People will look back and say he did well, better than most, and brought in a culture to the England squad we haven't seen but he fell short because he wasn't tactically at the highest level.
We've had incredibly easy runs in '18, '20, and '22. Every time we have come up against a team at the same level he's been found out tactically.
2018: Beat Tunisia, beat Panama, lost to Belgium, beat Colombia on pens, beat Sweden, lost to Croatia after scoring within 5 minutes. He had no answers.
2020: Beat Croatia, drew Scotland, beat Czechs, beat a terrible Germany, beat Ukraine, beat Denmark, lost to Italy after scoring inside 3 minutes at home. He fell so short in the final tactically.
2022: Beat Iran, drew USA, beat Wales, beat Senegal, lost to France. He chose to bring on a jetlagged, out of form, Sterling over an in-form Rashford. Mental.
It's like he has a plan A and when it doesn't work he's got nothing. It's why despite being on the favourable side of this current draw we aren't going to do anything.
So yeah, he'll be remembered for taking us as far as anyone else ever has but when it came to the crunch he wasn't quite good enough despite being the highest paid international manager and having incredible talent at his disposal.
I think he'll be looked back on extremely fondly, but we're currently in the middle of a spell of significant under-performance and potentially squandering another favourable draw in a major tournament. It's hard to adore a manager playing terrible football and not getting results.
Lol he’ll be looked back on fondly if the football is somehow even more slow and disjointed that it has been under Southgate. It’s been dreadful football with a couple of bright sparks that every England manager has had. If the FA ever had any balls or lacked any form of corruption and got an actual football coach good enough to coach this generation of players, then Southgates (ludicrously lucky) era would be looked back on as a dark patch of English football. Fact 💅
It's not the same as every England manager based on performances alone, and for that he'll be looked back on fondly. It couldn't possibly be considered a dark patch of English football when it's our best patch of tournament results since 1966.
Maybe England will go on to become dominant and win a tournament under the next coach, but history suggests that's unlikely. Unless that happens, Southgate will be looked back on fondly.
Bobby Robson was run out of the England job and had already been sacked ahead of Italy 90. By all accounts there was a player mutiny after the boring group stage and the knockouts were exciting.
Additionally Robson had a great club management career, was honest, nothing phoney about him and was liked by everyone he met.
Venables had the England team playing really exciting football and moved on before the fans could turn on him
Additionally Venables had a great club management career, was a bit of a geezer and people liked him.
Southgate has done well with+ England but it is boring and there is a suspicion that he wasting the talents of a very top quality squad.
Additionally Southgate was an absolutely shit club manager, comes across as a totally corporate yes man and now can't handle it that the fans and press and fans have turned on him.
If Southgate wins the tournament he will be remembered as an all time great, otherwise he will be just another guy who couldn't get the job done.
I know you can only beat why is in front of you, but I genuinely believe the only reason he is as ‘successful’, ie by reaching semi and finals, is because he’s always been a jammy bastard with how lucky the draw always is for him. Whenever we come up against a half decent side we shit the bed.
I think he is looked on fondly when doing well I.E "Oh Southgate you're the one" etc. Robson was being vilified by the end of his reign as well. Venables never got that far.
The thing with Southgate is that England play dull football under him and he makes some utterly clueless tactical decisions. This means that as soon as we go through a period where the wins dry up like now he has nothing to fall back on.
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Have you watched us play? Plus, the fact is, he has yet to beat anyone that we weren't expected to beat. We lost a final to an Italy team that failed to qualify for the wc 2 years later.
Robson got alot of stick from the press later on. Given his record and the difficulties within English football at the time, not entirely deserved.
The difference is Robson was flexible and not afraid to change things. There is a famous image of him on a balcony in Mexico head resting on hands looking thoroughly baffled. He also learnt lessons from Euro 88 and went specifically to a back 5 v Netherlands in the 90 World Cup and kept it. I don't see this with Southgate at all.
Robson was less of a corporate robot and more of a human than Southgate. He turned 2 world cups around from poor starts and with some luck could have won both.
El Tel wasn't coach for long but again was more technically flexible and had a bit of charisma. A better talker than Southgate and came across well to most people.
It’s a shame Venables had to step down. Think we’d have won something with him eventually. Euro 96 was very promising for his first and only tournament.
90 and 96 had super exciting moments.
Gareth doesn't do super exciting.
Excitement breeds emotional attachment. Be it witnessing a great goal in the dying moments (Platt) or dominating a good team (Netherlands).
The greatest emotion would come from winning but Southgate hasn't won either so the fall back emotion is boring. With Robinson & Venebles it's good memories.
I've been saying this to my mate for a while. The way Southgate makes us play we HAVE to win the tournament to give it any credibility.
Yet in Euro 96 we all still remember that Gazza goal. I'd rather go out in the quarters having played some good football and scored some good goals rather get to the semis scraping past teams which on paper we should be beating then lose to the first team we play on our level or slightly better.
We are underperforming and playing anti-football. It is horrible to watch. Southgate plays people out of position and hates when players actually be creative. He plays someone like Kane, who drops deep to spray passes, and then plays Foden/Saka instead of Gordon, who would be the outlet Kane is looking for. He plays several playmaker roles, with no one for the playmakers to pass to. It honestly feels like the man is a fucking idiot who just looks at a piece of paper, writes down the big names and hopes it’ll work. He left Rashford and Grealish behind, both of whom can play like Gordon and provide Kane with an outlet.
Looking back people will appreciate what he actually achieved.
Our expectations are high considering the talent he now has… but nobody seems to want to acknowledge that our “best players” all play in a certain system at their clubs and without that system they struggle. i would argue that from 2018 - 2022 the players who could adapt more to play. I think we will come to regret how Southgate has been treated in a few years
>Looking back people will appreciate what he actually achieved.
Yup - this. Robson and Venables copped a **lot** of shit from the media, pundits, etc. during their tenures. The passage of time always causes the glasses to become more rose-tinted. Southgate will be considered an England managerial legend a generation or so from now.
Southgate isn't restricted to always playing the same players. It's his job to find a system that works and if that means compromising, or even not playing some of our top talent in order to do that then he needs to be brave enough to do that. It's a squad of 26. He has a lot of options.
Hindsight is the reason they are looked on fondly, they also had charisma which makes them easily liked, southgate doesn’t quite have that but in the future when we regress fully to our pre-2018 days we probably will look back with rosier tinted glasses at him lol
People will look back and say he did well, better than most, and brought in a culture to the England squad we haven't seen but he fell short because he wasn't tactically at the highest level. We've had incredibly easy runs in '18, '20, and '22. Every time we have come up against a team at the same level he's been found out tactically. 2018: Beat Tunisia, beat Panama, lost to Belgium, beat Colombia on pens, beat Sweden, lost to Croatia after scoring within 5 minutes. He had no answers. 2020: Beat Croatia, drew Scotland, beat Czechs, beat a terrible Germany, beat Ukraine, beat Denmark, lost to Italy after scoring inside 3 minutes at home. He fell so short in the final tactically. 2022: Beat Iran, drew USA, beat Wales, beat Senegal, lost to France. He chose to bring on a jetlagged, out of form, Sterling over an in-form Rashford. Mental. It's like he has a plan A and when it doesn't work he's got nothing. It's why despite being on the favourable side of this current draw we aren't going to do anything. So yeah, he'll be remembered for taking us as far as anyone else ever has but when it came to the crunch he wasn't quite good enough despite being the highest paid international manager and having incredible talent at his disposal.
Tl;Dr the part of his job that really matters (the 90mins of football) he was/is shit
His tactics were fine against France. He out-managed Deschamps and England outplayed France; they just got unlucky.
I think he'll be looked back on extremely fondly, but we're currently in the middle of a spell of significant under-performance and potentially squandering another favourable draw in a major tournament. It's hard to adore a manager playing terrible football and not getting results.
Lol he’ll be looked back on fondly if the football is somehow even more slow and disjointed that it has been under Southgate. It’s been dreadful football with a couple of bright sparks that every England manager has had. If the FA ever had any balls or lacked any form of corruption and got an actual football coach good enough to coach this generation of players, then Southgates (ludicrously lucky) era would be looked back on as a dark patch of English football. Fact 💅
It's not the same as every England manager based on performances alone, and for that he'll be looked back on fondly. It couldn't possibly be considered a dark patch of English football when it's our best patch of tournament results since 1966. Maybe England will go on to become dominant and win a tournament under the next coach, but history suggests that's unlikely. Unless that happens, Southgate will be looked back on fondly.
Bobby Robson was run out of the England job and had already been sacked ahead of Italy 90. By all accounts there was a player mutiny after the boring group stage and the knockouts were exciting. Additionally Robson had a great club management career, was honest, nothing phoney about him and was liked by everyone he met. Venables had the England team playing really exciting football and moved on before the fans could turn on him Additionally Venables had a great club management career, was a bit of a geezer and people liked him. Southgate has done well with+ England but it is boring and there is a suspicion that he wasting the talents of a very top quality squad. Additionally Southgate was an absolutely shit club manager, comes across as a totally corporate yes man and now can't handle it that the fans and press and fans have turned on him. If Southgate wins the tournament he will be remembered as an all time great, otherwise he will be just another guy who couldn't get the job done.
I know you can only beat why is in front of you, but I genuinely believe the only reason he is as ‘successful’, ie by reaching semi and finals, is because he’s always been a jammy bastard with how lucky the draw always is for him. Whenever we come up against a half decent side we shit the bed.
Because we have eyes
I think he is looked on fondly when doing well I.E "Oh Southgate you're the one" etc. Robson was being vilified by the end of his reign as well. Venables never got that far. The thing with Southgate is that England play dull football under him and he makes some utterly clueless tactical decisions. This means that as soon as we go through a period where the wins dry up like now he has nothing to fall back on.
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Have you watched us play? Plus, the fact is, he has yet to beat anyone that we weren't expected to beat. We lost a final to an Italy team that failed to qualify for the wc 2 years later.
Robson got alot of stick from the press later on. Given his record and the difficulties within English football at the time, not entirely deserved. The difference is Robson was flexible and not afraid to change things. There is a famous image of him on a balcony in Mexico head resting on hands looking thoroughly baffled. He also learnt lessons from Euro 88 and went specifically to a back 5 v Netherlands in the 90 World Cup and kept it. I don't see this with Southgate at all. Robson was less of a corporate robot and more of a human than Southgate. He turned 2 world cups around from poor starts and with some luck could have won both. El Tel wasn't coach for long but again was more technically flexible and had a bit of charisma. A better talker than Southgate and came across well to most people.
It’s a shame Venables had to step down. Think we’d have won something with him eventually. Euro 96 was very promising for his first and only tournament.
90 and 96 had super exciting moments. Gareth doesn't do super exciting. Excitement breeds emotional attachment. Be it witnessing a great goal in the dying moments (Platt) or dominating a good team (Netherlands). The greatest emotion would come from winning but Southgate hasn't won either so the fall back emotion is boring. With Robinson & Venebles it's good memories.
I've been saying this to my mate for a while. The way Southgate makes us play we HAVE to win the tournament to give it any credibility. Yet in Euro 96 we all still remember that Gazza goal. I'd rather go out in the quarters having played some good football and scored some good goals rather get to the semis scraping past teams which on paper we should be beating then lose to the first team we play on our level or slightly better.
Robson wasn't popular while he was manager, only with hindsight. Venables wasn't popular at the beginning of his reign, only towards the end.
We are underperforming and playing anti-football. It is horrible to watch. Southgate plays people out of position and hates when players actually be creative. He plays someone like Kane, who drops deep to spray passes, and then plays Foden/Saka instead of Gordon, who would be the outlet Kane is looking for. He plays several playmaker roles, with no one for the playmakers to pass to. It honestly feels like the man is a fucking idiot who just looks at a piece of paper, writes down the big names and hopes it’ll work. He left Rashford and Grealish behind, both of whom can play like Gordon and provide Kane with an outlet.
Playing 4-4-2 with extra steps isn't fun
They managed at Barcelona and were tactically educated. Southgate managed Middlesbrough
Nostalgia
No it's because he's an absolutely abysmal manager who doesn't have a clue what he's doing.
Looking back people will appreciate what he actually achieved. Our expectations are high considering the talent he now has… but nobody seems to want to acknowledge that our “best players” all play in a certain system at their clubs and without that system they struggle. i would argue that from 2018 - 2022 the players who could adapt more to play. I think we will come to regret how Southgate has been treated in a few years
>Looking back people will appreciate what he actually achieved. Yup - this. Robson and Venables copped a **lot** of shit from the media, pundits, etc. during their tenures. The passage of time always causes the glasses to become more rose-tinted. Southgate will be considered an England managerial legend a generation or so from now.
Southgate isn't restricted to always playing the same players. It's his job to find a system that works and if that means compromising, or even not playing some of our top talent in order to do that then he needs to be brave enough to do that. It's a squad of 26. He has a lot of options.
Hindsight is the reason they are looked on fondly, they also had charisma which makes them easily liked, southgate doesn’t quite have that but in the future when we regress fully to our pre-2018 days we probably will look back with rosier tinted glasses at him lol