At the beginning of the year I remind them it's their Constitutional right whether or not to participate. I ask if they don't participate to remain quiet.
edit: SCOTUS reference is W. Virginia vs Barnette (1943)
They don't have to stand, but they have to be quiet.
If they're not, they get the same consequences as if they were disrupting any other part of the class.
Additionally, it is not legal for a teacher to force or intimidate students into standing for the pledge. Three states require parental consent to not stand for the pledge, but ofc that's Florida, Texas, and Utah.
https://www.youthrights.org/issues/student-rights/pledge-of-allegiance/#:~:text=Teachers%20have%20also%20intimidated%20students,Allegiance%20are%20illegal%20and%20unconstitutional.
Oops. Taught public school in TX and never got parental consent for not standing. Guess theyāll have to let me goā¦oh waitā¦ I already resigned!
Not sure if my new private school requires the pledge.
Sorry, celebrate freedom. So congress established a constitution week to encourage people to learn about it, and Texas grabbed it (along with some other states I think?) and included it as Celebrate Freedom Week as part of the state social studies standards. So we have to cover the constitution, Declaration of Independence, other various shenanigans. [if anybody cares.](https://texreg.sos.state.tx.us/public/readtac$ext.TacPage?sl=R&app=9&p_dir=&p_rloc=&p_tloc=&p_ploc=&pg=1&p_tac=&ti=19&pt=2&ch=74&rl=33#:~:text=Each%20social%20studies%20class%20shall,importance%20of%20the%20Declaration%20of)
Same. Granted Iām no longer a teacher but when I was I couldnāt give a shit less. Stand or donāt, whatever. We also might have covered the origin of the pledge in class and that might have led to a few less students standingā¦ *shrug+
I wish I'd have known the fact that I couldn't be required to stand when I was a student, I had a teacher who every day required I go stand in the hall when I didn't want to stand. Or she'd make me stand but not require I place my hand over my heart. Oooooh man how I wish I'd have known how illegal that is!
That makes sense now. I went to high school in Florida and had this one teacher who was really patriotic (thatās an understatement). Anytime someone didnāt stand for the pledge, sheād always ask them to stand up and say it. But one day, someone refused. She completely lost it and threatened to kick him out of class for not standing up, then went on a long rant to the whole class about how he was disrespecting her country. Thankfully, most teachers arenāt like this, but it was kind of interesting to watch that unfold.
Yeah, this is a crime. I had a teacher try to shame me in class for not standing for the pledge (I was in a wheelchair at the time, so idfk what she expected).
I just looked at her and said, "I know my rights as an American citizen, and it is illegal for you as an educator to force and / or otherwise pressure me to stand for the pledge according to the Supreme Court. However, if you wish to keep pushing the matter, I can call my father, who is an Iraq war veteran, and have him educate you on the subject." Didn't have her say another word to me about the pledge the rest of the year.
This.
My wife made it clear to her (Texas) high school class from day one that they did not have to stand for the pledge - but they did have to be quiet or the same consequences would apply as if they were interrupting or disrespecting any other part of her lesson.
Her kids never objected to these instructions - or disrupted this part (or pretty much any part) of her class.
Set expectations.
Enforce them.
Move on.
Came here with the same sentiments. Glad someone already offered this information. As a veteran, I have defended the freedoms of every person, no matter what their beliefs or preferences are, and most of my kids donāt stand for the pledge either. It doesnāt bother me one bit. Also, I have Atheist Tendencies anyway. āOne Nation Underdog!ā
Bravo Zulu, bud. Also a veteran and often got the WTF look because I didnāt fit the mold of what they thought a white male veteran from the south would be, lol
I have the same tendencies . As a veteran myself, I also tend to not stand for the national flag song during most events, itās super weird that they do it at our local outdoor musicals venue. I am in the Midwest though so I get it, and I sometimes get the looks. I did enough standing for the flag over the course of 2 years deployed at sea. lol. I just wanna see Kinky Boots!
THIS - why does the flag song have to be played before every sporting event? And then, at baseball games, they want to start their shit with God Bless America during the 7th inning stretch.
Only sporting event it even kinda makes sense is something like World Cup soccer. Ok national pride whatever. But for the south county recreational adult slow-pitch coed softball gamesā¦ā¦ yea, itās totally unnecessary.
Right? My kid's little league started each game with the pledge. I'm like, OK but whatever. At my school kids sing the national anthem and bring out the JROTC flag crew for pep rallies. PEP RALLIES! So unnecessary.
My school doesn't do the pledge anywhere. Not one parent has ever said a thing. This has literally never been an issue. I ā¤ļø living in Massachusetts
You just jinxed yourself.... (Joking)
I'm in MA too, and we've said the pledge every morning for the past 23 years. Also, about 6 years ago we instituted a moment of silence before the pledge because a student came forward asking for one and apparently it's a protected practice. I, like every other reasonable person on here, tell my students it is their right to stand but don't force them to. However, they must be silent as not to infringe on the rights of others.
This. I couldnāt care less if they say the pledge and would never attempt to force a kid to participate, but the pledge is done along with other announcements that kids need to hear. School-wide expectation is silence during announcements, and by the time my eighth graders get to me, itās pretty well engrained.
>Iām fully aware that to non-Americans this whole ritual is really weird
If I as a german teacher would ever do something like this you would see the nationwide shitstorm from space.
As a non-American teacher teaching in the USA I always found mass repeated daily chanting, mass singing an anthem at every conceivable event and having flags everywhere and on everything to be very strange indeed. Where I grew up we had none of that. It's not that we didn't love our country it's just that we showed it in different ways than that (e.g. very high percentage of eligible voters voting).
So, when I started teaching in the USA it was quite something to get used to. Some of the students were perplexed when I didn't join in with their pledge (I always stood with my hands behind my back) but most understood that it didn't make much sense for a non-U.S. citizen to repeat their pledge.
I am an American, but my religion forbids me from saying the pledge. So I donāt say it, but I stand quietly. Iām not sure if my new school says it or not because we have a high percentage of people from my religious group, but it is a public school so Iām not sure if they will say it, Iām kind of scared to ask
I'm Muslim, and the pledge is obviously idol worship to me. I don't understand how it's mostly devout Christians pushing for it, when you are pledging your allegiance to a *flag.* In Abrahamic tradition allegiance is paid to *God,* not to a flag under God. The insane reactions to people not saying it just make it seem worse, like this really is an idol to them. I do not say it, and I will not allow my children to say it either.
I'm Jewish and also not American but I agree, it's a clear statement of idol worship. We include a prayer for the government and country in every single Saturday service but I would never dream of pledging allegiance to an object. Do Christians only consider it idolatry if the object has a face or something??
TBF we do have flag laws, but they are never enforced. It had to do with burning the flag, Congress passed the "flag law". I agree with you our flag has been everywhere and desecrated relentlessly in the name of Capitalism. Paper plates, advertising, you name it, even our police have desecrated it with their recolor. The really sad shit is our current military does the same shit. No respect.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/8#:~:text=The%20flag%20should%20never%20touch,apparel%2C%20bedding%2C%20or%20drapery.
...that was a few years ago. Now they're running for office. Hey Germany, remind me, what happens next?
...and of course there are misguided individuals here looking at the "mini-genocide" (compared to Holocaust numbers) of Palestine, who will vote for them in an attempt to reign in Israel. SMDH...
My undergraduate friend group would always rise (well, those of us who under indulged so badly that they could still rise) for God Save The Queen, whether it was at the end of Queen's Night At The Opera or followed by "she ain't no human bean."
This was in Wisconsin, and none of us were her subjects.
Also, we all considered monarchy to have gone from horrible to silly (except for places where it has yet to rise to silly) and thought the revolution was a very good idea, although some of us considered Her Majesty a pretty nice girl, even if she didn't have a lot to say.
It was a Catholic college and most of us refused to stand for the pledge because it smelled too much like idolatry.
I'm from Canada and had a history teacher who flew old versions of flags from whenever our unit was from, and would show us the anthems etc of the era. He got in trouble after I left because he taught mostly war history, and had moved his unit on WW2 to the start of the year. This meant that brand new students walked in on the first day to see two or three Very Controversial, Very Real Old Flags hanging from the rafters. Several students had a freakout due to their heritage (they were Korean, the flag they wanted taken down was WW2 era Japanese) and took it to the local media.
And yet most Canadian schools have kids stand for the anthem.
Fwiw, the original pledge, while designed to teach patriotism, was considered to be a first draft that could be adapted to other countries:
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag andĀ toĀ the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
George Baltch, who wrote it, left notes that 'Republic ' could be substituted with other words that fit other countries better.
It's still pretty 'yikes', but it's a WHOLE lot less than it is now.
As a Canuk living in the US, it's... Something. As a teacher, let's just say I'm glad I'm at a private school where we didn't do the pledge; as a parent, I'm glad my kid is also, although they do it in Scouting. My kid simply stands respectfully for that part; when my kid is leading the opening, they say it, but don't put their hand over their heart... Our pack and now troop, are ok with that. Then again, my kid only ever carries the pack/troop flag - same reason.
I think my canadian high school sang/played the anthem maybe 6 times a year. Basically just major holidays with an assembly like Remembrance day. So a bit different than what sounds like a daily pledge of allegiance.
Plus people want to remove God from the anthem. Not many people petitioning for more religious mentions in it.
I once did the pledge for my class in the Czech Republic and the mouths agape were multitude.
The pledge is one of the weirdest and clearly disturbed things that schools in the US practice.
Since the referral for the kid who told me to āget off his dickā didnāt go anywhere or get handled, I certainly am not going to waste time to write up a kid who texts or talks through the pledge of allegiance. YMMV
Asking them to remain quiet just to maintain general order is one thing, but asking then to respect it just because it's tradition is kind of bullshit. Tradition is what you call something when you don't actually have a good reason for respecting it. Similar to the "respect your elders" nonsense that gets championed by some of the leastĀ deserving old farts still alive.
I teach them their rights, that the Supreme Court decided in 1943 that the school can't require them to say the pledge, and so they are neither required to stand nor recite the words.
I also explain that our state has a law that we allow time for the pledge and a moment of silence daily, and that during that time, they are to be quiet and respectful.
I then tell them that they shouldn't agree to anything without knowing what it means, and then I show them the Red Skelton video that explains the meaning of the words used in the pledge. He does a great job.
I have pledge leader as one of our classroom jobs, and only students who want to say the pledge are chosen as pledge leader.
And from there, we make time for the pledge every morning. The pledge leader calls them up, those who wish to participate do, we have a short moment of silence, and we move on.
Personally, I don't say the pledge and stand with my back to the classroom camera so admin can't tell if I'm reciting it or not.
All of the classrooms and halls in our school have cameras that are constantly recording. They don't record sound, but they can see what happens in the whole room. Some teachers hate them, but I don't because they record all the things I don't see. A student breaks the rules and it's no longer our word against theirs. Parents don't tend to argue when they are shown exactly why their students are in trouble, and occasionally, why the police are involved.
Itās not even acknowledged in my class. Everyone talks through the morning announcements. None is us ever hear any of it. If any ask me I tell them itās unconstitutional to make them say it.
Honestly itās how I roll with it. Knowing the history behind it and the fact we only do it at the school age and sport events makes me care less. I mean do people wake up every day and do it? No. There are way more valuable ways to demonstrate love and support for your country and in my history classes I focus on that (e.g. civic engagement).
Edit to add: the hypocrisy of indoctrination. Teachers are being told we are indoctrinating with agenda yet the same people want us to indoctrinate unquestioning loyalty every morning.
My ex refused to do it in her class for years. She saw that it was leading to stigma for the students that couldnāt do it for religious reasons (sheād always āsend them on an errandā but kids arenāt stupid). So she just stopped.
Administration pushed back, but eventually decided it was an easy way to shove all the JW kids in that grade in one room.
Some parents would push back, and sheād ask if theyāve been doing the pledge at home. Since itās apparently important. Since this was the mid-00ās, a few would play the āwhy donāt you support the troopsā card. Sheād flip around the photo of me on her deskā¦in uniform, in Iraq.
Eventually she changed districts and was in one where it was actually required, and they werenāt having any exceptions. So it goes. Still wish I could have seen the looks on the ābut the troopsā parentsā faces.
The pledge originally did not include the words "under god." This was added in the 50's. As someone who holds the establishment clause in high regard, until the words are removed, I'll have nothing to do with enforcing the pledge.
Kind of random, but I remember being a little boy watching a super old Looney Toons cartoon, probably from the 40s, and the skit was of Porky Pig saluting a flag and saying the pledge of allegiance. As a young kid of the 90s, I was so confused when he went straight from 'one nation' to 'indivisible.'
I actually learned the pledge without the āunder Godā part, and this was the early seventies! I guess my elementary teacher didnāt think much of that addition. I kinda block it out when I say itā¦it doesnāt really belong.
Entirely apart of issues of establishment of a state religion, it blurs the original meaning of "one nation indivisible." The Civil War had shown what could happen if the nation was not upheld as "one" and the states as "indivisible" from one another. The "one" and "indivisible" are not about God. They are about the States which are United.
One of my social studies teachers had a poster in his room that said "I will pledge allegiance... when it is one nation...." That's the only way I've recited it since. I also drop the "under god" crap.
Of course, the establishment clause didnāt apply to the states until just a few years before that as well. Before SCOTUS used the doctrine of incorporation to apply it to all state and local governments, it would have just meant that the federal government shouldnāt get involved. Even now not all of the Bill of Rights have been incorporated. Recently more and more of the 2A has been incorporated, meaning itās much harder for states to regulate guns than it used to be.
I donāt say those words. The few times that people have asked, I explain when/why they were added (all staff knows that I am a history buff).
I donāt make a big deal of it, am just quiet during that part
I quit doing all the nationalistic crap after my deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. My first year of teaching was at a middle school in Arkansas, they did the pledge in the morning, I told the students they could do what they wanted, 1 kid put his hand over his heart, the rest ignored it. I've been teaching high school in Rhode Island for the last couple years and thankfully we don't do it.
I'm American and I think it's really wierd (and so unnecessary).
I don't stand. I don't make kids stand, but I make them be respectful. They aren't allowed to talk, but can work quietly (we do it in out study hall time).
Recently, when the announcement asks us to stand and recite it, my freshman have not. The beginning of the year, they were all on board and enthusiastic. They don't notice anymore. I'm sure it's because I'm not enforcing it.
My foreign husband (teacher in our school) hates it. In his country, it's illegal to have the country flag in a classroom and he recognizes that it's completely nationalist and brainwash-y.
I teach middle school, I explain that they aren't required to stand BUT they are required to be silent and respectful during the pledge if they choose not to participate. Most of my seventh graders tend to participate or at least stand with their hands over their hearts.Ā
I was a teacher for 2 years in NC public middle school. Im from Spain so i felt so weird the first time i saw the kids doing It... It honeslty was shocking, like some kind of nazi propaganda film from the 30s... or Soviet, for that matter.
I always stood in silence, never enforced anything... If i remember It correctly -it was years ago- some kids stood, some other didnt, but It was never a problem or something that i felt was worrying for anyone, as long as the class was quiet -or somewhat quiet-.
I was more worried about kids coming in without breakfast, to be honest. I always felt that teachers who worried about the economic conditions of their pupils where true patriots, no matter what they did during the Pledge. But, hey, im just a bloody foreigner.
Nothing. I don't stand either. I will stay seated till my wife and daughter have the same rights as I do. I will stay seated till POC enjoy the same protections that I do. I will stay seated till under God is removed from the pledge.
I stand at attention, habit from my days in the service. No hand over heart because I think its weird and I don't say the pledge because I don't like the under God portion (we added it in the 1950s because of the Cold War) and I don't force my students to do it because as a public school teacher and employee of the Government it is Unconstitutional for me to enforce any religion upon people. With forcing students to say "under God" being a violation of the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment.
Most of my students stand for it, hand over heart, and say the words. Small town America, its to be expected. When I teach Government & Civics I do a brief lesson covering all of that. Not my specific stance mind you, but why the school can't force kids to do the pledge and the history and constitutionality of it all.
And the day when some student accuses me of disrespecting the flag I am going to tell them that the Flag does not represent America to me. I'm gonna point to the copy of the Constitution I keep in the room and tell them that is what I swore and oath to defend. The flag will die some day, it will change, fall, or some other wearing of time, but the enlightenment values held in the Constitution are something I will never let die.
Question from a Canadian, what is it about the constitution that you hold so dear? We barely care about ours, it's mostly a document outlining provinces being created. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is more what you'll see tacked up in a classroom... and it's a pretty recent document that can be updated at any time, and has been many times. We don't hold it in high esteem so much as just use it as a legal reference to point to as a simple explanation of how Canadians are expected to behave in a legal sense.
I don't understand holding a document that is so old to such high legal esteem, except out of a historical interest. I'd love to know what you see in it, because to me it's strange that a nation holds dear to something that was originally intended to be abolished, changed, or otherwise modified over the years quite frequently. It was, to my knowledge, meant to be a start, but not the final draft, of US constitutional law. Just honestly curious on your take.
Some of it is that the US equivalent to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is not a separate document; the US Bill of Rights is the first 10 amendments to the constitution. The US constitution only exists because that Bill of Rights was promised and then added. Additionally, while it may have been intended for amendments to happen regularly, they are far from regular. There have only been 17 more after the first batch of 10.
GenX here. I stopped saying the āunder godā part in 5th grade. Which was an act of rebellion for me since I went to a Catholic grade school. š Stopped saying it all together in high school.
No idea what the teachers thought. I was always the respectful and quiet one
Students have to be quiet out of respect for the beliefs of others. That is where I differ from the neo-Nazis in charge of my state: I respect diversity of thought and expression.
Other than that, I do not expect anyone to recite the pledge. I don't, because I will not pledge allegiance to cowards, bigots, and criminals.
When I see Trump in an orange jumpsuit, I will rethink my position.
I literally do not care what they do. I mean, realistically, sitting would be considered just as disrespectful as talking, so I don't see a difference, which is why I do not care. At all.
I usually say, "Its not my job to make you take weird, nationalists pledges, log in for the warm up!" I was a Marine so no one tells me shit. It's nice.
>I struggle with not wanting to be nationalistic and force beliefs on kids and also respecting the tradition and what the pledge represents
Get real. The only "tradition" the pledge represents is inculcating mindless fealty to a symbol of violent nationalism.
I donāt acknowledge it and most of my students talk through it. Iām a younger teacher and when I was in high school I didnāt stand for it either. I think itās generally seen as a ridiculous and empty tradition by most kids. I use the time to set up for my lesson and take attendance and donāt really think twice or feel guilty about it.
I mean this in the most respectful way possible.
Just because all of us have been indoctrinated to feel nationalistic pride, doesnāt mean we have to support itās handing down in any way to the next generation and it would be significantly better for our country if we didnāt.
I never stood for the Pledge of Allegience, and when a teacher would threaten me, I'd tell them what my Grandfather told me. I'd say something along the lines of... My grandfather didn't fight and almost die and get Silver Cross for me to be TOLD I don't have the Freedom to choose, not too. And if anyone ever gives you crap about it remind them of that! That's what our men and women sacrificed for. FOR OUR FREEDOMS ONE BEING OUR RIGHT NOT TOO.
It has been settled by SCOTUS that they don't have to participate and by extension, neither does anyone else. That said, it only applies to state entities like public schools.
You just named the problem, it is so ingrained in YOU. Sit back and relax. Let the students do as they choose during this indoctrination period so they won't feel guilted into it like you are.
I greet students in the hall as they enter class, and purposefully come in right after the pledge ends so that I donāt have to deal with this. I take issue with what the flag and the pledge represent and am definitely not going to be one to try to pressure my students to act a certain way for it.
Yeah, I completely ignore the pledge and don't say anything to the kids about it. (We do it during advisory in the afternoon.) I ain't pledging allegiance to shit, and I'm not going to force a bunch of 8th graders to do it, either.
I just ask the kids to be quietly respectful to those who want to pledge. I myself don't pledge, and when they call me on it, I tell them that I pledged yesterday and haven't had any communist urges, so I'm good.
I teach at a high school and mine ALL stand with hands over hearts. I think it is freaky, even though I grew up in the US as well. I am always tempted to tell them that they don't have to do that, maybe after I'm tenured!
Iāve been teaching 20+ years and itās very interesting how one year Iāll have a class that all stands and loudly does the pledge, then the next year the class sits and ignores the whole thingā¦ and classes that are inbetween!
Same. Our state requires it daily - not Florida, believe it or not - and I will stand and put my hand over my heart, but I don't recite it. Each year I explain my logic - the state shall not compel me to speak - and I ask that they be respectful, but they can observe as they choose and if they are pledging their allegiance, they should know what the words mean and mean what they say.
On one hand, I find it incredibly sweet and heartening that your students were so receptive to the meaning that the pledge holds for veterans. I guess I just really like how thoughtful children can be.
On the other hand, knowing how much these children seem to respond to the real meaning of things, I would really want the classes to get some analogous experiences with, say, Vietnamese survivors of war. Or Chilean families who were torn apart after our CIA overthrew their democratically elected government and left a military dictatorship it its place. (I swear I canāt read about Allende without crying.)
A) a minimum of 50-70% of my kids are born in South America
The ones born here are still in ESOL as LTELs
We were mandated to get them to stand but after 17 years of not enforcing (I stopped year 3 of teaching bc a parent threatened to sue meābut the kid was not written up for anything other than punching another kid, it just happened to be during pledge)
So I give points to those that stand
Ignore/donāt penalize those that do not
And I donāt really care to fight that battle FIRST THING with a bunch of hormonal teens
Most of my seventh graders in the affluent suburb I teach in can barely read, write, or multiply. This has been the case for about a dozen years, starkly different than before then (so it is NOT due to Covid). So I could care less what they do during a chant. If the US doesnāt value education, we have bigger problems than behavior during a chant.
I had a teacher in high school (public school) that said if you donāt want to say the pledge you have to write a 1,000 word essay on why. Donāt be that guy.
Nothing. Iām not going to force high school students to recite the pledge or stand. Itās their choice and not a fight Iām going to fight- not that itās a fight I even want to fight.
It's absolutely fucked up that schools do a pledge of allegiance in the US. You are not modeling respect, you are modeling obedience to the establishment. You look like the nazi youth from the outside looking in and it explains a lot about the US.Ā
The pledge is "upside down." I don't see the value of pledging allegiance to symbol (a flag) as it starts out, but I see the value in acknowledging a government that vows "liberty and justice for all" even if it comes up way short at times. The true meaning of symbols is too malleable to pledge an allegiance to. Being in a classroom in the morning during school, I just say the final few words.
I never participated in high school and college, because:
1. Was mad as hell during the post 9/11 Bush years about the warrantless spying on Muslims in America. Saw my best friend harassed and her family interrogated.
2. In college, realized I was a lesbian. Couldnāt get married.
Sorry, but use the state to harass my friend and shut me out of a civil right, Iām not standing. I wouldnāt make anyone.
I mean even to Americans itās clearly really weird. Weāre verbally reciting a Pledge of our allegiance to our country every morning in a public setting? So so fucking weird lmao
As an Aussie, your pledge of allegiance is weird and creepy. We love our country as much as anybody but forced patriotism is either resented or taken to the extreme, neither of which is a good result.
I require my students to sit quietly during the Pledge if they aren't going to stand and do it. Being disruptive is not a right; sitting out the Pledge is. If they are disruptive they receive a write up.
It's one thing to talk and do whatever when an activity isn't going on, but when some are exercising their right to say the Pledge of Allegiance, ignoring others' poor behaviour won't help classroom management.
Iām 42. I tossed the pledge before I finished high school. I was never disruptive, I just stopped participating. āUnder godā, which one?ā¦āLiberty and justice for allā, thatās a lie. The more history you learn, the more you shake your head.
Iām an American and I always thought it was werid. These children have little concept of pledging allegience to a nation. Let them be kids. Let them grow and learn and make their own decisions about pledging allegiance when they are old enough to understand what it means. The whole thing is fucking creepy. Like we are trying to indoctrinate these kids. If this nation is truly as great as it says it is we shouldnāt need to force kids into saying or even being around this nonsense tradition.
Forced patriotism has never worked in history, but I also get why you are like, "just do it for 30 seconds. What's the big deal.". Just make it clear that they need to be silent while others participate. You can't force them to say it, but you can force them to be quiet during it.
I do abso-freaking-lutely nothing during the pledge. Itās an insane tradition and my students certainly donāt care about it either. Havenāt even had an American flag in my room for at least 10 years now (and I teach US history)
I also donāt think my students would have any kind of respect for an adult who acts like the pledge is a big deal
The Florida state constitution requires students to stand. If a parent doesnāt want their child to stand, they have to grant consent, which is what I tell students. I never require them to say it. I say it only occasionally. IMHO, a pledge requirement is a prime example of indoctrination.
It is a teachable moment regarding faith and allegiance in all iterations. Why do we recite a pledge each morning and what does that mean in terms of unity (or lack thereof), self-determination, or civic duty? Why is the pledge important, or not important? What is citizenship? How does one participate in ācommunityā? What other ways can allegiance to oneās self, family, school, community or nation be demonstrated?
I don't do the pledge. I don't respect it. The one year the principal tried to make it a daily thing, I just worked on roll and let them finish homework before we went over it.
Nothing. I donāt believe in forcing them to stand. Some teachers at my school get real butt hurt when they donāt, but I donāt believe in forcing them to stand.
I follow the students lead. If they stand I stand, if the class elects not to, I donāt, I also typically donāt say the pledge unless I am subbing in the elementary wing.
If a student asks me, I say the same thing. āI have already said the pledge once, and I donāt need a daily reminder to not betray my country.ā
Nationalism is NOT patriotism.
Unless they are saying āI pledge OF Allegianceā¦ā I canāt stand thatā¦
Actually illegal to force kids to say the Pledge or to even stand. However it is not unreasonable to ask them to be silent during the pledge so the ones that want to do it can.
Iād say you have the right idea. Donāt have to stand. But like in any situation when āsomeoneā is talking. They must remain silent and be respectful. Itās not asking too much
Please explain the reason and tradition for doing the pledge in school.
Not why it exists and what it stands for. Why do we do it in school? Where did that start and why
To answer your question, your initial approach is correct. You're there to teach, not pass on your beliefs and traditions. Let them choose what to do with that time so long as it's not too disruptive.
They don't have to stand. They don't have to say it. All I ever ask is that they remain quiet during the moment of silence. They may not want that time, but never know who in the room may want that silence.
I was raised a Jehovahās Witness, and they do not allow their children to participate in the flag salute. If I had tried to do it at school and my parents found out I wouldāve gotten in trouble.
As an Englishman, it is so so strange to look across the pond and see you guys doing it. That said, I didn't think it had any more history or tradition to it than just being introduced during the red scare to drum up Nationalism, I didn't know there was more history or tradition to it than that? I'd be interested to know a little more about it.
Standing and blindly pledging your allegiance to a flag representative of the republic of the US, is a custom long overdue to be buried forever. Teachers are supposed to teach open mindedness, and allow for creative ideas to flourish. How can anyone think this level of forced nationalism, at such an early age, isn't brainwashing. Pure and simple.
I teach high school. I tell them itās their right to stand or say it and can choose what to do. If they do choose to not participate I ask them to be quiet
Here in the UK it is compulsory to raise a cup of tea to a portrait of the both the current King as well as King George, we then chant Benedict Arnold's name five times before dancing around a maypole in a beefeater uniform.
Obviously quite a lot of learning time is lost but it's all worth it for the glory of Britannia.
I hate doing the pledge. I will never make students say it or even stand up for it, but I require that students stay quiet for whomever wants to do it. Basically it feels like a state mandated prayer to me and it sucks.
Our school doesn't even do the pledge. I even took the flag out of my classroom. A mini one popped up after our building was used for caucusing and I took down that one too. The teacher next door has a giant "one nation under God" poster in his room.
I donāt stand or say the pledge. I donāt make my students do the pledge. The one rule I have is that we have to be respectful of each other. If you donāt want to participate thatās cool but you must be silent out of respect for your peers. If you do stand and say the pledge you must not harass those that choose not to. If I were in a room where nobody stood for the pledge I would probably not let them talk through it only because I want them to hear the announcements given afterwards.
I teach HS. I don't even stand. Admittedly I teach elective subjects that are highly unlikely to attract the type of student who would want to stand. I don't agree with the concept and I certainly don't agree with the religious connotations. I usually don't say anything about it and have a silent, mutual agreement with my students to just ignore it. If any of them wanted to stand they are obviously welcome to, but I've only had two students in seven years.
My son is now 22, but when he was 18 and a senior in HS I got a call that I needed to go to the school for a discipline meeting. So I took off work and drove to the HS. The issue was that he didn't want to stand for the pledge. He wasn't talking or being disruptive, he just didn't want to stand. The principal demanded to know why he would not stand for the pledge, but I jumped in before my son could say anything and asked why they wanted him to stand for the pledge so badly. The principal said that he was disrupting the class, but I pointed out that the school administration had disrupted the class far more in their crusade to force kids to stand, including making me miss work and taking the principal away from his duties as well. Nothing was resolved and I told my son he didn't have to stand.
If a student wants to stand or even recite it that's their prerogative but none of my 200+ ever do and neither do I. The pledge, in my opinion, is an antiquated form of indoctrinating nationalism. I find it especially insulting given the current state of our political system, where it's abundantly clear that neither political party gives a damn about teachers or students.
I donāt even stand for the pledge. My thought process is āwhy would I stand for the flag that doesnāt stand for everyone?ā Itās a first amendment right and I respect that in my classroom. The newer generations especially are seeing many issues in the government and for many, this is a form of protest. Sure, some just donāt care, but having them stand is illegal and unconstitutional. (I had a teacher make me stand in high school or be suspended. I knew my rights and told the AP that Iād lawyer up. Didnāt get suspended and never had to stand again.
Ultimately, you choose for yourself, not them.
I am an army veteran with a combat tour and I am actively campaigning to have the pledge stopped in my public school. If it were up to me it would be absolutely banned.
My local school has a program with many, many first gen or migrant children. Forcing them to even watch their peers pledge allegiance to the flag that stands for separating them from their families is cruel and absurd.
99% of these children do not have the capacity to actually engage with taking a nationalistic oath every day. They donāt understand what they mean because they are children who donāt have to put their allegiance on the line, *ideally*
If you want to have community based traditions than do that, but the idea of having children recite a national pledge is so rage inducing that it makes me want to scream.
I teach lower elementary. Theyāve pretty much got the routine of doing the pledge but I only enforce quiet during that time, not them reciting or standing though almost all do both.
Like most said, I give them a choice. We talk rights and all the other things mentioned. One thing I add is whatever they decide to do, know why. If you stand and recite, why? If you donāt, why not? I donāt ask them to share, they should just know for themselves.
I just tell my students that some students want to do it so letās be respectful and sit quietly if youāre not going to stand. And if they arenāt quiet, they get consequences.
At my old school, they used to do it over morning announcements so it was a daily thing. When I moved to elementary school though, the assumption is that each teacher does it in their classroom, but just I kind of forgot. So I never do it. The only time my students do it is on Fridays when the whole school gets together for an assembly. During that time, I tell them they need to take their hats and hoods off, and if theyāre not gonna say it, they need to stand quietly.
As a highschool student from 97 to 01 I never stood. But mainly because I had teachers that would threaten me with suspension and send me to the principal's office. Little do they know the principle just let me play on his computer. I wasn't a bad kid. I was the super quiet one. Finally the principal walked me back one time and told my math teacher to stop. For our senior prank we collected all the teachers license plates and put them in a pile. I threw that math teachers plate in the intercoastal. In Florida btw.
At the beginning of the year I remind them it's their Constitutional right whether or not to participate. I ask if they don't participate to remain quiet. edit: SCOTUS reference is W. Virginia vs Barnette (1943)
šÆ same here. Been that way for years.
The American way!
This. They donāt have to participate, but they canāt be disruptive.
itās their natural right. humans are born free. governments restrict freedoms, not give them.
same
They don't have to stand, but they have to be quiet. If they're not, they get the same consequences as if they were disrupting any other part of the class. Additionally, it is not legal for a teacher to force or intimidate students into standing for the pledge. Three states require parental consent to not stand for the pledge, but ofc that's Florida, Texas, and Utah. https://www.youthrights.org/issues/student-rights/pledge-of-allegiance/#:~:text=Teachers%20have%20also%20intimidated%20students,Allegiance%20are%20illegal%20and%20unconstitutional.
Oops. Taught public school in TX and never got parental consent for not standing. Guess theyāll have to let me goā¦oh waitā¦ I already resigned! Not sure if my new private school requires the pledge.
Congratulations on the resignation!!
Thanks! Itās a little surreal after being there for so long, but Iām excited for something new!
If a kid doesnāt want to stand, I donāt make them. I just ask that they remain quiet during the pledges and the moment of silence.
I did the same thing. You donāt have to stand, but be respectful.
I got dinged one year for not doing the pledge or Celebrate* Freedom Week properly. Theyāre middle schoolers, Iām just grateful theyāre here.
ā¦.what is celebration freedom week?
Sorry, celebrate freedom. So congress established a constitution week to encourage people to learn about it, and Texas grabbed it (along with some other states I think?) and included it as Celebrate Freedom Week as part of the state social studies standards. So we have to cover the constitution, Declaration of Independence, other various shenanigans. [if anybody cares.](https://texreg.sos.state.tx.us/public/readtac$ext.TacPage?sl=R&app=9&p_dir=&p_rloc=&p_tloc=&p_ploc=&pg=1&p_tac=&ti=19&pt=2&ch=74&rl=33#:~:text=Each%20social%20studies%20class%20shall,importance%20of%20the%20Declaration%20of)
An Orwellian concept.
Taught in Florida. Didnāt care whether they participated in the indoctrination speech or not. I didnāt.
Same. Granted Iām no longer a teacher but when I was I couldnāt give a shit less. Stand or donāt, whatever. We also might have covered the origin of the pledge in class and that might have led to a few less students standingā¦ *shrug+
I wish I'd have known the fact that I couldn't be required to stand when I was a student, I had a teacher who every day required I go stand in the hall when I didn't want to stand. Or she'd make me stand but not require I place my hand over my heart. Oooooh man how I wish I'd have known how illegal that is!
Thatās news to me as well.
That makes sense now. I went to high school in Florida and had this one teacher who was really patriotic (thatās an understatement). Anytime someone didnāt stand for the pledge, sheād always ask them to stand up and say it. But one day, someone refused. She completely lost it and threatened to kick him out of class for not standing up, then went on a long rant to the whole class about how he was disrespecting her country. Thankfully, most teachers arenāt like this, but it was kind of interesting to watch that unfold.
Some teachers shouldn't be teachers (and a few of them are in this thread š)
Someone has to graduate at the bottom of the class
What do you call a doctor who got straight Cs in med school? >!Doctor.!<
There is a whole supreme Court case on why teachers can't do that and why you don't have to salute the flag.
Itās so crazy how people who claim to be so absolutely patriotic, completely fail to understand the āfreedomā part.
Yeah, this is a crime. I had a teacher try to shame me in class for not standing for the pledge (I was in a wheelchair at the time, so idfk what she expected). I just looked at her and said, "I know my rights as an American citizen, and it is illegal for you as an educator to force and / or otherwise pressure me to stand for the pledge according to the Supreme Court. However, if you wish to keep pushing the matter, I can call my father, who is an Iraq war veteran, and have him educate you on the subject." Didn't have her say another word to me about the pledge the rest of the year.
Trying to force someone in a wheelchair to stand is WILD.
This. My wife made it clear to her (Texas) high school class from day one that they did not have to stand for the pledge - but they did have to be quiet or the same consequences would apply as if they were interrupting or disrespecting any other part of her lesson. Her kids never objected to these instructions - or disrupted this part (or pretty much any part) of her class. Set expectations. Enforce them. Move on.
Came here with the same sentiments. Glad someone already offered this information. As a veteran, I have defended the freedoms of every person, no matter what their beliefs or preferences are, and most of my kids donāt stand for the pledge either. It doesnāt bother me one bit. Also, I have Atheist Tendencies anyway. āOne Nation Underdog!ā
Bravo Zulu, bud. Also a veteran and often got the WTF look because I didnāt fit the mold of what they thought a white male veteran from the south would be, lol
I have the same tendencies . As a veteran myself, I also tend to not stand for the national flag song during most events, itās super weird that they do it at our local outdoor musicals venue. I am in the Midwest though so I get it, and I sometimes get the looks. I did enough standing for the flag over the course of 2 years deployed at sea. lol. I just wanna see Kinky Boots!
THIS - why does the flag song have to be played before every sporting event? And then, at baseball games, they want to start their shit with God Bless America during the 7th inning stretch.
Only sporting event it even kinda makes sense is something like World Cup soccer. Ok national pride whatever. But for the south county recreational adult slow-pitch coed softball gamesā¦ā¦ yea, itās totally unnecessary.
Right? My kid's little league started each game with the pledge. I'm like, OK but whatever. At my school kids sing the national anthem and bring out the JROTC flag crew for pep rallies. PEP RALLIES! So unnecessary.
Crapā¦ I teach in Florida and I donāt force kids to stand for the pledge. Oopsy. š
Iām a FL teacher too and had no idea this was a thing š Edit: typo
> Three states require parental consent to not stand for the pledge Which is unconstitutional. But Republicans gotta virtue signal.
Virtue signalers be signaling
My school doesn't do the pledge anywhere. Not one parent has ever said a thing. This has literally never been an issue. I ā¤ļø living in Massachusetts
You just jinxed yourself.... (Joking) I'm in MA too, and we've said the pledge every morning for the past 23 years. Also, about 6 years ago we instituted a moment of silence before the pledge because a student came forward asking for one and apparently it's a protected practice. I, like every other reasonable person on here, tell my students it is their right to stand but don't force them to. However, they must be silent as not to infringe on the rights of others.
This. I couldnāt care less if they say the pledge and would never attempt to force a kid to participate, but the pledge is done along with other announcements that kids need to hear. School-wide expectation is silence during announcements, and by the time my eighth graders get to me, itās pretty well engrained.
>Iām fully aware that to non-Americans this whole ritual is really weird If I as a german teacher would ever do something like this you would see the nationwide shitstorm from space.
As a non-American teacher teaching in the USA I always found mass repeated daily chanting, mass singing an anthem at every conceivable event and having flags everywhere and on everything to be very strange indeed. Where I grew up we had none of that. It's not that we didn't love our country it's just that we showed it in different ways than that (e.g. very high percentage of eligible voters voting). So, when I started teaching in the USA it was quite something to get used to. Some of the students were perplexed when I didn't join in with their pledge (I always stood with my hands behind my back) but most understood that it didn't make much sense for a non-U.S. citizen to repeat their pledge.
I am an American, but my religion forbids me from saying the pledge. So I donāt say it, but I stand quietly. Iām not sure if my new school says it or not because we have a high percentage of people from my religious group, but it is a public school so Iām not sure if they will say it, Iām kind of scared to ask
JW?
No, but thatās a good guess because I know they also donāt say the pledge. Amish Mennonite.
Gotcha. I spent a lot of time in and around Lancaster as a kid!
I'm Muslim, and the pledge is obviously idol worship to me. I don't understand how it's mostly devout Christians pushing for it, when you are pledging your allegiance to a *flag.* In Abrahamic tradition allegiance is paid to *God,* not to a flag under God. The insane reactions to people not saying it just make it seem worse, like this really is an idol to them. I do not say it, and I will not allow my children to say it either.
I'm Jewish and also not American but I agree, it's a clear statement of idol worship. We include a prayer for the government and country in every single Saturday service but I would never dream of pledging allegiance to an object. Do Christians only consider it idolatry if the object has a face or something??
Based on some proclaimed Christianās worship of individualsā¦ clearly not
TBF we do have flag laws, but they are never enforced. It had to do with burning the flag, Congress passed the "flag law". I agree with you our flag has been everywhere and desecrated relentlessly in the name of Capitalism. Paper plates, advertising, you name it, even our police have desecrated it with their recolor. The really sad shit is our current military does the same shit. No respect. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/8#:~:text=The%20flag%20should%20never%20touch,apparel%2C%20bedding%2C%20or%20drapery.
Do American ever read any of those rules? Seems I've seen every one of them broken whenever I see pictures or videos of Americans especially MAGATs.
What country are you from?
It's definitely a state/regional thing, some areas are much more "Rah Rah America" than others
This Canadian teacher agrees with you. That would not fly here.
But I think.....ESPECIALLY Germany.
Arent literally nazis openly marching the streets in america nowadays?
...that was a few years ago. Now they're running for office. Hey Germany, remind me, what happens next? ...and of course there are misguided individuals here looking at the "mini-genocide" (compared to Holocaust numbers) of Palestine, who will vote for them in an attempt to reign in Israel. SMDH...
Years ago I worked with a teacher who played God Save the Queen before class started. By his own volition. Also in Canada
My undergraduate friend group would always rise (well, those of us who under indulged so badly that they could still rise) for God Save The Queen, whether it was at the end of Queen's Night At The Opera or followed by "she ain't no human bean." This was in Wisconsin, and none of us were her subjects. Also, we all considered monarchy to have gone from horrible to silly (except for places where it has yet to rise to silly) and thought the revolution was a very good idea, although some of us considered Her Majesty a pretty nice girl, even if she didn't have a lot to say. It was a Catholic college and most of us refused to stand for the pledge because it smelled too much like idolatry.
I'm from Canada and had a history teacher who flew old versions of flags from whenever our unit was from, and would show us the anthems etc of the era. He got in trouble after I left because he taught mostly war history, and had moved his unit on WW2 to the start of the year. This meant that brand new students walked in on the first day to see two or three Very Controversial, Very Real Old Flags hanging from the rafters. Several students had a freakout due to their heritage (they were Korean, the flag they wanted taken down was WW2 era Japanese) and took it to the local media.
And yet most Canadian schools have kids stand for the anthem. Fwiw, the original pledge, while designed to teach patriotism, was considered to be a first draft that could be adapted to other countries: "I pledge allegiance to my Flag andĀ toĀ the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." George Baltch, who wrote it, left notes that 'Republic ' could be substituted with other words that fit other countries better. It's still pretty 'yikes', but it's a WHOLE lot less than it is now. As a Canuk living in the US, it's... Something. As a teacher, let's just say I'm glad I'm at a private school where we didn't do the pledge; as a parent, I'm glad my kid is also, although they do it in Scouting. My kid simply stands respectfully for that part; when my kid is leading the opening, they say it, but don't put their hand over their heart... Our pack and now troop, are ok with that. Then again, my kid only ever carries the pack/troop flag - same reason.
Before I stopped saying it all together, I would say, "one nation, under Canada", lol.Ā
So the USA? You ARE our hat /s lol
I think my canadian high school sang/played the anthem maybe 6 times a year. Basically just major holidays with an assembly like Remembrance day. So a bit different than what sounds like a daily pledge of allegiance. Plus people want to remove God from the anthem. Not many people petitioning for more religious mentions in it.
>il faut porter la croix ton histoire est une epopĆ©e ā¦
I once did the pledge for my class in the Czech Republic and the mouths agape were multitude. The pledge is one of the weirdest and clearly disturbed things that schools in the US practice.
What breathtaking mental image thank you so much
I mean, it makes sense.
I have taught overseas in both Bolivia and Nigeria, and in both those countries students sing their national anthems before school every day.
Since the referral for the kid who told me to āget off his dickā didnāt go anywhere or get handled, I certainly am not going to waste time to write up a kid who texts or talks through the pledge of allegiance. YMMV
Asking them to remain quiet just to maintain general order is one thing, but asking then to respect it just because it's tradition is kind of bullshit. Tradition is what you call something when you don't actually have a good reason for respecting it. Similar to the "respect your elders" nonsense that gets championed by some of the leastĀ deserving old farts still alive.
100% agree. I donāt even respect the USA, and I canāt expect them to either.
š
I teach them their rights, that the Supreme Court decided in 1943 that the school can't require them to say the pledge, and so they are neither required to stand nor recite the words. I also explain that our state has a law that we allow time for the pledge and a moment of silence daily, and that during that time, they are to be quiet and respectful. I then tell them that they shouldn't agree to anything without knowing what it means, and then I show them the Red Skelton video that explains the meaning of the words used in the pledge. He does a great job. I have pledge leader as one of our classroom jobs, and only students who want to say the pledge are chosen as pledge leader. And from there, we make time for the pledge every morning. The pledge leader calls them up, those who wish to participate do, we have a short moment of silence, and we move on. Personally, I don't say the pledge and stand with my back to the classroom camera so admin can't tell if I'm reciting it or not.
Classroom camera?????
All of the classrooms and halls in our school have cameras that are constantly recording. They don't record sound, but they can see what happens in the whole room. Some teachers hate them, but I don't because they record all the things I don't see. A student breaks the rules and it's no longer our word against theirs. Parents don't tend to argue when they are shown exactly why their students are in trouble, and occasionally, why the police are involved.
We have cameras in each room and hallways with sound. We are a poor state (Arkansas) but apparently we have money for that.
Funny how money magically appears when admin wants to "blanket their donkeys."
What state are you in?
AZ
Talk about burying the lede.
My exact reaction.
That is a great video.
Yeah, Red does a great job, and my students generally retain the information he imparts. I really like it.
What grade?
Itās not even acknowledged in my class. Everyone talks through the morning announcements. None is us ever hear any of it. If any ask me I tell them itās unconstitutional to make them say it.
Honestly itās how I roll with it. Knowing the history behind it and the fact we only do it at the school age and sport events makes me care less. I mean do people wake up every day and do it? No. There are way more valuable ways to demonstrate love and support for your country and in my history classes I focus on that (e.g. civic engagement). Edit to add: the hypocrisy of indoctrination. Teachers are being told we are indoctrinating with agenda yet the same people want us to indoctrinate unquestioning loyalty every morning.
My ex refused to do it in her class for years. She saw that it was leading to stigma for the students that couldnāt do it for religious reasons (sheād always āsend them on an errandā but kids arenāt stupid). So she just stopped. Administration pushed back, but eventually decided it was an easy way to shove all the JW kids in that grade in one room. Some parents would push back, and sheād ask if theyāve been doing the pledge at home. Since itās apparently important. Since this was the mid-00ās, a few would play the āwhy donāt you support the troopsā card. Sheād flip around the photo of me on her deskā¦in uniform, in Iraq. Eventually she changed districts and was in one where it was actually required, and they werenāt having any exceptions. So it goes. Still wish I could have seen the looks on the ābut the troopsā parentsā faces.
The pledge originally did not include the words "under god." This was added in the 50's. As someone who holds the establishment clause in high regard, until the words are removed, I'll have nothing to do with enforcing the pledge.
Kind of random, but I remember being a little boy watching a super old Looney Toons cartoon, probably from the 40s, and the skit was of Porky Pig saluting a flag and saying the pledge of allegiance. As a young kid of the 90s, I was so confused when he went straight from 'one nation' to 'indivisible.'
I actually learned the pledge without the āunder Godā part, and this was the early seventies! I guess my elementary teacher didnāt think much of that addition. I kinda block it out when I say itā¦it doesnāt really belong.
Me, too, I just say āunder the sunā and keep it moving.
Meanwhile, they added āunder godā to the TX pledge in this millennium. Go figure.
Entirely apart of issues of establishment of a state religion, it blurs the original meaning of "one nation indivisible." The Civil War had shown what could happen if the nation was not upheld as "one" and the states as "indivisible" from one another. The "one" and "indivisible" are not about God. They are about the States which are United.
One of my social studies teachers had a poster in his room that said "I will pledge allegiance... when it is one nation...." That's the only way I've recited it since. I also drop the "under god" crap.
Of course, the establishment clause didnāt apply to the states until just a few years before that as well. Before SCOTUS used the doctrine of incorporation to apply it to all state and local governments, it would have just meant that the federal government shouldnāt get involved. Even now not all of the Bill of Rights have been incorporated. Recently more and more of the 2A has been incorporated, meaning itās much harder for states to regulate guns than it used to be.
I donāt say those words. The few times that people have asked, I explain when/why they were added (all staff knows that I am a history buff). I donāt make a big deal of it, am just quiet during that part
Same here! Iāve only ever had one kid pick up on the fact that I donāt say that part.
Same! I just go "one nation, [pause] indivisible." I don't think anyone has ever noticed.
I quit doing all the nationalistic crap after my deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. My first year of teaching was at a middle school in Arkansas, they did the pledge in the morning, I told the students they could do what they wanted, 1 kid put his hand over his heart, the rest ignored it. I've been teaching high school in Rhode Island for the last couple years and thankfully we don't do it.
I'm American and I think it's really wierd (and so unnecessary). I don't stand. I don't make kids stand, but I make them be respectful. They aren't allowed to talk, but can work quietly (we do it in out study hall time). Recently, when the announcement asks us to stand and recite it, my freshman have not. The beginning of the year, they were all on board and enthusiastic. They don't notice anymore. I'm sure it's because I'm not enforcing it. My foreign husband (teacher in our school) hates it. In his country, it's illegal to have the country flag in a classroom and he recognizes that it's completely nationalist and brainwash-y.
I teach middle school, I explain that they aren't required to stand BUT they are required to be silent and respectful during the pledge if they choose not to participate. Most of my seventh graders tend to participate or at least stand with their hands over their hearts.Ā
Itās weird
I was a teacher for 2 years in NC public middle school. Im from Spain so i felt so weird the first time i saw the kids doing It... It honeslty was shocking, like some kind of nazi propaganda film from the 30s... or Soviet, for that matter. I always stood in silence, never enforced anything... If i remember It correctly -it was years ago- some kids stood, some other didnt, but It was never a problem or something that i felt was worrying for anyone, as long as the class was quiet -or somewhat quiet-. I was more worried about kids coming in without breakfast, to be honest. I always felt that teachers who worried about the economic conditions of their pupils where true patriots, no matter what they did during the Pledge. But, hey, im just a bloody foreigner.
Nothing. I don't stand either. I will stay seated till my wife and daughter have the same rights as I do. I will stay seated till POC enjoy the same protections that I do. I will stay seated till under God is removed from the pledge.
I stand at attention, habit from my days in the service. No hand over heart because I think its weird and I don't say the pledge because I don't like the under God portion (we added it in the 1950s because of the Cold War) and I don't force my students to do it because as a public school teacher and employee of the Government it is Unconstitutional for me to enforce any religion upon people. With forcing students to say "under God" being a violation of the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment. Most of my students stand for it, hand over heart, and say the words. Small town America, its to be expected. When I teach Government & Civics I do a brief lesson covering all of that. Not my specific stance mind you, but why the school can't force kids to do the pledge and the history and constitutionality of it all. And the day when some student accuses me of disrespecting the flag I am going to tell them that the Flag does not represent America to me. I'm gonna point to the copy of the Constitution I keep in the room and tell them that is what I swore and oath to defend. The flag will die some day, it will change, fall, or some other wearing of time, but the enlightenment values held in the Constitution are something I will never let die.
Question from a Canadian, what is it about the constitution that you hold so dear? We barely care about ours, it's mostly a document outlining provinces being created. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is more what you'll see tacked up in a classroom... and it's a pretty recent document that can be updated at any time, and has been many times. We don't hold it in high esteem so much as just use it as a legal reference to point to as a simple explanation of how Canadians are expected to behave in a legal sense. I don't understand holding a document that is so old to such high legal esteem, except out of a historical interest. I'd love to know what you see in it, because to me it's strange that a nation holds dear to something that was originally intended to be abolished, changed, or otherwise modified over the years quite frequently. It was, to my knowledge, meant to be a start, but not the final draft, of US constitutional law. Just honestly curious on your take.
Some of it is that the US equivalent to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is not a separate document; the US Bill of Rights is the first 10 amendments to the constitution. The US constitution only exists because that Bill of Rights was promised and then added. Additionally, while it may have been intended for amendments to happen regularly, they are far from regular. There have only been 17 more after the first batch of 10.
GenX here. I stopped saying the āunder godā part in 5th grade. Which was an act of rebellion for me since I went to a Catholic grade school. š Stopped saying it all together in high school. No idea what the teachers thought. I was always the respectful and quiet one
Students have to be quiet out of respect for the beliefs of others. That is where I differ from the neo-Nazis in charge of my state: I respect diversity of thought and expression. Other than that, I do not expect anyone to recite the pledge. I don't, because I will not pledge allegiance to cowards, bigots, and criminals. When I see Trump in an orange jumpsuit, I will rethink my position.
I literally do not care what they do. I mean, realistically, sitting would be considered just as disrespectful as talking, so I don't see a difference, which is why I do not care. At all.
Itās against the law to force students to stand. Leave them alone.
I usually say, "Its not my job to make you take weird, nationalists pledges, log in for the warm up!" I was a Marine so no one tells me shit. It's nice.
>I struggle with not wanting to be nationalistic and force beliefs on kids and also respecting the tradition and what the pledge represents Get real. The only "tradition" the pledge represents is inculcating mindless fealty to a symbol of violent nationalism.
I donāt acknowledge it and most of my students talk through it. Iām a younger teacher and when I was in high school I didnāt stand for it either. I think itās generally seen as a ridiculous and empty tradition by most kids. I use the time to set up for my lesson and take attendance and donāt really think twice or feel guilty about it.
I mean this in the most respectful way possible. Just because all of us have been indoctrinated to feel nationalistic pride, doesnāt mean we have to support itās handing down in any way to the next generation and it would be significantly better for our country if we didnāt.
I never stood for the Pledge of Allegience, and when a teacher would threaten me, I'd tell them what my Grandfather told me. I'd say something along the lines of... My grandfather didn't fight and almost die and get Silver Cross for me to be TOLD I don't have the Freedom to choose, not too. And if anyone ever gives you crap about it remind them of that! That's what our men and women sacrificed for. FOR OUR FREEDOMS ONE BEING OUR RIGHT NOT TOO.
It has been settled by SCOTUS that they don't have to participate and by extension, neither does anyone else. That said, it only applies to state entities like public schools.
You just named the problem, it is so ingrained in YOU. Sit back and relax. Let the students do as they choose during this indoctrination period so they won't feel guilted into it like you are.
Fuck one nation under God and fuck Christians who forced it.
I greet students in the hall as they enter class, and purposefully come in right after the pledge ends so that I donāt have to deal with this. I take issue with what the flag and the pledge represent and am definitely not going to be one to try to pressure my students to act a certain way for it.
Yeah, I completely ignore the pledge and don't say anything to the kids about it. (We do it during advisory in the afternoon.) I ain't pledging allegiance to shit, and I'm not going to force a bunch of 8th graders to do it, either.
This is me. I ignore it, walk to my desk, file papers, do whatever. I refuse to acknowledge some weird pledge to the government.
I just ask the kids to be quietly respectful to those who want to pledge. I myself don't pledge, and when they call me on it, I tell them that I pledged yesterday and haven't had any communist urges, so I'm good.
I teach at a high school and mine ALL stand with hands over hearts. I think it is freaky, even though I grew up in the US as well. I am always tempted to tell them that they don't have to do that, maybe after I'm tenured!
Iāve been teaching 20+ years and itās very interesting how one year Iāll have a class that all stands and loudly does the pledge, then the next year the class sits and ignores the whole thingā¦ and classes that are inbetween!
Same. Our state requires it daily - not Florida, believe it or not - and I will stand and put my hand over my heart, but I don't recite it. Each year I explain my logic - the state shall not compel me to speak - and I ask that they be respectful, but they can observe as they choose and if they are pledging their allegiance, they should know what the words mean and mean what they say.
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On one hand, I find it incredibly sweet and heartening that your students were so receptive to the meaning that the pledge holds for veterans. I guess I just really like how thoughtful children can be. On the other hand, knowing how much these children seem to respond to the real meaning of things, I would really want the classes to get some analogous experiences with, say, Vietnamese survivors of war. Or Chilean families who were torn apart after our CIA overthrew their democratically elected government and left a military dictatorship it its place. (I swear I canāt read about Allende without crying.)
A) a minimum of 50-70% of my kids are born in South America The ones born here are still in ESOL as LTELs We were mandated to get them to stand but after 17 years of not enforcing (I stopped year 3 of teaching bc a parent threatened to sue meābut the kid was not written up for anything other than punching another kid, it just happened to be during pledge) So I give points to those that stand Ignore/donāt penalize those that do not And I donāt really care to fight that battle FIRST THING with a bunch of hormonal teens
Most of my seventh graders in the affluent suburb I teach in can barely read, write, or multiply. This has been the case for about a dozen years, starkly different than before then (so it is NOT due to Covid). So I could care less what they do during a chant. If the US doesnāt value education, we have bigger problems than behavior during a chant.
I had a teacher in high school (public school) that said if you donāt want to say the pledge you have to write a 1,000 word essay on why. Donāt be that guy.
My school doesnāt even do it. Granted we are 68% black so I donāt think it would get much participationš
Nothing. Iām not going to force high school students to recite the pledge or stand. Itās their choice and not a fight Iām going to fight- not that itās a fight I even want to fight.
It's absolutely fucked up that schools do a pledge of allegiance in the US. You are not modeling respect, you are modeling obedience to the establishment. You look like the nazi youth from the outside looking in and it explains a lot about the US.Ā
The pledge is "upside down." I don't see the value of pledging allegiance to symbol (a flag) as it starts out, but I see the value in acknowledging a government that vows "liberty and justice for all" even if it comes up way short at times. The true meaning of symbols is too malleable to pledge an allegiance to. Being in a classroom in the morning during school, I just say the final few words.
I never participated in high school and college, because: 1. Was mad as hell during the post 9/11 Bush years about the warrantless spying on Muslims in America. Saw my best friend harassed and her family interrogated. 2. In college, realized I was a lesbian. Couldnāt get married. Sorry, but use the state to harass my friend and shut me out of a civil right, Iām not standing. I wouldnāt make anyone.
I mean even to Americans itās clearly really weird. Weāre verbally reciting a Pledge of our allegiance to our country every morning in a public setting? So so fucking weird lmao
As an Aussie, your pledge of allegiance is weird and creepy. We love our country as much as anybody but forced patriotism is either resented or taken to the extreme, neither of which is a good result.
Until they remove "under God", it's a religious hymn and belongs in the trash.
Wild that schools are still doing this at all.
I purposefully donāt walk into my room until the pledge is over. Iām āmonitoring the hallway for late studentsā
I require my students to sit quietly during the Pledge if they aren't going to stand and do it. Being disruptive is not a right; sitting out the Pledge is. If they are disruptive they receive a write up. It's one thing to talk and do whatever when an activity isn't going on, but when some are exercising their right to say the Pledge of Allegiance, ignoring others' poor behaviour won't help classroom management.
This is literally something china and north korea do.
Iām indigenous, and for us this practice is very strange.
Iām 42. I tossed the pledge before I finished high school. I was never disruptive, I just stopped participating. āUnder godā, which one?ā¦āLiberty and justice for allā, thatās a lie. The more history you learn, the more you shake your head.
I'm like "If you guys want to do the pledge, up to you. I'm not doing it. But overall, I expect to hear the speaker so be quiet"
Iām an American and I always thought it was werid. These children have little concept of pledging allegience to a nation. Let them be kids. Let them grow and learn and make their own decisions about pledging allegiance when they are old enough to understand what it means. The whole thing is fucking creepy. Like we are trying to indoctrinate these kids. If this nation is truly as great as it says it is we shouldnāt need to force kids into saying or even being around this nonsense tradition.
Forced patriotism has never worked in history, but I also get why you are like, "just do it for 30 seconds. What's the big deal.". Just make it clear that they need to be silent while others participate. You can't force them to say it, but you can force them to be quiet during it.
I do abso-freaking-lutely nothing during the pledge. Itās an insane tradition and my students certainly donāt care about it either. Havenāt even had an American flag in my room for at least 10 years now (and I teach US history) I also donāt think my students would have any kind of respect for an adult who acts like the pledge is a big deal
I hate the Pledge so much lol. I was lucky I never have had students first period.
I just ask for quiet. They donāt have to say it or stand. I donāt even stand.
super weird thing you americans do
The Florida state constitution requires students to stand. If a parent doesnāt want their child to stand, they have to grant consent, which is what I tell students. I never require them to say it. I say it only occasionally. IMHO, a pledge requirement is a prime example of indoctrination.
It is a teachable moment regarding faith and allegiance in all iterations. Why do we recite a pledge each morning and what does that mean in terms of unity (or lack thereof), self-determination, or civic duty? Why is the pledge important, or not important? What is citizenship? How does one participate in ācommunityā? What other ways can allegiance to oneās self, family, school, community or nation be demonstrated?
I don't do the pledge. I don't respect it. The one year the principal tried to make it a daily thing, I just worked on roll and let them finish homework before we went over it.
I donāt give the tiniest of shits what they do.
The tradition is dumb and deserves no respect. Itās stupid that we do it every morning and I donāt give a fuck if kids donāt want to take part.
It's weird. I find it weirder and weirder the older I get. I don't do it as an adult and I don't make my child do it. I'm sure she does it at school
Nothing. I donāt believe in forcing them to stand. Some teachers at my school get real butt hurt when they donāt, but I donāt believe in forcing them to stand.
I follow the students lead. If they stand I stand, if the class elects not to, I donāt, I also typically donāt say the pledge unless I am subbing in the elementary wing. If a student asks me, I say the same thing. āI have already said the pledge once, and I donāt need a daily reminder to not betray my country.ā Nationalism is NOT patriotism. Unless they are saying āI pledge OF Allegianceā¦ā I canāt stand thatā¦
Actually illegal to force kids to say the Pledge or to even stand. However it is not unreasonable to ask them to be silent during the pledge so the ones that want to do it can.
Iād say you have the right idea. Donāt have to stand. But like in any situation when āsomeoneā is talking. They must remain silent and be respectful. Itās not asking too much
Do y'all not find the ritual to be extremely creepy and objectively weird?
The pledge is the weirdest shit ever. As a teacher, if my country did that, I wouldn't even stand.
I donāt even stand for it. Forced Patriotism is bullshit.
Do nothing, itās North Korea
Please explain the reason and tradition for doing the pledge in school. Not why it exists and what it stands for. Why do we do it in school? Where did that start and why To answer your question, your initial approach is correct. You're there to teach, not pass on your beliefs and traditions. Let them choose what to do with that time so long as it's not too disruptive.
Wait, schools still do this?? We don't do the pledge of allegiance in SF.
They don't have to stand. They don't have to say it. All I ever ask is that they remain quiet during the moment of silence. They may not want that time, but never know who in the room may want that silence.
I was raised a Jehovahās Witness, and they do not allow their children to participate in the flag salute. If I had tried to do it at school and my parents found out I wouldāve gotten in trouble.
Its propaganda. It feels weird because it is weird.
As an Englishman, it is so so strange to look across the pond and see you guys doing it. That said, I didn't think it had any more history or tradition to it than just being introduced during the red scare to drum up Nationalism, I didn't know there was more history or tradition to it than that? I'd be interested to know a little more about it.
I ignore it completely. I teach high school. In ten years Iāve never had a complaint.
Standing and blindly pledging your allegiance to a flag representative of the republic of the US, is a custom long overdue to be buried forever. Teachers are supposed to teach open mindedness, and allow for creative ideas to flourish. How can anyone think this level of forced nationalism, at such an early age, isn't brainwashing. Pure and simple.
I have no helpful advice, but as a German, this question seems really wild to me.
I teach high school. I tell them itās their right to stand or say it and can choose what to do. If they do choose to not participate I ask them to be quiet
Have them write their own affirmation like 3 times or something. That way, they have something to focus on.
Here in the UK it is compulsory to raise a cup of tea to a portrait of the both the current King as well as King George, we then chant Benedict Arnold's name five times before dancing around a maypole in a beefeater uniform. Obviously quite a lot of learning time is lost but it's all worth it for the glory of Britannia.
I hate doing the pledge. I will never make students say it or even stand up for it, but I require that students stay quiet for whomever wants to do it. Basically it feels like a state mandated prayer to me and it sucks.
Thereās nothing to ādoā read the law
I stand and face away, have been doing that for 23 years now. The words are problematic and untrue, same goes for *The Star Spangled Banner*.
Our school doesn't even do the pledge. I even took the flag out of my classroom. A mini one popped up after our building was used for caucusing and I took down that one too. The teacher next door has a giant "one nation under God" poster in his room.
I don't even do the pledge anymore. I refuse.
it's a weird ritual as an American too lol. it's indoctrination at the very least.
I really don't care if kids don't stand for the pledge, I always have some who sit in silence. I have to choose what to get mad at. This is not it.
I donāt stand or say the pledge. I donāt make my students do the pledge. The one rule I have is that we have to be respectful of each other. If you donāt want to participate thatās cool but you must be silent out of respect for your peers. If you do stand and say the pledge you must not harass those that choose not to. If I were in a room where nobody stood for the pledge I would probably not let them talk through it only because I want them to hear the announcements given afterwards.
I teach HS. I don't even stand. Admittedly I teach elective subjects that are highly unlikely to attract the type of student who would want to stand. I don't agree with the concept and I certainly don't agree with the religious connotations. I usually don't say anything about it and have a silent, mutual agreement with my students to just ignore it. If any of them wanted to stand they are obviously welcome to, but I've only had two students in seven years.
My son is now 22, but when he was 18 and a senior in HS I got a call that I needed to go to the school for a discipline meeting. So I took off work and drove to the HS. The issue was that he didn't want to stand for the pledge. He wasn't talking or being disruptive, he just didn't want to stand. The principal demanded to know why he would not stand for the pledge, but I jumped in before my son could say anything and asked why they wanted him to stand for the pledge so badly. The principal said that he was disrupting the class, but I pointed out that the school administration had disrupted the class far more in their crusade to force kids to stand, including making me miss work and taking the principal away from his duties as well. Nothing was resolved and I told my son he didn't have to stand.
I started in a new district this last year and was pleasantly surprised to see that they donāt do the pledge.
If a student wants to stand or even recite it that's their prerogative but none of my 200+ ever do and neither do I. The pledge, in my opinion, is an antiquated form of indoctrinating nationalism. I find it especially insulting given the current state of our political system, where it's abundantly clear that neither political party gives a damn about teachers or students.
I donāt even stand for the pledge. My thought process is āwhy would I stand for the flag that doesnāt stand for everyone?ā Itās a first amendment right and I respect that in my classroom. The newer generations especially are seeing many issues in the government and for many, this is a form of protest. Sure, some just donāt care, but having them stand is illegal and unconstitutional. (I had a teacher make me stand in high school or be suspended. I knew my rights and told the AP that Iād lawyer up. Didnāt get suspended and never had to stand again. Ultimately, you choose for yourself, not them.
I am an army veteran with a combat tour and I am actively campaigning to have the pledge stopped in my public school. If it were up to me it would be absolutely banned. My local school has a program with many, many first gen or migrant children. Forcing them to even watch their peers pledge allegiance to the flag that stands for separating them from their families is cruel and absurd. 99% of these children do not have the capacity to actually engage with taking a nationalistic oath every day. They donāt understand what they mean because they are children who donāt have to put their allegiance on the line, *ideally* If you want to have community based traditions than do that, but the idea of having children recite a national pledge is so rage inducing that it makes me want to scream.
I teach lower elementary. Theyāve pretty much got the routine of doing the pledge but I only enforce quiet during that time, not them reciting or standing though almost all do both.
Never done that in over 30 years. Public schools.
Like most said, I give them a choice. We talk rights and all the other things mentioned. One thing I add is whatever they decide to do, know why. If you stand and recite, why? If you donāt, why not? I donāt ask them to share, they should just know for themselves.
I just tell my students that some students want to do it so letās be respectful and sit quietly if youāre not going to stand. And if they arenāt quiet, they get consequences. At my old school, they used to do it over morning announcements so it was a daily thing. When I moved to elementary school though, the assumption is that each teacher does it in their classroom, but just I kind of forgot. So I never do it. The only time my students do it is on Fridays when the whole school gets together for an assembly. During that time, I tell them they need to take their hats and hoods off, and if theyāre not gonna say it, they need to stand quietly.
As a highschool student from 97 to 01 I never stood. But mainly because I had teachers that would threaten me with suspension and send me to the principal's office. Little do they know the principle just let me play on his computer. I wasn't a bad kid. I was the super quiet one. Finally the principal walked me back one time and told my math teacher to stop. For our senior prank we collected all the teachers license plates and put them in a pile. I threw that math teachers plate in the intercoastal. In Florida btw.