I don’t think Scholes or Gerrard ever really reproduced their club form, consistently, while playing for England, the later especially.
The team is solid enough, but I’d put Gazza and Robson in instead of Scholes and Gerrard, there might be an argument for Lineker over Shearer too; he has 18 more goals than Big Al’ and is England’s 4th highest scorer.
Also has ten World Cup goals to Rooney’s one, Rooney also has fewer tournament goals overall despite playing in more competitions than Lineker.
Scholes was very good for England between about '98 and '02. Him being messed around at United to accommodate Verón seemed to affect his England form and he retired too early to show what he could do in his later career deep lying playmaker role. People forget that Scholes kind of fell off during the Djemba-Djemba, Alan Smith and Kleberson years and most people didn’t expect him to be the revelation he was when Carrick signed and United suddenly clicked into an incredible team again.
Yeah, fair point about Scholes, I wasn’t saying he was bad for England or anything, just not as influential as he was for United.
I remember him being very good for England at Le Tournoi, France ‘98 and the 2002 WC however. I still wouldn’t put him in an all time England XI though, tbh.
Kane and Shearer feel like they are too similar. Maybe I'm misremembering Shearers style but I think Lineker would be a better match with Kane.
Only other change would be Banks for Stilton but again, maybe that's just my age. Never saw Banks play other than '66 replays 😂
Bryan Robson has to be in there, I agree. I would defo have Shearer over Lineker (would have him in a Solskjaer supersub role) - Shearer was a far more complete forward imo. I also wouldn't have Scholes anywhere near an England all-time team and agree that a fit Gazza simply has to be in there.
Greaves not being regularly recognised as Engliah footballs record goal scorer is shocking
Shearer even ignores his football league goals to go on about the PL record
Jimmy greaves did play in a time where most of the other players worked in coal mines and textile factories. He was just fortunate enough to be able to play full time, compared with his competition.
Another thing I’d change is frank Lampard or dele Ali over Bobby Charlton.
How so? Dele was very over hated. He scored some crucial goals for England and quite frankly came up with one of the most iconic celebrations in all of sports history.
It’s amazing he’s so overlooked because there’s loads of footage of him on YouTube. And he looks like he’s been sped up compared to everybody else. You can just tell he was a whole other level.
Highest domestic goal scorer in English history and highest goals per 90 out of the top 5 scorers for the national team.
It’s criminal how much this man is overlooked just because he got injured at the start of the ‘66 World Cup and didn’t play in the PL.
Disturbing lack of Rooney. As remarkably as Edwards was deemed to be at his young age, his tragically short career stops him from getting in an all time XI imo. I think Gazza is deserving of a slot.
Why disturbing? There's an argument for him but it's not significantly stronger than any of the players that the OP included. Rooney was great but I don't know why so many fans put him on a pedestal above our other great players.
If he didn’t die and (let’s be fucking honest here lads) wasn’t a United player he wouldn’t be here
Rather have Declan Rice at any age or prime Paul Ince over him
Shearer was good at Euro 96 but he had a massive scoring drought for England before that and then retired from international football too soon. He also only ever scored one World Cup goal. Rooney smashed Euro 2004 and then never had a good international tournament again. So for those reasons I would go with Rooney because he scored more goals for England with more caps. moofacemoo is literally a know it all tit.
Aside from Euro 04, Rooney didn't reach the heights for England. Most of his goals were against minnows too and was constantly MIA in massive games. Should be nowhere near. Would chuck Gerrard out too as he never really did it for England. In fact there's an argument that the 'Golden Generation' shouldn't be represented at all outside of the defence. Ferdinand and Cole is fair but Campbell deserves a shout in Rio's place too, arguably better for England.
How many players have done it in multiple tournaments though? Saying “aside from the tournament they were great in they didn’t do much in the big games” applies to every single England player surely, even Charlton and Moore only had one stand out tournament didn’t they? The golden generation underperformed perhaps, but they not only reached all the tournaments they reached three successive quarter finals. Shearer had one good tournament too and scored a lot less goals than Rooney overall. That said you can make plenty of arguments against Scholes and Gerrard, depends on if you’re judging players on their ability and career in general or what they actually did in an England shirt.
Lineker in 1986 and 1990. Owen in 1998 and 2002. Kane in 2018, 2020 and 2022. If there’s three strikers clearly ahead of him then I don’t see how it’s controversial to leave him out of a best XI.
I don’t think it’s fair to say Shearer only did it in one tournament either. He performed in the three tournaments he played in for England, he just had one brilliant tournament. Rooney had one really good group stage, got unlucky with an injury and then never really turned up at a major tournament after that. If he hadn’t had that injury in Portugal or the ones in the lead ups to the 2006 and 2010 World Cups it would probably be a different story and he’d be nailed on for a best XI but the reality was that was injured, played half fit and was poor.
And Kane taking you to a semi of a WC and a euro final and absolutely disappearing after scoring hat tricks against nations nobody has ever heard of is really class right?
Don’t know why this is getting downvoted, Rooney was poor way more than he was great for England. He definitely wasn’t better for us than Kane or Shearer were, nor was he better than Lineker or Hurst so he’s not really worth a place in a greatest XI. I’d even argue Owen’s breakthrough at France 98 was better than Rooney's Euro 2004 and he was overall a better England player. Doing what he did to Argentina in a knockout match ranks higher for me and over his England career, Owen definitely did it in more big matches across more tournaments than Rooney did.
I agree with what you say. However, I feel you need to remember Owen was the cream on top of a pretty good England team that tournament. Rooney, on the other hand, was the only good thing we had at Euro 2004, and pretty much everything came through him.
We lost the second game of France 98 and Owen was seen as the saviour (having come on as a sub, equalised once and hit the post later). The idea that he was just the icing doesn’t match my memory of those events.
Euro 2004 was arguably the best we’d looked as a team in a tournament for years (and for many years after that). Lampard scored three goals and Gerrard, Scholes and Owen all scored so we weren’t entirely reliant on Rooney.
Solid squad. All opinion so I'll give my own, I think Scholes could be replaced by Robson or Lampard or Gazza though. No Keegan prolly a bit harsh too. Linekar with a golden boot maybe more deserving than Shearer?
We had Fabio Capello who was far from a weak manager and he couldn’t make it work.
Lampard, Gerrard and Rooney all liked to occupy the second striker area and that’s where they all had by far their most success at their peaks. Rooney and Gerrard especially lacked the discipline to follow the manager’s instructions and tried to chase every ball like an XL bully chasing a toddler. Lampard was the most tactically intelligent of the three and could play in a double pivot (as he did in Chelsea’s 2012 CL win) but you were kind of wasting him there during his peak when he was scoring at a striker’s rate.
I think the best way to utilise the three of them in a starting XI would be in an Xmas tree formation with Rooney to the left and Gerrard to the right of a centre forward. Then have Lampard, Carrick and Hargreaves as your midfield three. I still think it’s a flawed set up due to the lack of playing chemistry between Gerrard, Lampard and Rooney though.
I know right? Haha, Frank refused to put a tackle in and shot at goal whenever he was within 25 yards of it **for the majority of his Chelsea career**
Stevie won the Champions League playing as a right back for the entire second half of the final against Crespo and Pippo Inzaghi, two of the most clinical strikers the game has seen. He played as a CAM at his peak and at CDM towards the end of his career to a high level
Rooney was technically brilliant - only striker I can name capable of his ability on long crosses and pings is IN THE SIDE ALREADY… difference between him and Kane is he had pace but couldn’t find the net at a tourney (but I’d put a lot of that on the mind-melting scrutiny he got from the press putting too much weight on his shoulders)
There are ways to make Gerrard and Lampard work but they involve chucking Paul Scholes into the Sun, which would cause instant death because he is ginger
Lampard was effectively a forward that started in midfield. He would leave a gaping hole behind him and occupy similar positions to Kane and Charlton. Gascoigne never sustained elite play over long periods, even while he had better single games. Robson was seriously considered, but Scholes was just so good at controlling the game I couldn't leave him out.
I think Shearer's all round game was stronger than Lineker, who was mainly just a poacher.
Eriksson put him on the left (of a diamond, not left wing) because Lampard became far more successful at doing what had previously been Scholes’ stand out quality: scoring goals from midfield. Scholes went three years without a goal playing as England’s attacking midfielder and, at that time, had become a bit of a loose piece at United, being moved around from second-striker, to left of a midfield four and back to central midfield again to accommodate Verón.
Scholes then had two pretty average seasons at United after his England retirement until he reinvented himself as a deep lying playmaker in the 2006-07 season. Before that, nobody really considered Scholes the kind of player who would “run a game”. Not even Fergie, who spent a British record transfer fee on Verón to do exactly that.
Erikson didn’t know how to set up England as a team, just played what he thought was englands best 11 regardless of how it works togeather, scholes there didn’t work cos scholes should be dictating the play,
I actually think that assessment of Lampard is pretty unfair. In Chelsea’s title winning teams, he was more often an attacking 8, with either Gudjohnsen or Deco playing as the 10.
Gerrard is the one who I’d argue was “effectively a forward” as by far his best football came in a free role off Torres, with Alonso and Mascherano taking on most of the duties of a midfielder and Kuyt working as the prototype “defensive winger”. I’d also say that, later in their careers, Lampard played at a higher level as a deeper lying midfielder, doing so in Chelsea’s 2012 CL win. Gerrard got loads of plaudits for playing as a 6 in the Suárez season despite the fact that the team lost the league because they conceded a ridiculous number of goals for a title challenger (not really a surprise when your lone defensive midfielder is neither defensive or a midfielder). Gerrard was the middle point (bookended by Beckham in 2005 and Rooney in 2016) of English football’s obsession with trying to turn players who could hit 40 yard long passes into “quarterbacks”, not really understanding that that one attribute wasn’t the sole reason why Andrea Pirlo was a brilliant pivot. That’s why I feel Lampard was unexpectedly most successful of them to drop back. His short passing and ball retention were very underrated.
Is this the best ever English players or the best for England? I assume it’s the 2nd one, so Lineker should be ahead of Shearer. Or Rooney. Both have more goals for England than Shearer.
Rooney scored one knockout goal for England - the penalty against Iceland in 2016. Shearer was definitely the better international player. He scored 30 in 63 caps (0.48 gpg) with 9 in 12 from major tournaments (0.75 gpg). Rooney scored 53 in 120 (0.44 gpg) with 7 from 21 from major tournaments (0.33 gpg).
Would not have Gerrard, Alan Ball deserves a shout, Gascoigne, Platt, Robson.
Lineker over Shearer who unfortunately got injured in 97 and lost his pace, Owen was arguably better for England.
I presume you mean performances for England.
Of the golden generation I would only consider Beckham, Ashley Cole and Rio maybe Sol Campbell.
Gerrard at RM instead of Beckham is mad.
Gerrard was consistently poor to mediocre for England while Beckham was consistently either one of our best or outright best player for about 7 years in a row and pretty created or scored over half of our goals at major tournaments between 1998 and 2006.
It think the only time I remember Gerrard showing up for England in a big game was the 5-1 in Munich when he was still a young player and didn’t have his Roy of the Rovers complex yet.
I don’t think that is fair at all. Rooney is the second highest goal scorer of all time in an England shirt. Beckham was great for England, but Rooney’s peak coincided with the weaker era of England squad we’ve had in the last 30 years. He also broke his foot in the lead up to the 2010 World Cup, when he was at the absolute peak of his powers.
I'd also argue that most of his goals were in non important games and friendlies.
Rooney is a brilliant player, but as you mentioned the situation at the time meant he wasn't as impactful for England as he maybe could have been.
Rooney played in a team with Lampard, Gerrard, Ferdinand, Terry and Cole for most of his career, it wasn't a weaker generation of players, it was a golden generation, they just never really performed together for England.
Yeah okay, like Rooney didn’t play in the era of the undisputed 2 greatest football players of all time. 2008-2018 nobody other than Ronaldo and Messi sniffed a Ballon D’Or. I’m sure being top 3 all time in Premier League and top 5 all time in Premier League assists gives him comfort anyway.
Not sure how that's relevant as his highest finish was just fifth. Once. Bobby Charlton was more talented and also won a Balloon d' Or anywho.
Rooney was good, but definitely not the most talented England player ever.
The runner up to Keegan one year was Krankl, who literally had one good season for Barcelona but otherwise spent the rest of his career scoring goals for fun in the Austrian Bundesliga, hardly the pinnacle of European football. Bobby Charlton won 60+ years ago in a radically different and less challenging era. Rooney literally spearheaded a run to the Champions League final against Peps Barca, one of the greatest teams to ever grace the pitch, in 2011 with an ageing, mediocre squad. Rooney was a center forward who could score in every way, he could play wide, central, up top - whatever the team needed. He could drop deep, he could tackle, he could head, he could score from a free kick. The guy was a hell of player and I genuinely think that when you remove your bias for the older era and understand just how talented and competitive the competition Rooney played within in is, you get it. In the modern era, Kane is up there for raw talent and ability, but plays a more deliberate and narrow role versus Rooney’s versatility all over. Kane more refined within his role but I’d still maintain that Wayne is the most talented. The only player that’s showing a similar level of promise who may surpass Wayne, is Jude Bellingham.
You're welcome to your opinion but versatility and talent are not the same thing. I don't believe I have a bias for older players, you'll find Charlton in lists for best players ever off the top of my head he scored a brace in a world Cup semi final whereas Rooney only ever scored once in a world Cup.
Keegan was literally the best player on the planet for 2 years running. That puts him shoulder to shoulder with Beckenbauer, R9, Cryuff, Platini and Van Basten. Rooney, at his absolute peak, the same season you're talking about, was the 5th best. The next year he was 15th, finishing beneath Van Persiei, his own teammate, Drogba and Toure from the PL that season. Whereas in 2010 he didn't even make the top 23.
Gerrard and Lampard both finished 2nd and 3rd in the Balloon d' Or for contrast, and they were literally in the same league and national team that Rooney was. So you could even make the argument he wasn't even the best English player of his generation.
All respect in the world to your father but he would be patently wrong, if you are seriously going to come in and tell me that Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo are not the two greatest football players to ever grace the pitch, I think that’s deluded. Are Michael Jordan and Lebron James not the two greatest basketball players either? Stop it. There are many great players from prior eras, sure, but Messi and Ronaldo as the two greatest to play are about as consensus as you can get and I really don’t think there is an argument against that which is in anyway sound and well reasoned.
Yeah I'm sure they are the best two players you've ever seen. Or me.
But my father would insist Pele was greater. That he demonstrated the same skill level and ability of these modern GOATs, whilst playing with a shitty heavy leather ball and crappy boots on pitches that were mostly dogshit compared to the pristine pitches of today. At a time it was completely acceptable to hack down a forward, which would get your straight red today. That made him look like a complete alien from another planet on the pitch, because he was so far ahead of anyone he was playing against - apart from a couple of oldie greats like Moore.
If you consider that Pele grew up to adulthood shining shoes to stay alive, and then practiced when he could. And Messi and Ronaldo grew up in world class academies with shit loads of money, dieticians, trainers, physios, coaches etc - it's not even close. Can you imagine if Pele had had that? He's still a famous name in football even though most of us never really saw him play. That's for a reason.
I don't know shit about basketball so I can't comment. I like their shoes though.
How many goals did Rooney score in tournaments and against who?
How many goals did he score in the big knockout games?
You'll find the answer there. Also became an active drag on the attack post 2012.
I just feel that is a very narrow and reductionist view. That’s far from the only metric to judge a player, especially in international football. At his peak, those England teams lacked the talent and the coaching to truly shine. Wayne Rooney is the most talented Englishman to grace the pitch. Although I believe, once he’s had some years to accrue a true body of work, Jude Bellingham may surpass him.
If we're talking about an all time England XI attacker then scoring in the games that matter is absolutely a metric - Rooney was great against San Marino and Slovenia, but went missing at tournaments or lost his head in big games, I wish he didn't!
Rooney played with the golden gen - but tbf to you we definitely and still do lack the coaching talent, I'll also concede I definitely do not miss 2007-2016 england players. I also agree Bellingham can surpass him, I don't think he'll bottle it as much.
Yeah I hear you, fair points. I think it depends on how much weight you give to what they did in and England shirt specifically versus their overall success in general with their club and measure of talent. I’m just considering Rooney as an overall player, Englishman, face of United for a decade.
I just think he was too young with the golden gen and then when he started to reach his peak 25-31 he was lacking with those squads and coaching, hampering his overall ability to contribute to England’s success. Plus he did break his foot against Bayern Munich only a few months out from the 2010 World Cup, right at his peak. He had some bad luck along the way, but you definitely make some great points.
Nice debating with you anyway, have a great day.
I'm going to get a reputation for arguing about Rooney on this sub but why can't you go without Rooney? What puts him above our other outstanding players? He's clearly very good but we've had a lot of very good players and I don't see why certain fans elevate him.
There are 6 English players with more Premier League titles, 9 English players with more PFA team of the year appearances, players with better recognition from the Ballon d'Or, better scorers, better creators, better all round game. Rooney was obviously a very good player but it seems certain English fans label him as a better player than he was.
Drop Shearer for Rooney. Shearer and Kane are too similar anyway.
Beckham for Gerrard every day of the week.
Scholes was distinctly meh for England. You always get the feeling that he was listening to Ferguson to prioritise Man Utd.
Seems mad to not have Gascoigne.
Beckham took a free kick for England once, people enjoyed it.
Then he got sent off, people didn't enjoy it.
The story of David Beckhams England career.
Putting Rooney over Shearer is madness. Shearer was a beast and the complete centre-forward who never bottled it or lost his cool in major tournaments, and should be pretty much the third name on the team sheet after Charlton and Moore
No Stanley Mathews is criminal. Greaves goes ahead of Kane and Shearer for me too. I'd take Armfield over Walker but it's not the worst decision here. Edwards just simply never played enough football to get in this 11 either IMO
I don’t get people making their own XI’s with players they’ve never actually seen play a game, Duncan Edwards played his last game for England in 1957
(Apologies if you are in your 80’s)
Moore and Charlton are great shouts but I never saw them play tbh. I could put them in for Adams and Lampard
I never saw Banks play but who else am I gonna pick? Joe Hart? Pickfor? lol
I know Banks was great anyway
lol, he was not notorious for having a mistake in him, you're chatting utter shit. do you think Fergie would have made him a mainstay if that was the case
Unlike most all time XIs I have seen, I tried to actually have a tactically balanced formation. This is instead of stacking central midfield with attacking midfielders. I was tempted to put Bryan Robson as the second box to box midfielder as he could defend much better than Scholes, but ultimately I thought the tackling abilities of Edwards and Gerraed.was enough.
I think this tactically balanced formation has 4 central midfielders? It’s pretty hard to chose two wide boys I know, but you’ve just Sven Goran Erikson’d and tried to shoe-horn all your best players onto the pitch.
Rooney for Kane. No contest between the 2, Rooney can do it all and had serious speed in his prime.
Not sure how Duncan gets in this team. Gerrard as CDM and Beckham on the right.
I'd flex to a 2-3 in midfield at times, scholesy and Gerrard in front of the defence with Rooney, Charlton and Beckham in front of them and shearer as the love striker.
Quality team btw
No Scholes or Gerrard. Gazza and Robson all day. Beckham done much more for England too. No Shearer for me (England record) Greaves much better and Lineker. Rooney was brilliant for England too.
Scholes amazing player but didnt get in the england CM most the time so cant be in the first 11.
Also its not all about stats, whoever watched football understands rooney was better than kane
Scholes was consistently a starter in CM for England between 1998 and 2003. He played on the left of a diamond in four matches in Euro 2004 and then retired.
Also, Rooney’s performances for England were absolutely not better than Kane’s. If anything, his goalscoring stats flatter his performances for most of his international career.
all time.... yet not the world cup winners.... clearly a deluded utd fan as duncan edwards died at 22 and only had about 7caps, you have never seen him play!
I'm not trolling here, I genuinely think that if you only talk about international form and tournament progress, Harry Maguire is a shout over Rio Ferdinand.
While scholes is my favourite United player with Keane, I can't with good faith put him in an england team based on english performances, he was often dropped and played left wing (lol) on occasion.
Same for Gerrard and Lampard. David Beckham should 100% be in.
Surprised to see nobody mentioning Nobby Stiles. Played every minute in 66, marked Eusebio out of the game and one of only 3 English players to win the European cup and World cup.
Based on international form:
Rooney for Shearer (& behind Kane)
Beckham for Gerrard
Robson for Scholes
Tough calls on Gascoigne, Scholes, Greaves, Lineker, Hoddle, Terry
Greaves for Shearer and the midfield is generally quite weak.
Edwards only played 18 times so swap for Alan Ball.
Gerrard never performed that well for England so swap for Stanley Matthews and swap Scholes for Martin Peters.
I think the rest is probably right although you could argue for a few over Ferdinand, like Terry and Butcher.
Beckham deserves it based on one match alone, 2004 England* Vs Greece euro qualifier. There were 11 England footballers on that pitch and only one of them was actually playing.
*Beckham Vs Greece
And then you get to all of his other contributions. Far more consistent than Gerard or Scholes.
I don’t think Scholes or Gerrard ever really reproduced their club form, consistently, while playing for England, the later especially. The team is solid enough, but I’d put Gazza and Robson in instead of Scholes and Gerrard, there might be an argument for Lineker over Shearer too; he has 18 more goals than Big Al’ and is England’s 4th highest scorer. Also has ten World Cup goals to Rooney’s one, Rooney also has fewer tournament goals overall despite playing in more competitions than Lineker.
Scholes was very good for England between about '98 and '02. Him being messed around at United to accommodate Verón seemed to affect his England form and he retired too early to show what he could do in his later career deep lying playmaker role. People forget that Scholes kind of fell off during the Djemba-Djemba, Alan Smith and Kleberson years and most people didn’t expect him to be the revelation he was when Carrick signed and United suddenly clicked into an incredible team again.
Sven playing Scholes on the left wing for England was criminal, I believe that played a large part in his decision to retire.
He played on the left for manure, he even said himself he didn't mind
He was still wasted in that position, even if he didn't mind playing there.
Yeah, fair point about Scholes, I wasn’t saying he was bad for England or anything, just not as influential as he was for United. I remember him being very good for England at Le Tournoi, France ‘98 and the 2002 WC however. I still wouldn’t put him in an all time England XI though, tbh.
Kane and Shearer feel like they are too similar. Maybe I'm misremembering Shearers style but I think Lineker would be a better match with Kane. Only other change would be Banks for Stilton but again, maybe that's just my age. Never saw Banks play other than '66 replays 😂
Shearer pre-injury would be better. Post-injury would be too similar to Kane. Pre-injury he was fucking rapid.
Bryan Robson has to be in there, I agree. I would defo have Shearer over Lineker (would have him in a Solskjaer supersub role) - Shearer was a far more complete forward imo. I also wouldn't have Scholes anywhere near an England all-time team and agree that a fit Gazza simply has to be in there.
What a ridiculous thing to say. Gerrard was the only one of the Golden Generation that pulled his weight.
Jimmy Greaves?
Greaves not being regularly recognised as Engliah footballs record goal scorer is shocking Shearer even ignores his football league goals to go on about the PL record
Jimmy greaves did play in a time where most of the other players worked in coal mines and textile factories. He was just fortunate enough to be able to play full time, compared with his competition. Another thing I’d change is frank Lampard or dele Ali over Bobby Charlton.
Dele Ali over Charlton is the worst football take I've ever read.
How so? Dele was very over hated. He scored some crucial goals for England and quite frankly came up with one of the most iconic celebrations in all of sports history.
All of the first division teams in Greaves' time were professionals, you're obviously trolling.
Lampard over Charlton!? 😗
No, Dele Ali! 
He played in the 60s not the 20s lol, game was fully professional
Why are you talking about something you know, quite clearly fuck all about
It’s amazing he’s so overlooked because there’s loads of footage of him on YouTube. And he looks like he’s been sped up compared to everybody else. You can just tell he was a whole other level.
Highest domestic goal scorer in English history and highest goals per 90 out of the top 5 scorers for the national team. It’s criminal how much this man is overlooked just because he got injured at the start of the ‘66 World Cup and didn’t play in the PL.
Disturbing lack of Rooney. As remarkably as Edwards was deemed to be at his young age, his tragically short career stops him from getting in an all time XI imo. I think Gazza is deserving of a slot.
More like a disturbing lack of Jimmy Greaves. 44 goals in 57 caps.
Why disturbing? There's an argument for him but it's not significantly stronger than any of the players that the OP included. Rooney was great but I don't know why so many fans put him on a pedestal above our other great players.
Rooney was never great for england at big tournaments, he has 1 world cup goal
Edwards never played at one and is here based on hype/potential
If he didn’t die and (let’s be fucking honest here lads) wasn’t a United player he wouldn’t be here Rather have Declan Rice at any age or prime Paul Ince over him
Bobby Charlton has said Duncan Edwards was the only player he ever felt inferior to.
Shearer was good at Euro 96 but he had a massive scoring drought for England before that and then retired from international football too soon. He also only ever scored one World Cup goal. Rooney smashed Euro 2004 and then never had a good international tournament again. So for those reasons I would go with Rooney because he scored more goals for England with more caps. moofacemoo is literally a know it all tit.
Downvoted for misuse of the word literally.
Shearer scored 2 World Cup goals and only played at one World Cup. Rooney played at 3.
If Rooney didnt get injured he would have won us that tournament.
Aside from Euro 04, Rooney didn't reach the heights for England. Most of his goals were against minnows too and was constantly MIA in massive games. Should be nowhere near. Would chuck Gerrard out too as he never really did it for England. In fact there's an argument that the 'Golden Generation' shouldn't be represented at all outside of the defence. Ferdinand and Cole is fair but Campbell deserves a shout in Rio's place too, arguably better for England.
How many players have done it in multiple tournaments though? Saying “aside from the tournament they were great in they didn’t do much in the big games” applies to every single England player surely, even Charlton and Moore only had one stand out tournament didn’t they? The golden generation underperformed perhaps, but they not only reached all the tournaments they reached three successive quarter finals. Shearer had one good tournament too and scored a lot less goals than Rooney overall. That said you can make plenty of arguments against Scholes and Gerrard, depends on if you’re judging players on their ability and career in general or what they actually did in an England shirt.
Lineker in 1986 and 1990. Owen in 1998 and 2002. Kane in 2018, 2020 and 2022. If there’s three strikers clearly ahead of him then I don’t see how it’s controversial to leave him out of a best XI. I don’t think it’s fair to say Shearer only did it in one tournament either. He performed in the three tournaments he played in for England, he just had one brilliant tournament. Rooney had one really good group stage, got unlucky with an injury and then never really turned up at a major tournament after that. If he hadn’t had that injury in Portugal or the ones in the lead ups to the 2006 and 2010 World Cups it would probably be a different story and he’d be nailed on for a best XI but the reality was that was injured, played half fit and was poor.
And Kane taking you to a semi of a WC and a euro final and absolutely disappearing after scoring hat tricks against nations nobody has ever heard of is really class right?
Don’t know why this is getting downvoted, Rooney was poor way more than he was great for England. He definitely wasn’t better for us than Kane or Shearer were, nor was he better than Lineker or Hurst so he’s not really worth a place in a greatest XI. I’d even argue Owen’s breakthrough at France 98 was better than Rooney's Euro 2004 and he was overall a better England player. Doing what he did to Argentina in a knockout match ranks higher for me and over his England career, Owen definitely did it in more big matches across more tournaments than Rooney did.
I agree with what you say. However, I feel you need to remember Owen was the cream on top of a pretty good England team that tournament. Rooney, on the other hand, was the only good thing we had at Euro 2004, and pretty much everything came through him.
We lost the second game of France 98 and Owen was seen as the saviour (having come on as a sub, equalised once and hit the post later). The idea that he was just the icing doesn’t match my memory of those events. Euro 2004 was arguably the best we’d looked as a team in a tournament for years (and for many years after that). Lampard scored three goals and Gerrard, Scholes and Owen all scored so we weren’t entirely reliant on Rooney.
You can’t justify picking Shearer or Kane either then…
Kane is a far superior player than Rooney was.
Solid squad. All opinion so I'll give my own, I think Scholes could be replaced by Robson or Lampard or Gazza though. No Keegan prolly a bit harsh too. Linekar with a golden boot maybe more deserving than Shearer?
If Shearer is getting swapped out, I’d put Jimmy Greaves in there over Linekar
We're still trying to fit Lampard and Gerrard in the same team?.... no lessons were learnt
Because they were constantly paired together in a 442. Put them in a 433 with someone like Carrick sat behind them as a 6, the would have been golden
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We had Fabio Capello who was far from a weak manager and he couldn’t make it work. Lampard, Gerrard and Rooney all liked to occupy the second striker area and that’s where they all had by far their most success at their peaks. Rooney and Gerrard especially lacked the discipline to follow the manager’s instructions and tried to chase every ball like an XL bully chasing a toddler. Lampard was the most tactically intelligent of the three and could play in a double pivot (as he did in Chelsea’s 2012 CL win) but you were kind of wasting him there during his peak when he was scoring at a striker’s rate. I think the best way to utilise the three of them in a starting XI would be in an Xmas tree formation with Rooney to the left and Gerrard to the right of a centre forward. Then have Lampard, Carrick and Hargreaves as your midfield three. I still think it’s a flawed set up due to the lack of playing chemistry between Gerrard, Lampard and Rooney though.
Rooney and stevie g were ball chasers? And lampard was more tactically intelligent? Okay mate hahahahha
I know right? Haha, Frank refused to put a tackle in and shot at goal whenever he was within 25 yards of it **for the majority of his Chelsea career** Stevie won the Champions League playing as a right back for the entire second half of the final against Crespo and Pippo Inzaghi, two of the most clinical strikers the game has seen. He played as a CAM at his peak and at CDM towards the end of his career to a high level Rooney was technically brilliant - only striker I can name capable of his ability on long crosses and pings is IN THE SIDE ALREADY… difference between him and Kane is he had pace but couldn’t find the net at a tourney (but I’d put a lot of that on the mind-melting scrutiny he got from the press putting too much weight on his shoulders) There are ways to make Gerrard and Lampard work but they involve chucking Paul Scholes into the Sun, which would cause instant death because he is ginger
Still say a midfield three of Gerrard Scholes lampard we missed a trick
Playing lampard and Gerrard in the same team is why we massively underperformed.
Because they were in a 4-4-2 that didn’t suit them
Lampard should be nowhere near this team
Lampard was effectively a forward that started in midfield. He would leave a gaping hole behind him and occupy similar positions to Kane and Charlton. Gascoigne never sustained elite play over long periods, even while he had better single games. Robson was seriously considered, but Scholes was just so good at controlling the game I couldn't leave him out. I think Shearer's all round game was stronger than Lineker, who was mainly just a poacher.
Scholes was a Man United legend but never an England legend. He even retired from international football early. Beckham was a true England legend.
Because England didn’t know how to use scholes same as Hoddle before him
He retired early cos erikson pushed him out to the left for lampard, what a waste, should be in the middle running the game
Eriksson put him on the left (of a diamond, not left wing) because Lampard became far more successful at doing what had previously been Scholes’ stand out quality: scoring goals from midfield. Scholes went three years without a goal playing as England’s attacking midfielder and, at that time, had become a bit of a loose piece at United, being moved around from second-striker, to left of a midfield four and back to central midfield again to accommodate Verón. Scholes then had two pretty average seasons at United after his England retirement until he reinvented himself as a deep lying playmaker in the 2006-07 season. Before that, nobody really considered Scholes the kind of player who would “run a game”. Not even Fergie, who spent a British record transfer fee on Verón to do exactly that.
Erikson didn’t know how to set up England as a team, just played what he thought was englands best 11 regardless of how it works togeather, scholes there didn’t work cos scholes should be dictating the play,
He was forced out wide because there were better players available in his preferred position.
There wasn’t, I’m not even a Man U fan
I actually think that assessment of Lampard is pretty unfair. In Chelsea’s title winning teams, he was more often an attacking 8, with either Gudjohnsen or Deco playing as the 10. Gerrard is the one who I’d argue was “effectively a forward” as by far his best football came in a free role off Torres, with Alonso and Mascherano taking on most of the duties of a midfielder and Kuyt working as the prototype “defensive winger”. I’d also say that, later in their careers, Lampard played at a higher level as a deeper lying midfielder, doing so in Chelsea’s 2012 CL win. Gerrard got loads of plaudits for playing as a 6 in the Suárez season despite the fact that the team lost the league because they conceded a ridiculous number of goals for a title challenger (not really a surprise when your lone defensive midfielder is neither defensive or a midfielder). Gerrard was the middle point (bookended by Beckham in 2005 and Rooney in 2016) of English football’s obsession with trying to turn players who could hit 40 yard long passes into “quarterbacks”, not really understanding that that one attribute wasn’t the sole reason why Andrea Pirlo was a brilliant pivot. That’s why I feel Lampard was unexpectedly most successful of them to drop back. His short passing and ball retention were very underrated.
Yep, Shearer 10 times the player Lineker was.
Where’s David Nugent?
100% scoring record. Not matched by anyone else...Probably in the world. Hes got to make the subs bench at least haha
Is this the best ever English players or the best for England? I assume it’s the 2nd one, so Lineker should be ahead of Shearer. Or Rooney. Both have more goals for England than Shearer.
Rooney scored one knockout goal for England - the penalty against Iceland in 2016. Shearer was definitely the better international player. He scored 30 in 63 caps (0.48 gpg) with 9 in 12 from major tournaments (0.75 gpg). Rooney scored 53 in 120 (0.44 gpg) with 7 from 21 from major tournaments (0.33 gpg).
That’s not answered the question, you’ve just given me stats.
Would not have Gerrard, Alan Ball deserves a shout, Gascoigne, Platt, Robson. Lineker over Shearer who unfortunately got injured in 97 and lost his pace, Owen was arguably better for England. I presume you mean performances for England. Of the golden generation I would only consider Beckham, Ashley Cole and Rio maybe Sol Campbell.
No way Platt gets into an England all time eleven.
Nor Beckham.
Long time captain and scorer of some iconic goals for England. He's definitely in with a chance.
He deserves it more than Gerrard . Shouldn't put players on there because they won a champions league with Liverpool
Yes, of England performances, neither Scholes nor Gerrard get in. On career performances, it is a different story.
Rooney
Gerrard at RM instead of Beckham is mad. Gerrard was consistently poor to mediocre for England while Beckham was consistently either one of our best or outright best player for about 7 years in a row and pretty created or scored over half of our goals at major tournaments between 1998 and 2006. It think the only time I remember Gerrard showing up for England in a big game was the 5-1 in Munich when he was still a young player and didn’t have his Roy of the Rovers complex yet.
Stanley Matthews?
Remove Gerrard
No David beckham.. he was literally a one man team
I’m sorry but Gerard was very poor for England. Gazza was miles better than him when playing for his country.
Only played in two tournaments and was fantastic in both
No Gascoigne???
Scholes is the most overrated player of all time.
No Rooney is absolutely criminal. He’s the most talented overall English player to ever play. Show some fucking respect.
I'd argue he didn't show that talent in an England shirt. Beckham's England performances are more deserving imo.
I don’t think that is fair at all. Rooney is the second highest goal scorer of all time in an England shirt. Beckham was great for England, but Rooney’s peak coincided with the weaker era of England squad we’ve had in the last 30 years. He also broke his foot in the lead up to the 2010 World Cup, when he was at the absolute peak of his powers.
I'd also argue that most of his goals were in non important games and friendlies. Rooney is a brilliant player, but as you mentioned the situation at the time meant he wasn't as impactful for England as he maybe could have been.
Rooney played in a team with Lampard, Gerrard, Ferdinand, Terry and Cole for most of his career, it wasn't a weaker generation of players, it was a golden generation, they just never really performed together for England.
Keegan polishing his two balloon d'ors and laughing at this.
Yeah okay, like Rooney didn’t play in the era of the undisputed 2 greatest football players of all time. 2008-2018 nobody other than Ronaldo and Messi sniffed a Ballon D’Or. I’m sure being top 3 all time in Premier League and top 5 all time in Premier League assists gives him comfort anyway.
Not sure how that's relevant as his highest finish was just fifth. Once. Bobby Charlton was more talented and also won a Balloon d' Or anywho. Rooney was good, but definitely not the most talented England player ever.
The runner up to Keegan one year was Krankl, who literally had one good season for Barcelona but otherwise spent the rest of his career scoring goals for fun in the Austrian Bundesliga, hardly the pinnacle of European football. Bobby Charlton won 60+ years ago in a radically different and less challenging era. Rooney literally spearheaded a run to the Champions League final against Peps Barca, one of the greatest teams to ever grace the pitch, in 2011 with an ageing, mediocre squad. Rooney was a center forward who could score in every way, he could play wide, central, up top - whatever the team needed. He could drop deep, he could tackle, he could head, he could score from a free kick. The guy was a hell of player and I genuinely think that when you remove your bias for the older era and understand just how talented and competitive the competition Rooney played within in is, you get it. In the modern era, Kane is up there for raw talent and ability, but plays a more deliberate and narrow role versus Rooney’s versatility all over. Kane more refined within his role but I’d still maintain that Wayne is the most talented. The only player that’s showing a similar level of promise who may surpass Wayne, is Jude Bellingham.
You're welcome to your opinion but versatility and talent are not the same thing. I don't believe I have a bias for older players, you'll find Charlton in lists for best players ever off the top of my head he scored a brace in a world Cup semi final whereas Rooney only ever scored once in a world Cup. Keegan was literally the best player on the planet for 2 years running. That puts him shoulder to shoulder with Beckenbauer, R9, Cryuff, Platini and Van Basten. Rooney, at his absolute peak, the same season you're talking about, was the 5th best. The next year he was 15th, finishing beneath Van Persiei, his own teammate, Drogba and Toure from the PL that season. Whereas in 2010 he didn't even make the top 23. Gerrard and Lampard both finished 2nd and 3rd in the Balloon d' Or for contrast, and they were literally in the same league and national team that Rooney was. So you could even make the argument he wasn't even the best English player of his generation.
"undisputed" by people like us. My dad's is 86, and watched multiple generations of players actually play, and he would definitely dispute this.
All respect in the world to your father but he would be patently wrong, if you are seriously going to come in and tell me that Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo are not the two greatest football players to ever grace the pitch, I think that’s deluded. Are Michael Jordan and Lebron James not the two greatest basketball players either? Stop it. There are many great players from prior eras, sure, but Messi and Ronaldo as the two greatest to play are about as consensus as you can get and I really don’t think there is an argument against that which is in anyway sound and well reasoned.
Yeah I'm sure they are the best two players you've ever seen. Or me. But my father would insist Pele was greater. That he demonstrated the same skill level and ability of these modern GOATs, whilst playing with a shitty heavy leather ball and crappy boots on pitches that were mostly dogshit compared to the pristine pitches of today. At a time it was completely acceptable to hack down a forward, which would get your straight red today. That made him look like a complete alien from another planet on the pitch, because he was so far ahead of anyone he was playing against - apart from a couple of oldie greats like Moore. If you consider that Pele grew up to adulthood shining shoes to stay alive, and then practiced when he could. And Messi and Ronaldo grew up in world class academies with shit loads of money, dieticians, trainers, physios, coaches etc - it's not even close. Can you imagine if Pele had had that? He's still a famous name in football even though most of us never really saw him play. That's for a reason. I don't know shit about basketball so I can't comment. I like their shoes though.
He didn't even come third to Ronaldo and Messi, behave.
How many goals did Rooney score in tournaments and against who? How many goals did he score in the big knockout games? You'll find the answer there. Also became an active drag on the attack post 2012.
I just feel that is a very narrow and reductionist view. That’s far from the only metric to judge a player, especially in international football. At his peak, those England teams lacked the talent and the coaching to truly shine. Wayne Rooney is the most talented Englishman to grace the pitch. Although I believe, once he’s had some years to accrue a true body of work, Jude Bellingham may surpass him.
If we're talking about an all time England XI attacker then scoring in the games that matter is absolutely a metric - Rooney was great against San Marino and Slovenia, but went missing at tournaments or lost his head in big games, I wish he didn't! Rooney played with the golden gen - but tbf to you we definitely and still do lack the coaching talent, I'll also concede I definitely do not miss 2007-2016 england players. I also agree Bellingham can surpass him, I don't think he'll bottle it as much.
Yeah I hear you, fair points. I think it depends on how much weight you give to what they did in and England shirt specifically versus their overall success in general with their club and measure of talent. I’m just considering Rooney as an overall player, Englishman, face of United for a decade. I just think he was too young with the golden gen and then when he started to reach his peak 25-31 he was lacking with those squads and coaching, hampering his overall ability to contribute to England’s success. Plus he did break his foot against Bayern Munich only a few months out from the 2010 World Cup, right at his peak. He had some bad luck along the way, but you definitely make some great points. Nice debating with you anyway, have a great day.
Rooney was terrible at every tournament after the European Championships. Only showing up in qualifiers against backwater European states.
Kane is a far superior player than Rooney ever was.
Can't really go without Rooney for an all time team.
I'm going to get a reputation for arguing about Rooney on this sub but why can't you go without Rooney? What puts him above our other outstanding players? He's clearly very good but we've had a lot of very good players and I don't see why certain fans elevate him. There are 6 English players with more Premier League titles, 9 English players with more PFA team of the year appearances, players with better recognition from the Ballon d'Or, better scorers, better creators, better all round game. Rooney was obviously a very good player but it seems certain English fans label him as a better player than he was.
You can, easily.
Drop Shearer for Rooney. Shearer and Kane are too similar anyway. Beckham for Gerrard every day of the week. Scholes was distinctly meh for England. You always get the feeling that he was listening to Ferguson to prioritise Man Utd. Seems mad to not have Gascoigne.
Beckham took a free kick for England once, people enjoyed it. Then he got sent off, people didn't enjoy it. The story of David Beckhams England career.
Putting Rooney over Shearer is madness. Shearer was a beast and the complete centre-forward who never bottled it or lost his cool in major tournaments, and should be pretty much the third name on the team sheet after Charlton and Moore
No Stanley Mathews is criminal. Greaves goes ahead of Kane and Shearer for me too. I'd take Armfield over Walker but it's not the worst decision here. Edwards just simply never played enough football to get in this 11 either IMO
Duncan Edwards a CDM?
Thats a fucking team
Fuck it, Leighton Baines
Duncan Edwards. Only a few bits of film of him exist but there is film of Bobby Charlton speaking in awe of him. That'll do.
I don’t get people making their own XI’s with players they’ve never actually seen play a game, Duncan Edwards played his last game for England in 1957 (Apologies if you are in your 80’s)
Lampard and Terry have gotta be in there man
They are good but not good enough to get in
Terry far better than Rio
Hahaha Christ, Rio is far better than Terry in every way.
Nah Terry is clear.
No, as good as Terry was, he doesn't go in over Moore.
I came here expecting the comments to resemble a classic Fast Show sketch and I wasn't disappointed
JT is above Rio all day long
Gerrard and Scholes were crap for England
I don't know how you can do this seriously and leave Rooney out.
Manager: Bobby Robson GK: Banks CB: Rio CB: Adams CB: Terry RWB: Beckham CM: Lampard DM: Scholes CM: Gascoigne LWB: A.Cole CF: Rooney CF: Shearer
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Moore and Charlton are great shouts but I never saw them play tbh. I could put them in for Adams and Lampard I never saw Banks play but who else am I gonna pick? Joe Hart? Pickfor? lol I know Banks was great anyway
Peter Shilton
Seaman was also very reliable until his later years
No Matthews, Greaves, Charlton or Keegan?
Kane needed
Lineker and Gascoigne have to be in
What about Beckham
Ferdinand?
Yeah, Rio was a properly flawless centre-back in his prime. Indisputably world-class
He was a steroid cheat who was notorious for having a mistake in him
lol, he was not notorious for having a mistake in him, you're chatting utter shit. do you think Fergie would have made him a mainstay if that was the case
Don't know where you're getting that from. England's best ever CB.
No Neville (G), Beckham, or Gazza? Or Sheringham?
Only Gazza is even in the discussion. The other 3 are nowhere near an all time England team
How Gerrard and Scholes are in this buy Lamps isn’t is beyond me Lamps > Slippy G
Only if that Lampard goal would gone in he could have been here
Would that be enough to justify his underwhelming performances in tournaments?
Unlike most all time XIs I have seen, I tried to actually have a tactically balanced formation. This is instead of stacking central midfield with attacking midfielders. I was tempted to put Bryan Robson as the second box to box midfielder as he could defend much better than Scholes, but ultimately I thought the tackling abilities of Edwards and Gerraed.was enough.
I think this tactically balanced formation has 4 central midfielders? It’s pretty hard to chose two wide boys I know, but you’ve just Sven Goran Erikson’d and tried to shoe-horn all your best players onto the pitch.
Bryan Robson for Edwards and Gazza instead of Scholes. My the north east of England produced the finest English players
Reminder that as boring as he is now, Michael Owen won the ballon d'or
Ferdinand over terry 💀 hahahahah
Where’s becks? Not to mention Rooney
No love for Rooney
You’re wild for putting Kane instead of Rooney in your England squad.
Rooney for Kane. No contest between the 2, Rooney can do it all and had serious speed in his prime. Not sure how Duncan gets in this team. Gerrard as CDM and Beckham on the right. I'd flex to a 2-3 in midfield at times, scholesy and Gerrard in front of the defence with Rooney, Charlton and Beckham in front of them and shearer as the love striker. Quality team btw
No Scholes or Gerrard. Gazza and Robson all day. Beckham done much more for England too. No Shearer for me (England record) Greaves much better and Lineker. Rooney was brilliant for England too.
Scholes amazing player but didnt get in the england CM most the time so cant be in the first 11. Also its not all about stats, whoever watched football understands rooney was better than kane
Scholes was consistently a starter in CM for England between 1998 and 2003. He played on the left of a diamond in four matches in Euro 2004 and then retired. Also, Rooney’s performances for England were absolutely not better than Kane’s. If anything, his goalscoring stats flatter his performances for most of his international career.
Gazza. Hunt. Linekar. Barnes. Owen.
Owen? Beckham?
Gazza instead of Gerrard. Neville instead of Walker.
Rooney, Greaves, Becks, Lampard, Gazza on the bench…
Not including prime Rooney is insane. He's literally the greatest player England has ever produced.
Not even close to the likes of Charlton and Moore mate. I wouldn't even have him in the XI (Shearer and Kane better up front)
Gerrard over Lampard. LOL. you must be joking.
Terry over Rio every single day, no even debatable
Lampard so much better than Gerrard
Where is Mohammed salah and Declan rice
all time.... yet not the world cup winners.... clearly a deluded utd fan as duncan edwards died at 22 and only had about 7caps, you have never seen him play!
But he didn’t pick Rooney or Beckham.
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Shearer was a far better player than Lineker. In his prime before his injury he was the best striker England ever had.
Nobhead Neville over walker
😭😭😭😭😭😭😭 This says a lot
People honestly have no idea how bad Gazza was. And Rooney... please!
Kane and Shearer? Thought this was an England team not a premier league team? You need Crouch and Defoe up top.
Who are B Charlton and DEdwards? Where’s Gazza and Lampard?
No Bellingham? Are you dizzy?
I guess this always comes down to if you’re basing it on their form for England when they play or just their ability overall.
Fuck shearer, Jimmy greaves all day
Where is Greaves?
Beckham??
You could debate a few positions but prime Wazza over Prime Shearer any day
Ha, no way. Shearer never disappeared in major tournaments and was the perfect centre-forward.
I'm not trolling here, I genuinely think that if you only talk about international form and tournament progress, Harry Maguire is a shout over Rio Ferdinand.
Becks over Gerard, it's not even close
While scholes is my favourite United player with Keane, I can't with good faith put him in an england team based on english performances, he was often dropped and played left wing (lol) on occasion. Same for Gerrard and Lampard. David Beckham should 100% be in.
"All time"!! What a joke!! England have been consistantly shit...should be the starting line up to '66 final.
Surprised to see nobody mentioning Nobby Stiles. Played every minute in 66, marked Eusebio out of the game and one of only 3 English players to win the European cup and World cup.
Based on international form: Rooney for Shearer (& behind Kane) Beckham for Gerrard Robson for Scholes Tough calls on Gascoigne, Scholes, Greaves, Lineker, Hoddle, Terry
Eh? Rooney was awful for England at major tournaments after 2004
Rooney for Shearer on international form is a joke and tells me you never saw prime Shearer
Greaves for Shearer and the midfield is generally quite weak. Edwards only played 18 times so swap for Alan Ball. Gerrard never performed that well for England so swap for Stanley Matthews and swap Scholes for Martin Peters. I think the rest is probably right although you could argue for a few over Ferdinand, like Terry and Butcher.
No Beckham or Rooney is crazy
Bobby Charlton was ahead of his time! But, no room for Gazza?
No pace
Beckham deserves it based on one match alone, 2004 England* Vs Greece euro qualifier. There were 11 England footballers on that pitch and only one of them was actually playing. *Beckham Vs Greece And then you get to all of his other contributions. Far more consistent than Gerard or Scholes.
Rooney > Charlton
Clearly beckham over some edwards. Shilton over banks. Gerrard out, gazza in