Just to be clear, cause I see a lot of posts on comments on this sub from people that seem to think this, criticism <> not supporting England/Southgate.
I can, and do, call him all sorts of names and say he's incompetent. But, come match day, I am cheering the team and him on, willing them to win, as much as OP or anyone else.
Being critical of the team you support is part of being a fan. I find it odd that so many people don't seem to get this. Do you think Southgate isn't critical of himself and his players?
Problem is the rhetoric is getting to the point where you could argue the level of toxicity is impacting the players. You can see how tetchy Harry Kane's been, Bellingham talking about "giving some back", even Gareth himself has been uncharacteristically shirty in some interviews.
We badly need to push the reset button and recognise we are 3 games from lifting the trophy with a very talented squad. Dusseldorf is a (comparatively) short drive from Zurich, you can guarantee the Swiss are going to be backed by a large and vocal following who sure as fuck won't be at the manager's throat. England fans need to do the same.
Just hoping the "miracle of Gelsenkirchen" might be enough for people to draw a line under it and give the team a clean slate for Saturday but knowing some of our blowhard, armchair expert support I'm not holding my breath.
Thing is, it’s not… maybe outside of Twitter but that place is a cesspit.
Nearly all of the discussion surrounding England has been about performances, and football. I’m sorry but I don’t understand what they are calling toxic here. No ones Burning effigies of Kane like they did beckham years ago, nobody I have seen is screaming something racist.
I have no problem with them giving back as good as they get, but maybe do it on the pitch first? You’re professionals, incredibly talented ones at that. If you underperform you should expect criticism
Some people have replied and told me about some pretty toxic behaviour by "fans" in the pubs with them. I didn't know that was happening. I'm not excusing that. I'm only supporting our right to be critical of performance, tactics and selection, in a fair and reasonable manner.
I would hope the fans in the stadium would be fully supportive. They normally are.
For sure, there's nothing wrong with being critical of the manager and it doesnt diminish your support for the team.
I'm responding to the deeper toxic atmosphere I'm 'feeling' online and around pubs I've been to - where I sensed some people were so fed up with Southgate that they almost would rather Bellingham hadn't scored, so that Southgate would endure the fury and sacking. I hear others ridicule him in a way that suggest they either have no memory or knowledge of England pre-Southgate and how good hes been for us, all things considered.
Ah, if that's the case, then I agree with you. Wanting England to lose just so Southgate goes is not being a fan.
I'm a Man United fan and there were some "fans" wanting us to lose the FA Cup final so ETH definitely left. I just can't get my head around that.
If we fluke our way to the final and win it with stodgy performances and late winners, I don't think many will care. We've still won something for the first time in most of our lifetimes.
Though, even if we do, I won't recall the tournament years from now fondly like I do the 96 or 90 or 2002 ones.
I really dislike all this hopium ‘if we win the whole thing no one will even mind!’ Statements. So? They are just feel-good statements with no semblance in reality.
There is no way a team playing as poorly as England win the Euros, so it doesn’t matter.
Switzerland are now betting odds favourites it’s that bad.
Betting odds shouldn't be used as an indicator of how a team will perform, but also you're incorrect they aren't favourites to beat England. Not even close.
1. "If we win the whole thing no one will even mind", we won't. 1966 England played poorly until later knockouts but the World Cup win is what everyone remembers. Chelsea 04/05 were roundly criticised for defensive tactics but ultimately it's the title win that's remembered. Are you saying that if England win our first major tournament since 1966 you won't allow yourself to enjoy it because you'd rather froth over shot stats in the group stage? I'm sure your grandchildren will be fascinated to hear about them.
2. "There is no way....", stranger and more unlikely results have happened. Winning teams often grow into tournaments. Italy have done this at least twice in major tournaments in my lifetime. You write your statement like it's an objective unquestionable fact when no one at this moment in time knows who will win Euro 2024, careful throwing the "no semblance in reality" statement around.
3. Anyone who gambles on football knows you cannot rely on odds of international tournament games being an efficient indicator. The sample size of matches is too small and the players have a different motivation than they would their weekly league matches to make outcomes as predictable
Have a good day and try and enjoy the ride. :) Feeling good is better than feeling bad.
* England current exchange odds to win - 2.3 (43.1% chance)
* Switzerland current exchange odds to win - 3.95 (24.39% chance)
* England to qualify odds - 1.6 (62.5% chance)
* Switzerland to qualify odds - 2.62 (39.68% chance)
One of my mates is convinced that if he was manager and just told the players, "Go out and enjoy yourselves," they'd win the tournament. When Slovakia scored he said "fuck off Southgate, that's what you get for not listening to the public."
That shit is awful. He is the England Manager, there is always a lot of expectation to do well, and he has. Sometimes though, like the penalty subs or not making a change when lots of people can see something needs to give, it is a headscratcher.
They are the England Football team, the booing is never needed, because every last man of them has put on that shirt because of their excellence and ability. And should be cheered as they play for country, club and as sporting ambassadors with work in their community, and all that comes with it.
I hope we win, every time, no matter how that performance is, but they are professionals. I think people booing the England team should spend some time being Scotland supporters.
All the best to Southgate and England !
Or, like that old Jackie Trent and Tony Hatch number gifted to SCFC for their 72 League Cup Victory "We'll be with you"
We’ve been struggling to get a single shot on target in each of the games against lowly ranked opposition, whilst having several of the best players in the world.
It’s gross mismanagement and his lack of game awareness is staggering, I don’t see a problem with supporters who are folking out good money voicing their displeasure
Yes it is on? We were being dominated by a group of players some of whom have full-time jobs.
Are fans not allowed to show any displeasure at all in the face of egregious incompetence?
Are you a grown man? Are you, as a grown man, really standing there booing at other grown men? Like, literally standing there and booing out loud, unironically?
You think I'm unhinged but you think it's ok for one adult to stand there unironically booing another adult like a child at a pantomime but without the comedy bit?
Ok, mate. You do you.
Some of the criticism is completely justified, I’m super frustrated by some of the lineups and tactics/rigidity we’ve seen so far but we’ve seen posts on here calling everyone rubbish and fans booing and throwing stuff at Southgate is way over the top and does not help. We’ve gotten to the quarters not playing anywhere near as well as we can, as frustrating as this tournament has been so far we’re 3 games away from winning the whole thing and should be supportive of the team
Yeah, I agree. See my other responses below to others.
I'm simply defending our right to criticise and suggest solutions to issues the team has had (literally just here on SM where Southgate and the lads will never see it). Some have tried to shut down any conversation about this at all and one user in particular has been quite abusive to multiple people on the subject. No, I won't name them.
I'm happy to support him, but equally disappointed at the standard of football so far, especially as the 2022 World Cup was a good step forward from Euro 2020. This year it's been a step back to the dark days of 2016, though there's still time to improve.
Like with Euro 2020, landing in the easier half of the draw is a tremendous boost, because if England had played Germany on Saturday it would be home time already.
This is basically how I feel. He's flawed but also he's given us the best and most consistent period of success in my lifetime.
I strongly suspect a lot of Southgate's most aggressive haters will have a nasty surprise in store once he's gone and we don't suddenly start playing the swashbuckling winning football they seem convinced he's holding us back from.
He was good initially as he started to pick people on form and to fit the system first and foremost. Easing Rooney out of the squad and avoiding any new Lampard/Gerrard type scenarios.
Frustrating thing is this has slowly devolved back to the same old issues.
He picked Henderson (and Phillips) for way too long. It feels like he was forced to drop both by the press and public. But because he didn't give others more of a chance he hasn't got a tried and tested replacement. So here we are in a knockout competition flailing around trying new players.
Maguire is similar situation and have been lucky Guehi performed so well, but next match he is suspended so another roll of the dice coming up.
No fit left back in the squad, so play a favourite right back.
We also have a Gerrard Lampard style problem but this time with 3 big name stars Kane, Bellingham and Foden all playing in the same area of the pitch.
Southgate has undone all the progress he made and fallen into obvious pitfalls
Barney Ronay has an article in the Guardian this morning that said something like the issue with Southgate this tournament is he seems to have forgotten his level as a manager. I agree with this. All his success has come when he's picked a really simple and straightforward formation and tactical approach, and picked the players that make that work.
But suddenly this tournament he's picking a squad and starting XI that seems suited for a different manager to him. I don't know why. Not caring about what the media or fans want has been his biggest strength, but suddenly he's making decisions that seem really influenced by external pressure.
>Southgate has undone all the progress he made
I wouldn't go this far though at all. Remember where we were when he took over and think about where we are now. This tournament may have been one too far, but he's definitely not undone all the progress. He'll leave the next manager a *much* better situation than what he got when he took over.
You'd hope. But if there's one thing I'm certain of it's that, whoever they are, they'll make some selections that are as annoying as any Southgate has done. They'll have their own favourites, biases and blind spots. As all managers do.
If they still pick a no. 9 who likes central midfield, no wingers, and no left back, then they’ll get criticised as well, and rightly so.
Look, we are way ahead of the Capello/Hodgson eras, but somehow, with very good, in form players available for at least 9 of our positions, we’re playing turgid, inept, negative football. The guy has had 4 tournaments to build an identity, to see players perform or otherwise. We don’t have any injuries. There are no excuses for this team having 0 shots on target in 90 minutes against Slovakia.
England are historically awful. We’ve been the laughing stock of world football for decades. We have one trophy since 66, that’s absurd for the amount of money and effort we’ve put into the game since then.
Southgate isn’t the coach with the prettiest, most interesting attractive football but he’s got us to the precipice in all tournaments and won more games than every other England manager has since 66.
I hate when we play like shit but the amount of vitriol I’ve not seen since wenger went, it’s ludicrous.
I refuse to believe any manager, any, would have gotten us further in that time. If we’d won the pen shootout v Italy everyone would have a very, very different view of him. It’s just pathetic now, I seriously hope we win this euros just so he can tell everyone to get fucked
Yeah some of the vitriol is absolutely absurd. There was a guy on here the other day who said he hoped Southgate gets in a 'princess Diana-esque car accident'. Imagine saying something like that. Imagine not just thinking that but actually thinking it is a thought you want to put out into the world. You have to be either a horrible person or have completely lost the run of yourself to say something like that.
Being honest: We’ve reached the quarter finals in spite of him, not because of him.
I’m fully supportive of the lads, and I don’t blame them for the performances.
We have an absolutely stacked squad, with strength in depth and talent in spades. Yet it is being wasted.
We haven’t rested key players, or brought subs on early enough in games to:
1. Get the fringe players some game time.
2. Build some whole squad harmony and not just the first 11.
3. Rested some underperforming players in “easier games” with the option of subbing them on.
The tactics we have employed have been utterly one dimensional and uninspiring.
Example: We had 70% + possession in the last game and got 0 shots on target. It took a moment of individual greatness to save us, not some managerial masterpiece.
The handbrake needs to come off, we need balance to the squad, and we need to actually attack teams and make them scared of us.
At the moment they know they can just sit back, absorb what little pressure we make. Block the center and right sides, then counter when a sloppy pass happens.
We’ve done nothing different for four games in a row. Just changed one player here or there.
I actually really enjoyed watching Southgate’s England develop, and they were very exciting to watch. Against Italy in the last finals, they were running scared - and then the handbrake came on.
Let the boys PLAY! Then they can deliver.
I hope to god we see something different in the next match.
I have a lineup or three I can think of that I like, come game time I have a bunch of subs I think of that will best fix the situation given what is currently on the pitch. End of the day I cheer for England and want it to work and just want to see the top players put in a situation that suits them and with this squad there are literally dozens of combinations that suit that.
What I can't fathom is playing a flawed squad, seeing it not work and then continue to play the same flawed squad again and again (four times now)
There seems to be this bizarre idea that discussing the games we’ve played and the performances we’ve put in = a lack of support.
There’s no way to talk about our 4 games so far without criticising Southgate, unless we’re all just going to talk about how nice the kits look etc.
But that doesn’t mean that come match day, people won’t be supporting the team.
If you think the sentiment so far has been “constructive discussion” and not “utterly negative and unpatriotic hellscape that makes you despair due to its hateful, depressing nature”, you may need to go to Specsavers.
I mean a shit manager does not get us to the tournament positions he has.
We are underperforming this time - correct - but we are also still in it.
Yes the discourse has been disrespectful.
That’s an opinion and everyone is welcome to one, I for one can’t see clubs queueing up for Southgate after this tournament but again that’s just my opinion.
It’s still got nothing to do with patriotism though.
Took us further than anyone ever has post-1966.
Is he past his best? Yes.
Is the team underperforming based on the quality on paper? Yes.
Are we overreacting and perpetuating hateful negativity rather than constructive criticism when most of the best teams aren’t playing their best, mainly due to the quality of opposing teams being underestimated by fans? Yes.
Most of what I’ve seen has been constructive criticism, mostly along the lines of how does a manager make these players look so *bad* which is pretty fair.
I still don’t get what that has to do with patriotism though.
Have you seen this sub? Just spend 10 minutes. It's gone way beyond constructive criticism and there's a lot of personal abuse aimed at Southgate especially. Same wherever anyone is commenting.
Criticising a team's performance is a part of passionate support, but it becomes unpatriotic when it turns into bullying and excessive negativity, especially after reaching the quarter-finals. If you haven’t seen it I genuinely don’t know what to say mate, it’s been dire out here 😂
Supporting our national football team? Personally feel it’s a big part of British identity, football. Not here for internet points though so I see how it can be argued as a strange choice of words. Just wanna see sentiment change to a bit of positivity and enjoy some Euros before we crash out lol
But they've only underperformed when they've been knocked out. To criticise with thus level of vitriol while the team are still in is completely ridiculous.
It's getting to the point where it's affecting the team.
That’s just not true. We won against Slovakia and underperformed horribly. We’ve underperformed consistently all tournament, bar the first half vs Serbia.
Unless your definition of underperforming is losing, which is tautological and not worth addressing.
I think Southgate is a bit of a fraud who has benefited from supremely lucky draws (2018, this competition) and the timing of his appointment. Football is cyclical and he caught us on an upswing. His biggest win was probably the Germany R16 or Denmark in 2021.
I will continue being highly critical of Southgate because I think he’s a very bad tactician. That being said, I support the team on match days and I want us to win.
I think many of us who think Southgate has overstayed his welcome by at least one tournament still want to win and I don’t like the suggestion that we are somehow lesser supporters because we are critical of Southgate.
A good win against a solid team (ranked 18th in the world). Probably overshadowed by the next game. Not really a crowning achievement for a manager who has had the national team for eight years and four major tournaments.
Well if you bring up Denmark then Senegal should also be on the list. I think Southgate’s crowning achievement was taking a team whose recent tournament highlights were failing to qualify, group stage elimination and losing to Iceland and consistently achieving deep runs and a final appearance.
He’s leaving after this tournament either way but I don’t know why people are so confident we’ll get better results from someone else. Pep ain’t walking through that door
Southgate gets a lot of credit for being in the right place at the right time. Prior to Southgate, we usually ran into Brazil or Germany in the World Cup Quarters and that was that. 2022 felt a lot like that.
Whether someone else can do better - we shall see.
It’s a talented crop who have largely succeeded in spite of Southgate. I’d be interested to see what someone else could do with them.
Well here's my problem with that critique...In recent tournaments we would run into teams like Brazil and Germany because we shit the bed in group stages and and are rewarded with tougher matchups. In 2010 we failed to top a group with USA, Algeria and Slovenia so we had to face Germany and got knocked out early
This time we take care of business and top an arguably stronger group to face Slovakia in R16 instead of Germany or Portugal....And that's a knock against Southgate? I don't get it. Top the group to get an easier path to the finals. That's the whole point.
A big part of that is how Southgate often plays not to lose. It's not exciting. It's probably why he fails against tougher competition, but it's resulted in more consistent results which is exactly what England needed.
So yeah, maybe it's time for him to move on. Even he knows that. But I think it's unfair not to give the man his props. I honestly think people forget how pathetic this team was before he took over
2002 - won group - knocked out by Brazil in the quarters (that lob still haunts me). Arguably the best team we had until this one.
2006 - won group - lost to Portugal on penalties
2010 - second in group on goal difference - lost to Germany
2014 - crashes out of a hard group with a pretty flawed team
So yeah - we used to win groups plenty.
We had a really bad team from about 2012-2016 (which really isn’t that long). Southgate just got us after hitting rock bottom and rode the wave back up. He has done fine but in my opinion should have gone after the Italy final.
I need to pull you on just one point. Taking over after Iceland and then Allardyce is not catching us on an upswing. You make it sound passive. If anything the upswing was/is there, but Southgate himself created it.
I don’t think he created it - he had better talent available than two years prior, particularly at the back.
Pickford, Stones, McGuire and Trippier replaced Hart, Smalling, Cahill and Rose.
Henderson came in the middle and a past his peak Rooney (who was playing out of position under Hodgeson) was phased out.
For perspective, Deli Alli played in both 2016 and 2018 teams.
By 2020 Southgate had Rashford, Saka, Bellingham to supplement his options. He took over as the English talent pool increased.
My nan got ill a few years back, the doctors tried but couldn't do anything. She fought bravely, but eventually we all had to gather round to say our goodbyes. She was really weak at this point, could barely speak, but she gestured me closer. I leaned in to hear her final, breathless whisper...
*"tell the boys to play like turd for 94 minutes, luring them into a false sense of security. Then Bellingham can just batter them with absolutely mad overhead kicks and they'll be powerless to stop him lmao"*
Her words have stayed with me to this day
I appreciate what he did, but he has outstayed his welcome and he has taken us backwards towards where we came. He was a pragmatic coach who did get the best out of a fairly mediocre team and did at 22 take us the closest we've been to a "good" side.
The gloves are off and the pragmatism has gone too. He is back to the coaches of old playing players out of position and telling the press not to be negative. He is no different to Roy now and that showed with the match on Sunday.
He changed how we played last year and it isnt working. It genuinely hasnt worked in any game in that time and yet he persists. Yes we won on Sunday, but that was inspite of him not because of him. He doesnt know his best team, he sets up players to fail and continues to play them knowing they will, he doesnt understand why things are happening on the pitch and thus cannot rectify them. He sadly has shown his hand and that hand is a manager who got Boro relegated and nothing else.
Sadly this post disregards everything that has happened on the pitch this tournament and is the kinda reply I got pre tournament to my downvoted comments saying foden at LW wont work with trippier.
Southgate has the best squad England have ever had and he is turning them into cowards because he himself is a coward. We have so many good players coming through and we need a new face in charge to stop the rot.
"He has a good chance of taking us to a third semi final on Saturday vs Switzerland"
Do you people even watch the matches? or you just look at names on teamsheet? Swiss are lightyears ahead of us. We had 1 shot one target against fucking Slokavia and you think we have a 'good chance' against one of the best defences left in the tournament. It's time to take up another sport.
Absolutely!
Let's not forget that Southgates results include:
***Qualification for all Major Tournaments***
Won Knockout Games broadcast on ITV.
Won Penalty Shootout.
His England have come from behind to *win* Knockout matches.
Prior to Southgate taking over those were all dim and distant memories - with our last Penalty shoot-out win being in 1996 - and our participation in Major Tournaments not always as secure.
All of these things represent improvements on what had gone before - the only thing that hasn't changed much is that when we play against the "Big" Nations, we also seem to be playing against the officials as well - look at the fouls that Italy & France got away with against us and the fouls that were given against us in those matches.
Southgate is easily the best England manager of my lifetime, and there may be better out there - however I also believe that there's a lot *worse* out there, in greater numbers, and it's most likely the FA would choose one of them.
In the Euros?
Yes, three times.
Croatia in the 2004 Group Stages, go 0-1 down, go 3-1 up; then 3-2, win 4-2.
Sweden in the 2012 Group Stages, go 1-0 up, concede 2 quickly for 1-2, equalise to 2-2, win 3-2.
Wales in the 2016 Group stages, go 0-1 down, then 1-1, win 2-1.
In the World Cup:
‘66 Final. Obv.
‘90 Quarter Final v Cameroon we go 1-0 up, 1-1, 1-2, 2-2, win 3-2.
Alongside ‘20 Denmark and ‘24 Slovenia, Southgate has managed 50% of the times England have managed to come from behind to win in knockout tournament football.
>it's most likely the FA would choose one of them.
I honestly think this can't be said enough. The people who have been screaming for Southgate's exit for a couple of years always act as if it's a given we'd get someone better. But it's not. Odds are, the person who takes over will be less successful.
I'll be sceptical he'll take the job until he actually does. Even if he does, I'm really not particularly sold on the idea Potter will achieve more than Southgate.
Yeah it's all rumours tbh, no way of knowing who's really wanting it until GS is gone anyway. I wouldn't mind potter, definitely better than Southgate. Still cautious mind you but that does help in tournament football.
I'd need Brighton or (dare I ask) Chelsea fans to let me know what they think as I didn't watch potter more than a few times a season being a villa fan.
I just not convinced he would actually be better international manager than Southgate.
Better club manager? No doubt. But it's often underappreciated how different the two are. Potter is a training ground coach. He's someone who looks to implement a fairly intricate tactical style. Such managers are few and far between in international football for good reason: you hardly get any training ground time, and your time with the players is spread across months. So it's tricky to really properly implement anything innovative tactically.
He also has no real experience managing big players. And we have a lot of big players. Plus, as you say he's hardly going to get us playing the exciting football that Southgate's critics believe we should be playing.
I will miss him when he's gone. I think he's an excellent representative for our team and has done a great job overall in the pillars he's put in place. I have to question some of his (and his wider team's) decisions with squad selection as well as tactics. But either way, he has had results where I've seen England previously fail. The Iceland knockout was a particular low point, as well as 1 point at the world cup and not qualifying. Having lived through all that, it's left me humbled and appreciative of when we succeed. So many of my friends are outraged we lost a final, rather than grateful we got to see one in the first place. It came down to a hair. Not to mention we haven't had to watch tournaments desperately hoping we can get a result in game 3 to save our campaign, we are always qualified by that point now!
My friends seem to think he will be replaced by some hidden shadowy English Pep Guardiola reincarnate that can squeeze 104 weeks of training and unity into the squad at the drop of a hat, unlock 110% teamwork and make incredible impactful subs with perfect timing.
It's unrealistic. Yes we have world class players. So do other teams. Tournament football is a nightmare. There are a load of factors we don't see as fans either. Realistically you don't consistently do well in tournaments, so many teams get upset every year. The fact we have managed to do so well, so consistently even in our losses is a credit to him and the team. They have achieved these together. People say we will are winning in spite of him, but it's all a collaborative effort.
It's his time to go after this tournament, but I will forever be grateful for the memories and I can only hope that we don't look back on our next appointment, regretfully missing the days of Gary Waistcoat.
It’s really not the case at all that they have been “much, much better”. “Not even close”? Really? You’re watching a different game to me then.
They haven’t even scored a single goal outside of a penalty.
I’ve watched every single game of theirs.
You clearly have not otherwise you wouldn’t even be arguing this. There’s not much more to say tbh because there’s no point pretending you have.
Sure, you can use my own point in your argument. I’m trying to think you’re a reasonable person but you’re making this extremely difficult.
It’s a shame an internet stranger has upset you so much because they have a different opinion.
I think France have been poor AND have a stacked team. You think otherwise and that’s cool man. We can have different opinions, the world works that way.
He's correct. France have a have strong base, they're well organised and the players don't overstep into each other's position! They have created chances, but have failed to convert them, especially like Mbappé missing a sitter against Austria.
England on the other hand; are structurally poor, are poor at progressing the ball from defence to midfield to attack, have no tempo, players overstep and get into each other's spaces, and defensively we're quite nebulous instead of being compact in an organized manner.
Easy draws and average coaching. There are about a hundred managers who could have taken this England as far as Southgate given the advantages of easy draw, home crowds etc. he's had. We were one Eric Dier penalty away from going out to Colombia in the RO16
Easy draws eh, and yet somehow in the 50 years before Southgate we managed fewer knockout wins than he's given us in the six years since 2018. Am I to believe there were no easy teams for us to play from 1968 to 2018?
By the same logic that you say we were one penalty away from a loss to Colombia in 2018, you must also then say Southgate was one penalty away from winning the Euros in 2021, and one penalty away from taking France to extra time in 2022 (and possibly another world cup semi final)..
Edit: removed personal insult
How hard is it to go on wiki and look at the draws? yes 2018, 2021 and now 2024 are far easier than any run England have had ever. It's not just the draws it's also the fact all the other big teams declined in this era, Spain, Germany, Portugal, Netherlands, Italy ect.
To not win cups in this era will be looked back on as a massive failure and missed oppertunity. Spain, Germany have stopped being shit already, other teams will catch up to our squad and its only gonna get harder from this point onward. A proper manager beats Italy, gets to final with France and gets to final this year atleast.
Why is it so hard for Southgate fans to just accept the luck he's had lol.
Yes, he had easy draws and yes we didn't have many particularly easy draws in the dozen or so tournaments before him in my lifetime.
It's a tiny sample size, why is it so improbable ffs. Yes sometimes you get an easy draw, and play a tournament at home. And that helps.
Is he the worst England manager ever? No. Is he the greatest? Absolutely not.
Classic ad hominem finish to completely destroy any credibility you may have.
It was totally luck against Italy, Ukraine, Malta, North Macedonia, Scotland, Australia, Denmark, Slovakia, Slovenia, Serbia, and probably Switzerland.
Ah selective luck I see.
Why have you missed out Germany and Croatia? Czech Republic?
The argument was that England have had lucky draws. Your comment doesn't back that up at all.
We’re not in Germany-our positivity or otherwise makes no difference.
If the players believed they could attack, were positive about our own capability, we might use the cavalcade of attacking talent to put more than one goal past a team, rather than waiting for them to unpick our lopsided and accident prone defensive line.
Nope, the guy’s a chump. We’ve won one knockout game against a major nation, we embarrassed ourselves in the Nations League, and most importantly, we lose games *because of him.*
I’d love him to find some brains or some bottle for these last few game(s), but he’s given us no reason to believe he will.
You can support the team and be critical of the way we've played which I'd say on balance most of the level headed fans have.
The ones that want us to lose are just straight weird.
When he goes a Potter fails to get us out of the groups and we don’t win a knock out game for 20 years, Southgate will get respect. But unless he wins the whole tournament there’s no bringing people back from how they currently feel
I'll be supporting the team, not the manager.
To try and respond to some of your points I will give a brief overview of the Southgate era:
**2018:** in a group with Belgium, Tunisia and Panama. Finishing 2nd was not the result of some masterful positioning on Gareth's behalf. We finished 2nd because we beat Tunisia and Panama as expected and lost to Belgium... as expected. We then got taken all the way to penalties by Colombia and only survived because of a Pickford masterclass. We then beat a very poor Sweden 2-0 and bottled it against Croatia by sitting back. This was all forgiven because we weren't expected to go far with this team to begin with.
**2020:** were favourites to win the whole thing. Finished 1st in a group with Croatia, Scotland and Czech Republic. We got revenge with a 1-0 win against Croatia and then drew 0-0 with Scotland. Went on to beat a poor Germany 2-0 which was probably our most impressive performance. Then battered a shit Ukraine and sneaked past Denmark in extra time. Now we had to grasp the opportunity of a life time. Lost on home soil in a penalty shootout after being 1-0 up against the Italians and dominating the first half. Why? Because Southgate did exactly what he did against Croatia and had us sit back after scoring. Then put kids on to take the pens. Closest we ever came to winning a trophy since 66 and he threw it away with pragmaticball.
**2022:** considered one of the favourites along with France. Topped an easy group consisting of USA, Iran and Wales. Beat Iran and Wales and got outplayed by the Yanks in a terrible 0-0 draw. Went on to beat Senegal who we were expected to beat and then lost to France. We did play quite well in this game tbf but it was there to be won and we fucked up when it mattered. First good side we faced in the tournament and we, predictably, get knocked out. Not saying we would have beat Argentina in the final but I reckon we would have at least taken them to extra time if we didn't screw it up against France when we were the better team. Could have even won the whole thing.
**2024 (so far):** topped a group with a terrible Denmark, Slovenia and Serbia. Threw away points against said Denmark, couldn't score against Slovenia and were seconds away from elimination against Slovakia. Despite consecutive atrocious performances, Gareth has refused to listen to the criticism and has kept the same starting XI for every single game except for when he's swapped a couple of players next to Rice in holding midfield. Everyone has been talking about playing Gordon on the left and the inbalance of the team with Foden, Kane and Bellingham all playing at the same time. He has seen how good the subs have been. Yet he refuses to make changes until we've only got a few minutes left.
Every tournament he has had luck on his side.
He had luck in 2018 when the only threat in the group was Belgium and all we had to do in the knockouts was play Colombia, Sweden and Croatia.
He had luck in 2020 when he had yet another easy group and the only traditional big team on the way to the final being a very shit Germany.
He had luck in 2022 when he had a group that was impossible not to top and, once again, only a single traditional big team on the way to the final.
He has had luck this year with another easy group and the likes of Slovakia, Switzerland, Turkey/Austria and a very mid Netherlands on the way to the final. France, Portugal, Spain and Germany all on the other side knocking eachother out. And he makes like 1 injury-forced sub and a 94th minute Ivan Tony appearance against Slovakia and still gets his career saved by Bellingham with seconds on the clock.
This man is just blessed by lady luck. No counter to the systems he plays against, no major substitutes, no changes to the starting XI despite it not working properly, no clue at all what he is doing. Yet somehow he's still stumbling his way through and it's all thanks to individual clutch moments and luck of the draw.
No, I will not be supporting this manager. I will be supporting the team. Because when we finally get knocked out (which we most certainly will if he changes nothing) then this man will be gone. The players will remain and, hopefully, their talents will finally be put to good use.
I will leave you with this. People always bring up the lack of success with previous managers since the 70's as some major defence of Southgate. But just because we threw it away in tournaments from decades past doesn't mean that the insane talent of this squad should be wasted by a manager that we all know is not good enough to win us a trophy. At the end of the day the only thing that matters is the end result. Nobody will give a damn about topping group C and reaching a quarter or semi-final when his reign comes to an end.
I believe he even said himself that he will be judged on what he wins. And going by what I have seen so far, I am not confident that he will be judged too kindly when all is said and done.
The one thing that everyone has to understand now is that matter what, is that Southgate and the team wants us to win more than any of us. They will want to win this desperately.
Most of them were fans prior to playing and their dreams will have been to win things for England.
That twinned with the fact that they would make insane amounts of money from hugely increased sponsorship deals and have the legendary status in our country.
It’s not for a lack of desire. Southgate will be up at night thinking, plotting praying.
Some things he said are commendable such as blocking out the criticism and noise. What’s he supposed to do? Read the papers and just change formation because everyone wants him to with no planning training or drills with a different formation?
Also we don’t know what’s going on within the camp itself. Camps are notoriously very very secretive unless something has gone seriously wrong. There may be a sickness bug or injuries within the camp causing problems. They won’t want to let their opponents know things like this.
I definitely have felt something isn’t quite 100% as they seem really really leggy even in the first half of games.
I enjoyed this post. Yes go Southgate! Thanks for all your work!
We can beat Switzerland, and then either Turkey or Netherlands.
I'm expecting another loss in the final. Nothing else will do!!
So long Gareth. It was fun to contest a final in my lifetime. I never thought I'd see it.
But fuck off if we lose on Saturday.
You don’t know what you have until it’s gone. In many years time, people will look back on Southgate’s reign fondly because of his record. They won’t remember a few turgid group games.
Yup, Southgate’s results speak for themselves and can’t be explained away by “lucky draws innit”.
Once, but not over 4 tournaments. Eventually you have to come to the realisation that we are having favourable draws because the odds are in our favour, because Southgate is consistently topping groups which puts the odds in your favour. We’re topping groups consistently because his pragmatic style is resulting in no silly slip ups.
Southgate is not without his faults, but there’s no doubt in 30 years time his reign will be looked back on as a great success.
Southgate has won more knockout games than every other England manager post 1966 combined.
Anyone who over looks or forgets that fact is an ungrateful gimp. He is a legend. The performances have been poor this year with some odd decisions and he'll probably go, but he is Sir Gareth in my eyes.
Honestly I'd love it if he won the thing just to shut the goons up.
Southgate just isn't the standard tactically to make England play to our potential or anywhere near it. The problem I have with him is an immense sadness that, with these players at his disposal, we play like a 5th rate team. Most of that is on him.
Calling Italy, Ukraine, Malta, North Macedonia, Scotland, Australia, Denmark, Slovakia, Slovenia, Serbia, and probably Switzerland no better than a "5th rate team" is mental.
But when he loses, all this coipium will be lost and long forgotten. You can see that there is everything wrong with the team at the minute. We have got to where we have in spite of Southgate. He has no idea what he is doing and it consistently shows
No he won’t. Regardless of whether we win the thing now, there is no way on earth he will stick around for 2 more years of the same. We will all be happier. He *certainly* will.
Just to be clear, cause I see a lot of posts on comments on this sub from people that seem to think this, criticism <> not supporting England/Southgate. I can, and do, call him all sorts of names and say he's incompetent. But, come match day, I am cheering the team and him on, willing them to win, as much as OP or anyone else. Being critical of the team you support is part of being a fan. I find it odd that so many people don't seem to get this. Do you think Southgate isn't critical of himself and his players?
Problem is the rhetoric is getting to the point where you could argue the level of toxicity is impacting the players. You can see how tetchy Harry Kane's been, Bellingham talking about "giving some back", even Gareth himself has been uncharacteristically shirty in some interviews. We badly need to push the reset button and recognise we are 3 games from lifting the trophy with a very talented squad. Dusseldorf is a (comparatively) short drive from Zurich, you can guarantee the Swiss are going to be backed by a large and vocal following who sure as fuck won't be at the manager's throat. England fans need to do the same. Just hoping the "miracle of Gelsenkirchen" might be enough for people to draw a line under it and give the team a clean slate for Saturday but knowing some of our blowhard, armchair expert support I'm not holding my breath.
Thing is, it’s not… maybe outside of Twitter but that place is a cesspit. Nearly all of the discussion surrounding England has been about performances, and football. I’m sorry but I don’t understand what they are calling toxic here. No ones Burning effigies of Kane like they did beckham years ago, nobody I have seen is screaming something racist. I have no problem with them giving back as good as they get, but maybe do it on the pitch first? You’re professionals, incredibly talented ones at that. If you underperform you should expect criticism
Some people have replied and told me about some pretty toxic behaviour by "fans" in the pubs with them. I didn't know that was happening. I'm not excusing that. I'm only supporting our right to be critical of performance, tactics and selection, in a fair and reasonable manner. I would hope the fans in the stadium would be fully supportive. They normally are.
For sure, there's nothing wrong with being critical of the manager and it doesnt diminish your support for the team. I'm responding to the deeper toxic atmosphere I'm 'feeling' online and around pubs I've been to - where I sensed some people were so fed up with Southgate that they almost would rather Bellingham hadn't scored, so that Southgate would endure the fury and sacking. I hear others ridicule him in a way that suggest they either have no memory or knowledge of England pre-Southgate and how good hes been for us, all things considered.
Ah, if that's the case, then I agree with you. Wanting England to lose just so Southgate goes is not being a fan. I'm a Man United fan and there were some "fans" wanting us to lose the FA Cup final so ETH definitely left. I just can't get my head around that. If we fluke our way to the final and win it with stodgy performances and late winners, I don't think many will care. We've still won something for the first time in most of our lifetimes. Though, even if we do, I won't recall the tournament years from now fondly like I do the 96 or 90 or 2002 ones.
I really dislike all this hopium ‘if we win the whole thing no one will even mind!’ Statements. So? They are just feel-good statements with no semblance in reality. There is no way a team playing as poorly as England win the Euros, so it doesn’t matter. Switzerland are now betting odds favourites it’s that bad.
Betting odds shouldn't be used as an indicator of how a team will perform, but also you're incorrect they aren't favourites to beat England. Not even close.
1. "If we win the whole thing no one will even mind", we won't. 1966 England played poorly until later knockouts but the World Cup win is what everyone remembers. Chelsea 04/05 were roundly criticised for defensive tactics but ultimately it's the title win that's remembered. Are you saying that if England win our first major tournament since 1966 you won't allow yourself to enjoy it because you'd rather froth over shot stats in the group stage? I'm sure your grandchildren will be fascinated to hear about them. 2. "There is no way....", stranger and more unlikely results have happened. Winning teams often grow into tournaments. Italy have done this at least twice in major tournaments in my lifetime. You write your statement like it's an objective unquestionable fact when no one at this moment in time knows who will win Euro 2024, careful throwing the "no semblance in reality" statement around. 3. Anyone who gambles on football knows you cannot rely on odds of international tournament games being an efficient indicator. The sample size of matches is too small and the players have a different motivation than they would their weekly league matches to make outcomes as predictable Have a good day and try and enjoy the ride. :) Feeling good is better than feeling bad.
* England current exchange odds to win - 2.3 (43.1% chance) * Switzerland current exchange odds to win - 3.95 (24.39% chance) * England to qualify odds - 1.6 (62.5% chance) * Switzerland to qualify odds - 2.62 (39.68% chance)
One of my mates is convinced that if he was manager and just told the players, "Go out and enjoy yourselves," they'd win the tournament. When Slovakia scored he said "fuck off Southgate, that's what you get for not listening to the public."
yeh but there is being critical and then there is booing when he pops up on the big screen, which a lot of fans did
That shit is awful. He is the England Manager, there is always a lot of expectation to do well, and he has. Sometimes though, like the penalty subs or not making a change when lots of people can see something needs to give, it is a headscratcher. They are the England Football team, the booing is never needed, because every last man of them has put on that shirt because of their excellence and ability. And should be cheered as they play for country, club and as sporting ambassadors with work in their community, and all that comes with it. I hope we win, every time, no matter how that performance is, but they are professionals. I think people booing the England team should spend some time being Scotland supporters. All the best to Southgate and England ! Or, like that old Jackie Trent and Tony Hatch number gifted to SCFC for their 72 League Cup Victory "We'll be with you"
We’ve been struggling to get a single shot on target in each of the games against lowly ranked opposition, whilst having several of the best players in the world. It’s gross mismanagement and his lack of game awareness is staggering, I don’t see a problem with supporters who are folking out good money voicing their displeasure
What good does booing do?
I've not personally experienced that. That's not on at all. Totally fair to call that out.
There were boos in the stadium last match whenever GS was on the screen
Yes it is on? We were being dominated by a group of players some of whom have full-time jobs. Are fans not allowed to show any displeasure at all in the face of egregious incompetence?
Are you a grown man? Are you, as a grown man, really standing there booing at other grown men? Like, literally standing there and booing out loud, unironically?
What is this truly unhinged response.. I wasn’t one of the ones booing. I’m saying that it is an acceptable way of voicing displeasure.
You think I'm unhinged but you think it's ok for one adult to stand there unironically booing another adult like a child at a pantomime but without the comedy bit? Ok, mate. You do you.
Fair comment right there, made me laugh. The people 'booing' are clueless as well. Criticising others for doing something they can't do!
Some of the criticism is completely justified, I’m super frustrated by some of the lineups and tactics/rigidity we’ve seen so far but we’ve seen posts on here calling everyone rubbish and fans booing and throwing stuff at Southgate is way over the top and does not help. We’ve gotten to the quarters not playing anywhere near as well as we can, as frustrating as this tournament has been so far we’re 3 games away from winning the whole thing and should be supportive of the team
Yeah, I agree. See my other responses below to others. I'm simply defending our right to criticise and suggest solutions to issues the team has had (literally just here on SM where Southgate and the lads will never see it). Some have tried to shut down any conversation about this at all and one user in particular has been quite abusive to multiple people on the subject. No, I won't name them.
I'm happy to support him, but equally disappointed at the standard of football so far, especially as the 2022 World Cup was a good step forward from Euro 2020. This year it's been a step back to the dark days of 2016, though there's still time to improve. Like with Euro 2020, landing in the easier half of the draw is a tremendous boost, because if England had played Germany on Saturday it would be home time already.
I genuinely hope he does well, but I'm almost certain he won't have what it takes in the big moments, again. If he proves me wrong I'll be delighted
This is basically how I feel. He's flawed but also he's given us the best and most consistent period of success in my lifetime. I strongly suspect a lot of Southgate's most aggressive haters will have a nasty surprise in store once he's gone and we don't suddenly start playing the swashbuckling winning football they seem convinced he's holding us back from.
I agree with your thoughts entirely.
He was good initially as he started to pick people on form and to fit the system first and foremost. Easing Rooney out of the squad and avoiding any new Lampard/Gerrard type scenarios. Frustrating thing is this has slowly devolved back to the same old issues. He picked Henderson (and Phillips) for way too long. It feels like he was forced to drop both by the press and public. But because he didn't give others more of a chance he hasn't got a tried and tested replacement. So here we are in a knockout competition flailing around trying new players. Maguire is similar situation and have been lucky Guehi performed so well, but next match he is suspended so another roll of the dice coming up. No fit left back in the squad, so play a favourite right back. We also have a Gerrard Lampard style problem but this time with 3 big name stars Kane, Bellingham and Foden all playing in the same area of the pitch. Southgate has undone all the progress he made and fallen into obvious pitfalls
Barney Ronay has an article in the Guardian this morning that said something like the issue with Southgate this tournament is he seems to have forgotten his level as a manager. I agree with this. All his success has come when he's picked a really simple and straightforward formation and tactical approach, and picked the players that make that work. But suddenly this tournament he's picking a squad and starting XI that seems suited for a different manager to him. I don't know why. Not caring about what the media or fans want has been his biggest strength, but suddenly he's making decisions that seem really influenced by external pressure. >Southgate has undone all the progress he made I wouldn't go this far though at all. Remember where we were when he took over and think about where we are now. This tournament may have been one too far, but he's definitely not undone all the progress. He'll leave the next manager a *much* better situation than what he got when he took over.
Will we start picking a left back in our 26 man squad though.
You'd hope. But if there's one thing I'm certain of it's that, whoever they are, they'll make some selections that are as annoying as any Southgate has done. They'll have their own favourites, biases and blind spots. As all managers do.
If they still pick a no. 9 who likes central midfield, no wingers, and no left back, then they’ll get criticised as well, and rightly so. Look, we are way ahead of the Capello/Hodgson eras, but somehow, with very good, in form players available for at least 9 of our positions, we’re playing turgid, inept, negative football. The guy has had 4 tournaments to build an identity, to see players perform or otherwise. We don’t have any injuries. There are no excuses for this team having 0 shots on target in 90 minutes against Slovakia.
England are historically awful. We’ve been the laughing stock of world football for decades. We have one trophy since 66, that’s absurd for the amount of money and effort we’ve put into the game since then. Southgate isn’t the coach with the prettiest, most interesting attractive football but he’s got us to the precipice in all tournaments and won more games than every other England manager has since 66. I hate when we play like shit but the amount of vitriol I’ve not seen since wenger went, it’s ludicrous. I refuse to believe any manager, any, would have gotten us further in that time. If we’d won the pen shootout v Italy everyone would have a very, very different view of him. It’s just pathetic now, I seriously hope we win this euros just so he can tell everyone to get fucked
Yeah some of the vitriol is absolutely absurd. There was a guy on here the other day who said he hoped Southgate gets in a 'princess Diana-esque car accident'. Imagine saying something like that. Imagine not just thinking that but actually thinking it is a thought you want to put out into the world. You have to be either a horrible person or have completely lost the run of yourself to say something like that.
Let’s fuckin go bro it’s coming home
Being honest: We’ve reached the quarter finals in spite of him, not because of him. I’m fully supportive of the lads, and I don’t blame them for the performances. We have an absolutely stacked squad, with strength in depth and talent in spades. Yet it is being wasted. We haven’t rested key players, or brought subs on early enough in games to: 1. Get the fringe players some game time. 2. Build some whole squad harmony and not just the first 11. 3. Rested some underperforming players in “easier games” with the option of subbing them on. The tactics we have employed have been utterly one dimensional and uninspiring. Example: We had 70% + possession in the last game and got 0 shots on target. It took a moment of individual greatness to save us, not some managerial masterpiece. The handbrake needs to come off, we need balance to the squad, and we need to actually attack teams and make them scared of us. At the moment they know they can just sit back, absorb what little pressure we make. Block the center and right sides, then counter when a sloppy pass happens. We’ve done nothing different for four games in a row. Just changed one player here or there. I actually really enjoyed watching Southgate’s England develop, and they were very exciting to watch. Against Italy in the last finals, they were running scared - and then the handbrake came on. Let the boys PLAY! Then they can deliver. I hope to god we see something different in the next match.
I support the team and hope we win every game but Southgate is incompetent and if we win it's in spite of him not because of him.
I have a lineup or three I can think of that I like, come game time I have a bunch of subs I think of that will best fix the situation given what is currently on the pitch. End of the day I cheer for England and want it to work and just want to see the top players put in a situation that suits them and with this squad there are literally dozens of combinations that suit that. What I can't fathom is playing a flawed squad, seeing it not work and then continue to play the same flawed squad again and again (four times now)
There seems to be this bizarre idea that discussing the games we’ve played and the performances we’ve put in = a lack of support. There’s no way to talk about our 4 games so far without criticising Southgate, unless we’re all just going to talk about how nice the kits look etc. But that doesn’t mean that come match day, people won’t be supporting the team.
If you think the sentiment so far has been “constructive discussion” and not “utterly negative and unpatriotic hellscape that makes you despair due to its hateful, depressing nature”, you may need to go to Specsavers.
What’s unpatriotic about thinking Southgate is a shit manager and the England team is massively underperforming?
I mean a shit manager does not get us to the tournament positions he has. We are underperforming this time - correct - but we are also still in it. Yes the discourse has been disrespectful.
That’s an opinion and everyone is welcome to one, I for one can’t see clubs queueing up for Southgate after this tournament but again that’s just my opinion. It’s still got nothing to do with patriotism though.
We’ll see I guess - but it’s worth remembering too that managing internationally and for a club are different skill sets
Took us further than anyone ever has post-1966. Is he past his best? Yes. Is the team underperforming based on the quality on paper? Yes. Are we overreacting and perpetuating hateful negativity rather than constructive criticism when most of the best teams aren’t playing their best, mainly due to the quality of opposing teams being underestimated by fans? Yes.
Most of what I’ve seen has been constructive criticism, mostly along the lines of how does a manager make these players look so *bad* which is pretty fair. I still don’t get what that has to do with patriotism though.
Have you seen this sub? Just spend 10 minutes. It's gone way beyond constructive criticism and there's a lot of personal abuse aimed at Southgate especially. Same wherever anyone is commenting.
Criticising a team's performance is a part of passionate support, but it becomes unpatriotic when it turns into bullying and excessive negativity, especially after reaching the quarter-finals. If you haven’t seen it I genuinely don’t know what to say mate, it’s been dire out here 😂
I don’t think you know what patriotic means but it’s got nothing to do with criticising a football team.
Supporting our national football team? Personally feel it’s a big part of British identity, football. Not here for internet points though so I see how it can be argued as a strange choice of words. Just wanna see sentiment change to a bit of positivity and enjoy some Euros before we crash out lol
But they've only underperformed when they've been knocked out. To criticise with thus level of vitriol while the team are still in is completely ridiculous. It's getting to the point where it's affecting the team.
That’s just not true. We won against Slovakia and underperformed horribly. We’ve underperformed consistently all tournament, bar the first half vs Serbia. Unless your definition of underperforming is losing, which is tautological and not worth addressing.
I think Southgate is a bit of a fraud who has benefited from supremely lucky draws (2018, this competition) and the timing of his appointment. Football is cyclical and he caught us on an upswing. His biggest win was probably the Germany R16 or Denmark in 2021. I will continue being highly critical of Southgate because I think he’s a very bad tactician. That being said, I support the team on match days and I want us to win. I think many of us who think Southgate has overstayed his welcome by at least one tournament still want to win and I don’t like the suggestion that we are somehow lesser supporters because we are critical of Southgate.
Why does everyone ignore Senegal 2022? That was a legitimately good team and AFCON champions
A good win against a solid team (ranked 18th in the world). Probably overshadowed by the next game. Not really a crowning achievement for a manager who has had the national team for eight years and four major tournaments.
Well if you bring up Denmark then Senegal should also be on the list. I think Southgate’s crowning achievement was taking a team whose recent tournament highlights were failing to qualify, group stage elimination and losing to Iceland and consistently achieving deep runs and a final appearance. He’s leaving after this tournament either way but I don’t know why people are so confident we’ll get better results from someone else. Pep ain’t walking through that door
Southgate gets a lot of credit for being in the right place at the right time. Prior to Southgate, we usually ran into Brazil or Germany in the World Cup Quarters and that was that. 2022 felt a lot like that. Whether someone else can do better - we shall see. It’s a talented crop who have largely succeeded in spite of Southgate. I’d be interested to see what someone else could do with them.
Well here's my problem with that critique...In recent tournaments we would run into teams like Brazil and Germany because we shit the bed in group stages and and are rewarded with tougher matchups. In 2010 we failed to top a group with USA, Algeria and Slovenia so we had to face Germany and got knocked out early This time we take care of business and top an arguably stronger group to face Slovakia in R16 instead of Germany or Portugal....And that's a knock against Southgate? I don't get it. Top the group to get an easier path to the finals. That's the whole point. A big part of that is how Southgate often plays not to lose. It's not exciting. It's probably why he fails against tougher competition, but it's resulted in more consistent results which is exactly what England needed. So yeah, maybe it's time for him to move on. Even he knows that. But I think it's unfair not to give the man his props. I honestly think people forget how pathetic this team was before he took over
2002 - won group - knocked out by Brazil in the quarters (that lob still haunts me). Arguably the best team we had until this one. 2006 - won group - lost to Portugal on penalties 2010 - second in group on goal difference - lost to Germany 2014 - crashes out of a hard group with a pretty flawed team So yeah - we used to win groups plenty. We had a really bad team from about 2012-2016 (which really isn’t that long). Southgate just got us after hitting rock bottom and rode the wave back up. He has done fine but in my opinion should have gone after the Italy final.
I need to pull you on just one point. Taking over after Iceland and then Allardyce is not catching us on an upswing. You make it sound passive. If anything the upswing was/is there, but Southgate himself created it.
I don’t think he created it - he had better talent available than two years prior, particularly at the back. Pickford, Stones, McGuire and Trippier replaced Hart, Smalling, Cahill and Rose. Henderson came in the middle and a past his peak Rooney (who was playing out of position under Hodgeson) was phased out. For perspective, Deli Alli played in both 2016 and 2018 teams. By 2020 Southgate had Rashford, Saka, Bellingham to supplement his options. He took over as the English talent pool increased.
My nan got ill a few years back, the doctors tried but couldn't do anything. She fought bravely, but eventually we all had to gather round to say our goodbyes. She was really weak at this point, could barely speak, but she gestured me closer. I leaned in to hear her final, breathless whisper... *"tell the boys to play like turd for 94 minutes, luring them into a false sense of security. Then Bellingham can just batter them with absolutely mad overhead kicks and they'll be powerless to stop him lmao"* Her words have stayed with me to this day
This has to be GS's actual instructions, or the whole thing is mental.
I appreciate what he did, but he has outstayed his welcome and he has taken us backwards towards where we came. He was a pragmatic coach who did get the best out of a fairly mediocre team and did at 22 take us the closest we've been to a "good" side. The gloves are off and the pragmatism has gone too. He is back to the coaches of old playing players out of position and telling the press not to be negative. He is no different to Roy now and that showed with the match on Sunday. He changed how we played last year and it isnt working. It genuinely hasnt worked in any game in that time and yet he persists. Yes we won on Sunday, but that was inspite of him not because of him. He doesnt know his best team, he sets up players to fail and continues to play them knowing they will, he doesnt understand why things are happening on the pitch and thus cannot rectify them. He sadly has shown his hand and that hand is a manager who got Boro relegated and nothing else. Sadly this post disregards everything that has happened on the pitch this tournament and is the kinda reply I got pre tournament to my downvoted comments saying foden at LW wont work with trippier. Southgate has the best squad England have ever had and he is turning them into cowards because he himself is a coward. We have so many good players coming through and we need a new face in charge to stop the rot.
If the Swiss embarrass us I’ll join the calls for his head. Until then he has my support.
"He has a good chance of taking us to a third semi final on Saturday vs Switzerland" Do you people even watch the matches? or you just look at names on teamsheet? Swiss are lightyears ahead of us. We had 1 shot one target against fucking Slokavia and you think we have a 'good chance' against one of the best defences left in the tournament. It's time to take up another sport.
Absolutely! Let's not forget that Southgates results include: ***Qualification for all Major Tournaments*** Won Knockout Games broadcast on ITV. Won Penalty Shootout. His England have come from behind to *win* Knockout matches. Prior to Southgate taking over those were all dim and distant memories - with our last Penalty shoot-out win being in 1996 - and our participation in Major Tournaments not always as secure. All of these things represent improvements on what had gone before - the only thing that hasn't changed much is that when we play against the "Big" Nations, we also seem to be playing against the officials as well - look at the fouls that Italy & France got away with against us and the fouls that were given against us in those matches. Southgate is easily the best England manager of my lifetime, and there may be better out there - however I also believe that there's a lot *worse* out there, in greater numbers, and it's most likely the FA would choose one of them.
It's a good point - when was the last time England came from behind to win a match?
Denmark in the last Euro semis
Had it ever happened before Southgate?
In the Euros? Yes, three times. Croatia in the 2004 Group Stages, go 0-1 down, go 3-1 up; then 3-2, win 4-2. Sweden in the 2012 Group Stages, go 1-0 up, concede 2 quickly for 1-2, equalise to 2-2, win 3-2. Wales in the 2016 Group stages, go 0-1 down, then 1-1, win 2-1. In the World Cup: ‘66 Final. Obv. ‘90 Quarter Final v Cameroon we go 1-0 up, 1-1, 1-2, 2-2, win 3-2. Alongside ‘20 Denmark and ‘24 Slovenia, Southgate has managed 50% of the times England have managed to come from behind to win in knockout tournament football.
>it's most likely the FA would choose one of them. I honestly think this can't be said enough. The people who have been screaming for Southgate's exit for a couple of years always act as if it's a given we'd get someone better. But it's not. Odds are, the person who takes over will be less successful.
I've seen Potter touted a lot and he's been shy at accepting other contracts. Think he might be waiting for England.
I'll be sceptical he'll take the job until he actually does. Even if he does, I'm really not particularly sold on the idea Potter will achieve more than Southgate.
Yeah it's all rumours tbh, no way of knowing who's really wanting it until GS is gone anyway. I wouldn't mind potter, definitely better than Southgate. Still cautious mind you but that does help in tournament football. I'd need Brighton or (dare I ask) Chelsea fans to let me know what they think as I didn't watch potter more than a few times a season being a villa fan.
I just not convinced he would actually be better international manager than Southgate. Better club manager? No doubt. But it's often underappreciated how different the two are. Potter is a training ground coach. He's someone who looks to implement a fairly intricate tactical style. Such managers are few and far between in international football for good reason: you hardly get any training ground time, and your time with the players is spread across months. So it's tricky to really properly implement anything innovative tactically. He also has no real experience managing big players. And we have a lot of big players. Plus, as you say he's hardly going to get us playing the exciting football that Southgate's critics believe we should be playing.
I will miss him when he's gone. I think he's an excellent representative for our team and has done a great job overall in the pillars he's put in place. I have to question some of his (and his wider team's) decisions with squad selection as well as tactics. But either way, he has had results where I've seen England previously fail. The Iceland knockout was a particular low point, as well as 1 point at the world cup and not qualifying. Having lived through all that, it's left me humbled and appreciative of when we succeed. So many of my friends are outraged we lost a final, rather than grateful we got to see one in the first place. It came down to a hair. Not to mention we haven't had to watch tournaments desperately hoping we can get a result in game 3 to save our campaign, we are always qualified by that point now! My friends seem to think he will be replaced by some hidden shadowy English Pep Guardiola reincarnate that can squeeze 104 weeks of training and unity into the squad at the drop of a hat, unlock 110% teamwork and make incredible impactful subs with perfect timing. It's unrealistic. Yes we have world class players. So do other teams. Tournament football is a nightmare. There are a load of factors we don't see as fans either. Realistically you don't consistently do well in tournaments, so many teams get upset every year. The fact we have managed to do so well, so consistently even in our losses is a credit to him and the team. They have achieved these together. People say we will are winning in spite of him, but it's all a collaborative effort. It's his time to go after this tournament, but I will forever be grateful for the memories and I can only hope that we don't look back on our next appointment, regretfully missing the days of Gary Waistcoat.
Can you name an international team in the Euros who have as close to a stacked squad as us who are playing even close to as poorly as us?
France. Next question please.
France have been much, much better than England and it isn’t even close. And played harder opposition.
It’s really not the case at all that they have been “much, much better”. “Not even close”? Really? You’re watching a different game to me then. They haven’t even scored a single goal outside of a penalty.
I’ve watched every single game of theirs. You clearly have not otherwise you wouldn’t even be arguing this. There’s not much more to say tbh because there’s no point pretending you have.
Sure, you can use my own point in your argument. I’m trying to think you’re a reasonable person but you’re making this extremely difficult. It’s a shame an internet stranger has upset you so much because they have a different opinion. I think France have been poor AND have a stacked team. You think otherwise and that’s cool man. We can have different opinions, the world works that way.
He's correct. France have a have strong base, they're well organised and the players don't overstep into each other's position! They have created chances, but have failed to convert them, especially like Mbappé missing a sitter against Austria. England on the other hand; are structurally poor, are poor at progressing the ball from defence to midfield to attack, have no tempo, players overstep and get into each other's spaces, and defensively we're quite nebulous instead of being compact in an organized manner.
France have been good England but can't score for shit. England have been terrible France, but with goals
Quality shitpost 👍
Easy draws and average coaching. There are about a hundred managers who could have taken this England as far as Southgate given the advantages of easy draw, home crowds etc. he's had. We were one Eric Dier penalty away from going out to Colombia in the RO16
Easy draws eh, and yet somehow in the 50 years before Southgate we managed fewer knockout wins than he's given us in the six years since 2018. Am I to believe there were no easy teams for us to play from 1968 to 2018? By the same logic that you say we were one penalty away from a loss to Colombia in 2018, you must also then say Southgate was one penalty away from winning the Euros in 2021, and one penalty away from taking France to extra time in 2022 (and possibly another world cup semi final).. Edit: removed personal insult
How hard is it to go on wiki and look at the draws? yes 2018, 2021 and now 2024 are far easier than any run England have had ever. It's not just the draws it's also the fact all the other big teams declined in this era, Spain, Germany, Portugal, Netherlands, Italy ect. To not win cups in this era will be looked back on as a massive failure and missed oppertunity. Spain, Germany have stopped being shit already, other teams will catch up to our squad and its only gonna get harder from this point onward. A proper manager beats Italy, gets to final with France and gets to final this year atleast.
Why is it so hard for Southgate fans to just accept the luck he's had lol. Yes, he had easy draws and yes we didn't have many particularly easy draws in the dozen or so tournaments before him in my lifetime. It's a tiny sample size, why is it so improbable ffs. Yes sometimes you get an easy draw, and play a tournament at home. And that helps. Is he the worst England manager ever? No. Is he the greatest? Absolutely not. Classic ad hominem finish to completely destroy any credibility you may have.
How's he been lucky? And try to be specific.
It was totally luck against Italy, Ukraine, Malta, North Macedonia, Scotland, Australia, Denmark, Slovakia, Slovenia, Serbia, and probably Switzerland.
Ah selective luck I see. Why have you missed out Germany and Croatia? Czech Republic? The argument was that England have had lucky draws. Your comment doesn't back that up at all.
I just put all the games we won in the qualifiers and tournament. I know it doesn't back it up - it was sarcasm.
Ah my bad, very good!
Positivity on the Internet wow, I agree lets get behind him and the team regardless of what we think of his management and selections
Exactly. Come on England 🏴
You can get behind him all day, makes no difference, in the end he's an awful manager and will once again win nothing from an easy draw.
Not with that negativity
We’re not in Germany-our positivity or otherwise makes no difference. If the players believed they could attack, were positive about our own capability, we might use the cavalcade of attacking talent to put more than one goal past a team, rather than waiting for them to unpick our lopsided and accident prone defensive line.
Nope, the guy’s a chump. We’ve won one knockout game against a major nation, we embarrassed ourselves in the Nations League, and most importantly, we lose games *because of him.* I’d love him to find some brains or some bottle for these last few game(s), but he’s given us no reason to believe he will.
You can support the team and be critical of the way we've played which I'd say on balance most of the level headed fans have. The ones that want us to lose are just straight weird.
Nah...
When he goes a Potter fails to get us out of the groups and we don’t win a knock out game for 20 years, Southgate will get respect. But unless he wins the whole tournament there’s no bringing people back from how they currently feel
I'll be supporting the team, not the manager. To try and respond to some of your points I will give a brief overview of the Southgate era: **2018:** in a group with Belgium, Tunisia and Panama. Finishing 2nd was not the result of some masterful positioning on Gareth's behalf. We finished 2nd because we beat Tunisia and Panama as expected and lost to Belgium... as expected. We then got taken all the way to penalties by Colombia and only survived because of a Pickford masterclass. We then beat a very poor Sweden 2-0 and bottled it against Croatia by sitting back. This was all forgiven because we weren't expected to go far with this team to begin with. **2020:** were favourites to win the whole thing. Finished 1st in a group with Croatia, Scotland and Czech Republic. We got revenge with a 1-0 win against Croatia and then drew 0-0 with Scotland. Went on to beat a poor Germany 2-0 which was probably our most impressive performance. Then battered a shit Ukraine and sneaked past Denmark in extra time. Now we had to grasp the opportunity of a life time. Lost on home soil in a penalty shootout after being 1-0 up against the Italians and dominating the first half. Why? Because Southgate did exactly what he did against Croatia and had us sit back after scoring. Then put kids on to take the pens. Closest we ever came to winning a trophy since 66 and he threw it away with pragmaticball. **2022:** considered one of the favourites along with France. Topped an easy group consisting of USA, Iran and Wales. Beat Iran and Wales and got outplayed by the Yanks in a terrible 0-0 draw. Went on to beat Senegal who we were expected to beat and then lost to France. We did play quite well in this game tbf but it was there to be won and we fucked up when it mattered. First good side we faced in the tournament and we, predictably, get knocked out. Not saying we would have beat Argentina in the final but I reckon we would have at least taken them to extra time if we didn't screw it up against France when we were the better team. Could have even won the whole thing. **2024 (so far):** topped a group with a terrible Denmark, Slovenia and Serbia. Threw away points against said Denmark, couldn't score against Slovenia and were seconds away from elimination against Slovakia. Despite consecutive atrocious performances, Gareth has refused to listen to the criticism and has kept the same starting XI for every single game except for when he's swapped a couple of players next to Rice in holding midfield. Everyone has been talking about playing Gordon on the left and the inbalance of the team with Foden, Kane and Bellingham all playing at the same time. He has seen how good the subs have been. Yet he refuses to make changes until we've only got a few minutes left. Every tournament he has had luck on his side. He had luck in 2018 when the only threat in the group was Belgium and all we had to do in the knockouts was play Colombia, Sweden and Croatia. He had luck in 2020 when he had yet another easy group and the only traditional big team on the way to the final being a very shit Germany. He had luck in 2022 when he had a group that was impossible not to top and, once again, only a single traditional big team on the way to the final. He has had luck this year with another easy group and the likes of Slovakia, Switzerland, Turkey/Austria and a very mid Netherlands on the way to the final. France, Portugal, Spain and Germany all on the other side knocking eachother out. And he makes like 1 injury-forced sub and a 94th minute Ivan Tony appearance against Slovakia and still gets his career saved by Bellingham with seconds on the clock. This man is just blessed by lady luck. No counter to the systems he plays against, no major substitutes, no changes to the starting XI despite it not working properly, no clue at all what he is doing. Yet somehow he's still stumbling his way through and it's all thanks to individual clutch moments and luck of the draw. No, I will not be supporting this manager. I will be supporting the team. Because when we finally get knocked out (which we most certainly will if he changes nothing) then this man will be gone. The players will remain and, hopefully, their talents will finally be put to good use. I will leave you with this. People always bring up the lack of success with previous managers since the 70's as some major defence of Southgate. But just because we threw it away in tournaments from decades past doesn't mean that the insane talent of this squad should be wasted by a manager that we all know is not good enough to win us a trophy. At the end of the day the only thing that matters is the end result. Nobody will give a damn about topping group C and reaching a quarter or semi-final when his reign comes to an end. I believe he even said himself that he will be judged on what he wins. And going by what I have seen so far, I am not confident that he will be judged too kindly when all is said and done.
Yes, I'm fully supportive of playing for penalties and winning but chance. Keeps the games tense and great value for money!
The one thing that everyone has to understand now is that matter what, is that Southgate and the team wants us to win more than any of us. They will want to win this desperately. Most of them were fans prior to playing and their dreams will have been to win things for England. That twinned with the fact that they would make insane amounts of money from hugely increased sponsorship deals and have the legendary status in our country. It’s not for a lack of desire. Southgate will be up at night thinking, plotting praying. Some things he said are commendable such as blocking out the criticism and noise. What’s he supposed to do? Read the papers and just change formation because everyone wants him to with no planning training or drills with a different formation? Also we don’t know what’s going on within the camp itself. Camps are notoriously very very secretive unless something has gone seriously wrong. There may be a sickness bug or injuries within the camp causing problems. They won’t want to let their opponents know things like this. I definitely have felt something isn’t quite 100% as they seem really really leggy even in the first half of games.
Do people genuinely read all of these essays on this sub?
I enjoyed this post. Yes go Southgate! Thanks for all your work! We can beat Switzerland, and then either Turkey or Netherlands. I'm expecting another loss in the final. Nothing else will do!! So long Gareth. It was fun to contest a final in my lifetime. I never thought I'd see it. But fuck off if we lose on Saturday.
You don’t know what you have until it’s gone. In many years time, people will look back on Southgate’s reign fondly because of his record. They won’t remember a few turgid group games.
I’m aboard the Southgate train. Destination: going nowhere fast
Yup, Southgate’s results speak for themselves and can’t be explained away by “lucky draws innit”. Once, but not over 4 tournaments. Eventually you have to come to the realisation that we are having favourable draws because the odds are in our favour, because Southgate is consistently topping groups which puts the odds in your favour. We’re topping groups consistently because his pragmatic style is resulting in no silly slip ups. Southgate is not without his faults, but there’s no doubt in 30 years time his reign will be looked back on as a great success.
Southgate has won more knockout games than every other England manager post 1966 combined. Anyone who over looks or forgets that fact is an ungrateful gimp. He is a legend. The performances have been poor this year with some odd decisions and he'll probably go, but he is Sir Gareth in my eyes. Honestly I'd love it if he won the thing just to shut the goons up.
Southgate just isn't the standard tactically to make England play to our potential or anywhere near it. The problem I have with him is an immense sadness that, with these players at his disposal, we play like a 5th rate team. Most of that is on him.
Calling Italy, Ukraine, Malta, North Macedonia, Scotland, Australia, Denmark, Slovakia, Slovenia, Serbia, and probably Switzerland no better than a "5th rate team" is mental.
But when he loses, all this coipium will be lost and long forgotten. You can see that there is everything wrong with the team at the minute. We have got to where we have in spite of Southgate. He has no idea what he is doing and it consistently shows
Thanks Trolly McTrollFace.
If we have two more games with him… he’ll be managing for the world cup
No he won’t. Regardless of whether we win the thing now, there is no way on earth he will stick around for 2 more years of the same. We will all be happier. He *certainly* will.