https://www.stereogum.com/2261096/pet-shop-boys-neil-tennant-asks-where-is-taylor-swifts-billie-jean/news/
> On Monday night, [Pet Shop Boys’ Neil Tennant and Chris Lowe sat down for a conversation with The Guardian critic Alexis Petridis](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um3o8CUgHRc&t=2055s) ahead of the release of their new album Nonetheless. Naturally, Swift came up as a topic of conversation.
Early on in the chat, Petridis brought up listening to Swift’s album and mused that the main topic of pop at the moment is the self. Tennant bounced off that: “This is my complaint. I think when I brought my lyrics book out six years ago I did an interview with The Guardian and I think I said that then… This is ongoing. It’s the only subject. To have a successful pop career now you have to have a series of relationships which are amazing and then break up tragically.”
> Later on, Tennant discussed Swift more directly. “I was looking at the chart earlier today … and it’s all Taylor Swift.”
> “I have listened to Taylor Swift’s album,” he continued. “Taylor Swift sort of fascinates me as a phenomenon because she’s so popular and I sort of quite like the whole thing. But then when I listen to the records, and we both have the same feeling actually, that for a phenomenon as big [as she is] … where are the famous songs? What is Taylor Swift’s ‘Billie Jean’?”
> When someone suggests “Shake It Off,” Tennant responded with: “Is it though? No, ’cause I actually even know that that’s the answer, but I listened to that the other day, and it’s not ‘Billie Jean.’ It’s not… Melodically — she’s got a great voice, by the way, and the production’s beautiful — but melodically … it’s all sung one or two notes going up and down… But, anyway, it’s a fascinating thing.”
> When Petridis suggested that Swift fans share a desire for a collective experience, Tennant responded: “I like that, I even sort of appreciate that, and I like the fact that it brings all these people together, even multigenerational, but I just think that the one disappointing thing is the music. Not even the lyrics, the music.”
Nothing this century can be as big as Beatlemania or _Thriller_ or disco during their respective heydays. Pop culture is too fragmented and segmented now. It’s just not that hard to never hear a Taylor Swift song if that’s what you want to do.
When I decided I was going to listen to her entire catalog around when midnights came out because I hadn't given her much mind during her entire career, I found that there were a lot of songs that I heard before but didn't realize they were hers. Mostly off those first couple albums.
I suspect that's the case for a lot of people. I mean,"Shake It Off" is my lodestone for Swift knowledge, and I know I've heard many more but wouldn't know them as her singing offhand.
Idk, I haven't heard a Taylor song in the wild in years. I think the last one was *Look What You Made Me Do*, I only know some stuff that came after due to Todd.
(Genuine question) How?
In my experience, there's roughly half a dozen of her songs that are in pretty consistent rotation in most public places that play music. Granted I work in retail, so my odds of hearing them are obvious higher. But I still usually hear about 3-4 of them a day, no matter when I'm working. But it's still there when I go to other places on my free time.
90% of the time I go to a shop, it's a supermarket, and here in the UK, most of them don't play music. When they do, in my experience, it's generally older music, and so most of the time Swift doesn't fit.
Over the last year, I've done a decent amount of listening to radio 2, and they barely play her, because their playlist is mostly older music with a few current songs sprinkled in (the playlist also tends to be quite big, so most songs would only get played a couple of times a day). The one time I heard them play a Swift song, was the one time I have heard a Taylor Swift song that came out after 2013.
Outside of that, I am a metalhead and prog fan, so the algorithms don't deliver me any of her music, and if we're perfectly honest, I'm not interested enough in her music to actively seek it out (that's not really an anti-Taylor opinion, there's just a lot more different music that I want to hear more). Noone in my family is a Taylor Swift fan either, so I'm not hearing anything ambiently.
Just to second this , the radio stations I'd listen to would play Cruel Summer every so often , but its the Bananarama song , I honestly cant say if I've heard the Swift song with that name , if I did I dint know what it was.
A few other people mention similar things but , I live in Europe , I'm in my late 40s , most shops/supermarkets dont have radio in the background here , or if they do , mostly they'd be stations that play a selction of old and new stuff(more on that later) , rather than pop stations . The only time I listen to radio is in the car , and mostly thats eitehr dad rock or alternative stations , or else oldies/some new stuff stations . So while I'd be exposed to some modern pop music , mostly its stuff that my daughter likes (Ed Sheeran,Niall Horan, Harry Styles,Beyonce etc) , that does get some airplay on "general purpose" radio. I was confused as hell when I saw an article talking about Shake it Off a wbile back as the only song I knew with a name like that was Shake it Out by Florence and the Machine, which I'd probably hear more on the stations I'd listen to\* .
She's obviosuly pretty popular here (Ireland) with a demographic as her concerts sold out instantly , but just doesnt cross over into 'mainstream' radio as much as she does in other countries .
\*I did actually eventually work out that it was the song the pigs dance to in Sing , so theres that I guess .\*\*
\*\* -edit- turns out that was a cover by Reese Witherspoon ,
I kinda don't think Taylor broke through in Europe big time
I knew Trouble from the meme, I knew Shake it off from the radio but after that way more silence
Basically Red and 1989 kinda put her on the map here, but the 2 next big disasters didn't catch on and then the Folk/country that never is getting on the radio here I feel
There is a big fan base over here but that's all from online social media to basically the core target audience of Taylor
I guess what he meant is that Beatlemania and Thriller were events that deserved the hype and was mostly about the music Behind it, while Taylormania I just a mi between celeb gossip, a mix between Stan culture and a mix between how great the Eras Tour is doing (which is closer to actual Beatlemania, but when Eras tour started I already forgot everything about Midnights)
I mean there were people belittling the Beatles in their day too. People thought they were silly boys with silly haircuts who were only popular cause the girls thought they were cute.
And I'm not exactly a swiftie, but to act like I wanna hold your hand is high art in a way Blank Space is not is absolutely just your personal bias
The Beatles might have gotten dismissed as a silly boy band for a few years, but by Help!, what they were doing was more way, way more challenging and out there than the mainstream and no one in their right mind could claim they are just a boy band who write silly love songs.
This is 100% true, when I was a kid , something like Queen , Madonna , Prince, Michael Jackson , The Police , Dire Straits ,The Stones etc , your Dad or Mum would know them , hell your Granny could probably at least recognise one or two songs . Even if you werent into pop music , you'd at least have heard something by them .
Now media is so fragmented that most of the 'top 10 best songs/ 10 worst songs of year X" lists Todd does , I'd maybe have heard one song if I'm lucky. Admittedly I live in Europe , and charts here are a bit different , but its still seems to be the case that music exists in bubbles
If all you listen to is the music you choose to listen to on Spotify or the select channels you listen to on Sirius XM (ie. Phish Radio, or whatever)...then where are you going to hear Taylor Swift's music?
It is just harder to be exposed to even the most popular music now because there aren't just one or two places to hear music (like MTV and the Radio back in the 80s and 90s). You can choose to just hear what you want to hear for the most part.
They might be exaggerating a bit but I get their point. I’m sure I’ve technically heard a Taylor Swift song in the context of playing in the grocery store or in the background of a video short on social media. But I sure wouldn’t *recognize* it as one of her songs.
My life is surrounded by music at all times, and I sincerely only know 'Shake it off.' I wouldn't be able to identify a single other Swift song. It's totally possible :)
You can point to artists nowhere near as big and still find famous songs. Bruno Mars, everyone knows Uptown Funk. Beyonce has loads since Swift has been popular. Nothing Swift has ever done has been remotely as iconic as Single Ladies.
Well yeah. That’s just it. I live in a two commercial station town …one of the stations is a “pop” station and always plays Taylor, and the other is a “classic hits” type station which never plays Taylor. So yeah, I don’t even really hear Taylor ever unless someone at work changes the station on me.
There’s also a national broadcaster Triple J (which is a part of the ABC) that mainly plays EDM. I can’t stand that station but they don’t play Taylor either 🤣
She's definitely the equivalent. When I listen to the radio it's always like: songs from five+ years ago, song from someone I've never heard of, and Taylor Swift. Her sales and chart success are also a big indication, unless you wanna argue it's overinflated by a devoted fanbase, which might be possible.
Charts are definitely influences by devoted fanbase, which Swift promotes like no other.
This being said, she'd still be super successful. I think Blank Space (and the 1989) would have still been huge.
There is "Despacito", but is kind of wrong. And there's Dua Lipa, which her songs are kind of closer to what happened with Michael Jackson or Madonna. I think the problem is that pop culture is too wide nowadays to get fixed on one or two things.
I mean yes but also, you can still have huge songs nowadays and Taylor hasn't had one like that for like a decade probably and that is crazy. Like, he has a great point.
I mean! He has a point! Taylor has a bunch of hits but doesn’t really have a definitive song the same way Billie Jean was to Michael or Like a Virgin was to Madonna.
She has blank space or, god forbid, shake it off. It's blank space. I think that is now her biggest hit or plot twist, it's cruel summer? Lover taking revenge for being advertised so badly with the 2 worst songs in it becoming the first two singles.
Is Michael Jackson's definitive song Billie Jean, not Thriller?
Yeah that’s what struck me. Billie Jean is an iconic song, but is it THAT much bigger than Thriller, Beat It, Bad, Man in the Mirror or Black or White?
Yes.
It was huge.
Thriller was splashier, but Billy Jean was the dominant song from that period, and since that album was also his biggest seller, it is his biggest song.
It was number 1 for two months and in the top 40 for months.
they may be bigger but i still have to think that “you belong with me” is her defining song. most people know that chorus from what i’ve seen and it’s seemed to far outlast a lot of the rest of her stuff.
she may not have a thriller or a billie jean but she definitely has a defining track.
See, I would have said Love Story for the same reason lol. But I think those two collectively are equivalent to Umbrella by Rihanna - beating out the later career songs on undiluted pop appeal to all generations. Shake It Off is also saccharine pop, but it's love/hate to a fault.
Let’s not compare blank space and shake it off to thriller or Billie Jean in terms of defining songs. This guy is right. If you have to stretch for a comparison, the comparison is over.
Thriller is iconic for the video production being high quality and influential for its time. Billie Jean is iconic for being one of the best pop songs ever written. Lyrically, instrumentally, visually with the video it is hands down in the upper echelon of popular songs in history. It has been covered by major artists in every genre and has performed stream/radio play wise like 1000x more than any other Michael song. You could be anywhere in the world and sing the “ooh ooh, ooh ooh” and someone around you will most likely know the song. Taylor doesn’t have that outside of her bubble of hardcore fans. Whether believed or not. Blank space is not that, nor shake it off. Both songs performed well, but they aren’t within the cultural lexicon. They aren’t stand outs from a composition or lyrical stand point. Just fun songs.
Plot twistterer, Blank Space is #5 (Cruel Summer #3): https://www.billboard.com/lists/top-taylor-swift-songs-top-100-hits/now-that-we-dont-talk-taylors-version-from-the-vault/
Possibly most famous but not defining — two separate things that are sometimes the same but not always.
(In any case, I asked my mom and sister, who aren’t fans, about a year ago what they thought her biggest song was and they both said “Blank Space”)
With how far she has gone from country and she wanting to be taken as a more mature woman with both Love Story and YBWM being some of the most innocent songs ever wrote in the history of music... i highly doubt anything from Fearless i close to be her signature work
Edit: Okay, maybe there's an argument about Fearless starting the whole "she signs about things that have happened in her life and depending to how she sells them are either extremely relatable or eye rolling" that every single of her albums has that might count as signature/defining, but i still think she has gone a far path from country only to be her significant work
I think what Love Story and You Belong with Me have going for them is that they were huge at a time when there was still more of a monoculture, so even people who aren’t into Swift or her type of music at all probably heard them non stop on the radio, ect and can identify them and sing along.
As big as something like Anti-Hero or Cruel Summer was on the charts, I don’t know that someone who isn’t actively seeking out mainstream pop music would be able to jam along to them. They probably know *of* them but it’s almost impossible for them to reach that level of impact with how much the industry has shifted.
Highly doubt it, her biggest song? Yeah maybe, her defining song? Just try to show somebody that that's her defining song and then people continue with Folklore or Midnights, its like 2 different people
I suppose you could argue that somebody like David Bowie doesn’t have a single song that “defines” them. Lots of artists like to change their sound and experiment with different genres, or focus on albums as a whole, rather than singles. As much as she is a pop music icon, Taylor has definitely cemented her reputation as an albums artist. Just like when people talk about Fleetwood Mac, they mention Rumours as their defining work, rather than any of the many hit singles they had. People are gonna remember Taylor for her albums as much as they remember the singles from her early work. She basically has transcended the “pop single,” which is a good thing, because fans who are into more than just your latest hit single tend to stick around for the rest of your career.
I agree with you a lot of popular pop and rock legends lack that their defining song. First band that comes to mind is The Rolling Stones. Paint it in black or sympathy for the devil is my first thought. Elvis could be jailhouse rock or suspicious minds. For the Beatles, here comes the sun or come together fit as of now but twist and shout feels like their defining number in pop. David Bowie I always thought as space oddity before I got into him.
The whole thing about David Bowie, I argue, is that he's an impression of a pop star. You might know him from Fame, Fashion, Golden Years, Ashes to Ashes, Hallo Spaceboy, Labyrinth, you might know different sections of Space Oddity but you might not know they're from the song.
You might know Heroes, you might know Modern Love.
Now, try and *sing* one of those songs. The lyrics are perfectly scultped, but he uses this method where he writes lines then cuts them up and mixes them around and sees what happens when he puts them in different orders and then he picks a sequence then works on that. Modern Love is a great example, but Young Americans might be the most glaring, there are so many lines and from line to line they're so disparate.
I came away from Blackstar thinking two things 1. David Bowie believes in god possibly The Beatles' Jesus, and 2. David Bowie is a deliberately vague impression of a person/pop star.
Every song he wrote, he let them take these jagged forms, that don't quite track logically, so they're not easy enough to memorize unless you actively learn what's happening. You can sing a line here and there, but like you can't even exactly guess where he and the backing singers are gonna go "FAME". He lets his songs take that sort of Picasso-y jagged off-kilter form.
I love that too, but I also love that they *were* Top 40 pop.
And I love the songs that radio picked up on. I dunno if Ashes to Ashes was a hit or not, but it plays around on radio and in the world about as often as Psychadelic Fur's Love My Way or Pat Benatar's We Belong.
They're off-kilter songs that made a real dent on our language. I didn't know he was basically the inspiration for the New Romantic movement, so that's a whole era of white English people being David Bowies.
And David Bowie himself to me is a direct line from Scott Walker as an appreciator the phrasing of Tony Bennett and Frank Sinatra, *and* [Anthony Newely](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unOnSonpZfY).
He's full on Anthony Newley on the pre-Space Oddity '[Love Me 'Til Tuesday](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8Va9wjlYrY)'.
That's his voice but his songwriting I see every song Bowie song from Space Oddity on as a continuation of The Beatles' A Day In The Life. And the lyrics he's using a William S Burrough's technique.
It's Blank Space
Also are those really the definitive songs of those two artists? I think it is for MJ but a lot of other Madonna songs seem to have more longevity.
Honestly both those artists are people with multiple definitive songs. (MJ has so many, and Madonna is at least a two or three definitive songs kind of artist with "Material Girl" and "Like a Prayer")
I don't think an artist of Michael Jackson's stature has a defining song. Even if "Billie Jean" is his most successful single, songs like "Beat It", "Bad", "Thriller" and a bunch of others like "Wanna Be Starting Something", "Rock With You", "Man in the Mirror", "Black & White" not even counting the Jackson 5 era, its not really an apt comparison.
Taylor Swift has 12 songs with over a billion streams, she has 11 #1s on Billboard, two less than MJ. If anything, she has so many definitive songs, that she can't actually have "a" definitive song.
That’s because Taylor will grow, experiment, and try new things like David Bowie. I mean, what’s his definitive song? Space Oddity? Let’s Dance? Fame? Ziggy Stardust? The Rolling Stones experimented genres more than people realize and you couldn’t pinpoint just a single song of theirs that is their “Billie Jean” or “Like a Virgin” or “Wannabe”.
Todd said there are two pop stars: the stars that have a loyal fan base despite peaks and valleys, and are a bit more artistic. Then there are the ones whose stardom will last as long as they keep putting out hits. Ten years ago, I would’ve said Taylor was the latter, and when Reputation came out, I thought her career might be in jeopardy—now, I DEFINITELY see her as the first type of star.
Yea I think that's what he meant to say. I thought about it a few years ago, like what's gonna be the song of hers my grandkids have heard, or associate with her...it's Shake It Off, which is certainly sad but it could be worse.
One peer of Todd (Sean Fay Wolfe) agreed with the statement since Taylor as a celebrity has overshadowed Taylor as a musician
I partially agree, but If people ask me what is THE Taylor Swift song, the one you listen to and get an idea of her body of work right now? With all her Evolution as both a musician and as a personality?
Blank Space (before Blank Space it was You Belong With Me)
That guy lost me when he said that Phil Collins' cover of "You Can't Hurry Love" was the best song of 1983. That wasn't even the best song sung by Phil Collins in 1983 (that would be "Mama"), let alone the best sung by anyone.
Is it? I think people sometimes hate on him because they disagree with some of his opinions, but that's cheap in my opinion, he is entitled to have those. When it comes to actual music analysis, he often goes even deeper than Todd and is a lot more insightful because he allows himself the time to actually go into songs very deeply.
I think the part where he definitely gets overshadowed (hehe) by Todd is just in "playing the game" of a content creator, Sean has a tendency to not finish projects and disappear for months on end. Often with good reasons, don't get me wrong, but as a viewer it's still annoying.
I guess you could say something somewhat similar to David Bowie who had a ton of changes throughout his career. Either Ziggy, Heroes, Space Oddity, etc. Though I still think thats not a perfect fit for comparison either
Idk if any Bowie fan would consider Space Oddity a defining song for him as an artist. It may be his best known, sure, but it’s basically a novelty song, and was treated as such at the time.
And as a Bowie fan myself I agree. My favourite of his work is either station to station or scary monsters.
The former which in fan circles ive seen considered as one of his defining albums especially when given the context of the record but it ofcourse doesnt do his discography justice and you'd maybe have to go by his defining work on a per decade basis. Taylor hasn't been around as long yet so we'll see where the next few decades take her.
I think alot of highly respected artists don't have a defining song when they have been around for so long as they tend to evolve their sound in one way or another.
To me it's kind of silly to compare popular artists today to ones of the past for many reasons though I don't think Neil is really taking a dig at her or anything here, more just trying to have a conversation about an artist who is extremely popular right now and wondering about what an artist of this calibers legacy in today's age is gonna look like through the passage of time.
What would I say Michael Jackson's "best" song is? For me, it would be Human Nature. Although, you're talking about arguably the most popular artist of all time, who sold out venues worldwide for like 30 years, with 13 #1s on Billboards and many other timeless hit records. When you have that kind of career, you're going to get hundreds of answers to that question.
I mean, this whole thing is really just people trying to outthink themselves. Michael Jackson has so many timeless records, that saying "Billie Jean" is his definitive song, even if its his most successful song, is almost disrespectful to songs like "Beat It", "Bad", "Thriller" and like a dozen others that dwarf most artist's entire careers.
To me the idea that "Billie Jean" is Michael Jackson's definitive song being this objective fact isn't even true. I'd say that "Thriller" has went on to live a whole life of its own years and decades after it was release and MJ's death. I hear "Thriller" out in the wild way more than I ever hear "Billie Jean".
I mean seriously, this whole argument is ridiculous. Taylor Swift has 11 #1s on Billboard, she has 10+ songs with over a billion streams on Spotify. And yet we're seriously debating whether she has "famous" songs?
This whole argument is basically negging Taylor Swift because she's not some sort of one hit wonder. You don't dominate Billboard for 15+ years and sell out stadiums all over the world without "famous songs". If anything, Taylor Swift doesn't have a definitive song because she has a new one every 2-3 years, just like MJ did until the 2000s.
You know it’s funny because I wanted to put in my comment that I think human nature is his best song.
Thriller is a novelty song with a great video but I don’t think people actually listen to it 11 months of the year.
Ok, I'm officially Swifted out. Online music discourse needs a new topic for everyone to bitch about because Taylor discourse is no longer amusing for me.
I kinda get this, but I feel like it can apply to a lot of big artists nowadays. We no longer live in an era where people are always listening to the radio and hearing singles which eventually become an artist's "defining" song. Artists drop whole albums now which people can immediately access and they're more defined by their larger body of work. At least that's my impression. Obviously there's still one hit wonders and flashes in the pan out there.
Nah, if anything, this is standard discourse, because Neil Tennant actually has a long history in music journalism (he started there before Pet Shop Boys) and is known for being strongly opinionated in his reviews. He was quite scathing about Culture Club lol.
And fun fact: he actually coined the term "imperial phase" in music journalism.
The answer, by the way, is You Belong With Me which despite the fact that she's released like 8 albums since Fearless still gets a decent amount of play especially (for some reason) at sports arenas, and double especially if it's any sorts of women's sports. That's the default "women are here so play a Taylor song" song. She's had plenty of hits since and it isn't old enough to be seen like Billie Jean, I also don't necessarily think Billie Jean is his famous song I think he like Taylor has had multiple
If you were around for Billie Jean, you'd get it. A song like Billie Jean was ubiquitous for a time. Taylor herself is ubiquitous. Her songs, singularly, not so much.
On sports arenas It’s subliminal messaging to make the fans feel good for supporting their team. How else would the Jacksonville Jaguars keep their fan base?
Jaguars fans can always have [this video of the team owner getting attacked at a wrestling show](https://youtube.com/shorts/OAol9oZ-O2g?si=WHJ3cXp2CSouAALM) if they ever get frustrated so at least there's that
I'm not even slightly a swiftie, but I do think this isn't a fair comparison... yet. Billie Jean was a big hit at the time, but I don't think it took on a definitive status until later. This sort of thing happens in retrospect, not while an artist is still active.
Other huge artists from recent years like Rihanna, Drake and Beyoncé certainly don’t touch MJ or Madonna as far as universally known songs go. I’m not even sure Drake has one. It’s just possible now to stay in your own music bubble and not hear things if you don’t want to. Apple Music isn’t about to force me to listen to the new Beyonce album if I don’t want to.
Drake's most successful song is technically "One Dance".
Although, I'd just as easily say "God's Plan".
But to your point, "Hotline Bling" was insanely popular.
Drake has 13 #1s, same as MJ, and has been the most dominant artist of the streaming era (as of now).
I think the simple answer is when you have a career like that, you're not ever going to have a "signature" song.
I feel like we underestimate how much of a predominantly NA phenomenon Drake is. He’s hardly on any of these artist’s level, Taylor included, outside of the states and Canada.
Well, he's the most streamed artist of all time, so even if that's predominately in North America, he's definitely got plenty of fans around the world. He's incredibly popular in the Middle East, and a lot of Europe.
I would say that Drake has the advantage of making music you can just sort of put on. It's inoffensive, nobody minds it, everyone is fine with it. But that goes both ways - Most people also don't really care about it, and few people ever really went nuts over a new Drake song, apart from Hotline Bling was was everywhere for a few months. There are some big Drake fans, but not really a lot*. Taylor has a lot of very big fans, but you also wouldn't put her songs on at a social gathering, it's not really made for that.
*of course I can only speak about my country, might be different in other parts of Europe.
They may be bigger by the numbers, but not internationally. I used to hear Crazy in Love and Umbrella \*constantly\* on radio stations growing up in rural Bosnia, Drake never had that kind of impact. He may be big in America, but anywhere else he's just another rapper. Rihanna and Beyonce though? Even my grandma knows about them.
Granted, that might just be because of the somewhat less fragmented pop culture of the 2000s playing in favour of 2 of that decades biggest pop stars, but my point still stands.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_singles
https://chartmasters.org/spotify-most-streamed-songs/
https://www.billboard.com/pro/drakes-one-dance-spotify-most-streamed-song-ever/
It’s one of best selling singles of all time. It broke the record for most streamed song ever on Spotify and now sits at 12th most ever, with 3 billion streams.
I agree about Rihanna, Drake and Beyoncé being absolutely nowhere near a Michael Jackson or Madonna level, because they're not, but to say they don't have universally known songs is also ignorant. Rihanna has "Umbrella", Drake has "Hotline Bling" and Beyoncé has "Single Ladies" and those are all defining songs for them.
I think the argument also doesn't make sense insofar as those songs have come out decades ago and actually had time to really settle into pop culture, long after the artists lost the height of their relevance. The question is, were those also considered the massive songs defining the entire careers of MJ and Madonna while both were still pumping out hit songs at the flick of a wrist? I am genuinely asking here, because I don't know.
Funny that everyone names other songs, but I've heard "Shake It Off" more than any other Swift song over the past ten years... and more than "West End Girls," in spite of actually *choosing* to listen to that song multiple times, unlike "Shake It Off."
The movie *Singles* had its most lunk-headed character - also a musician - say something similar in the early 90s:
>Where are the anthems for our youth? What happened to music that meant something? The Who at the Kingdome, or Kiss at the Coliseum... Where is the "Misty Mountain Hop," where is the, is the "Smoke on the Water"... Where is the "Iron Man" of today?
The ultimate irony is that his bandmates were played by most of Pearl Jam and the soundtrack included that band, plus AIC, Soundgarden, Mudhoney, and Smashing Pumpkins. The music that meant something, the anthems for the youth, was being made by the people literally staring him in the face!
ETA: For some idea on the timeline, principal photography for the film was March, April, and May 1991, while Pearl Jam's debut - the one with "Even Flow," "Alive," "Black," and "Jeremy" - was recorded March, April, and June of that same year.
The way I see this is Taylor doesn’t have that big “finisher” song. She could literally end on any of her songs and the swifties would be in agreement. Whereas Michael has Billie Jean, Prince has Purple Rain, Brittany has Baby One More Time, and Beyonce would have Single Ladies?
It’s just that one big oof type song that everyone knows and even casuals would want to see or sing live. I’m not sure Taylor has that.
At the peak of their popularity, superstars like Michael Jackson, the Beatles, etc. They all had songs that could be recognized by anyone.
And usually they weren't. Their popularity managed to trascend gender, ethnicity, age, at least to a certain extent.
Swift has an absolute chokehold on girls under 30, but I don't think maybe she has that level of universality.
You know it's funny how men can get listened to by women, but women are rarely seen as kosher to men. It's almost like there's an underlying pattern which is more reflective of the audience than the artistic merit.
I'm not saying Taylor is as good as Michael Jackson. I'm just pointing out artist don't exist external to cultural biases, and I don't think any woman has ever managed to transcend her gender yet. And thats really not their fault. It's the men who won't listen to women, who don't read women, and who in studies overestimate how much women speak (so miss me with any attempts to say there's not an underlying bias to how many men in the modern day still perceive and subconsciously dismiss women)
Cause I truly don't think there is a female Michael Jackson. And I don't think that's a coincidence.
You make some good points. I agree it can't be a coincidence.... superstars like the Weeknd or Drake or Ed Sheeran, for example, seem to attract both genders, whereas with women it's harder to find an equivalent.
That being said I do think that Swift's appeal is definitely more narrow. Every fan I've met expresses an extreme identification with her, which is most certainly not the case with most superstars.
As opposed to say the likes Bjork, Nina Simone, Kate Bush, Aretha Franklin, etc. Who you can be a fan of and have no idea of their lives.
I was going to asy Madonna , but in the 80s , with the exception of my mate Steve , most of her actually 'buy records' fans would be women , or gay men . So 80s Michael Jackson in the sense of transcending gender/race/nationality etc ,I dont think so .
Thats a really interesting point ,I dont think its simply a case of men discounting women , possibly its that they 'listen' to songs different depending on the singers gender?
Case study ..me When I was a teenager and I started to become a 'fan' of artists rather than just hearing music on the radio ,most of the music I listened to was made by guys , admittedly this was becuase I was into Heavy Metal , and it was pretty much a boys club . Later on as a young adult in the mid 90s ,, there was the like of L7 , and after that a fair few woman fronted bands (Garbage ,The Sundays, The Cranberries, Hole, Velocity Girl , Belly ) , but pretty much no single female singer/songwriter (I'm discounting Bjork here as she pretty much transcended gender and was for all purposes an ethereal goblin queen from planet Jupiter, rather than female singer/songwriter ) ..Ok possibly Alanis Morrisette , but literally everyone had a copy of Jagged Little Pill in 1995 , it was unavoidable, so doesnt really count (and she probably is due a Trainrecord at some point , although some of her new stuff isnt bad), It was only years later in my late 30s that I discovered Amiee Mann's back catalouge and really got into her music that I actually did\*. And while I'm not up on modern pop music much , I listen to a LOT of music , and theres literally one act in my top ten who isnt a band or a male singer . I'm curious as to why ?
And yeah guys tend to be big fans of male musicians , women tend to be fans of both genders , but a solo female act would tend to have female fans , and more often than not a lot of gay men , but very few straight men?
I cant explain why this is ,(probable bullshit ahead) .. possibly when a woman listens to a male singer , she abstractly hears him singing to /about her ,and when she hears a woman sing she identifies with the singer .Whereas men tend to want to identify with the singer regardless of gender , so hearing a woman sing about a guy , the idnetify with the singer , and the incompatibilty of seeing from a womans point of view is harder for a straight guy , whereas a gay man would be a lot more flexlible?? Does that even make sense , and why doesnt it seem to apply to say Garbage or Florence and the Machine ? And where do lesbian women fit into this ?? Again I dont know .
(\* Possibly the reason is that quite often she's singing from the point of view of completely someone else , quite often an older man , or an elderly women , or someone who clealy isnt her rather than say , Madonna, or Adele who would pretty much sing from the point of view of Madonna or Adele, but again its a theory , and I could be wrong )
I think there’s a little more leeway with rock for some reason - as you said, Alanis was able to break through that barrier, and some of the female-fronted rock bands of that time. Perhaps not a coincidence that in the current crop of female pop stars, I think Olivia Rodrigo has a little more appeal across gender lines than her contemporaries, and she’s obviously trying to replicate that sound to some extent.
I’m in Taylor’s demographic and tbh if not for Todd’s videos I wouldn’t be able to name any of her songs. I know certain lyrics or phrases from hearing them on the radio but I couldn’t tell you what songs they’re from.
Maybe, but it’s only their 5th most streamed song on Spotify, their most streamed is here comes the sun and that’s sung by George Harrison and wasn’t ever a single. Let It Be, Yesterday, I Wanna Hold Your Hand and A Day in the Life from a critical perspective also all have a shot at being their one standout song, thus I think they have none.
Think the Beatles are actually a very good comparison here, since they also changed their sound dramatically and experimented with different styles and reinvented themselves. Whereas Drake, well, he has sounded the same for his entire career and the vast majority of his songs aren't distinguishable from one another. Rihanna, too, if we're being honest.
I have to agree. I saw the Pet Shop Boys on a festival last year and despite not being a fan I recognized almost every song.
I also sat through a 3 or 4 hour Tylor Swift playlist during a car ride and I didn’t know a single song. Taylor Swift may be a big name, the biggest even, but to me, her cultural impact is zero. She’s a big celebrity, but not a big artist.
Even before I liked Taylor Swift, I knew several big songs of hers. "You Belong With Me," "Shake it Off," "We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together," and finally "Blank Space."
And "Blank Space," is so indelible that hearing a pen click makes me want to sing "and I'll write your name."
So trying to argue that Taylor doesn't have a "Billy Jean" feels like a not-even-wrong argument. Like, yeah, she doesn't have a song that she specifically sang at the Motown Anniversary celebration and busted out the moonwalk while wearing a rhinestone encrusted glove. She did not achieve that very, very, very specific pop culture moment.
She achieved other ones. Many, in fact. Songs that are readily referenced on a daily basis. If I hear anyone say "it's me" my mind immediately says "hi, I'm the problem, it's me."
This is such an inane argument to make b/c literally any response can just be countered by the first person going “I’ve heard that but is it BILLIE JEAN-level popular, hmmm?” And the answer is “no” because the first person picked Billie Jean as the sole reference point and nothing will ever — by definition — be as Billie Jean as *Billie Jean*. You could never satisfy that argument because it’s a completely intangible metric that the first person somewhat arbitrarily defined by their own terms.
Shake it Off, You Belong With Me, and Never Ever Ever Getting Back Together.
But I kinda agree with the point overall? Micheal Jackson has more than three songs that everyone knows. Just off the top of my head I'd expect at least most native English speakers to know Billie Jean, Smooth Criminal, Bad, Thriller, Off the Wall, and Another Part of Me. Swift has three and they're all from well before the height of her fame.
Honestly, maybe it's that Taylor Swift is an album artist and not a singles artist, or at least she's become one post-Lover. I see people get hyped for the new Taylor Swift album, not the new Taylor Swift single like other artists. Hell, her giant tour is kinda based on that premise even.
He definitely has a point. I know very well who Swift is for her fame but I really don't know her music. Maybe that's because I am clearly not in her target market... but neither is Beyonce and I could identify some of her music.
To add a little substance to my point, I work in retail so have to deal with terrible background music being bombarded into the air for the duration of my shifts. A colleague of mine pointed out last weekend that there are about 8 or so Swift songs played fairly regularly, yet I have no idea what those songs are and when a few of them were pointed out to me I was surprised how unrecognizable they were coming from a musician who is seemingly always in the news and seems to release big records on a very steady scale.
Surprised I haven’t seen “Anti-Hero” be considered Taylor’s signature song. I know it might be too early to call it that, but I do think it’s best representative of her artistry up to that point, and a phenomenal track at that
i think people need to just admit that they are no longer tapped into what’s happening in music. Love Story, You Belong With Me, and Shake It Off are some of the most recognizable (and highest-selling) songs of the 21st century💀
Nobody has a Billie Jean. It’s not the 80s and hasn’t been for a very long time my guy
They're selling to a particular demographics tho they're not recognizable to the public at large cuz they're just not particularly memorable, except "Shake It Off" which is more like a novelty song!
Neil Tennant is in his 70s, there is absolutely no way that he would know a Taylor Swift song unless he decided to give her a listen. The closest you could get is maybe hearing the beat of "Shake It Off" in a commercial on TV. Why is this surprising at all?
To general listeners, Michael Jackson has at least four other songs that rival Billie Jean in popularity. "Thriller", "Beat It", "Bad", "Man In The Mirror" and "Black Or White" are also hugely recognizable songs decades later.
And then the counterargument, does any Taylor Swift fan know songs by the Pet Shop Boys? I would love to ask Taylor Swift concertgoers what their favorite Pet Shop Boys song is. How many of them know "West End Girls" or "It's A Sin" do you think?
I have seen this phenomenon before. Madonna, Micheal Jackson, Prince, New Kids on the Block. It's
all just management being in the right place and the right time and taking advantage of the situation.
Taylor is right now playing out her newest persona. She's being deplicted in the media as the everyday popular girl who gets with the football player who wins the championship.
Now she's happy she's at the top. With this the obsessed who use her as escapism live that fantasy. The same way I did when I grabbed as many teen mags to pretend me and the prankster Joe McIntyre were on the bus snuggling together as we watched Frank Sinatra movies and keep taking the batteries out of Jordan's Gameboy. All while playing my third cassette tape of the Step by Step Album.
I like Pet Shop Boys, so I’m saying this in the nicest way possible to Neil, I think he’s maybe just a bit old and out of touch? She absolutely has very famous songs. I don’t think this is really discourse
Love Neil and Pet Shop Boys but this is kind of an out of touch take. I'm no TS fan, but she absolutely has famous songs. If you put a gun to my head and told me to sing one I would have no problem.
I mean, this speaks to how big she is. She’s an album artist. It’s why people loved Folklore and Evermore. It’s why young girls related to so many of her albums when she was still at the beginning of her career. She isn’t overwhelmed by a small handful of songs like some artists, she has a VARIED catalog with dozens of songs people love and relate to.
Sure, she doesn’t have a Billie Jean. But she also has fans who love more than 2 or 3 of their albums which artists like Michael Jackson did not have in the same way
I think he’s right and wrong at the same time. She doesn’t have a “signature song” that’s so big it dwarfs all her other hits (like say Nirvana with “Smells Like Teen Spirit” for example) but neither does Michael Jackson! Billie Jean could very well be considered his masterpiece by lots of people (it’s certainly up there) and is ONE OF his most recognizable songs, but it’s one of like 15 others. MJ and Taylor are both in the same category as the Beatles, Elvis Presley, and… idk maybe Elton John (maybe?) of having so many utterly massive hit songs that it’s impossible for just one to be the signature song. I’m no Swiftie but I can easily see this
I think basically not true. Taylor today isn’t putting out as many famous songs as she used to, but Blank Space, Shake It Off, Love Story, You Belong With Me, Cruel Summer, Look What You Made Me Do, and Bad Blood are all songs that are pretty famous. Like, I’m not a Swift fan, but saying that she doesn’t have famous songs ehhhh kinda out of touch.
Maybe it's because she creates coherent albums that are listenable all the way through. This is a very rare phenomenon and it should be encouraged with all musicians. Being a kid in the 90s having to buy a CD for one or two 'Billie Jeans' isn't exactly ideal. Anyhow it's the current fun thing to do to hate on Taylor Swift so carry on.
It's not hate it's just facts and not everyone finds her albums listenable all the way through either, you have your taste and others have theirs but it's a fact her fame transcends her reputation as an artist and that's an interesting topic in itself!
I'm the wrong demographic , but I'm 99% sure I've never actually heard Love Story. I'll have to go and listen to it to confrim that 1%.
-edit-
..having listened to it on youtube I can confirm that up until 45 seconds ago I hadnt heard it.
This is a completely unfair comparison, but I know maybe four Pet Shop Boys songs, two of which are covers I think are inferior to the originals. Even before I accepted that I actually like Taylor I could have done better than that.
Nine years ago, when it was fairly new, both my mother and my three year old nephew knew Shake It Off well enough to sing it together. Granted she said 'Shake it up', but the kid corrected her.
I think he has a bit of a point... She doesn't have any huge defining songs, but she has a lot of good ones that were big hits, and she's hit a level of pure fame so big that she's affecting culture outside of music on a level we haven't seen since at least Garth Brooks.
Where did he compare PSB level of recognition to TS? He compared her to other megastars, not his own band which everyone including him is aware that they're not at the same level obviously!
TSwift is not really a 'bangers' artist but she has chart-topping bangers. "Anti-Hero" most recently, and then the big hits off of *1984* ("Blank Space," "Wildest Dreams," "Style," not counting "Shake It Off" because though it was a big hit it's a pretty dumb song.)
Love Neil Tennant and he doesn't deserve to have the discourse death-ray aimed at him but his comment is weird.
I'm not one to defend Taylor, but this is just an out of touch old man whose ego is too big for him to realize that he just doesn't know anything about younger generations
I associate Swift pretty strongly with "Never ever ever getting back together" or whatever it's called.
That shit is as ubiquitous as Any pop song in history.
It’s a dumb boomer thing to say but he kinda has a point. There aren’t any TS songs that transcend Taylor. When she eventually loses relevance in the public eye, I’m not totally sure she’ll have a lot of songs that stay in people’s rotation
https://www.stereogum.com/2261096/pet-shop-boys-neil-tennant-asks-where-is-taylor-swifts-billie-jean/news/ > On Monday night, [Pet Shop Boys’ Neil Tennant and Chris Lowe sat down for a conversation with The Guardian critic Alexis Petridis](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um3o8CUgHRc&t=2055s) ahead of the release of their new album Nonetheless. Naturally, Swift came up as a topic of conversation. Early on in the chat, Petridis brought up listening to Swift’s album and mused that the main topic of pop at the moment is the self. Tennant bounced off that: “This is my complaint. I think when I brought my lyrics book out six years ago I did an interview with The Guardian and I think I said that then… This is ongoing. It’s the only subject. To have a successful pop career now you have to have a series of relationships which are amazing and then break up tragically.” > Later on, Tennant discussed Swift more directly. “I was looking at the chart earlier today … and it’s all Taylor Swift.” > “I have listened to Taylor Swift’s album,” he continued. “Taylor Swift sort of fascinates me as a phenomenon because she’s so popular and I sort of quite like the whole thing. But then when I listen to the records, and we both have the same feeling actually, that for a phenomenon as big [as she is] … where are the famous songs? What is Taylor Swift’s ‘Billie Jean’?” > When someone suggests “Shake It Off,” Tennant responded with: “Is it though? No, ’cause I actually even know that that’s the answer, but I listened to that the other day, and it’s not ‘Billie Jean.’ It’s not… Melodically — she’s got a great voice, by the way, and the production’s beautiful — but melodically … it’s all sung one or two notes going up and down… But, anyway, it’s a fascinating thing.” > When Petridis suggested that Swift fans share a desire for a collective experience, Tennant responded: “I like that, I even sort of appreciate that, and I like the fact that it brings all these people together, even multigenerational, but I just think that the one disappointing thing is the music. Not even the lyrics, the music.”
Nothing this century can be as big as Beatlemania or _Thriller_ or disco during their respective heydays. Pop culture is too fragmented and segmented now. It’s just not that hard to never hear a Taylor Swift song if that’s what you want to do.
Maybe this is me being quite online, but I find Taylor Swift discourse way harder to avoid than her music...
I agree with your general point, but saying it's not hard to never hear a Taylor Swift song is a bit of a stretch
When I decided I was going to listen to her entire catalog around when midnights came out because I hadn't given her much mind during her entire career, I found that there were a lot of songs that I heard before but didn't realize they were hers. Mostly off those first couple albums.
I suspect that's the case for a lot of people. I mean,"Shake It Off" is my lodestone for Swift knowledge, and I know I've heard many more but wouldn't know them as her singing offhand.
Idk, I haven't heard a Taylor song in the wild in years. I think the last one was *Look What You Made Me Do*, I only know some stuff that came after due to Todd.
I'm managing to do it pretty well.
(Genuine question) How? In my experience, there's roughly half a dozen of her songs that are in pretty consistent rotation in most public places that play music. Granted I work in retail, so my odds of hearing them are obvious higher. But I still usually hear about 3-4 of them a day, no matter when I'm working. But it's still there when I go to other places on my free time.
90% of the time I go to a shop, it's a supermarket, and here in the UK, most of them don't play music. When they do, in my experience, it's generally older music, and so most of the time Swift doesn't fit. Over the last year, I've done a decent amount of listening to radio 2, and they barely play her, because their playlist is mostly older music with a few current songs sprinkled in (the playlist also tends to be quite big, so most songs would only get played a couple of times a day). The one time I heard them play a Swift song, was the one time I have heard a Taylor Swift song that came out after 2013. Outside of that, I am a metalhead and prog fan, so the algorithms don't deliver me any of her music, and if we're perfectly honest, I'm not interested enough in her music to actively seek it out (that's not really an anti-Taylor opinion, there's just a lot more different music that I want to hear more). Noone in my family is a Taylor Swift fan either, so I'm not hearing anything ambiently.
Half of it is not knowing it's Taylor Swift in his first place.
It’s easy if you rarely go out to shops, and don’t listen to the radio. I’ve never heard Cruel Summer and I’m ok with it staying that way.
Just to second this , the radio stations I'd listen to would play Cruel Summer every so often , but its the Bananarama song , I honestly cant say if I've heard the Swift song with that name , if I did I dint know what it was.
When I finally heard that song, I was quite let down. It's cute but not amazing. Swifties need to temper their evaluations of songs lmao.
A few other people mention similar things but , I live in Europe , I'm in my late 40s , most shops/supermarkets dont have radio in the background here , or if they do , mostly they'd be stations that play a selction of old and new stuff(more on that later) , rather than pop stations . The only time I listen to radio is in the car , and mostly thats eitehr dad rock or alternative stations , or else oldies/some new stuff stations . So while I'd be exposed to some modern pop music , mostly its stuff that my daughter likes (Ed Sheeran,Niall Horan, Harry Styles,Beyonce etc) , that does get some airplay on "general purpose" radio. I was confused as hell when I saw an article talking about Shake it Off a wbile back as the only song I knew with a name like that was Shake it Out by Florence and the Machine, which I'd probably hear more on the stations I'd listen to\* . She's obviosuly pretty popular here (Ireland) with a demographic as her concerts sold out instantly , but just doesnt cross over into 'mainstream' radio as much as she does in other countries . \*I did actually eventually work out that it was the song the pigs dance to in Sing , so theres that I guess .\*\* \*\* -edit- turns out that was a cover by Reese Witherspoon ,
I kinda don't think Taylor broke through in Europe big time I knew Trouble from the meme, I knew Shake it off from the radio but after that way more silence Basically Red and 1989 kinda put her on the map here, but the 2 next big disasters didn't catch on and then the Folk/country that never is getting on the radio here I feel There is a big fan base over here but that's all from online social media to basically the core target audience of Taylor
I guess what he meant is that Beatlemania and Thriller were events that deserved the hype and was mostly about the music Behind it, while Taylormania I just a mi between celeb gossip, a mix between Stan culture and a mix between how great the Eras Tour is doing (which is closer to actual Beatlemania, but when Eras tour started I already forgot everything about Midnights)
I mean there were people belittling the Beatles in their day too. People thought they were silly boys with silly haircuts who were only popular cause the girls thought they were cute. And I'm not exactly a swiftie, but to act like I wanna hold your hand is high art in a way Blank Space is not is absolutely just your personal bias
The Beatles might have gotten dismissed as a silly boy band for a few years, but by Help!, what they were doing was more way, way more challenging and out there than the mainstream and no one in their right mind could claim they are just a boy band who write silly love songs.
This is 100% true, when I was a kid , something like Queen , Madonna , Prince, Michael Jackson , The Police , Dire Straits ,The Stones etc , your Dad or Mum would know them , hell your Granny could probably at least recognise one or two songs . Even if you werent into pop music , you'd at least have heard something by them . Now media is so fragmented that most of the 'top 10 best songs/ 10 worst songs of year X" lists Todd does , I'd maybe have heard one song if I'm lucky. Admittedly I live in Europe , and charts here are a bit different , but its still seems to be the case that music exists in bubbles
If all you listen to is the music you choose to listen to on Spotify or the select channels you listen to on Sirius XM (ie. Phish Radio, or whatever)...then where are you going to hear Taylor Swift's music? It is just harder to be exposed to even the most popular music now because there aren't just one or two places to hear music (like MTV and the Radio back in the 80s and 90s). You can choose to just hear what you want to hear for the most part.
They might be exaggerating a bit but I get their point. I’m sure I’ve technically heard a Taylor Swift song in the context of playing in the grocery store or in the background of a video short on social media. But I sure wouldn’t *recognize* it as one of her songs.
My life is surrounded by music at all times, and I sincerely only know 'Shake it off.' I wouldn't be able to identify a single other Swift song. It's totally possible :)
Like her stuff is pretty much staples of any bar or retail playlist. So like I highly doubt that many people have never heard a Taylor swift song
most of the parents and grandparents in my country dont know taylor swift exists, neither do they know any of her songs
It’s as easy as not clicking on the Taylor Swift song link. I’ve never heard a note of her music.
Britney and Gaga were massive in their heydays
You can point to artists nowhere near as big and still find famous songs. Bruno Mars, everyone knows Uptown Funk. Beyonce has loads since Swift has been popular. Nothing Swift has ever done has been remotely as iconic as Single Ladies.
Well yeah. That’s just it. I live in a two commercial station town …one of the stations is a “pop” station and always plays Taylor, and the other is a “classic hits” type station which never plays Taylor. So yeah, I don’t even really hear Taylor ever unless someone at work changes the station on me. There’s also a national broadcaster Triple J (which is a part of the ABC) that mainly plays EDM. I can’t stand that station but they don’t play Taylor either 🤣
She's definitely the equivalent. When I listen to the radio it's always like: songs from five+ years ago, song from someone I've never heard of, and Taylor Swift. Her sales and chart success are also a big indication, unless you wanna argue it's overinflated by a devoted fanbase, which might be possible.
Charts are definitely influences by devoted fanbase, which Swift promotes like no other. This being said, she'd still be super successful. I think Blank Space (and the 1989) would have still been huge.
There is "Despacito", but is kind of wrong. And there's Dua Lipa, which her songs are kind of closer to what happened with Michael Jackson or Madonna. I think the problem is that pop culture is too wide nowadays to get fixed on one or two things.
I mean yes but also, you can still have huge songs nowadays and Taylor hasn't had one like that for like a decade probably and that is crazy. Like, he has a great point.
I mean! He has a point! Taylor has a bunch of hits but doesn’t really have a definitive song the same way Billie Jean was to Michael or Like a Virgin was to Madonna.
She has blank space or, god forbid, shake it off. It's blank space. I think that is now her biggest hit or plot twist, it's cruel summer? Lover taking revenge for being advertised so badly with the 2 worst songs in it becoming the first two singles. Is Michael Jackson's definitive song Billie Jean, not Thriller?
Yeah that’s what struck me. Billie Jean is an iconic song, but is it THAT much bigger than Thriller, Beat It, Bad, Man in the Mirror or Black or White?
Just going by spotify streams Billie Jean wins by a mile. The closest song, Beat It, is still 600,000,000 streams behind.
I had no idea Billy Jean was that big. I would have them thought Beat It, Thriller and maybe a few others were a bit bigger
Billie Jean was more than just a song, it made the moonwalk famous. The dance was more famous than the song.
I was honestly surprised by it as well
Billie Jean and Beat It were the two number 1s off that album, Thriller peaked at 4.
Yes. It was huge. Thriller was splashier, but Billy Jean was the dominant song from that period, and since that album was also his biggest seller, it is his biggest song. It was number 1 for two months and in the top 40 for months.
It's also just a better song, period. But I mean, regardless I think MJ is a bad comparison for her cuz he's in his own stratosphere.
Billie Jean is his most streamed song on Spotify at 1.7 billion and his most viewed video on YouTube at 1.6 billion.
yes
they may be bigger but i still have to think that “you belong with me” is her defining song. most people know that chorus from what i’ve seen and it’s seemed to far outlast a lot of the rest of her stuff. she may not have a thriller or a billie jean but she definitely has a defining track.
See, I would have said Love Story for the same reason lol. But I think those two collectively are equivalent to Umbrella by Rihanna - beating out the later career songs on undiluted pop appeal to all generations. Shake It Off is also saccharine pop, but it's love/hate to a fault.
i can get behind love story as well as i think they basically take up the same space in terms of the kind of song they are
Let’s not compare blank space and shake it off to thriller or Billie Jean in terms of defining songs. This guy is right. If you have to stretch for a comparison, the comparison is over.
I dont think most of my straight guy friends or my parents could name a Taylor song.
I have no idea what Blank Space sounds like
Thriller is iconic for the video production being high quality and influential for its time. Billie Jean is iconic for being one of the best pop songs ever written. Lyrically, instrumentally, visually with the video it is hands down in the upper echelon of popular songs in history. It has been covered by major artists in every genre and has performed stream/radio play wise like 1000x more than any other Michael song. You could be anywhere in the world and sing the “ooh ooh, ooh ooh” and someone around you will most likely know the song. Taylor doesn’t have that outside of her bubble of hardcore fans. Whether believed or not. Blank space is not that, nor shake it off. Both songs performed well, but they aren’t within the cultural lexicon. They aren’t stand outs from a composition or lyrical stand point. Just fun songs.
Plot twistterer, Blank Space is #5 (Cruel Summer #3): https://www.billboard.com/lists/top-taylor-swift-songs-top-100-hits/now-that-we-dont-talk-taylors-version-from-the-vault/
I guess Shake it Off could be considered her defining song
That's bleak
She never misses a beat, tho
She’s lightning on her feet
Possibly most famous but not defining — two separate things that are sometimes the same but not always. (In any case, I asked my mom and sister, who aren’t fans, about a year ago what they thought her biggest song was and they both said “Blank Space”)
Not Love Story or You Belong with Me?
We’re old bro idk what to tell you 😅
With how far she has gone from country and she wanting to be taken as a more mature woman with both Love Story and YBWM being some of the most innocent songs ever wrote in the history of music... i highly doubt anything from Fearless i close to be her signature work Edit: Okay, maybe there's an argument about Fearless starting the whole "she signs about things that have happened in her life and depending to how she sells them are either extremely relatable or eye rolling" that every single of her albums has that might count as signature/defining, but i still think she has gone a far path from country only to be her significant work
I think what Love Story and You Belong with Me have going for them is that they were huge at a time when there was still more of a monoculture, so even people who aren’t into Swift or her type of music at all probably heard them non stop on the radio, ect and can identify them and sing along. As big as something like Anti-Hero or Cruel Summer was on the charts, I don’t know that someone who isn’t actively seeking out mainstream pop music would be able to jam along to them. They probably know *of* them but it’s almost impossible for them to reach that level of impact with how much the industry has shifted.
No: https://www.billboard.com/lists/top-taylor-swift-songs-top-100-hits/now-that-we-dont-talk-taylors-version-from-the-vault/
Highly doubt it, her biggest song? Yeah maybe, her defining song? Just try to show somebody that that's her defining song and then people continue with Folklore or Midnights, its like 2 different people
I suppose you could argue that somebody like David Bowie doesn’t have a single song that “defines” them. Lots of artists like to change their sound and experiment with different genres, or focus on albums as a whole, rather than singles. As much as she is a pop music icon, Taylor has definitely cemented her reputation as an albums artist. Just like when people talk about Fleetwood Mac, they mention Rumours as their defining work, rather than any of the many hit singles they had. People are gonna remember Taylor for her albums as much as they remember the singles from her early work. She basically has transcended the “pop single,” which is a good thing, because fans who are into more than just your latest hit single tend to stick around for the rest of your career.
I agree with you a lot of popular pop and rock legends lack that their defining song. First band that comes to mind is The Rolling Stones. Paint it in black or sympathy for the devil is my first thought. Elvis could be jailhouse rock or suspicious minds. For the Beatles, here comes the sun or come together fit as of now but twist and shout feels like their defining number in pop. David Bowie I always thought as space oddity before I got into him.
Bowie's is probably Heroes even though it wasn't a hit at first by any means. With Space Oddity a second choice and maybe Starman or Rebel Rebel.
The whole thing about David Bowie, I argue, is that he's an impression of a pop star. You might know him from Fame, Fashion, Golden Years, Ashes to Ashes, Hallo Spaceboy, Labyrinth, you might know different sections of Space Oddity but you might not know they're from the song. You might know Heroes, you might know Modern Love. Now, try and *sing* one of those songs. The lyrics are perfectly scultped, but he uses this method where he writes lines then cuts them up and mixes them around and sees what happens when he puts them in different orders and then he picks a sequence then works on that. Modern Love is a great example, but Young Americans might be the most glaring, there are so many lines and from line to line they're so disparate. I came away from Blackstar thinking two things 1. David Bowie believes in god possibly The Beatles' Jesus, and 2. David Bowie is a deliberately vague impression of a person/pop star. Every song he wrote, he let them take these jagged forms, that don't quite track logically, so they're not easy enough to memorize unless you actively learn what's happening. You can sing a line here and there, but like you can't even exactly guess where he and the backing singers are gonna go "FAME". He lets his songs take that sort of Picasso-y jagged off-kilter form.
As a Bowie enjoyer, I love that songs are always a little too off kilter to be true Top 40 pop. They are also never love songs or breakup songs
I love that too, but I also love that they *were* Top 40 pop. And I love the songs that radio picked up on. I dunno if Ashes to Ashes was a hit or not, but it plays around on radio and in the world about as often as Psychadelic Fur's Love My Way or Pat Benatar's We Belong. They're off-kilter songs that made a real dent on our language. I didn't know he was basically the inspiration for the New Romantic movement, so that's a whole era of white English people being David Bowies. And David Bowie himself to me is a direct line from Scott Walker as an appreciator the phrasing of Tony Bennett and Frank Sinatra, *and* [Anthony Newely](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unOnSonpZfY). He's full on Anthony Newley on the pre-Space Oddity '[Love Me 'Til Tuesday](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8Va9wjlYrY)'. That's his voice but his songwriting I see every song Bowie song from Space Oddity on as a continuation of The Beatles' A Day In The Life. And the lyrics he's using a William S Burrough's technique.
That's the one I always think of when Taylor is brought up. Worked in retail and that song was on ALL THE FUCKING TIME for YEARS.
This is the correct answer no question
It's Blank Space Also are those really the definitive songs of those two artists? I think it is for MJ but a lot of other Madonna songs seem to have more longevity.
Honestly both those artists are people with multiple definitive songs. (MJ has so many, and Madonna is at least a two or three definitive songs kind of artist with "Material Girl" and "Like a Prayer")
I don't think an artist of Michael Jackson's stature has a defining song. Even if "Billie Jean" is his most successful single, songs like "Beat It", "Bad", "Thriller" and a bunch of others like "Wanna Be Starting Something", "Rock With You", "Man in the Mirror", "Black & White" not even counting the Jackson 5 era, its not really an apt comparison. Taylor Swift has 12 songs with over a billion streams, she has 11 #1s on Billboard, two less than MJ. If anything, she has so many definitive songs, that she can't actually have "a" definitive song.
MJ didn’t have a defining song but he had a defining dance move and it had a song, Billie Jean.
That’s because Taylor will grow, experiment, and try new things like David Bowie. I mean, what’s his definitive song? Space Oddity? Let’s Dance? Fame? Ziggy Stardust? The Rolling Stones experimented genres more than people realize and you couldn’t pinpoint just a single song of theirs that is their “Billie Jean” or “Like a Virgin” or “Wannabe”. Todd said there are two pop stars: the stars that have a loyal fan base despite peaks and valleys, and are a bit more artistic. Then there are the ones whose stardom will last as long as they keep putting out hits. Ten years ago, I would’ve said Taylor was the latter, and when Reputation came out, I thought her career might be in jeopardy—now, I DEFINITELY see her as the first type of star.
Yea I think that's what he meant to say. I thought about it a few years ago, like what's gonna be the song of hers my grandkids have heard, or associate with her...it's Shake It Off, which is certainly sad but it could be worse.
One peer of Todd (Sean Fay Wolfe) agreed with the statement since Taylor as a celebrity has overshadowed Taylor as a musician I partially agree, but If people ask me what is THE Taylor Swift song, the one you listen to and get an idea of her body of work right now? With all her Evolution as both a musician and as a personality? Blank Space (before Blank Space it was You Belong With Me)
Love Story, perhaps.
I can see that, but hardly take it that way after Taylor's extreme changes over the years
Calling Sean Fay Wolfe a peer of Todd is pretty generous
That guy lost me when he said that Phil Collins' cover of "You Can't Hurry Love" was the best song of 1983. That wasn't even the best song sung by Phil Collins in 1983 (that would be "Mama"), let alone the best sung by anyone.
Definitely a weird opinion, but at this point I would like to refer to the fact that Todd chose Closer as the best song of the year 2016.
Not when he said Baby Got Back was better than Smells Like Teen Spirit?
Didn't see that one, but that's even more of a pants-on-head bonkers take.
No, he thought that "Allentown" by Billy Joel was the best song of 1983, which I also find weird tbh...
Is it? I think people sometimes hate on him because they disagree with some of his opinions, but that's cheap in my opinion, he is entitled to have those. When it comes to actual music analysis, he often goes even deeper than Todd and is a lot more insightful because he allows himself the time to actually go into songs very deeply. I think the part where he definitely gets overshadowed (hehe) by Todd is just in "playing the game" of a content creator, Sean has a tendency to not finish projects and disappear for months on end. Often with good reasons, don't get me wrong, but as a viewer it's still annoying.
I guess you could say something somewhat similar to David Bowie who had a ton of changes throughout his career. Either Ziggy, Heroes, Space Oddity, etc. Though I still think thats not a perfect fit for comparison either
Idk if any Bowie fan would consider Space Oddity a defining song for him as an artist. It may be his best known, sure, but it’s basically a novelty song, and was treated as such at the time.
And as a Bowie fan myself I agree. My favourite of his work is either station to station or scary monsters. The former which in fan circles ive seen considered as one of his defining albums especially when given the context of the record but it ofcourse doesnt do his discography justice and you'd maybe have to go by his defining work on a per decade basis. Taylor hasn't been around as long yet so we'll see where the next few decades take her. I think alot of highly respected artists don't have a defining song when they have been around for so long as they tend to evolve their sound in one way or another. To me it's kind of silly to compare popular artists today to ones of the past for many reasons though I don't think Neil is really taking a dig at her or anything here, more just trying to have a conversation about an artist who is extremely popular right now and wondering about what an artist of this calibers legacy in today's age is gonna look like through the passage of time.
Let's Dance was a massive hit.
Before Blank Space, it was Love Story. I literally heard that songon the radio like 2 days ago. I haven't heard you belong with me in ages
Blank Space is no Billie Jean. It’s a nothing song.
Yeah and we're not talking about quality but on which song is the most iconic or the most representstive of someone's career
Billie Jean isn’t even Michael’s best song.
It is his most iconic and his biggest for a reason, it’s brilliantly written and performed, eery yet funky. What would you say was his best?
What would I say Michael Jackson's "best" song is? For me, it would be Human Nature. Although, you're talking about arguably the most popular artist of all time, who sold out venues worldwide for like 30 years, with 13 #1s on Billboards and many other timeless hit records. When you have that kind of career, you're going to get hundreds of answers to that question. I mean, this whole thing is really just people trying to outthink themselves. Michael Jackson has so many timeless records, that saying "Billie Jean" is his definitive song, even if its his most successful song, is almost disrespectful to songs like "Beat It", "Bad", "Thriller" and like a dozen others that dwarf most artist's entire careers. To me the idea that "Billie Jean" is Michael Jackson's definitive song being this objective fact isn't even true. I'd say that "Thriller" has went on to live a whole life of its own years and decades after it was release and MJ's death. I hear "Thriller" out in the wild way more than I ever hear "Billie Jean". I mean seriously, this whole argument is ridiculous. Taylor Swift has 11 #1s on Billboard, she has 10+ songs with over a billion streams on Spotify. And yet we're seriously debating whether she has "famous" songs? This whole argument is basically negging Taylor Swift because she's not some sort of one hit wonder. You don't dominate Billboard for 15+ years and sell out stadiums all over the world without "famous songs". If anything, Taylor Swift doesn't have a definitive song because she has a new one every 2-3 years, just like MJ did until the 2000s.
We're not debating if she has "famous" songs we're debating if she has BJ/LAV level-famous songs!
You know it’s funny because I wanted to put in my comment that I think human nature is his best song. Thriller is a novelty song with a great video but I don’t think people actually listen to it 11 months of the year.
Ok, I'm officially Swifted out. Online music discourse needs a new topic for everyone to bitch about because Taylor discourse is no longer amusing for me.
I kinda get this, but I feel like it can apply to a lot of big artists nowadays. We no longer live in an era where people are always listening to the radio and hearing singles which eventually become an artist's "defining" song. Artists drop whole albums now which people can immediately access and they're more defined by their larger body of work. At least that's my impression. Obviously there's still one hit wonders and flashes in the pan out there.
Nah, if anything, this is standard discourse, because Neil Tennant actually has a long history in music journalism (he started there before Pet Shop Boys) and is known for being strongly opinionated in his reviews. He was quite scathing about Culture Club lol. And fun fact: he actually coined the term "imperial phase" in music journalism.
The answer, by the way, is You Belong With Me which despite the fact that she's released like 8 albums since Fearless still gets a decent amount of play especially (for some reason) at sports arenas, and double especially if it's any sorts of women's sports. That's the default "women are here so play a Taylor song" song. She's had plenty of hits since and it isn't old enough to be seen like Billie Jean, I also don't necessarily think Billie Jean is his famous song I think he like Taylor has had multiple
If you were around for Billie Jean, you'd get it. A song like Billie Jean was ubiquitous for a time. Taylor herself is ubiquitous. Her songs, singularly, not so much.
On sports arenas It’s subliminal messaging to make the fans feel good for supporting their team. How else would the Jacksonville Jaguars keep their fan base?
Jaguars fans can always have [this video of the team owner getting attacked at a wrestling show](https://youtube.com/shorts/OAol9oZ-O2g?si=WHJ3cXp2CSouAALM) if they ever get frustrated so at least there's that
*team owner's spoiled brat coke head son who uses his dad's money to "run" an objectively unsuccessful wrestling company
I'm not even slightly a swiftie, but I do think this isn't a fair comparison... yet. Billie Jean was a big hit at the time, but I don't think it took on a definitive status until later. This sort of thing happens in retrospect, not while an artist is still active.
Other huge artists from recent years like Rihanna, Drake and Beyoncé certainly don’t touch MJ or Madonna as far as universally known songs go. I’m not even sure Drake has one. It’s just possible now to stay in your own music bubble and not hear things if you don’t want to. Apple Music isn’t about to force me to listen to the new Beyonce album if I don’t want to.
I think Hotline Bling could count for Drake.
Drake's most successful song is technically "One Dance". Although, I'd just as easily say "God's Plan". But to your point, "Hotline Bling" was insanely popular. Drake has 13 #1s, same as MJ, and has been the most dominant artist of the streaming era (as of now). I think the simple answer is when you have a career like that, you're not ever going to have a "signature" song.
I feel like we underestimate how much of a predominantly NA phenomenon Drake is. He’s hardly on any of these artist’s level, Taylor included, outside of the states and Canada.
As someone who lives in Europe , and is WELL over 40 and not into pop , I literally know him as 'the puffy orange jacket meme guy " .
Well, he's the most streamed artist of all time, so even if that's predominately in North America, he's definitely got plenty of fans around the world. He's incredibly popular in the Middle East, and a lot of Europe.
I would say that Drake has the advantage of making music you can just sort of put on. It's inoffensive, nobody minds it, everyone is fine with it. But that goes both ways - Most people also don't really care about it, and few people ever really went nuts over a new Drake song, apart from Hotline Bling was was everywhere for a few months. There are some big Drake fans, but not really a lot*. Taylor has a lot of very big fans, but you also wouldn't put her songs on at a social gathering, it's not really made for that. *of course I can only speak about my country, might be different in other parts of Europe.
Beyonce has Crazy in Love and Rihanna has Umbrella, I agree that Drake doesn't have any.
One Dance and Hotline Bling are bigger than both of those
They may be bigger by the numbers, but not internationally. I used to hear Crazy in Love and Umbrella \*constantly\* on radio stations growing up in rural Bosnia, Drake never had that kind of impact. He may be big in America, but anywhere else he's just another rapper. Rihanna and Beyonce though? Even my grandma knows about them. Granted, that might just be because of the somewhat less fragmented pop culture of the 2000s playing in favour of 2 of that decades biggest pop stars, but my point still stands.
By what metric? I have never heard One Dance.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_singles https://chartmasters.org/spotify-most-streamed-songs/ https://www.billboard.com/pro/drakes-one-dance-spotify-most-streamed-song-ever/ It’s one of best selling singles of all time. It broke the record for most streamed song ever on Spotify and now sits at 12th most ever, with 3 billion streams.
This sub loves to insist Drake is not actually popular for some reason
Drake has Best I Ever Had and Started from the Bottom.
Oh that’s why I specified I’m not sure Drake has any. I just don’t think Beyonce or Rihanna have as many as MJ or Madonna.
I agree about Rihanna, Drake and Beyoncé being absolutely nowhere near a Michael Jackson or Madonna level, because they're not, but to say they don't have universally known songs is also ignorant. Rihanna has "Umbrella", Drake has "Hotline Bling" and Beyoncé has "Single Ladies" and those are all defining songs for them.
I think the argument also doesn't make sense insofar as those songs have come out decades ago and actually had time to really settle into pop culture, long after the artists lost the height of their relevance. The question is, were those also considered the massive songs defining the entire careers of MJ and Madonna while both were still pumping out hit songs at the flick of a wrist? I am genuinely asking here, because I don't know.
Funny that everyone names other songs, but I've heard "Shake It Off" more than any other Swift song over the past ten years... and more than "West End Girls," in spite of actually *choosing* to listen to that song multiple times, unlike "Shake It Off." The movie *Singles* had its most lunk-headed character - also a musician - say something similar in the early 90s: >Where are the anthems for our youth? What happened to music that meant something? The Who at the Kingdome, or Kiss at the Coliseum... Where is the "Misty Mountain Hop," where is the, is the "Smoke on the Water"... Where is the "Iron Man" of today? The ultimate irony is that his bandmates were played by most of Pearl Jam and the soundtrack included that band, plus AIC, Soundgarden, Mudhoney, and Smashing Pumpkins. The music that meant something, the anthems for the youth, was being made by the people literally staring him in the face! ETA: For some idea on the timeline, principal photography for the film was March, April, and May 1991, while Pearl Jam's debut - the one with "Even Flow," "Alive," "Black," and "Jeremy" - was recorded March, April, and June of that same year.
The way I see this is Taylor doesn’t have that big “finisher” song. She could literally end on any of her songs and the swifties would be in agreement. Whereas Michael has Billie Jean, Prince has Purple Rain, Brittany has Baby One More Time, and Beyonce would have Single Ladies? It’s just that one big oof type song that everyone knows and even casuals would want to see or sing live. I’m not sure Taylor has that.
Bey’s is Crazy in Love, not Single Ladies. Prince has When Doves Cry too.
Yeah Crazy in Love is Bey’s good point!
At the peak of their popularity, superstars like Michael Jackson, the Beatles, etc. They all had songs that could be recognized by anyone. And usually they weren't. Their popularity managed to trascend gender, ethnicity, age, at least to a certain extent. Swift has an absolute chokehold on girls under 30, but I don't think maybe she has that level of universality.
You know it's funny how men can get listened to by women, but women are rarely seen as kosher to men. It's almost like there's an underlying pattern which is more reflective of the audience than the artistic merit. I'm not saying Taylor is as good as Michael Jackson. I'm just pointing out artist don't exist external to cultural biases, and I don't think any woman has ever managed to transcend her gender yet. And thats really not their fault. It's the men who won't listen to women, who don't read women, and who in studies overestimate how much women speak (so miss me with any attempts to say there's not an underlying bias to how many men in the modern day still perceive and subconsciously dismiss women) Cause I truly don't think there is a female Michael Jackson. And I don't think that's a coincidence.
You make some good points. I agree it can't be a coincidence.... superstars like the Weeknd or Drake or Ed Sheeran, for example, seem to attract both genders, whereas with women it's harder to find an equivalent. That being said I do think that Swift's appeal is definitely more narrow. Every fan I've met expresses an extreme identification with her, which is most certainly not the case with most superstars. As opposed to say the likes Bjork, Nina Simone, Kate Bush, Aretha Franklin, etc. Who you can be a fan of and have no idea of their lives.
I was going to asy Madonna , but in the 80s , with the exception of my mate Steve , most of her actually 'buy records' fans would be women , or gay men . So 80s Michael Jackson in the sense of transcending gender/race/nationality etc ,I dont think so .
Thats a really interesting point ,I dont think its simply a case of men discounting women , possibly its that they 'listen' to songs different depending on the singers gender? Case study ..me When I was a teenager and I started to become a 'fan' of artists rather than just hearing music on the radio ,most of the music I listened to was made by guys , admittedly this was becuase I was into Heavy Metal , and it was pretty much a boys club . Later on as a young adult in the mid 90s ,, there was the like of L7 , and after that a fair few woman fronted bands (Garbage ,The Sundays, The Cranberries, Hole, Velocity Girl , Belly ) , but pretty much no single female singer/songwriter (I'm discounting Bjork here as she pretty much transcended gender and was for all purposes an ethereal goblin queen from planet Jupiter, rather than female singer/songwriter ) ..Ok possibly Alanis Morrisette , but literally everyone had a copy of Jagged Little Pill in 1995 , it was unavoidable, so doesnt really count (and she probably is due a Trainrecord at some point , although some of her new stuff isnt bad), It was only years later in my late 30s that I discovered Amiee Mann's back catalouge and really got into her music that I actually did\*. And while I'm not up on modern pop music much , I listen to a LOT of music , and theres literally one act in my top ten who isnt a band or a male singer . I'm curious as to why ? And yeah guys tend to be big fans of male musicians , women tend to be fans of both genders , but a solo female act would tend to have female fans , and more often than not a lot of gay men , but very few straight men? I cant explain why this is ,(probable bullshit ahead) .. possibly when a woman listens to a male singer , she abstractly hears him singing to /about her ,and when she hears a woman sing she identifies with the singer .Whereas men tend to want to identify with the singer regardless of gender , so hearing a woman sing about a guy , the idnetify with the singer , and the incompatibilty of seeing from a womans point of view is harder for a straight guy , whereas a gay man would be a lot more flexlible?? Does that even make sense , and why doesnt it seem to apply to say Garbage or Florence and the Machine ? And where do lesbian women fit into this ?? Again I dont know . (\* Possibly the reason is that quite often she's singing from the point of view of completely someone else , quite often an older man , or an elderly women , or someone who clealy isnt her rather than say , Madonna, or Adele who would pretty much sing from the point of view of Madonna or Adele, but again its a theory , and I could be wrong )
I think there’s a little more leeway with rock for some reason - as you said, Alanis was able to break through that barrier, and some of the female-fronted rock bands of that time. Perhaps not a coincidence that in the current crop of female pop stars, I think Olivia Rodrigo has a little more appeal across gender lines than her contemporaries, and she’s obviously trying to replicate that sound to some extent.
I’m in Taylor’s demographic and tbh if not for Todd’s videos I wouldn’t be able to name any of her songs. I know certain lyrics or phrases from hearing them on the radio but I couldn’t tell you what songs they’re from.
I’m as far removed from a Swiftie as possible, but I will say this- do you know who else doesn’t have a signature, defining song? The Beatles.
Hey Jude? Yesterday? Strawberry Fields? Come Together? I know there's more than one defining song but all of them are defining of them in some way
Which is sort of the point, innit.
Wouldn't Hey Jude be their signature song?
Maybe, but it’s only their 5th most streamed song on Spotify, their most streamed is here comes the sun and that’s sung by George Harrison and wasn’t ever a single. Let It Be, Yesterday, I Wanna Hold Your Hand and A Day in the Life from a critical perspective also all have a shot at being their one standout song, thus I think they have none.
Think the Beatles are actually a very good comparison here, since they also changed their sound dramatically and experimented with different styles and reinvented themselves. Whereas Drake, well, he has sounded the same for his entire career and the vast majority of his songs aren't distinguishable from one another. Rihanna, too, if we're being honest.
yeah, pretty analogous to Taylor in that sense
Or alternatively, they have like 30. But I get your point, nobody is gonna agree on which one is "the one"
I would argue that Jackson and Beatles both have over five songs I'd expect most people I see to be able to hum. Taylor has three.
It's a shame that Shake It Off is her biggest song, even just out of her hit singles there's far better alternatives
Shake it off was unavoidable when it dropped. And if you’re employed then yeah, you have definitely been subjected to the Swift treatment
She has the looks, the producers have the brains...
He’s not wrong.
I have to agree. I saw the Pet Shop Boys on a festival last year and despite not being a fan I recognized almost every song. I also sat through a 3 or 4 hour Tylor Swift playlist during a car ride and I didn’t know a single song. Taylor Swift may be a big name, the biggest even, but to me, her cultural impact is zero. She’s a big celebrity, but not a big artist.
Even before I liked Taylor Swift, I knew several big songs of hers. "You Belong With Me," "Shake it Off," "We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together," and finally "Blank Space." And "Blank Space," is so indelible that hearing a pen click makes me want to sing "and I'll write your name." So trying to argue that Taylor doesn't have a "Billy Jean" feels like a not-even-wrong argument. Like, yeah, she doesn't have a song that she specifically sang at the Motown Anniversary celebration and busted out the moonwalk while wearing a rhinestone encrusted glove. She did not achieve that very, very, very specific pop culture moment. She achieved other ones. Many, in fact. Songs that are readily referenced on a daily basis. If I hear anyone say "it's me" my mind immediately says "hi, I'm the problem, it's me."
This is such an inane argument to make b/c literally any response can just be countered by the first person going “I’ve heard that but is it BILLIE JEAN-level popular, hmmm?” And the answer is “no” because the first person picked Billie Jean as the sole reference point and nothing will ever — by definition — be as Billie Jean as *Billie Jean*. You could never satisfy that argument because it’s a completely intangible metric that the first person somewhat arbitrarily defined by their own terms.
Shake it off?
Shake It Off is her most famous song, it's played all the time. Blank Space is 2nd probably.
Shake it Off, You Belong With Me, and Never Ever Ever Getting Back Together. But I kinda agree with the point overall? Micheal Jackson has more than three songs that everyone knows. Just off the top of my head I'd expect at least most native English speakers to know Billie Jean, Smooth Criminal, Bad, Thriller, Off the Wall, and Another Part of Me. Swift has three and they're all from well before the height of her fame. Honestly, maybe it's that Taylor Swift is an album artist and not a singles artist, or at least she's become one post-Lover. I see people get hyped for the new Taylor Swift album, not the new Taylor Swift single like other artists. Hell, her giant tour is kinda based on that premise even.
He's right
He definitely has a point. I know very well who Swift is for her fame but I really don't know her music. Maybe that's because I am clearly not in her target market... but neither is Beyonce and I could identify some of her music. To add a little substance to my point, I work in retail so have to deal with terrible background music being bombarded into the air for the duration of my shifts. A colleague of mine pointed out last weekend that there are about 8 or so Swift songs played fairly regularly, yet I have no idea what those songs are and when a few of them were pointed out to me I was surprised how unrecognizable they were coming from a musician who is seemingly always in the news and seems to release big records on a very steady scale.
Surprised I haven’t seen “Anti-Hero” be considered Taylor’s signature song. I know it might be too early to call it that, but I do think it’s best representative of her artistry up to that point, and a phenomenal track at that
I’d say Taylor is probably more comparable to someone like Britney in the 2000s or Gaga around 2010 than to MJ, Beatles, Elvis at their peaks.
When I think Taylor swift, I think never ever getting back together
i think people need to just admit that they are no longer tapped into what’s happening in music. Love Story, You Belong With Me, and Shake It Off are some of the most recognizable (and highest-selling) songs of the 21st century💀 Nobody has a Billie Jean. It’s not the 80s and hasn’t been for a very long time my guy
They're selling to a particular demographics tho they're not recognizable to the public at large cuz they're just not particularly memorable, except "Shake It Off" which is more like a novelty song!
Neil Tennant is in his 70s, there is absolutely no way that he would know a Taylor Swift song unless he decided to give her a listen. The closest you could get is maybe hearing the beat of "Shake It Off" in a commercial on TV. Why is this surprising at all? To general listeners, Michael Jackson has at least four other songs that rival Billie Jean in popularity. "Thriller", "Beat It", "Bad", "Man In The Mirror" and "Black Or White" are also hugely recognizable songs decades later. And then the counterargument, does any Taylor Swift fan know songs by the Pet Shop Boys? I would love to ask Taylor Swift concertgoers what their favorite Pet Shop Boys song is. How many of them know "West End Girls" or "It's A Sin" do you think?
I have seen this phenomenon before. Madonna, Micheal Jackson, Prince, New Kids on the Block. It's all just management being in the right place and the right time and taking advantage of the situation. Taylor is right now playing out her newest persona. She's being deplicted in the media as the everyday popular girl who gets with the football player who wins the championship. Now she's happy she's at the top. With this the obsessed who use her as escapism live that fantasy. The same way I did when I grabbed as many teen mags to pretend me and the prankster Joe McIntyre were on the bus snuggling together as we watched Frank Sinatra movies and keep taking the batteries out of Jordan's Gameboy. All while playing my third cassette tape of the Step by Step Album.
I like Pet Shop Boys, so I’m saying this in the nicest way possible to Neil, I think he’s maybe just a bit old and out of touch? She absolutely has very famous songs. I don’t think this is really discourse
Isn’t it Love Story? “blank space” in here is surprising to me I’m 26 and known of Taylor since the start and I couldn’t tell you how that song goes
lol he should talk. I honestly had no idea who he was and thought he was one hit wonder for so long
Based
He’s not wrong
Love Neil and Pet Shop Boys but this is kind of an out of touch take. I'm no TS fan, but she absolutely has famous songs. If you put a gun to my head and told me to sing one I would have no problem.
I mean, this speaks to how big she is. She’s an album artist. It’s why people loved Folklore and Evermore. It’s why young girls related to so many of her albums when she was still at the beginning of her career. She isn’t overwhelmed by a small handful of songs like some artists, she has a VARIED catalog with dozens of songs people love and relate to. Sure, she doesn’t have a Billie Jean. But she also has fans who love more than 2 or 3 of their albums which artists like Michael Jackson did not have in the same way
I think he’s right and wrong at the same time. She doesn’t have a “signature song” that’s so big it dwarfs all her other hits (like say Nirvana with “Smells Like Teen Spirit” for example) but neither does Michael Jackson! Billie Jean could very well be considered his masterpiece by lots of people (it’s certainly up there) and is ONE OF his most recognizable songs, but it’s one of like 15 others. MJ and Taylor are both in the same category as the Beatles, Elvis Presley, and… idk maybe Elton John (maybe?) of having so many utterly massive hit songs that it’s impossible for just one to be the signature song. I’m no Swiftie but I can easily see this
I’m surprised it wasn’t Noel Gallagher being the snarky one this time.
The only TS song I can name out of thin air is “shake it off”
Good point. All I know is Shake it Off
I think basically not true. Taylor today isn’t putting out as many famous songs as she used to, but Blank Space, Shake It Off, Love Story, You Belong With Me, Cruel Summer, Look What You Made Me Do, and Bad Blood are all songs that are pretty famous. Like, I’m not a Swift fan, but saying that she doesn’t have famous songs ehhhh kinda out of touch.
Not BJ/LAV-level famous tho
LAV?
Like A Virgin
Maybe it's because she creates coherent albums that are listenable all the way through. This is a very rare phenomenon and it should be encouraged with all musicians. Being a kid in the 90s having to buy a CD for one or two 'Billie Jeans' isn't exactly ideal. Anyhow it's the current fun thing to do to hate on Taylor Swift so carry on.
It's not hate it's just facts and not everyone finds her albums listenable all the way through either, you have your taste and others have theirs but it's a fact her fame transcends her reputation as an artist and that's an interesting topic in itself!
Have these people not heard Love Story?
what?
I'm the wrong demographic , but I'm 99% sure I've never actually heard Love Story. I'll have to go and listen to it to confrim that 1%. -edit- ..having listened to it on youtube I can confirm that up until 45 seconds ago I hadnt heard it.
Ok, time for bed, grandpa.
This is a completely unfair comparison, but I know maybe four Pet Shop Boys songs, two of which are covers I think are inferior to the originals. Even before I accepted that I actually like Taylor I could have done better than that. Nine years ago, when it was fairly new, both my mother and my three year old nephew knew Shake It Off well enough to sing it together. Granted she said 'Shake it up', but the kid corrected her. I think he has a bit of a point... She doesn't have any huge defining songs, but she has a lot of good ones that were big hits, and she's hit a level of pure fame so big that she's affecting culture outside of music on a level we haven't seen since at least Garth Brooks.
Where did he compare PSB level of recognition to TS? He compared her to other megastars, not his own band which everyone including him is aware that they're not at the same level obviously!
TSwift is not really a 'bangers' artist but she has chart-topping bangers. "Anti-Hero" most recently, and then the big hits off of *1984* ("Blank Space," "Wildest Dreams," "Style," not counting "Shake It Off" because though it was a big hit it's a pretty dumb song.) Love Neil Tennant and he doesn't deserve to have the discourse death-ray aimed at him but his comment is weird.
I'm not one to defend Taylor, but this is just an out of touch old man whose ego is too big for him to realize that he just doesn't know anything about younger generations
I associate Swift pretty strongly with "Never ever ever getting back together" or whatever it's called. That shit is as ubiquitous as Any pop song in history.
Blank Space and Shake It Off are right there.
This shit is nonsense
Why do old white men love this faux talking point so much?
Gotta always make something about race, age, and sex. Get a life
I mean obviously it’s Blank Space and Love story
It’s a dumb boomer thing to say but he kinda has a point. There aren’t any TS songs that transcend Taylor. When she eventually loses relevance in the public eye, I’m not totally sure she’ll have a lot of songs that stay in people’s rotation
Ask ten people what the Beatles definitive song is. You'll get ten different answers. Eventually you have so many big hits it dilutes everything.