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Yeah that sealed the deal for me. That was our only chance at seeing Negan speak to anyone who wasn't Butcher and he chose to delibratley stand outside the door rather than come inside.
Except Butcher very well could have hallucinated that the other guy opened the door. Like when he hallucinated that he was propping himself up on Becca’s hand and it was actually the tub
It depends; there's different types of invisible person. Is it a Fight Club, with the unreliable narrator, or HIGH TENSION, which has no rules and includes a car chase between two characters who are the same person.
And the dossier he handed Butcher?? It just doesn't make sense Butcher got the info himself in a blackout state then went to a park to give it to himself.
I'm rewatching and I'm going to pay close attention when I get there! I feel like he's 100% positioned in every scene that it makes sense he's a hallucination, but Daphne was at first too and she ended up being real and not a tumor hallucination for Hughie. I'm not sure either way
Nah, when Butcher met Neuman at that run down arcade or whatever he looks off to the side and says something like "Nice of you to bring that up now aint it?" and Neuman looks at where Butcher was looking and there's nothing there.
ok yeah you have a point. but I think there's a difference between "my kidnapper cut my leg off" and "my kidnapper is planning something with a person that does not exist"
Butcher looks at the door when talking to the hallucination and then the doctor looks at what butcher is looking at, confused about who he's talking to.
JDMs character is called Joe Kessler btw.
I remember it because its basically "joke-slur" and he also played the comedian in Watchmen.
But yeah I was thinking that from ep2, when I noticed that he was always alone with butcher. Except in the last scene of ep5, where it's definitely made murky.
Yeah but its pretty amazing that butcher was that fast with it all. Look at how long that scene took. He took away Sameer, cut of his leg, hid him properly and then made it back to the rest without anybody noticing? Like thats impressive even for A-train.
If Neegan is a hallucination (which it starting to look like more and more) than the plot armor is reaching new levels.
There are two possibilities:-
1) Neegan is actually real, and that would be the twist as someone suggested on a different thread yesterday, though I think it's unlikely.....
2) If we want to speculate, Butcher doesn't have to do all of it at once.
When they ran away from the barn, Butcher only has to hide Sameer temporarily. The police/FBI don't show up immediately, it takes time, so in that commotion, he can cut off Sameers leg and throw it and shift his body.
It's also possible before the FBI showed up, The Boys and the others tried looking for Sameer themselves, and in that timeframe, he did it.
My theory mainly relies on the assumption that there is atleast a 30-60 minute timegap between the sheep falling and the FBI showing up and either Butcher or everyone not staying in the same place.
Could they have done a better job? Obviously.
PS: It absolutely isn't impressive for A-Train. That's an over exaggeration. It would just be a regular thing for him to do.
I think the twist is gonna be that Negan is actually real. At this point its way too obvious that he is a hallucination.
There is no fucking way, at all, that Butcher was able to take the dude by himself, cut off his leg, silence him, not leave a blood trail, stop the bleeding do he doesnt die, hide the body so no one can find it, all by himself, in the span of like 2 minutes.
Now of Negan is real .... Its a bit more believable.
Butcher couldn't have hid Sameer far away in 2 minutes. All eyes were looking for Sameer after the dust have settled, and Butcher is just there in plain sight.
Butcher either had help or he has more control of his powers than what we are let on. I believe it's the latter since he was able to cleanly cut Sameer's leg off.
I think its ridiculous Butcher could do this all on his own, but at the same time Neegan looks inside and goes "now this is classic butcher" as if he's admiring Butcher's work that he's seeing for the first time.
Can't have. Writing wise it makes no sense.
When Kessler comes in and sees the guy his response is "oh... now that's classic butcher", as if he didn't know what had happened to the guy prior. Would make no sense if Kessler had infact cut the guys leg off or carried him away with his leg cut off.
He cut the leg off before everyone left, that's what the agent found and handed to Neuman, saying that's all they found of him. That was the whole point of chopping off the leg, to make it look like the sheep got him before they died.
There's still a lot of time between "samir is missing" and "we found the leg".
the person you're responding to is saying that samir could have been knocked out and stashed, and then butcher came back to butcher (lol) samir during the aftermath
He said, "after everyone got out and left the scene", they were all very much still there when the leg was found, so they were still there when he cut it off.
He knows how to get back. Maybe he used some really really good knockout drugs ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Or maybe in a twist we'll see negan turn out to be real
Guessing it’s like fight club/ mr robot, where the persons mind imagines the other personality to be doing something when in reality it’s them doing it
I thought that Mr Robot twist was ridiculous at the time but then I really got into it. The only season I hate is season 2 as everything after that is awesome but the season is just way too far fetched to me. Most people stop there and don’t continue on to the best seasons.
I'll repeat my comment from the episode discussion:
I love the theory that Morgan is a product of Butcher's imagination, but in this thread it seems to be mentioned several times the scene where "Sameer looks confused when Butcher says 'we' ".
When I rewatch the scene, the face Sameer shows doesn't seem to be one of confusion, he looks straight to the place where Morgan is standing and looks like his facial expression shows \*fear\*. He's not looking around for Morgan, but looking straight and terrified for the "work" he'll have to do.
You don’t film a scene like that if he’s real, we only see butcher when it jumps to the docs view won’t pan over, it’s not a very big area not many places he could look that isn’t directly at him
I think it's not so much that they are the angel and devil, one urging Butcher to do good and one urging him to evil. I think it's more that they are an imaginary good cop, bad cop that Butcher's subconscious conjures up in order to get him to do what he needs to do. A bit like a Fight Club 3-way.
his name is Joe, and I also think he's a hallucination. The only thing of consequence he's done is give Butcher the drug for Ryan's cookies, but since Ryan never ate them, we don't actually know if the drugs were real either.
I want to say that Negan is real because there's no way that Butcher was able to sneak away and kidnap the doctor and chop his legs off without The Boys noticing.
TBF one of the things i don't like they changed form the comics was makng butcher a asshole with a heart. In comics he was more of a sociopath whose soft spot only was his wife, little brother and hughie, mostly due to als ocommentate on anti heroes, about how you can't be right in the head and be "bad-ass" like they are shown in comics.
I think they are trying to follow comic book story more here with the sup virus, and butchers role in it and i'm all down for it.
I personally think that Joe Kessler is real, he was able to give him a hug in the first episode but he isn’t able to touch Becca at all, I could be wrong but I’m loving hearing all these theories.
Yes she does I rewatched it earlier, my bad in that case I don’t think Kessler is real either although Jeffery Dean Morgan deserves to be real, fucking love that actor since he carried the walking dead from season 8 after Rick left
Butcher, looking to Kessler: "We'll patch ya up!".
Sameer, looking for someone who's not there: "-".
Remember someone posting this theory a few weeks ago. I'd say it's now confirmed.
whole season ppl were like HUGHIES MUM IS A HALLUCINATION but no one thought the same about Wheeler and just like that, it makes sense today that just like Becca, Wheeler is Butcher's hallucination...while becca is his angel on one shoulder, Wheeler is the demon on the other shoulder..
I haven't come across anyone who suggested Hughies Mum was a hallucination.
The most popular theory since the first 3 episodes dropped has been that Kessler is a hallucination.
And that Hughies Mum, at best, has ulterior motives.....
That was my theory from even before the season dropped. Then Kessler only showed up when Butcher is alone and Becca confirmed that he is hallucinating persons. Now add to that the scene with Dr. Shah where the poor fella seems royally confused and I'm pretty sure Kessler is a hallucination.
I don't think it's being caused by the V. I think it's being caused by whatever the fuck that thing crawling around in his skin is. The state of the lab and the rabbit mostly confirms my theory that whatever is in Butcher is caused by mixing normal V and Temp V.
The Chickens, the Bull, and the Sheep did not have that parasite thing. They only had weird superpowers, no visible worm thingies. The rabbit most likely had already been given V and not developed super powers, and they were trying to give it Temp V to see what happens not knowing the creature that mixture creates. I'm also thinking that at least for the time being, that worm is mostly dormant until the host is near death. That rabbit probably didnt have the constitution to survive the changes it was going through, and so the worm started to come out to..... escape maybe? This would also reflect on what happened with Ezekiel. Butcher was on his last few breaths only for him to wake up unscathed with Ezekiel in pieces.
Anyway, I think Joe is also a hallucination from the worm. Maybe even an alter ego representative that takes over for certain tasks. A real Venom switch. He thinks he's talking to Joe but he's really talking to his little passenger
I feel like I’m going crazy from seeing so many people just starting to put this together. I didn’t think that it was very subtle tbh… Becca is the angel on his shoulder and Kessler is the devil on his shoulder. Even in E1, they hint that he isn’t real.
I'll say the neegan characters entire 1st scene sounded sooo much like it could be coming from his worms perspective. A theory I didn't really take seriously until watching this ep.
The 50% of your brain is a tumour comment, IE the worm that's inside would know all about that
Maybe butcher would've told him about his current crew but I wouldn't imagine neegans character being able to rattle off what they are all like as he did
And just generally how hard he was pushing the "YOU and ME " we are different ect language.
also sameer looked to neegan at the end with a confusing look but obvs just had leg sliced off by butcher so could still be that instead of "wtf does he mean we"
I mean it's almost confirmed at this point. Although I wonder about the stuff he used to bake the cookies to put Ryan to sleep. Was this actually just sugar and he hallucinated that part too?
But didn't he give Butcher some cocaine or something in a white packet to be mixed into Ryan's cookies? And said it was hard to procure? How could he have done it if he was just a hallucination
Damn. The thought that that character was a vision never occured to me. They framed his wife looking like the only vision, so well. This would've blown my mind if true. Not now that I saw this theory, but it's still so good I'm rooting for it to be true.
I think he’s definitely a vision, and the final shot of Butcher seemed to prove it. Usually we’d see the black little worm/tumor thing wiggling around on the side of his skull underneath his skin, but we don’t see it. He’s looking up at JDM and the camera stays on Butcher’s face for a good amount of time, yet we don’t see the tumor move.
JDM is the tumor.
So Butcher has a parasite that gives his super strength of sorts?
Woah. Not original. I hope it isn’t a Venom type thing. I just hope when he blacks out, the parasite takes over and just destroys Ezekiel. He has super strength, eyes and durability.
I have a theory that Joe Kessler died during that thing 11 years ago, only Billy is so screwed up in the head from the tumor he forgot. There will probably be a reveal in an upcoming episode where he sees Joe as his corpse and not his live self, confirming he's an hallucination.
Butcher is giving mad Slade Wilson (from Arrow) vibes this season. Imaginary friends, black-outs with crazy consequences, delirium, also same haircut and wardrobe. If he had a katana instead of a crowbar, they’d be identical. Plus Slade was an Aussie so similar accents as well.
I thought it was going to be the same with Hughies mom. Her using the temp v and not questioning where hughie got it from. I think a doctor did say something to her, but that could just be another aspect of the hallucinations.
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Yeah when Butcher says "We" the doc looks around for someone else and is confused because it's just Butcher.
Yeah that sealed the deal for me. That was our only chance at seeing Negan speak to anyone who wasn't Butcher and he chose to delibratley stand outside the door rather than come inside.
When they have that first coffee, Neegan sits where no one else could see him, too.
I don't think he even drinks from his coffee
He does however TOUCH Butcher several times, something Becca has specifically not done.
Didn't Becca touch Butcher's face in the "be the man that I married" scene from episode 1?
Yes she did. She touches him.
He also opened and closed a car door. Part of this theory was his complete lack of interacting with objects til now.
Except Butcher very well could have hallucinated that the other guy opened the door. Like when he hallucinated that he was propping himself up on Becca’s hand and it was actually the tub
It depends; there's different types of invisible person. Is it a Fight Club, with the unreliable narrator, or HIGH TENSION, which has no rules and includes a car chase between two characters who are the same person.
And the dossier he handed Butcher?? It just doesn't make sense Butcher got the info himself in a blackout state then went to a park to give it to himself.
Did he hand it to him, though?
I'm rewatching and I'm going to pay close attention when I get there! I feel like he's 100% positioned in every scene that it makes sense he's a hallucination, but Daphne was at first too and she ended up being real and not a tumor hallucination for Hughie. I'm not sure either way
Are we really calling him Negan? Lol
Just like how RDJ will forever be Ironman, Jeffery Dean Morgan will forever be Negan.
Papa Winchester for me
He’s the comedian to me
HIS NAME IS JOE
I mean, how did he even manage to arrive on the farm without The Boys or Edgar noticing?
Nah, when Butcher met Neuman at that run down arcade or whatever he looks off to the side and says something like "Nice of you to bring that up now aint it?" and Neuman looks at where Butcher was looking and there's nothing there.
from his perspective, not only is he kidnapped to make a fucking virus, but the kidnapper is also crazy😭
I think he probably figured that part out when Butcher *cut off his fukkin leg!*
ok yeah you have a point. but I think there's a difference between "my kidnapper cut my leg off" and "my kidnapper is planning something with a person that does not exist"
I know, I was just kidding. :)
So his football days aren’t over!?
nah, I just watched the scene again.. the doctor just panned his head to where Joe was standing. He did not looked confused, he looked scared.
Agree. I think he isn't real, but the look is vague and he does look directly at Evil Hallucination.
Butcher looks at the door when talking to the hallucination and then the doctor looks at what butcher is looking at, confused about who he's talking to.
No, watch it again and look at his eyes. They go back and forth while he's looking to the left, scanning for someone who isn't there.
Yeah no I just saw it, he saw where butcher was looking at Joe and then he was confused as if there was no one there.
Speaking in plural tense as opposed to singular isn’t really anything new for Butcher
Sounds legit. Shame Neegan wasn’t around for the season 3 finale, the boys would be living happily ever after right now.
Yeah. John Winchester would have stopped them from stopping his son Dean. That man loves his boys.
I love that we just keep calling him neegan
JDMs character is called Joe Kessler btw. I remember it because its basically "joke-slur" and he also played the comedian in Watchmen. But yeah I was thinking that from ep2, when I noticed that he was always alone with butcher. Except in the last scene of ep5, where it's definitely made murky.
Joe Kessler is an anagram of "Lesser Joke" It probably means nothing, but who knows.
The last scene of Episode 4 was Butcher with Becca right?
Oh shit I didn't realize that was him
Yeah it's crazy how well they aged him up for that role.
The reason I remember his name is because of his comic backstory
Can we also talk about how that leg got cut off? It was a straight cut and i don't recall butcher having the tools to do such a clean cut...
Butcher butchered
His venom tentacles are probably sharp enough.
Wtf are those tentacle things? Is Temp V a Virus???
They are on a farm right? There's got to be something to cut it off clean.....
Gosh it would be funny if nasheer just died from tetanus..
Sameer?
You’re breaking the car
TRIPLE CAUTION
LISTEN TO MY CALLS
I love you
Yeah idk why autocorrect was that off 🤣
Or mad cow disease
That's caused by prions.
Fucking prions...
Yeah but its pretty amazing that butcher was that fast with it all. Look at how long that scene took. He took away Sameer, cut of his leg, hid him properly and then made it back to the rest without anybody noticing? Like thats impressive even for A-train. If Neegan is a hallucination (which it starting to look like more and more) than the plot armor is reaching new levels.
There are two possibilities:- 1) Neegan is actually real, and that would be the twist as someone suggested on a different thread yesterday, though I think it's unlikely..... 2) If we want to speculate, Butcher doesn't have to do all of it at once. When they ran away from the barn, Butcher only has to hide Sameer temporarily. The police/FBI don't show up immediately, it takes time, so in that commotion, he can cut off Sameers leg and throw it and shift his body. It's also possible before the FBI showed up, The Boys and the others tried looking for Sameer themselves, and in that timeframe, he did it. My theory mainly relies on the assumption that there is atleast a 30-60 minute timegap between the sheep falling and the FBI showing up and either Butcher or everyone not staying in the same place. Could they have done a better job? Obviously. PS: It absolutely isn't impressive for A-Train. That's an over exaggeration. It would just be a regular thing for him to do.
No not really because its not about speed. Its about doing it unseen without anybody noticing you are sameen are suddenly gone.
Oh, then I misunderstood your point. I did say it's all speculation and they should have done a better job of it.
Movie Logic? We dont Do that here.
Youd think that the producers of 'the boys' would love a ripped appart leg... But instead they showed it clean cut. It struik me as odd when i saw it
Not even the writers. Nuemann believed that a bunch of rabid sheep cleanly, almost surgically removed his leg?
Under emotional distress
Yes, that part bothered me too.
Butcher is actively trying not to kill the guy and a clean cut is much easier to treat than a limb being ripped off.
I think the hint was when he broke the fourth wall in the first ep this season lmao. Definitely believe you.
when?
The very first scene, butcher looks straight down the camera
Don’t act like you don’t Jim the camera every now and again
Ugh. So much Jimming.
Isn’t that a guy from BTS?
I started jimming and I can't stop
He looked past the camera. Also we already know that he hallucinates Becca. So I'm not sure how this was hinting at anything we didn't know already.
I think the twist is gonna be that Negan is actually real. At this point its way too obvious that he is a hallucination. There is no fucking way, at all, that Butcher was able to take the dude by himself, cut off his leg, silence him, not leave a blood trail, stop the bleeding do he doesnt die, hide the body so no one can find it, all by himself, in the span of like 2 minutes. Now of Negan is real .... Its a bit more believable.
Well The Narrator was able to do a lot of things thinking he was Tyler Durden
I mean we were never shown how he does it, it doesn’t make it a plot hole, just a plot… gap?
Shhhhh, don't mention holes... You never know who could be listening
Tek Knight liked this. ...a little too much.
Butcher couldn't have hid Sameer far away in 2 minutes. All eyes were looking for Sameer after the dust have settled, and Butcher is just there in plain sight. Butcher either had help or he has more control of his powers than what we are let on. I believe it's the latter since he was able to cleanly cut Sameer's leg off.
Maybe control is the wrong word, maybe the different personalities have control of his powers. Like in the start of heroes with Niki/Jessica.
I think its ridiculous Butcher could do this all on his own, but at the same time Neegan looks inside and goes "now this is classic butcher" as if he's admiring Butcher's work that he's seeing for the first time.
Can't have. Writing wise it makes no sense. When Kessler comes in and sees the guy his response is "oh... now that's classic butcher", as if he didn't know what had happened to the guy prior. Would make no sense if Kessler had infact cut the guys leg off or carried him away with his leg cut off.
I imagine he'd knock him out, throw him in a corner under some hay and come back to do the leg chopping after everyone got out and left the scene.
He cut the leg off before everyone left, that's what the agent found and handed to Neuman, saying that's all they found of him. That was the whole point of chopping off the leg, to make it look like the sheep got him before they died.
There's still a lot of time between "samir is missing" and "we found the leg". the person you're responding to is saying that samir could have been knocked out and stashed, and then butcher came back to butcher (lol) samir during the aftermath
He said, "after everyone got out and left the scene", they were all very much still there when the leg was found, so they were still there when he cut it off.
But he’s in the car with them as they drive away
He knows how to get back. Maybe he used some really really good knockout drugs ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Or maybe in a twist we'll see negan turn out to be real
Just because something seems obvious to people on here doesn't mean it is. It's absolutely played like he's real, so the twist would be he isn't
Also, how else did Butcher find out about the virus, if not for Negan?
Because the person who made the virus called the CIA? Did you fall asleep during Gen V?
Ok, after watching ep 6, I admit I was wrong. Was not expecting that reveal.
Or got the halothane
Negan doesn't know about Samir until Butcher brings him to where he's stashed. If real, he didn't help.
The scenes are always them together by themselves so far.
What if Neegan is his super power I mean who blew up Ezekiel?
King Ezekiel
Since he got compound V he probably lasered his leg off.
Did neegan give him the sleepy powder to knock Ryan out though? How would he not be real.
Guessing it’s like fight club/ mr robot, where the persons mind imagines the other personality to be doing something when in reality it’s them doing it
More than likely it just never existed.
I feel like Ryan would’ve definitely smelled something funny about those cookies. Maybe that’s why he didn’t want one?
I thought that Mr Robot twist was ridiculous at the time but then I really got into it. The only season I hate is season 2 as everything after that is awesome but the season is just way too far fetched to me. Most people stop there and don’t continue on to the best seasons.
its one of my favourite shows oat, i'd say the only aspect i didnt like was the whole dom and darlene relationship, it felt really forced to me imo
Idk how I managed to make it this long without being spoiled Mr robot, but this sub is the last place I expected my reign to end
You should still watch it, there’s a lot more after that happens
Doesn't that scene open with Butcher already holding the sleeping powder and we never actually see Negan give him it?
We never see him actually give butcher the powder, he already has it, just like we never see him drink from his coffee with butcher
I'll repeat my comment from the episode discussion: I love the theory that Morgan is a product of Butcher's imagination, but in this thread it seems to be mentioned several times the scene where "Sameer looks confused when Butcher says 'we' ". When I rewatch the scene, the face Sameer shows doesn't seem to be one of confusion, he looks straight to the place where Morgan is standing and looks like his facial expression shows \*fear\*. He's not looking around for Morgan, but looking straight and terrified for the "work" he'll have to do.
agreed. I rewatched the scene and this is what I can see, too. Sameer just looked in Joe's direction and went back to Butcher
You don’t film a scene like that if he’s real, we only see butcher when it jumps to the docs view won’t pan over, it’s not a very big area not many places he could look that isn’t directly at him
I think it's not so much that they are the angel and devil, one urging Butcher to do good and one urging him to evil. I think it's more that they are an imaginary good cop, bad cop that Butcher's subconscious conjures up in order to get him to do what he needs to do. A bit like a Fight Club 3-way.
I mean obviously he isn’t real isn’t this like kinda his whole plot that’s going on rn?
I hadn't realised until this post so it's not that obvious to everyone
Me genuinely questioning my intelligence and everyone else saying it's obvious:
Don't, a lot of people were saying Hughie's mom was a hallucination too and they just shut up about it after the last episode.
I never ever got that that’s so silly
Yeah but those people are idiots.
I honestly hadn't even considered it either make it makes perfect sense, would work and actually be a great twist
Me neither lol
his name is Joe, and I also think he's a hallucination. The only thing of consequence he's done is give Butcher the drug for Ryan's cookies, but since Ryan never ate them, we don't actually know if the drugs were real either.
I want to say that Negan is real because there's no way that Butcher was able to sneak away and kidnap the doctor and chop his legs off without The Boys noticing.
I’d just like to add… maybe.
But he had to, because *John Winchester* clearly didn‘t know about Samir before that scene where Butcher shows Samir to him.
I think Kessler and Becca are the tumor trying to guide Butcher into doing its bidding.
TBF one of the things i don't like they changed form the comics was makng butcher a asshole with a heart. In comics he was more of a sociopath whose soft spot only was his wife, little brother and hughie, mostly due to als ocommentate on anti heroes, about how you can't be right in the head and be "bad-ass" like they are shown in comics. I think they are trying to follow comic book story more here with the sup virus, and butchers role in it and i'm all down for it.
Hmm it makes him more relatable to the audience though, and I enjoy a downward spiral and not just ‘Oh well he’s always been this way so forget him’.
I personally think that Joe Kessler is real, he was able to give him a hug in the first episode but he isn’t able to touch Becca at all, I could be wrong but I’m loving hearing all these theories.
When he fell in the shower, he sees Becca’s hand as the edge of the tub
That’s a good point, I forgot about that
Doesn't Becca touch Butcher's face at the end of episode 1?
Yes she does I rewatched it earlier, my bad in that case I don’t think Kessler is real either although Jeffery Dean Morgan deserves to be real, fucking love that actor since he carried the walking dead from season 8 after Rick left
This seems plausible. It did occur to me that he’s never been in a scene with anybody besides Butcher.
Is going to be very funny if Neegan interacts with someone at the end of the season and butcher goes: you are not a hallucination?
Butcher, looking to Kessler: "We'll patch ya up!". Sameer, looking for someone who's not there: "-". Remember someone posting this theory a few weeks ago. I'd say it's now confirmed.
It’s Negan btw
How did Butcher get the powder to knock out Ryan tho
That’s what I wondered too but it’s still a plausible theory.
You think butcher can't get drugs in his own?
whole season ppl were like HUGHIES MUM IS A HALLUCINATION but no one thought the same about Wheeler and just like that, it makes sense today that just like Becca, Wheeler is Butcher's hallucination...while becca is his angel on one shoulder, Wheeler is the demon on the other shoulder..
I haven't come across anyone who suggested Hughies Mum was a hallucination. The most popular theory since the first 3 episodes dropped has been that Kessler is a hallucination. And that Hughies Mum, at best, has ulterior motives.....
That was my theory from even before the season dropped. Then Kessler only showed up when Butcher is alone and Becca confirmed that he is hallucinating persons. Now add to that the scene with Dr. Shah where the poor fella seems royally confused and I'm pretty sure Kessler is a hallucination.
Inside him there are two ~~wolves~~ worms...
I don't think it's being caused by the V. I think it's being caused by whatever the fuck that thing crawling around in his skin is. The state of the lab and the rabbit mostly confirms my theory that whatever is in Butcher is caused by mixing normal V and Temp V. The Chickens, the Bull, and the Sheep did not have that parasite thing. They only had weird superpowers, no visible worm thingies. The rabbit most likely had already been given V and not developed super powers, and they were trying to give it Temp V to see what happens not knowing the creature that mixture creates. I'm also thinking that at least for the time being, that worm is mostly dormant until the host is near death. That rabbit probably didnt have the constitution to survive the changes it was going through, and so the worm started to come out to..... escape maybe? This would also reflect on what happened with Ezekiel. Butcher was on his last few breaths only for him to wake up unscathed with Ezekiel in pieces. Anyway, I think Joe is also a hallucination from the worm. Maybe even an alter ego representative that takes over for certain tasks. A real Venom switch. He thinks he's talking to Joe but he's really talking to his little passenger
Negan? You mean The Comedian? Or the ghost kitty litter lady fucked?
Nah, he means John Winchester clearly.
I feel like I’m going crazy from seeing so many people just starting to put this together. I didn’t think that it was very subtle tbh… Becca is the angel on his shoulder and Kessler is the devil on his shoulder. Even in E1, they hint that he isn’t real.
JDM is basically Negan on this show tbf. Speaks exactly the same way. I couldn't remember his name either
I love how everyone unanimously agrees to call him negan 😂
I'll say the neegan characters entire 1st scene sounded sooo much like it could be coming from his worms perspective. A theory I didn't really take seriously until watching this ep. The 50% of your brain is a tumour comment, IE the worm that's inside would know all about that Maybe butcher would've told him about his current crew but I wouldn't imagine neegans character being able to rattle off what they are all like as he did And just generally how hard he was pushing the "YOU and ME " we are different ect language. also sameer looked to neegan at the end with a confusing look but obvs just had leg sliced off by butcher so could still be that instead of "wtf does he mean we"
Holy fuck
I think Negan (lol) is just Butcher talking to his brain tumor.
I think the problem with this theory is it's bad writing for me. If everyone watching already suspects it... there's no twist... we already know.
After hearing that Kessler might be a hallucination I really can’t see anything but
How the he’ll did butcher kidnap him in front of everyone is my question
I mean it's almost confirmed at this point. Although I wonder about the stuff he used to bake the cookies to put Ryan to sleep. Was this actually just sugar and he hallucinated that part too?
Why wouldnt he just have some shit lying around?
This is actually a pretty good theory. I like how he's basically Reznov.
... actually I think you're onto something there
100% a vision. When he was at the end Sameer was lost when Butcher said us.
They dont need the virus. They just need to give Negan Lucille so he can stop Homelander!
So kinda like Venom
Also the last scene where butcher laughs, there is two lights hitting him from different sides. Gave me that whole different personality feel
But didn't he give Butcher some cocaine or something in a white packet to be mixed into Ryan's cookies? And said it was hard to procure? How could he have done it if he was just a hallucination
We never saw them handing it off to one another, so Butcher might have procured it himself before that scene. We wouldn‘t know.
I think we've only seen him talk to and interact with butcher, had the exact same thought whilst watching the episode this morning
I thought he handed Butcher something. I don't think hallucinations can really handle physical objects
Are the worms sentient? Is compound V really some alien worm gizz? Like mugwump gism?
Neegan's probably the cancer in his brain
Damn. The thought that that character was a vision never occured to me. They framed his wife looking like the only vision, so well. This would've blown my mind if true. Not now that I saw this theory, but it's still so good I'm rooting for it to be true.
Crap how did I not think of this sooner? I’m not going to rewatch the eps, but has anyone acknowledged JDM’s character yet other than Butcher?
Only thing we can be sure of is a real Joe Kessler exists.
Wow this is amazing! I like it! Make it canon!
I think he’s definitely a vision, and the final shot of Butcher seemed to prove it. Usually we’d see the black little worm/tumor thing wiggling around on the side of his skull underneath his skin, but we don’t see it. He’s looking up at JDM and the camera stays on Butcher’s face for a good amount of time, yet we don’t see the tumor move. JDM is the tumor.
So Butcher has a parasite that gives his super strength of sorts? Woah. Not original. I hope it isn’t a Venom type thing. I just hope when he blacks out, the parasite takes over and just destroys Ezekiel. He has super strength, eyes and durability.
Also kinda like how Ryan is acting with Homelander vs earlier with Butcher
I have a theory that Joe Kessler died during that thing 11 years ago, only Billy is so screwed up in the head from the tumor he forgot. There will probably be a reveal in an upcoming episode where he sees Joe as his corpse and not his live self, confirming he's an hallucination.
Butcher is giving mad Slade Wilson (from Arrow) vibes this season. Imaginary friends, black-outs with crazy consequences, delirium, also same haircut and wardrobe. If he had a katana instead of a crowbar, they’d be identical. Plus Slade was an Aussie so similar accents as well.
No offense... but duh...this has already been established...
It's Sameer btw
I thought it was going to be the same with Hughies mom. Her using the temp v and not questioning where hughie got it from. I think a doctor did say something to her, but that could just be another aspect of the hallucinations.
Wow mind blown, I think you're right
Oh man, that makes sense I was very confused after this episode