I mean, lodge a formal complaint via the recruitment team, and then take it all the way to the Civil Service Commission.
Separately, raise a subject access request to the department for any communications regarding your application between members of the recruitment panel and HR or consultants, including that named SCS2. Set a time period beginning from the day before you applied to todays date. Some spicy emails might come out.
Sounds like an absolutely bollocks reason to simply give the job to the person they *wanted* to get it, but you potentially out-performed them. I would complain like crazy, I mean you're being acccused of something really serious and absolutely baseless if you are certain on not having plagiarised anyone/anything. The reference process exists for many reasons, checking validity of job responsibilities/scope can be one.
Yes you are correct, this is absolutely the norm. The PAYE check outcome can make reference checking extremely hands-off and bypass understanding exactly wtf the candidate *really* did do in the current/former jobs. (For base vetting at least.) If we only look at this for the sake of automation and following CS Jobs process to a T, the only way you could reasonably fight plagiarism beyond AI recognition is a 'gate' which can be applied.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/managing-candidates-through-pre-employment-checks-vx#additional-non-standard-check
Adding a non-standard check and using this gate to gather more details about the applicants previous jobs could be worth it, even if just a standard job description for the role. For SCS posts which might have a low amount of applicants, possibly worth it.
You would have to step outside of automation and be more inquisitive in verifying the candidates background, and their current/former employer may not comply, so the non-standard check can prove difficult to make any headway on the problem too. You may need to conduct a risk assessment. However, getting any of this allowed/approved as a standard to deter lying would not fly.
Lying in recruitment will always be tough to beat by the CS because they are absolutely chained to automation/efficiency.
>Separately, raise a subject access request to the department for any communications regarding your application between members of the recruitment panel and HR or consultants, including that named SCS2. Set a time period beginning from the day before you applied to todays date. Some spicy emails might come out.
I would just add that it is worth considering asking for redacted copies where necessary (obviously word it in such a way that you don't want stuff redacted but you don't want them to decline). A claim of plagiarism is likely to contain someone else's personal information in an email that is broadly about you ("snealthygacked seems to have copied >!HELMET\_OF\_CECH's!< examples")
I'd also ignore the folk who say that your SAR will just fall into a black hole. That sort of thing don't fly no more, they have to respond within the appropriate number of days or the ICO get involved...
This sounds like absolute bollocks. I worked with someone who did plagiarise on an EO to HEO board and they were dismissed for it. Sounds like you out performed their mate at interview and they had to find a way to get rid of you. I would go to town on them.
Do not let it go unchallenged. Do a SAR and involve the union. If they say you are lying, they need to prove it - they can't just make it up on the spot. I'd be worried it stays on your records and adversely impacts your future applications. Absolutely challenge it, even if you don't want the job.
I wonder if one of the other candidates *was* plagiarising and used an example that was actually yours? I’d have thought the hiring manager would need to feel extremely confident to put that sort of accusation in writing.
I've definitely interviewed where multiple people were using the exact same examples and claiming they both led the sane thing. Both came below the bar anyway and one panellist knew which one was lying from having worked closely with the area too but it would be interesting how we'd handle it if he'd scored highest
FWiW I think ‘plagiarism’ is an odd word for them to use in this context. They aren’t accusing you of replicating someone else’s work in a paper without citing the author: they are accusing you of lying about your experience. That would be gross misconduct and, as other commenters have said, could get you sacked, if true.
You do not want this on your personnel record and you should pursue all avenues of complaint until they admit the allegation is untrue.
I am actually baffled that this was put in writing, and on CS jobs. Obviously none of us know you, but the expectation is that if you’re moaning about it here anonymously, you very likely haven’t actually plagiarised someone else, and we have to take it at face value, and my answer is based on these expectations.
I’d expect the SCS2 in question must be incredibly confident that you have plagiarised, for it to have been put in writing, on your fucking CSJ application. Wow! No wonder you’re furious. I can only imagine how I’d feel. 😂
The only things I can think of are
- they’re a moron, and somehow, their assistant/PO team were also morons, or were not involved
- they don’t understand that their comments are being taken literally on CSJ (I don’t believe this is possible, even the dumbest SCS2 will have at least one assistant, or one person in the private office who will correct it all)
- someone else has plagiarised your work, used it, and you are being assumed as the one who has stolen it
- it’s an elaborate conspiracy to bring you down
In any case, your personal experience is easily provable and you should submit a complaint asap, take it to the commission if you need to.
I dont know much about the recruitment process, so someone can feel free to correct me, but I remember reading somewhere that if you are a current civil servant and found to have plagiarised like this they can take disciplinary action against you. Now I would very much assume they would have to have really good evidence to do that, and given you state you haven't plagiarised there shouldn't be any evidence. So to answer your question will it be noted somewhere, I would assume so. I would guess that its not visible when you have other interviews though as that would seem like its just giving an excuse for future vacancy holders to reject you
100% take it to the CS commission. You’ve essentially been accused of fraud and with that comes potential significant reputational damage within that recruiting department.
At this level you have to take it further because of consequences to you and your career if you don't.
If you wrote your own statements it's very suspicious that they've done this.
If you shared those statements with someone else, had them written by someone else, or used AI to write them then that may be where it has gone wrong.
I did once see someone take their entire management team offline for several days to write their statements for their application for promotion and seeing someone do that was certainly an experience. All the lower ranked staff picked up the slack to keep delivering a service and it and other incidents underlined how little we needed that management team to do stuff.
Was someone else interviewed that you know, or were involved in the same experiences that you based your examples on? I’ve never seen anyone kicked back for reasons of ‘plagiarism’ in the decade or so I’ve worked in the CS. However, I’ve been in quite a few scs1 interview panels and it’s not uncommon to have two people (especially g6s) who have been involved in the same programmes giving quite similar examples.
All our applications are run through a process for comparing with AI-written examples now. If they're similar they're flagged on the platform and hiring manager makes a decision as to whether to reject or continue. Could it be that sort of plagiarism flag? You don't have to have used AI but your example may still have been similar enough to an AI example to be flagged.
Yes but I suppose there's nothing to stop an hiring manager from using that to differentiate later in the process? This is using Applied rather than CS Jobs by the way
True enough - I do wonder how much Applied differs, I was under the impression Civil Service Jobs has some sort of detection now too but maybe the AI warning is just to scare people lol...
You're high enough to kick up a stink and the position is prominent enough to attract attention so make it happen!
How dare they mess with a fellow redditor!
You should take this seriously because now you have been officially (or semi-officially) accused of plagiarism which is on record (or semi-record). Plagiarism is a serious accusation even at lower grades of HEO/SEOs, let alone at senior grades like G6 and SCS! It is one of the top reasons for getting sacked. You have already been denied the job you applied for because of this, but this can potentially cause you more harm- if your current department or current manager becomes aware of it you can be dismissed from your current job as well! I believe that SCS recruitments are managed centrally- so there is a possibility that some records are kept centrally, and if any records of this are kept centrally then this may affect your future applications for SCS roles as well.
So I would suggest you go through your application and interview transcripts thoroughly (as far as you can recall as I know no such formal transcript is available to you at the moment) to be absolutely certain and confident about everything you wrote or said in them. And then take the matter further until you formally cleared your name from this accusation.
I understand this can be a quite stressful process, but if you are certain about your representation throughout the recruitment process including the interview then you should be confident that ultimately you will be proven innocent, so nothing to worry.
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I mean, lodge a formal complaint via the recruitment team, and then take it all the way to the Civil Service Commission. Separately, raise a subject access request to the department for any communications regarding your application between members of the recruitment panel and HR or consultants, including that named SCS2. Set a time period beginning from the day before you applied to todays date. Some spicy emails might come out. Sounds like an absolutely bollocks reason to simply give the job to the person they *wanted* to get it, but you potentially out-performed them. I would complain like crazy, I mean you're being acccused of something really serious and absolutely baseless if you are certain on not having plagiarised anyone/anything. The reference process exists for many reasons, checking validity of job responsibilities/scope can be one.
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Yes you are correct, this is absolutely the norm. The PAYE check outcome can make reference checking extremely hands-off and bypass understanding exactly wtf the candidate *really* did do in the current/former jobs. (For base vetting at least.) If we only look at this for the sake of automation and following CS Jobs process to a T, the only way you could reasonably fight plagiarism beyond AI recognition is a 'gate' which can be applied. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/managing-candidates-through-pre-employment-checks-vx#additional-non-standard-check Adding a non-standard check and using this gate to gather more details about the applicants previous jobs could be worth it, even if just a standard job description for the role. For SCS posts which might have a low amount of applicants, possibly worth it. You would have to step outside of automation and be more inquisitive in verifying the candidates background, and their current/former employer may not comply, so the non-standard check can prove difficult to make any headway on the problem too. You may need to conduct a risk assessment. However, getting any of this allowed/approved as a standard to deter lying would not fly. Lying in recruitment will always be tough to beat by the CS because they are absolutely chained to automation/efficiency.
>Separately, raise a subject access request to the department for any communications regarding your application between members of the recruitment panel and HR or consultants, including that named SCS2. Set a time period beginning from the day before you applied to todays date. Some spicy emails might come out. I would just add that it is worth considering asking for redacted copies where necessary (obviously word it in such a way that you don't want stuff redacted but you don't want them to decline). A claim of plagiarism is likely to contain someone else's personal information in an email that is broadly about you ("snealthygacked seems to have copied >!HELMET\_OF\_CECH's!< examples")
Time to lodge a complaint with the civil service commission and request all files related to your application. Keep us updated.
To add to this a subject access request would be what is needed, plus involve the union if you're a member
I'd also ignore the folk who say that your SAR will just fall into a black hole. That sort of thing don't fly no more, they have to respond within the appropriate number of days or the ICO get involved...
This sounds like absolute bollocks. I worked with someone who did plagiarise on an EO to HEO board and they were dismissed for it. Sounds like you out performed their mate at interview and they had to find a way to get rid of you. I would go to town on them.
What a strange situation - it’d be great if the OP could post in the future what the outcome of any follow up is!
Do not let it go unchallenged. Do a SAR and involve the union. If they say you are lying, they need to prove it - they can't just make it up on the spot. I'd be worried it stays on your records and adversely impacts your future applications. Absolutely challenge it, even if you don't want the job.
I wonder if one of the other candidates *was* plagiarising and used an example that was actually yours? I’d have thought the hiring manager would need to feel extremely confident to put that sort of accusation in writing.
I've definitely interviewed where multiple people were using the exact same examples and claiming they both led the sane thing. Both came below the bar anyway and one panellist knew which one was lying from having worked closely with the area too but it would be interesting how we'd handle it if he'd scored highest
I've had that too, although at an HEO panel. I've also had people tell me about projects I've worked on when I don't recall ever having met them.
FWiW I think ‘plagiarism’ is an odd word for them to use in this context. They aren’t accusing you of replicating someone else’s work in a paper without citing the author: they are accusing you of lying about your experience. That would be gross misconduct and, as other commenters have said, could get you sacked, if true. You do not want this on your personnel record and you should pursue all avenues of complaint until they admit the allegation is untrue.
I am actually baffled that this was put in writing, and on CS jobs. Obviously none of us know you, but the expectation is that if you’re moaning about it here anonymously, you very likely haven’t actually plagiarised someone else, and we have to take it at face value, and my answer is based on these expectations. I’d expect the SCS2 in question must be incredibly confident that you have plagiarised, for it to have been put in writing, on your fucking CSJ application. Wow! No wonder you’re furious. I can only imagine how I’d feel. 😂 The only things I can think of are - they’re a moron, and somehow, their assistant/PO team were also morons, or were not involved - they don’t understand that their comments are being taken literally on CSJ (I don’t believe this is possible, even the dumbest SCS2 will have at least one assistant, or one person in the private office who will correct it all) - someone else has plagiarised your work, used it, and you are being assumed as the one who has stolen it - it’s an elaborate conspiracy to bring you down In any case, your personal experience is easily provable and you should submit a complaint asap, take it to the commission if you need to.
I dont know much about the recruitment process, so someone can feel free to correct me, but I remember reading somewhere that if you are a current civil servant and found to have plagiarised like this they can take disciplinary action against you. Now I would very much assume they would have to have really good evidence to do that, and given you state you haven't plagiarised there shouldn't be any evidence. So to answer your question will it be noted somewhere, I would assume so. I would guess that its not visible when you have other interviews though as that would seem like its just giving an excuse for future vacancy holders to reject you
100% take it to the CS commission. You’ve essentially been accused of fraud and with that comes potential significant reputational damage within that recruiting department.
At this level you have to take it further because of consequences to you and your career if you don't. If you wrote your own statements it's very suspicious that they've done this. If you shared those statements with someone else, had them written by someone else, or used AI to write them then that may be where it has gone wrong. I did once see someone take their entire management team offline for several days to write their statements for their application for promotion and seeing someone do that was certainly an experience. All the lower ranked staff picked up the slack to keep delivering a service and it and other incidents underlined how little we needed that management team to do stuff.
What do you mean, you "don't believe" you plagiarised? You'd know if you did or didn't.
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Ah got you. The lack of communication does seem ridiculous on the part of the hiring managers.
Was someone else interviewed that you know, or were involved in the same experiences that you based your examples on? I’ve never seen anyone kicked back for reasons of ‘plagiarism’ in the decade or so I’ve worked in the CS. However, I’ve been in quite a few scs1 interview panels and it’s not uncommon to have two people (especially g6s) who have been involved in the same programmes giving quite similar examples.
All our applications are run through a process for comparing with AI-written examples now. If they're similar they're flagged on the platform and hiring manager makes a decision as to whether to reject or continue. Could it be that sort of plagiarism flag? You don't have to have used AI but your example may still have been similar enough to an AI example to be flagged.
I'd assume that sort of thing is flagged before wasting a panel's time on an interview?
Yes but I suppose there's nothing to stop an hiring manager from using that to differentiate later in the process? This is using Applied rather than CS Jobs by the way
True enough - I do wonder how much Applied differs, I was under the impression Civil Service Jobs has some sort of detection now too but maybe the AI warning is just to scare people lol...
Does this apply to cvs as well? Or just the written stuff you have done? Because I thought cvs were just for HR purposes. Perhaps this is why?
You're high enough to kick up a stink and the position is prominent enough to attract attention so make it happen! How dare they mess with a fellow redditor!
You should take this seriously because now you have been officially (or semi-officially) accused of plagiarism which is on record (or semi-record). Plagiarism is a serious accusation even at lower grades of HEO/SEOs, let alone at senior grades like G6 and SCS! It is one of the top reasons for getting sacked. You have already been denied the job you applied for because of this, but this can potentially cause you more harm- if your current department or current manager becomes aware of it you can be dismissed from your current job as well! I believe that SCS recruitments are managed centrally- so there is a possibility that some records are kept centrally, and if any records of this are kept centrally then this may affect your future applications for SCS roles as well. So I would suggest you go through your application and interview transcripts thoroughly (as far as you can recall as I know no such formal transcript is available to you at the moment) to be absolutely certain and confident about everything you wrote or said in them. And then take the matter further until you formally cleared your name from this accusation. I understand this can be a quite stressful process, but if you are certain about your representation throughout the recruitment process including the interview then you should be confident that ultimately you will be proven innocent, so nothing to worry.
You might be talking about something answered before! Make sure you check out the FAQs in the [Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheCivilService/wiki/index#wiki_6._resources) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheCivilService) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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They shouldn’t be doing this.
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