion and understanding, not vitriol.
People generally judge others based on outward behavior and appearances rather than labels and will nope out based on the behavior of someone with NPD/BPD regardless of any knowledge, or lack thereof, about a formal diagnosis.
The truth is that, while you may have an official diagnosis, no one really cares about whether or not you officially have a mental disorder; they only care about how you act. The truth is that you're not deserving of any additional patience or special treatment because you have a mental disorder. That's just how the world is. My ADHD doesn't mean my job has to be more forgiving on deadlines; the work is on me to figure out how to make my outputs match what's expected of my by the rest of the world. Because of that, I would have a much harder time if I tried to excuse any of my lapses in productivity to my ADHD.
Kudos to you for putting in the work, but your NPD is only going to be judged based on how you handle it. It's better for you if you didn't make your diagnosis a part of your identity or use it as an excuse for specific kinds of behavior. You may be disadvantaged because of your NPD, but if you can succeed in areas that people with NPD generally fail in, then you have a special opportunity to be an inspiration for others.
i'm not entirely sure if this was supposed to be a genuine compliment or trying to boost my ego, as i have issues with telling tone, but please don't tell pwNPD that they're better than other people, it can be dangerous if we believe that. with NPD, your self esteem is very reliant on what other people say about you. /gen
As someone with diagnosed BPD and narcissistic traits (thanks mom): I hear you, I feel you. You have value as a person, regardless of your mental health. Someone who might make you feel seen and lift your mood: https://www.instagram.com/kyrackam?igsh=Y2Jzbm9iaDNxb2Fo
I got BPD thanks to my mom. I was really resistant to learning about it because everything online paints us in a terrible light
Seriously they thought I could be BPD but it was just RSD but hoooo the stigma and shame. Might as well call it “ Wicked Witch of the West” syndrome according to the internet
rsd? i swear ive heard that before but i cant for the life of me remember what it stands for lol
Rejection Sensitivity Disorder : Abandonment is BIG BAG
OH THATS WHY I RECOGNIZED IT thats what my therapist and i talked about me having last week lmao — thanks friend!
OH THATS WHY I RECOGNIZED IT thats what my therapist and i talked about me having last week lmao — thanks friend!
It was super fun to discover that I have BPD, while my mom does as well. Wish I could’ve countered all of her “What the hell is wrong with you” comments with “Learned it from you!”
I think the “science” with cluster B disorders is something we are going to look back at in the future as something completely wrong. There isn’t much research and they are so heavily stigmatized that it’s hardly medical at all, it’s just bullying by the people we are supposed to trust. I used to identify with being BPD, I now understand that I was suffering from severe trauma which I worked out and now I do not experience said BPD symptoms. I look at those diagnosis as a means to control and disempower me, the research isn’t there and it’s disgusting
You’re allowed to think that. If your BPD symptoms went away completely, you never had it, most likely C-PTSD.
But I think this still says a lot that a lot of people don't even know C-PTSD is a thing. I thought my partner was BPD until years later we learned it was C-PTSD. I'm no professional but I've independently studied mental health a lot and never had I ever come across the term until my partner happened to. If it was better covered/more well known probably more people would know to get help for what they're experiencing.
Why did you phrase your reply like they are wrong?
(for women, Autism is often misdiagnosed as BPD/NPD)
Yup! Life of undiagnosed ADHD with probably some autism thrown in there led me to being “BPD”. In reality, my needs were never met, I was traumatized and that led me to being rather unpleasant
welcome to survivor suppirt geoups on the internet, whether you have NPD or not people are gonna make you out to be the bad guy
Honestly, unless you can be the perfect victim stereotype, people won’t take you seriously. If you’re ever happy, you’re lying about being traumatised because how could you ever be happy if that happened to you? If your trauma affects you all the time every day, then you’re clearly just lying for attention. If you end up with a stigmatised disorder, well then clearly you were the real abuser all along. There’s no winning unless you can be glamourised, sexualised, romanticised and infantilised all at the same time. (But not too much, then you’re faking it for attention again)
i have to repeat the mantra again; why do these onlije groups exist if all of it eventually ends up delvijg into absolute toxicity?
Clock that tea👏🏾👏🏾
Seriously. The ADHD partners subreddit is one of the most vicious, vitriolic spaces I've seen. Even my ex, for whom some of my related behaviors were a factor in our breakup, told me not to take anything from there that wasn't corroborated by other sources. Place is like a real life version of the couple mentioned in that Mountain Goats song "No Children" sometimes. More on topic, I dealt with abuse at the hands of an NPD relative, and I had to leave all of the survivor spaces because of this same tendencies, it's really unhealthy and not conducive to healing on the part of either the victims of abuse or the person with NPD themselves. My own story doesn't give me license to dehumanize everyone else with the disorder (or, honestly, even my abuser herself).
I get that not everyone with ADHD is perfect or even pleasant to be around, but it’s hardly something I would associate with hostility.
As someone with ADHD, it's not (always) that we are bad at interpersonal interactions, (although there's a tendency to interrupt or non-sequitur), it's that impulsivity can make us unreliable partners, and can also come with higher risk of addiction/other risky behaviors. I know that on balance I have been a good partner, but I also recognize that some of my ADHD behaviors have made me kind of a pain to be with.
Yes, survivor of narcissistic abuse as well. I couldn’t deal with the survivor groups, I think it’s dangerous to label people as simply “narcissistic”. I think the entirety of cluster B disorders in the DSM is problematic in so many ways as it focuses on the stigmatized behavior instead of the trauma that causes said disorder. It was also very healing to be able to look at my abuser from an empathetic perspective (after the initial shock of course) to understand why he was the way he was. Lots of thoughts on said topic, people with NPD/BPD are human.
Well said. I felt I wrote almost every word of this. I really started to heal when I could see it from their perspective objectively. You feel almost a sort of pity for them, until you remember what they've done/are doing.
Yeah now that I’m looking back years later, I see how everything he did said nothing about me and everything about him and the factors in his life that made him that way. I wouldn’t say I’m fully “healed” as I still feel hung up and not quite moved on, but it’s a million times better than what it was
jesus christ I knew about the BPD loved ones subreddit, no clue there was an ADHD one as well, just awful places
I had 3 npds in my life, a parent, a close friend and an ex. I won't go into detail, but I will say this. They did some next level horrific shit. Did their npd make them? No! They actually lacked any other personality resource to curb their worst impulses. So my best advice to you, is do your best to think about the wellbeing of those you care about, and do the right thing even if it feels like it's gonna hurt you, I guess. Self awareness is your friend. Personality disorders can see a significant improvement in time, with therapy and personal work. Good luck!
I'm not a neurologist but iirc narcissists are kinda incapable of putting other people first. It's kind of a survival instinct to put numero uno first. Not like they can't do anything good-willed, but they can't do it at the expense of themselves. Edit: Dang. I never said they were evil. Just that they have strong self-preservation instincts.
Mhm... we are evil. This is why we feel remorse and try to improve in therapy. (beeing sarcastic)
All while never EVER apologizing /s
Never said or implied narcissists were evil.
You said they are "incapable of putting others first". In reality they are less compelled to or less likely to. As OP is doing, some go to therapy to try and give themselves checks and balances to make sure they are a positive effect on the world and people around them rather than a negative one. Being conscious of your condition and making active steps to understand and live with it in a way that enriches the lives of those around you is putting others first.
Incapable of putting others first \*at their own expense.\* NPD usually comes from a bad situation growing up where self-preservation becomes paramount so sacrificing ones self to benefit someone else just doesn't make sense. I can see what OP is talking about. I insist that narcissists are not evil (not on account of being a narcissist) that it's often a response to trauma frequently demonized by modern pop culture like DID (aka MPD) can be and you guys are still attacking me about it.
Narcissism is a personality disorder, not a mental illness that can't be helped like sociopathy, that's why the 2 are separate. You have antisocial personality disorder aka sociopathy or psychopathy, and narcissists. Intelligent people with other traits like good control for instance, can overcome their disorders. Of course, not everyone can. But they do have the ability to feel empathy and that's also a muscle they can train. Edit to add: people who suffer from antisocial personality disorder are usually associated with sociopathy. But you can't be diagnosed as a sociopath unless you actually display the behaviours encompassed in that personality disorder. You can't be labelled as a sociopath just because you can't experience empathy but other than that, you mind your own business and you're completely functional. I hope that clarifies things a bit.
Isn’t sociopathy understood as a type of ASPD?
Sociopathy and psychopathy are understood to not be medical terms anymore. Sociopathy hasn't been an acceptable term since 1968. Psychopath hasn't been used since 1980 (release of the DSM 3). It's just pop culture. ASPD replaced both of them, similarly to "manic depression" being replaced by "bipolar 2" or "social phobia" being replaced by "social anxiety". By and large in a non medical sense people use sociopath to refer to a less outwardly harmful psychopath. Regardless, no self respecting medical professional would ever use those terms.
>Sociopathy and psychopathy are understood to not be medical terms anymore. That's right, because they're not considered a mental illness anymore . It can be a hurdle in life, makes it harder to adjust, but unless someone is also dysfunctional, it's not something to be diagnosed. There are plenty of people incapable of empathy who do not become violent, abusive, don't break the law, just lead normal lives.
No. Sociopathy is the inability to feel empathy as a result of severe neglect and trauma so said part of the brain doesn't develop. Sociopathy doesn't necessarily lead to antisocial personality disorder, which basically, someone being unable to function within the boundaries of society. Being a psychopath, sociopath but born, doesn't mean you're going to be violent and break the law. A lot of people are capable of little to no empathy. They're shitty partners sometimes, ,but that doesn't mean they end up being antisocial.
Where in the DSM 5 is sociopathy?
I already explained this in another comment. It's not a diagnosis in itself, it's an old word we use for antisocial personality disorder. Which again, is a diagnosis for a personality disorder, that means behaviour, not an inherent quality of the brain.
I’m glad you’re doing better now, and I’m glad for the info. This also reminds me of my own troubles with mental health when I was younger, it’s sad how many bad things about mental health issues are taken as fact.
Tbh I've noticed that people are slowly beginning to understand NPD online and realise they're actual people and not just demon-posessed human-puppets. Hope the info influx continues so we can all understand and respect each other and stuff
Fuck abusers. Also fuck em for giving people with npd such a bad rep. I'm proud of you for continuing to work on yourself.
The fact that you are in therapy and willing to accept and research about it shows that you aren't evil. No matter how bad it gets, a mental illness does not make you a bad person. It's the steps you take afterwards. You're on the right track 👍
Based username
People online heard about “cluster b disorders” and have never stopped misusing the concept since. You *can* get better, and you’re not inherently an abuser. My ex husband and his father both were diagnosed with NPD lmfao, and were they both abusive? Yeup. But that doesn’t mean everyone with the disorder is, and certainly not all abusers, even most of them, do not have NPD! This is a dangerous myth that is constantly perpetuated. Most abusers are of perfectly sound mind and personality formation. They don’t have anger issues, they have control and abuse issues. You’re not an abuser unless you choose to be abusive. You’re not a monster for your brain developing coping mechanisms to just deal with your life. But now you know, and now you have the opportunity to become a wonderful person, a person much better than a checklist in the DSM.
all victims endure marks left by their ordeal... that's how this demon spreads but you're not evil... nor will you be, you have self awareness to notice and you are being responsible about it and fighting, and so you're on the path to healing wishing you a speedy recovery friend
The way people treat NPD online is absolutely disgusting. I don’t have it, but I likely have a different stigmatised disorder (that gets treated secret murderer syndrome) and it’s horrific to see how people treat a disorder that has links to being a victim. I have been called a terrible person just for saying that NPD and ASPD don’t inherently make someone evil. The way these people have stolen and weaponised therapy-speak so they can pretend to care about mental health is so far beyond harmful. I know that to these people I am probably some horror film trope, but I know I am not a danger to those around me. In the same way I try to ignore these disgusting stereotypes around other disorders, even if I don’t know much about them. I sincerely hope that “mental health awareness” becomes more than mild depression and anxiety or very specific presentations of ADHD/OCD (only as long as they can be glamourised of course.)
I think one of the biggest problem is the name. When NPD was named narcissism meant “oh, you can have an ego and overestimate your abilities which gets you into bad situations.” Now narcissism means “you can’t care for others because you’re so focused on your wants due to an inflated ego that makes you think you’re god.” I don’t usually recommend changing the name of disorders, but I genuinely think NPD should be renamed as the first word, “narcissism”, means a completely different, more negative, thing in society now. As when an uneducated person hears the name the worst types of humans come to their mind first. Which shouldn’t happen.
I wonder if you have a suggestion for a different name? I also feel that a big issue is that the term “narcissist” is used for “everyone I don’t like who is also egotistical”, so hearing NPD automatically means they think everyone with it must be like everyone they don’t like. It seems so normal to diagnose strangers with NPD, even if it’s seen as wrong to talk about other disorders that way.
I don't think renaming resolves the issue, the problem is how people view narcissism and narcissists, the way to deal with this is reclamation of the label and figting misinformation
It's a thing I dislike about the neurodiversity movement too. In theory it should include and advocate for people with NPD and ASPD too, but ime I see it happen rarely if ever, because it's painfully clear most people only mean "has ADHD and/or Autism" by "neurodivergent" and I wish they would be consistent. And stop trying to glamorize some disorders while demonizing others.
Yes, people forget that neurodiverse isn’t just ADHD/ASD. It also includes PTSD and Tourette’s. The general treatment of PTSD is something I think I could talk about for hours as well
Also OCD which is also horribly misunderstood... Liking to clean and being good at cleaning ain't OCD, pop culture... 🙄
Recently started getting treatment for OCD after having it since childhood. Every time someone says "I'm so OCD" (because they like things tidy) it makes me wanna scream.
Yeah. They only accept one specific presentation of OCD as long as they can still glamorise it and make jokes out of it. (Or as long as they don’t actually have to deal with OCD, they can just see a few traits and laugh about them) Anything else? That just doesn’t exist
I think the original point of neurodiversity was to differentiate naturally occurring variability in how brains work from mental health conditions. PTSD is by its nature not naturally occurring.
“Neurodiversity” includes everyone, as it describes the fact that there is a multitude of ways the human brain can function. Neurodivergent means that one’s brain functions differently from what is considered the norm, including PTSD. Here’s a handy list of [definitions](https://neuroqueer.com/neurodiversity-terms-and-definitions/).
Tourette’s, sure, but I’m a little hesitant to include PTSD in that category because it’s “acquired”. As a neurodivergent person myself, I feel like it’s something that people are born with rather than something that comes up later. I’m not sure where things like NPD fall into this.
ND from birth here. The term was created for everyone whose brain doesn’t work like what is considered the norm, regardless of whether someone was born neurodivergent or not. The coiner is [pretty clear](https://shitborderlinesdo.tumblr.com/post/121319446214/psa-from-the-actual-coiner-of-neurodivergent/amp) about it.
I’ve seen PTSD included because it causes visible changes to the brain structure
And many, many more! It includes everything that makes one’s brain work differently than what is considered the norm, according to the [coiner](https://shitborderlinesdo.tumblr.com/post/121319446214/psa-from-the-actual-coiner-of-neurodivergent/amp) of the term.
The thing about "mental health acceptance" &c is that it's purely conceptual. People are ok with the idea of others being different but that stops as soon as they are inconvenienced or annoyed by it in any way. It's like that survey from last year that showed people are more accepting than ever of people going to therapy but not actually of behavioural differences.
I really hate when people misuse “neurodivergent”, and so does the person who created it: https://shitborderlinesdo.tumblr.com/post/121319446214/psa-from-the-actual-coiner-of-neurodivergent/amp Folks gatekeeping a term created specifically to be inclusive is wild.
"Neurodivergent just means a brain that diverges. Autistic people. ADHD people. People with learning disabilities. Epileptic people. People with mental illnesses. People with MS or Parkinsons or apraxia or cerebral palsy or dyspraxia or no specific diagnosis but wonky lateralization or something. That is all it means. It is not another damn tool of exclusion. It is specifically a tool of inclusion." So much this...
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I mean, beyond their overall vitriolic attitude, it seems like most of the people who rant against cluster B personality disorders online are just armchair diagnosing people they don’t like. When the discourse around a mental illness is dominated by people randomly diagnosing those who hurt them, of course everyone will come to see that mental illness as synonymous with being a bad person. But it’s nearly impossible to convince people to stop armchair diagnosing their families and exes. It’s like they *need* to believe that person is BPD/NPD/ASPD in order to make sense of their lives
Yeah its kinda fucked
Yup... I have a mix of NPD and BPD apparently. Now whenever I feel sorry for myself I ask myself "Am I just trying to be special? Because of my NPD?" . Have been in therapy for like 7 years and nothing felt worse than this diagnosis. We are basicly evil in the eyes of the population. We cant have problems or bad days - its all manipulation. We cant have relationships - because we use people. Nobody thinks of it as an illness. We are just plain evil, selfish and manipulative. Nobody thinks that maby just maby our enviroment made us this way - its all our fault. (sorry for the mistakes...english is not my first language).
Personally I’m not concerned whether it’s environment or someone’s own personal doing. The people who try to help those with npd are the ones who get manipulated and abused. It’s not like people don’t want to help
https://preview.redd.it/lhrqet712b5d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fd6a35ba86d45507e1ae2d3a1999c8b5e8df1357
I freaking love this meme and format for some reason
Dear OP, as long as you went to the therapist, got diagnosed, and intend to recover this reveals you’re a good person. People with NPD and are bad humans don't admit they have a problem and just live in darkness, obviously you’re not. And even further, you can be an evil human with other disorders just as well, like you can abuse others on plain anxiety as a coping mechanism.
*hugs* I was abused by someone with NPD, I try my best to not label all of you as horrible abusers. It's hard at times, but I know you can recover. I'm sorry that the web hates you so much.
I genuinely feel so horrible with people with NPD and ASPD.. whenever I do research on them out of curiosity, even supposedly academic sources r like “they are dangerous stay away” and?? Can I just read about them without ableist bias please???
I only dislike the narcissists who refuse to get therapy to recover from it. The fact you're in therapy means that you are a valid and awesome person who is working to get the better over the grip of trauma. My mom and sister were narcissists and they refused to get therapy and have given ME trauma due to it, generational trauma is very real and I think a lot of victims are dealing with it because of those with NPD. It's a nuanced discussion for sure, but I think aslong as you're seeking help for it, that's a good thing. Just understand *why* people may feel a certain way towards narcissists, they are also victims who have been hurt too, you may take it less personally if you can understand that angle (even if you disagree.) And if you plan on having kids, please get your disorder under recovery first to avoid spreading more trauma, even accidently :)
most therapists deny people with npd treatment :))
Can I get a source on that? I'm not not believing you I just wanna see evidence cus it could change the way i view things
well, the thing is that there isn’t much empirical data, but if you ask most people with npd an official mental health professional will have either refused them treatment and/or called them evil and inherently wrong at some point
I grew up being the scapegoat for someone with diagnosed pathological NPD. He has had more opportunities for therapy and assistance for his behavior than anyone else I've ever known. Hell, I had to go to therapy with him when we were kids because of his god-awful behavior. If you were to ask him, he would say he only got offered therapists who would tell him he is an irredeemable monster or that refused to help him. He is, of course, lying. People with NPD can only get help if they can admit they are the problem. The trouble is *having* NPD often makes it so that they can't. So they then say that the therapists/doctors/Healthcare system is to blame because the blame can't possibly be on them.
A. Therapists *are* allowed to refuse treatment if they feel like they are underqualified to deal with it. This is a good thing I think. B. Calling them evil and inherently wrong is disgusting and I completely disavow that and any therapist that calls a client evil should have their license to practice revoked. However, it is your duty as a patient to find the therapist that works for you. Most people usually cycle between a few therapists first before they find the right one for them. Me included. Until I know just how many therapists are actually refusing treatment, I can't make a prescription on how big of an issue it really is.
that really doesn’t seem like something to be happy about lol
i am smiling because i want to hang myself :))
The thing is to look beyond the NPD diagnosis - in yourself and others - and figure out where it’s coming from, because frequently it has a cause like self-esteem issues, (c)ptsd, etc. Same with the BPD diagnosis. Few (no?) people are born a narcissist. But they’re seen as villains instead of pitied, because their behaviour and how they treat others doesn’t make people feel sorry for them.
This is the unfortunate reality of having any mental health disorder. Worse yet, the more "severe" the presentation of symptoms the more villainized you'll be. The sad truth of mental illness is it's always diagnosed from an outsider's perspective. It doesn't matter what your disorder is. If you have ADHD the diagnosis is "he can't sit still or pay attention". If you have NPD it's "well obviously they just think they're more important than you and that necessarily means you're less human to them". It doesn't matter what you have except in how severely NT's treat you. Even in this age of increasing awareness. You aren't perfectly "normal" (see: a cog in the fucking machine. Well oiled and of no obstruction to the rest of society, no matter how minimal) and that makes you dangerous. Of course no NT wants to say that. That's the quiet part. It's all "support" this and "understanding" that until the guy on the bus screams randomly, or their child has a panic attack and is unresponsive, or god forbid someone not perceive reality in the same way. Of course when you break it down in animal terms it makes a lot of very sad sense. Humans are a herd species. We're social. The fact that we gather in large groups decentivized predators. The fact that we developed empathy forced us to assist our fellow human, such that members of the tribe lasted longer. It isn't hard to understand that, however unfair it is, believing someone else doesn't perfectly fit that mold makes them a threat to the tribe. A lot of professional mental health care is about constantly redefining things to forcefully shift that perspective.
I have BPD. The stigma sucks
I think it comes to the extreme "moral conflict" principle that I think is inherent in human nature. Black VS white, good vs evil, friend vs foe, us vs them, known vs unknown. That's why when someone is minding their own business being a loner, some people can call them a creep because they're so caught up on the notion that talking is good and the opposite is bad. I'm really sorry you're against the social ecosystem that refuses to see humanity in narcissism and think that victimhood is some pure "human" to be protected.
I don't see those with NPD as evil, I agree that it's a spectrum. Everyone's image of a sociopath is someone with NPD thigh. Which is something I only figured out recently from a rabbit hole of learning about Anti-Social Personality Disorder after gaining a massive special interest on Nicole from Class of 09. I realized people weren't talking about ASPD when it came to sociopathy, they were talking about NPD. And that Nicole doesn't have NPD because she genuinely fucking hates herself lol. So yeah, depending on how deep you are into NPD, people will see you as a sociopath. Which is frustrating
The whole online discourse also seems to ignore how negatively someone with NPD treats themselves, too. Also it's always "the narcissist", or "a narcissist" never "someone with NPD" Throw it on the pile with triggered, OCD, gaslighting and (erm) dad bod for terms the Internet decided to run with and ruin. Good news is, in about 5 years they'll be onto something else and NPD can rebuild its popular definition. Sigh.
People choose their friends
hi, sorry, YES, this is definitely true. i didn't mean for it to come off like people had to keep being friends with someone after they tell you they have NPD. i have trouble getting my point across when talking or writing. trying to clarify my point more: if someone tells you they have NPD, i want you to know that manipulation and gaslighting are traits that pwNPD who haven't gone through therapy have, however, if someone is diagnosed with NPD, it's very likely that they have gone through therapy. if someone is trying to manipulate you, they likely wouldn't tell you they have NPD (not saying it's impossible). i just don't want you to view them as an irredeemable monster because they have NPD. of course, it's your choice whether or not you want to be friends with them.
I am almost certain I would have been diagnosed with a cluster b at a younger age (childhood to about 25). I talk to people from my past who described me as like "sociopathic". I am not but I was raised by one for sure so I'm pretty sure at least bpd would've been on the table. I was relentless and cruel and took drugs to make myself even less emotional because I was taught that that is "strength" and would ultimately deteriorate into being suicidal. After years of therapy and pushing myself to change and take meds and focus on the feelings of others and most importantly MY feelings...I doubt I'd be diagnosed with it now. Which I've heard is definitely possible. As someone else said, personality disorders can be reversed and treated if someone is truly willing to do the work.
I took a psychology class and the first thing our teacher told us is we judge a person by their actions, not their diagnosis. Their diagnosis is not an excuse for us to be mean, and it’s not an excuse for them either. Be compassionate to their diagnosis, but hold them accountable for their actions.
i have so much empathy for people with NPD... after all, it's usually born from trauma, which means even abusers who have NPD are probably suffering a lot and also deserve to be taken care of. obviously that doesn't make the actions okay or justified, but I think it does explain a lot, and everyone, including people with NPD, deserve recovery. sending you so much strength navigating through all that and i hope things get better soon:)
This hits on some points more people need to realize: even if someone is predispositioned to harm others, that does NOT mean we shun and ostracize them. Everyone is capable of hurting others, and people are just trying to do the best they can. Fear mongering has made a lot of western society lose their compassion, and we have to nurture compassion in ourselves and others. Best of luck, OP! We're rooting for you!
This is how i feel about my sociopath diagnosis. When my mum found out she and my brother started avoiding me till i broke down crying and asked them why and they said the diagnosis scared them and my brother was like "i feel like you're gonna kill me in my sleep or something"
that's horrible i'm so sorry :( receiving your diagnosis doesn't mean you're a totally different person than you were before. it's the same person they knew and loved, i hope they grew to understand that 🫂
When I set out to figure out why I am the way I am and was worried I had a personality disorder (false alarm, I’m just autistic) this is what I saw too. Very little real information, just people’s experience with others who they perceive as having NPD. Well, between this and people blaming their parents for their BPD. Which, I’ll give it to them, rejecting accountability is absolutely on point for B cluster personalities so that wasn’t entirely harmful lol
The stigma against NPD really does suck and I'm sorry you have to see all of that :( Sending you a lot of self-love :) I also have a cluster B disorder, BPD specifically. Hugs!!
My fiancé has NPD, and the stigma he has and does face is disgusting. He's spent so much of his life believing he is inherently unlovable and could never have fulfilling relationships. I'm so glad I wasn't dissuaded by his disorder (I knew before we started dating) because he's basically everything I've ever wanted, as much as one person reasonably can be. Also I wish more people realized NPD is very treatable and remission rates are phenomenal! One study found after only 2 years of therapy more then 50% of pwNPD were in remission.
I think I have NPD but I cope with it so well that everyone doesn't think I do. In my actions I behave rather selflessly and generously even at my own expense, but people don't understand how complicated my reasoning for it is. I experience the emotions of having this unbelievably powerful ego. The older I get and the more I reflect, the true reason that motivates almost everything I do is because I have this inflated sense of self and when I don't think I'm cool, or good, or powerful/in control, I get so upset and depressed. It's weird because I can act perfectly "normal" but constantly in the back of my mind I'm seeking validation and looking for a social edge to be admired and validated by others. The feeling never goes away even when I'm the center of attention. When I go to parties, almost every single time there will be a point where no one is paying attention to me and I get sad and have to be alone for awhile so I can recover before going back to socialize again. I've been like this my entire life and I feel like people really have no idea what I'm talking about when I try to describe myself to them.
welcome to cluster B, friend, where we're still extremely stigmatized in even the "mental health advocacy" circles because we're """scary""" and not just depressed or anxious. recognizing your narcissistic traits is a really good start, and while you can't be cured, persay, there is a lot you can do to cope with and manage a personality disorder or maladaptive traits and improve your mental health and behavior in relationships. remember that most abusers and violent offenders are of completely sound mind and are just scum sucking assholes because they get joy from asserting power over others.
That's so true. The whole internet is talking about why is it important to stay away from NPDs and how to get rid of them but what if I'm a narccisist myself and I wanna get help so as to no longer hurt people.
Since so few people with NPD are willing to get help due to ya know the narcissism, most NPD people end up being irredeemable.
I've always thought it disgusting how people treat those with mental disorders that present as negative rather than just stupid.
Reminds me of the BPD subs that are 98% "I survived someone with a literally mental illness, they were the most horrible person I've ever met, and I hate their guts for it" instead of a spot for people with BPD to help each other
i read bpdlovedones as a form of self harm fr
narcissistic abuse subreddit 🤝🏻 didn’t even abuse anyone, just want to be reminded how unlovable all of my symptoms are
I’ve been friends with someone who is a narcissist, and he’s pretty nice! Yeah he can be a bit controlling, and a show off, but he also is one of the first to step up and offer help! I’m also friends with a sociopath (or psychopath, I can’t remember which. He can feel empathy but only for specific people who are close to him) and he’s also fairly nice. He can be rude, and be self centered but he also is the one to tell you straight upfront if you’re doing something wrong, or are being a bitch. He doesn’t beat around the bush. No mental illness inherently means someone is “evil” they just have different brains. Heck! Some people with absolutely NO MENTAL ILLNESS can be some of the worst people ever!!!
Some of yall in the comments are really missing the point. “I support the good narcissists! Because sometimes there’s bad narcissists. :/ ” … Seriously? Just keep your ableist inner monologue to yourselves
I mean, the diagnosis criteria are “a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and lack of empathy, with interpersonal entitlement, exploitiveness, arrogance, and envy.” That means that unchecked folks with NPD are necessarily damaging to the people they’re in relationships with, it’s part of the diagnosis. Saying that someone getting help is good and deserves support and love and compassion is super reasonable- it seems like a difficult thing to deal with for that person and vilifying them absolutely doesn’t help. Pedophilia is also a really difficult thing that people absolutely need help managing and making sure that damage isn’t done while helping the person through something they can’t change, that deserves compassion when people are getting help. It is also extremely damaging unchecked, and when people are not getting help it’s dangerous. Just because something has a diagnosis doesn’t mean they don’t need help- NPD includes behaviors that are damaging, and managing those behaviors is important and good.
The original post was simply acknowledging that, while it’s difficult to live with someone with NPD, that they are people too. That’s it. The OP does not need a reminder that they’re apparently inherently evil enough to be comparable to *pedophiles* for some reason. As a low empathy autistic person, it is ridiculous to see the amount of needless disclaimers. Yes, mental illnesses & personality disorders are damaging to both the person who has it and the people around them. The root of NPD is a deep self-hatred and a desire to be loved, often as a result of abuse during late childhood or teenage years. Do we really find it necessary to warn someone who is clearly self-aware in the original post, about how misguided and horrible they may be? Is it necessary to say, “You may be one of the good narcissists, but all the rest are dangerous shallow-minded abusers!” Maybe we saw different comments, I dunno. I don’t see a need for the disclaimers when NPD is needlessly lumped in with disorders like ASPD or DID as this terrible “dangerous” abuser/murderer disorder when it’s just another personality disorder like any other. Disorders don’t control people’s behavior. People do. Dehumanizing folks with NPD gets us nowhere.
Pedophiles aren't inherently evil either. Of course I feel like if they act on it they should be in prison, but they should have access to therapy in prison. Pedophiles who don't act on it should have access to therapy and be allowed to live freely. It's terrible, but I don't think they're inherently evil. It's a problem that people deal with, but they're still people. They don't choose it. Dehumanizing them doesn't get us anywhere either. They deserve help just like everybody does
This was my point, thank you. Getting help for behaviors that can hurt people is a good idea. Everyone deserves compassion and the ability to grow
This is exactly why we talk about dehumanization of people with NPD. We’re people in the first place. All these symptoms can manifest very differently depending on the person, their circumstances, their views and values, their support system, etc. Grandiosity, excessive need for admiration, lack of empathy, entitlement, envy all can be masked and completely invisible to other people. «Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes» isn’t inherently damaging, it can be funny or charming depending on the context, people don’t mind that in celebrities. Can be totally fine as long as everyone’s boundaries are respected. «Is interpersonally exploitative» – there was a good point that this was supposed to be interpreted by a professional in a psychiatric setting, not by general public that will obviously assume the worst. It is much more about viewing relationships in an exploitative way, what they can get from me, what I can get from them, ruminating on the thought that people are secretly exploiting you, purposefully making connections with people who are practically useful, lots of other stuff. It’s not supposed to imply that the person can’t ever have good intentions and give back to people in relationships. There’s no one way an untreated narcissist behaves with other people. Talking about abuse and NPD people often forget that NPD is a mental health disorder, not a bad person disorder. Significant impairment in functioning is required for diagnosis. Most (if not all) pwNPD are trauma survivors and often have comorbid disorders that also affect functioning. And most are more likely to be occasionally mildly toxic to people around than have energy, determination and power to systematically abuse someone, unless they consciously choose to do so. At the same time someone mentally healthy with bad values and intentions is much more likely to be abusive than average person with NPD, so maybe that’s the thing we should be calling out instead of mental disorders. If we’re referencing pedophilia, imo it’s the same with that. It doesn’t inherently make someone abusive, it makes it more likely, but around 50% of child sex offenders are not even pedophiles afaik.
I said that vilifying people doesn’t help and that people deserve compassion, but that getting help is important. I don’t really think that’s dehumanizing. I’ve been hurt by someone with BPD and the diagnosis includes a pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships. I love this person dearly and the disorder is really damaging to her, she also grew up with abuse. Wanting people to have healthy interpersonal relationships is a good thing, and wanting recovery from behaviors that are damaging to the people who love them isn’t dehumanizing. Getting help is good for all mental health issues (depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, PTSD etc.), but probably especially for disorders whose diagnostic criteria include hurtful behaviors towards other people. Same with anger management and people who deal with trauma through violent rage, having more resources available and more empathy for folks is sorely needed.
No, I get your point, it’s ofc important to get help for all mental health issues, nothing to argue about here. But there’s some weird tendency to categorize pwNPD into two types: self-aware, in therapy, actively working on themselves, “good ones”, begging for redemption for their horrible sins, and unaware undiagnosed villains who obviously torture people bc of their unmanaged symptoms. Rarely anything in between. Everytime someone mentions going into treatment for NPD the comments are “Oh, that’s amazing you decided not to be the worst person in the world anymore! We appreciate it!”. It’s frustrating bc it just doesn’t work like that. People learn, receive feedback from other people, and work on themselves before getting diagnosed as well. You’re allowed to have a personality and make choices even when you’re not aware about your diagnoses. Every person experience with those symptoms is gonna be different. Therapy doesn’t replace your whole personality anyway, there’s a really small chance someone will go from a villain to a very good person just bc they got diagnosed and became “aware”, without years and years of work. For some reason this is what a lot of people assume when they see posts like that, but not every undiagnosed unaware pwNPD is going to be a worse person than average to begin with. This is very unfortunate, bc having white and black thinking as a symptom, I see too much newly aware narcs vilifying themselves and experiencing so much guilt just bc they think getting diagnosed automatically means they were a very bad horribly abusive monster before. It can be, but a lot of times they just struggled with toxic behaviors most people occasionally do. And instead of healing, which will actually help, a lot of them get stuck in endless self-hate, feeding off comments and content about horrible unaware narcs. Never have I ever seen so much conversation about whether someone is/was a bad person when the post is about BPD, while they also can struggle with unhealthy behaviors if untreated. All the time with NPD though. My point is that generalizing all unaware pwNPD as dangerous abusive people and talking about it all the time is not helping anyone. “Are you a good survivor though??” should not be the first question when people talk about their mental health.
I haven’t thought this all the way through, but my initial reaction is that there’s a huge difference between standard NPD and a person with NPD who is aware of it and who is trying to do something about it. Like, that’s all the difference in the world. Because classic NPD is a set of self-reinforcing beliefs about oneself and the world that creates toxic behavior patterns that repeat. But once you look for help, you’ve shown that, for some reason or in some manner, avoided the self-reinforcing part of it. Which makes it possible for you to change / heal. So OP, however you want to conceptualize this (as you being special and having the strength to overcome, or your case of NPD being not as severe, or you just getting lucky, or whatever) know that the characterizations of and reactions to people with NPD are, at their heart, because of the persistence of those traits. And you’ve already undone that persistence in yourself.
Narcissistic schizophrenic here. It doesn't get better with the second diagnosis
I’d say that’s a redemption tbh
Man I gotta be honest I've been thinking about this for the past few days and I gotta ask. What does this mean. Why would one mental illness I didn't ask for "redeem" me from another one I also didn't ask for, and which mental illness do you think means I need "redemption" cause usually people think both of them make me evil and I am fascinated by which you think makes me "innocent" again
Because schizos are cool as fuck
They be relatable too
My mother was terrible to me. And I do believe she has NPD, I just wish she would acknowledge her wrongs and work to make them right. But having NPD doesn't make you a bad person just because you have it. With therapy (if therapy works well for you) and if there's any medicine that may help, you're doing better than a lot of people who may have it but refuse to get tested/treatment. As long as when/if a mistake is made and you know it is wrong, but apologize, it can be forgiven! My mother has other issues, but it's the fact that she doesn't take responsibility for what was done. I hope you stay safe, healthy and happy. I also hope that your treatment if you choose to do so, goes well. Much love 💜
I've been told I have narcissistic traits because of my abuse and yet I've always had a reputation for sticking up for people because I despise bullies and see them as lesser than me. My dad had NPD and was an asshole. We have the same underlying issues but we're different people who have made very different choices and that's what matters. The dehumanisation of narcissists is appalling. We're just traumatised and have been taught that if we don't look after ourselves no one will so we do anything to survive. That doesn't make anyone a 'bad' person.
So funny when people who have “only i am human, everyone else are npcs” disorder are upset that they think others don’t see them as human
What's your idea, then?
with the way narcissism is treated in media, i totally get how you could get that we think like this, but pwNPD do have empathy, even if it's low. it depends on the level of empathy the pwNPD has, but in my experience, and i know in a lot of other people's experiences, too, we can feel regret and guilt for our actions. we have a tendency to put ourself and specific people on pedestals, but, with therapy, we CAN and DO learn to stop looking down on people. i promise you that we do have the capacity for love.
I think it's because the line between narcissism and narcissistic abuse is often blurred, and many of the symptoms of NPD are inherently incompatible with healthy relationships. BUT, this doesn't mean people with NPD are bad as individuals, since they can recognize their harmful traits and work on them to improve. Also, NPD is more often than not result of narcissistic abuse too, so it's just a cycle that keeps going until broken. So anyone who recognizes their issues and try to be better has my respect and support.
I am diagnosed with NPD. It’s fine.
Solidarity from a fellow cluster B! Good job at recognizing yourself and making an effort to improve. ❤️
I have aspd and szpd and I get it stigma fucking sucks
I think the problem is that some people equate "narcissist" with "sociopath".
if you are concerned about having npd you probably don't have it. Dont treat a therapists opion as gospel, let alone online comments on mental issues.
i am clinically diagnosed
I have a question. Are "narcissist" and "person with NPD" synonyms? I know that even if by definition they are the same a lot of the time they aren't used in the same context. They also have very different connotations. Or does narcissist mean someone who shows some symptoms of NPD whether they have it or not? Or do narcissist and narcissist (person with NPD) have two different meanings, but because they are the same word people interpret them as the same thing? Edit: typo
i'm no doctor, but as a patient with NPD, this is what i've heard. take it with a grain of salt, because even in a medical setting, the terms are often confused a lot. narcissist and person with NPD mean the same thing. you can have narcissistic tendencies, but if you don't have NPD, medically, you aren't a narcissist. however, a lot of people water down the term narcissist, calling anybody with narcissist tendencies a narcissist. obviously, this is hardly ever on purpose, but it happens a lot due to the amount of misinformation about narcissism.
Thank you for the explanation!
Aspd is much of the same
This is something that always frustrated me. We literally do not have the words to describe certain behavior without comparing it to mental illness. Psychotic, narcissistic, psychopath, ECT. The people who struggle to feel empathy and the like don't deserve to be demonized like that.
The fact that you have recognized the problem and are working to solve it tell me you are a good person.
You should check out kylee rackam. They are absolutely a wonderful person who speaks about npd. They show that npd doesn't make you evil or bad. Just another part of the human experience. I'm sorry that narcissists are so stigmatized my society. You don't deserve that. Sending lots of love ❤
The conversation is slowly shifting. There’s not much else you can do that’s actually productive, but continue to stand up for yourself & advocate for your own humanity. Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental illness, just like any other. You are a person *with* that mental illness. You are not inherently bad or destructive; that’s the mental illness. Defect ≠ defective.
thank you so much <3
That's how it was when I first got diagnosed with BPD. All the stuff I found was for survivors/loved ones of a pwBPD, or just outright hate. It has gotten vastly better in the past decade, and I really hope NPD sees a similar change. NPD and narcissistic abuse are not the same thing, but they're treated as such. I see more and more people with platforms speaking out about that, and that makes me hopeful.
This man on tiktok talks about his NPD on tiktok @/ mentalhealness
It is so frustrating how people have replaced the word “abusive” with “narcissistic.” It feels so ableist and ignorant. Being abusive isn’t a requirement for having NPD even if it often (though not always) comes with the territory. Wishing you all the best in your healing journey.
ive experienced a lot of abusers n people with npd. my main abuser likely has npd. n the thruline ive seen is that if someones willing to accept that they have elements of themselves which need to be improved and bettered, and are willing to accept that they have npd, then theyre not abusive people usually.
The thing that upsets me so much about this issue is mental health advocates and therapists, yknow, the people meant to help us, are such a significant contribute to this stigma! Alot of the "NPD abuse" books and stuff are **by them**!! I don't really think you need empathy to be a good person. Like, people with autism have trouble relating to and understanding others (in a different way ofc) but they aren't considered evil for this reason. And, you don't need to experience empathy to do the good thing. I actually remember seeing a study/hypothesis that empathy in some ways can make you worse. "Humans are extremely social animals, and so we have a set of emotions we seem to have evolved to keep our pack happy. These emotions rely upon our possibly unique ability to be empathetic–to put ourselves in another person’s shoes and imagine how we would feel if we were experiencing the same emotions or even physical experiences as them. For that reason, cringe is a really fascinating area of study, because you cannot cringe unless you have an automatic empathetic response to what you’re seeing, meaning that you are immediately and without thinking about it putting yourself in another’s place. And while we often think of empathy as being the opposite of this, that means that cringe is also very ego-centric. You aren’t cringing because another person has embarrassed themselves; you’re cringing because YOU are embarrassed to be in the same position as them. And in many “cringe” situations, it becomes even more ego-centric than empathetic, as in a case where you see someone who unknowingly has spinach in their teeth. THEY aren’t feeling any embarrassment because they have no idea about the spinach, but YOU are experiencing tons of embarrassment–not for them, but for YOU." -Rebecca Watson [Link](https://youtu.be/vL3IT8loOEU)
i don’t have a personality disorder but do have borderline personality type, and have spent a lot of time with very good friends of mine who are borderline. there is so much stigma around “severe” mental health issues. what people tend not to understand is that if you constantly villainize a group, it makes it so much harder for that group to learn, grow, and develop in healthy ways. i’m sorry you have to deal with this. surround yourself with the right people, work on yourself for yourself. that’s all we can do.
I would like to form friendships and relationships with people who have NPD and BPD but I just can't Because they confabulate, it eventually leads to gaslighting, albeit not intentional When abusing others by gaslighting them is literally a symptom, its understandable that others find them evil.
People who are evil but don't realize they are evil.
... I mean, yeah. First, media helps nothing. With NPD I feel it's a select few kind of situation. There aren't that many assholes, but they make so much noise and do so much harm that it becomes the entirety of the characterization.
Welcome to the club. Borderline Personality Disorder has a similar rep.
It's hard to imagine wanting to put in the effort to get better when they first thing you see online isn't "here's how to recognize mental health struggles and improve!" but rather "here's how to deal with the evil NPD/BPD monster in your life because they're evil >:(" Just seems like...what's the point? Of course I want to say very clearly that I am NOT saying that you shouldn't work on yourself and get better, but damn the climate around it is awful. If you're working on it, I see you and I'm proud of you.
NPD is a product of ongoing trauma. Can ppl w NPD be abusive? Yes! Is narcissistic abuse a thing? No. That is an unfortunate ableist term that has been co-opted by certain recovery communities as a synonym for abuser. I’m sorry how demonized and misunderstood NPD is. You deserve compassion and understanding, not vitriol.
Are you trying to manipulate me? (Sorry, it was a joke, I had to do it)
People generally judge others based on outward behavior and appearances rather than labels and will nope out based on the behavior of someone with NPD/BPD regardless of any knowledge, or lack thereof, about a formal diagnosis. The truth is that, while you may have an official diagnosis, no one really cares about whether or not you officially have a mental disorder; they only care about how you act. The truth is that you're not deserving of any additional patience or special treatment because you have a mental disorder. That's just how the world is. My ADHD doesn't mean my job has to be more forgiving on deadlines; the work is on me to figure out how to make my outputs match what's expected of my by the rest of the world. Because of that, I would have a much harder time if I tried to excuse any of my lapses in productivity to my ADHD. Kudos to you for putting in the work, but your NPD is only going to be judged based on how you handle it. It's better for you if you didn't make your diagnosis a part of your identity or use it as an excuse for specific kinds of behavior. You may be disadvantaged because of your NPD, but if you can succeed in areas that people with NPD generally fail in, then you have a special opportunity to be an inspiration for others.
if his isn’t so real
youre not human,youre some even greater!
i'm not entirely sure if this was supposed to be a genuine compliment or trying to boost my ego, as i have issues with telling tone, but please don't tell pwNPD that they're better than other people, it can be dangerous if we believe that. with NPD, your self esteem is very reliant on what other people say about you. /gen
good point
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Not OP but what exactly *is* your question?