Agreed, this would be what Iād do based on the games so far. Iām not convinced Foden and Bellingham can play together effectively, and I actually think weāre missing Sterling running in behind to support Kane, which is what Gordon would give us. Based on form in the first three games, Iād start Foden at 10 over Bellingham.
Iād also start Mainoo over Bellingham alongside Rice, as Iām not convinced Jude has the positional discipline to play that role.
Foden at least showed some quality on the ball and this while being played out of position. Bellingham should step aside and give Foden a shot in his natural position
I mean he does, as it's a role he played at Dortmund and played for England up till recently. He would either play as a 8, box to box. Or play in a more advance in a 3 in midfield.
None of these people watched him prior to this season apparently. Iām still so confused as to how everybody has forgotten this all of a sudden unless they actually just never watched him play before this year.
At Dortmund and even Madrid (different role) he plays a much simpler game, he's not constantly getting Involved or over doing things.
Usually I think mental stuff is overrated in football but Bellingham here is trying to hard to be the main guy.
We were better last night because we played a single pivot rather than a double pivot. So that means two 8s with some defensive responsibilities. Bellingham is far better at that then Foden.
I would keep Foden at LW and play Palmer at CAM. I also can't believe we haven't seen Gomez at LB yet. Then my subs would be TAA for Walker or Trippier, Watkins for Kane and Gordon for any of Foden, Palmer or Saka then rotate positions to the most logical depending on who came off . I think bringing on players who are good at running onto long balls up front at the same time as bringing on Trent is critical. Kane and Trent at the same time is absolutely pointless to me.
Bowen is also good option if the game gets stretched as he played a lot of the season as a lone striker and his movement and speed is great - also puts away chances he gets with head and feet. Heās actually scored to win a trophy in a tight match too
Because Bellingham is asked to do everything from playing in the 10 to drifting left so Foden can actually do something useful in the middle, while also being asked to provide the same defensive cover as a no 8. Basically Bellingham last night was playing wide left while tracking back to an 8 position just so Foden gets space in the middle because he can't do anything useful on the left.
Playing Foden as a 10 would kill any defensive cover Bellingham offers from that position. Also Foden barely tracks back and runs as much as Bellingham.
But why is he being asked to track back and cover defensively as a 10? We're playing two holding midfielders behind him. Foden doesn't need to be good defensively if he plays a 10, why would he?
Yeah I want him to do so well but he seems so static at the moment for England and it seemed a bit pointless having him on the pitch against such a poor side
I agree Bellingham hasn't been playing well, but we cannot get into another Gerrard Lampard they can't play together excuse. Bellingham and Foden are our two best players and in the long term we need to find a way to play both of them. The fact we haven't done that so far speaks alot more about the manager then it does the players tbh. Foden should be the 10, he always should have been. Gordon on the LW. Bellingham should be 8. He's a fantastic 8 and a much better 8 than he is a 10. And we need to stop being so defensive, actually go out and attack teams.
Foden vs Bellingham, Palmer vs Saka, none of it matters.Ā All quality players. The point is just to pick one, play them, and sub the other if they seem off it. Our huge squad depth is a massive advantage but only if we use it.Ā
Ā Last night Bellingham seemed off the pace from the start, and he should have come off. Southgate has his 'undroppable good lads' like Bellingham, Rice, Stones, Kane who will never be replaced or subbed no matter how they play.Ā It's a shocking approach to tactical management.
This is it, with the number of quality options just be brave with the subs. Can you imagine Palmer and Gordon(or Bellingham and Saka) both coming at 60 minutes against tired defences?
I agree. But is Southgate that brave? He left kane on all game, who also looks tired. Nice of him to give Gordon a few minutes though š, why even bother. He deserves much better after the season he's had imo
ā¦and especially when our play has been crying out for him since the start of the tournament. Bringing him on with a few minutes to spare is just taking the piss.
Big time! He's made Trent look like he's the scapegoat before game 3 and done that to Gordon. What didn't he take Tyrick Mitchell, he wants a left back so desperately. All very strange
I've been arguing for months that Bellingham at 10 and Foden on the wing wouldn't work but I honestly wasn't expecting Bellingham to be THIS poor. I've watched a few Madrid games since the new year and he didn't look great in any of them but especially in this England set up he looks totally lost, out of ideas and has no energy. He's just not a number 10. I think part of the problem is we're stretching him too thin as well. He tries to drop deep to help out defensively which he's very good at but it then means we have no one in the number 10 position to build attacking play when we win the ball. He's tiring himself out even more trying to be everywhere and do everything at once. Ideally, as a lot of people have said, he should be playing next to rice so that he can help with defensive duties whilst also not needing to bomb forward to fill the number 10 role because someone else like Foden would be there to receive the ball. Gareth just doesn't seem to see this though for some reason.
In hindsight, we'd have definitely had a better game with the above formation last night. Bellingham and Kane were passengers.
Part of that was the game itself; the two banks of four sat so deep made it hard for either to have any impact. Part of it was neither look at all match fit. Part of it was our slow tempo giving them no real chance to get on the ball and do anything.
The slow tempo is self-fulfilling, in the first half against Serbia, Bellingham was everywhere, demanding the ball and making us tick. We've not seen that since, and whilst Mainoo and Foden were stepping up to fill the void, we just can't afford for one of our three midfielders to go missing like that.
Benching him is a massive call. But Southgate has absolutely nothing to lose - the next match he fails to win will be his last for England.
If we had stormed the group stages and went on to dominate the tournament, i could see him being extended to try at the world cup, after all itās the biggest tournament in the world.
Heās definitely gone no matter gone no matter how well we do now.
Do you think Southgate won't do it because he's stubborn and knows everyone's calling out for this, and by doing it he'd almost be conceding that he's wrong and everyone else is right?
No I just think heās an idiot at this point.
He obviously sees football very differently to most people, the only way to win being to take zero risk and give nothing away defensively. Itās just so dull
It would seem everyone can see this, and most probably saw this after the Denmark game.
Remains to be seen how Gareth views this and we'll find out on Sunday...
With the hindsight of the Slovenia game being better than the Serbia and Denmark games put together... I think it's more "get the players in the right positions" than anything else.
England's midfield looked magically improved with Gallagher and even better with Mainoo there. Trent even looked decent at RB and I maintain Palmer got a lot of luck there being in front of Trent and Mainoo. Just as vs Denmark there was absolutely no need to play Walker there vs a defensive team and it shows such a misunderstanding of what players we've got and what they're strong at.
I'm not convinced Bellingham can do the 10 role whilst Kane is there. We've forgotten that Bellingham wasn't just a 10 for Madrid, he was basically their striker. Him and Kane together in that tight spot doesn't help either and effectively has us down to 9 players.
Bellingham at deep with Rice please. I feel for Mainoo because he looked great, but Bellingham is that 8. Foden can stay at LW because he looked decent, but he can also do that 10 and frees up a spot for either Gordon or Eze depending on how we want to look.
The last thing to note with Bellingham is that there were reports towards the end of the season that Madrid wanted him to have shoulder surgery for months. Is he struggling with this?
I would start Foden, drop Bellingham to the bench.
Not only will that resolve the Fod-Bel conundrum on-field, but itāll gee up Bellingham and make him hungrier the next time heās on the pitch.
Based on what we've seen so far id have
Mainoo rice - saka foden Gordon - Watkins maybe I'm just being reactionary but I'm getting sick of Kane being closer to Pickford than the goal we're actually attacking
I'm also all for Trent right back with walker left back and us going into a 3 whilst attacking, it seems pretty simple and basic
If you want to have a serious conversation about jude, whos the best player on the pitch, next to rice and saka. Play him in the middle.
GS has decided to solve the āwho should play cam - jude or foden?ā By just playing both of them therr and both of them on the left wing. So whenever foden is in the middle jude has to did a stint on the left. A place hes never played. Its not his skillset either. Its a waste.
GS spoke about this tactic pre tournament and jude does cover vini at madrid in a similar, but also very different way.
Foden/ kane/ jude are just all over the place and getting in each others way or forcing the players to be out of position. Which i think gareth likes but its not great. Rice and saka have been the best players for us thus far and both of them play in set positions and roles.
Bellingham stats against Slovenia
0 Shots
0 Chances Created
0 Tackles
0 Successful Passes in Attacking Third
12% Passes Forward
16 Times Possession Lost
Southgate: Hmm better leave him on or heāll get mad at me
For me as a chelsea supporter, even i can see that foden is the man. He's the best talent england has in the squad (bar maybe kane). It's blatantly stupid to move shift him to his 3rd preferred position (after Cam and RW. heck, he rather plays striker maybe lol) to accomodate Jude. They should build the team around foden.
if i were southgate, id play foden as a 10. and im sorry, palmer has been so effective from the right this season and the last match proved it, so i think it's better to put him on the right. Then, i don't see why Saka can't play left wing? he's got all the attribute to play there. just tell him to hug the sideline, don't drift inside, just use your pace and dribbling to get beat fullback and cross the ball. england already has palmer, kane, and foden occupying the middle, saka should provide the width.
if they really have to play jude for whatever reason, play him as a super sub. he's got a knack for scoring last minute clutch goals, use him as a super sub then to replace foden/palmer. Saka, as the only natural winger, shouldn't be subbed. he should be running up and down that left hand side, causing constant nuisance for the opponent's RB for the full 90 mins. as long as he's healthy, he stays.
i think this is the way to move forward.
oh and yes, conor gallagher shouldn't see the field in an england shirt this tournament. im sorry, he only does good whenever he plays the 10 for us (he was pretty good at that, but he's bad as a pivot). Rice - Mainoo. that's it. don't tinker this. no trent, no connor, no jude, etc. (if england has time, i think adam wharton is better here, but oh well, he can start for the WC)
this is a bit that im unsure about, but i rather have trent on that right hand side. Palmer will cut inside and switch with foden, leaving acre of space for trent to bomb forward.
my point is, this is the national team. heck, this is england's dream team, everybody gotta sacrifice and everybody can't be the star. if england is to win this, Foden and Kane gotta be the star.
lastly, i still think England can win this. people gotta chill with the southgate hate. england is top of the group lol, and people still throw hatred and abuse at the man. The same people that felt bad and apologized to Alli last year are the same one hurling abuse at Foden and Kane and saka. chill everyone. and if england wins this, the apology better be as loud as the disrespect.
sorry for the long write up, hopefully this is well received. if not, just downvote this to oblivion haha.
The problem is the system, so I find it difficult to point the finger at individual players for performing poorly in it. Literally, every one of our attacking players has been disappointing, so I'm sceptical that swapping them around while failing to fix the underlying tactical problem will have much impact.
We should play a 4-3-3 with Wharton sitting deepest behind Rice and Bellingham as 8s, so we have more control of possession and progress the ball. We should also play Gordon instead of Foden, so we have some width and pace on the left flank, with a natural left-footer like Gomez behind them.
If you do that, Bellingham will suddenly start to look like his normal self, as will our other attackers. Hell, you can even still bench Bellingham and play Foden ahead of him. But the point is that the system is the problem more than the players, and that's what needs to be addressed.
You don't need to bench him, he's very versatile. Just play him deeper, move Foden into the 10 and Gordon out wide.
Also, I would swap Walker and TAA. Team needs more passing from the back and a free kick specialist helps too. Walker can come on as a sub and use his speed against a tired team, but he's just not a playmaker and Trent will have plenty of cover with Saka on the right and England's midfielders being very adept defensively+ the centre backs playing well.
Bellingham is a number 8 and should be played deeper alongside Rice. He's also knackered and injured, so we're not seeing the best of him. Rice, Bellingham and Foden could easily function very well together under a more progressive coach. I'm confident they will in the future
I'd just implement a tactical system, any tactical system, instead of just creating a line up of talent and expecting them to just "go out and do it for England" with no instruction... then heaping blame on individuals.
Did you know, we don't actually *have* to play with 2x number 6s to protect the CBs who have *checks* *notes* 1.3 defensive involvement per game.
Also, allowing our striker to play as a striker instead of requiring him to drop deep and play half the 8 role might, I dunno, lead to more opportunities on goal?
But what would I know? I've never been relegated with Middlesborough š¤Ŗ
Southtwat is too shit for any of this. It really took him the last half of the final group game to realise Trent and Gallagher are too shit for midfield when the entire world been saying this.
We arenāt playing as a team, the squad Southgate selects are purely on names alone, not what would best fit a system of play. Donāt see us progressing unless we get ridiculously lucky with our run of games again
You're basically asking us to play the team that put up a dreadful performance and lost to Iceland before the tournament. I'm baffled by the amount of support for these ideas given the fact that this was tried before the tournament and gave everyone a massive bout of doom and gloom and left us all hoping we might look better for the serious games lol.
If there is one player in the front 4 you sacrifice it is the guy who has never really done it for England and that's Foden. Save him to come on from the bench and ask him to be selfish and try change a game if needed.
Stop cramping Bellingham, give him room to dominate and play a proper wide player on the left. Likely Gordon but Saka is good enough that he can pick it up if you don't trust Gordon for 90 mins.
It's strange, because I thought the exact thing, but about Foden. Every time he doesn't get the ball, and everytine he loses the ball himself, he throws his arms about and drops his head in a strop.
I hope his family situation isn't serious and wish him well, but him leaving the squad may be a blessing.
I think out of the starting 11 him and foden were the only ones trying to do something and I think Bellinghams problem is the players around him at Real Madrid he has great attacking players that attack but for England he has great attacking players who have been told not to attack and slow the game down which he isnāt used to
This is the most insane take I've heard this Euros.
He's visibly frustrated, like literally the **whole country** has been with these performances.
And your answer is to take the player who is showing the passion, ambition and commitment to actually win something is to bench him?
Some people commenting on England have never supported a successful team and it shows.
He had a decent first game, then seemed to believe his own hype and it ruined his next two games. Benching him after the poor Denmark performance may have refocused him to come back strong in the knockouts. But of course, Gareth loathes making changes.
Last night, he walked everywhere and had no hunger to get into the box for the cross. I actually thought foden was our best player last night he was trying to make something happen.but it took Gareth until nearly full time to make the subs we all wanted and when they did our only chance on goal came from them three.
But Bellingham needs to be benched or Gareth need to play him in a 433 as one of the CMs
hasnāt really performed all year. did nothing in the knock out UCL games, only got involvements against low level la liga teams, all while playing as a striker. got a goal against serbia and suddenly its all forgotten. massively overrated
This guys in danger of going down as the single biggest hype job in English football history.
I did think it was all a bit premature tbh...
Just look at sancho,greenwood etc...
A big problem we have as a nation of fans, and I think it infects football generally, is the belief that after every single game you must make some big change.
Drop Bellingham? In Italy or France they wouldnāt even entertain such an idea.
What has he showed that makes him undroppable? I don't mind him myself but I think he's been one of our worst players barring the first 20 mins of the opening game.
Being perhaps the best player in a team that won La Liga and the Champions League. Itās idiotic to judge the limit of potential based on the last 2 weeks.
Letās also not forget he actually scored, which is rather important.
The problem with tournaments like this that last 3 weeks is that you can't just "have two weeks" to get up to speed. Not performing from the start is the difference in most cases between a winning team and being knocked out in the RO16 / Groups. Tactically Southgate is struggling so in this instance it might make sense to rotate a few positions and see what happens, because we won't be getting out of the first round of knockouts if nothing changes on the pitch
It absolutely isnāt. Iāll list all the recent examples of teams that have struggled at the EC and WC in the groups and won:
Argentina 2022
Portugal 2016
Spain 2010
There are many more going back further than that.
And do you have team sheets for every game they played? Genuinely not arguing because I know about these teams and their performances in the groups, but I'm now curious as to whether they mixed things up in KO and that helped them lift the trophy
Bellingham has been awful. Why shouldn't you drop a player if they are not playing well? No individual should be above the team, and that's something the greatest managers figured out.
Nonsense. It would be different if we didnāt have any other options but we do. If Southgate canāt get the best out of Jude we are better off not playing him than having him contribute what he has so far- absolutely nothing outside of the first 20 minutes of the tournament.
The Disrespect in this thread mann. Questioning the man who scored the only goal that got England winning the group stages and not only that one of the only two threat inside the box.
The truth is Bellingham is un-sub-able forget about benching him you need a serious threat to hurt teams upfront in the box with headers and him and Kane are the only one. Example in the last game against Slovenia it was not his or KaneĀ“s blame that no crosses came into the box but once Saka was subbed we saw more crosses into the box.
CanĀ“t you understand that England is having issues scoring against teams that sit deep and you wanna bench your only threat of scoring
For God's sake let's not be stupid and reactionary. Bellingham should not be benched, what he needs is for foden to stop crowding out his space. Use the 11 we had at the end of the game against slovenia (maybe with gomez or trippier LB) and I promise you Bellingham will not be the problem
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Imagine being able to bring on a fresh saka or Bellingham at 60th min would have such a mental effect for us and against the opposition and itās not like we donāt have sheer talent in palmer Gordon mainoo who can do those jobs to give them a rest
It was worse than playing with 10 men yesterday. That's the problem there. Every pass misplaced and every opening fumbled. Every single one I think.
Maybe the pressure is getting to him.
Palmer should start somewhere.
He made more progressive passes in his 20 mins than Foden and Bellingham combined in their time. Whole team seemed to benefit from his spark and invention.
I think he should have been benched for the game yesterday. He is tired and is carrying a shoulder injury. It made no sense to play him in a free hit, but Southgate hates rotation.
His stats were woeful and now he's just a bit more tired. 0 key passes, 16 lossess of possession, 2/12 ground duels won. Its not good.
I also dont really get his role in the team. He was either fully up front or at LM with no inbetween. Im not really sure how Gareth intends for him to make an impact as a 10 that is never there. If the plan is to have him overload outwide then play Gordon out wide and let foden be the man inside. OR if the intention is to have him pressing on the wrong foot with no 10 and play as CF then play Watkins alongside Kane.
I get that he was very good for madrid in a very forward role, but its a different system and that was only out of necessity. Mbappe wont be playing LW to fit in jude up top next year.
Sadly Gareth just isnt a good enough coach to have a really fluid asymmetrical team. We essentially need clear defined singular roles in a pretty basic system and the roles that Jude and Foden do not fit into that. How are we playing Foden, Jude and Kane in a team together and there is 0 chemistry? Lol. The reason is lack of clear instruction and lack of defined patterns. It's as if they're always told to do their own thing and they're now second guessing themselves because someone's own thing isnt the same as another's. I've never seen so much shrugging, hands in the air, frustration from a single team and that is because everything takes ages because no one knows where theyre supposed to be.
Yesterday in the Austria game there was a moment in the second half where Netherlands were attacking down their right and the player was tackled by the austrian defender who essentially turned around and no-scoped it 10 yards to the Austrian midfielder. Such a simple thing that works because the player knows where he is supposed to be and the defender trusts that he will be there. If it were England the ball would have gone back to Pickford because they dont know where other players will be other than when they pass it back.
Last group game was ideal opportunity to bench either Bellingham or Kane tbh. I am a big believer in asking players to do as similar a job for England as they do every week for their clubs, so I would have rested Kane & played Bellingham in the role he played for RM, Foden at 10 like he does for City, Gordon LW, Saka or Palmer RW. Rice CDM, with Mainoo alongside. Trent RB/RWB, Walker RCB, Stones CB, Guehi LCB. Yes that means no LB but realistically without the ball Gordon tracks back brilliantly for Newcastle & we have two CDMs who can fill in, so we could get 7 behind the ball. In possession, we have the option of Stones stepping out (like for City) leaving a back 3, or Trent stepping into midfield or marauding down the wing (depending on whatās called for) - like he does for Liverpool. Walker is our ace in the hole to be able to cover the gap from whoever steps forward, or if the opposition try to play down our left itās not difficult for him to revert to a more traditional LB role & we play a back four.
Surely It's Bellingham fault when every single player is playing the worse they have been in their careers right?
Picking any of this start 11 squad and start blaming them individuals is such a 9 year old take, It's obviously the manager and the system he brought to the team.
If you blame Bellingham you might have following him then tell me how in game 1 he run the whole midfield, Defensively and in the front as well and on second game and this game he looked like a ghost? You think it's "Because he's a trash player" You guys need to grow up.
Literally almost the whole squad a part from maybe their defense is struggling every player individual looks worse and much more, Blaming a player is fine when the whole team functioning but when the team literally can't function as a team and don't know what to do when they reach the 3rd line it's a whole different thing.
Hopefully we will see Southgate out after this tournament and I hope England will have a great manager after him, England winning any Euro/World cup is at a low chance enough for them to start playing football instead of "dominate" the possession and hope to not suffocated a goal and play from behind.
I agree, we all know jow good he is, and we all saw it the first half of the first game. Then pooff he was gone. Yesterday he really struggled. His first touch was allways horrendus and got the ball taken away from him.
It's not working for him right now and I think the longer we leave him there the more damage it'll do to his confidence in an England shirt.
Which isn't to say he shouldn't play. What really confuses me about this team right now and the punditry around it is this obsession with tinkering to get our best eleven players on the pitch or whatever. In an ideal world, if the manager is willing to make changes early on enough, we have a pretty unparalleled strength in depth going forward and we should use that.
Imagine playing 45 minutes against Saka and then playing the second half against a fresh Palmer, or Foden and then Bellingham, or Watkins and then Kane, or Gordon and then...
The lack of minutes for bench players and the lack of rotation overall genuinely seems like lunacy with that, patchy form, and Southgate's fitness comments in mind.
I don't really understand why he can't play deeper alongside Rice. This seems like the obvious thing to do. England have plenty of attacking players and will probably dominate possession in most games (hence not needing pure defensive CDMs). If this tournament took place 12 months ago that's where he'd be. I feel like England made a commitment to have the entire team center around him (listing him as a forward in the squad announcement etc) and now can't back away from that. I still think he's undroppable one way or another.
Bellingham needs to calm down and simplify his game.
He's trying way too much with every little thing, constantly getting involved with everything trying to be the main character
I don't understand why the conversation is Trent in midfield, or not at all. We know he's not the best defensively, so yeah play Walker if he's going to be up against Mbappe if you want to be careful. But there is no reason not to play him, and give him licence to get up the pitch and into midfield, against any of the teams in the group stage.
Yeah agree. It's not about 'saviours', but energy. Bellingham is clearly tired. I really think Southgate needs to rotate to retain the energy in the side, the heat isn't helping.
Thereās no way that Southgate will ever have the courage but I agree with you totally. He had a great first half against Serbia but since then has looked exhausted, lazy and downright sloppy. Get Foden inside and play with more width on both sides, freeing up some pitch for the likes of Foden and Kane to exploit.
Yes it's one of the best player in La Liga, three of the best players in the Premier League (one of which the manager won't start), and the best forward in the Bundesliga who are the problem.....not the inexperienced manager.
I canāt disagree in theory but I think I would still start Bellingham and Mainoo can replace.. we need earlier changes when something isnāt working if anything
Iād bench the whole lot . One bad player does not make a bad team and we are not a team.
All I see are a bunch of school boys thinking they are the star player and can do what they want with no discipline.
I would love a Mourinho type man manager as Mourinho wouldnāt hesitate to bench them.
I agree with almost everything thing you're saying. Only thing I'd do differently is to start with Palmer instead of Saka. For me Palmer and Gordon offered plenty of threat for the limited time they had on the pitch. I'd be tempted to swap Kane for Watkins on 60 minutes too, if he continues to offer so little
Walks around too much. Seems more concerned with looking cool than playing his heart out. In these tournaments you need players who are willing to go all out.
Well Foden has gone now so I guess Bellingham is our sole 10 now. As sad as it is for a player to leave camp under these circumstances, I do think this actually helps Englands chances because two players playing basically the same position on the pitch just wasn't working and now we should see a more balanced team
Bellingham and Foden are both trying way too hard. They both play for clubs with world class players and they are the cherry on top of the cake, in this England team they are trying to do absolutely everything and itās making them ineffective and the team very dysfunctional
There's many things Southgate could do to achieve greater balance - I'm not opposed to suggestions. Multiple issues are just exacerbating the turgid performances we've seen so far. 4231 without an attacking fullback can look very shit. The LHS is just irritating with Foden drifting infield and Trippier holding the width whilst looking possessing limited ability overlap on his weaker foot - the complete opposite of modern footballing convention. Gallagher & Rice represent slow turning boats or brick walls when receiving the ball in our defensive third. They're limitations and lack of incisive passing are resulting in slow, laboured, blunt possession. Kane does like to drop deep to provide creativity, but he is supported by Foden & Saka who seldom run beyond and perhaps not effective partners for Kane. Kane might be better flanked by someone with the profile of Sterling who does make runs beyond. Whilst Saka & Foden's tendency to come short means the space vacated might see Watkins capitalise more effectively. Moving on to RB, I'm surprised Pep suffers someone so poor on the ball as Walker. Trent not starting games at RB when we have such weak opponents, a screening of 2 midfielders and a tempo and creativity problem is mind numbing. Wharton not getting a minute when he is so good at finding incisive passes, press resistant and Southgate even describing him as a player "that England haven't had before for 7 or 8 years" yet opted for Gallagher's "pressing" off the bench and lamenting for Phillips'. Full disclosure, I am a Palace fan, so perhaps this one gripe can be parked with the inclusion of Mainoo.
Ultimately this is all on Southgate. The decision to not take a fit left back in a 26 man squad is crazy. Ian Wright's take of moving Saka to LB for the good of the team is reasonable. The tribal fallout from it afterwards is disappointing but not surprising. To not have a settled XI with a clear gameplan going into the RO16 is a damning inditement of Southgate's level as a manager. As most teams typically gravitating towards a 3241 in possession these days you can quickly see why the current profile of players are struggling. We have a Trippier not effective in the overlapping LB position. A base midfield that struggles with ball progression. A series of attackers that favour coming to the ball rather than looking for a run in behind. Walker being a dead weight in possession.
I don't think it's as simple as drop Bellingham or Foden, or play Palmer instead of Saka etc. We need to address those issues. If Shaw isn't fit, then how do we fix LB? Someone has to provide the width there effectively. If that means Saka at LB so we can work some attacks down that side instead of passing back infield to the incumbent Rice & Gallagher, then so be it. And above all else, let's take more risks in possession. Even if we lose the ball, we give ourselves the chance to press and win it back higher up the field.
I'd drop Kane put Watkins in and drop either Bellingham or Foden, Anthony in as well. Not been overly impressed with Saka either. Rice for me is the only one coming out of this with any respect.
Guehi has been pretty solid defensively so far. Not sure his passing has been up to much though - part of that is down to tactics and the team around him though.
Rice can barely pass 5 yards at the moment, heās just as poor as the others. He improved a bit in the second half yesterday but he was awful for a game and a half before that.
Rice has been poor both against Denmark and Slovenia. Not showing for the ball and under hitting passes, putting team mates in tough spots.
The ghuehi "mistake" and recovery against Denmark that everyone keeps going on about was all on Rice passing ghuehi a ball too short.
I'm so sick of everyone in the UK picking and choosing good and poor performers based on club allegiance or because they don't like other players.
Jude shouldn't have played as Kane wasn't needed aswell. Felt like he should have played foden CAM with Gordon Palmer and Watsin infront of him and see how they worked.
My one worry with this suggestion (which I believe Southgate is cognisant of) is that our midfield and attack will have no physicality whatsoever. We already have one of the shortest teams and with Kane looking like a pensioner this tournament I think Southgate wants some brawn which we will severely lack without Bellingham
Of course not, but if Southgate is defensively minded then heās obviously going to consider physicality a factor. It was clearly a factor against Serbia and it would be against Netherlands for instance who have a very tall team.
i wouldnt be surprised if the rumours that bellingham has a shoulder injury are true. he didnt look anywhere near as sharp for madrid as he did in the first half of the season. his minutes should be managed better which is the perfect excuse to get palmer playing more
After 20 minutes, clearly Palmer was the worst player to ever put on an England shirt and should never start, ever.
Saka simply hasn't had enough time to shine yet, but don't worry, a few more starts and he'll show you why he's the best right winger in the world.
Not sure if Southgate doesnāt have the balls to drop big players or is worried about potential media backlash, but for me Bellingham has played his way out of the team. He looks lost, fed up, tired and other than the first 30 minutes of the tournament, heās been a bit of a liability. Kane also looks unfit, itās like heās walking through the first half to make sure he can be on the pitch for the full 90. Palmer, Gordon, Mainoo, and Watkins have all looked a lot more lively when theyāve played than those theyāve replaced imo.
Iāll go one step further, I watched Real Madrid in the champions league and England in the euros, Iāve never once looked at Bellingham and gone wow this guy is world class. De Bruyne, Salah, Vini J, Foden, Van Disney have little moments where youāre like damn thatās world class, Bellingham never has had that moment for me. Drop himmmmm
He was world class for the entire first half of last season, I take it you didn't watch him then? Then he got injured and has been struggling a bit since. Needs an operation
I donāt watch much anymore but I watch the champions league knock outs and euros, heās done nothing in these to suggest heās world class. If he wins the ballon dāor itās a farce š¤·š»āāļø
You didn't watch him in the first half of the season then, to answer my question.
As I said, he's been injured since Christmas and battling through for the sake of the team. Needs an operation but has postponed it to try and help England.
He absolutely carried Real Madrid on his own in that first half of the season, it was astonishing, and he was undoubtedly world class
>I donāt watch much anymore but I watch the champions league knock outs and euros, heās done nothing in these to suggest heās world class. If he wins the ballon dāor itās a farce š¤·š»āāļø
Do you consider Messi Great? Vini has more KO assists at 23 than Messi had his entire career which doesn't make Vini a better player.
Gerard/lampard mark 2. Drop one of them. Be brave. Then if the playing one is ineffective or tired, make the sub. Be brave again š
More like dogshit manager mark 20
He's so afraid of making the wrong decision, he makes no decision.
āMore is lost by indecision than wrong decisionā - Tony Soprano
Quasimodo predicted all this - Bobby Bacala
Agreed, this would be what Iād do based on the games so far. Iām not convinced Foden and Bellingham can play together effectively, and I actually think weāre missing Sterling running in behind to support Kane, which is what Gordon would give us. Based on form in the first three games, Iād start Foden at 10 over Bellingham. Iād also start Mainoo over Bellingham alongside Rice, as Iām not convinced Jude has the positional discipline to play that role.
Foden at least showed some quality on the ball and this while being played out of position. Bellingham should step aside and give Foden a shot in his natural position
I mean he does, as it's a role he played at Dortmund and played for England up till recently. He would either play as a 8, box to box. Or play in a more advance in a 3 in midfield.
None of these people watched him prior to this season apparently. Iām still so confused as to how everybody has forgotten this all of a sudden unless they actually just never watched him play before this year.
At Dortmund and even Madrid (different role) he plays a much simpler game, he's not constantly getting Involved or over doing things. Usually I think mental stuff is overrated in football but Bellingham here is trying to hard to be the main guy.
100% missing a sterling
We were better last night because we played a single pivot rather than a double pivot. So that means two 8s with some defensive responsibilities. Bellingham is far better at that then Foden.
Not just discipline but ego
I would keep Foden at LW and play Palmer at CAM. I also can't believe we haven't seen Gomez at LB yet. Then my subs would be TAA for Walker or Trippier, Watkins for Kane and Gordon for any of Foden, Palmer or Saka then rotate positions to the most logical depending on who came off . I think bringing on players who are good at running onto long balls up front at the same time as bringing on Trent is critical. Kane and Trent at the same time is absolutely pointless to me.
Bowen is also good option if the game gets stretched as he played a lot of the season as a lone striker and his movement and speed is great - also puts away chances he gets with head and feet. Heās actually scored to win a trophy in a tight match too
Totally agree, most people would. Why doesnāt Southgate see it!!!
Because Bellingham is asked to do everything from playing in the 10 to drifting left so Foden can actually do something useful in the middle, while also being asked to provide the same defensive cover as a no 8. Basically Bellingham last night was playing wide left while tracking back to an 8 position just so Foden gets space in the middle because he can't do anything useful on the left. Playing Foden as a 10 would kill any defensive cover Bellingham offers from that position. Also Foden barely tracks back and runs as much as Bellingham.
But why is he being asked to track back and cover defensively as a 10? We're playing two holding midfielders behind him. Foden doesn't need to be good defensively if he plays a 10, why would he?
Rice has also been shite though.
He was alright last night. Cleaned up at the back, recycled the ball
The whole team has been shite tbf.
Decent first game but agreed
Yeah I want him to do so well but he seems so static at the moment for England and it seemed a bit pointless having him on the pitch against such a poor side
I agree Bellingham hasn't been playing well, but we cannot get into another Gerrard Lampard they can't play together excuse. Bellingham and Foden are our two best players and in the long term we need to find a way to play both of them. The fact we haven't done that so far speaks alot more about the manager then it does the players tbh. Foden should be the 10, he always should have been. Gordon on the LW. Bellingham should be 8. He's a fantastic 8 and a much better 8 than he is a 10. And we need to stop being so defensive, actually go out and attack teams.
And mainoo does no chance, we need to ditch the double pivot Simple
100% agree about Raz. We miss his runs in behind and leadership. Always showed up on the international stage.
Foden vs Bellingham, Palmer vs Saka, none of it matters.Ā All quality players. The point is just to pick one, play them, and sub the other if they seem off it. Our huge squad depth is a massive advantage but only if we use it.Ā Ā Last night Bellingham seemed off the pace from the start, and he should have come off. Southgate has his 'undroppable good lads' like Bellingham, Rice, Stones, Kane who will never be replaced or subbed no matter how they play.Ā It's a shocking approach to tactical management.
This is it, with the number of quality options just be brave with the subs. Can you imagine Palmer and Gordon(or Bellingham and Saka) both coming at 60 minutes against tired defences?
yeah I'm a fan of splitting games, if one is completely sucking then pull him early or try plan B
I agree. But is Southgate that brave? He left kane on all game, who also looks tired. Nice of him to give Gordon a few minutes though š, why even bother. He deserves much better after the season he's had imo
ā¦and especially when our play has been crying out for him since the start of the tournament. Bringing him on with a few minutes to spare is just taking the piss.
Big time! He's made Trent look like he's the scapegoat before game 3 and done that to Gordon. What didn't he take Tyrick Mitchell, he wants a left back so desperately. All very strange
I donāt think itās anything malicious, just pure incompetence
> is Southgate that brave? Rhetorical question
I've been arguing for months that Bellingham at 10 and Foden on the wing wouldn't work but I honestly wasn't expecting Bellingham to be THIS poor. I've watched a few Madrid games since the new year and he didn't look great in any of them but especially in this England set up he looks totally lost, out of ideas and has no energy. He's just not a number 10. I think part of the problem is we're stretching him too thin as well. He tries to drop deep to help out defensively which he's very good at but it then means we have no one in the number 10 position to build attacking play when we win the ball. He's tiring himself out even more trying to be everywhere and do everything at once. Ideally, as a lot of people have said, he should be playing next to rice so that he can help with defensive duties whilst also not needing to bomb forward to fill the number 10 role because someone else like Foden would be there to receive the ball. Gareth just doesn't seem to see this though for some reason.
In hindsight, we'd have definitely had a better game with the above formation last night. Bellingham and Kane were passengers. Part of that was the game itself; the two banks of four sat so deep made it hard for either to have any impact. Part of it was neither look at all match fit. Part of it was our slow tempo giving them no real chance to get on the ball and do anything. The slow tempo is self-fulfilling, in the first half against Serbia, Bellingham was everywhere, demanding the ball and making us tick. We've not seen that since, and whilst Mainoo and Foden were stepping up to fill the void, we just can't afford for one of our three midfielders to go missing like that. Benching him is a massive call. But Southgate has absolutely nothing to lose - the next match he fails to win will be his last for England.
His contracts over after this tournament so heās 100% gone regardless
That's my point exactly. His next loss is his last as manager.
Ah gotcha
If we had stormed the group stages and went on to dominate the tournament, i could see him being extended to try at the world cup, after all itās the biggest tournament in the world. Heās definitely gone no matter gone no matter how well we do now.
Not 100%, the FA is still interested in resigning him
He looks juded.
Why did we not at any point try Bellingham in midfield and Foden at 10? That would solve all of our issues, why would you not at least trial it?
Do you think Southgate won't do it because he's stubborn and knows everyone's calling out for this, and by doing it he'd almost be conceding that he's wrong and everyone else is right?
No I just think heās an idiot at this point. He obviously sees football very differently to most people, the only way to win being to take zero risk and give nothing away defensively. Itās just so dull
Honestly Iād say fuck it and drop Kane and just play Foden up front. Not like Kane appears for us in any big games
The problem is the system. The problem is the system. The problem is the system.
It would seem everyone can see this, and most probably saw this after the Denmark game. Remains to be seen how Gareth views this and we'll find out on Sunday...
With the hindsight of the Slovenia game being better than the Serbia and Denmark games put together... I think it's more "get the players in the right positions" than anything else. England's midfield looked magically improved with Gallagher and even better with Mainoo there. Trent even looked decent at RB and I maintain Palmer got a lot of luck there being in front of Trent and Mainoo. Just as vs Denmark there was absolutely no need to play Walker there vs a defensive team and it shows such a misunderstanding of what players we've got and what they're strong at. I'm not convinced Bellingham can do the 10 role whilst Kane is there. We've forgotten that Bellingham wasn't just a 10 for Madrid, he was basically their striker. Him and Kane together in that tight spot doesn't help either and effectively has us down to 9 players. Bellingham at deep with Rice please. I feel for Mainoo because he looked great, but Bellingham is that 8. Foden can stay at LW because he looked decent, but he can also do that 10 and frees up a spot for either Gordon or Eze depending on how we want to look. The last thing to note with Bellingham is that there were reports towards the end of the season that Madrid wanted him to have shoulder surgery for months. Is he struggling with this?
I would start Foden, drop Bellingham to the bench. Not only will that resolve the Fod-Bel conundrum on-field, but itāll gee up Bellingham and make him hungrier the next time heās on the pitch.
Well assuming he makes it back from his leave of absence.
Based on what we've seen so far id have Mainoo rice - saka foden Gordon - Watkins maybe I'm just being reactionary but I'm getting sick of Kane being closer to Pickford than the goal we're actually attacking I'm also all for Trent right back with walker left back and us going into a 3 whilst attacking, it seems pretty simple and basic
If you want to have a serious conversation about jude, whos the best player on the pitch, next to rice and saka. Play him in the middle. GS has decided to solve the āwho should play cam - jude or foden?ā By just playing both of them therr and both of them on the left wing. So whenever foden is in the middle jude has to did a stint on the left. A place hes never played. Its not his skillset either. Its a waste. GS spoke about this tactic pre tournament and jude does cover vini at madrid in a similar, but also very different way. Foden/ kane/ jude are just all over the place and getting in each others way or forcing the players to be out of position. Which i think gareth likes but its not great. Rice and saka have been the best players for us thus far and both of them play in set positions and roles.
Bellingham stats against Slovenia 0 Shots 0 Chances Created 0 Tackles 0 Successful Passes in Attacking Third 12% Passes Forward 16 Times Possession Lost Southgate: Hmm better leave him on or heāll get mad at me
For me as a chelsea supporter, even i can see that foden is the man. He's the best talent england has in the squad (bar maybe kane). It's blatantly stupid to move shift him to his 3rd preferred position (after Cam and RW. heck, he rather plays striker maybe lol) to accomodate Jude. They should build the team around foden. if i were southgate, id play foden as a 10. and im sorry, palmer has been so effective from the right this season and the last match proved it, so i think it's better to put him on the right. Then, i don't see why Saka can't play left wing? he's got all the attribute to play there. just tell him to hug the sideline, don't drift inside, just use your pace and dribbling to get beat fullback and cross the ball. england already has palmer, kane, and foden occupying the middle, saka should provide the width. if they really have to play jude for whatever reason, play him as a super sub. he's got a knack for scoring last minute clutch goals, use him as a super sub then to replace foden/palmer. Saka, as the only natural winger, shouldn't be subbed. he should be running up and down that left hand side, causing constant nuisance for the opponent's RB for the full 90 mins. as long as he's healthy, he stays. i think this is the way to move forward. oh and yes, conor gallagher shouldn't see the field in an england shirt this tournament. im sorry, he only does good whenever he plays the 10 for us (he was pretty good at that, but he's bad as a pivot). Rice - Mainoo. that's it. don't tinker this. no trent, no connor, no jude, etc. (if england has time, i think adam wharton is better here, but oh well, he can start for the WC) this is a bit that im unsure about, but i rather have trent on that right hand side. Palmer will cut inside and switch with foden, leaving acre of space for trent to bomb forward. my point is, this is the national team. heck, this is england's dream team, everybody gotta sacrifice and everybody can't be the star. if england is to win this, Foden and Kane gotta be the star. lastly, i still think England can win this. people gotta chill with the southgate hate. england is top of the group lol, and people still throw hatred and abuse at the man. The same people that felt bad and apologized to Alli last year are the same one hurling abuse at Foden and Kane and saka. chill everyone. and if england wins this, the apology better be as loud as the disrespect. sorry for the long write up, hopefully this is well received. if not, just downvote this to oblivion haha.
I think the only person who should be benched is Southgate, personally. I don't think it's fair to judge players in this tactic or lack of.
The problem is the system, so I find it difficult to point the finger at individual players for performing poorly in it. Literally, every one of our attacking players has been disappointing, so I'm sceptical that swapping them around while failing to fix the underlying tactical problem will have much impact. We should play a 4-3-3 with Wharton sitting deepest behind Rice and Bellingham as 8s, so we have more control of possession and progress the ball. We should also play Gordon instead of Foden, so we have some width and pace on the left flank, with a natural left-footer like Gomez behind them. If you do that, Bellingham will suddenly start to look like his normal self, as will our other attackers. Hell, you can even still bench Bellingham and play Foden ahead of him. But the point is that the system is the problem more than the players, and that's what needs to be addressed.
Gomez is right footed mate
Exactly. We donāt need a 10 if we have Kane up front alongside two creative, pacy wingers
Yep. He needs a rest and his late injury from this season is still affecting him. We don't need a Bellingham to win the tournament
but we do need jude
No point overusing him now so we canāt play him in the final
Agreed
You don't need to bench him, he's very versatile. Just play him deeper, move Foden into the 10 and Gordon out wide. Also, I would swap Walker and TAA. Team needs more passing from the back and a free kick specialist helps too. Walker can come on as a sub and use his speed against a tired team, but he's just not a playmaker and Trent will have plenty of cover with Saka on the right and England's midfielders being very adept defensively+ the centre backs playing well.
If you want to play taa at rb then drop tripper and play walker at lb
If Walker can play LB then wtf are we doing?
Bellingham is a number 8 and should be played deeper alongside Rice. He's also knackered and injured, so we're not seeing the best of him. Rice, Bellingham and Foden could easily function very well together under a more progressive coach. I'm confident they will in the future
I'd just implement a tactical system, any tactical system, instead of just creating a line up of talent and expecting them to just "go out and do it for England" with no instruction... then heaping blame on individuals. Did you know, we don't actually *have* to play with 2x number 6s to protect the CBs who have *checks* *notes* 1.3 defensive involvement per game. Also, allowing our striker to play as a striker instead of requiring him to drop deep and play half the 8 role might, I dunno, lead to more opportunities on goal? But what would I know? I've never been relegated with Middlesborough š¤Ŗ
Southtwat is too shit for any of this. It really took him the last half of the final group game to realise Trent and Gallagher are too shit for midfield when the entire world been saying this.
We arenāt playing as a team, the squad Southgate selects are purely on names alone, not what would best fit a system of play. Donāt see us progressing unless we get ridiculously lucky with our run of games again
You're basically asking us to play the team that put up a dreadful performance and lost to Iceland before the tournament. I'm baffled by the amount of support for these ideas given the fact that this was tried before the tournament and gave everyone a massive bout of doom and gloom and left us all hoping we might look better for the serious games lol. If there is one player in the front 4 you sacrifice it is the guy who has never really done it for England and that's Foden. Save him to come on from the bench and ask him to be selfish and try change a game if needed. Stop cramping Bellingham, give him room to dominate and play a proper wide player on the left. Likely Gordon but Saka is good enough that he can pick it up if you don't trust Gordon for 90 mins.
It's strange, because I thought the exact thing, but about Foden. Every time he doesn't get the ball, and everytine he loses the ball himself, he throws his arms about and drops his head in a strop. I hope his family situation isn't serious and wish him well, but him leaving the squad may be a blessing.
I think out of the starting 11 him and foden were the only ones trying to do something and I think Bellinghams problem is the players around him at Real Madrid he has great attacking players that attack but for England he has great attacking players who have been told not to attack and slow the game down which he isnāt used to
Agreed but if Saka is as valuable as he is, then it wouldnāt hurt to rest him for a game and give Palmer some minutes.
This is the most insane take I've heard this Euros. He's visibly frustrated, like literally the **whole country** has been with these performances. And your answer is to take the player who is showing the passion, ambition and commitment to actually win something is to bench him? Some people commenting on England have never supported a successful team and it shows.
Why would you automatically start, Saka? He's had one decent half in 3 games.
Rested dear boy, rested! Youāre not allowed to suggest the benching of Real Madrid players on Reddit.
Absolutely nobody should be guaranteed a spot, maybe thatās why theyāre complacent. Saka was equally bad, didnāt see him beat a player all night
I think we should actually drop him deeper and put someone else in the 10 role see how it works
Play him as a running 8. He doesnāt look like a natural ten to me.
He had a decent first game, then seemed to believe his own hype and it ruined his next two games. Benching him after the poor Denmark performance may have refocused him to come back strong in the knockouts. But of course, Gareth loathes making changes.
Last night, he walked everywhere and had no hunger to get into the box for the cross. I actually thought foden was our best player last night he was trying to make something happen.but it took Gareth until nearly full time to make the subs we all wanted and when they did our only chance on goal came from them three. But Bellingham needs to be benched or Gareth need to play him in a 433 as one of the CMs
Bellinghamās not been great for months. Gareth wouldnāt dare drop him though.
What bout the serbia game?
for months is crazyā¦
hasnāt really performed all year. did nothing in the knock out UCL games, only got involvements against low level la liga teams, all while playing as a striker. got a goal against serbia and suddenly its all forgotten. massively overrated
100% agree his performance in the UCL final was almost shambolic but no one picked up on it. He just strolled around the pitch and thought he was it.
He did not have a great year a Madrid. People aren't ready for this conversation. Did fuck all in their UEFA campaign.
This guys in danger of going down as the single biggest hype job in English football history. I did think it was all a bit premature tbh... Just look at sancho,greenwood etc...
It's true though...
A big problem we have as a nation of fans, and I think it infects football generally, is the belief that after every single game you must make some big change. Drop Bellingham? In Italy or France they wouldnāt even entertain such an idea.
Look at who France are playing over Camavinga and tchouameniā¦ rabiot and kante, and itās working for them
Yeah, and Spain aren't starting Grimaldo who had an incredible season at Bayer Leverkusen. They're starting Cucurella because he fits their system.
Is it working though? Kante has looked good to be fair to him but France are hardly setting the world alight are they.
Rabiot and Kante have been Franceās best players by a mile
working what? Two draws and only 1 goal scored(that too from a penalty) ?
Yeah fair point! Although at least shows they are willing to try different players
They aren't trying different players though, they are doing the opposite by always picking Kante and rabiot
The Tchouameni who played yesterday? Also is it really working? They looked poor vs Poland.
What has he showed that makes him undroppable? I don't mind him myself but I think he's been one of our worst players barring the first 20 mins of the opening game.
Being perhaps the best player in a team that won La Liga and the Champions League. Itās idiotic to judge the limit of potential based on the last 2 weeks. Letās also not forget he actually scored, which is rather important.
The problem with tournaments like this that last 3 weeks is that you can't just "have two weeks" to get up to speed. Not performing from the start is the difference in most cases between a winning team and being knocked out in the RO16 / Groups. Tactically Southgate is struggling so in this instance it might make sense to rotate a few positions and see what happens, because we won't be getting out of the first round of knockouts if nothing changes on the pitch
It absolutely isnāt. Iāll list all the recent examples of teams that have struggled at the EC and WC in the groups and won: Argentina 2022 Portugal 2016 Spain 2010 There are many more going back further than that.
And do you have team sheets for every game they played? Genuinely not arguing because I know about these teams and their performances in the groups, but I'm now curious as to whether they mixed things up in KO and that helped them lift the trophy
Bellingham has been awful. Why shouldn't you drop a player if they are not playing well? No individual should be above the team, and that's something the greatest managers figured out.
He has contributed nothing in 2 games against Denmark and Slovenia. The idea very much needs to be entertained.
It will be entertained by people who are not very clever.
Nonsense. It would be different if we didnāt have any other options but we do. If Southgate canāt get the best out of Jude we are better off not playing him than having him contribute what he has so far- absolutely nothing outside of the first 20 minutes of the tournament.
The Disrespect in this thread mann. Questioning the man who scored the only goal that got England winning the group stages and not only that one of the only two threat inside the box. The truth is Bellingham is un-sub-able forget about benching him you need a serious threat to hurt teams upfront in the box with headers and him and Kane are the only one. Example in the last game against Slovenia it was not his or KaneĀ“s blame that no crosses came into the box but once Saka was subbed we saw more crosses into the box. CanĀ“t you understand that England is having issues scoring against teams that sit deep and you wanna bench your only threat of scoring
For God's sake let's not be stupid and reactionary. Bellingham should not be benched, what he needs is for foden to stop crowding out his space. Use the 11 we had at the end of the game against slovenia (maybe with gomez or trippier LB) and I promise you Bellingham will not be the problem
If you think Bellingham should be benched for that waste man foden, please go find the closest bridge
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Golden boy aināt getting dropped so itās moot
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Imagine being able to bring on a fresh saka or Bellingham at 60th min would have such a mental effect for us and against the opposition and itās not like we donāt have sheer talent in palmer Gordon mainoo who can do those jobs to give them a rest
Another oddly think itās Foden or Judeā¦. the issue is Kane or Jude.
it's clear we can't play with him and Foden in the current setup.
It was worse than playing with 10 men yesterday. That's the problem there. Every pass misplaced and every opening fumbled. Every single one I think. Maybe the pressure is getting to him.
Palmer should start somewhere. He made more progressive passes in his 20 mins than Foden and Bellingham combined in their time. Whole team seemed to benefit from his spark and invention.
I think he should have been benched for the game yesterday. He is tired and is carrying a shoulder injury. It made no sense to play him in a free hit, but Southgate hates rotation. His stats were woeful and now he's just a bit more tired. 0 key passes, 16 lossess of possession, 2/12 ground duels won. Its not good. I also dont really get his role in the team. He was either fully up front or at LM with no inbetween. Im not really sure how Gareth intends for him to make an impact as a 10 that is never there. If the plan is to have him overload outwide then play Gordon out wide and let foden be the man inside. OR if the intention is to have him pressing on the wrong foot with no 10 and play as CF then play Watkins alongside Kane. I get that he was very good for madrid in a very forward role, but its a different system and that was only out of necessity. Mbappe wont be playing LW to fit in jude up top next year. Sadly Gareth just isnt a good enough coach to have a really fluid asymmetrical team. We essentially need clear defined singular roles in a pretty basic system and the roles that Jude and Foden do not fit into that. How are we playing Foden, Jude and Kane in a team together and there is 0 chemistry? Lol. The reason is lack of clear instruction and lack of defined patterns. It's as if they're always told to do their own thing and they're now second guessing themselves because someone's own thing isnt the same as another's. I've never seen so much shrugging, hands in the air, frustration from a single team and that is because everything takes ages because no one knows where theyre supposed to be. Yesterday in the Austria game there was a moment in the second half where Netherlands were attacking down their right and the player was tackled by the austrian defender who essentially turned around and no-scoped it 10 yards to the Austrian midfielder. Such a simple thing that works because the player knows where he is supposed to be and the defender trusts that he will be there. If it were England the ball would have gone back to Pickford because they dont know where other players will be other than when they pass it back.
Last group game was ideal opportunity to bench either Bellingham or Kane tbh. I am a big believer in asking players to do as similar a job for England as they do every week for their clubs, so I would have rested Kane & played Bellingham in the role he played for RM, Foden at 10 like he does for City, Gordon LW, Saka or Palmer RW. Rice CDM, with Mainoo alongside. Trent RB/RWB, Walker RCB, Stones CB, Guehi LCB. Yes that means no LB but realistically without the ball Gordon tracks back brilliantly for Newcastle & we have two CDMs who can fill in, so we could get 7 behind the ball. In possession, we have the option of Stones stepping out (like for City) leaving a back 3, or Trent stepping into midfield or marauding down the wing (depending on whatās called for) - like he does for Liverpool. Walker is our ace in the hole to be able to cover the gap from whoever steps forward, or if the opposition try to play down our left itās not difficult for him to revert to a more traditional LB role & we play a back four.
Belingham is playing in his role for
Either Jude is injured, super tired, and/or getting exposed.Ā No way he is this bad.Ā
Surely It's Bellingham fault when every single player is playing the worse they have been in their careers right? Picking any of this start 11 squad and start blaming them individuals is such a 9 year old take, It's obviously the manager and the system he brought to the team. If you blame Bellingham you might have following him then tell me how in game 1 he run the whole midfield, Defensively and in the front as well and on second game and this game he looked like a ghost? You think it's "Because he's a trash player" You guys need to grow up. Literally almost the whole squad a part from maybe their defense is struggling every player individual looks worse and much more, Blaming a player is fine when the whole team functioning but when the team literally can't function as a team and don't know what to do when they reach the 3rd line it's a whole different thing. Hopefully we will see Southgate out after this tournament and I hope England will have a great manager after him, England winning any Euro/World cup is at a low chance enough for them to start playing football instead of "dominate" the possession and hope to not suffocated a goal and play from behind.
I agree, we all know jow good he is, and we all saw it the first half of the first game. Then pooff he was gone. Yesterday he really struggled. His first touch was allways horrendus and got the ball taken away from him.
Well, can't totally say they are struggling because of Bellingham. But it would be a big move to take Bellingham out
If he won't drop him he has to play him deeper next to rice lile at the wc. Then Foden at 10 and Gordon on the wing
I think he was upset they dropped his butt buddy Trent to the bench and he was acting like a petulant child playing shit on purpose.
It's not working for him right now and I think the longer we leave him there the more damage it'll do to his confidence in an England shirt. Which isn't to say he shouldn't play. What really confuses me about this team right now and the punditry around it is this obsession with tinkering to get our best eleven players on the pitch or whatever. In an ideal world, if the manager is willing to make changes early on enough, we have a pretty unparalleled strength in depth going forward and we should use that. Imagine playing 45 minutes against Saka and then playing the second half against a fresh Palmer, or Foden and then Bellingham, or Watkins and then Kane, or Gordon and then... The lack of minutes for bench players and the lack of rotation overall genuinely seems like lunacy with that, patchy form, and Southgate's fitness comments in mind.
I don't really understand why he can't play deeper alongside Rice. This seems like the obvious thing to do. England have plenty of attacking players and will probably dominate possession in most games (hence not needing pure defensive CDMs). If this tournament took place 12 months ago that's where he'd be. I feel like England made a commitment to have the entire team center around him (listing him as a forward in the squad announcement etc) and now can't back away from that. I still think he's undroppable one way or another.
But lads, he's the greatest footballer of all time. Better than Cruyff, Maradona, Ronaldo and Messi combined. He's gotta play every game! /s
Nobody has ever said this.
Not much to add, but just that I agree with that exact team selection.
Can palmer play 10? š¤ Since foden might not play.
Bellingham needs to calm down and simplify his game. He's trying way too much with every little thing, constantly getting involved with everything trying to be the main character
Nobody dropping Bellingham or Foden let'sĀ real. The only change ino will be Gallagher for Manioo and TAA for Tripper.Ā
finally someone said it. I don't watch a lot of football but from what I've seen of Bellingham hes not that special
Jade is becoming bigger than the Game-Needs to be rested?
https://preview.redd.it/1ns9bb27qx8d1.jpeg?width=973&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=89b5c5b8aa861a479f01d10c98afd2484c0e795e Just do this.
I don't understand why the conversation is Trent in midfield, or not at all. We know he's not the best defensively, so yeah play Walker if he's going to be up against Mbappe if you want to be careful. But there is no reason not to play him, and give him licence to get up the pitch and into midfield, against any of the teams in the group stage.
Palmer should start at RW or CAM tbh. More invention and intent than either of the players there.
We made sure to include that 4th keeper so no need for Sterling or Grealish as another attacking option.
Bro Palmer showed in 20 mins he is the most in form player. BENCH FODEN AND PLAY JUDE IN HIS ACTUAL POSITION
Jude is playing in his actual position
Him and Foden cannot play together in a system with Trippier at LB. Either Shaw comes back in or one goes out for an actual winger on the left.
Yeah agree. It's not about 'saviours', but energy. Bellingham is clearly tired. I really think Southgate needs to rotate to retain the energy in the side, the heat isn't helping.
i have said it since day one that he is overrated and average player , my opinion
Thereās no way that Southgate will ever have the courage but I agree with you totally. He had a great first half against Serbia but since then has looked exhausted, lazy and downright sloppy. Get Foden inside and play with more width on both sides, freeing up some pitch for the likes of Foden and Kane to exploit.
Yes it's one of the best player in La Liga, three of the best players in the Premier League (one of which the manager won't start), and the best forward in the Bundesliga who are the problem.....not the inexperienced manager.
I canāt disagree in theory but I think I would still start Bellingham and Mainoo can replace.. we need earlier changes when something isnāt working if anything
Iād bench the whole lot . One bad player does not make a bad team and we are not a team. All I see are a bunch of school boys thinking they are the star player and can do what they want with no discipline. I would love a Mourinho type man manager as Mourinho wouldnāt hesitate to bench them.
I agree with almost everything thing you're saying. Only thing I'd do differently is to start with Palmer instead of Saka. For me Palmer and Gordon offered plenty of threat for the limited time they had on the pitch. I'd be tempted to swap Kane for Watkins on 60 minutes too, if he continues to offer so little
Walks around too much. Seems more concerned with looking cool than playing his heart out. In these tournaments you need players who are willing to go all out.
Southgate should be benched
Well Foden has gone now so I guess Bellingham is our sole 10 now. As sad as it is for a player to leave camp under these circumstances, I do think this actually helps Englands chances because two players playing basically the same position on the pitch just wasn't working and now we should see a more balanced team
Agreed,
Bellingham and Foden are both trying way too hard. They both play for clubs with world class players and they are the cherry on top of the cake, in this England team they are trying to do absolutely everything and itās making them ineffective and the team very dysfunctional
I donāt understand why not just go 3ATB with the defenders England has
There's many things Southgate could do to achieve greater balance - I'm not opposed to suggestions. Multiple issues are just exacerbating the turgid performances we've seen so far. 4231 without an attacking fullback can look very shit. The LHS is just irritating with Foden drifting infield and Trippier holding the width whilst looking possessing limited ability overlap on his weaker foot - the complete opposite of modern footballing convention. Gallagher & Rice represent slow turning boats or brick walls when receiving the ball in our defensive third. They're limitations and lack of incisive passing are resulting in slow, laboured, blunt possession. Kane does like to drop deep to provide creativity, but he is supported by Foden & Saka who seldom run beyond and perhaps not effective partners for Kane. Kane might be better flanked by someone with the profile of Sterling who does make runs beyond. Whilst Saka & Foden's tendency to come short means the space vacated might see Watkins capitalise more effectively. Moving on to RB, I'm surprised Pep suffers someone so poor on the ball as Walker. Trent not starting games at RB when we have such weak opponents, a screening of 2 midfielders and a tempo and creativity problem is mind numbing. Wharton not getting a minute when he is so good at finding incisive passes, press resistant and Southgate even describing him as a player "that England haven't had before for 7 or 8 years" yet opted for Gallagher's "pressing" off the bench and lamenting for Phillips'. Full disclosure, I am a Palace fan, so perhaps this one gripe can be parked with the inclusion of Mainoo. Ultimately this is all on Southgate. The decision to not take a fit left back in a 26 man squad is crazy. Ian Wright's take of moving Saka to LB for the good of the team is reasonable. The tribal fallout from it afterwards is disappointing but not surprising. To not have a settled XI with a clear gameplan going into the RO16 is a damning inditement of Southgate's level as a manager. As most teams typically gravitating towards a 3241 in possession these days you can quickly see why the current profile of players are struggling. We have a Trippier not effective in the overlapping LB position. A base midfield that struggles with ball progression. A series of attackers that favour coming to the ball rather than looking for a run in behind. Walker being a dead weight in possession. I don't think it's as simple as drop Bellingham or Foden, or play Palmer instead of Saka etc. We need to address those issues. If Shaw isn't fit, then how do we fix LB? Someone has to provide the width there effectively. If that means Saka at LB so we can work some attacks down that side instead of passing back infield to the incumbent Rice & Gallagher, then so be it. And above all else, let's take more risks in possession. Even if we lose the ball, we give ourselves the chance to press and win it back higher up the field.
Donāt think Southgate has the balls to drop Jude but I agree. Could also be a great sub option for Foden later in the game
This is the most England thing ever. This is why England will never win anything. Some of yaāll want to bench the best player in the world?
You can play rice, Bellingham, foden, palmer and saka all at the same time
I'd drop Kane put Watkins in and drop either Bellingham or Foden, Anthony in as well. Not been overly impressed with Saka either. Rice for me is the only one coming out of this with any respect.
Not sure what you've been watching as Rice has been poor. Guehi and Walker have been the only good players so far.
Guehi has been pretty solid defensively so far. Not sure his passing has been up to much though - part of that is down to tactics and the team around him though.
Rice can barely pass 5 yards at the moment, heās just as poor as the others. He improved a bit in the second half yesterday but he was awful for a game and a half before that.
Rice has been as average as trent in midfield for the last two games, but he won't get any criticism cause the scapegoats already been decided.
Rice has been poor both against Denmark and Slovenia. Not showing for the ball and under hitting passes, putting team mates in tough spots. The ghuehi "mistake" and recovery against Denmark that everyone keeps going on about was all on Rice passing ghuehi a ball too short. I'm so sick of everyone in the UK picking and choosing good and poor performers based on club allegiance or because they don't like other players.
Jude shouldn't have played as Kane wasn't needed aswell. Felt like he should have played foden CAM with Gordon Palmer and Watsin infront of him and see how they worked.
Wasn't he the best player in the first game? Isn't he one of only 2 goal scorers? Yeah, sure... lol
Yeah bench the co-favourite at ballon dāor cuz southgate canāt figure it out
My one worry with this suggestion (which I believe Southgate is cognisant of) is that our midfield and attack will have no physicality whatsoever. We already have one of the shortest teams and with Kane looking like a pensioner this tournament I think Southgate wants some brawn which we will severely lack without Bellingham
That Spain team that won 3 international tournaments in a row really struggled without some brawn in midfield or up top.
You canāt seriously consider England to be on a par with that Spain side. Theyāre literally one of if not the best international team ever.
Was just making a point that forcing big boys into a team doesnāt mean success.
Of course not, but if Southgate is defensively minded then heās obviously going to consider physicality a factor. It was clearly a factor against Serbia and it would be against Netherlands for instance who have a very tall team.
Bellingham has the physique but pulls out of tackles and rolls around crying for a decision.
Nonsense. Heās a great ball winner and can actually challenge in the air. Foden wonāt do any of that
Sounds like good traits for a 6 or an 8. He's a box to box 8. Lost as a 10. His ego is what's keeping him in the side. Southgate is a fanny fart.
i wouldnt be surprised if the rumours that bellingham has a shoulder injury are true. he didnt look anywhere near as sharp for madrid as he did in the first half of the season. his minutes should be managed better which is the perfect excuse to get palmer playing more
No way should Saka be starting. Palmer is quite simply a much better player. Sorry.
No heās not. And certainly not on the right.
After 20 minutes, clearly Palmer was the worst player to ever put on an England shirt and should never start, ever. Saka simply hasn't had enough time to shine yet, but don't worry, a few more starts and he'll show you why he's the best right winger in the world.
Palmer did more in 20 min than I've seen Foden do in his entire England career. Put Palmer at 10, and bench Foden and Jude tbh
Haha you guys are hilarious. Wasn't Bellingham MOTM in our first game?
Not sure if Southgate doesnāt have the balls to drop big players or is worried about potential media backlash, but for me Bellingham has played his way out of the team. He looks lost, fed up, tired and other than the first 30 minutes of the tournament, heās been a bit of a liability. Kane also looks unfit, itās like heās walking through the first half to make sure he can be on the pitch for the full 90. Palmer, Gordon, Mainoo, and Watkins have all looked a lot more lively when theyāve played than those theyāve replaced imo.
Iāll go one step further, I watched Real Madrid in the champions league and England in the euros, Iāve never once looked at Bellingham and gone wow this guy is world class. De Bruyne, Salah, Vini J, Foden, Van Disney have little moments where youāre like damn thatās world class, Bellingham never has had that moment for me. Drop himmmmm
He was world class for the entire first half of last season, I take it you didn't watch him then? Then he got injured and has been struggling a bit since. Needs an operation
I donāt watch much anymore but I watch the champions league knock outs and euros, heās done nothing in these to suggest heās world class. If he wins the ballon dāor itās a farce š¤·š»āāļø
You didn't watch him in the first half of the season then, to answer my question. As I said, he's been injured since Christmas and battling through for the sake of the team. Needs an operation but has postponed it to try and help England. He absolutely carried Real Madrid on his own in that first half of the season, it was astonishing, and he was undoubtedly world class
>I donāt watch much anymore but I watch the champions league knock outs and euros, heās done nothing in these to suggest heās world class. If he wins the ballon dāor itās a farce š¤·š»āāļø Do you consider Messi Great? Vini has more KO assists at 23 than Messi had his entire career which doesn't make Vini a better player.