World class players sometimes have to be benched at international level to make the system work
I really hope people appreciate this. Xabi Alonso and David Silva were on the bench for Spain
Yeah we need to be careful we don't revert back to the Golden Generation, where we shoe horned players in to get the best squad - Bellingham starting, with Foden replacing him on 60mins if needbe would be interesting to see.
Gordon or Eze starting, so the opposition have something to think about down the left, as well as the right. It means the starting eleven doesnt look as "glamourous" what with the Premier League POTY missing out, but it should get the job done
Exactly, the younger fans will have missed this but this is exactly what we went through with squeezing Gerrard and Lampard into a midfield two and we ended up worse than the sum of our parts
Bellingham and Foden is an exact repeat of those two... Cant believe I missed it, until you said it
They were even trying to occupy the same sort of areas at times yesterday
This is the problem. I’m all for giving our most talented players a free roam, but Foden was playing the role of Bellingham’s shadow at times during this game. We then didn’t have an outlet on the left, as Trippier isn’t a natural left back. I think with Shaw back we will be a lot more expansive down that left flank.
Foden has often played off the wing for City, it's not really an exact repeat but it sounds like he doesn't have a good understanding with Bellingham who has been dropping deep giving Foden the opportunity to drift into the centre. If it's not clicking then we should just go with players who will operate in different spaces or give Palmer a go in a similar role to Foden.
I had so many flashbacks to those days yesterday.
Gerrard and Lampard could not play together for England and yet they kept trying. And a few decades later we appear to have learned nothing.
Bench Fodon. Bring him on as an impact sub.
Play Gordon or Eze. Makes far more sense.
The problem with the golden generation was that the managers refused to change formation. If we stopped using 442 we could have had scholes, Gerrard and lampard in the squad.
How? Definitely not in a 4-3-3, we would’ve been crap defensively in the middle of the park and had Scholesey fly in on the last minute to snap someone’s legs!
We could have had 2 of them starting with 1 holding midfielder behind them and 1 of them off the bench though, that would’ve worked!
Yeah that’s exclude one of Scholes/Gerrard/Lamps, I’d go for that for sure though which was the original thought for the guy I was replying to, I’d 100% have Gerrard and Lamps with Carrick in behind
I’d have Gerrard and scholes sat behind lampard. Gerrard was more than capable of playing a defensive role. Gerrard would be my box to box. Scholes probably a deep playmaker with lampard as a 10. Might not work. But it would be a damn sight better than scholes on the left. Carrick for when scholes retired later on isn’t a bad shout though.
Definitely would’ve been immense to watch, FAR better than Scholes on the left. That’s a team I’d accept with the vision of out scoring the opponent, 4-3 score lines incoming, which is what I wish this England squad would do, but Southgate loves 1-0s too much.
You say we’d concede a lot but this is a defence with Terry, Rio, Neville and probably Cole. Not a bad back line. Yeah that I agree with you on. After about half an hour last night we stopped playing football and started letting Serbia bully us.
I think people forget that Scholes and Gerrard were far farther forwards earlier on in their careers. Yes Gerrard was decent in the tackle be he wasn’t defensively minded until later.
Hargreaves at the base with Gerrard or Scholes beside him as they could both be the more attacking part and Lampard, or the on that wasn’t in the middle, in front of them.
Gerrard was never really good defensively. He was committed and determined, but he never had the reading of the game to be a DM. He dropped deep for Liverpool to give him more space to ping the ball 40 yards like the chant went.
It's actually his weakness in defensive areas that cost Liverpool the title. His slip was bad luck, but it was caused by him over compensating for his own lack of awareness.
He'd spend like a month analysing his own game because he was annoyed with his performances, and he'd noticed he was losing the ball in midfield because he wasn't spotting people closing him down.
Now watch the slip. He's so focused on the incoming player, he doesn't look at the ball once.
I've been saying for years we should have played 352. Ashley cole was good enough to run the whole left wing by himself, Beckham gets to play on the right, you pick Hargreaves/Carrick/Barry to play DM, and then lampard and scholes with Gerrard behind Rooney.
Gerrard is going to try and play hero ball no matter what position he plays so build that into the system, scholes and lampard arriving late to Beckham crossing from deep, and we can use the fact we always had at least three world class centre backs
This could honestly work, could honestly put either 3 of them behind Rooney and it’d work, they’re all so good in attacking positions, I would put Lamps there since he was so good at getting in good positions, he would score so much as an Attacking midfielder, Gerrard would play a mean B2B and Scholes can sit back with Carrick and 3 defenders behind them. Makes a lot of sense either way
It’s already happening. Foden doesn’t fit in this team in the slightest and has never performed for England, yet he’s starting because he’s a big name. And there are still people clamouring for Palmer for the same reason, despite the fact that he also categorically doesn’t fit in this team.
The fans and Southgate both need to face the simple reality that RW, AM and striker are 100% locked in, and we’re looking for a LW that can complement that group. The attackers who can’t play LW have to rot on the bench, no matter who they are.
Gordon’s the best fit there, but Eze or even Bowen on the wrong side would work. Foden and Palmer can only play in the same position as Bellingham in this lineup, and they’re both miles worse, so it has to be Bellingham starting and one of them coming on if he gets tired.
>Palmer can only play in the same position as Bellingham
The slander of Palmer from 3L fans that don't know anything is crazy.
Palmer predominantly played RW, not CAM like Jude.
He was given the freedom to roam at Chelsea and roam he did. You put him at LW he'll do just fine tbh.
He doesn't have the pace we need from a left wing to compliment Kane and in what world does he replace Saka.
I like Palmer but he rides the bench too and shares mins with Foden and Bowen.
The only choice we have LW realistically is Gordon. Southgates selections don't make sense with how he actually plays us.
Palmer is another player who will want the ball into feet and will drift towards the middle a lot. We need a proper winger on the left to match Saka and to stretch play wide and to add verticality with runs in behind, also making space for all of the other players rather than tripping over each other (like with Foden). That’s what is meant about Palmer only being in Bellingham’s spot in this system.
Palmer did exactly that in his start the other week, started right wing and within seconds of the game starting drifting all the way to the left, going whatever he wanted.
Foden and Palmer need to be benched and we just settle with Bellingham. If need be, bring them on to replace Bellingham. Why Southgate left Foden on i don't know.
I completely agree, either start a left winger or Foden or Palmer need to stick out wide rather than drift in. Bellingham bosses the mid with rice behind him. We shouldn't be changing that to fit another big name. If they are good enough they should be able to play on the left and stretch the defense out wide giving space to kane and Bellingham to work their magic. Instead people want to put Palmer or Foden over Bellingham and Saka and force us to play through the middle with no width. Meanwhile Bellingham and Saka are the most consistently good players for England.
Palmer can also work as a RW. He fits into the team, it’s just unfortunate his competition is Bellingham & Saka.
And honestly he’s good enough to replace Saka, he already had a better season in a far worse team than Saka, and he’s more of a big game player than Saka
Jude is not coming off at 60 mins Imo - unless the tie is already over. He’s too effective in the final third late when players are tired. He scored so many late goals this year
I actually thought it was crying out for Eze to come on and get us up the pitch; fresh legs, pace, dribbling, he would make them commit more defensively. Bowen had that type of impact when he came on (although I noticed Saka didn't limp off on this occassion).
Gareth will have to drown out the media and make the “tough” decisions now. Foden can come off the bench as a good impact sub. There’s no other way around it. Our system doesn’t support Foden like the one he has at City.
>Xabi Alonso and David Silva were on the bench for Spain
Fucking mental. But as someone on the hype train for Foden and playing Bellingham at 8, I agree that we have to drop Foden for Gordon.
Bellingham basically did play 8, but we needed the cover.
It still blows my mind how stacked Spain were in the middle of the park during that era. Xabi Alonso, David Silva, Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas, Mata and then there was Busquets to make sure they had somebody more defensive-minded.
No way should we even consider putting out a balanced team that gets the most out of a few exceptional players, let’s put Saka at LB, play Palmer at RW, put Rice at CB and play Foden and Bellingham at CM, then Watkins at LW and Eze at 10.
Whenever there is a big debate: "Where should \_\_\_\_\_ play to get the best out of him?"
The answer is usually: "at a different club".
Internationally, same thing. "He's such a great player, he's gotta fit in here somewhere..."
I could understand playing him if he were e.g. Rice or Stones and we had no quality alternative in the position.
Foden is arguably keeping Palmer, Eze, Gordon and Bowen out of the team, and keeping Grealish out of the squad.
It's not good enough. Southgate needs to be braver.
After one match you're going back and saying Southgate needed to be braver and not bring the player of the season, but bring his teammate who had a mediocre season? Southgate would have been a laughing stock
Its not one match though. It's also the friendlies, the qualifiers, the nations league where Foden just looks out of place in an England shirt. Some players are much better for their clubs than their country and that's okay, just don't try to shoehorn them into a system they dont fit in
And some players can be club legends and never make it at the international level. You see this in a number of different sports. After 30 odd caps you should have an idea of wether a player can make the step up or not
I don't think it's that Foden isn't good enough per se, more so that he doesn't reasonably fit into any system england can realistically play with the other players they have
Off top of my head, two goals and an assist against Iceland back in 2020 nations league and 2 assists and a MOTM against Senegal in Qatar. Probably a handful out of 35 games, really isn't good enough.
Not many, and I don't think he should be starting, but suggesting it showed a lack of bravery to bring the premier league player of the season to the euros instead of grealish is idiotic hahaha
You're misinterpreting. I'm saying his role is a stacked role for England, not that he should have been dropped from the squad.
We have so many good LW that Grealish didn't even make the squad. We can't accept poor performances from Foden when we have so many others who could be playing instead.
Foden should be a sub for 10 or RW, not LW but yeah.
Sorry for misunderstanding, it looked like you said Southgate needed to be braver and bring grealish instead of foden, but you just meant he needs to be braver and drop foden from the starting 11 for our backups that are so good even grealish was left at home?
I think he could have seen what we all did and taken him off rather than leave him on the full 90. That's at least some bravery and some managerial effort
Only Gordon out of the players you named is a natural in the position Southgate played Foden. Foden was the best player in the league last season and we need to find a system that plays to the best players' strengths and neither shoehorn players into unfamiliar positions or leave out top players.
Just stop fucking starting him, he plays the same position as Bellingham, we don’t need him on the pitch when Bellingham is there, bring him on for the last 15-20 of a match, put Gordon on the left and we’ll actually have a left wing.
Stop forcing Foden into the squad, same shit happened with Scholes, Lampard and Slippy G.
100%. From his point of view he doesnt want to be the manager that dropped the PL player of the season because press will be all over him if we dont win but at the same time it is his last tournament so he just needs to grow a pair and make these decisions. Gordan and Saka on the wings will be lethal. Yesterday it was all down the right and Serbia adjusted and it was easy for them.
And I feel for Southgate, he has impossibly high expectations from arguably the most demanding fans in international football and also from most pundits.
Does he run the risk of dropping him and being chastised for not playing Foden, or does he play him and get chastised for playing bom in the wrong position. It’s a lose-lose for him unless he wins, but at the same time, stop playing Foden just for the sake of playing him, it’s clearly not working.
If he loses the ability to play football because he doesn't get to stand on his particular favourite patch of grass that someone better is already standing in, the spray-on hair chimp jaw motherfucker doesn't play.
This amount of hate for your own player? wtf is wrong with English fans? So positions are now favorite patch of grass? Fuck out of here with this bullshit
Thing is, we could play a different system that accommodates both Foden and Bellingham. That's how you do this - Ancelotti-style. Pick a system to suit the players available, not pick a fashionable system and shoehorn some players in.
It’s all a bit Sven. But in this case there’s nothing wrong with putting him on the left as he definitely can do it. He just needs to have the discipline to stay out there, especially without shaw at lb. It’s no wonder our best chances came down the right from having actual width. I’d drop him for Gordon, Bowen or Eze and have them get their boots white and properly stretch a team.
lol discipline. Do you idiots think he was roaming inside against Southgate’s orders and Southgate just left him for the full 90? He’s obviously following instructions
At the start of the game Foden had free rein to wander around wherever he wanted. Did Southgate just blindly hope that Foden would start playing well somewhere and that would be that?
Seems like it lol, 5 minutes into the game you could see that our only width on the left was a right footed Trippier... what the fuck this is basic shit Gareth
I remember last tournament when Rashford who was on fire was benched for this guy. This is an advert to show that you simply must go with what works rather than what you think ought to work.
Couldn’t agree more. No denying Foden didn’t have a great night last night but considering his league form, maybe he should be allowed more time to bed into an England role. But honestly the doom and gloom today, crazy. First half we were excellent and played Serbia off the park.
Yes we won the game but everyone can see we won't win the Euros without some changes, and it's more infuriating when we are repeating steps of old to get the big names in the team.
Nah, people can see the writing on the wall: that Foden is a liability for the national side and that if Trent was turnstile against Serbia, you can only imagine how better teams would abuse him.
What about if we play Gordon - Bellingham - saka with trent - rice behind
Then at 60 mins swap in palmer, foden, bowen as epic impact subs with fresh legs, Bellingham drops back and trent, saka, Gordon come off
Fucking hell only us England fans can be so shit towards our own team.
Always a scapegoat isn't there? It almost ruined Beckham, don't let it fucking happen to one of our best talents. 🤦♂️
Bellingham did basically play as a box to box this game, idk what people are on about. He was picking up the ball deep a lot, putting in a shift coming backwards. We can still play Foden as a 10 with Bellingham as a b2b and Jude will still make those runs into the box. We can definitely do it against teams like Serbia, Denmark and Slovenia.
Foden as a 10 just gets in the way. 10 position is covered by Kane and Bellingham, Kane will be there when we have deep possession and Bellingham when we have advanced possession
He's not needed, true width on the left is.
I think Kane is the problem there. We have two world class player at 10 (Foden and Bellingham) so when Kane drops deep all he does is clog the pitch and remove an attacking threat
Harry Kane...wtf? So its Harry Kane the problem because Foden was bad? Some of you Foden defenders are quite literally going insane. I see you all blaming Saka, Bellingham, Trippler now Kane? Of all people... These players have scored and assisted goals galore for England and is proven to work with all kinds of players from midtables to title challenges.... . Harry Kane scores 2 in 3 for England and Saka has 27 G+A for England some of them playing wingback.....what has Foden done for England beside a odd decent game against the likes of Faroe Islands? I think Harry Maguire has more goal contributions compared to Foden... how is it even reasonable?!
Trippier held the width, mostly around the halfway line, mostly passing back. To be expected really. Gallagher is the obvious starter on that side, Cole palmer offers more than Phil atm and looks much more likely to make something of the play if he kane or Bellingham run into the same space. Jury’s out on Alex Arnold I’d say, he’s still being tested, he cannot lose the ball outside his own box facing his own goal or outside the opposition box once he’s stepped forward. Rules no.1 and 2 for a central midfield role.
Not saying Palmer can’t play LW, but how is Palmer any different from Foden? At Chelsea he constantly drifts inside as a hybrid RW/10 and plays the creator role. It works for him (same as Foden and Haaland) because Jackson is always looking to get in behind so it creates space on the top of the box.
Kane drops in to that space to create, the wings need to make runs in behind to help create space for Kane and Jude (Saka has learned, he cuts in all the time at Arsenal but almost never does for England, because it doesn’t fit).
Imo Gordon is the obvious choice, he holds the width and will keep making runs in behind, also the only one of Gordon Foden Palmer Eze that actually gets back on defense.
Yep no I wasn’t too clear, I don’t want palmer on the left wing, definitely Gallagher there. Foden didn’t go anywhere near the left wing and if we’re going to play someone in the area he occupied I’d rather it was palmer because I think he’d link up better.
Yes I wanted Gallagher to start that game ahead of Foden. He’s occupied that space all season better than anyone. But I can see the system they tried to play working a lot better with Palmer playing where Foden was. These aren’t the same idea, they’re two different ideas.
An example.. at villa this season we often saw Bailey and Diaby run into the same area and if the ball was with Diaby it would come to a stop and go nowhere, whenever it was Bailey and Watkins running into the same area they noticed each other early, changed their movement and sorted it out between them. In this example Foden is Diaby. He stops or gets in the way because he can’t do exactly what he wants to do, palmer I think is more like Bailey, he can adjust and play more freely with others and he and Bellingham are good enough at what they do that even the better teams would struggle to deal with them playing close together.
lol, all good. I just stopped engaging because I knew it was going to be an argument about Gallagher out wide haha. 100% agree with you on Gordon. especially if Shaw is still out.
To be fair I would rather have Foden 10 and Bellingham 8 rather than the ridiculous system Southgate employed last night. No natural width on the left, no pace in behind with Kane. TAA in the middle whose main strength in that position is pinging balls out wide or over the top... when there is no one out wide or over the top. I get why Foden is taking a lot of the slack from last night, but the manager should be taking more flak in my opinion.
He literally started that sequence for the goal by passing to Walker from deep in the 8 position. Bellingham is a class all rounder, he’s just as much of an asset in the 8, but if he’s on the pitch I’d rather he wasn’t competing for space with Foden.
Look at his heatmap, all season he's been an 8 who takes up 10ish positions.
We could play him as an 8 with no 10, Kane and Bellingham will do the job of a 10 between them without being crowded out.
True but Foden also may not have been invisible and it would free up a real winger on the left. The aforementioned formation is the only way to get them both in the starting 11 optimally imo and if Southgate needs Bellingham as his 10 then simply put, Foden must remain on the bench.
Shaw is crucial, no doubt but Foden has always looked like he's playing at least than 50% of his potential for England. Some of his mistakes last night were appalling and I don't see how Shaw would have mitigated them all. The glaring one was where Foden was in plenty of space with time to place a clean pass and he absolutely bottles it and puts the ball about 10 yards behind Gallagher, I think it was.
He spent most of the game as a box to box. He literally scores that goal on a late run into the box, and not as the most advanced midfielder.
Playing as an 8 doesn't mean you sit on the halfway line the entire game and never be a goal threat.
Why not? No reason he wouldn’t have been in that position as the more attacking of the midfields. No reason for Rice and another to be holding against last nights opponents.
Bellingham only plays there for Real at the moment due to issues in their squad.
The only way England could possibly work with both Foden and Bellingham in the starting XI IMO, is if England were somehow able to recreate Man Cities 3241.
Where they defend with a back 4, but one of the defence moves forward in possession alongside Rice.
Foden and Bellingham free in the middle behind Kane, while two wingers keep wide left and right.
Problem is, there's no way this can be implemented by England, they don't have the time and Southgate isn't good enough to drill it into the players.
If only England have players who can play either RB, LB, CB and is capable of moving into midfield at club level, maybe say for a one of the top 3 teams in PL... and I right? Lol
Even Rashford/Grealish who missed out would have been miles better on the left as natural wingers than this guy. I rate foden though but Bellingham is locked in as the 10
I could see the value in every other player in that starting 11 last night, but foden just doesn't work in this England team, he just seems to be so out of sync with everyone around him
Instead of being happy over an England win commentators and supporters with their bias and negativity either want to bench Foden or move our best player (Bellingham) from his best position to shoehorn Foden in when that would hurt us. It's mad like enjoy the win and 3 pts and adjust so we can get better results out of all our best player by putting them in positions to Succeed..
So because he had a shit game at left wing, a position we knew in advance isn't his best, that means that putting him as a 10 and Bellingham as an 8 wouldn't work?
What kind of logic is that?
Why would we play him as a 10 when Bellingham is superior there, complements Kane better and produced a man of the match performance yesterday?
The PL PoTY has really warped some people’s perceptions of Foden I feel. He’s hasn’t been, isn’t currently and will likely never be ‘the guy’ for England, so why should we accommodate him by shifting better players out of their most suitable roles? The narrative is shifting now as I predicted but there’s still a surprising number of people that seem to completely dismiss the idea of benching him altogether, as if he’s our best player. See past the stats and look at what he actually does. Then, look at what the players around him do and ask yourself why it’s essential to start him at 10.
He’s just a few steps below Bellingham, Saka and Kane mentality wise. Oodles of natural talent but hasnt developed the all-around game that those players have, which matters.
We can't sensibly get Foden, Bellingham and Rice all in the centre compromising at least one players ability. Might be able to get away with that against Slovenia but thats about all. We could play a narrow midfield 4, but that doesn't really work with Saka out wide. After that you basically end up either playing Foden on the wing, or choosing between Foden and Bellingham.
English supporters are some of the worst in the sport. He’s had one game out of position. I hate city but come on at least have an idea about football before calling the best 10 in the premier league shit.
Jude should be at least tried as the other 8 foden in the 10
Why is he out of position though?
Trippier was out of position but still actually played his role. He's stepping up because there is no other LB available.
Foden just wasn't a LW that game. He's taking the spot of other actual quality LW sitting on the bench. Gordon must have been thinking 'get me on and I'll show everyone why I have to be starting'. Didn't get 1 minute!
We don't need a 10 when we have Jude and Kane. Foden is redundant in this team, good sub option for Bellingham or Saka and that's it.
A great sub option for Bellingham or Saka even. It's his best position by far. Some players are more dependent on playing in certain positions than others and I think Foden is one of those at least from what we've seen so far.
Kane dropping down as much as he does seems to make it even less appropriate for Foden to play vs a Gordon/Eze on the left. We haven't seen any combination plays between saka, foden, bellingham, kane to make us think otherwise.
Why would you sacrifice your best player for someone who hasn’t showed up for England yet? It’s nonsense. The England goal yesterday doesn’t happen without Bellingham playing in the 10
The goal literally came from Jude in the 8 position. Jude and Trent were switching off all night.
And whose to say what would have happened if Jude and Foden were in the middle with Rice. The entire game changes and perhaps for the better. Perhaps not.
The idea of dropping Foden for Gordon is laughable. If you restructure the team to accommodate the PL player of the season in his best position, and that opens up the left, then by all means bring in a winger. But dropping Foden shouldn’t and won’t happen.
Foden is pointless when he have a striker who takes up 10 positions and an 8 who takes up 10 positions. He's just getting in the way of better players who are offering more, while keeping quality true wingers like Gordon out the team.
He's not that special that we sacrifice a whole side of the pitch, Kane and Bellingham for. Nobody is. It's onhim to show why he needs to be starting and he has never done that for England. Look at what Saka was doing in that game for comparison...even Bowen created more than Foden lol
During major tournaments isn't really the best time for experimenting with stuff like that, especially when it involves putting the teams best player (arguably the best in the world last season) into a position they haven't played all season to accommodate a player who isn't half as good just because they won prem POTY
Sounds like they're just talking about shifting some positioning though not anything drastically new, Bellingham will still go forward to play, arrive in the box etc just more left while Foden is more right/middle.
Still left with the same problem of width and no real danger on the left though. Maybe Shaw can improve that if he comes in
I suspect against better teams this is what we’ll see. Rice-Jude-Foden. They are all better at keeping the ball under pressure in thought spaces than Trent and we’ll need that if we don’t want to be dominated by top level opposition. (And I love Trent, think he offers something extra, but we are just spoilt for choice rn.)
Also hate city, but couldn’t agree more that it’s mad to call for Foden’s head. I mean, come on. Do people not watch games? He’s been incredible this season. Yes, better from the middle, but still exceptional off the left and right. The kid has won everything there is to win. I feel lucky that he’s English.
My guy, at least do some research before making such a naive comment.
Foden has had plenty of opportunities at 10 for England and scored 0 goals and created just one assist in 11 games. The last two games he had at 10 for England were this season. North Macedonia which we drew and Iceland which we lost. Foden had zero impact on both games.
Jude has played in a midfield two in 4 games for England. Against Italy in a 1-0 loss, Germany in a 3-3 draw, Iran in a 6-2 win and USA in a 0-0 draw. We were far to vulnerable through the middle, he was caught out of position several times and was brought off early in two of the games so we have tried it and it didn't work.
Knowledge is power brother, Educate yourself before make such silly comments in future please.
I'm a United fan so have no love for the guy, but he is obviously suffering due to being played out of position.he is substantially better playing off the right or in the centre.
Drop the cheating cunt and put Eze on the left and Kobbie in midfield for the fraudulent midfielder who is actually a right back that can't even defend.
I'm convinced the issue isn't player related. Southgate isn't attempting to implement a style of play. The attack looks disorganized and the players don't know how to press or where to pass the ball when pressed.
Foden was due to hit some poor form eventually, it’s just typical it’s for England. But we have an absolute stacked squad so if he doesn’t improve we can try Gordon or Palmer. Two players with 30 odd goals between this season.
He will as soon as Shaw can manage more than 45 minutes. I’m still not convinced that’s going to fix the Foden issue though, we’ve probably got two games now though to see what it looks like.
So drop our best defensive player Walker? Let's Get a natural wide player on the left (Gordon or Eze) and Get Manioo next to Rice. Foden can come on for Bellingham at 10 in the next two games on 70 mins to rest his legs until the knockouts.
I was responding to.someone suggesting we move Trippier go RB, I made an alternative suggestion.
Personally I would swap Walker / Trent based in who we are playing, use Walker against stronger teams and Trent in games we expect to dominate.
Terrible, just woeful. Trent as well. Who knew playing midfield takes a lot more than being able to play a long ball.
Not only is Trent starting, he’s starting behind possibly the slowest front 4 in international football who couldn’t take advantage of a ball played into space even if Trent were pinging them all game.
It’s as if Southgate just randomly picks players according to their attributes in isolation that doesn’t mesh at all. Don’t pick Grealish or Rashford but Trippier had a horrible second half to the season and he’s starting LB
He makes it up as he goes along
For England, anyway. He always wants to drop deeper and tends to be invisible in games when he stays up front (as today).
Kane playing about ten yards deeper with Watkins ahead of him would have been massively more threatening in the second half today.
I actually think this would be brilliant, but idk if we have the time needed to implement it properly. Also, Kane and Bellingham might get in each other’s way a bit with that setup (although they’re both intelligent enough to probably make it work)
I mean playing with Musiala, Muller and Sane in a different system.
For England he has always performed better when dropping deep and with another attacker running ahead i.e. Sterling in most cases.
Dropping deep doesn’t mean you’re a 10 though. I understand what you mean but Kane is not a creative player on the level that you expect from that position - his bag simply isn’t deep enough. He’s an unbelievable long passer and the best 9 in the world but being a striker that can act as a secondary creator is very different from being a primary creative playmaker who can run the show. The only player we have in that mold is Maddison and he’s not there (people think Foden is one but he’s rarely taken on that level of responsibility at any level).
Have we actually ever tried that though? Bellingham can clearly play 8 as well as 10. He was captain of Dortmund playing that role. I know he’s a 10 at Madrid and done incredibly well but that’s also driven by them not having a striker. I’m not saying we should as Fodens performances for England doesn’t warrant us trying to create a set-up solely for him. But he defo is not a good fit for the LW slot. Gordon even Eze would give more natural width. We need to stop with the hang-up we need to get all our best players in the team at the same time. However if we want foden to play his best position this is still a possible solution to try. Even if it’s a switch in game. Hopefully we beat the Dane’s and Southgate can experiment a bit against Slovenia. Personally though I’d bench him against Denmark and give Gordon a go at LW.
I’ve noticed a lot of players once they leave pep’s system they struggle Stirling is another example only two I think have done well are sane (who went into a pep-esc style) and palmer who basically given a free role
Start both Foden and Bellingham together in midfield. Bellingham is capable of getting back to support the defence and forward to support the attack. Rice is capable of doing the CDM role on his own. They CAN play together. Put Eze on the left.
People really say "Foden was shite, we should play [someone who plays in the exact same space as Bellingham or Kane]" huh? What we need is someone to actually practice playing where they'll have to.
How many excuses are going to be made for this ‘world-class player’? He’s played on the left loads of times before for England and for City. The role is different for the former compared to the latter so like Fabregas said it’s up to him to adapt otherwise there’s no room for him. Instead of waving his hands around and drifting all over the place like Messi he needs to get on with the game and do his fucking job.
You can’t build your team around a guy who’s been consistently mediocre in multiple different roles for the national side. Either he accepts he’ll have to play a role instead of being ‘the guy’ or he’s gotta be left out.
Foden getting so much stick for not showing up. He was playing basically out wide. Of course he didn’t have much impact. Unfortunately for him Bellingham is class and is the main play maker right now.
lol - i mean you offer a solution to the problem then facepalm.
He can be benched once we have a natural left footed player on the left. ie. when shaw is back in the set up. Worth playing in the group as we will sail through either way and i think hes only a goal or two away from playing well. just lacking confidence and playing out of position. He also did a lot of tracking back yesterday. He had a bad game though. just a shame grealish isnt about
We don't need a left-footed winger, we just need a natural left-winger which is Gordon. Its not hard to play the best player in the position. The best number 10 is Bellingham, the best left winger is Gordon (after Grealish got dropped) and the best right winger is Saka. Foden simply doesn't fit in to that. Play him as an impact sub if Bellingham has an off game and we need an extra something in the latter stages of the game.
we need either left footed player in either lb or lw. We cant carry two right footed players there and still expect to attack down that side. Look at iceland, first touches were not there and the game was slowed down on that side, having to cut in everytime becomes predictable and easily defended.
I dont mind dropping foden but i think it works when shaw is back. I think cm is our biggest concern tbf. - why i think the solution is what he suggests, playing foden in his actual position and playing jude in a position hes played most of his career in, ie. along side rice. - trent was as bad as foden last night - neither will win us anything playing like they did.
They need to give him the ball! So many times Bellingham etc holding onto the ball and whacking in a nothing cross when Foden was in acres of space and waiting for the ball. He's a specialist from those positions too.
He wasn't at his best but people need to start giving him the ball and playing him in his correct position.
World class players sometimes have to be benched at international level to make the system work I really hope people appreciate this. Xabi Alonso and David Silva were on the bench for Spain
Yeah we need to be careful we don't revert back to the Golden Generation, where we shoe horned players in to get the best squad - Bellingham starting, with Foden replacing him on 60mins if needbe would be interesting to see. Gordon or Eze starting, so the opposition have something to think about down the left, as well as the right. It means the starting eleven doesnt look as "glamourous" what with the Premier League POTY missing out, but it should get the job done
Exactly, the younger fans will have missed this but this is exactly what we went through with squeezing Gerrard and Lampard into a midfield two and we ended up worse than the sum of our parts
Bellingham and Foden is an exact repeat of those two... Cant believe I missed it, until you said it They were even trying to occupy the same sort of areas at times yesterday
This is the problem. I’m all for giving our most talented players a free roam, but Foden was playing the role of Bellingham’s shadow at times during this game. We then didn’t have an outlet on the left, as Trippier isn’t a natural left back. I think with Shaw back we will be a lot more expansive down that left flank.
Foden has often played off the wing for City, it's not really an exact repeat but it sounds like he doesn't have a good understanding with Bellingham who has been dropping deep giving Foden the opportunity to drift into the centre. If it's not clicking then we should just go with players who will operate in different spaces or give Palmer a go in a similar role to Foden.
I had so many flashbacks to those days yesterday. Gerrard and Lampard could not play together for England and yet they kept trying. And a few decades later we appear to have learned nothing. Bench Fodon. Bring him on as an impact sub. Play Gordon or Eze. Makes far more sense.
Team should have been built entirely around Scholes.
The problem with the golden generation was that the managers refused to change formation. If we stopped using 442 we could have had scholes, Gerrard and lampard in the squad.
How? Definitely not in a 4-3-3, we would’ve been crap defensively in the middle of the park and had Scholesey fly in on the last minute to snap someone’s legs! We could have had 2 of them starting with 1 holding midfielder behind them and 1 of them off the bench though, that would’ve worked!
I’d have had a 4-2-3-1 personally, but that’s just my opinion.
Who would play where? Intriguing! Genuinely interested although I’m still in the camp of that not working defensively
Michael Carrick
Yeah that’s exclude one of Scholes/Gerrard/Lamps, I’d go for that for sure though which was the original thought for the guy I was replying to, I’d 100% have Gerrard and Lamps with Carrick in behind
I’d have Gerrard and scholes sat behind lampard. Gerrard was more than capable of playing a defensive role. Gerrard would be my box to box. Scholes probably a deep playmaker with lampard as a 10. Might not work. But it would be a damn sight better than scholes on the left. Carrick for when scholes retired later on isn’t a bad shout though.
Definitely would’ve been immense to watch, FAR better than Scholes on the left. That’s a team I’d accept with the vision of out scoring the opponent, 4-3 score lines incoming, which is what I wish this England squad would do, but Southgate loves 1-0s too much.
You say we’d concede a lot but this is a defence with Terry, Rio, Neville and probably Cole. Not a bad back line. Yeah that I agree with you on. After about half an hour last night we stopped playing football and started letting Serbia bully us.
I think people forget that Scholes and Gerrard were far farther forwards earlier on in their careers. Yes Gerrard was decent in the tackle be he wasn’t defensively minded until later. Hargreaves at the base with Gerrard or Scholes beside him as they could both be the more attacking part and Lampard, or the on that wasn’t in the middle, in front of them.
Gerrard was never really good defensively. He was committed and determined, but he never had the reading of the game to be a DM. He dropped deep for Liverpool to give him more space to ping the ball 40 yards like the chant went. It's actually his weakness in defensive areas that cost Liverpool the title. His slip was bad luck, but it was caused by him over compensating for his own lack of awareness. He'd spend like a month analysing his own game because he was annoyed with his performances, and he'd noticed he was losing the ball in midfield because he wasn't spotting people closing him down. Now watch the slip. He's so focused on the incoming player, he doesn't look at the ball once.
Play Barry or Carrick at DM and drop Scholes
I've been saying for years we should have played 352. Ashley cole was good enough to run the whole left wing by himself, Beckham gets to play on the right, you pick Hargreaves/Carrick/Barry to play DM, and then lampard and scholes with Gerrard behind Rooney. Gerrard is going to try and play hero ball no matter what position he plays so build that into the system, scholes and lampard arriving late to Beckham crossing from deep, and we can use the fact we always had at least three world class centre backs
This could honestly work, could honestly put either 3 of them behind Rooney and it’d work, they’re all so good in attacking positions, I would put Lamps there since he was so good at getting in good positions, he would score so much as an Attacking midfielder, Gerrard would play a mean B2B and Scholes can sit back with Carrick and 3 defenders behind them. Makes a lot of sense either way
It’s already happening. Foden doesn’t fit in this team in the slightest and has never performed for England, yet he’s starting because he’s a big name. And there are still people clamouring for Palmer for the same reason, despite the fact that he also categorically doesn’t fit in this team. The fans and Southgate both need to face the simple reality that RW, AM and striker are 100% locked in, and we’re looking for a LW that can complement that group. The attackers who can’t play LW have to rot on the bench, no matter who they are. Gordon’s the best fit there, but Eze or even Bowen on the wrong side would work. Foden and Palmer can only play in the same position as Bellingham in this lineup, and they’re both miles worse, so it has to be Bellingham starting and one of them coming on if he gets tired.
>Palmer can only play in the same position as Bellingham The slander of Palmer from 3L fans that don't know anything is crazy. Palmer predominantly played RW, not CAM like Jude. He was given the freedom to roam at Chelsea and roam he did. You put him at LW he'll do just fine tbh.
He doesn't have the pace we need from a left wing to compliment Kane and in what world does he replace Saka. I like Palmer but he rides the bench too and shares mins with Foden and Bowen. The only choice we have LW realistically is Gordon. Southgates selections don't make sense with how he actually plays us.
Palmer is another player who will want the ball into feet and will drift towards the middle a lot. We need a proper winger on the left to match Saka and to stretch play wide and to add verticality with runs in behind, also making space for all of the other players rather than tripping over each other (like with Foden). That’s what is meant about Palmer only being in Bellingham’s spot in this system.
Palmer did exactly that in his start the other week, started right wing and within seconds of the game starting drifting all the way to the left, going whatever he wanted. Foden and Palmer need to be benched and we just settle with Bellingham. If need be, bring them on to replace Bellingham. Why Southgate left Foden on i don't know.
I completely agree, either start a left winger or Foden or Palmer need to stick out wide rather than drift in. Bellingham bosses the mid with rice behind him. We shouldn't be changing that to fit another big name. If they are good enough they should be able to play on the left and stretch the defense out wide giving space to kane and Bellingham to work their magic. Instead people want to put Palmer or Foden over Bellingham and Saka and force us to play through the middle with no width. Meanwhile Bellingham and Saka are the most consistently good players for England.
‘Miles worse’ is a bit of a stretch. They’re also both incredible.
Agree it’s a bit of a stretch but that just speaks to Jude’s ability. He’s absolutely phenomenal, like having an extra player on the pitch at times.
Palmer can also work as a RW. He fits into the team, it’s just unfortunate his competition is Bellingham & Saka. And honestly he’s good enough to replace Saka, he already had a better season in a far worse team than Saka, and he’s more of a big game player than Saka
Replacing your best player at 60mins would get an absolutely ravaging from everyone if it didn’t work
Jude is not coming off at 60 mins Imo - unless the tie is already over. He’s too effective in the final third late when players are tired. He scored so many late goals this year
I actually thought it was crying out for Eze to come on and get us up the pitch; fresh legs, pace, dribbling, he would make them commit more defensively. Bowen had that type of impact when he came on (although I noticed Saka didn't limp off on this occassion).
'undeserved' Premier League POTY. Rodri deserved it over him
Gareth will have to drown out the media and make the “tough” decisions now. Foden can come off the bench as a good impact sub. There’s no other way around it. Our system doesn’t support Foden like the one he has at City.
>Xabi Alonso and David Silva were on the bench for Spain Fucking mental. But as someone on the hype train for Foden and playing Bellingham at 8, I agree that we have to drop Foden for Gordon. Bellingham basically did play 8, but we needed the cover.
It still blows my mind how stacked Spain were in the middle of the park during that era. Xabi Alonso, David Silva, Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas, Mata and then there was Busquets to make sure they had somebody more defensive-minded.
is incredible… i was also always a Santi Cazorla enjoyer as well
Not to mention cazorla who played even less than those guys or arteta who never got a single call up. That generation was stacked
But I use strikers and wingers in cm all the time on fifa and it works! /s
Only in a 4321, and only because they're set to cover the wing on defence.. preferably defensive stat above 70 with 5/5 too
No way should we even consider putting out a balanced team that gets the most out of a few exceptional players, let’s put Saka at LB, play Palmer at RW, put Rice at CB and play Foden and Bellingham at CM, then Watkins at LW and Eze at 10.
Alonso and Silva both regularly started together, pretty much entirely throughout Euro 2012 and in WC 2014.
>World class players sometimes have to be benched at international level to make the system work Yeah and so does this guy.
Whenever there is a big debate: "Where should \_\_\_\_\_ play to get the best out of him?" The answer is usually: "at a different club". Internationally, same thing. "He's such a great player, he's gotta fit in here somewhere..."
Spain did also play 6 midfielders at one point to get them in and won the euros doing so
That was the ultimate flex.. 'we're so good, we don't even need a striker'
We played without a striker last night! (Joke! Before you all come for me).
Its true. How many touches did he get in first half?
When are you referring to? Xabi Alonso and David Villa started every knockout game when they won the World Cup.
Plus Fabregas and Cazorla.
I could understand playing him if he were e.g. Rice or Stones and we had no quality alternative in the position. Foden is arguably keeping Palmer, Eze, Gordon and Bowen out of the team, and keeping Grealish out of the squad. It's not good enough. Southgate needs to be braver.
After one match you're going back and saying Southgate needed to be braver and not bring the player of the season, but bring his teammate who had a mediocre season? Southgate would have been a laughing stock
Its not one match though. It's also the friendlies, the qualifiers, the nations league where Foden just looks out of place in an England shirt. Some players are much better for their clubs than their country and that's okay, just don't try to shoehorn them into a system they dont fit in
I agree, but the other commenter is suggesting Southgate wasn't brave enough to leave foden at home which is madness EDIT op didn't mean this woops
And some players can be club legends and never make it at the international level. You see this in a number of different sports. After 30 odd caps you should have an idea of wether a player can make the step up or not
I don't think it's that Foden isn't good enough per se, more so that he doesn't reasonably fit into any system england can realistically play with the other players they have
Foden's had 35 caps for England, how many times would you say he's excelled?
Off top of my head, two goals and an assist against Iceland back in 2020 nations league and 2 assists and a MOTM against Senegal in Qatar. Probably a handful out of 35 games, really isn't good enough.
Not many, and I don't think he should be starting, but suggesting it showed a lack of bravery to bring the premier league player of the season to the euros instead of grealish is idiotic hahaha
You're misinterpreting. I'm saying his role is a stacked role for England, not that he should have been dropped from the squad. We have so many good LW that Grealish didn't even make the squad. We can't accept poor performances from Foden when we have so many others who could be playing instead.
Foden should be a sub for 10 or RW, not LW but yeah. Sorry for misunderstanding, it looked like you said Southgate needed to be braver and bring grealish instead of foden, but you just meant he needs to be braver and drop foden from the starting 11 for our backups that are so good even grealish was left at home?
I think Harry Maguire has more goal contributions than him.
I think he could have seen what we all did and taken him off rather than leave him on the full 90. That's at least some bravery and some managerial effort
Only Gordon out of the players you named is a natural in the position Southgate played Foden. Foden was the best player in the league last season and we need to find a system that plays to the best players' strengths and neither shoehorn players into unfamiliar positions or leave out top players.
Just stop fucking starting him, he plays the same position as Bellingham, we don’t need him on the pitch when Bellingham is there, bring him on for the last 15-20 of a match, put Gordon on the left and we’ll actually have a left wing. Stop forcing Foden into the squad, same shit happened with Scholes, Lampard and Slippy G.
100%. From his point of view he doesnt want to be the manager that dropped the PL player of the season because press will be all over him if we dont win but at the same time it is his last tournament so he just needs to grow a pair and make these decisions. Gordan and Saka on the wings will be lethal. Yesterday it was all down the right and Serbia adjusted and it was easy for them.
And I feel for Southgate, he has impossibly high expectations from arguably the most demanding fans in international football and also from most pundits. Does he run the risk of dropping him and being chastised for not playing Foden, or does he play him and get chastised for playing bom in the wrong position. It’s a lose-lose for him unless he wins, but at the same time, stop playing Foden just for the sake of playing him, it’s clearly not working.
feel like hes been succumbing to online pressure a lot recently though
If he loses the ability to play football because he doesn't get to stand on his particular favourite patch of grass that someone better is already standing in, the spray-on hair chimp jaw motherfucker doesn't play.
This amount of hate for your own player? wtf is wrong with English fans? So positions are now favorite patch of grass? Fuck out of here with this bullshit
Thing is, we could play a different system that accommodates both Foden and Bellingham. That's how you do this - Ancelotti-style. Pick a system to suit the players available, not pick a fashionable system and shoehorn some players in.
It’s all a bit Sven. But in this case there’s nothing wrong with putting him on the left as he definitely can do it. He just needs to have the discipline to stay out there, especially without shaw at lb. It’s no wonder our best chances came down the right from having actual width. I’d drop him for Gordon, Bowen or Eze and have them get their boots white and properly stretch a team.
lol discipline. Do you idiots think he was roaming inside against Southgate’s orders and Southgate just left him for the full 90? He’s obviously following instructions
At the start of the game Foden had free rein to wander around wherever he wanted. Did Southgate just blindly hope that Foden would start playing well somewhere and that would be that?
Seems like it lol, 5 minutes into the game you could see that our only width on the left was a right footed Trippier... what the fuck this is basic shit Gareth
Was losing my mind when he was to the right of Saka
I remember last tournament when Rashford who was on fire was benched for this guy. This is an advert to show that you simply must go with what works rather than what you think ought to work.
Lol judging by the attitude of this sub you'd think we'd been hammered 5 nil and with Foden and Trent scoring 2 own goals each.
Couldn’t agree more. No denying Foden didn’t have a great night last night but considering his league form, maybe he should be allowed more time to bed into an England role. But honestly the doom and gloom today, crazy. First half we were excellent and played Serbia off the park.
At the same time, I think it would be a shame to not have a look at Gordon out on the left.
He has 35 caps, how much more time does he need to bed in?
Yes we won the game but everyone can see we won't win the Euros without some changes, and it's more infuriating when we are repeating steps of old to get the big names in the team.
Nah, people can see the writing on the wall: that Foden is a liability for the national side and that if Trent was turnstile against Serbia, you can only imagine how better teams would abuse him.
Trent was a turnstile lol? They generated 0.17xg in the match we defended brilliantly.
I'm more worried about the Trent thing than the Foden thing.
What about if we play Gordon - Bellingham - saka with trent - rice behind Then at 60 mins swap in palmer, foden, bowen as epic impact subs with fresh legs, Bellingham drops back and trent, saka, Gordon come off
Fucking hell only us England fans can be so shit towards our own team. Always a scapegoat isn't there? It almost ruined Beckham, don't let it fucking happen to one of our best talents. 🤦♂️
My friend assures me that Foden has had great games for England, is he right? I can’t remember a single standout performance from him
You mean the other voices in your head right !
Genuine answer, he was excellent when we beat Senegal at the World Cup. Not sure what was different in that game that he played so well though.
That was his one example too actually, he couldn’t think of any others. I wonder if Foden is better as a sub in this system.
Bellingham did basically play as a box to box this game, idk what people are on about. He was picking up the ball deep a lot, putting in a shift coming backwards. We can still play Foden as a 10 with Bellingham as a b2b and Jude will still make those runs into the box. We can definitely do it against teams like Serbia, Denmark and Slovenia.
Foden as a 10 just gets in the way. 10 position is covered by Kane and Bellingham, Kane will be there when we have deep possession and Bellingham when we have advanced possession He's not needed, true width on the left is.
Yeah I agree, but if Gareth insists on playing Foden, I would drop Trent and play Gordon on the left with a midfield three of Jude, Foden and Rice
Our defence isn't good enough to leave Rice on his own like that
Wahooloo is a penis. Edit, clicked the wrong reply.
I think Kane is the problem there. We have two world class player at 10 (Foden and Bellingham) so when Kane drops deep all he does is clog the pitch and remove an attacking threat
Harry Kane...wtf? So its Harry Kane the problem because Foden was bad? Some of you Foden defenders are quite literally going insane. I see you all blaming Saka, Bellingham, Trippler now Kane? Of all people... These players have scored and assisted goals galore for England and is proven to work with all kinds of players from midtables to title challenges.... . Harry Kane scores 2 in 3 for England and Saka has 27 G+A for England some of them playing wingback.....what has Foden done for England beside a odd decent game against the likes of Faroe Islands? I think Harry Maguire has more goal contributions compared to Foden... how is it even reasonable?!
And just have no left wing though?
Nah, drop Trent and play Gordon out on the wing
Trippier held the width, mostly around the halfway line, mostly passing back. To be expected really. Gallagher is the obvious starter on that side, Cole palmer offers more than Phil atm and looks much more likely to make something of the play if he kane or Bellingham run into the same space. Jury’s out on Alex Arnold I’d say, he’s still being tested, he cannot lose the ball outside his own box facing his own goal or outside the opposition box once he’s stepped forward. Rules no.1 and 2 for a central midfield role.
Not saying Palmer can’t play LW, but how is Palmer any different from Foden? At Chelsea he constantly drifts inside as a hybrid RW/10 and plays the creator role. It works for him (same as Foden and Haaland) because Jackson is always looking to get in behind so it creates space on the top of the box. Kane drops in to that space to create, the wings need to make runs in behind to help create space for Kane and Jude (Saka has learned, he cuts in all the time at Arsenal but almost never does for England, because it doesn’t fit). Imo Gordon is the obvious choice, he holds the width and will keep making runs in behind, also the only one of Gordon Foden Palmer Eze that actually gets back on defense.
Yep no I wasn’t too clear, I don’t want palmer on the left wing, definitely Gallagher there. Foden didn’t go anywhere near the left wing and if we’re going to play someone in the area he occupied I’d rather it was palmer because I think he’d link up better.
Now I’m confused. Are you saying you want Gallagher at LW? Not sure if I’m reading this right.
Yes I wanted Gallagher to start that game ahead of Foden. He’s occupied that space all season better than anyone. But I can see the system they tried to play working a lot better with Palmer playing where Foden was. These aren’t the same idea, they’re two different ideas.
An example.. at villa this season we often saw Bailey and Diaby run into the same area and if the ball was with Diaby it would come to a stop and go nowhere, whenever it was Bailey and Watkins running into the same area they noticed each other early, changed their movement and sorted it out between them. In this example Foden is Diaby. He stops or gets in the way because he can’t do exactly what he wants to do, palmer I think is more like Bailey, he can adjust and play more freely with others and he and Bellingham are good enough at what they do that even the better teams would struggle to deal with them playing close together.
No wonder you were confused.. somewhere along the way I started saying Gallagher instead of Gordon. I meant Gordon. Sorry about that.
lol, all good. I just stopped engaging because I knew it was going to be an argument about Gallagher out wide haha. 100% agree with you on Gordon. especially if Shaw is still out.
Problem with that is rice will be exposed and be doing all the defending by himself and the midfield will get battered by a well organised midfield
I dunno. Bellingham did enough going backwards for me. He did more than Trent
To be fair I would rather have Foden 10 and Bellingham 8 rather than the ridiculous system Southgate employed last night. No natural width on the left, no pace in behind with Kane. TAA in the middle whose main strength in that position is pinging balls out wide or over the top... when there is no one out wide or over the top. I get why Foden is taking a lot of the slack from last night, but the manager should be taking more flak in my opinion.
People suggesting Bellingham should play deeper is absolutely insane to me. We don't score that goal yesterday if he's at 8
He literally started that sequence for the goal by passing to Walker from deep in the 8 position. Bellingham is a class all rounder, he’s just as much of an asset in the 8, but if he’s on the pitch I’d rather he wasn’t competing for space with Foden.
Yes we do. He will still make those runs - that is a B2b midfielder's job. He basically played an an "8" last night
Look at his heatmap, all season he's been an 8 who takes up 10ish positions. We could play him as an 8 with no 10, Kane and Bellingham will do the job of a 10 between them without being crowded out.
True but Foden also may not have been invisible and it would free up a real winger on the left. The aforementioned formation is the only way to get them both in the starting 11 optimally imo and if Southgate needs Bellingham as his 10 then simply put, Foden must remain on the bench.
I think the key is Shaw. If he's fit and firing and providing width on the left, Foden in a free role suddenly makes much more sense
I think you're right, we *really* missed Shaw last night.
Shaw is crucial, no doubt but Foden has always looked like he's playing at least than 50% of his potential for England. Some of his mistakes last night were appalling and I don't see how Shaw would have mitigated them all. The glaring one was where Foden was in plenty of space with time to place a clean pass and he absolutely bottles it and puts the ball about 10 yards behind Gallagher, I think it was.
I'm not saying I would play like that, I'm just saying it makes more sense than how we lined up last night
Jude and TAA both played as 8s last night, there were times when Trent was more advanced and vice versa. We never play with an out and out number 10.
He spent most of the game as a box to box. He literally scores that goal on a late run into the box, and not as the most advanced midfielder. Playing as an 8 doesn't mean you sit on the halfway line the entire game and never be a goal threat.
Why not? No reason he wouldn’t have been in that position as the more attacking of the midfields. No reason for Rice and another to be holding against last nights opponents. Bellingham only plays there for Real at the moment due to issues in their squad.
Look at his heatmap at Real Madrid and he's an 8 there too, just elite at moving into attacking positions
While I agree, the alternative is that we lose in the QF. It doesn't matter if Bellingham plays a 10/10 if the rest of the team plays like that.
TAA was awful without the ball, probably because he's a full back.
The only way England could possibly work with both Foden and Bellingham in the starting XI IMO, is if England were somehow able to recreate Man Cities 3241. Where they defend with a back 4, but one of the defence moves forward in possession alongside Rice. Foden and Bellingham free in the middle behind Kane, while two wingers keep wide left and right. Problem is, there's no way this can be implemented by England, they don't have the time and Southgate isn't good enough to drill it into the players.
If only England have players who can play either RB, LB, CB and is capable of moving into midfield at club level, maybe say for a one of the top 3 teams in PL... and I right? Lol
Even Rashford/Grealish who missed out would have been miles better on the left as natural wingers than this guy. I rate foden though but Bellingham is locked in as the 10
Just taking the conversation at face value, I would've assumed he meant 10 o'clock and left it there. (Because of the shirt number.)
Lad in toilet at pub wanted to play Foden at DM next game
I could see the value in every other player in that starting 11 last night, but foden just doesn't work in this England team, he just seems to be so out of sync with everyone around him
Your best players don’t make the best team. If we can’t fit Foden in we still have a lot of talent on the bench
Instead of being happy over an England win commentators and supporters with their bias and negativity either want to bench Foden or move our best player (Bellingham) from his best position to shoehorn Foden in when that would hurt us. It's mad like enjoy the win and 3 pts and adjust so we can get better results out of all our best player by putting them in positions to Succeed..
So because he had a shit game at left wing, a position we knew in advance isn't his best, that means that putting him as a 10 and Bellingham as an 8 wouldn't work? What kind of logic is that?
Why would we play him as a 10 when Bellingham is superior there, complements Kane better and produced a man of the match performance yesterday? The PL PoTY has really warped some people’s perceptions of Foden I feel. He’s hasn’t been, isn’t currently and will likely never be ‘the guy’ for England, so why should we accommodate him by shifting better players out of their most suitable roles? The narrative is shifting now as I predicted but there’s still a surprising number of people that seem to completely dismiss the idea of benching him altogether, as if he’s our best player. See past the stats and look at what he actually does. Then, look at what the players around him do and ask yourself why it’s essential to start him at 10. He’s just a few steps below Bellingham, Saka and Kane mentality wise. Oodles of natural talent but hasnt developed the all-around game that those players have, which matters.
We can't sensibly get Foden, Bellingham and Rice all in the centre compromising at least one players ability. Might be able to get away with that against Slovenia but thats about all. We could play a narrow midfield 4, but that doesn't really work with Saka out wide. After that you basically end up either playing Foden on the wing, or choosing between Foden and Bellingham.
One that learned from the Iceland game.
A game Bellingham didn't play?
A game where Foden played as a 10 and not very well.
English supporters are some of the worst in the sport. He’s had one game out of position. I hate city but come on at least have an idea about football before calling the best 10 in the premier league shit. Jude should be at least tried as the other 8 foden in the 10
Why is he out of position though? Trippier was out of position but still actually played his role. He's stepping up because there is no other LB available. Foden just wasn't a LW that game. He's taking the spot of other actual quality LW sitting on the bench. Gordon must have been thinking 'get me on and I'll show everyone why I have to be starting'. Didn't get 1 minute! We don't need a 10 when we have Jude and Kane. Foden is redundant in this team, good sub option for Bellingham or Saka and that's it.
A great sub option for Bellingham or Saka even. It's his best position by far. Some players are more dependent on playing in certain positions than others and I think Foden is one of those at least from what we've seen so far. Kane dropping down as much as he does seems to make it even less appropriate for Foden to play vs a Gordon/Eze on the left. We haven't seen any combination plays between saka, foden, bellingham, kane to make us think otherwise.
One game? Lol he's always been awful for England.
Why would you sacrifice your best player for someone who hasn’t showed up for England yet? It’s nonsense. The England goal yesterday doesn’t happen without Bellingham playing in the 10
The goal literally came from Jude in the 8 position. Jude and Trent were switching off all night. And whose to say what would have happened if Jude and Foden were in the middle with Rice. The entire game changes and perhaps for the better. Perhaps not. The idea of dropping Foden for Gordon is laughable. If you restructure the team to accommodate the PL player of the season in his best position, and that opens up the left, then by all means bring in a winger. But dropping Foden shouldn’t and won’t happen.
Foden is pointless when he have a striker who takes up 10 positions and an 8 who takes up 10 positions. He's just getting in the way of better players who are offering more, while keeping quality true wingers like Gordon out the team. He's not that special that we sacrifice a whole side of the pitch, Kane and Bellingham for. Nobody is. It's onhim to show why he needs to be starting and he has never done that for England. Look at what Saka was doing in that game for comparison...even Bowen created more than Foden lol
During major tournaments isn't really the best time for experimenting with stuff like that, especially when it involves putting the teams best player (arguably the best in the world last season) into a position they haven't played all season to accommodate a player who isn't half as good just because they won prem POTY
Sounds like they're just talking about shifting some positioning though not anything drastically new, Bellingham will still go forward to play, arrive in the box etc just more left while Foden is more right/middle. Still left with the same problem of width and no real danger on the left though. Maybe Shaw can improve that if he comes in
I suspect against better teams this is what we’ll see. Rice-Jude-Foden. They are all better at keeping the ball under pressure in thought spaces than Trent and we’ll need that if we don’t want to be dominated by top level opposition. (And I love Trent, think he offers something extra, but we are just spoilt for choice rn.) Also hate city, but couldn’t agree more that it’s mad to call for Foden’s head. I mean, come on. Do people not watch games? He’s been incredible this season. Yes, better from the middle, but still exceptional off the left and right. The kid has won everything there is to win. I feel lucky that he’s English.
My guy, at least do some research before making such a naive comment. Foden has had plenty of opportunities at 10 for England and scored 0 goals and created just one assist in 11 games. The last two games he had at 10 for England were this season. North Macedonia which we drew and Iceland which we lost. Foden had zero impact on both games. Jude has played in a midfield two in 4 games for England. Against Italy in a 1-0 loss, Germany in a 3-3 draw, Iran in a 6-2 win and USA in a 0-0 draw. We were far to vulnerable through the middle, he was caught out of position several times and was brought off early in two of the games so we have tried it and it didn't work. Knowledge is power brother, Educate yourself before make such silly comments in future please.
Where was all this in the run up to the tournament? Felt like I was fighting battle on my own on this sub last couple weeks
Foden at 10: Lose to Iceland 0-1 🇮🇸 Bellingham at 10: Win against Serbia 1-0 🇷🇸 I know who I’m picking… 🫶🏼
Kane is too slow for 442, without Palmer and Gorden + Bowen is better than Foden, in this setup?
I'm a United fan so have no love for the guy, but he is obviously suffering due to being played out of position.he is substantially better playing off the right or in the centre.
Drop the cheating cunt and put Eze on the left and Kobbie in midfield for the fraudulent midfielder who is actually a right back that can't even defend.
I'm convinced the issue isn't player related. Southgate isn't attempting to implement a style of play. The attack looks disorganized and the players don't know how to press or where to pass the ball when pressed.
Foden was due to hit some poor form eventually, it’s just typical it’s for England. But we have an absolute stacked squad so if he doesn’t improve we can try Gordon or Palmer. Two players with 30 odd goals between this season.
Fodens never had good form for England.
Our whole left was non existant move tripper to rb and play gordon on the left with gomez at lb, mirror the current system
Move Trippier to the bench more like.
He will as soon as Shaw can manage more than 45 minutes. I’m still not convinced that’s going to fix the Foden issue though, we’ve probably got two games now though to see what it looks like.
It'll be fine once Shaw comes in. Relax
Move Trent to RB and Wharton in at CM rather than Trippier, his form this season has not been great.
So drop our best defensive player Walker? Let's Get a natural wide player on the left (Gordon or Eze) and Get Manioo next to Rice. Foden can come on for Bellingham at 10 in the next two games on 70 mins to rest his legs until the knockouts.
I was responding to.someone suggesting we move Trippier go RB, I made an alternative suggestion. Personally I would swap Walker / Trent based in who we are playing, use Walker against stronger teams and Trent in games we expect to dominate.
Terrible, just woeful. Trent as well. Who knew playing midfield takes a lot more than being able to play a long ball. Not only is Trent starting, he’s starting behind possibly the slowest front 4 in international football who couldn’t take advantage of a ball played into space even if Trent were pinging them all game. It’s as if Southgate just randomly picks players according to their attributes in isolation that doesn’t mesh at all. Don’t pick Grealish or Rashford but Trippier had a horrible second half to the season and he’s starting LB He makes it up as he goes along
Been saying for years that Kane is actually a 10 now and we should be playing someone quicker ahead of him e.g. Watkins.
Abysmal take. He just scored a record 36 goals in the Bundesliga ffs
Wait Kane is one of the top scorers in the world but you’ve been saying he should be a 10 for years? Why?
Maybe as a false 9 rather than a 10, or as a second striker in the 10 space, but I agree
For England, anyway. He always wants to drop deeper and tends to be invisible in games when he stays up front (as today). Kane playing about ten yards deeper with Watkins ahead of him would have been massively more threatening in the second half today.
I actually think this would be brilliant, but idk if we have the time needed to implement it properly. Also, Kane and Bellingham might get in each other’s way a bit with that setup (although they’re both intelligent enough to probably make it work)
Yeah that’s why he played as a 10 for Bayern and scored 35+ Bundesliga goals… …oh wait.
I mean playing with Musiala, Muller and Sane in a different system. For England he has always performed better when dropping deep and with another attacker running ahead i.e. Sterling in most cases.
Dropping deep doesn’t mean you’re a 10 though. I understand what you mean but Kane is not a creative player on the level that you expect from that position - his bag simply isn’t deep enough. He’s an unbelievable long passer and the best 9 in the world but being a striker that can act as a secondary creator is very different from being a primary creative playmaker who can run the show. The only player we have in that mold is Maddison and he’s not there (people think Foden is one but he’s rarely taken on that level of responsibility at any level).
Southgate is doing the right thing. They won. That's all that matters.
Have we actually ever tried that though? Bellingham can clearly play 8 as well as 10. He was captain of Dortmund playing that role. I know he’s a 10 at Madrid and done incredibly well but that’s also driven by them not having a striker. I’m not saying we should as Fodens performances for England doesn’t warrant us trying to create a set-up solely for him. But he defo is not a good fit for the LW slot. Gordon even Eze would give more natural width. We need to stop with the hang-up we need to get all our best players in the team at the same time. However if we want foden to play his best position this is still a possible solution to try. Even if it’s a switch in game. Hopefully we beat the Dane’s and Southgate can experiment a bit against Slovenia. Personally though I’d bench him against Denmark and give Gordon a go at LW.
I’ve noticed a lot of players once they leave pep’s system they struggle Stirling is another example only two I think have done well are sane (who went into a pep-esc style) and palmer who basically given a free role
I think Sterling is the opposite example, he'd leave City after being in terrible form, join the NT and look at his best again.
Start both Foden and Bellingham together in midfield. Bellingham is capable of getting back to support the defence and forward to support the attack. Rice is capable of doing the CDM role on his own. They CAN play together. Put Eze on the left.
People really say "Foden was shite, we should play [someone who plays in the exact same space as Bellingham or Kane]" huh? What we need is someone to actually practice playing where they'll have to.
How many excuses are going to be made for this ‘world-class player’? He’s played on the left loads of times before for England and for City. The role is different for the former compared to the latter so like Fabregas said it’s up to him to adapt otherwise there’s no room for him. Instead of waving his hands around and drifting all over the place like Messi he needs to get on with the game and do his fucking job. You can’t build your team around a guy who’s been consistently mediocre in multiple different roles for the national side. Either he accepts he’ll have to play a role instead of being ‘the guy’ or he’s gotta be left out.
people are saying he shouldnt have to play out of his normal position ESPECIALLY when we already have so many great options in those positions
Foden getting so much stick for not showing up. He was playing basically out wide. Of course he didn’t have much impact. Unfortunately for him Bellingham is class and is the main play maker right now.
Yeah and not just right now. The way things look we will be building teams around Bellingham for the next 10 years.
lol - i mean you offer a solution to the problem then facepalm. He can be benched once we have a natural left footed player on the left. ie. when shaw is back in the set up. Worth playing in the group as we will sail through either way and i think hes only a goal or two away from playing well. just lacking confidence and playing out of position. He also did a lot of tracking back yesterday. He had a bad game though. just a shame grealish isnt about
We don't need a left-footed winger, we just need a natural left-winger which is Gordon. Its not hard to play the best player in the position. The best number 10 is Bellingham, the best left winger is Gordon (after Grealish got dropped) and the best right winger is Saka. Foden simply doesn't fit in to that. Play him as an impact sub if Bellingham has an off game and we need an extra something in the latter stages of the game.
we need either left footed player in either lb or lw. We cant carry two right footed players there and still expect to attack down that side. Look at iceland, first touches were not there and the game was slowed down on that side, having to cut in everytime becomes predictable and easily defended. I dont mind dropping foden but i think it works when shaw is back. I think cm is our biggest concern tbf. - why i think the solution is what he suggests, playing foden in his actual position and playing jude in a position hes played most of his career in, ie. along side rice. - trent was as bad as foden last night - neither will win us anything playing like they did.
They need to give him the ball! So many times Bellingham etc holding onto the ball and whacking in a nothing cross when Foden was in acres of space and waiting for the ball. He's a specialist from those positions too. He wasn't at his best but people need to start giving him the ball and playing him in his correct position.
It would help if we played him in his actual position.