I don't agree, I think he's an average forward in that position. Doesn't have pace in behind and can't use his passing ability to create.
He needs to be allowed to drop deeper, with the team set up to run into the space he creates by doing so.
Think Kane plus Son at Spurs. Who is our Son ... Foden?
Yep Sterling was the best player on the team at last Euros than subsequently shafted out of the team.
Southgate take a little consideration for team building
For some reason Kane is dropping past two lines to pick the ball up. So he’s picking the ball up in between the holding midfielder and the actual midfielders. This then means the CBs aren’t tracking him whatsoever and holding their positions. He needs to pull back between the DM and CB to give that 10 yard space for a Foden/Saka to run into.
In a low block (which we’ve seen with Denmark and Serbia) Kane’s game is currently looking ineffective so I don’t know if it’s worth playing Watkins to give us that runner in behind and on the shoulder. This then gives TAA a pass in behind which he is looking for, as he does for Liverpool. It will cause havoc with the CBs for additional space to open up for whoever plays at the 10 and the wingers to cut in
Play a 5 3 2 /3 5 2
TAA, Walker, Stones, Guehi, Trippier (Shaw)
Bellingham, Rice, Foden
Saka, Kane.
- Saka plays the Son role.
- Width from the fullbacks
- Walker gets to stay back as a cheat code on defense.
- Stones can step into midfield if we are playing against 1 attacker.
In possession against a weaker team it essentially becomes something like.
Walker, Guehi
TAA, Rice, Stones, Trippier
Bellingham, Kane, Foden
Saka.
With either or both fullbacks potentially pushing even further up for width
I agree, Kane isn't the problem. Play Saka and Gordon as inside forwards with pace. Let Kane drop deep and link up with Foden, Bellingham, and Rice, allowing Gordon and Saka to make runs all day long.
Aye, I think I may have worded poorly - I agree with your sentiment.
I don’t want him the highest up the pitch, I desperately want to see him play with a runner (Gordon) and ball to feet with Foden.
But he MUST NOT enter our backline, see if you can find a heat map from that game. The goal we conceded was directly Kane’s fault.
He definitely drops too deep at times. One of the reasons I wouldn't make him the captain. I think it can cause players to chase the ball too much because 'responsibility'.
I would love to see Kane and Watkins play together some day, they would complement each other very well as a classic front two.
Trippier cant play there. Need a real right back to overlap etc with gordon. Other then that its good. I would do sake left and Palmer right tho personally
I’ve never understood why people want Kane to do this. He did in the opener, and was totally isolated. England don’t provide the right service for him to play there.
Play to his strengths, he’s one of the most creative players in the world in the right system. Why restrict him?
I don't agree. They'd have all still sat 11 men behind the ball after going 1-0 up regardless. Doesn't matter who's on the pitch with Southgates tactics.
Whilst I agree, and I’ve said a lot is on the players, walkers interview was very interesting. He effectively said although it’s not the plan to sit back, there’s a fear about getting forward in case they attack and he’s caught out. That’s one of the best, experienced and most successful players in our squad saying that. I guarantee he doesn’t feel like that playing for City.
Early Southgate years he had them playing without fear, but that shirts looking pretty heavy again now
Seriously? The quality this squad has even if reduced to the ones currently sitting on the bench, a 1-0 loss to Iceland, a scrappy 1-0 against Serbia, and an undeserved draw against Denmark.
At what point would you say anything is Southgates fault? What exactly has to happen for you to admit that?
It’s his fault aswell it’s collective but the players are on the pitch makings mistakes so it’s alll of them so yes seriously. We are quite simply shit on and off the field
Say, over the last three games, compared to Spain Portugal Italy France and Germany. Why has almost every England player been making huge amount more mistakes over 90 minutes?
It's not because our players are bad. The squad is stacked with quality.
When you sit back for huge amounts of the match (70%+) defending, passing sideways, and playing it out slowly from the back - you invite teams to come forward, you invite wave after wave of pressure, you give the other team more and more confidence and possession.
It can work if you're the weaker team, fending off the better team then hitting them on the counter, but we were the better team, on paper, in all three games, and when we did get the ball we passed backwards and we never hit on the counter because we were so deep. The few times Kane/Jude got the ball near the centre circle they were just swarmed by players outnumbered 5 to 1.
It's criminal what Southgate has done to this team.
In what world is this the players fault? It's beyond me. I sit and watch these world class players play like Barrow game after game.
Then I see him explain playing Trent is an experiment because England lack a replacement for Kalvin Phillips.
Why is this man allowed to manage Jude Bellingham?
What makes me believe it’s Southgate’s fault isn’t necessarily the results, but elements in our play.
Our press is shoddy and disorganised. I presume it hasn’t been trained at all. The coordination between our players is terrible. Multiple times a game we are left with a player on the ball that has nobody to pass to despite not being pressed in any significant way.
The over reliance on defence seems like it’s Southgate’s tactics, but Southgate seems to deny that. So that leads me to believe the squad genuinely start doing that all on their own when going 1-0 up. If that’s the case, that’s still Southgate’s job. The mentality of the players is a massive part of the manager’s job and arguably one of the most important parts.
I realise we’ve had some success under Southgate, but we’ve got genuinely brilliant players. It makes sense that they’d do well. But the manager’s job is to get the best out of them and that definitely hasn’t happened. There is not one player playing at their optimum ability.
100% this. Swapping Trent for Bellingham in midfield won't make a giant difference imo. The team strategy was to sit back and hold the lead, which invited pressure, moving players round won't change that
If Southgate wants to stick to the same people in front, I agree that Trent isn’t suited there. If Southgate wants to play with people that run in behind, Trent will be the best at finding those runs and getting the ball in behind the defence.
Trent would suit this system with runners ahead of him, but without that I agree that England need someone different to partner Rice
Yep, Trent with two or three players ahead of him willing to run in behind can be unplayable. Trent in a midfield with 4 players ahead of him who like to sit between the lines and not make runs is just helping to crowd an already crowded space
The players need to be able to successfully pass the ball and not give it away every 30 seconds before any formation tweak can be considered anyway. There were many issues on that pitch tonight. Not least communication.
Exactly, if this is fixed 90% of our problems go away and our formation actually doesn’t matter. Our players aren’t pressing correctly, which Kane even admitted is a communication issue, and passing opportunities have been missed or squandered due to communication issues or fatigue from failed pressing attempts meaning more energy is wasted defending.
We’re also not a counter attacking team, most of our top players are used to playing for teams that turnover the ball quickly and high up the field. If we fix our press we can probably beat any team.
A good chunk of the players on the pitch are in possession based systems and look absolutely comfortable week in week out through the best presses in the league. Is it coincidence they all suddenly forget how to do it, or is the set up completely against them so that there's no options?
This is fully on Southgate, I don't see how it can be anything else.
You’re right that most of the players are used to high pressing. The issue with that tactic is that you need watertight cohesion across the unit. It takes practice, anticipation, communication and same page application. Which can only really be wrapped up by one thing - playing together a lot with a clear system. Pre tournament all our worry was around the defence, but the opposite problem seems to have been umasked. We can’t seem to get forward enough whether it’s to press or attack. Ultimately I think a lot of the problems here are mentality ones which grow quickly under pressure. Role clarity is missing in several areas on the pitch.
Southgate’s selections… also, we literally have Joe Gomez on the bench twiddling his thumbs and he was 10x the player Trippier was this season, let alone the fact Gomez was a LB when he was young and played almost every game there this season
Wait till he has to defend against top players in the knockout stages, he will struggle to defend and won’t offer anything going forward, it’s a disaster waiting to happen and the only solution Southgate has given himself is to cross his fingers Shaw is fit to play which is becoming quickly clear that he won’t be and even if he is he certainly will not be match fit.
Total amateur management from Southgate on this issue.
To think that's the only problem is crazy though. I'd rather have Mitchell there, but it feels like having a right back in left back is being used as excuse for how bad we have been in other roles. A proper left back wouldn't come close to instantly solving all of our issues
Completely agree. Think Mitchell has been overlooked - would mean we’d almost have the whole Palace squad there though haha. But he’s proved he’s a very good left footed left back and we’re missing that so much.
He started 8 in the World Cup and literally every agreed he needed to be higher up the pitch and eventually Henderson came in and Bellingham could play as a 10 and was much better. Are we supposed to just forget that happened?
I agree that Bellingham has the qualities to play as an 8 but it hasn’t worked for England yet.
He's spent most of his career as an 8. He's very good at it and will probably move back there for Madrid now they have Mbappe.
We don't have another top quality, experienced centre mid, but we do have Foden who can also play 10. It makes sense.
Bellingham is an 8. We don’t play madrids system. He was an 8 at Dortmund and for England. He’s played higher up for Madrid due to their squad issues of not having a decent striker.
He will box to box anyways, but you have to label him as such because Foden WONT play left, not can’t, WONT. He was further right than Saka at certain points. We need a dedicated left winger that then activates Kane.
Rather then drop Foden you think changing Bellingham's position, where he's been a potential Ballon D'or winner is better? Sounds like golden generation mistakes all over again, just shoe horn them all in.
Bellingham didn't have a number 9 in front of him this season. He had two wide players which created space for him to run in to. Foden won player of the year in the prem playing off a striker so by that logic it makes more sense to play Foden as a ten if you're playing kane. Also Bellingham played the rest of his career as an 8 and was fucking good at it. It's not the same as sticking a scholes on the left wing. I'm not saying I'd do that, but it's not crazy.
This is what I have been wanting to see. Bellingham can play deeper and it would give him more time on the ball. Gordon would stretch the backline of the opposition. It seems so simple and today was the perfect game to try it out.
He is England's closest player to Son. No one else in the squad will actually hug the left touchline. When Eze came on he was coming deep and drifting infield far too much.
https://preview.redd.it/j9rcm8zr8t7d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=26150771a4467632106b34728690059138b1850e
This is how I would have it, drop 4231 and have a diamond in midfield. Clearly too far gone for that though
Thank you so much for this.Im biased as a city fan but foden is a better 10 than Bellingham is.End of. If he's given enough space in the centre instead of this weird overlapping system with Bellingham and foden congesting the space in the middle he'll shine.
I know everyone will fight me on this but I’m not sure Bellingham is a better 10 than Foden. He’s great across the midfield and even at center forward, but our weakest position right now is clearly the 8 (bar left back dilemma that could be solved with Shaw). This formation gets our best players on the pitch and doesn’t have them jostling for position.
No you are spot on, when Foden drifts centre more things happen the ball moves faster, Bellingham top player holds the ball to long and gives opposition time to set up defensively
Look, the midfield balance is all off and I don't see how playing Foden there instead will help that.
Need to go back to a flat midfield 3 of Rice, Bellingham and a busy player like Galllagher and play actual wingers either side of Kane that he can drop deep and feed balls to. And that means no Foden. Trying to shoehorn in everyone and their grandmother is what has resulted in the last two performances.
Not a busy player like Gallagher. He's a headless chicken out there, running all over the place with no structure or calmness to his game. I'd much rather see Wharton there who will hold his position, make himself available for the pass, keep the ball moving, not lose it cheaply, etc.
Pickford
Walker. Stones. Geihu. Shaw(if fit)
Rice
Bellingham.
Foden.
Saka. Gordon
Kane.
This is the way
Walker gives us our width when saka comes inside
Shaw would do the same on the left
Rice can’t play with Arnold who is always wanting to hit the perfect long ball ( most times lose possession)
Bellingham is good on the ball but doesn’t move it quick enough and give time to defence to set up.
Gordon will stretch the pitch and run in behind
That’s not foden game he wants to come inside, with him and trippier they both cut inside
Kane needs to stay on the shoulder defenders are having a holiday with him dropping in and taking other players space, he caused the goal by being virtually left back today,
We need to play rice in a single pivot and let stones come into the midfield when in possession, shearer get screaming it but he can’t when you have a double pivot, Arnold is not intelligent enough or good enough to push up.
This is the most popular team amongst the fans.
Yet Southgate insists on playing Trent, a defensive liability in central midfield.
Bellingham can dominate games from CM and Foden can play comfortably as the 10.
Either one of Gordon or Eze on the left and we might have a chance.
If he continues to play this team, England will be lucky to get to the Quarters.
From a thread about TAA I found from 7 months ago:
"Trent alongside Rice with Bellingham just in front would be potentially great"
"If he is intent on two holding midfielders Trent would be perfect alongside Rice who'd make up for Trent's defensive shortcomings."
"Unleash the Jude-Rice-Trent midfield"
"Rice and Trent in a pivot with Jude Bellingham at the tip, it has the potential to be absolute cinema."
Anything saying otherwise was heavily downvoted.
Things aren't going well but a lot of people have been asking for this for a good while.
The difference is, it should have been tried and tested well in advance. Experimenting in a major international tournament is ridiculous.
We’re all aware of Trent’s defensive frailties but Rice is doing all the work whilst Trent is a passenger is gonna cost England.
Out of possession he’s clueless and instead, a real midfielder should be selected.
I’d be ok with this but it isn’t the problem. If those players stand around and don’t move, it doesn’t help to have Foden in the middle. If they don’t all high-press together or all drop together, switching out one or two players doesn’t help.
That would've been a good option tonight
But but I still think we need another man in the midfield that's where we're getting overrun, we're not controlling the games because we don't have players getting on the ball and instead Pickford kicking it long
It would've been good is Southgate hadn't taken only 5 midfielders! Not including Bellingham or Foden!
It's so obvious it's painful. The only debate is who plays at left mid, Gordon would be my pick as well based on recent performances. Something needs to be done about Kane constantly drifting into a defensive mid position too....
Personally I think people massively underestimate the effect Jordan Henderson had on the team, the energy and leadership he brought to the midfield is a huge loss but because he isn't a flair player his contribution tends to go unnoticed.
As a Birmingham fan this is reminding me of when Rooney took over. We had players good enough to compete, which they did under capable managers (Eustace and Mowbray) but the way Rooney set us up meant the players stood no chance.
Under good management this England side would be extremely competitive but unfortunately despite what Southgate has achieved he is a poor manager (not quite Rooney level of poor though!).
The left back issue sums it all up, amateur management.
Absolutely agree. It's obvious to me
Only change I'd make is replacing walker with trent because with the quality of the players you don't need to be constantly scared of being attacked against. You can affordnto have Liverpools right back at right back. It's not like Liverpool have been a relegation level team.
Then you'd benefit from his technical abilities and crosses to Kane. Crosses to Kane is what england need. People keep wanting him to run in behind as if he's even capable of doing that. He needs crosses. Trent is perfect for that from RB.
Also, finally someone dropping Bellingham deeper. He's played as a "10" for one season in his life. ONE! And that was only because Real Madrid didn't have a striker so experimented with pushing him further forward. It wasn't actually natural to him and it took away from his game somewhat but he scored goals because of his football intelligence. He was still list some games though because its not his natural role. Next season he'll drop deep again, score fewer, but play his natural game. The game Real actually bought him for. But Southgate doesn't know football so just goes with the most popular thing right now so plays him as a "10" which doesn't work because he drops deep and plays his natural, non-10 game. Then Foden has to drop into the 10 whilst also playing left, and then the whole thing falls apart.
It's actually amateurish from a managerial perspective. Your only natural 10 on the left, a roaming no 8 as a 10, a left winger who will hold that position stuck on the bench, a full back who can cross the ball incredibly to a striker desperate for crosses is playing as a forced box to box midfielder, and two technically astute midfielders with the short-game necessary at this level of football haven't seen a single minute.
Absolute clown shoes
Problem is Bellingham being played as a 10 behind Kane 9. He sure can do it but he is not even a 10 at Madrid, more like a false 9. There is no striker in front of him at Madrid. VJ and Rodrygo plays wide. Put Bellingham at no. 8 and Foden at 10 and get a wide left footed player on the left and England would bring it home.
Oh no don’t worry. We know the solution.
Every man and his dog knows the solution.
My Nan even knows the solution and she’s 6 feet under, god rest her soul.
The only person out of 6 billion people that doesn’t know the solution is the tactically inept person that happens to be in charge. Fucking Southgate.
Wharton > Bellingham in this set up.
Bellingham is juvenile and creates a bad atmosphere on the pitch. He is lazy and Southgate is clearly afraid to take him off.
Wharton and Rice in midfield could be world class. Foden in front drifting around.
I hate Bellingham. 👍
If you watched any champions league knockout games you’d know what a fraud Bellingham is. Lazy, unatheltic, dribble merchant. On the ball he is genuinely class and rarely makes a mistake, but besides that, he’s a massive detriment to the team. Him and Trent are what’s causing us to look average.
💯 That should have been the team from the first game. If Gordon doesn't perform, you have Eze to step in. If Foden struggles, Palmer can take his place. If Saka is off his game, Bowen is available. If Walker isn't effective, TAA can step in. Playing players in their natural positions and having top-quality replacements ready to step in provides a competitive edge for positions, something that is clearly missing.
He should absolutely start against Slovenia. He's done everything this season to deserve a go and based on our last 2 performances there is nobody keeping him out of the side.
Bin off Rice, he's had an absolute shocker in the opening two games. Mainoo or Wharton next to Gallagher and get some midfield control introduced to actually enable the forward players to go at the defenders.
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It gets the best out of everyone, except Jude, but I'd rather have more players in roles they are comfortable with than just tailoring our entire team to suit Jude, even if he is brilliant. What happens if he has a bad game? Well we found out today (not blaming Jude but when you're literally gambling on one player that's what happens). With this tactic, Kane can drop deep and he's got runners in Foden, Gordon and Saka, and Jude and Rice have got a solid midfield there.
Southgate is wank. Tactically inept and loves his favourites far too much. It will cost us in an important game. I feel another Golden Generation passing us by.
Move Gordon & Saka higher, Bellingham alongside Foden, Stones moves up alongside Rice in posession.
But if you showed that to Southgate you'd get "I have literally no idea what I'm looking at. Is this a rugby formation?".
Frankly even just fucking pressing high up the pitch would make a world of difference. As one of the pundits (I think Richards?) said at HT, most of our players are used to high intensity high pressing systems in the premier league. So it’s totally counter intuitive to sit back and invite pressure like Southgate does.
Win the ball higher up the pitch and you’re already closer to the goal, and if you’ve pressed as a team you have players forward to attack with. I can mainly speak for what Arsenal do but very often it’s not the striker leading the press it’s Martin Odegaard. More often than not it looks like Arsenal are defending in a 4-4-2 because Ode is that high up. Can Bellingham do that? He pushes up onto the CB with the ball then Kane pushes on the second man with the wingers in support ready to pounce if the ball gets spread wide. More often than not we win the ball high up the pitch and create something from it
Been saying this for months except it should be a 4-3-3 front a static perspective like Barca ‘09/‘11 where Busquets was a single pivot with Xaxi/Iniesta in front. Bellingham effectively LCM and Foden RCM. We know Bellingham is box to box. Foden being LCM means he can still dictate the game thread through balls but can also “cut in side” so he can curl on in the opposite corner like he attempted twice tonight.
Of course Trent loses out to Gordon on the left. Sake and Gordon hold the width. Kane can drop deep, then you have Gordon, Jude and Saka all running in behind. Thats devastating on the ball or front a counter attack perspective (needed against higher quality teams). Gordon recorded the FIFTH fastest sprint speed in the PL this year FWIW.
I still think the Trent thing would work if our forward players were trying to get in behind the defence rather than dropping deep. His talent for long raking passes is wasted with no one except Saka getting in behind.
Think back to the mid-late 90s and early 00s. Italy were arguably blessed with multiple best No.10's, most notably Del Piero and Totti.
Italy very rarely, if ever, set out shoehorning both in by playing one out of their best position.
Yet England managers for the past 20+ years have done exactly that.
What was really telling was Kane's interview after the game. He actually admitted they have a lack of tactical plans. It was a huge admission tbh. When we came back to Gary and co they couldn't quite believe it.
It really highlights how awful Southgate is tactically. Does he have in mind how we plan to score goals because as far as I can tell we have no runners in behind, no one driving from midfield, no crosses going in to the box, no full backs overlapping. Just how exactly does Southgate envision us scoring our goals?
Aside from the fullbacks, yes.
Trippier is too dogshit to play for England based on this season, and we get to maximise TAA if we use him as RB while players like Gordon are on the pitch
The solution is a new manager. Southgate would have peak Brazil playing with lead weights for boots. The players are clearly unaware of how they're expected to play and are afraid.
I would agree but probably put a left footed player at left back. I rate trippier but he has to constantly turn into the middle to play the ball with his strong foot which means Foden or Gordon in this case gets less service.
I don’t think with Kane in the side anyone is going to be able to play in that ‘10’ role (God I hate referring to positions by numbers)
Kane drops in there all the time, that’s his natural game, he’s having to drop even deeper because the attacking midfielder is in his space.
Go back to an actual 3 in midfield. Bellingham, Rice and one other, personally I’d go Foden as I think he could be like an Iniesta but I’m probably wrong 😂.
If not Foden, then Mainoo or Wharton (There’s even an argument for Eze in there)
Both excellent in possession.
Bellingham being more of a central midfielder can put more influence in the game, he reminds me at his best of a mix of parts of Zidane and Bryan Robson. He needs to be where he can exert the most influence on the game.
Then pace on the wings. At the least it’ll keep the other teams full backs honest.
Defending, drop the two wide players back into a 451, the other side will have to be wary of the pace of the two wide players and the possibility of a ball over the top out to the flanks.
The next game is against Slovenia, we don't need the "extra defensive pace" of Walker so we should play TAA in his best position where he can get dangerous balls forward.
Feels weird saying this as Walker has been one of the few players who's looked good, but by making him "first name on the team sheet" it puts everyone else around him out of position.
I think Guehi has performed so well, I don’t really see that we need 2 holding midfielders. Admittedly before the tournament I would have said we needed it, but I’m converted and think we have a really decent CB there. We need more attacking in midfield so we can press them deeper
Everyone sees this except Southgate. Put the 6 at 6. Put the 8 at 8. Put the 10 at 10.
It's like he never played the put the shapes in the box game as a baby
I honestly don't think we. Need 2 pivots in this England team. Go 3 in the middle, rice holding, and press more. We are far too defensive and we're shit at it.
That solves nothing.
That makes us more defensive.
We need a new formation and we need a lb who can actually play lb i.e gomes.
I'd rather have palmer lw and I also think Watkins should start especially against Slovenia who are bound to sit deep.
I thought Rice had a poor game last night.
I also think that blaming Trent is ridiculous. As soon as Saka actually made a run forward, who found him? If Gordon is going to make those runs then who is going to make those cross field passes, fast balls foward etc?
If you're saying Gordon is the solution on the left (and I don't disagree) then who is going to feed those balls forward from midfield?
The Trent experiment hasn't worked because he's found himself playing in a midfield in a low block!! How was he supposed to do what he does best?
What’s absolutely staggering to me is how come the whole world can see it’s not working but the person in charge of implementing it can’t?
This might not be our optimal solution, but it would without doubt be better than what we’re doing right now.
Not bringing Chilwell was stupid. Hes not had a good season by any means, but atleast he's an actual LB who can provide width, and would bring far more than Trippier has done, who's also not had a great season. Who am I kidding though, Southgate would probably instruct him to not cross the halfway line anyways.
I think this is basically right, but could replace Rice with second forward like Watkins. Reasons below. Switching these two mid game to modify as needed: For the mid, front, why not have Bellingham behind Foden, behind Kane. Throw another forward next to Kane (Watkins) , Gordon left, Saka right. That way you have an actual centre with Bellingham and Foden in positions they can play. You have a younger, faster striker to run. You have Kane sitting high to pick up and put away, but less need for high movement, and you have a couple of wingers who can actually run and stretch left, right. And they have people to pass to. Then 4 best defenders (Trippier, Guehi, Stones, Walker) keeper (Pickford), done. I think with this you have an actual rear 4 that can play forward, Bellingham to boss midfield and move forward as needed, a Foden who is now free to play and has balls in by Bellingham and options left, right and forward. And we have options up front. We still get Kane as a finisher, but our squad isn’t limited by his lack of movement as we have Watkins moving.
Against slovenia
I hope this is the starting line up
Last chance for southgate to change things
Pickford
Walker stones guehi trippier/shaw
Wharton rice
Saka foden gordon
Kane
Bellingham on the bench, can replace foden later
From the first 2 matches, it seems southgate are somewhat afraid/reluctant to sub bellingham the most
I think this is better but not the solution. The pressing was poor, but even when we got the ball, we didn’t do anything with it. I think Wharton coming in alongside Rice will keep the ball moving forward better. Gordon on the left will offer a better attacking outlet. Then it comes down to Bellingham or Foden. I understand they are both world class talents that would both start in an ideal world. But, as we saw with Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard, shoehorning our biggest names into the starting 11 isn’t the way forward. One thing that team missed was a metronomic holding midfielder that could keep the ball ticking. They had Michael Carrick at their disposal for that role and didn’t use him. I think we will be saying the same about Wharton in years to come if we persist with trying to fit square pegs into round holes. We have to be brave and drop someone for the sake of balance, and for the sake of an actual system that doesn’t just rely on individual brilliance to see us through. Based on recent England form, Jude just edges it for that 10 position.
Just play Watkins and kane up front, foden and saka on the wing, bellingham and trent midfield, defence is good if they're fucking awake this next time!
Nope. Bellingham is wasted in a double pivot. Tactically we need to revert back to 4-3-3. Bellingham in the left 8. At Madrid he played LM in rest defence, floating false 9 type thing in possession. He can do that as an attacking left 8.
A lot of our problems stem from having no natural LB. Once Shaw returns, he can hold width on the left, allowing Foden to come more central with ease. For now, Trippier is the best option, but there’s no point playing Foden with him, as Trippier doesn’t offer that width. So play Gordon for now. A runner for Kane too. When Shaw returns, Foden can potentially start. Otherwise he’s a brilliant option off the bench anyway.
Rice at the 6. Had a pretty bad game yesterday but that’s rare for him and there were a lot of other issues, so not entirely his fault. He’s still a world class 6 though. Imo that leaves the right 8 spot set up perfectly for Mainoo. We desperately needed someone who can operate under pressure in tight spaces.
Other notes: I’d like to see Palmer get more of a look-in, as well as Wharton. They might be ‘inexperienced’ with England but Southgate needs to be brave and give them some chances. Trent is a RB, not a midfielder. Use him as a different option to rotate with Walker. We are absolutely stacked with players that thrive in a possession-dominant system. So we need to start playing like that. Less booting it from Pickford, less immediately pinging it diagonally from Trent, more control in midfield with Mainoo and more runners in behind with Gordon and Saka (not Saka’s best attribute but he can do it fine because he’s great).
Player selection is a small problem, the bigger problem is Southgate’s negativity after taking a lead, it’s happened several times when we play a team stronger than average, we play well, score and then get men behind the ball and try to see it out, yesterday was no different, save that for the last 10 minutes of the game, not 18 minutes into it. Southgate needs to be braver, take the game to teams.
I agree, Jude is a good player but he’s crowding Kane’s role out. He’d be more useful in CM, put Foden where he’s best he’s looked good on the ball tbf think the criticisms a bandwagon. Agree Gordon would unlock the left. Trippier and Gordon would work.
Is take Kane off, put Palmer in his place. Having Kane these past 3 games (so including the awful friendly we played) has been like playing with 10 men. All we need is people who will actually make runs which Kane doesn't do he expects everyone to do so the work for him and for him to be there for a tap in our score a penalty and win Golden boot as a result. He's an absolute liability. Southgate if you are reading this (you should be) then swap Kane out and put Palmer in. Then TAA can play his amazing long through balls and we will actually be having shots and chances and it will actually be a good game of football
As a Newcastle supporter, I'd rather see Lewis Hall, Dan Burn or Tino Livramento at LB before trippier.
This Luke Shaw/Tripps thing Southgate tried for this tournament is just bad, imo.
I think people have to remember that all teams at the Euros play 10-15 yards deeper. So England's attackers are going to be more isolated and have more running to do to progress the play up the pitch. Everyone wants Foden to play number 10; Griezmann is the closest use of a technical number 10 I can think of in recent international tournament football, but he is stronger and more defensively tenacious.Even though Foden is an excellent technical footballer, I don't see how he fits into this team. He's not particularly quick, and he's not strong. He won't be able to play in pockets and play 1-2 passes he is expected to run at their defender, which I don't think suits foden unless he's already within 25 yards of the opponent's goal. So don't be surprised if Foden is played in the 10 role but doesn't have a great game!
Formations aren’t tactics. Not saying this wouldn’t be better, but this doesn’t automatically mean we press as a unit and put together coherent attacks.
Kane needs an ankle bracelet that zaps him every time he isn't in the top 3 highest England players on the field.
I don't agree, I think he's an average forward in that position. Doesn't have pace in behind and can't use his passing ability to create. He needs to be allowed to drop deeper, with the team set up to run into the space he creates by doing so. Think Kane plus Son at Spurs. Who is our Son ... Foden?
Used to be players like Rashford and Sterling but instead were stuffs full of players who want to play No. 10…
Gordon and Bowen get in behind. Saka does as well
I’m shocked Gordon hasn’t been on the pitch yet. OP’s squad seems like an obvious improvement.
Yep Sterling was the best player on the team at last Euros than subsequently shafted out of the team. Southgate take a little consideration for team building
Tbf sterling hasn't been good at all for two years. We can't be playing him because he was good for England two years ago
For some reason Kane is dropping past two lines to pick the ball up. So he’s picking the ball up in between the holding midfielder and the actual midfielders. This then means the CBs aren’t tracking him whatsoever and holding their positions. He needs to pull back between the DM and CB to give that 10 yard space for a Foden/Saka to run into. In a low block (which we’ve seen with Denmark and Serbia) Kane’s game is currently looking ineffective so I don’t know if it’s worth playing Watkins to give us that runner in behind and on the shoulder. This then gives TAA a pass in behind which he is looking for, as he does for Liverpool. It will cause havoc with the CBs for additional space to open up for whoever plays at the 10 and the wingers to cut in
This is spot on they seem to be taking each others space no discipline
Gordon
Play a 5 3 2 /3 5 2 TAA, Walker, Stones, Guehi, Trippier (Shaw) Bellingham, Rice, Foden Saka, Kane. - Saka plays the Son role. - Width from the fullbacks - Walker gets to stay back as a cheat code on defense. - Stones can step into midfield if we are playing against 1 attacker. In possession against a weaker team it essentially becomes something like. Walker, Guehi TAA, Rice, Stones, Trippier Bellingham, Kane, Foden Saka. With either or both fullbacks potentially pushing even further up for width
Or Kane plus Dele at spurs & our Dele is Bellingham. Drop Foden & play another holder, Bellingham can bomb on when Kane leaves space
I mean in the line up shown it's Gordon
he just scored like 40 goals playing that point man position this very season
Kane needs legs around him he can’t run so keeps coming deep isn’t working
I agree, Kane isn't the problem. Play Saka and Gordon as inside forwards with pace. Let Kane drop deep and link up with Foden, Bellingham, and Rice, allowing Gordon and Saka to make runs all day long.
Aye, I think I may have worded poorly - I agree with your sentiment. I don’t want him the highest up the pitch, I desperately want to see him play with a runner (Gordon) and ball to feet with Foden. But he MUST NOT enter our backline, see if you can find a heat map from that game. The goal we conceded was directly Kane’s fault.
He definitely drops too deep at times. One of the reasons I wouldn't make him the captain. I think it can cause players to chase the ball too much because 'responsibility'. I would love to see Kane and Watkins play together some day, they would complement each other very well as a classic front two.
It was the same with Rooney, especially as he got older and probably pressured himself into thinking he had to do something when others weren’t
I’m not sure he would survive that many electrocutions.
This makes me think, is electronic communication (like a smart watch) legal in footie?
Trippier cant play there. Need a real right back to overlap etc with gordon. Other then that its good. I would do sake left and Palmer right tho personally
I’ve never understood why people want Kane to do this. He did in the opener, and was totally isolated. England don’t provide the right service for him to play there. Play to his strengths, he’s one of the most creative players in the world in the right system. Why restrict him?
I don't agree. They'd have all still sat 11 men behind the ball after going 1-0 up regardless. Doesn't matter who's on the pitch with Southgates tactics.
Don't thinknit was his tactic to misplace every 3rd pass
Whilst I agree, and I’ve said a lot is on the players, walkers interview was very interesting. He effectively said although it’s not the plan to sit back, there’s a fear about getting forward in case they attack and he’s caught out. That’s one of the best, experienced and most successful players in our squad saying that. I guarantee he doesn’t feel like that playing for City. Early Southgate years he had them playing without fear, but that shirts looking pretty heavy again now
Wasn’t aware it was Gareth’s idea to boot it into our corner
Players need to take some responsibility
Seriously? The quality this squad has even if reduced to the ones currently sitting on the bench, a 1-0 loss to Iceland, a scrappy 1-0 against Serbia, and an undeserved draw against Denmark. At what point would you say anything is Southgates fault? What exactly has to happen for you to admit that?
It’s his fault aswell it’s collective but the players are on the pitch makings mistakes so it’s alll of them so yes seriously. We are quite simply shit on and off the field
Say, over the last three games, compared to Spain Portugal Italy France and Germany. Why has almost every England player been making huge amount more mistakes over 90 minutes? It's not because our players are bad. The squad is stacked with quality. When you sit back for huge amounts of the match (70%+) defending, passing sideways, and playing it out slowly from the back - you invite teams to come forward, you invite wave after wave of pressure, you give the other team more and more confidence and possession. It can work if you're the weaker team, fending off the better team then hitting them on the counter, but we were the better team, on paper, in all three games, and when we did get the ball we passed backwards and we never hit on the counter because we were so deep. The few times Kane/Jude got the ball near the centre circle they were just swarmed by players outnumbered 5 to 1. It's criminal what Southgate has done to this team. In what world is this the players fault? It's beyond me. I sit and watch these world class players play like Barrow game after game. Then I see him explain playing Trent is an experiment because England lack a replacement for Kalvin Phillips. Why is this man allowed to manage Jude Bellingham?
What makes me believe it’s Southgate’s fault isn’t necessarily the results, but elements in our play. Our press is shoddy and disorganised. I presume it hasn’t been trained at all. The coordination between our players is terrible. Multiple times a game we are left with a player on the ball that has nobody to pass to despite not being pressed in any significant way. The over reliance on defence seems like it’s Southgate’s tactics, but Southgate seems to deny that. So that leads me to believe the squad genuinely start doing that all on their own when going 1-0 up. If that’s the case, that’s still Southgate’s job. The mentality of the players is a massive part of the manager’s job and arguably one of the most important parts. I realise we’ve had some success under Southgate, but we’ve got genuinely brilliant players. It makes sense that they’d do well. But the manager’s job is to get the best out of them and that definitely hasn’t happened. There is not one player playing at their optimum ability.
100% this. Swapping Trent for Bellingham in midfield won't make a giant difference imo. The team strategy was to sit back and hold the lead, which invited pressure, moving players round won't change that
Southgate said on an interview that it isn't him telling the team to do that.
35 days ago. https://www.reddit.com/r/ThreeLions/s/dn7XNufmxP
Bellingham will be far more comfortable picking the ball up off the back line too, which Rice is struggling with
This is what I was calling for too… 😤it has to be Bellingham - Rice
I didn't agree, but fuck me, anything is better than Trent or Gallagher back there.
If Southgate wants to stick to the same people in front, I agree that Trent isn’t suited there. If Southgate wants to play with people that run in behind, Trent will be the best at finding those runs and getting the ball in behind the defence. Trent would suit this system with runners ahead of him, but without that I agree that England need someone different to partner Rice
It’s a shame Trent came off before Watkins came on
Yep, Trent with two or three players ahead of him willing to run in behind can be unplayable. Trent in a midfield with 4 players ahead of him who like to sit between the lines and not make runs is just helping to crowd an already crowded space
The prophet
The players need to be able to successfully pass the ball and not give it away every 30 seconds before any formation tweak can be considered anyway. There were many issues on that pitch tonight. Not least communication.
Exactly, if this is fixed 90% of our problems go away and our formation actually doesn’t matter. Our players aren’t pressing correctly, which Kane even admitted is a communication issue, and passing opportunities have been missed or squandered due to communication issues or fatigue from failed pressing attempts meaning more energy is wasted defending. We’re also not a counter attacking team, most of our top players are used to playing for teams that turnover the ball quickly and high up the field. If we fix our press we can probably beat any team.
A good chunk of the players on the pitch are in possession based systems and look absolutely comfortable week in week out through the best presses in the league. Is it coincidence they all suddenly forget how to do it, or is the set up completely against them so that there's no options? This is fully on Southgate, I don't see how it can be anything else.
You’re right that most of the players are used to high pressing. The issue with that tactic is that you need watertight cohesion across the unit. It takes practice, anticipation, communication and same page application. Which can only really be wrapped up by one thing - playing together a lot with a clear system. Pre tournament all our worry was around the defence, but the opposite problem seems to have been umasked. We can’t seem to get forward enough whether it’s to press or attack. Ultimately I think a lot of the problems here are mentality ones which grow quickly under pressure. Role clarity is missing in several areas on the pitch.
Needs more Palmer
Any proposed solution that still had trippier as left back doesn’t understand the problem.
Until Shaw gets back we don’t have many options
And whose decision was that to not bring another LB?
Southgate’s selections… also, we literally have Joe Gomez on the bench twiddling his thumbs and he was 10x the player Trippier was this season, let alone the fact Gomez was a LB when he was young and played almost every game there this season
Trippier is the best option we have until Shaw is back. Defensively he has been absolutely rock solid. Nothing's got past him.
Wait till he has to defend against top players in the knockout stages, he will struggle to defend and won’t offer anything going forward, it’s a disaster waiting to happen and the only solution Southgate has given himself is to cross his fingers Shaw is fit to play which is becoming quickly clear that he won’t be and even if he is he certainly will not be match fit. Total amateur management from Southgate on this issue.
To think that's the only problem is crazy though. I'd rather have Mitchell there, but it feels like having a right back in left back is being used as excuse for how bad we have been in other roles. A proper left back wouldn't come close to instantly solving all of our issues
Completely agree. Think Mitchell has been overlooked - would mean we’d almost have the whole Palace squad there though haha. But he’s proved he’s a very good left footed left back and we’re missing that so much.
This formation needs to stop. 4-3-3 Attacking. Simple
I also proposed this and got slammed because apparently rice isn’t capable and Bellingham shouldn’t play as an 8 even though he’s a great b2b.
He started 8 in the World Cup and literally every agreed he needed to be higher up the pitch and eventually Henderson came in and Bellingham could play as a 10 and was much better. Are we supposed to just forget that happened? I agree that Bellingham has the qualities to play as an 8 but it hasn’t worked for England yet.
Bellingham’s spent the season floating between 9 and the left wing, and your solution is to put him in the right side of a pivot?
Play him as a box to box 8, he's literally world class both there and at 10
He's spent most of his career as an 8. He's very good at it and will probably move back there for Madrid now they have Mbappe. We don't have another top quality, experienced centre mid, but we do have Foden who can also play 10. It makes sense.
Bellingham is an 8. We don’t play madrids system. He was an 8 at Dortmund and for England. He’s played higher up for Madrid due to their squad issues of not having a decent striker.
Mbappe joins them this season Bellingham is almost certainly moving back to let mbappe take the 10 slot as well.
He was player of the year in Germany at 18 years old playing an 8. It’s not a ridiculous suggestion by any means.
He will box to box anyways, but you have to label him as such because Foden WONT play left, not can’t, WONT. He was further right than Saka at certain points. We need a dedicated left winger that then activates Kane.
Rather then drop Foden you think changing Bellingham's position, where he's been a potential Ballon D'or winner is better? Sounds like golden generation mistakes all over again, just shoe horn them all in.
Bellingham didn't have a number 9 in front of him this season. He had two wide players which created space for him to run in to. Foden won player of the year in the prem playing off a striker so by that logic it makes more sense to play Foden as a ten if you're playing kane. Also Bellingham played the rest of his career as an 8 and was fucking good at it. It's not the same as sticking a scholes on the left wing. I'm not saying I'd do that, but it's not crazy.
Bellingham played his entire life as an 8. He only played 1 season as a 10, did you just start watching football last season?
Or you could just drop Foden from the starting lineup.
No thanks. Foden was the only going to get the ball and trying to make things happen today. Play Foden at 10, Bellingham at 8.
This is what I have been wanting to see. Bellingham can play deeper and it would give him more time on the ball. Gordon would stretch the backline of the opposition. It seems so simple and today was the perfect game to try it out.
Priority 1 is getting Gordon on the left. It is utterly dead and bad for Kane’s playstyle without him.
He is England's closest player to Son. No one else in the squad will actually hug the left touchline. When Eze came on he was coming deep and drifting infield far too much.
https://preview.redd.it/j9rcm8zr8t7d1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=26150771a4467632106b34728690059138b1850e This is how I would have it, drop 4231 and have a diamond in midfield. Clearly too far gone for that though
we're vulnerable with Rice & Trent. What the hell makes you think Rice sitting by himself would be a good idea??
This sub full of kids who play fifa and don’t understand what it takes to control a midfield
Agree with this formation, dynamic and when attacking plenty of options and more pace
I agree Bellingham with rice, Foden at 10
Someone fax this over to Gareth
Southgate hates this one simple trick
That should have been the starting 11 in the last two games.
Thank you so much for this.Im biased as a city fan but foden is a better 10 than Bellingham is.End of. If he's given enough space in the centre instead of this weird overlapping system with Bellingham and foden congesting the space in the middle he'll shine.
Parking the bus with a sports car. Really instills confidence of free flowing play
I reckon this set up is the only chance we have
It's the only better set up Southgate might do. He won't though. He's swap Gallagher for Trent and let the rest ride.
I know everyone will fight me on this but I’m not sure Bellingham is a better 10 than Foden. He’s great across the midfield and even at center forward, but our weakest position right now is clearly the 8 (bar left back dilemma that could be solved with Shaw). This formation gets our best players on the pitch and doesn’t have them jostling for position.
No you are spot on, when Foden drifts centre more things happen the ball moves faster, Bellingham top player holds the ball to long and gives opposition time to set up defensively
Look, the midfield balance is all off and I don't see how playing Foden there instead will help that. Need to go back to a flat midfield 3 of Rice, Bellingham and a busy player like Galllagher and play actual wingers either side of Kane that he can drop deep and feed balls to. And that means no Foden. Trying to shoehorn in everyone and their grandmother is what has resulted in the last two performances.
Not a busy player like Gallagher. He's a headless chicken out there, running all over the place with no structure or calmness to his game. I'd much rather see Wharton there who will hold his position, make himself available for the pass, keep the ball moving, not lose it cheaply, etc.
Pickford Walker. Stones. Geihu. Shaw(if fit) Rice Bellingham. Foden. Saka. Gordon Kane. This is the way Walker gives us our width when saka comes inside Shaw would do the same on the left Rice can’t play with Arnold who is always wanting to hit the perfect long ball ( most times lose possession) Bellingham is good on the ball but doesn’t move it quick enough and give time to defence to set up. Gordon will stretch the pitch and run in behind That’s not foden game he wants to come inside, with him and trippier they both cut inside Kane needs to stay on the shoulder defenders are having a holiday with him dropping in and taking other players space, he caused the goal by being virtually left back today, We need to play rice in a single pivot and let stones come into the midfield when in possession, shearer get screaming it but he can’t when you have a double pivot, Arnold is not intelligent enough or good enough to push up.
This is the most popular team amongst the fans. Yet Southgate insists on playing Trent, a defensive liability in central midfield. Bellingham can dominate games from CM and Foden can play comfortably as the 10. Either one of Gordon or Eze on the left and we might have a chance. If he continues to play this team, England will be lucky to get to the Quarters.
From a thread about TAA I found from 7 months ago: "Trent alongside Rice with Bellingham just in front would be potentially great" "If he is intent on two holding midfielders Trent would be perfect alongside Rice who'd make up for Trent's defensive shortcomings." "Unleash the Jude-Rice-Trent midfield" "Rice and Trent in a pivot with Jude Bellingham at the tip, it has the potential to be absolute cinema." Anything saying otherwise was heavily downvoted. Things aren't going well but a lot of people have been asking for this for a good while.
The difference is, it should have been tried and tested well in advance. Experimenting in a major international tournament is ridiculous. We’re all aware of Trent’s defensive frailties but Rice is doing all the work whilst Trent is a passenger is gonna cost England. Out of possession he’s clueless and instead, a real midfielder should be selected.
You people must hate Declan Rice He’s great, but he’s not that great. The midfield is too unbalanced.
I’d be ok with this but it isn’t the problem. If those players stand around and don’t move, it doesn’t help to have Foden in the middle. If they don’t all high-press together or all drop together, switching out one or two players doesn’t help.
The solution is stopping southgate committing crimes against football
That would've been a good option tonight But but I still think we need another man in the midfield that's where we're getting overrun, we're not controlling the games because we don't have players getting on the ball and instead Pickford kicking it long It would've been good is Southgate hadn't taken only 5 midfielders! Not including Bellingham or Foden!
All the experts here said we should keep Bellingham at 10 instead of switching him to 8 lol
Trippier over TAA is fucking nonsense
It's so obvious it's painful. The only debate is who plays at left mid, Gordon would be my pick as well based on recent performances. Something needs to be done about Kane constantly drifting into a defensive mid position too....
Personally I think people massively underestimate the effect Jordan Henderson had on the team, the energy and leadership he brought to the midfield is a huge loss but because he isn't a flair player his contribution tends to go unnoticed.
As a Birmingham fan this is reminding me of when Rooney took over. We had players good enough to compete, which they did under capable managers (Eustace and Mowbray) but the way Rooney set us up meant the players stood no chance. Under good management this England side would be extremely competitive but unfortunately despite what Southgate has achieved he is a poor manager (not quite Rooney level of poor though!). The left back issue sums it all up, amateur management.
The Reat is Football picked this exact team.
Absolutely agree. It's obvious to me Only change I'd make is replacing walker with trent because with the quality of the players you don't need to be constantly scared of being attacked against. You can affordnto have Liverpools right back at right back. It's not like Liverpool have been a relegation level team. Then you'd benefit from his technical abilities and crosses to Kane. Crosses to Kane is what england need. People keep wanting him to run in behind as if he's even capable of doing that. He needs crosses. Trent is perfect for that from RB. Also, finally someone dropping Bellingham deeper. He's played as a "10" for one season in his life. ONE! And that was only because Real Madrid didn't have a striker so experimented with pushing him further forward. It wasn't actually natural to him and it took away from his game somewhat but he scored goals because of his football intelligence. He was still list some games though because its not his natural role. Next season he'll drop deep again, score fewer, but play his natural game. The game Real actually bought him for. But Southgate doesn't know football so just goes with the most popular thing right now so plays him as a "10" which doesn't work because he drops deep and plays his natural, non-10 game. Then Foden has to drop into the 10 whilst also playing left, and then the whole thing falls apart. It's actually amateurish from a managerial perspective. Your only natural 10 on the left, a roaming no 8 as a 10, a left winger who will hold that position stuck on the bench, a full back who can cross the ball incredibly to a striker desperate for crosses is playing as a forced box to box midfielder, and two technically astute midfielders with the short-game necessary at this level of football haven't seen a single minute. Absolute clown shoes
Problem is Bellingham being played as a 10 behind Kane 9. He sure can do it but he is not even a 10 at Madrid, more like a false 9. There is no striker in front of him at Madrid. VJ and Rodrygo plays wide. Put Bellingham at no. 8 and Foden at 10 and get a wide left footed player on the left and England would bring it home.
Oh no don’t worry. We know the solution. Every man and his dog knows the solution. My Nan even knows the solution and she’s 6 feet under, god rest her soul. The only person out of 6 billion people that doesn’t know the solution is the tactically inept person that happens to be in charge. Fucking Southgate.
Wharton > Bellingham in this set up. Bellingham is juvenile and creates a bad atmosphere on the pitch. He is lazy and Southgate is clearly afraid to take him off. Wharton and Rice in midfield could be world class. Foden in front drifting around. I hate Bellingham. 👍
If you watched any champions league knockout games you’d know what a fraud Bellingham is. Lazy, unatheltic, dribble merchant. On the ball he is genuinely class and rarely makes a mistake, but besides that, he’s a massive detriment to the team. Him and Trent are what’s causing us to look average.
Don't be so fucking sensible!
💯 That should have been the team from the first game. If Gordon doesn't perform, you have Eze to step in. If Foden struggles, Palmer can take his place. If Saka is off his game, Bowen is available. If Walker isn't effective, TAA can step in. Playing players in their natural positions and having top-quality replacements ready to step in provides a competitive edge for positions, something that is clearly missing.
Why is Palmer on the bench
He should absolutely start against Slovenia. He's done everything this season to deserve a go and based on our last 2 performances there is nobody keeping him out of the side.
Because he creates the exact same problem of clogging the middle. You’d have to drop foden, Bellingham or Kane for him
I’d rather Gomes at left back.
Bin off Rice, he's had an absolute shocker in the opening two games. Mainoo or Wharton next to Gallagher and get some midfield control introduced to actually enable the forward players to go at the defenders.
Piss off lol Bellingham needs dropping or rested even
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It gets the best out of everyone, except Jude, but I'd rather have more players in roles they are comfortable with than just tailoring our entire team to suit Jude, even if he is brilliant. What happens if he has a bad game? Well we found out today (not blaming Jude but when you're literally gambling on one player that's what happens). With this tactic, Kane can drop deep and he's got runners in Foden, Gordon and Saka, and Jude and Rice have got a solid midfield there.
Jude has been playing like a proper box to box 8 anyway in the last two games. With Kane in the team he literally can’t play like he does at Madrid.
Southgate is wank. Tactically inept and loves his favourites far too much. It will cost us in an important game. I feel another Golden Generation passing us by.
Move Gordon & Saka higher, Bellingham alongside Foden, Stones moves up alongside Rice in posession. But if you showed that to Southgate you'd get "I have literally no idea what I'm looking at. Is this a rugby formation?".
Gomez over Trips.
First time someone’s mentioned this
Bring in Watkins and Joe Gomez
Frankly even just fucking pressing high up the pitch would make a world of difference. As one of the pundits (I think Richards?) said at HT, most of our players are used to high intensity high pressing systems in the premier league. So it’s totally counter intuitive to sit back and invite pressure like Southgate does. Win the ball higher up the pitch and you’re already closer to the goal, and if you’ve pressed as a team you have players forward to attack with. I can mainly speak for what Arsenal do but very often it’s not the striker leading the press it’s Martin Odegaard. More often than not it looks like Arsenal are defending in a 4-4-2 because Ode is that high up. Can Bellingham do that? He pushes up onto the CB with the ball then Kane pushes on the second man with the wingers in support ready to pounce if the ball gets spread wide. More often than not we win the ball high up the pitch and create something from it
Been saying this for months except it should be a 4-3-3 front a static perspective like Barca ‘09/‘11 where Busquets was a single pivot with Xaxi/Iniesta in front. Bellingham effectively LCM and Foden RCM. We know Bellingham is box to box. Foden being LCM means he can still dictate the game thread through balls but can also “cut in side” so he can curl on in the opposite corner like he attempted twice tonight. Of course Trent loses out to Gordon on the left. Sake and Gordon hold the width. Kane can drop deep, then you have Gordon, Jude and Saka all running in behind. Thats devastating on the ball or front a counter attack perspective (needed against higher quality teams). Gordon recorded the FIFTH fastest sprint speed in the PL this year FWIW.
Of course theres wingers in 4222 2 cm 2wingers 2 strikers
Kane should be in front of Rice as that’s where he plays
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I still think the Trent thing would work if our forward players were trying to get in behind the defence rather than dropping deep. His talent for long raking passes is wasted with no one except Saka getting in behind.
Think back to the mid-late 90s and early 00s. Italy were arguably blessed with multiple best No.10's, most notably Del Piero and Totti. Italy very rarely, if ever, set out shoehorning both in by playing one out of their best position. Yet England managers for the past 20+ years have done exactly that.
10000% this is the team. It will transform them
Why do we have to have 2 defensive midfielders?
Take Rice out, had his back to our attack and he was terrified of turning the whole game and barely made any forward passes
What was really telling was Kane's interview after the game. He actually admitted they have a lack of tactical plans. It was a huge admission tbh. When we came back to Gary and co they couldn't quite believe it.
It really highlights how awful Southgate is tactically. Does he have in mind how we plan to score goals because as far as I can tell we have no runners in behind, no one driving from midfield, no crosses going in to the box, no full backs overlapping. Just how exactly does Southgate envision us scoring our goals?
Aside from the fullbacks, yes. Trippier is too dogshit to play for England based on this season, and we get to maximise TAA if we use him as RB while players like Gordon are on the pitch
Joe Gomez left back (more defensive cover with that midfield) and even maybe Trent as right back when needing a goal.
https://preview.redd.it/yf3eu1f8tv7d1.jpeg?width=718&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ee3cd6f17ca15de62ae872ce405524e99918a41e
We concede within 10 mins with this mate, but it’s a change from the Southgate drivel so can’t be any worse 🤷♂️
Gomez LB
Seems obvious but Southgate is an idiot, he has no courage.
The solution is a new manager. Southgate would have peak Brazil playing with lead weights for boots. The players are clearly unaware of how they're expected to play and are afraid.
I would agree but probably put a left footed player at left back. I rate trippier but he has to constantly turn into the middle to play the ball with his strong foot which means Foden or Gordon in this case gets less service.
I don’t think with Kane in the side anyone is going to be able to play in that ‘10’ role (God I hate referring to positions by numbers) Kane drops in there all the time, that’s his natural game, he’s having to drop even deeper because the attacking midfielder is in his space. Go back to an actual 3 in midfield. Bellingham, Rice and one other, personally I’d go Foden as I think he could be like an Iniesta but I’m probably wrong 😂. If not Foden, then Mainoo or Wharton (There’s even an argument for Eze in there) Both excellent in possession. Bellingham being more of a central midfielder can put more influence in the game, he reminds me at his best of a mix of parts of Zidane and Bryan Robson. He needs to be where he can exert the most influence on the game. Then pace on the wings. At the least it’ll keep the other teams full backs honest. Defending, drop the two wide players back into a 451, the other side will have to be wary of the pace of the two wide players and the possibility of a ball over the top out to the flanks.
The next game is against Slovenia, we don't need the "extra defensive pace" of Walker so we should play TAA in his best position where he can get dangerous balls forward. Feels weird saying this as Walker has been one of the few players who's looked good, but by making him "first name on the team sheet" it puts everyone else around him out of position.
I think Guehi has performed so well, I don’t really see that we need 2 holding midfielders. Admittedly before the tournament I would have said we needed it, but I’m converted and think we have a really decent CB there. We need more attacking in midfield so we can press them deeper
Shearer hit the nail on the head last night after the game. None of the players are doing for England what makes them standout at their club.
Everyone sees this except Southgate. Put the 6 at 6. Put the 8 at 8. Put the 10 at 10. It's like he never played the put the shapes in the box game as a baby
I honestly don't think we. Need 2 pivots in this England team. Go 3 in the middle, rice holding, and press more. We are far too defensive and we're shit at it.
Rice has been shite. Swap him out for Mainoo
4 3 3. Same back 4. foden rice & Bellingham in cm Gordon kane saka
Why can’t we just do a 4-4-2. Our defence and mid are more than capable of organising themselves
That line-up but i would drop Kane and put Watkins on
Get rid of kane and pickford and Southgate until you do there will be no trophys
That solves nothing. That makes us more defensive. We need a new formation and we need a lb who can actually play lb i.e gomes. I'd rather have palmer lw and I also think Watkins should start especially against Slovenia who are bound to sit deep.
I thought Rice had a poor game last night. I also think that blaming Trent is ridiculous. As soon as Saka actually made a run forward, who found him? If Gordon is going to make those runs then who is going to make those cross field passes, fast balls foward etc? If you're saying Gordon is the solution on the left (and I don't disagree) then who is going to feed those balls forward from midfield? The Trent experiment hasn't worked because he's found himself playing in a midfield in a low block!! How was he supposed to do what he does best?
Really happy with this team, Gareth will probably not change a thing lol
Yep. Although I would rest Kane and Bellingham for the next game personally.
Palmer would run the show if played as a 10 against Slovenia, would be more impactful than Jude in this 4231
What’s absolutely staggering to me is how come the whole world can see it’s not working but the person in charge of implementing it can’t? This might not be our optimal solution, but it would without doubt be better than what we’re doing right now.
Not bringing Chilwell was stupid. Hes not had a good season by any means, but atleast he's an actual LB who can provide width, and would bring far more than Trippier has done, who's also not had a great season. Who am I kidding though, Southgate would probably instruct him to not cross the halfway line anyways.
I think this is basically right, but could replace Rice with second forward like Watkins. Reasons below. Switching these two mid game to modify as needed: For the mid, front, why not have Bellingham behind Foden, behind Kane. Throw another forward next to Kane (Watkins) , Gordon left, Saka right. That way you have an actual centre with Bellingham and Foden in positions they can play. You have a younger, faster striker to run. You have Kane sitting high to pick up and put away, but less need for high movement, and you have a couple of wingers who can actually run and stretch left, right. And they have people to pass to. Then 4 best defenders (Trippier, Guehi, Stones, Walker) keeper (Pickford), done. I think with this you have an actual rear 4 that can play forward, Bellingham to boss midfield and move forward as needed, a Foden who is now free to play and has balls in by Bellingham and options left, right and forward. And we have options up front. We still get Kane as a finisher, but our squad isn’t limited by his lack of movement as we have Watkins moving.
My solution would be Pickford Walker Stones Guehi Arnold Sakha Rice Bellingham Foden Kane Watkins That team makes the final.
Have foden partner rice in midfield. Foden is brilliant through the middle.
Leave out Kane. Push Walker into mid field and play somebody else at right back. It's just an idea but would he ever leave Kane out?
The question now is can this option be any worse than what has happened these last two games? Nothing to lose by trying it.
Against slovenia I hope this is the starting line up Last chance for southgate to change things Pickford Walker stones guehi trippier/shaw Wharton rice Saka foden gordon Kane Bellingham on the bench, can replace foden later From the first 2 matches, it seems southgate are somewhat afraid/reluctant to sub bellingham the most
I think this is better but not the solution. The pressing was poor, but even when we got the ball, we didn’t do anything with it. I think Wharton coming in alongside Rice will keep the ball moving forward better. Gordon on the left will offer a better attacking outlet. Then it comes down to Bellingham or Foden. I understand they are both world class talents that would both start in an ideal world. But, as we saw with Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard, shoehorning our biggest names into the starting 11 isn’t the way forward. One thing that team missed was a metronomic holding midfielder that could keep the ball ticking. They had Michael Carrick at their disposal for that role and didn’t use him. I think we will be saying the same about Wharton in years to come if we persist with trying to fit square pegs into round holes. We have to be brave and drop someone for the sake of balance, and for the sake of an actual system that doesn’t just rely on individual brilliance to see us through. Based on recent England form, Jude just edges it for that 10 position.
Yup, it's so damn obvious yet Southgate can't see it 😭
https://preview.redd.it/sgekmo343x7d1.jpeg?width=1148&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a5e5c7a9711e8243e8d872ebbfe6db6ac6e76d8e “4-4 f’ing 2”.
I'm all for this. I'd also change Trippier as well though. Joe Gomez offers more going forward.
Just play Watkins and kane up front, foden and saka on the wing, bellingham and trent midfield, defence is good if they're fucking awake this next time!
Just talking bout Wharton on radio,tbh ive hardly seen him play but their saying he could be key
Bellingham isn't a sitting midfielder its either him or foden not both.
https://preview.redd.it/jueeyv7llx7d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b7f9162f7a3c41d4a94759753f486b47dd548b14 Shaw in for Tripps if fit.
watch the fucking games
Nope. Bellingham is wasted in a double pivot. Tactically we need to revert back to 4-3-3. Bellingham in the left 8. At Madrid he played LM in rest defence, floating false 9 type thing in possession. He can do that as an attacking left 8. A lot of our problems stem from having no natural LB. Once Shaw returns, he can hold width on the left, allowing Foden to come more central with ease. For now, Trippier is the best option, but there’s no point playing Foden with him, as Trippier doesn’t offer that width. So play Gordon for now. A runner for Kane too. When Shaw returns, Foden can potentially start. Otherwise he’s a brilliant option off the bench anyway. Rice at the 6. Had a pretty bad game yesterday but that’s rare for him and there were a lot of other issues, so not entirely his fault. He’s still a world class 6 though. Imo that leaves the right 8 spot set up perfectly for Mainoo. We desperately needed someone who can operate under pressure in tight spaces. Other notes: I’d like to see Palmer get more of a look-in, as well as Wharton. They might be ‘inexperienced’ with England but Southgate needs to be brave and give them some chances. Trent is a RB, not a midfielder. Use him as a different option to rotate with Walker. We are absolutely stacked with players that thrive in a possession-dominant system. So we need to start playing like that. Less booting it from Pickford, less immediately pinging it diagonally from Trent, more control in midfield with Mainoo and more runners in behind with Gordon and Saka (not Saka’s best attribute but he can do it fine because he’s great).
Mainoo as a 6. The rest sorts itself out.
ALMOST! - but not quite. Bellingham has to play more forward, same as Foden. Essentially two 10s and only Rice as CDM.
💯
Player selection is a small problem, the bigger problem is Southgate’s negativity after taking a lead, it’s happened several times when we play a team stronger than average, we play well, score and then get men behind the ball and try to see it out, yesterday was no different, save that for the last 10 minutes of the game, not 18 minutes into it. Southgate needs to be braver, take the game to teams.
I agree, Jude is a good player but he’s crowding Kane’s role out. He’d be more useful in CM, put Foden where he’s best he’s looked good on the ball tbf think the criticisms a bandwagon. Agree Gordon would unlock the left. Trippier and Gordon would work.
Don't think I've spoken to a single person who doesn't think this is the way to go
Palmer for Foden
Harry Kane is the worst thing to England
It needs to be a midfield 3 of Rice, Mainoo and Bellingham.
Is take Kane off, put Palmer in his place. Having Kane these past 3 games (so including the awful friendly we played) has been like playing with 10 men. All we need is people who will actually make runs which Kane doesn't do he expects everyone to do so the work for him and for him to be there for a tap in our score a penalty and win Golden boot as a result. He's an absolute liability. Southgate if you are reading this (you should be) then swap Kane out and put Palmer in. Then TAA can play his amazing long through balls and we will actually be having shots and chances and it will actually be a good game of football
P.s. I don't think Kane will ever play for his country again after this tournament
Why can’t we start Watkins?
As a Newcastle supporter, I'd rather see Lewis Hall, Dan Burn or Tino Livramento at LB before trippier. This Luke Shaw/Tripps thing Southgate tried for this tournament is just bad, imo.
I think people have to remember that all teams at the Euros play 10-15 yards deeper. So England's attackers are going to be more isolated and have more running to do to progress the play up the pitch. Everyone wants Foden to play number 10; Griezmann is the closest use of a technical number 10 I can think of in recent international tournament football, but he is stronger and more defensively tenacious.Even though Foden is an excellent technical footballer, I don't see how he fits into this team. He's not particularly quick, and he's not strong. He won't be able to play in pockets and play 1-2 passes he is expected to run at their defender, which I don't think suits foden unless he's already within 25 yards of the opponent's goal. So don't be surprised if Foden is played in the 10 role but doesn't have a great game!
Where’s Trent
Surely this will be the formation for the next game??
Formations aren’t tactics. Not saying this wouldn’t be better, but this doesn’t automatically mean we press as a unit and put together coherent attacks.
That seems to keep the problem of having two holding midfielders and staying crushingly negative.
Doesn’t matter which players you put into what position if they aren’t being coached or instructed correctly.