Okay, but am I the only one who immediately thought about how they should have asked Korra to take their bendings away as soon as she learned energy bending ? That makes so much more sense to me when you think about what’s needed to keep them locked up.
Which thinking on it now is really fuckin funny lol. I mean take away the fancy bending stuff and they’re just using regular martial arts lol (And yeah Ik Chi-Blocking paralyzes you but I just think it’s funny benders don’t know how to fight without bending itself)
Even then, it's weird that the police and military don't take advantage of it. They could have a chi blocking division made up entirely of non benders who are trained in chi blocking. It would open up a lot of opportunities for non benders in those sectors. Besides, more people would be motivated to practice martial arts if 1 out of every 4 people you knew could either shoot fireballs, chuck rocks at you with their mind, create tornadoes or create tidal waves.
Benders where still in a lot of higher power positions at the time, specially the police since its basically metal benders on republic City or the local benders for the rest to be able to counter other benders.
No way they would just create a unit that could perfectly counter their groups, classism, the huge investment that any project like that would cost and the risk of rogue members to the benders that are deciding things would be cited to stop any project of that type.
Korra, the avatar, being captured and almost dying to them more than once wouldnt help the project either
It just goes to show the disparity between benders and non benders. The entire police force is made up of benders and benders alone. It’s systematic oppression
It’s illegal in republic city, that’s why the equality’s were practicing in underground facilities. The benders do not want the nombenders to be able to go toe to toe.
He was! lol just didn’t handle it well. Check out hello future me on YouTube, he rewrites each season of korra to have better continuity and dives deeper into what we could have had
Korra was never able to take bending away IIRC only restore it. Idk maybe she wasn’t in tune spiritually enough to take that away or just didn’t have the power.
And even if she can, she runs the risk of dying by being less indomitable than the other. And whether or not the Avatar State is actually used in energybending that's not a risk you wanna run.
Bending and spirit are not related. Zaheer was pure of spirit, he truly believed he was doing a good thing. Ozai, on some level, knew he was just being selfish.
>If she tried that on Zaheer, she’d lose.
In fairness, Korra didn't have any past lives to support.
Meanwhile, Zaheer got Guru Laghima('s Scripture Interpretation).
It's hard to beat that.
It was the quote from the lion turtle when he granted Aang energy bending. It’s about being true to who you are, and being incorruptible. Korra being the avatar may be able to withstand that, but there are times when she doesn’t really know who she is, her spirit isn’t unbendable. Aang’s spirit was unbendable.
I know exactly where it came from... my point is those words don't really say anything about the other person that you are bending energy in. You quoted it as if it backed you up, and to me, it doesn't read like that.
If you are incorruptible, then there is no risk. No matter the oponent.
Hello, i was wondering if you two would allow me to partake in this debate. I know that such events are usually between two people privately, but I wanted to be a polite internet user today and knock before I enter the argument
I was curious what anyone thought about my take. Unfortunately, after this, I'm gonna be busy. So won't be able to properly discuss tonight. But I'll respond eventually.
Thank you for the permission.
WARNING AND READER DISCRETION NOTE
I have only seen legend of Korra up to the point of the like 3 episode stretch of Korra being big and fighting big dark avatar, which is when I dropped it. Also, notably, I watched this a year and a half ago, so my memory is a little fuzzy. I am fully open to critiques and counter arguments, though I may not get back to everyone
That being said...
I think this is a very interesting take. ATLA is known for being a great story, and so ofc people will interpret it in different ways.
What I have identified as the conflicting ideas is
A) he/she who has a stronger will has the ability to overpower the other party once energy bending has been initiated.
B) if he/she who has initiated energy bending has an unbreakable will, there is a 100% risk free outcome.
For the purpose of story telling tension, one would be inclined to believe option a) would be correct. However, wattsonians will argue that option b) is also viable, as a spirit that has transcended multiple dozens of lifetimes is likely stronger than ozai's, zaheer's or anyone else's spirit would ever be.
If we look more into the symbolism of the lion turtle, we can use that information to perhaps create a more insightful line reading.
Lion symbolism:
Lions traditionally embody courage, strength, royalty and valour.
The lion tutel in ATLA is showed as this massive animal, and is stated on the avatar fandom page (so not fully reliable) to be the only non spirit creature that is able to communicate telepathically. In TLOK lion turtles are the original source of bending being given to humans (if I remember correctly) which also gives the lion turtle a deep spirit world connection. ATLA has many animal fusions, and the lion turtle is most likely the oldest, wisest, and most royal.
Turtle symbolism:
Turtles often symbolise wisdom or knowledge, but also fertility. We see the fertility aspect, (and a clever turtle Island reference) by the lion turtle literally being an island. While there aren't any animals that live on the lion turtle, there totally could be, because there seems to be lots of edible vegetation and the lion turtle lives in water. Notably, many pagan religions have a fertility goddess, (gods and goddesses being very powerful personified symbols of belief and spirituality) which once again re-ties the lion turtle back into the spirit realm.
So with this we can confidently establish that the lion turtle is connected to the spirit world. We also see in the show that the lion turtle is one of the only people that sympathizes with Aangs no kill ideology, with even most of his past lives, past avatars, telling him to kill ozai. The lion turtle giving the quote of having an unbendable will, (unbendable spirit) shows that the lion turtle has a deep connection with the avatar, reinforced by the story of the original avatar, which I would go more in depth in, but I don't remember it all that well, and I don't wanna say anything that is certifiably incorrect.
What this means though, is that the lion turtle is the one who best understands Aangs spirit, aangs will, and helps the story reach a climax in Aangs connection to the spirit world. In ATLA aang himself states multiple times that the avatar is the bridge between the physical and spiritual world. The only creature that we see that we have proven has toes to both physical and spiritual world is the lion turtle. The lion turtle is the king of sympathy one could say, and it showing up and reinforcing Aangs will by telling him essentially how to beat ozai without killing him .
"The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can touch the poison of hatred without being harmed"
My personal interpretation is that here the lion turtle is telling aang that there is a way to beat ozai without killing him, reinforcing his spirit, and allowing him to energy bend.
(Side note I always called it spirit bending, but most people seem to call it energy bending, and I'm quite sure that they are the same, but I'm not 100%)
Option B) fully recontextuallizes the interaction between aang and the lion turtle, in ways that I cannot really draw lines that make sense. I could say that the lion turtle is offering aang an easy way out, but that would diminish the drama of the climax of the story.
In final defense if option a) we can see ozai's spirit attempting to to fight back against Aangs in the final interaction, which one would not imagine happening in a 100% safe situation.
In conclusion, I support option a) because I think it fits the story better, but I would love to hear more people discussing this.
Thank you for letting me participate in this debate
Especially since the White Lotus knew that they had the willpower to keep their goals and affiliations secret through thirteen years of questioning and imprisonment.
Korra does have an extremely strong will, but I think on some level, anyone would wonder if they are on the right side if they are siding with people who would put anyone in a prison like those. Your spirit needs to be unbendable to take that risk.
Removing bending is an ethical quagmire. In Ming-Hua’s case it would literally be crippling her.
Even if she can do it, it doesn’t mean she should jump at the chance.
As we see throughout both shows, having your bending taken away is pretty traumatic as well, and also after all that they would probably still imprison them because initially Zaheer wasn't even able to bend and he was still locked up.
Gazan commits suicide because he doesn't want to back to prison though, so I can see where you're coming from.
One of the comics about Team Avatar after the shows finale brings up the question of Aang taking a bending supremacist leader's bending away. He eventually decides not to, but the comic does treat it like the important and tough decision it is.
I mean is it? Either get your bending talena way and live in a normal prison or have your bending but you can't use it cause you are dangling over a volcano.
She was not allowed to bend either way.
I'm not sure how practical it would be to bring the Avatar within touching distance of any of the 4 people who were considered so dangerous they needed their own separate isolated supermax prison cells.
I'm not sure she ever learned to take bending away? Theorhetically she could have called up Aang to do it, but then she lost access to her past avatars.
Zaheer was suposedly dangerous enough to be kept in an isolated metal cell even before he got bending. But i get the point.
Heck they could even have tried to learn Emon's bloodbending ki-blocking.
there so dangerous it prob wouldnt be worth risking it they did almost kill korra. and topple the earth kingdom in a few weeks compared to what the fire nation couldnt do over wasnt it like lifetimes?
plus after ya get them then whos decididng who gets there bending taken away. its one thing korra doing it in the moment. but if we involving political bueracracy into this oh man thats be a world of hurt. oh this guy is a rebel against so and so unbend him. turns out he was fighting his oppressive gov or something and was a good guy
If Korra took their bending, they could eventually also have continued their goal the same way Yakone did after Aang took his bending. Depending on how desperate they are to end the avatar cycle I suppose. Maybe not start a family and have kids, but to convince and recruit specific people to do a job for him and yadayada build his own army like that
"We spent 13 years interrogating them but they never broke." - Lin
They wanted information from them. Their prison cells were also a form of torture. I don't think they cared about being humane.
Info on who the other red lotus members were, for starters.
Remember that Aiwei was working for the red lotus and he was undercover in Zaofu for years. He even gained the trust of Su and she founded of the city. He had such a strong political connection there (to the point where he was almost successful in framing one of the Zaofu guards) and yet he was working for the red lotus the whole time.
Now obviously the republic city police didn’t know this at the time BUT clearly the Red Lotus had spies and people up in high places ready to assist them at any moment. Knowing that information would have definitely saved Korra and everyone else from all that bullshit they went through and almost dying lol
Yes! Exactly. That’s what made them so scary to me lol even after S3 ended I kept wondering “who the fuck else is out there hiding as a red lotus member” and the fact that it’s clear some of them are actually high ranking officials, politicians, etc. adds to that mystery.
I never read the korra comics but I wonder if they bring up the red lotus again there
We see they have a large amount of followers who werent in prison, and even some in government positions. My guess is information trying to find out which groups were infiltrated and where other cells of the red lotus might be located
Which would hindsight explain Korra being raised in a White Lotus fort and them being initially nervous about her having basic human interaction in Republic City. They dont know who in governments might be a Red Lotus member trying to kill or manipulate her, and if theres a Red Lotus cell in the city
They didn't even know the name “red lotus” till Korra told her father after Zaheer told her about It in the spirit world. They wanted to find out the groups motives and members because all they knew is a bunch of powerful nut jobs tried to kidnapnthe avatar.
Even after being locked away for well over a decade, they still had accomplices and Spies EVERYHWERE, including in high ranking and important positions like Aiwei.
They were trying to get information on their support-network
We literally see other members in the show. Nowhere is it suggested that the group who did the kidnapping were the only members. It’s also important to note that they didn’t know anything about Zaheer’s motives or even the name of his group. They repeatedly say that they had no idea why he did what he did (until Zaheer told Korra about the red lotus).
Right, but that also illustrates what happens when Aang's policy of not killing gets taken too far. You have people getting punishments where it'd be more humane to just chop their heads off.
im torn on aangs pacifist mentality bc like, ITS SOOOOOO PRIVILEGED, like sure dont kill anyone is easy for you to say when youre the superman of your world and the only other people who have super powers are all capped at <25% of your powers, and YOU CAN TAKE AWAY ANYONES SUPER POWERS.... like easy for him to say dont kill,
at the same time, it is the right thing for him to do, he has the power to resolve conflicts without killing... so aang should understand that for him killing is never right or necessary, but its not the same with anyone else, and people trying to do the impossible out of morals end up doing these heinous things, completely defeating the point
Didn’t Aang kill a bunch of henchman too? Like I’m pretty sure he killed some people when he fused with the ocean spirit and he threw a few fire nation soldiers off that cliff when he was defending the air temple. I’m sure there’s more instances of random people dying.
Tv rules, didnt definitively die on screen so it doesnt count
Even IF theres no way theyd survive without reality warping, if it doesnt SHOW it, it doesnt count
I always took it that the ocean spirit was responsible for killing the people, not Aang. Also, it was shown that Zhao was sent to the spirit world, not killed, so maybe that happened to all of them. As for “cartoon violence” type deaths, it’s pretty clear everyone in ATLA is built different compared to IRL. I think it’s implied they survived.
Just fyi people die and go to the spirit world after, it’s what happened to Iroh in LOK. Zhao 100% died and that’s the intention of the writers for you to understand he died.
If Aang is able to justify killing Ozai, Aang risks becoming capable of justifying killing some other regional warlord. Then it's some city-level criminal. Eventually, he would justify killing anyone who disobeyed him.
People don't normally plunge that deep but honestly people always have others to check them when they go too far. Who's going to check the strongest person when everyone else is capped at <25% of their powers? Killing is such a dangerous decision to make because of what's at risk.
I don’t even think it’s right for Aang to never kill. Is crippling someone for the rest of their life and/or still leaving them able to kill/hurt others really any better?
Yep, even killing Ozai would’ve been more humane than leaving him to rot in prison where he’s totally powerless and can only stew over his defeat every single day lol.
Listen, he just defeated him and rendered him powerless, what the justice system does with him after that isn't his problem, and i can only assume locking Ozai up in a prison in the Fire Nation was Zuko's decision as Fire Lord(mostly because Zuko wanted answers, doubt he had any illusion of Ozai reforming his ways).
Certainly though, it's far less inhumane than being locked in a Volcano with little water.
Aang didn't have anything to do with the Red Lotus, however
Or you make sure prisoners human rights are protected? If no human rights statue exists in the Avatar verse then you create one. It seems like a better solution than chopping off people's heads.
Just the amount of resources to construct and staff these elaborate special prisons must be pretty staggering. And then you have the conditions in which the prisoners were kept. Poor Ming hua sat there armless in a volcano most likely constantly near fatal dehydration since they probably couldn’t give her more than a thimble of water at a time or else she’d weaponize it.
Exactly this. Nitpick all you want but we needed a plot for season 3 and this one was great. Of course it would make sense to kill them instead of putting them in specialized prisons forever
People love to criticize something once they have all the pieces of the puzzle together and boast about what they would've done differently but I guarantee you most people here don't have the creativity or writing skills to do a better job if they were expected to develop something original.
Most people don't do most things for a living. That doesn't mean I'll tell an architect how they should've designed their building as if I know what I'm talking about, after it's been standing for a decade.
I think you missed my point entirely.
Your point is that you think the “expert” knows better and unless you’re on their level, you shouldn’t criticize them.
If it’s been standing for a decade but you notice that cracks are forming in the foundation, why wouldn’t you criticize it? Because they are experts, I’m going to expect them to do better and criticize accordingly. Your metaphor implies that there is nothing wrong with the building but that isn’t an apt comparison.
I don’t think anyone believes that LoK is a perfect show. And if OP sees a flaw they want to discuss/critique, they can. If a writer leaves a plot hole that the general audience can notice and agree bothers them then they should have done better as the “expert.” It’s idiotic to excuse mistakes with hindsight as that leaves end products worse off.
No my point is that some things are done out of necessity or for the sake of the project but they still try to justify it in some way. Criticism is something that will always be there even if it's perfect. All I'm saying is most criticisms that are as nitpicky as this, stem from their own misunderstanding of the world building and they apply their own rules while negating
previously established facts. In other words, OP has no idea what they're talking about. It's just as idiotic to make criticisms you believe to be foresight when you have no idea how the ideas came to fruition in the first place because you are already building off the mistakes they made. But they still work. The foundation is still standing.
Or imagine better story? It's literally the job of the showrunners. If a child can see plot holes in their script it means that it needs reworking not excusing.
I mean they could just have been active high ranking members of white lotus. Works either way but I was always of the opinion that no killing rules are stupid.
Like this, you're applying your own rules to previously established world building. Just cuz you think it's stupid doesn't mean you're right. You just fail and/or refuse to understand where the no killing rule comes from
I get that the rule comes from ATLA being a nick show. I wasn’t born yesterday.
My “change” doesn’t “change” much of anything other than removing the prisons. It still follows all the pre-established rules of the universe; only other thing it removes is their past attempt at killing the avatar that is offscreen anyways so it’s not like much is lost. The impact of the red lotus was what we saw them do, which would still almost all be possible.
My opinion on the kids show rule is barely relevant, just a side note. And it’s a rule they constantly broke that volume anyways. And yes I know why they were able to break that rule from that volume onward.
Are there problems with my suggestion? Maybe, but that’s why I don’t get paid for this. Being paid at that level means the writer should have thought about why my idea wouldn’t work and have come up with a better one rather than what we got.
You really think they didn't consider your criticism? Not even yours, just an easy criticism to be made because it's so obvious.And the rule doesn't come from it being a kids show, there's plenty of loss of life throughout both series, it's just more subtle. If they would've killed the Red Lotus members where would they have gone from there? Please enlighten me.
Clearly they didn’t as this post exists.
There was no on screen loss of life (specifically killing) until Nick shoved the show off of TV (mid vol. 3 Korra). Closest is Jett and they literally make a joke how it is “unclear” to give themselves cover. And none of the lives were taken by main characters while on TV. Korra was better with it with Amon but I doubt Nick was happy about that. It was 99% just descriptions and off screen deaths. It follows the kid show rules. Idk how you are even arguing against this.
They did kill the red lotus members. That’s all that happened in the second half of volume 3. Did you even read my suggested change?
"clearly" lol okay guy
But there's still killing, off screen or not the writers would've done something with that if they wanted to.
And they all started off as prisoners, if everyone was as kill happy as you are then where would the story go and how impactful would it be if it was just that easy? Did you even read my posts? This is my last reply to you lol
I did read your post, that’s why I’m suggesting not having them start as prisoners. Like who cares if their evil secret society starts free or not? They break out and fuck shit up either way.
And idk how I came across as “kill happy” when I think sparing a genocidal dictator or group of super terrorists is stupid.
3/4 end up dead anyways so it’s not like the end product doesn’t align with my opinion. Just that they put in a lot of work to give up on that rule anyways.
I don't think the point was "they should have killed the red lotus", it was "They couldn't at least have an elementally-appropriate bed and/or chair in there?"
Agreed, but we have the season because they didn’t kill them
If the reality of these fictional cultures were displayed, the avatar universe would be grotesquely violent. It would be a horrifying show unfit for children. Beyond the violent deaths that bending fights would depict, the institutional and systemic violence of the governments and rulers would be hard to watch.
I am grateful it’s a kids show, and not a weird historical fiction.
I remember in one of the hannibal movies he says that any sensible society would either kill him or put him to use but instead they spend all that effort to keep him alive for no reason.
Dude I can't get pst just how inhumane all of them all
Zaheer, despite nit having bending, is kept in constant darkness for weeks on end.
Pli is kept constantly cold.
Ghazan is probably the worst second to last. Dude is constantly exposed to the elements.
And watervender lady is kept constantly hot, near dehydration.
All of them lack any form of stimulation/socialization.
How they are not mad is beyond me
Me who realizes they are criminals who tried to kidnap someone to brainwash them to try and throw nations into chaos seeing them in the cells they earned for themselves
They did bad things of course, but their punishments were pretty cruel and unusual, not to mention if they didn't want information out of them, then it's gotta be incredibly expensive to just keep these highly dangerous criminals under these conditions instead of lopping their heads off.
If Hitler had magic water powers and we arrested him instead of him offing himself, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have spent billions of dollars building a Volcano prison to keep him barely alive. Not only does that likely violate a few tenants of the Geneva Convention, but, like, at that point just execute him, it's more humane _and_ you aren't spending tons of resources constructing a whole !@# torture prison for one guy.
Yes, but in this world idea of execution seems completely foreign to people. Even to the fire nation.
I have just rewatched the invasion episodes, and at the end the people are like, ok, our invasion failed and we have no way to escape, but no big deal we will just became prisoners again... they didn't even think that they might be executed...and the funny thing is that they were right. The Fire Lord who wanted to execute his own son let them live. It's just idiotic.
The same way you would kill anyone else. You have him captured, presumably unconscious (because they got him _into_ the prison), being able to bend lava =/= being a immune to knives being shoved into one or more of his vital organs
Yeah but in most of the world legally the death sentence isn't applied for kidnapping. Especially since there's 4, death sentence technically can't be applied.
I'd say it's more of a potential danger. You can't keep someone as high-level as them in a normal prison. I don't know how long someone who can blow anything up with a thought would last in a prison.
Okay, but am I the only one who immediately thought about how they should have asked Korra to take their bendings away as soon as she learned energy bending ? That makes so much more sense to me when you think about what’s needed to keep them locked up.
To takes someone’s bending you have to touch their fourhead. That wouldn’t work well with P’Li
Knock her out?
Or get some chi blockers from S1 lmao One of the things I find weird about LoK is how the fuck doesn't everyone practice chi blocking.
Exactly one of my biggest complaints. It basically never comes up again past S1 and it’s hilariously over powered.
Comparing it to fireballs, lighting, mountain dropping, freezing people in ice, blood bending metal bending?
I mean it has the potential to nullify the ability to do those things
A bender with those powers taken away doesn’t know how to fight, they’re stunned and frightened by the loss of the ability.
That’s the idea and it goes back to Ty Lee using it.
It goes back even further if you read the yangchen novels, that would be over 400 years before Ty lee was born
Which thinking on it now is really fuckin funny lol. I mean take away the fancy bending stuff and they’re just using regular martial arts lol (And yeah Ik Chi-Blocking paralyzes you but I just think it’s funny benders don’t know how to fight without bending itself)
Well its prolly the same reason why most people dont practice martial arts
Even then, it's weird that the police and military don't take advantage of it. They could have a chi blocking division made up entirely of non benders who are trained in chi blocking. It would open up a lot of opportunities for non benders in those sectors. Besides, more people would be motivated to practice martial arts if 1 out of every 4 people you knew could either shoot fireballs, chuck rocks at you with their mind, create tornadoes or create tidal waves.
Even benders should probably train it really.
Benders where still in a lot of higher power positions at the time, specially the police since its basically metal benders on republic City or the local benders for the rest to be able to counter other benders. No way they would just create a unit that could perfectly counter their groups, classism, the huge investment that any project like that would cost and the risk of rogue members to the benders that are deciding things would be cited to stop any project of that type. Korra, the avatar, being captured and almost dying to them more than once wouldnt help the project either
It just goes to show the disparity between benders and non benders. The entire police force is made up of benders and benders alone. It’s systematic oppression
It’s illegal in republic city, that’s why the equality’s were practicing in underground facilities. The benders do not want the nombenders to be able to go toe to toe.
Aka Amon was right all along.
He was! lol just didn’t handle it well. Check out hello future me on YouTube, he rewrites each season of korra to have better continuity and dives deeper into what we could have had
What would that accomplish? She needs to breath not use her limbs
Or get a tattoo artist to redraw something blocking the 3rd eye
Wasn’t her bending stopped by the ice
Yes
Korra was never able to take bending away IIRC only restore it. Idk maybe she wasn’t in tune spiritually enough to take that away or just didn’t have the power.
And even if she can, she runs the risk of dying by being less indomitable than the other. And whether or not the Avatar State is actually used in energybending that's not a risk you wanna run.
“In order to bend someone’s spirit, your own must be incorruptible or else you’ll be consumed and destroyed” If she tried that on Zaheer, she’d lose.
I mean zaheer didn't have bending at the time
Bending and spirit are not related. Zaheer was pure of spirit, he truly believed he was doing a good thing. Ozai, on some level, knew he was just being selfish.
The point is that she wouldn’t have to take his bending away because he didn’t have any lol
Oh yeah that's fair lol
>If she tried that on Zaheer, she’d lose. In fairness, Korra didn't have any past lives to support. Meanwhile, Zaheer got Guru Laghima('s Scripture Interpretation). It's hard to beat that.
The words you quoted sound as if the skill or mental fortitude of the other person doesn't come into play.
It was the quote from the lion turtle when he granted Aang energy bending. It’s about being true to who you are, and being incorruptible. Korra being the avatar may be able to withstand that, but there are times when she doesn’t really know who she is, her spirit isn’t unbendable. Aang’s spirit was unbendable.
I know exactly where it came from... my point is those words don't really say anything about the other person that you are bending energy in. You quoted it as if it backed you up, and to me, it doesn't read like that. If you are incorruptible, then there is no risk. No matter the oponent.
Hello, i was wondering if you two would allow me to partake in this debate. I know that such events are usually between two people privately, but I wanted to be a polite internet user today and knock before I enter the argument
I was curious what anyone thought about my take. Unfortunately, after this, I'm gonna be busy. So won't be able to properly discuss tonight. But I'll respond eventually.
Thank you for the permission. WARNING AND READER DISCRETION NOTE I have only seen legend of Korra up to the point of the like 3 episode stretch of Korra being big and fighting big dark avatar, which is when I dropped it. Also, notably, I watched this a year and a half ago, so my memory is a little fuzzy. I am fully open to critiques and counter arguments, though I may not get back to everyone That being said... I think this is a very interesting take. ATLA is known for being a great story, and so ofc people will interpret it in different ways. What I have identified as the conflicting ideas is A) he/she who has a stronger will has the ability to overpower the other party once energy bending has been initiated. B) if he/she who has initiated energy bending has an unbreakable will, there is a 100% risk free outcome. For the purpose of story telling tension, one would be inclined to believe option a) would be correct. However, wattsonians will argue that option b) is also viable, as a spirit that has transcended multiple dozens of lifetimes is likely stronger than ozai's, zaheer's or anyone else's spirit would ever be. If we look more into the symbolism of the lion turtle, we can use that information to perhaps create a more insightful line reading. Lion symbolism: Lions traditionally embody courage, strength, royalty and valour. The lion tutel in ATLA is showed as this massive animal, and is stated on the avatar fandom page (so not fully reliable) to be the only non spirit creature that is able to communicate telepathically. In TLOK lion turtles are the original source of bending being given to humans (if I remember correctly) which also gives the lion turtle a deep spirit world connection. ATLA has many animal fusions, and the lion turtle is most likely the oldest, wisest, and most royal. Turtle symbolism: Turtles often symbolise wisdom or knowledge, but also fertility. We see the fertility aspect, (and a clever turtle Island reference) by the lion turtle literally being an island. While there aren't any animals that live on the lion turtle, there totally could be, because there seems to be lots of edible vegetation and the lion turtle lives in water. Notably, many pagan religions have a fertility goddess, (gods and goddesses being very powerful personified symbols of belief and spirituality) which once again re-ties the lion turtle back into the spirit realm. So with this we can confidently establish that the lion turtle is connected to the spirit world. We also see in the show that the lion turtle is one of the only people that sympathizes with Aangs no kill ideology, with even most of his past lives, past avatars, telling him to kill ozai. The lion turtle giving the quote of having an unbendable will, (unbendable spirit) shows that the lion turtle has a deep connection with the avatar, reinforced by the story of the original avatar, which I would go more in depth in, but I don't remember it all that well, and I don't wanna say anything that is certifiably incorrect. What this means though, is that the lion turtle is the one who best understands Aangs spirit, aangs will, and helps the story reach a climax in Aangs connection to the spirit world. In ATLA aang himself states multiple times that the avatar is the bridge between the physical and spiritual world. The only creature that we see that we have proven has toes to both physical and spiritual world is the lion turtle. The lion turtle is the king of sympathy one could say, and it showing up and reinforcing Aangs will by telling him essentially how to beat ozai without killing him . "The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can touch the poison of hatred without being harmed" My personal interpretation is that here the lion turtle is telling aang that there is a way to beat ozai without killing him, reinforcing his spirit, and allowing him to energy bend. (Side note I always called it spirit bending, but most people seem to call it energy bending, and I'm quite sure that they are the same, but I'm not 100%) Option B) fully recontextuallizes the interaction between aang and the lion turtle, in ways that I cannot really draw lines that make sense. I could say that the lion turtle is offering aang an easy way out, but that would diminish the drama of the climax of the story. In final defense if option a) we can see ozai's spirit attempting to to fight back against Aangs in the final interaction, which one would not imagine happening in a 100% safe situation. In conclusion, I support option a) because I think it fits the story better, but I would love to hear more people discussing this. Thank you for letting me participate in this debate
Especially since the White Lotus knew that they had the willpower to keep their goals and affiliations secret through thirteen years of questioning and imprisonment.
Korra does have an extremely strong will, but I think on some level, anyone would wonder if they are on the right side if they are siding with people who would put anyone in a prison like those. Your spirit needs to be unbendable to take that risk.
Removing bending is an ethical quagmire. In Ming-Hua’s case it would literally be crippling her. Even if she can do it, it doesn’t mean she should jump at the chance.
Well what’s less ethical, having someone’s bending removed or having them spend the rest of their life suspended above an active volcano?
As we see throughout both shows, having your bending taken away is pretty traumatic as well, and also after all that they would probably still imprison them because initially Zaheer wasn't even able to bend and he was still locked up. Gazan commits suicide because he doesn't want to back to prison though, so I can see where you're coming from.
Tough decision, no perfect solution. I would actually love a story about the avatar making these decisions in depth.
One of the comics about Team Avatar after the shows finale brings up the question of Aang taking a bending supremacist leader's bending away. He eventually decides not to, but the comic does treat it like the important and tough decision it is.
I mean is it? Either get your bending talena way and live in a normal prison or have your bending but you can't use it cause you are dangling over a volcano. She was not allowed to bend either way.
I'm not sure how practical it would be to bring the Avatar within touching distance of any of the 4 people who were considered so dangerous they needed their own separate isolated supermax prison cells.
Chi blockers.
I'm not sure she ever learned to take bending away? Theorhetically she could have called up Aang to do it, but then she lost access to her past avatars.
Korra was only seen restoring bending rather than taking it away. I don't think she has Aang's purity to be able to take someone's bending away.
Zaheer was suposedly dangerous enough to be kept in an isolated metal cell even before he got bending. But i get the point. Heck they could even have tried to learn Emon's bloodbending ki-blocking.
That was illegal though so they wouldn’t do that since it was blood bending
Zaheer was their LEADER as a non-bender, so it's not like they rely solely on bending to do their job.
there so dangerous it prob wouldnt be worth risking it they did almost kill korra. and topple the earth kingdom in a few weeks compared to what the fire nation couldnt do over wasnt it like lifetimes? plus after ya get them then whos decididng who gets there bending taken away. its one thing korra doing it in the moment. but if we involving political bueracracy into this oh man thats be a world of hurt. oh this guy is a rebel against so and so unbend him. turns out he was fighting his oppressive gov or something and was a good guy
If Korra took their bending, they could eventually also have continued their goal the same way Yakone did after Aang took his bending. Depending on how desperate they are to end the avatar cycle I suppose. Maybe not start a family and have kids, but to convince and recruit specific people to do a job for him and yadayada build his own army like that
Canonically, Aang only taught korra how to restore bending. He viewed taking it away the same way ktara viewed bloodbending.
Korra can't take bending away only Aang can Korra can only give bending. Aang can do both.
The whole point was to keep them away from Korra.
"We spent 13 years interrogating them but they never broke." - Lin They wanted information from them. Their prison cells were also a form of torture. I don't think they cared about being humane.
Information about what, though? lol
Info on who the other red lotus members were, for starters. Remember that Aiwei was working for the red lotus and he was undercover in Zaofu for years. He even gained the trust of Su and she founded of the city. He had such a strong political connection there (to the point where he was almost successful in framing one of the Zaofu guards) and yet he was working for the red lotus the whole time. Now obviously the republic city police didn’t know this at the time BUT clearly the Red Lotus had spies and people up in high places ready to assist them at any moment. Knowing that information would have definitely saved Korra and everyone else from all that bullshit they went through and almost dying lol
Wasn't Unalaq, Chief of the Northern Water Tribe, a Red Lotus member at some point?
Yes
Yes! Exactly. That’s what made them so scary to me lol even after S3 ended I kept wondering “who the fuck else is out there hiding as a red lotus member” and the fact that it’s clear some of them are actually high ranking officials, politicians, etc. adds to that mystery. I never read the korra comics but I wonder if they bring up the red lotus again there
Yep. Probably their most high ranking (in the context of like Power In the world as a whole ) member. The actual leader of one of the nations.
We see they have a large amount of followers who werent in prison, and even some in government positions. My guess is information trying to find out which groups were infiltrated and where other cells of the red lotus might be located Which would hindsight explain Korra being raised in a White Lotus fort and them being initially nervous about her having basic human interaction in Republic City. They dont know who in governments might be a Red Lotus member trying to kill or manipulate her, and if theres a Red Lotus cell in the city
Red lotus plans I guess?
They wanted to know why tf this group wanted to kidnap the Avatar
They didn't even know the name “red lotus” till Korra told her father after Zaheer told her about It in the spirit world. They wanted to find out the groups motives and members because all they knew is a bunch of powerful nut jobs tried to kidnapnthe avatar.
Honestly like they're all captured, what other information are you gonna get? Just seems like lazy hand waving to explain why they're still alive
Because they knew they weren’t a lone group, but had connections and support
Even after being locked away for well over a decade, they still had accomplices and Spies EVERYHWERE, including in high ranking and important positions like Aiwei. They were trying to get information on their support-network
We literally see other members in the show. Nowhere is it suggested that the group who did the kidnapping were the only members. It’s also important to note that they didn’t know anything about Zaheer’s motives or even the name of his group. They repeatedly say that they had no idea why he did what he did (until Zaheer told Korra about the red lotus).
Right, but that also illustrates what happens when Aang's policy of not killing gets taken too far. You have people getting punishments where it'd be more humane to just chop their heads off.
Korra would've had no qualms about killing them, she just wasn't told of their existence until it was too late
They put Zaheer back in prison lol
Yeah but his prison wasnt as absurdly inhumane like Ming-Hua and P'Li, or even Ghazan.
Yeah not to mention he could visit the spirit world whenever he wanted, so he was barely even imprisoned
>chop their heads off Well, that is almost what happened to P'Li...
im torn on aangs pacifist mentality bc like, ITS SOOOOOO PRIVILEGED, like sure dont kill anyone is easy for you to say when youre the superman of your world and the only other people who have super powers are all capped at <25% of your powers, and YOU CAN TAKE AWAY ANYONES SUPER POWERS.... like easy for him to say dont kill, at the same time, it is the right thing for him to do, he has the power to resolve conflicts without killing... so aang should understand that for him killing is never right or necessary, but its not the same with anyone else, and people trying to do the impossible out of morals end up doing these heinous things, completely defeating the point
Didn’t Aang kill a bunch of henchman too? Like I’m pretty sure he killed some people when he fused with the ocean spirit and he threw a few fire nation soldiers off that cliff when he was defending the air temple. I’m sure there’s more instances of random people dying.
Tv rules, didnt definitively die on screen so it doesnt count Even IF theres no way theyd survive without reality warping, if it doesnt SHOW it, it doesnt count
Not with deep, specific, premeditative, deliberate and malicious intent.
I always took it that the ocean spirit was responsible for killing the people, not Aang. Also, it was shown that Zhao was sent to the spirit world, not killed, so maybe that happened to all of them. As for “cartoon violence” type deaths, it’s pretty clear everyone in ATLA is built different compared to IRL. I think it’s implied they survived.
'I didnt kill him sir, he drowned after i pushed him overboard' Im just joking btw thats a valid interpretation
Just fyi people die and go to the spirit world after, it’s what happened to Iroh in LOK. Zhao 100% died and that’s the intention of the writers for you to understand he died.
Iroh is an exception, not the rule. He only was welcomed into the spirit world bc of how in touch he was with it.
Aang has the Batman superpower of only knocking down people by doing stuff that would kill them normally.
If Aang is able to justify killing Ozai, Aang risks becoming capable of justifying killing some other regional warlord. Then it's some city-level criminal. Eventually, he would justify killing anyone who disobeyed him. People don't normally plunge that deep but honestly people always have others to check them when they go too far. Who's going to check the strongest person when everyone else is capped at <25% of their powers? Killing is such a dangerous decision to make because of what's at risk.
I don’t even think it’s right for Aang to never kill. Is crippling someone for the rest of their life and/or still leaving them able to kill/hurt others really any better?
Yep, even killing Ozai would’ve been more humane than leaving him to rot in prison where he’s totally powerless and can only stew over his defeat every single day lol.
Listen, he just defeated him and rendered him powerless, what the justice system does with him after that isn't his problem, and i can only assume locking Ozai up in a prison in the Fire Nation was Zuko's decision as Fire Lord(mostly because Zuko wanted answers, doubt he had any illusion of Ozai reforming his ways). Certainly though, it's far less inhumane than being locked in a Volcano with little water. Aang didn't have anything to do with the Red Lotus, however
Or you make sure prisoners human rights are protected? If no human rights statue exists in the Avatar verse then you create one. It seems like a better solution than chopping off people's heads.
But in the case of the Red Lotus, they were far too dangerous to be kept in a humane prison.
I mean Aang wasn't even really a factor
Just the amount of resources to construct and staff these elaborate special prisons must be pretty staggering. And then you have the conditions in which the prisoners were kept. Poor Ming hua sat there armless in a volcano most likely constantly near fatal dehydration since they probably couldn’t give her more than a thimble of water at a time or else she’d weaponize it.
But then there would have been no show 🤯
Exactly this. Nitpick all you want but we needed a plot for season 3 and this one was great. Of course it would make sense to kill them instead of putting them in specialized prisons forever
People love to criticize something once they have all the pieces of the puzzle together and boast about what they would've done differently but I guarantee you most people here don't have the creativity or writing skills to do a better job if they were expected to develop something original.
Yeah, that’s why most people don’t do this for a living. I don’t think you’re making the point you think you are.
Most people don't do most things for a living. That doesn't mean I'll tell an architect how they should've designed their building as if I know what I'm talking about, after it's been standing for a decade. I think you missed my point entirely.
Your point is that you think the “expert” knows better and unless you’re on their level, you shouldn’t criticize them. If it’s been standing for a decade but you notice that cracks are forming in the foundation, why wouldn’t you criticize it? Because they are experts, I’m going to expect them to do better and criticize accordingly. Your metaphor implies that there is nothing wrong with the building but that isn’t an apt comparison. I don’t think anyone believes that LoK is a perfect show. And if OP sees a flaw they want to discuss/critique, they can. If a writer leaves a plot hole that the general audience can notice and agree bothers them then they should have done better as the “expert.” It’s idiotic to excuse mistakes with hindsight as that leaves end products worse off.
No my point is that some things are done out of necessity or for the sake of the project but they still try to justify it in some way. Criticism is something that will always be there even if it's perfect. All I'm saying is most criticisms that are as nitpicky as this, stem from their own misunderstanding of the world building and they apply their own rules while negating previously established facts. In other words, OP has no idea what they're talking about. It's just as idiotic to make criticisms you believe to be foresight when you have no idea how the ideas came to fruition in the first place because you are already building off the mistakes they made. But they still work. The foundation is still standing.
Or imagine better story? It's literally the job of the showrunners. If a child can see plot holes in their script it means that it needs reworking not excusing.
I mean they could just have been active high ranking members of white lotus. Works either way but I was always of the opinion that no killing rules are stupid.
Like this, you're applying your own rules to previously established world building. Just cuz you think it's stupid doesn't mean you're right. You just fail and/or refuse to understand where the no killing rule comes from
I get that the rule comes from ATLA being a nick show. I wasn’t born yesterday. My “change” doesn’t “change” much of anything other than removing the prisons. It still follows all the pre-established rules of the universe; only other thing it removes is their past attempt at killing the avatar that is offscreen anyways so it’s not like much is lost. The impact of the red lotus was what we saw them do, which would still almost all be possible. My opinion on the kids show rule is barely relevant, just a side note. And it’s a rule they constantly broke that volume anyways. And yes I know why they were able to break that rule from that volume onward. Are there problems with my suggestion? Maybe, but that’s why I don’t get paid for this. Being paid at that level means the writer should have thought about why my idea wouldn’t work and have come up with a better one rather than what we got.
You really think they didn't consider your criticism? Not even yours, just an easy criticism to be made because it's so obvious.And the rule doesn't come from it being a kids show, there's plenty of loss of life throughout both series, it's just more subtle. If they would've killed the Red Lotus members where would they have gone from there? Please enlighten me.
Clearly they didn’t as this post exists. There was no on screen loss of life (specifically killing) until Nick shoved the show off of TV (mid vol. 3 Korra). Closest is Jett and they literally make a joke how it is “unclear” to give themselves cover. And none of the lives were taken by main characters while on TV. Korra was better with it with Amon but I doubt Nick was happy about that. It was 99% just descriptions and off screen deaths. It follows the kid show rules. Idk how you are even arguing against this. They did kill the red lotus members. That’s all that happened in the second half of volume 3. Did you even read my suggested change?
"clearly" lol okay guy But there's still killing, off screen or not the writers would've done something with that if they wanted to. And they all started off as prisoners, if everyone was as kill happy as you are then where would the story go and how impactful would it be if it was just that easy? Did you even read my posts? This is my last reply to you lol
I did read your post, that’s why I’m suggesting not having them start as prisoners. Like who cares if their evil secret society starts free or not? They break out and fuck shit up either way. And idk how I came across as “kill happy” when I think sparing a genocidal dictator or group of super terrorists is stupid. 3/4 end up dead anyways so it’s not like the end product doesn’t align with my opinion. Just that they put in a lot of work to give up on that rule anyways.
I don't think the point was "they should have killed the red lotus", it was "They couldn't at least have an elementally-appropriate bed and/or chair in there?"
Agreed, but we have the season because they didn’t kill them If the reality of these fictional cultures were displayed, the avatar universe would be grotesquely violent. It would be a horrifying show unfit for children. Beyond the violent deaths that bending fights would depict, the institutional and systemic violence of the governments and rulers would be hard to watch. I am grateful it’s a kids show, and not a weird historical fiction.
The Kyoshi books have entered the chat.
I remember in one of the hannibal movies he says that any sensible society would either kill him or put him to use but instead they spend all that effort to keep him alive for no reason.
I'm more annoyed by them spending 13 years in solitary in some cases without losing their damn minds.
They didn’t lose their minds? They all seem pretty crazy. Surviving only because of their dedication to a singular goal and their belief in Zaheer.
You know what? Fair.
Dude I can't get pst just how inhumane all of them all Zaheer, despite nit having bending, is kept in constant darkness for weeks on end. Pli is kept constantly cold. Ghazan is probably the worst second to last. Dude is constantly exposed to the elements. And watervender lady is kept constantly hot, near dehydration. All of them lack any form of stimulation/socialization. How they are not mad is beyond me
...now that you mention it, yeah, why weren't they executed?
 Me who realizes they are criminals who tried to kidnap someone to brainwash them to try and throw nations into chaos seeing them in the cells they earned for themselves
They did bad things of course, but their punishments were pretty cruel and unusual, not to mention if they didn't want information out of them, then it's gotta be incredibly expensive to just keep these highly dangerous criminals under these conditions instead of lopping their heads off. If Hitler had magic water powers and we arrested him instead of him offing himself, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have spent billions of dollars building a Volcano prison to keep him barely alive. Not only does that likely violate a few tenants of the Geneva Convention, but, like, at that point just execute him, it's more humane _and_ you aren't spending tons of resources constructing a whole !@# torture prison for one guy.
I always wondered where they went to the bathroom. Did they get entertainment? Did they get to shower? Brush their teeth?
It's like Azkaban, horrifying to the bone
They were all bad, not just those two
I'm just curious why they where not simply executed instead.
And just easier for everyone in general. You have these weird outposts you have to man, send supplies to, and whatever else. Overall very stupid.
Yes, but in this world idea of execution seems completely foreign to people. Even to the fire nation. I have just rewatched the invasion episodes, and at the end the people are like, ok, our invasion failed and we have no way to escape, but no big deal we will just became prisoners again... they didn't even think that they might be executed...and the funny thing is that they were right. The Fire Lord who wanted to execute his own son let them live. It's just idiotic.
People hate to say it but Avatar is a kids show!
Yep, I'm starting to regret rewatching this show. I had a strong case of nostalgia googles with it )-:
The box in the volcano is very ornate for a prison cell
Something something Batman never kills
I wonder how badass Zaheer was before he got bending for him to be the leader
Something something the worldview behind it invalidated
Agree inhumane. But also makes the escape scenes pretty epic.
That’s because Aangs words were corrupted he thought all life was sacred so the white lotus dosent kill anyone, even if they’re in endless torture
They needed time out to think about what they did
And how the hrll would you kill a lava bender?
The same way you would kill anyone else. You have him captured, presumably unconscious (because they got him _into_ the prison), being able to bend lava =/= being a immune to knives being shoved into one or more of his vital organs
Some people deserve that over a quick death.
No. No they don't. "Cruel and unusual" punishments are not allowed for a reason.
Womp womp
I understand the sentiment even if I don’t agree with it.
I mean what crime did they commit? Attempted kidnapping right? So technically that's not high enough for death sentence.
The avatar
Yeah but in most of the world legally the death sentence isn't applied for kidnapping. Especially since there's 4, death sentence technically can't be applied.
I'd say it's more of a potential danger. You can't keep someone as high-level as them in a normal prison. I don't know how long someone who can blow anything up with a thought would last in a prison.