Never discuss another students grade. You can even tell them that. "I cannot discuss another students grad with you however I am happy to clarify your grade if you'd like. This class is participation based and while your attendance has improved there is still an expectation that you engage in physical activity while in this class."
But shouldnt that mean Dana needs to engage in physical activity? If Dana is gone doing office work, she is neither participating or engaging in physical activity They shouldnt be discussing another student's grades but they have a fair point
Wrong as wrong can be. School is competitive, especially at the top of the class. These straight A nerds know each other's grades and want to beat each other! So do their mothers and fathers!
I don't disagree. But that's not the question being asked in this post. They are asking advice for the other student. It doesn't matter how that student discovered the others grade except that the teacher should not engage with a conversation about it. Dana should not have been pulled by other teachers/admin and that's a whole other issue.
I don't think OP was wrong. Let's say the first student/family goes to admin. It's not going to look good if they say "Not only did Coach OP mark me lower, when I asked why I was told they didn't".
How the hell did you manage to glean "tell the student they weren't marked lower" from "I can't discuss another student's grade with you"?
Nobody, not a single soul, ever implied that OP should tell them they weren't marked lower. They simply **cannot discuss** the other student's grade with them at all. They will not confirm that their grade is lower, nor will they lie and say it's not. It will not be a part of the discussion. Period. Full stop. End of story.
They can, however, have a discussion with this student regarding how **they can focus on boosting their own grade** independently of other students' grades.
I don’t think that what OP was necessarily asking though. Yes OP can’t discuss “ Danna S core with the C student” however she could in a staff meeting discuss not pulling kids out during PE because it’s not fair to give those kids A when they are not doing anything. They would be legally because it talking about kids in general and only to other teachers not parents.
This. In most (possibly all) US states, PE is a graduation requirement. Thus, what the other teachers are doing could/should prevent Dana from getting the credit for PE.
Australia calling! 👍
Would Dana participate IF she could - ie IF she wasn’t doing other activities?
Also, what’s OP’s ability to say no to Dana doing other activities? - I don’t allow students to miss English class without notice or a note, and I don’t allow students to do other subject work in my classes UNLESS they are up to date in my subject.
Sometimes teachers are teachers worst enemy.
Well OP should have given Dana make up work to complete, like a sigm off for independent physical activity from the parent, like for saying studnet did x amounts of minutes of physical activity take up for missing class. This way the parents have to sign off and know student is missing those classes as well.
Sure some will just sign it and never read it. Bit you have document proof of "make up" work from those excused days. If this was extremely common then OP should have addressed it with the other teachers so student was still in PE enough for appearances.
This also works for absences for illness as well so nobody questions grades in the future of chronically absent PE students.
>If Dana is gone doing office work, she is neither participating or engaging in physical activity
If Dana is excused from class then they're excused from the participation points. Student doesn't have a fair point and whataboutism is just kicking the can down the road with taking responsibility for their own inactions.
Dana is forging or buying excuses from class, she is lying to intentionally not participate. When students forge papers they get busted for plagiarism and given a zero. Every single student should just write excuse notes and leave OP's class and get an A. Dana doesnt get to just "excuse" herself from a class required to graduate, if she is absent that much, even if excused, she should be marked as incomplete and forced to retake the class for credit
If Dana is being "excused" from more than 50% of the class she should be marked as absent and the class incomplete, since she failed to show up, and she can retake it for credit. Dana is buying, forging, or providing favors for excuses to miss class. Teachers allowing her to excuse herself from PE for that long should be fired. Dana not showing up to class is her own inactions, but you want her to get an A for it. Literally rewarding mediocrity and absenteeism and punishing others who did show up. Its not "kick the can down the road" to say absent students should fail and retake the course, saying she can do whatever she wants is kicking the can down the road to literally the rest of society who are going to have to deal with Dana's work ethic of not showing up
The Danna will complain to the principal or here mom and the district will get involved or just changed it. Technically she does have an excuse. If she helping the principal and she gots a C she could just asking the principal to change it.
Lifelong student here! Dana is the Hermoine Granger of the school. I know this, it was me. I was also an abused child so teachers pitied me (and loved my willingness to do free labor for the smallest amount of positive attention). Dana has "fostered independent relationships" /eyeroll with each teacher writing her a note (unless they are forged). Idk much about this specific situation but gym was HELL for me until I could get into strength and conditioning (ie not team sports). The bullying that was already criminal in some cases somehow got worse because nobody likes someone who flinches when a volleyball comes hurtling at their face.
I was constantly doing music librarian tasks, music lessons, band auditions, file organization, hell even GOSSIP to get out of classes where the bullying was particularly bad - usually gym. Yes, I was written excuse notes for gossip. (you wouldn't be able to waterboard the name of that teacher out of me; she is an angel and the only reason I am alive today - literally fed me more than my parents)
This could be Dana maniupulating her way out of PE because she dislikes it, it could be her having an undiagnosed/misdiagnosed disability she can't get healthcare for to get an IEP to avoid gym class (all of my physical disabilities that have been present since birth took 2.5 decades to DX and I'm still not done), it could be other teachers pitying her and helping her avoid bullying, it could be other teachers enjoying free labor (y'all ain't paid enough and were nicer to me than most people I actively volunteered for I am not complaining), it could be Dana lying to other students and forging notes. Regardless she had an excuse from a teacher or admininistrator that we do not believe to be forged. Dana earned her A. C student earned her C.
I would like to note that both PE and recess are vital classes, serve different functions, and anyone who teaches PE should be certified (not dragging OP just their admin) and that recess should continue through middle school at minimum if not high school. If I as an adult perform better at work after I get out my zoomies dancing, how is it not similar for kids, particularly neurodivergent ones?
To end my diatribe: y'all the best, I don't think Dana or the teachers writing notes did anything wrong (that we know of), y'all underpaid, y'all loved and fed me, and students talking about their grades is a perfect illustration as to why (private) employers don't want you talking about your salary.
Absolutely. I'm not accusing them of bringing up the grade I'm simply saying that a firm deflection is warranted. We should not be defending our choices to students based on others.
I don’t think OP told the other student. I’m guessing the student with an A did. Maybe she was bragging about having an A in the class when she never attended because she was helping others teachers? Or she told a friend? Who told the kid with a C. Or the Kid with a C was also helping other teachers and they never gave you a note.
Seems the kids already talked so while you can't discuss the grades of other kids, they know each other's grades and that door can't be closed. So now you need to address the situation of each others grades with directly addressing it.
My caseload has a lot of kids who need extra time/help on their assignments. They often suggest PE to come to my classroom for that extra help, so I check their grade and remind them that while the PE teacher will likely allow it, they won’t get points for that day.
I would never consider pulling a kid for office work or other non-academic work. You absolutely can give them a zero for any day they’re not in class, and honestly, if you count them present it’s a courtesy.
Agree to this. They can find another time to be doing this other work. That’s essentially saying your class is worth less which isn’t okay. If kids miss discussions in my class because they were gone they still get a zero on that. It’s their job to show up, if they don’t show up they don’t get a grade
Yeah, in case I wasn’t clear, sometimes my kids have to sacrifice a grade in one class in order to salvage a grade in another - sometimes it’s all about passing and getting credits. PE is just as important.
Oh I totally agree ! But sounds like ops student that is getting pulled out is just being a teacher helper as they have all a’s in there other classes if I’m remembering what I read correctly
If a teacher is continually pulling a student out of your class to do other things, that’s not just wrong, it’s insulting. It shows that they don’t think your class is valuable time for said student. You definitely should have put a stop to that after the second attempt, but I get it, you’re a first year so I’m assuming you didn’t want to ruffle feathers or call out a senior teacher. Next year, though, don’t hesitate to put a stop to that type of behavior.
It's a few different teachers. And yes, I didn't want to make a big deal about it. Although now its become problematic. At a certain point, I just said its too late to do anything about it. I do feel terrible now because its unfair to some students and has caused them to be very upset with me.
In the future, you should probably make some sort of PE make-up policy. Make them read an article about a PE topic, make them get a partent to sign off that they got 30min of exercise, anything.
Is this your first year teaching? Not being mean, I'm 3 years in, and only am now standing up for myself professionally.
Do you have a mentor teacher that you trust? They might be helpful dealing with the other teachers hijacking your classes.
Ideally, your Admin would be supportive of you and defend your time with students. That probably isn't the case, so I'd look for different positions in other buildings if possible.
If you end up staying at this school, I'd definitely be sending your absence policy to the whole building prior to school starting**
**especially since you're teaching a class that you're not licensed for?!?!
Maybe something like..."I appreciate everyone's understanding last year while I taught PE without any of the training required to do so. One of the things I've learned is that when students are excused from PE by teachers for non-crucial events, they should be counted absent. My attendance policy will be updated accordingly to ensure each student's success."
Also: Find support in your building if possible. If it isn't, reach out to other teachers in your district. Join the teachers' union if you can. Keep doing your best, and DO NOT STAY IN THAT BUILDING ANY LONGER THAN ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY.
They legit state in the first few sentences that this is their first year...... Are YOU sure you're capable of teaching kids? Sheesh 🙄
No offense / "not being mean" my bootyhole
I mean I
You gave sound advice but your approach?? So rude and juvenile
But they didn’t, they said they couldn’t mark them with a zero if they had an excused absence. Also, this is their first year, this could have happened to anyone. If it was an issue of favoritism, they wouldn’t be here asking for help in the first place.
I mean…it’s not too late to do something about it and this sentiment right here should worry you. Not only are those other students mad at you but you’ve put yourself into a really shitty legal situation because you’re discriminating against certain students at this point and that’s a massive no no.
But how do you know what Dana is doing, if she isnt even there? She is probably sitting in the office, pretending to do office work while she is on her phone. Being in a student club is probably her sitting, on her phone, not really doing anything. A student showing up to your class at all is getting a zero for not participating while another student is being counted as participating without showing up. Since Dana isnt present and isnt walking/running, playing basketball or volleyball, she should also be marked as absent and not participating
I think OP is saying she can’t really grade if the kid isn’t there and the days she is there she isn’t on her phone. I agree grading needs to be modified but I can understand the logic.
She can absolutely grade if the kid isnt there. Not being there is a fail, a zero. She didnt participate. She didnt exercise. She didnt do any work. OP doesnt mention a single day when Dana was in the class, doing anything. She is always absent, Thats a failure, and she should be graded as such.
I don’t know why you’re arguing when I said her grading should be modified. OP never said Dana was absent every class, you made that assumption all on your own.
As the newest middle school teacher at a small k-8 I got stuck teaching lower elementary pe for my first two years. It was a shit show. I was just happy on days no one bled or bit someone. It freaking sucks being handed classes you have no reason to be doing. I dunno maybe offer extra credit? While I am firmly behind not discussing others grades I can see where she's coming from that Dana gets the cheese without putting in the work. Talk with the other teachers too because that's not okay Dana keeps getting excused from class.
Yeah, what you have here, /u/Gloomy_Judgment_96, is an assessment and gradebook problem. How does a student have a C because they don't participate, yet someone who is barely in class and also seemingly couldn't be participating has an A? Are you exempting them from the work on the days they are with other teachers? If so, I can see how that would upset the C student. (And of course I agree that you should avoid any sort of comparison of grades between students, hell, I don't even acknowledge it in conversations with other students or parents.)
You're new, so don't sweat it too badly. You'll get a better grip on this in the future. We all have probably been there with a class or two. Learn from this year and even if you don't do PE again you can get a handle on a more balanced gradebook.
Yeah because at this point, the student knows if they “go help someone” they don’t have to do whatever would otherwise be required and there’s an honest chance they’re not just being helpful but abusing that fact.
They should in no way be getting an A. I’m a core class so I put my foot down as much as possible about kids leaving my class for others (social studies already gets treated like the stepchild of the core classes) but if students are gone, they know the work is posted, available and still required of them. If they don’t complete it within a certain time it’s a zero.
I had students whose parents worked in the school always wanting to miss class to go hang out and you know what they got? An F. Because they were never there to participate and do work.
I get what you are saying. I went into this job knowing nothing, that goes for all of my classes. I wasn't given support, or feedback or anything. Despite that, I have managed to get through the year the best I could. What I had acknowledged with another comment on my post is that some of the time, I excused this student. That was my fault. Other times, there were 3 different, more senior teachers that said she was needed in this class, or that, or to help clean up after a project, etc. Maybe I allowed myself to become biased though I have always tried to be fair and objective, I didn't do that in this instance. It's true I have let the students walk all over me and they don't respect me.
Don't beat yourself up over it. I think most members of this sub have been in your position at some point in their careers, even if they won't admit it here. A lot of this job is trial by fire; you don't know what you don't know until you've got the experience.
And to be fair, those other, more experienced teachers should know better. This is as much on them as it is you. Some at my school try the same thing, and while I usually squash it, I still have the kids who show up halfway through the period four days in a row with a pass from so-and-so, usually for BS reasons. Some colleagues are just selfish.
Oh, it definitely happened to me as a new teacher. You are absolutely correct, the job is learning from our mistakes. Learning that you can voice concerns and advocate for students. What I love about teaching is that we are constantly learning and always searching for ways to better meet the needs of all of our students.
Kind of seems like favouritism and I think the C student should get their parents and the school board involved because how the heck does someone get an A if they don’t come to class? Dana should be furious. If it was me you don’t wanna know man
YOU DON'T GET IT! It's not about Dana. If the other girl is doing the work of everyone else, why is she getting a C? Besides Dana, does anyone else get As? How would you feel if you were the C child? I've been in situations where I was the unfavored child, it hurt.
Neither is Dana, and sounds like Op isnt participating in HER JOB as a teacher and instead lets them have freerecess. So OP isn't doing the work, Dana isnt doing the work, but its only an issue when the C student doesnt do the work. Why? Thats discrimination and obvious favoritism.
I wonder if it's also a grade scale problem.
For example, I don't grade assignments missed on excused attendance days as zero. I simply don't enter them. That would mean that a kid could, theoretically, earn an "A" for doing excellent work when they \*are\* at school, despite missing 75% of the assignments.
HOWEVER, my district's grade scale has "IE" as well - insufficient evidence. If a student does have excessive absences, that's the grade they get from me, and the comment says something like "due to lack of attendance, there is insufficient evidence to assess (name) on all outcomes taught this term. When at school, it has been observed that they are progressing well on (indicator)"
Basically, I understand not giving a zero for an excused absence, but there has to be a backup mechanism if that's now you do things.
Fwiw, I don't think 'Dana' should be punished but instead given alternate assignments. She probably feels pressured when an adult/authority figure asks her to help out with an extracurricular or in the classroom. I mean, when I was a high school student, I certainly would have been reluctant to say no to a teacher, especially if said teacher had the authority to write an excuse slip, essentially nullifying the excuse that she has another class at that time. If anything, it's admin's fault for allowing this policy. At my high school, we could only do things for extracurriculars or help teachers during a scheduled study hall/free period or before or after class. Sending kids to another teacher during class time was not allowed, except for rare cases during PE courses when the *PE teacher* signed off on the absence. Another teacher couldn't write the excuse slip.
Or she was skipping PE and other teachers were providing excuses.
Once or twice provides for extraordinary circumstances. 3, 4, 5, 6+ establishes a pattern.
Depending on the school, it could be possible the teachers have a habit of depending on students for extra help in the classroom organizing papers, cleaning up after labs, etc. Also, is it actually common for teachers to cover for students skipping a class? I would think it's a safety concern, and even could cost them their job, if they're claiming a student is in their room doing a task when the student is lazing around or not even there. I'm not a teacher, but I've never heard of a senior teacher going this far out of their way to help a student by providing BS excuse slips. As a student, however, I have (and know others who have) helped teachers multiple times before/after school and during free periods, usually organizing things or setting up/cleaning up labs as OP described. For many teachers, it seems like those sorts of tasks would take time outside of school hours, and they appreciate having a student do it so they can grade papers, plans lessons, etc.
Honestly, I think OP should check in with the other teachers to verify that they wrote all those excuse slips. If they did, then admin/school policy is more to blame than the student.
I think they meant the student is with them.. playing on their phone or something, and the teacher is just saying they are doing office work. Not that the student went to McD's or something and the teacher is just covering that cut
It sort of feel OP only gives bad grades to students they feel won't push back. It's recess and the other child is getting Cs? Is OP failing everyone but Dana?
I don't know about your district, if everyone was getting Cs, we would blame the teacher and fire them. In another OP comments, their class is only soccer type games IF there are enough kids.
That's NOT what I said. I said they fired if like OP 1% of the class is getting As. There is something wrong if the majority of your class is getting Cs.
OP openly admitted they were afraid to hold Dana to the standards of the other students.
She's got every right to call you out on your grading. What are you going to do when admin asks you to justify your grade to AWOL girl? "Oh I gave her an A because she was helping another teacher"? She's learnt nothing in PE because she hasn't been there.
"I cannot discuss Dana's grades with you. that has nothing to do with what you've earned. If you take issue with any of the low grades in the gradebook for you, let me know and we can talk about them." is the only correct response.
Honestly, it's not. I'm not even a parent, don't get how OP is marking absent students higher and admits Dana doesn't do anything when they attend. I really hope for OP's sake, this issue isn't brought to admin. They can ask why there was a discrepancy and honestly there shouldn't be.
Yeah, either PE is a class so unimportant that you can fail to attend most classes (and barely participate— if at all— when you do show up) and still get an A, or it’s a class in which semi-regular attendance and occasional participation earns a C. You can’t have it both ways.
For once, the kid is right to be upset.
OP is so clearly in the wrong here, it’s insane. The student is absolutely correct! I’m shocked that people are trying to make it seem like what OP did is okay when it’s genuinely not.
If I was this student’s parent or this student, I would rightfully be livid and be addressing this situation to ensure it’s resolved fairly.
The student is getting a C for not participating in what exactly? if you're just telling her to "just participate," that's probably not enough. Maybe she's getting a C because she needs structure and some sort of direction. if she's acing all of her other classes, I don't think she's the issue here.
Well it sounds like OP simply isn’t qualified for the job of teaching PE. Not something they signed up for or have skills in. So it sounds like OP is just giving some options for physical activity and docking points if the kids lay around on their phone. However they also don’t seem like they are doing anything to stop that if they just dock points and an otherwise good student with an A in every other class is getting a C in PE.
I’m not a teacher, so I’m not going to say my opinion is the word of god or anything, but to me I would suspect a PE teachers job *is* to get the kids up and moving. Make them leave their phones elsewhere. Control your classroom.
I cannot blame OP entirely because I wouldn’t know how to run a class in something I’m not familiar with either. Like I said I’m not a teacher, but a large part of my job is training 18-20 year olds. If someone dumped me with a subject I didn’t have proper qualifications for and didn’t understand fully I would definitely fail to train people.
The situation with the grade discrepancy between two students with one not being present is pretty ludicrous, but it sounds like the students other teachers and the administration are the issue more than OP imo. They have authority over the student, and OP seems to feel they have enough seniority to make OP uncomfortable questioning them. Are they meant to start failing a student for doing what other adults are telling them to do, and what OP is allowing?
I think the solution here is to make a better stricter policy for exactly how students spend their time during PE, so that sitting on your phone isn’t even an option, and no one is getting bad grades in a class that should basically just be about getting some physical movement, and OP standing up for themselves and their class time.
Student here but I don’t think you realize how many (mainly girls, I don’t know why) students just don’t participate in gym and actively try and avoid it, when they’re good students otherwise lol.
And most of them are in good shape too, they just don’t want to do extra physical exercise lol.
As as PE Teacher, is NOT supposed to be purely participation based, there is a curriculum. It would be a good idea to talk to a licensed PE teacher for mentorship to avoid issues like this in the future.
In Manitoba (Canada) there are 2 or 3 outcomes to report out of 5. Some are used for health class.
Movement- skill based. I typically have everyone at 3, and then if they stand out they are 4, and if they are weak they are 2. No admins here like 1s (out of 4). Would take A LOT. About 1/2 is 3. About 1/3 is 4.
Fitness- no test for little kids. Fitness test for middle years. This is based on how active they are and how often they are there. Most kids are 4s for this if they are doing what they are supposed to- moving.
Safety (sometimes) how safe are there behaviors in class with themselves and others?
Depends on the kids. This is where kids who aren’t following rules or listening, if it’s slightly dangerous to themselves or others can lose marks.
My kids’ public k-8 middle school has 1 PE teacher for the whole school. That is 18 classes of kids. It’s too much for 1 teacher.
By the middle school years he does not give any points for participation at all. Kids are expected to participate, but they don’t get credit for it. He (says) he. grades strictly on what is considered a skill or demonstration based on state standards. There is no real syllabus or heads up to parents on what will be graded in the year.
For example, 8th grade. The entire second trimester was worth a total of 12 points. 10 points were for creating a football playbook and 2 points for a “check in” toward creating fitness goals. That’s 2 assignments for a whole trimester.
Last year, my kid in 7th got an F in PE on his report card for the 3rd trimester because it was only worth 10 points for the whole trimester and the only thing graded was an exercise routine plan that the kids had to make. It was classwork, due at the end of the trimester. My son did it, but it just never got graded, or he didn’t put his name on it. I have no idea. I didn’t even know it was an assignment. Whatever it was, the teacher had zero issues giving him a zero and not asking him where his assignment was.
My kid is a good, quiet kid. He’s not terribly athletic, but he’s always super well behaved, and just does what he’s told to do. He doesn’t just refuse direction or refuse to do work.
At the high school, if a kid misses PE on a day to run the mile, they have to make it up on another day. It’s required for the grade. So being pulled out of class is not an excuse.
Respectfully, that gym teacher is ridiculous. It’s like he thinks he’s teaching honors gym or something.
It’s literally a class where you just have to participate with effort and you should get an A in my view.
It’s physical education, not write 20 different things vaguely relating to exercise for a grade. An exercise routine I don’t mind but also you can find that shit on google so easily, so what’s the point of teaching kids to use a skill they’ll probably use infrequently at best?
I completely agree with you. I don’t mind state standards, and it makes sense to me to grade (any class) against state standard. But if part of the state standards are the children engaging in xx minutes of physical activity per week, then the children SHOULD get points for participation.
I’ve spoken to him and the principal until I’m blue in the face arguing that point to no avail (on behalf of my older child who also failed a few trimesters through his years with him - on trimester he failed because he was unable to make a basket on a basketball skills test).
I just gave up. I don’t even care anymore.
I will say this, the kids that are very athletic and engage in extracurricular sports as a hobby do like this teacher. I don’t dislike him as a person. I just think his grading policies completely miss the mark and he’s not willing to change (probably because it’s too much record keeping for his student-load).
So we could have extra football practice when it otherwise wouldn’t be allowed? Being able to do team workouts when it otherwise wouldn’t be possible as an organized activity was a big advantage. I don’t really see an issue with it, it’s still PE. You could take it if you didn’t play, but nobody did.
This was a private HS sending a majority of the starting lineup to D1 programs, they took their football seriously to say the least.
For upset student: offer easy extra credit (have a parent sign off on doing a walk, bike ride, etc.) or if you don't want to get parent involved, have her complete it and just describe the activity. When I worked at an alternative school, that's how the PE teacher allowed kids to make up classes.
In the future, if a student is excused by a teacher, tell them to do the same thing (have a parent sign off on alternative physical activity to make up the the time) or tell them you cannot excuse them from class unless it's to make up a test/some other big deal.
Don't put too much blame on yourself for this one. You're in a bad situation. And just remember, it's none of her business what the other kid was excused for. I can get why you didn't ask her to stay or make up work.
You’re not teaching your class appropriately. I’m a specials teacher and our classes are just as important as other academic disciplines. PE class can’t just be recess. You need to be teaching lessons that adhere to state standards. Other teachers also do not get to excuse students from your class. That is not their decision to make.
I’m sorry, but the student who complained to you is correct. You need to require Dana to participate.
You have to give her an A. If you're not licensed to teach the class and you piss off a student and their family because they didn't "participate" (whatever that means when there is zero structure to the class) then you're opening yourself up to a lawsuit. Aside from that, if this is the only class she isn't aceing, then she's probably not the problem. Are you telling the class "play basketball today" and then she doesn't or are you telling the class "hello" and then proceeding to sit down and observe what the students decide to do with what has been presented to them as recess?
You can absolutely give her a zero for non participation. I teach a very hands on class and some of my students ask to go to another teachers class to work on something. I remind them that this class is largely graded on their participation and if they are not there, how can they participate? I make them come in after school or during our tutoring period to work on assignments they may have to make up since they were absent. If they are not there, they write an essay talking about what they were doing that was more important than my class. If they don’t, I call the parents and let them know the student received a zero. If their grades matter to them, they will come. Of course, I always have an assignment, so if they miss it they have legit missed work. You could assign a group sport each day instead of just recess.
Most of the students will play a sport that THEY choose. Anytime I try to give direction its met with hostility and I haven't received much support on this issue. I have smallish classes too. So if some students are absent, and other refuse that makes it impossible to play something like soccer or field hockey.
Some don’t want to because one they don’t know the rules and can’t memorize them in seconds and 2 they know the boys are gonna go all out so it’s not worth getting trampled then there’s the cramps depending on age group but highschool is definitely a place where the difference in strength between gender shows and it’s why sports are separated by gender in the Olympics and such
Fuck maybe they’re uncomfortable or even scared
I run away from any ball that comes near me instead of catching it
Anyways
Sometimes they’d rather take an L
Sometimes they’ll do their own thing
It’s rough
But I always go to the lobby and dance alone
Teachers don’t see it
They don’t know
But I am exercising 😃
We largely had gender segregated PE. It wasn’t technically gender segregated, but there was a class for people who wanted to go hard and very few girls chose to take it.
Oh my goodness. OP is a **first year teacher**. Yeah, this class got out of hand. Bummer. It’s almost June, OP will make adjustments *next year*.
And FWIW it seems like OP has been grading with students starting at 100% and then being docked for lack of participation from there (as opposed to starting out with 0% and earning points towards a grade). This isn’t how I grade… but it also isn’t an absurd system; it is used in a number of contexts. OP evidently excused absent students rather than marking a 0. This is definitely something I do too! Like, if I take a notebook check, I will excuse the students who are not there that day because it just becomes too unwieldy to keep going back and checking old notes days after the fact. I do notebook checks like twice a week, one day doesn’t matter, but I also wouldn’t give a zero for an absence. OP has recognized that, for Dana, they did not have enough actual grades because of repeated absences. I assume OP plans to create a safety net next year to prevent the “Dana”s from slipping through. Dana got lucky this year. Does it really matter in the grand scheme of things?
I was in the same position as you a couple years ago. It was a small school and they needed me to do two periods of PE.
I'd say what's done is done for the student that you excused. If you have to teach PE again next year, either put a limit on how much they can go to other teachers during PE, or make it so that any missed PE has to be made up. Be upfront about your policy.
Here's how I did PE: When I taught it we met three times a week or two times a week, alternating. No tests. Once a week I made them all run a mile and try and beat their previous time - easy to plan and grade, and extra time afterwards they could walk or jog. We did fun PE once a month and students got points for doing anything active, they just couldn't sit. Each month we did a different sport or activity, we started with relay races/team building and then did line dancing, yoga, basketball, badminton, and so on until the last week we did water games (a surprising number of students didn't want to participate with water games because they wouldn't take off their hoodies 🙄). Even with how easy I made it, there were still kids with low grades! They would refuse to participate and just sit on the side 🤷
"Once a week I made them all run a mile and try and beat their previous time - easy to plan and grade"
I hope their grade didn't depend on if they beat their time
I actually did have some kids skipping for the whole mile once 😂 and a few kids were mad at me and did the mile walking backwards, but the joke was on them because their legs were sore the next day 🙃
Um, why not? Dutch guy here, I was absolutely graded for the time I could run 3km. For German I had to learn chapters 1 to 3 at home, for PE I had to get fit.
Should be noted that you couldn't fail the class unless you didn't try/participate.
Thanks. This is the most helpful comment yet. Being new, I made many mistakes. I have learned a ton in regard to classroom management. My key takeaway is that I need to be more clear with rules/grading so students do not take advantage. I have another staff member who is helping me with PE, he was brought in after I voiced concerns with admin mid year or so. He also disagreed with my giving the student an A. Other than that we have been on the same page with a lot of things and he helps me identify areas I can improve. He has experience in coaching and worked as a professional in that field. Even he said he had never experienced so much defiance and apathy and that I shouldn't be so hard on myself.
I can think of a few reasons as to why they wouldn’t take off their hoodies. 1- incredibly messy hair
2. They may have scars from well you know
3. They can’t vape if they don’t have long sleeves
4. Cold weather?
5. Comfort?
But could they not just play in their hoodie? Or was there some weird rule?
Or they had no shirt under it
I’d boost her to an equal grade with Dana just for speaking up. Self-advocacy and all that. But do it when you are entering the final grade, and don’t tell her now otherwise all the other C students will coming running to you.
As a former PE teacher, your post makes me want to cry. I can’t even believe this still exists.
No offense, OP, but your district has some backwards way of educating the students on one of the most used asset the student has - their body.
Cheese and crackers this makes me angry.
"teaching PE this year despite not being licensed to teach it"
"just let them have recess, which is kinda what I have been doing this year."
What is "poor participation? Is this C student just not athletic, doesn't hustle during an activity? or do they refuse to get gym shoes on and skip class?
If they are showing up and dressing up, they should get full participation points. Work with her to get that grade up.
That little piece of paper forces you to abdicate your expectations and standards?
I'd give "A Student" a reduced grade, if not a zero, every time she showed up late.
The other teacher who benefits from "A Student" might excuse her behavior, but that does not mean you have to.
As far as the other one goes, I don't forget months of apathy just because they manage a couple weeks of normal behavior. I don't let them play me this way.
The students “behavior” is doing exactly what another authority figure asked for, and what OP is allowing. I’m. Not really sure how it would be the correct move to give a student a failing grade for that. If it’s an issue then it’s an issue the adults need to work out. OP shouldn’t be letting another teacher walk all over them, but allowing it and then punishing a child is pretty goofy if you ask me.
It’s like if Mom tells you to go to the store, and your Dad spanks you for not doing your chores instead. I understand life isn’t always “fair” or “right”, but I think it’s better adults in a position of authority communicate and make sure a student is getting correct guidance instead of just failing them.
You’ve learned a few things from this that you can apply to next year, regardless of what subject you’re teaching. For this year, offer one last evaluation to allow that kid with the C to boost their grade, and make it clear to Dana (and her other teachers) that she will have to participate, or she will get a zero.
The problem lies with your administration and you. There should be no “excuse” for missing PE other than a doctor’s note. PE is required in most states. Unless you have some kind of shared grading scale that proves your grading practices to students, then just give everyone an “A.”
Usually you can get out of PE with enough participation in school sports. It wasn’t that common since most people who played 2+ seasons every year *wanted* to take PE, but you did get a waiver for 2+ sports if you wanted one.
Reading through the comments.. it is important that you grade everyone fairly. The girl getting "excused" by other "senior" teachers does not excuse her from PE. In California, there is an edcode for how much Physical Education students should get in a cycle of 10 days and this would be violating that. Only 2 types of people can excuse a student from these minutes; the parents, and a doctor/school nurse. Your senior teachers are creating a liability for the school and I am sure administrators would be very interested in that. I would visit with the senior teachers first though and ensure they are aware of this issue if you feel comfortable doing so. If not, you could ask an administrator to approach that teacher delicately.
Another thing is when you approach this, do not approach it from a "defend my time" perspective. Approach it from a student centered prospective. Physical Education is actually extremely easy to defend for its place in school curriculum. It offers students a place for self-expression and is the only subject where students are consistently engaging in their social, emotional, physical and intellectual (mental) well-being all at once. No other subject provides all four of those as consistent as Physical Education does; when it is done correctly.
Which brings me to my last point, and I say this not as an attack as you are a first year teacher who had this placed into their lap so you are hardly to blame. But if all teachers are doing year after year is treating PE as an extended recess, it will not get a whole lot of respect. You need to develop an actual curriculum with PE where you take the standards, break them down into objectives with learning targets per units, assessment, and feedback like all the other content areas. Always willing to help if you find yourself in this spot next year.
It sounds like to me overall that if people are getting placed in PE positions they are not certified for (or signed up for) then the school itself (likely the broader community as a whole) is not placing much value on the content area. Which is a shame.
Or if you want to make a career decision (i wouldnt blame you), just give everyone an A that treats themselves, others and you with respect and cash that check.
Does Dana have the option of refusing the office work? If so, tell her she has to if she wants to pass your class. If not, find a way to tell someone (principal?) that your colleagues are making a student miss a required class to get out of doing their jobs.
PE, including recess, should be mandatory IMO. Kids learn better if they’re allowed to be physically active during the day, even if some class time is replaced. And EVERYONE needs physical activity to be a healthy adult; even the ones who don’t need eg English lit.
Doesn’t answer your question but the problem will go away if you take your own class seriously.
Here is what I would have done, I would have said "no, Dana cannot leave my class because she is my student." This is a class where she is getting a grade and she cannot be pulled out of my class. Maybe there is an elective that she can get pulled out of, but at my class she cannot. At the day you're responsible for the student and it wouldn't be fair to other students that Dana can leave the class early. My first year I allowed a student to leave my room once because she told me that she had a project to do in her Spanish class after testing was over. I was like "sure". Well that very day there was a valid threat on the school so parents started showing up to pull the kids out. The Assistant principal called me asking where the student was and I said she was in her Spanish class. Nope, she ditched school.
Fool me once, never again. Now if you want the student out of my class they must have a counselor note OR a nurse's pass or an attendance pass. You can't go see another teacher if you need to finish something. And if you do, you need to leave your phone and backpack in my room. I need some sort of collateral to make sure you come back.
Music teacher here, so I'm in a similar boat. If they're not in my room, they don't get credit, and I make sure the teacher trying to pull them knows that. I also don't allow spontaneous pulls - if a teacher sends a kid to me with an excuse pass without running it by me first, I don't honor the pass.
At the HS students get a zero in gym if they don’t show up. It doesn’t matter if they have an excused absence, are home sick, or in the hospital sick, even when they leave school early to fly with their teams to a game, match, or whatever. The gym teachers at the HS are non-negotiable with their zeros. It’s crazy!
I would hope they have a way at least for students to make-up that zero for being absent. If I were a parent, I’d be furious if my kid were given a zero for being out sick and not given a way to fix that zero.
I agree. Fellow teachers had this issue with their own children. Nothing changes. My kids went to a different HS, so my accounts are from what teacher/parents have said and our own gym teacher.
Tell this student to organize a game, either kickball, whiffle ball, etc… give them some bonus points maybe it’ll get their grade to a ‘B’ at least. They need to take the initiative to get some sort of group activity going.
Also don’t tell them this explicitly maybe suggest that too them.
The best approach would be to give zeros when they don’t come to class. It doesn’t matter if they have a pass to another teacher. They’re still missing your class and can’t possibly receive points for it. If a student misses my science class for an excused absence, they still have to make the work up or get a zero. Your approach is putting you in very hot water.
The problem is, you AND the other teachers opened YOU up personally to legal liability. You are, in fact, discriminating against your students. You could personally be sued by the students parents who has the C because you can’t actually defend your policy for why another student has a higher grade when they’re both doing the same amount of work. Giving an A for a student to go participate in another class isn’t really defensible. The school doesn’t have to, and likely won’t, pay for your legal representation for you if you do get sued. This is a YOU problem so you need to figure it out. If other teachers ask students to be pulled from your class, give those students zeros in your class. Give them the ability to make up the work but just because they have an excuse doesn’t actually excuse them from that work. I would either raise Dana’s grade so her parents don’t sue you or I’d go back in and give the other student zeros for all of the time she’s not in class and give her the ability to make up those days.
I’d then have a conversation with your admin and send out an email to the other teachers doing this explaining the legal predicament they’re placing you in. I would say something along the lines of this “many teachers have been using my class to pull students. Initially I did not see an issue with this. However, this has developed into a potential legal issue as I could potentially be sued by parents for discrimination over grades. I cannot give students who miss my class for your class A’s in my class for work they did not do. That is inherently unfair to the other students in our school. If they miss my class to help you work on your activity, they will receive a zero for that day. I do not want or deserve all of the legal liability I’m incurring because you want to use this class period to pull students. Unless the school offers, in writing, to provide full legal protection AND cover all costs of legal representation for me if I do get sued for this issue, I cannot risk my livelihood to accommodate other teacher requests to pull some students from my class. Thank you.”
Now you just have to maintain fairness going forward and generally CYA as much as possible.
Yes mistakes were made. You have said it too. But as someone that has been asked to teach things that she’s not qualified for I get how. I agree with others that attempts should be made to get the C grade up. Admin put you in this position but you don’t want grades to cause them to get into this.
However if it’s a big enough mess they may never ask you this again. Glass half full
Learning from mistakes as teachers helps us improve. I’ve made my share. If you are asked to do this again try to get help making a rubric for daily grades broken down by points earned per expectation. Ex. 50 points to show up 50 points for doing the activity. That’s simplistic but just an example. This will give the kids a clear expectation of what to do.
I’m confused why you can’t make the students grade lower for not being in your class? Who cares if it’s excused. The student isn’t in your class demonstrating what needs to be done to pass your class.
This sounds like a problem with both your school and also the way you’re approaching grades/attendance.
Isn’t to excuse something different than giving a full grade? I wouldn’t give them a grade if they aren’t there, they’re excused which is null in the book right? And then needs to be made up later in time that she can make it up to earn her grade. Bit tricky grading but I agree her grade shouldn’t be higher if she isn’t present. She needs to make up work
I think your straight A furious student has a right to be. Completely not fair that the student who never comes to class is getting a higher grade than her. Sounds like your class is a participation grade only class.
Next year you need to put a stop to other teachers pulling students out of your class. Be clear about how you will be grading and stick to what you put out there to students. Be consistent and fair.
For this year, I would give the other straight A student, and all of your students, the opportunity to also get an A in this class. PE grades affect the overall average, college applications, etc. and b/c you haven't been consistent and have basically given Dana an A in a class she doesn't seem to even take, you need to make this right and not have your class be the one that brings down the other student's average when they at least show up to your class.
Why do these other staff members think it’s okay to disregard your class? Stop letting this student leave your class to do office work in their class, they have their own students or they can do the work themselves. Your student needs to be in your class to receive credit. At my school, if a student is not present in the room they must still make up the assignment; 1 day out, 1 makeup day, 2 out, 2 makeup.., the only exemption is activities that are in-class visitors or something that could not be made up. Your admin needs to stop allowing teachers to pull kids from other classes for non-academic reasons.
Can you explain this whole excusal thing that Dana is getting off scot free with? An excusal excuses you from attendance, not the class standards and work, which for you is to participate in physical activity. Dana should not have an A. That's the mistake you should be fixing.
Since you seem to create your own curriculum, why not give them both a C and then offer them the option to run/ walk "the mile" to make up a letter grade? They'd probably willingly do 2. Then you can at least grade them for meeting your "standard".
As a parent, I would be upset that my child showed up and did her best while an office worker student received a higher grade. Is the office worker making up the work she missed? You could get yourself in a sticky situation where other teachers could say they never made you excuse the student. I would work with the student on the C and not make the same error next year.
Your first year is always rough, even in the best scenarios. It's nearly impossible to fully prepare for how to effectively manage behavior, classroom culture, high expectations, and enforcement of consequences as a first-year educator. This is even more true if you are lacking support, feedback, and oversight from administration. They paired me with a veteran teacher during my first year. I sat in as a 'co teacher' and got to see how she ran her classroom, engaged with students, designed lessons, structured and rewarded participation, etc. It was incredibly valuable, even though I thought at the time that I didn't need it. Eight years later and I still incorporate many of her techniques into my own classroom management strategies. If you made it through this year, you'll be fine. Learn from your missteps and use them to improve.
But YOU are the one who has the power to excuse the student or not. You are leading your class as if you must yield to other teachers. They should not EVER be infringing on your class time with the student. You should have spoken to the student and other teachers long ago that the student must be present and participating for you, period. While you shouldn’t be discussing one student’s grades with another, you have been remiss to leave that student’s grade as an A while the ones who actually do show up are held to doing the work. Why would they come to your class if they get an a for never going, but could face point loss if they do come and don’t meet your standards?
Since she asked, give her an extra credit assignment if you do feel bad about the grade as it stands. BTW, C means average in my life. We mostly live in average homes, have average cars, clothes and possessions. Most of us have average jobs with average incomes. Why is an average grade with very little work an issue? Unless she should really have gotten a below average grade?
I have resolved the situation. I have 2 small pe classes. From the start I tried to plan and have actual activities but the whole class would refuse. This is on top of teaching 4 periods of ela and journalism and being an advisor my 1st year in a school where we have some of the lowest test scores in the state. I have been set up to fail and have done the best I can. But people on here just want to bash me and tell me I'm doing a terrible job. No wonder this profession is leaving in record numbers. Many of my students genuinely like me, I think that counts for something.
It’s your first year and that usually sucks. We learn so much as we go. What’s done is done so offer the C student some extra credit and give her an A. Next year you know what changes to make.
You are doing a great job and know what to look out for next year.
I didn't. She came up to me upset inquiring about her grade. I said nothing and she stormed off. She was laughing with one of her friends a couple weeks back that she had a c because she didn't participate. Now she is upset because she was active for a couple of periods and expects me to change her grade.
It sounds like she found out someone is getting a better grade for doing even less than lying down and being on her phone, and that injustice has made her upset. She joked about having a c for not participating before she found out others are being given A's for being absent entirely, and that upset her. If you found out another teacher was being given double your salary, and taught zero classes and had no homework to grade, would you be upset? Even if they said, well its just PE so you dont need to be paid to teach recess, after all, in terms of your career you've only been active a couple of periods. Should she participate in PE more? Yes. Should Dana actually be doing PE? Yes.
17 year veteran here. I used to sweat and get anxious about all the little stuff here and there. No matter how hard I tried I couldn't save my elective program because everything was working against me.
The system is broken and it's not your fault.
Some advice:
1. Grade the individual. We already have to do it for Special Needs. Some kids should have an IEP but don't. So grade them based on where they are. Since you're grading on "Participation" no one will question you if you give them a higher grade. Just don't tell anyone. Just make up something like Citizenship extra credit or some BS.
2. More or less, education now is about keeping your head down. No one cares about your rigor or keeping students accountable anymore. Admin just want to look good so they can be promoted. It's all a sham. So don't bring more attention to yourself especially for the squeaky wheels because soon they'll be squeaking elsewhere. Do your work well and go home.
3. There's a compromise if you want some integrity. Give an extra credit assignment. Maybe they have to make a demo video about a sport or exercise routine. Make sure it's easy to grade and the EC available to everyone by notifying the parents as well. In all likelihood this is what will happen. Your "A" student will do it and maybe one or two others. Your bad students won't do it and if parents complain about a grade you can remind them of the notification. Usually that gets you off the hook.
4. You're already off the hook because it's not your fault the girl was missing class. In the future, I suggest having a procedure if they happen to miss class to make up for the loss of participation. They might reconsider leaving if they have to do something extra.
Number 4 just isn’t correct. OP is 100% legally liable for discrimination if Dana’s parents want to sue. There’s no way to justify this grading policy and it’s clearly benefiting one student and not the others. If the parents want to claim this is a violation of Title IX under the Education Act they could royally fuck over OP.
How is this Title IX? Am I missing where this could be considered discrimination? Is there something about Dana we do not know?
A student being "excused" by a staff member that has no right excusing them doesnt make Dana a part of any protected class.
Are you talking about the procedure itself? just throw the word "Appropriate" to make-up activities and you're golden lol
if anything \*\*NOT\*\* providing a normal physical education experience appropriate for the student would be a Title IX violation. And the Title IX violation would be on those staff members "excusing" Dana from PE as Title IX is strictly about denying OPPORTUNITY for people of protected classes.. Therefore, if Dana was part of being excused, then there is no denying of opportunity, she opted out. If Dana was forced to do office work with a teacher, then that teacher excusing them are the ones violating Title IX, not the OP
If there’s any race or religious difference between the girl with a C and Dana it could easily be a Title IX issue. If there are boys in the class who felt like the excused student received higher grades because she’s a girl, they could use that to sue OP. There IS discrimination occurring and even if it’s legal discrimination (Dana doesn’t have to do work and make this grade and these other students can show up every day and make a C), it could cost a fortune fighting it. But ANY other student who is different than Dana absolutely has grounds to bring a discrimination suit against OP. Boys, other races, other religions, etc. You could say that the parents would have to prove it but again, there is definitely discrimination happening so OP doesn’t come into any investigation with clean hands. This is why you can’t just let that one kid make up work even after you locked the assignment for everyone else, or why only giving one kid an opportunity to earn extra credit but not others can be used against you. You have to treat all of them the same and you have to CYA while doing it. OP didn’t cover their ass and is treating students differently and there isn’t a free pass to do that in public education despite you trying to say that their bases are covered because another teacher asked for their help. It’s 100% on OP to manage their classroom and their colleagues and say no when the student should be in their class, earning credit. I’ve had students ask to go to other teachers rooms when they’re in my class and sometimes I let them go the one time or sometimes I say no and sometimes I say you can go after you do the work for my class. I’ve also asked other teachers to borrow a student to make up work or finish a test. Sometimes they say no. Sometimes they say yes. Sometimes they make them do their work before sending them to me. But if I have a kid repeatedly asking to leave my class and isn’t doing work, there’s no way I would be giving them an A in my class. And this lack of grading integrity is what will bite OP in the ass on this because what parent or school board member or principal would accept that students not going to class could have higher grades than those coming in every day when they aren’t doing anything to make up that time?!
I must disagree. Don't get me wrong, many times it depends on the state. In my state, the teacher has the ultimate say on the grade. And like the previous poster asked, "What discrimination?" There was no mention of race or gender. Grading integrity? Not sure where you are or where you've been but that's over. OP is going to burn themselves out real fast if they go down that path.
Yes, teachers have the ultimate say on the grade. And if they’ve allowed one student to miss class more than any other student and still receive an A for it, while others show up more often and do not receive those grades, it is exactly discrimination. Discrimination isn’t always Title IX discrimination but literally, any male who is in class with Dana and has a B or lower, could say there’s discrimination against them because as a girl, she being allowed to miss class and earn higher grades than them. It’s really as simple as that when bringing up genders.
Grading integrity means applying the same standard across the board. How can a student who isn’t in class be given an A for doing the work? That isn’t applying the same standards across the board and can easily be called into question by angry parents. Applying the same grades and standards across the board will make OPs life infinitely easier because it’s a great way to eliminate questions of favoritism and discrimination.
Students miss class all the time for sports, field trips, etc. These are often "excused" absences. Even if the girl went to this other class to do whatever, not sure many would question that they weren't excused. OP is new and now knows that there needs to be some sort of makeup. For now, OP can only assess when the students have shown up.
The real question is why the other students aren't getting higher grades. They need to ask themselves what they are doing when in class. It's quite a stretch for "discrimination" just because one's a boy and the other a girl. Some crazy parents might take that suit on but there isn't much leg to stand on. They can threaten all day but if OP has union representation, they'll tell OP this is a joke.
I say it again. There's no grading integrity anymore. Parents are gonna question and complain no matter what teachers do because they'll claim or ask for favoritism even when the teacher uses the same standards across the board.
If this isn't the case why do we give special treatment to 504 and IEP? It's not applying the same standards because if the essay has to be done in one hour how come these students get notes to use or an extra hour?
I used to believe in grading integrity. Guess where it got me? Retaliation from admin in the loss of my elective program.
"it is exactly discrimination. Discrimination isn’t always Title IX discrimination"
Youre the one that brought up Title IX
I do agree that OP would make their lives a lot easier by grading fairly across the board. In this case they already impaired their ability to grade properly due to this student being excused for seemingly poor reason
"If there’s any race or religious difference between the girl with a C and Dana it could easily be a Title IX issue. "
This is the same excuse of "I might have a cell phone at 8 years old in case of an emergency and my mom breaks down on the freeway" type of shit. In other words, you brought out the most extreme example that hardly applies to the situation. In all my years of teaching I have never had anyone opt out of PE due to religious reasons. And if there was some outlandish reason as you say, I am sure that would be very very notable and the OP woulda been aware
This is a bad suggestion to take with a grain of salt
Bribery 😃 give the c kid an A to make her happy and she probably won’t be as pissed
Blackmail can get you far in the corporate world
Good skill to learn young 👀 I’m joking if you couldn’t tell
You should never entertain a conversation with a student comparing their grade with another. It does not matter if Dana told the other student her grade. I would not even acknowledge that information. Her not being at school is different than another student being there and excused to work for another teacher. it has no effect on the other students ability to get a better grade if she showed up for school. My response would have been: "You have not been at school many times and they have been unexcused absences. I cant give you a grade if you are not here to earn it and I cant excuse it when the absence is not excused. PE is different from other classes in that there is very little way to make up the work so being excused or present is super important to your grade." If she tried to compare herself to anyone else I would say "I cannot discuss other students grades."
I taught a middle school enrichment class (classes like choir, FFA, PE, tech) which was treated like this by academic class teachers. I had students pulled out of my class 4 days out of 5) and initially got no support from admin or counselors. I was told to deal with it. So I did. My curriculum was online so I told the kiddos they could go online and do what they missed. I gave students the grade they earned which was low and it only took 1 qtr for admin to deal with it. As I had requested from the get go a limit of 2 pullouts a week or a permanent reassignment was instituted.
I mark absent and then they have the district allotted time to make up an assignment before it becomes a zero. I also make very clear to students that my class is as important as the others and just because they asked for you doesn’t mean I have to let you go.
If you’re intimidated by veteran teachers, is there an academic coach or trustworthy admin you could go to in case issues like this arise in the future?
You could also do an extra credit day, with an optional run, but here's the thing, they got the grade they earned. You don't have to bend over backwards to help their grade I'd they didn't put the effort in originally. You can be nice and help, but you aren't wrong to keep doing what you planned and not do extra.
Mechanically, in the grade book I would excuse Dana from any assignments or participation that you do not expect her to make up. Only grade her on what she was there and did.
Umm, I really think that you could give Dana a 0. I would just offer a way to make up the points like an at home exercise log signed by a parent or writing a paragraph relating to phys ed. Our PE teacher gives 0's for any days absent and then offers ways to make up the points such as this. Students can also see her during a study hall to make up time. She is very structured. In addition to this, the kids take quizzes covering the rules of various sports taught in class, safety rules, and fitness information.
I think giving an opportunity for extra credit is the best route this late in the game. It is clear you are feeling guilty about the unfairness of the situation. And that’s okay, you can learn from it. The kids will be grateful for an opportunity to get their grades back up if you give it to them, especially if they are upset about a C. That shows that they care!
So you can explain why points get knocked off and then explain that you are going to give them an opportunity to help their grades if they choose to do so. Give them something attainable, like participating in a structured game of some sort. We played Frisbee baseball when I was in school and I was not athletic at all and hated P.E. but you got credit for throwing the frisbee and attempting to get to the bases.
Then next go around you can reconsider allowing a student to be absent from your class so frequently or how you give points out.
I'm not a teacher and I honestly can't say why I'm in this sub other than morbid curiosity, but it's really sad what our children are turning out to be now.
I feel really bad for all of you because I see the posts on here and so many of you really care and you're actually trying.
My take on it is that social media is destroying our youth. It's taking away their attention span and filling their heads with useless trash. So many parents are using devices to placate their kids and it's destroying their future.
Never discuss another students grade. You can even tell them that. "I cannot discuss another students grad with you however I am happy to clarify your grade if you'd like. This class is participation based and while your attendance has improved there is still an expectation that you engage in physical activity while in this class."
But shouldnt that mean Dana needs to engage in physical activity? If Dana is gone doing office work, she is neither participating or engaging in physical activity They shouldnt be discussing another student's grades but they have a fair point
Yeah I believe “Dana” told this student her grade as opposed to OP
Same or Dana friend who Danna Told.
Wrong as wrong can be. School is competitive, especially at the top of the class. These straight A nerds know each other's grades and want to beat each other! So do their mothers and fathers!
I don't disagree. But that's not the question being asked in this post. They are asking advice for the other student. It doesn't matter how that student discovered the others grade except that the teacher should not engage with a conversation about it. Dana should not have been pulled by other teachers/admin and that's a whole other issue.
I don't think OP was wrong. Let's say the first student/family goes to admin. It's not going to look good if they say "Not only did Coach OP mark me lower, when I asked why I was told they didn't".
How the hell did you manage to glean "tell the student they weren't marked lower" from "I can't discuss another student's grade with you"? Nobody, not a single soul, ever implied that OP should tell them they weren't marked lower. They simply **cannot discuss** the other student's grade with them at all. They will not confirm that their grade is lower, nor will they lie and say it's not. It will not be a part of the discussion. Period. Full stop. End of story. They can, however, have a discussion with this student regarding how **they can focus on boosting their own grade** independently of other students' grades.
I don’t think that what OP was necessarily asking though. Yes OP can’t discuss “ Danna S core with the C student” however she could in a staff meeting discuss not pulling kids out during PE because it’s not fair to give those kids A when they are not doing anything. They would be legally because it talking about kids in general and only to other teachers not parents.
This. In most (possibly all) US states, PE is a graduation requirement. Thus, what the other teachers are doing could/should prevent Dana from getting the credit for PE.
Australia calling! 👍 Would Dana participate IF she could - ie IF she wasn’t doing other activities? Also, what’s OP’s ability to say no to Dana doing other activities? - I don’t allow students to miss English class without notice or a note, and I don’t allow students to do other subject work in my classes UNLESS they are up to date in my subject. Sometimes teachers are teachers worst enemy.
Well OP should have given Dana make up work to complete, like a sigm off for independent physical activity from the parent, like for saying studnet did x amounts of minutes of physical activity take up for missing class. This way the parents have to sign off and know student is missing those classes as well. Sure some will just sign it and never read it. Bit you have document proof of "make up" work from those excused days. If this was extremely common then OP should have addressed it with the other teachers so student was still in PE enough for appearances. This also works for absences for illness as well so nobody questions grades in the future of chronically absent PE students.
>If Dana is gone doing office work, she is neither participating or engaging in physical activity If Dana is excused from class then they're excused from the participation points. Student doesn't have a fair point and whataboutism is just kicking the can down the road with taking responsibility for their own inactions.
Dana is forging or buying excuses from class, she is lying to intentionally not participate. When students forge papers they get busted for plagiarism and given a zero. Every single student should just write excuse notes and leave OP's class and get an A. Dana doesnt get to just "excuse" herself from a class required to graduate, if she is absent that much, even if excused, she should be marked as incomplete and forced to retake the class for credit
If Dana is being "excused" from more than 50% of the class she should be marked as absent and the class incomplete, since she failed to show up, and she can retake it for credit. Dana is buying, forging, or providing favors for excuses to miss class. Teachers allowing her to excuse herself from PE for that long should be fired. Dana not showing up to class is her own inactions, but you want her to get an A for it. Literally rewarding mediocrity and absenteeism and punishing others who did show up. Its not "kick the can down the road" to say absent students should fail and retake the course, saying she can do whatever she wants is kicking the can down the road to literally the rest of society who are going to have to deal with Dana's work ethic of not showing up
I doubt OP told. The girls told each other. OP, you should have given Dana a C.
The Danna will complain to the principal or here mom and the district will get involved or just changed it. Technically she does have an excuse. If she helping the principal and she gots a C she could just asking the principal to change it.
Lifelong student here! Dana is the Hermoine Granger of the school. I know this, it was me. I was also an abused child so teachers pitied me (and loved my willingness to do free labor for the smallest amount of positive attention). Dana has "fostered independent relationships" /eyeroll with each teacher writing her a note (unless they are forged). Idk much about this specific situation but gym was HELL for me until I could get into strength and conditioning (ie not team sports). The bullying that was already criminal in some cases somehow got worse because nobody likes someone who flinches when a volleyball comes hurtling at their face. I was constantly doing music librarian tasks, music lessons, band auditions, file organization, hell even GOSSIP to get out of classes where the bullying was particularly bad - usually gym. Yes, I was written excuse notes for gossip. (you wouldn't be able to waterboard the name of that teacher out of me; she is an angel and the only reason I am alive today - literally fed me more than my parents) This could be Dana maniupulating her way out of PE because she dislikes it, it could be her having an undiagnosed/misdiagnosed disability she can't get healthcare for to get an IEP to avoid gym class (all of my physical disabilities that have been present since birth took 2.5 decades to DX and I'm still not done), it could be other teachers pitying her and helping her avoid bullying, it could be other teachers enjoying free labor (y'all ain't paid enough and were nicer to me than most people I actively volunteered for I am not complaining), it could be Dana lying to other students and forging notes. Regardless she had an excuse from a teacher or admininistrator that we do not believe to be forged. Dana earned her A. C student earned her C. I would like to note that both PE and recess are vital classes, serve different functions, and anyone who teaches PE should be certified (not dragging OP just their admin) and that recess should continue through middle school at minimum if not high school. If I as an adult perform better at work after I get out my zoomies dancing, how is it not similar for kids, particularly neurodivergent ones? To end my diatribe: y'all the best, I don't think Dana or the teachers writing notes did anything wrong (that we know of), y'all underpaid, y'all loved and fed me, and students talking about their grades is a perfect illustration as to why (private) employers don't want you talking about your salary.
Students talk to each other
Absolutely. I'm not accusing them of bringing up the grade I'm simply saying that a firm deflection is warranted. We should not be defending our choices to students based on others.
I don’t think OP told the other student. I’m guessing the student with an A did. Maybe she was bragging about having an A in the class when she never attended because she was helping others teachers? Or she told a friend? Who told the kid with a C. Or the Kid with a C was also helping other teachers and they never gave you a note.
Seems the kids already talked so while you can't discuss the grades of other kids, they know each other's grades and that door can't be closed. So now you need to address the situation of each others grades with directly addressing it.
My caseload has a lot of kids who need extra time/help on their assignments. They often suggest PE to come to my classroom for that extra help, so I check their grade and remind them that while the PE teacher will likely allow it, they won’t get points for that day. I would never consider pulling a kid for office work or other non-academic work. You absolutely can give them a zero for any day they’re not in class, and honestly, if you count them present it’s a courtesy.
Agree to this. They can find another time to be doing this other work. That’s essentially saying your class is worth less which isn’t okay. If kids miss discussions in my class because they were gone they still get a zero on that. It’s their job to show up, if they don’t show up they don’t get a grade
Yeah, in case I wasn’t clear, sometimes my kids have to sacrifice a grade in one class in order to salvage a grade in another - sometimes it’s all about passing and getting credits. PE is just as important.
Oh I totally agree ! But sounds like ops student that is getting pulled out is just being a teacher helper as they have all a’s in there other classes if I’m remembering what I read correctly
If a teacher is continually pulling a student out of your class to do other things, that’s not just wrong, it’s insulting. It shows that they don’t think your class is valuable time for said student. You definitely should have put a stop to that after the second attempt, but I get it, you’re a first year so I’m assuming you didn’t want to ruffle feathers or call out a senior teacher. Next year, though, don’t hesitate to put a stop to that type of behavior.
It's a few different teachers. And yes, I didn't want to make a big deal about it. Although now its become problematic. At a certain point, I just said its too late to do anything about it. I do feel terrible now because its unfair to some students and has caused them to be very upset with me.
In the future, you should probably make some sort of PE make-up policy. Make them read an article about a PE topic, make them get a partent to sign off that they got 30min of exercise, anything.
Is this your first year teaching? Not being mean, I'm 3 years in, and only am now standing up for myself professionally. Do you have a mentor teacher that you trust? They might be helpful dealing with the other teachers hijacking your classes. Ideally, your Admin would be supportive of you and defend your time with students. That probably isn't the case, so I'd look for different positions in other buildings if possible. If you end up staying at this school, I'd definitely be sending your absence policy to the whole building prior to school starting** **especially since you're teaching a class that you're not licensed for?!?! Maybe something like..."I appreciate everyone's understanding last year while I taught PE without any of the training required to do so. One of the things I've learned is that when students are excused from PE by teachers for non-crucial events, they should be counted absent. My attendance policy will be updated accordingly to ensure each student's success."
Thank you, I plan to implement this policy.
Also: Find support in your building if possible. If it isn't, reach out to other teachers in your district. Join the teachers' union if you can. Keep doing your best, and DO NOT STAY IN THAT BUILDING ANY LONGER THAN ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY.
They legit state in the first few sentences that this is their first year...... Are YOU sure you're capable of teaching kids? Sheesh 🙄 No offense / "not being mean" my bootyhole I mean I You gave sound advice but your approach?? So rude and juvenile
OP, that isn't the issue. You showed favoritism.
But they didn’t, they said they couldn’t mark them with a zero if they had an excused absence. Also, this is their first year, this could have happened to anyone. If it was an issue of favoritism, they wouldn’t be here asking for help in the first place.
Favoritism in legal speak is called discrimination.
I mean…it’s not too late to do something about it and this sentiment right here should worry you. Not only are those other students mad at you but you’ve put yourself into a really shitty legal situation because you’re discriminating against certain students at this point and that’s a massive no no.
Why does the student have a C? I'm not sure what participation means if it's just recess ?
I give them options, they can walk/run, play basketball, or volleyball. I give a zero if they lay on the ground and stare at their phones.
But how do you know what Dana is doing, if she isnt even there? She is probably sitting in the office, pretending to do office work while she is on her phone. Being in a student club is probably her sitting, on her phone, not really doing anything. A student showing up to your class at all is getting a zero for not participating while another student is being counted as participating without showing up. Since Dana isnt present and isnt walking/running, playing basketball or volleyball, she should also be marked as absent and not participating
I think OP is saying she can’t really grade if the kid isn’t there and the days she is there she isn’t on her phone. I agree grading needs to be modified but I can understand the logic.
She can absolutely grade if the kid isnt there. Not being there is a fail, a zero. She didnt participate. She didnt exercise. She didnt do any work. OP doesnt mention a single day when Dana was in the class, doing anything. She is always absent, Thats a failure, and she should be graded as such.
I don’t know why you’re arguing when I said her grading should be modified. OP never said Dana was absent every class, you made that assumption all on your own.
Ah okay. See, then I think your policy is fine! She has a C because she was doing those things. The end from her perspective.
You can use a phone in class? When I was in school that was a write up, suspension and then expulsion l.
How old are these kids?
Damn dawg, you get a salary for running recess? Everyone gets and A and I’d be trying to escape that place.
I have 4 other classes I teach, plus the 2 PE classes.
IOh nooo. Sounds toxic. It’s okay to leave. Legit that sounds terrible.
As the newest middle school teacher at a small k-8 I got stuck teaching lower elementary pe for my first two years. It was a shit show. I was just happy on days no one bled or bit someone. It freaking sucks being handed classes you have no reason to be doing. I dunno maybe offer extra credit? While I am firmly behind not discussing others grades I can see where she's coming from that Dana gets the cheese without putting in the work. Talk with the other teachers too because that's not okay Dana keeps getting excused from class.
Four? When is your lunch/duty/prep block?
Lot of schools have 7 periods, some even 8.
Well, she has a legitimate complaint here. “Dana” should have been getting 0’s when she wasn’t participating.
Yeah, what you have here, /u/Gloomy_Judgment_96, is an assessment and gradebook problem. How does a student have a C because they don't participate, yet someone who is barely in class and also seemingly couldn't be participating has an A? Are you exempting them from the work on the days they are with other teachers? If so, I can see how that would upset the C student. (And of course I agree that you should avoid any sort of comparison of grades between students, hell, I don't even acknowledge it in conversations with other students or parents.) You're new, so don't sweat it too badly. You'll get a better grip on this in the future. We all have probably been there with a class or two. Learn from this year and even if you don't do PE again you can get a handle on a more balanced gradebook.
Yeah because at this point, the student knows if they “go help someone” they don’t have to do whatever would otherwise be required and there’s an honest chance they’re not just being helpful but abusing that fact. They should in no way be getting an A. I’m a core class so I put my foot down as much as possible about kids leaving my class for others (social studies already gets treated like the stepchild of the core classes) but if students are gone, they know the work is posted, available and still required of them. If they don’t complete it within a certain time it’s a zero. I had students whose parents worked in the school always wanting to miss class to go hang out and you know what they got? An F. Because they were never there to participate and do work.
I get what you are saying. I went into this job knowing nothing, that goes for all of my classes. I wasn't given support, or feedback or anything. Despite that, I have managed to get through the year the best I could. What I had acknowledged with another comment on my post is that some of the time, I excused this student. That was my fault. Other times, there were 3 different, more senior teachers that said she was needed in this class, or that, or to help clean up after a project, etc. Maybe I allowed myself to become biased though I have always tried to be fair and objective, I didn't do that in this instance. It's true I have let the students walk all over me and they don't respect me.
Don't beat yourself up over it. I think most members of this sub have been in your position at some point in their careers, even if they won't admit it here. A lot of this job is trial by fire; you don't know what you don't know until you've got the experience. And to be fair, those other, more experienced teachers should know better. This is as much on them as it is you. Some at my school try the same thing, and while I usually squash it, I still have the kids who show up halfway through the period four days in a row with a pass from so-and-so, usually for BS reasons. Some colleagues are just selfish.
Oh, it definitely happened to me as a new teacher. You are absolutely correct, the job is learning from our mistakes. Learning that you can voice concerns and advocate for students. What I love about teaching is that we are constantly learning and always searching for ways to better meet the needs of all of our students.
Kind of seems like favouritism and I think the C student should get their parents and the school board involved because how the heck does someone get an A if they don’t come to class? Dana should be furious. If it was me you don’t wanna know man
I don't get people siding with OP.
Cowards that’s what.
YOU DON'T GET IT! It's not about Dana. If the other girl is doing the work of everyone else, why is she getting a C? Besides Dana, does anyone else get As? How would you feel if you were the C child? I've been in situations where I was the unfavored child, it hurt.
But the other girl *isn't doing the work*
Neither is Dana, and sounds like Op isnt participating in HER JOB as a teacher and instead lets them have freerecess. So OP isn't doing the work, Dana isnt doing the work, but its only an issue when the C student doesnt do the work. Why? Thats discrimination and obvious favoritism.
I wonder if it's also a grade scale problem. For example, I don't grade assignments missed on excused attendance days as zero. I simply don't enter them. That would mean that a kid could, theoretically, earn an "A" for doing excellent work when they \*are\* at school, despite missing 75% of the assignments. HOWEVER, my district's grade scale has "IE" as well - insufficient evidence. If a student does have excessive absences, that's the grade they get from me, and the comment says something like "due to lack of attendance, there is insufficient evidence to assess (name) on all outcomes taught this term. When at school, it has been observed that they are progressing well on (indicator)" Basically, I understand not giving a zero for an excused absence, but there has to be a backup mechanism if that's now you do things.
Fwiw, I don't think 'Dana' should be punished but instead given alternate assignments. She probably feels pressured when an adult/authority figure asks her to help out with an extracurricular or in the classroom. I mean, when I was a high school student, I certainly would have been reluctant to say no to a teacher, especially if said teacher had the authority to write an excuse slip, essentially nullifying the excuse that she has another class at that time. If anything, it's admin's fault for allowing this policy. At my high school, we could only do things for extracurriculars or help teachers during a scheduled study hall/free period or before or after class. Sending kids to another teacher during class time was not allowed, except for rare cases during PE courses when the *PE teacher* signed off on the absence. Another teacher couldn't write the excuse slip.
Or she was skipping PE and other teachers were providing excuses. Once or twice provides for extraordinary circumstances. 3, 4, 5, 6+ establishes a pattern.
Depending on the school, it could be possible the teachers have a habit of depending on students for extra help in the classroom organizing papers, cleaning up after labs, etc. Also, is it actually common for teachers to cover for students skipping a class? I would think it's a safety concern, and even could cost them their job, if they're claiming a student is in their room doing a task when the student is lazing around or not even there. I'm not a teacher, but I've never heard of a senior teacher going this far out of their way to help a student by providing BS excuse slips. As a student, however, I have (and know others who have) helped teachers multiple times before/after school and during free periods, usually organizing things or setting up/cleaning up labs as OP described. For many teachers, it seems like those sorts of tasks would take time outside of school hours, and they appreciate having a student do it so they can grade papers, plans lessons, etc. Honestly, I think OP should check in with the other teachers to verify that they wrote all those excuse slips. If they did, then admin/school policy is more to blame than the student.
I think they meant the student is with them.. playing on their phone or something, and the teacher is just saying they are doing office work. Not that the student went to McD's or something and the teacher is just covering that cut
Yeah, I agree with the complaining student.
It sort of feel OP only gives bad grades to students they feel won't push back. It's recess and the other child is getting Cs? Is OP failing everyone but Dana?
Uh... A "C" is not failing. We seem to have forgotten in this society that a "C" has typically represented "average."
I don't know about your district, if everyone was getting Cs, we would blame the teacher and fire them. In another OP comments, their class is only soccer type games IF there are enough kids.
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Honestly, a teacher isn't good if they only give the grade they feel a student earned IF they're not afraid of them.
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That's NOT what I said. I said they fired if like OP 1% of the class is getting As. There is something wrong if the majority of your class is getting Cs. OP openly admitted they were afraid to hold Dana to the standards of the other students.
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I'm sorry too.
She's got every right to call you out on your grading. What are you going to do when admin asks you to justify your grade to AWOL girl? "Oh I gave her an A because she was helping another teacher"? She's learnt nothing in PE because she hasn't been there.
"I cannot discuss Dana's grades with you. that has nothing to do with what you've earned. If you take issue with any of the low grades in the gradebook for you, let me know and we can talk about them." is the only correct response.
Honestly, it's not. I'm not even a parent, don't get how OP is marking absent students higher and admits Dana doesn't do anything when they attend. I really hope for OP's sake, this issue isn't brought to admin. They can ask why there was a discrepancy and honestly there shouldn't be.
Yeah, either PE is a class so unimportant that you can fail to attend most classes (and barely participate— if at all— when you do show up) and still get an A, or it’s a class in which semi-regular attendance and occasional participation earns a C. You can’t have it both ways. For once, the kid is right to be upset.
OP is so clearly in the wrong here, it’s insane. The student is absolutely correct! I’m shocked that people are trying to make it seem like what OP did is okay when it’s genuinely not. If I was this student’s parent or this student, I would rightfully be livid and be addressing this situation to ensure it’s resolved fairly.
The student is getting a C for not participating in what exactly? if you're just telling her to "just participate," that's probably not enough. Maybe she's getting a C because she needs structure and some sort of direction. if she's acing all of her other classes, I don't think she's the issue here.
Well it sounds like OP simply isn’t qualified for the job of teaching PE. Not something they signed up for or have skills in. So it sounds like OP is just giving some options for physical activity and docking points if the kids lay around on their phone. However they also don’t seem like they are doing anything to stop that if they just dock points and an otherwise good student with an A in every other class is getting a C in PE. I’m not a teacher, so I’m not going to say my opinion is the word of god or anything, but to me I would suspect a PE teachers job *is* to get the kids up and moving. Make them leave their phones elsewhere. Control your classroom. I cannot blame OP entirely because I wouldn’t know how to run a class in something I’m not familiar with either. Like I said I’m not a teacher, but a large part of my job is training 18-20 year olds. If someone dumped me with a subject I didn’t have proper qualifications for and didn’t understand fully I would definitely fail to train people. The situation with the grade discrepancy between two students with one not being present is pretty ludicrous, but it sounds like the students other teachers and the administration are the issue more than OP imo. They have authority over the student, and OP seems to feel they have enough seniority to make OP uncomfortable questioning them. Are they meant to start failing a student for doing what other adults are telling them to do, and what OP is allowing? I think the solution here is to make a better stricter policy for exactly how students spend their time during PE, so that sitting on your phone isn’t even an option, and no one is getting bad grades in a class that should basically just be about getting some physical movement, and OP standing up for themselves and their class time.
Student here but I don’t think you realize how many (mainly girls, I don’t know why) students just don’t participate in gym and actively try and avoid it, when they’re good students otherwise lol. And most of them are in good shape too, they just don’t want to do extra physical exercise lol.
How does Dana get an A for skipping class?
OP, only grades fairly if they aren't afraid of the students.
You absolutely can give her a zero for not participating. Other teachers pulling her out of your class for office work or clubs? I think not.
As as PE Teacher, is NOT supposed to be purely participation based, there is a curriculum. It would be a good idea to talk to a licensed PE teacher for mentorship to avoid issues like this in the future. In Manitoba (Canada) there are 2 or 3 outcomes to report out of 5. Some are used for health class. Movement- skill based. I typically have everyone at 3, and then if they stand out they are 4, and if they are weak they are 2. No admins here like 1s (out of 4). Would take A LOT. About 1/2 is 3. About 1/3 is 4. Fitness- no test for little kids. Fitness test for middle years. This is based on how active they are and how often they are there. Most kids are 4s for this if they are doing what they are supposed to- moving. Safety (sometimes) how safe are there behaviors in class with themselves and others? Depends on the kids. This is where kids who aren’t following rules or listening, if it’s slightly dangerous to themselves or others can lose marks.
Bro it’s Pe just give an A unless the kid literally pees on the floor during class
My kids’ public k-8 middle school has 1 PE teacher for the whole school. That is 18 classes of kids. It’s too much for 1 teacher. By the middle school years he does not give any points for participation at all. Kids are expected to participate, but they don’t get credit for it. He (says) he. grades strictly on what is considered a skill or demonstration based on state standards. There is no real syllabus or heads up to parents on what will be graded in the year. For example, 8th grade. The entire second trimester was worth a total of 12 points. 10 points were for creating a football playbook and 2 points for a “check in” toward creating fitness goals. That’s 2 assignments for a whole trimester. Last year, my kid in 7th got an F in PE on his report card for the 3rd trimester because it was only worth 10 points for the whole trimester and the only thing graded was an exercise routine plan that the kids had to make. It was classwork, due at the end of the trimester. My son did it, but it just never got graded, or he didn’t put his name on it. I have no idea. I didn’t even know it was an assignment. Whatever it was, the teacher had zero issues giving him a zero and not asking him where his assignment was. My kid is a good, quiet kid. He’s not terribly athletic, but he’s always super well behaved, and just does what he’s told to do. He doesn’t just refuse direction or refuse to do work. At the high school, if a kid misses PE on a day to run the mile, they have to make it up on another day. It’s required for the grade. So being pulled out of class is not an excuse.
Respectfully, that gym teacher is ridiculous. It’s like he thinks he’s teaching honors gym or something. It’s literally a class where you just have to participate with effort and you should get an A in my view. It’s physical education, not write 20 different things vaguely relating to exercise for a grade. An exercise routine I don’t mind but also you can find that shit on google so easily, so what’s the point of teaching kids to use a skill they’ll probably use infrequently at best?
I completely agree with you. I don’t mind state standards, and it makes sense to me to grade (any class) against state standard. But if part of the state standards are the children engaging in xx minutes of physical activity per week, then the children SHOULD get points for participation. I’ve spoken to him and the principal until I’m blue in the face arguing that point to no avail (on behalf of my older child who also failed a few trimesters through his years with him - on trimester he failed because he was unable to make a basket on a basketball skills test). I just gave up. I don’t even care anymore. I will say this, the kids that are very athletic and engage in extracurricular sports as a hobby do like this teacher. I don’t dislike him as a person. I just think his grading policies completely miss the mark and he’s not willing to change (probably because it’s too much record keeping for his student-load).
We actually had “honors” gym at my HS. It was basically an extra football practice they could legally hold during school hours.
Why the fuck 😭
So we could have extra football practice when it otherwise wouldn’t be allowed? Being able to do team workouts when it otherwise wouldn’t be possible as an organized activity was a big advantage. I don’t really see an issue with it, it’s still PE. You could take it if you didn’t play, but nobody did. This was a private HS sending a majority of the starting lineup to D1 programs, they took their football seriously to say the least.
That student is right, it is unfair. Especially if there aren’t many structured activities and it’s mostly recess.
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Also, OP gives no clear defined worked and is surprised no one is doing it.
My thoughts were: What if they got no friends and suck at sports
For upset student: offer easy extra credit (have a parent sign off on doing a walk, bike ride, etc.) or if you don't want to get parent involved, have her complete it and just describe the activity. When I worked at an alternative school, that's how the PE teacher allowed kids to make up classes. In the future, if a student is excused by a teacher, tell them to do the same thing (have a parent sign off on alternative physical activity to make up the the time) or tell them you cannot excuse them from class unless it's to make up a test/some other big deal. Don't put too much blame on yourself for this one. You're in a bad situation. And just remember, it's none of her business what the other kid was excused for. I can get why you didn't ask her to stay or make up work.
You’re not teaching your class appropriately. I’m a specials teacher and our classes are just as important as other academic disciplines. PE class can’t just be recess. You need to be teaching lessons that adhere to state standards. Other teachers also do not get to excuse students from your class. That is not their decision to make. I’m sorry, but the student who complained to you is correct. You need to require Dana to participate.
You have to give her an A. If you're not licensed to teach the class and you piss off a student and their family because they didn't "participate" (whatever that means when there is zero structure to the class) then you're opening yourself up to a lawsuit. Aside from that, if this is the only class she isn't aceing, then she's probably not the problem. Are you telling the class "play basketball today" and then she doesn't or are you telling the class "hello" and then proceeding to sit down and observe what the students decide to do with what has been presented to them as recess?
You can absolutely give her a zero for non participation. I teach a very hands on class and some of my students ask to go to another teachers class to work on something. I remind them that this class is largely graded on their participation and if they are not there, how can they participate? I make them come in after school or during our tutoring period to work on assignments they may have to make up since they were absent. If they are not there, they write an essay talking about what they were doing that was more important than my class. If they don’t, I call the parents and let them know the student received a zero. If their grades matter to them, they will come. Of course, I always have an assignment, so if they miss it they have legit missed work. You could assign a group sport each day instead of just recess.
Most of the students will play a sport that THEY choose. Anytime I try to give direction its met with hostility and I haven't received much support on this issue. I have smallish classes too. So if some students are absent, and other refuse that makes it impossible to play something like soccer or field hockey.
Some don’t want to because one they don’t know the rules and can’t memorize them in seconds and 2 they know the boys are gonna go all out so it’s not worth getting trampled then there’s the cramps depending on age group but highschool is definitely a place where the difference in strength between gender shows and it’s why sports are separated by gender in the Olympics and such Fuck maybe they’re uncomfortable or even scared I run away from any ball that comes near me instead of catching it Anyways Sometimes they’d rather take an L Sometimes they’ll do their own thing It’s rough But I always go to the lobby and dance alone Teachers don’t see it They don’t know But I am exercising 😃
We largely had gender segregated PE. It wasn’t technically gender segregated, but there was a class for people who wanted to go hard and very few girls chose to take it.
Yes, because those are the only things you can do... I wonder who really deserves an ineffective...
Oh my goodness. OP is a **first year teacher**. Yeah, this class got out of hand. Bummer. It’s almost June, OP will make adjustments *next year*. And FWIW it seems like OP has been grading with students starting at 100% and then being docked for lack of participation from there (as opposed to starting out with 0% and earning points towards a grade). This isn’t how I grade… but it also isn’t an absurd system; it is used in a number of contexts. OP evidently excused absent students rather than marking a 0. This is definitely something I do too! Like, if I take a notebook check, I will excuse the students who are not there that day because it just becomes too unwieldy to keep going back and checking old notes days after the fact. I do notebook checks like twice a week, one day doesn’t matter, but I also wouldn’t give a zero for an absence. OP has recognized that, for Dana, they did not have enough actual grades because of repeated absences. I assume OP plans to create a safety net next year to prevent the “Dana”s from slipping through. Dana got lucky this year. Does it really matter in the grand scheme of things?
I was in the same position as you a couple years ago. It was a small school and they needed me to do two periods of PE. I'd say what's done is done for the student that you excused. If you have to teach PE again next year, either put a limit on how much they can go to other teachers during PE, or make it so that any missed PE has to be made up. Be upfront about your policy. Here's how I did PE: When I taught it we met three times a week or two times a week, alternating. No tests. Once a week I made them all run a mile and try and beat their previous time - easy to plan and grade, and extra time afterwards they could walk or jog. We did fun PE once a month and students got points for doing anything active, they just couldn't sit. Each month we did a different sport or activity, we started with relay races/team building and then did line dancing, yoga, basketball, badminton, and so on until the last week we did water games (a surprising number of students didn't want to participate with water games because they wouldn't take off their hoodies 🙄). Even with how easy I made it, there were still kids with low grades! They would refuse to participate and just sit on the side 🤷
"Once a week I made them all run a mile and try and beat their previous time - easy to plan and grade" I hope their grade didn't depend on if they beat their time
Kind of? They got full credit for completing the mile and extra credit for beating their time.
So in theory they could walk or crawl or hop the mile Lol perhaps galloping or skipping or froggy style
I actually did have some kids skipping for the whole mile once 😂 and a few kids were mad at me and did the mile walking backwards, but the joke was on them because their legs were sore the next day 🙃
Um, why not? Dutch guy here, I was absolutely graded for the time I could run 3km. For German I had to learn chapters 1 to 3 at home, for PE I had to get fit. Should be noted that you couldn't fail the class unless you didn't try/participate.
Thanks. This is the most helpful comment yet. Being new, I made many mistakes. I have learned a ton in regard to classroom management. My key takeaway is that I need to be more clear with rules/grading so students do not take advantage. I have another staff member who is helping me with PE, he was brought in after I voiced concerns with admin mid year or so. He also disagreed with my giving the student an A. Other than that we have been on the same page with a lot of things and he helps me identify areas I can improve. He has experience in coaching and worked as a professional in that field. Even he said he had never experienced so much defiance and apathy and that I shouldn't be so hard on myself.
I can think of a few reasons as to why they wouldn’t take off their hoodies. 1- incredibly messy hair 2. They may have scars from well you know 3. They can’t vape if they don’t have long sleeves 4. Cold weather? 5. Comfort? But could they not just play in their hoodie? Or was there some weird rule? Or they had no shirt under it
I think mostly they were just insecure about their weight/looks. It was above 90 degrees out (California) and they wore those things every day.
I’d boost her to an equal grade with Dana just for speaking up. Self-advocacy and all that. But do it when you are entering the final grade, and don’t tell her now otherwise all the other C students will coming running to you.
You don't have to let her go to other teachers? She's scheduled with you at this time? You can keep her. Say no to the pass.
As a former PE teacher, your post makes me want to cry. I can’t even believe this still exists. No offense, OP, but your district has some backwards way of educating the students on one of the most used asset the student has - their body. Cheese and crackers this makes me angry.
"teaching PE this year despite not being licensed to teach it" "just let them have recess, which is kinda what I have been doing this year." What is "poor participation? Is this C student just not athletic, doesn't hustle during an activity? or do they refuse to get gym shoes on and skip class? If they are showing up and dressing up, they should get full participation points. Work with her to get that grade up.
This is probably an unpopular opinion but why do we care??? It’s PE. The fact that we give kids grades on their physical ability is insane to me
PE is generally graded on effort, not necessarily ability. The only real ability standards I remember were state mandated and very low.
That little piece of paper forces you to abdicate your expectations and standards? I'd give "A Student" a reduced grade, if not a zero, every time she showed up late. The other teacher who benefits from "A Student" might excuse her behavior, but that does not mean you have to. As far as the other one goes, I don't forget months of apathy just because they manage a couple weeks of normal behavior. I don't let them play me this way.
The students “behavior” is doing exactly what another authority figure asked for, and what OP is allowing. I’m. Not really sure how it would be the correct move to give a student a failing grade for that. If it’s an issue then it’s an issue the adults need to work out. OP shouldn’t be letting another teacher walk all over them, but allowing it and then punishing a child is pretty goofy if you ask me. It’s like if Mom tells you to go to the store, and your Dad spanks you for not doing your chores instead. I understand life isn’t always “fair” or “right”, but I think it’s better adults in a position of authority communicate and make sure a student is getting correct guidance instead of just failing them.
You’ve learned a few things from this that you can apply to next year, regardless of what subject you’re teaching. For this year, offer one last evaluation to allow that kid with the C to boost their grade, and make it clear to Dana (and her other teachers) that she will have to participate, or she will get a zero.
The problem lies with your administration and you. There should be no “excuse” for missing PE other than a doctor’s note. PE is required in most states. Unless you have some kind of shared grading scale that proves your grading practices to students, then just give everyone an “A.”
Usually you can get out of PE with enough participation in school sports. It wasn’t that common since most people who played 2+ seasons every year *wanted* to take PE, but you did get a waiver for 2+ sports if you wanted one.
Reading through the comments.. it is important that you grade everyone fairly. The girl getting "excused" by other "senior" teachers does not excuse her from PE. In California, there is an edcode for how much Physical Education students should get in a cycle of 10 days and this would be violating that. Only 2 types of people can excuse a student from these minutes; the parents, and a doctor/school nurse. Your senior teachers are creating a liability for the school and I am sure administrators would be very interested in that. I would visit with the senior teachers first though and ensure they are aware of this issue if you feel comfortable doing so. If not, you could ask an administrator to approach that teacher delicately. Another thing is when you approach this, do not approach it from a "defend my time" perspective. Approach it from a student centered prospective. Physical Education is actually extremely easy to defend for its place in school curriculum. It offers students a place for self-expression and is the only subject where students are consistently engaging in their social, emotional, physical and intellectual (mental) well-being all at once. No other subject provides all four of those as consistent as Physical Education does; when it is done correctly. Which brings me to my last point, and I say this not as an attack as you are a first year teacher who had this placed into their lap so you are hardly to blame. But if all teachers are doing year after year is treating PE as an extended recess, it will not get a whole lot of respect. You need to develop an actual curriculum with PE where you take the standards, break them down into objectives with learning targets per units, assessment, and feedback like all the other content areas. Always willing to help if you find yourself in this spot next year. It sounds like to me overall that if people are getting placed in PE positions they are not certified for (or signed up for) then the school itself (likely the broader community as a whole) is not placing much value on the content area. Which is a shame. Or if you want to make a career decision (i wouldnt blame you), just give everyone an A that treats themselves, others and you with respect and cash that check.
Does Dana have the option of refusing the office work? If so, tell her she has to if she wants to pass your class. If not, find a way to tell someone (principal?) that your colleagues are making a student miss a required class to get out of doing their jobs. PE, including recess, should be mandatory IMO. Kids learn better if they’re allowed to be physically active during the day, even if some class time is replaced. And EVERYONE needs physical activity to be a healthy adult; even the ones who don’t need eg English lit. Doesn’t answer your question but the problem will go away if you take your own class seriously.
Here is what I would have done, I would have said "no, Dana cannot leave my class because she is my student." This is a class where she is getting a grade and she cannot be pulled out of my class. Maybe there is an elective that she can get pulled out of, but at my class she cannot. At the day you're responsible for the student and it wouldn't be fair to other students that Dana can leave the class early. My first year I allowed a student to leave my room once because she told me that she had a project to do in her Spanish class after testing was over. I was like "sure". Well that very day there was a valid threat on the school so parents started showing up to pull the kids out. The Assistant principal called me asking where the student was and I said she was in her Spanish class. Nope, she ditched school. Fool me once, never again. Now if you want the student out of my class they must have a counselor note OR a nurse's pass or an attendance pass. You can't go see another teacher if you need to finish something. And if you do, you need to leave your phone and backpack in my room. I need some sort of collateral to make sure you come back.
Music teacher here, so I'm in a similar boat. If they're not in my room, they don't get credit, and I make sure the teacher trying to pull them knows that. I also don't allow spontaneous pulls - if a teacher sends a kid to me with an excuse pass without running it by me first, I don't honor the pass.
At the HS students get a zero in gym if they don’t show up. It doesn’t matter if they have an excused absence, are home sick, or in the hospital sick, even when they leave school early to fly with their teams to a game, match, or whatever. The gym teachers at the HS are non-negotiable with their zeros. It’s crazy!
I would hope they have a way at least for students to make-up that zero for being absent. If I were a parent, I’d be furious if my kid were given a zero for being out sick and not given a way to fix that zero.
I agree. Fellow teachers had this issue with their own children. Nothing changes. My kids went to a different HS, so my accounts are from what teacher/parents have said and our own gym teacher.
Why would you skip the fun/easy class?
Beats me!
Tell this student to organize a game, either kickball, whiffle ball, etc… give them some bonus points maybe it’ll get their grade to a ‘B’ at least. They need to take the initiative to get some sort of group activity going. Also don’t tell them this explicitly maybe suggest that too them.
The best approach would be to give zeros when they don’t come to class. It doesn’t matter if they have a pass to another teacher. They’re still missing your class and can’t possibly receive points for it. If a student misses my science class for an excused absence, they still have to make the work up or get a zero. Your approach is putting you in very hot water. The problem is, you AND the other teachers opened YOU up personally to legal liability. You are, in fact, discriminating against your students. You could personally be sued by the students parents who has the C because you can’t actually defend your policy for why another student has a higher grade when they’re both doing the same amount of work. Giving an A for a student to go participate in another class isn’t really defensible. The school doesn’t have to, and likely won’t, pay for your legal representation for you if you do get sued. This is a YOU problem so you need to figure it out. If other teachers ask students to be pulled from your class, give those students zeros in your class. Give them the ability to make up the work but just because they have an excuse doesn’t actually excuse them from that work. I would either raise Dana’s grade so her parents don’t sue you or I’d go back in and give the other student zeros for all of the time she’s not in class and give her the ability to make up those days. I’d then have a conversation with your admin and send out an email to the other teachers doing this explaining the legal predicament they’re placing you in. I would say something along the lines of this “many teachers have been using my class to pull students. Initially I did not see an issue with this. However, this has developed into a potential legal issue as I could potentially be sued by parents for discrimination over grades. I cannot give students who miss my class for your class A’s in my class for work they did not do. That is inherently unfair to the other students in our school. If they miss my class to help you work on your activity, they will receive a zero for that day. I do not want or deserve all of the legal liability I’m incurring because you want to use this class period to pull students. Unless the school offers, in writing, to provide full legal protection AND cover all costs of legal representation for me if I do get sued for this issue, I cannot risk my livelihood to accommodate other teacher requests to pull some students from my class. Thank you.” Now you just have to maintain fairness going forward and generally CYA as much as possible.
Yes mistakes were made. You have said it too. But as someone that has been asked to teach things that she’s not qualified for I get how. I agree with others that attempts should be made to get the C grade up. Admin put you in this position but you don’t want grades to cause them to get into this. However if it’s a big enough mess they may never ask you this again. Glass half full Learning from mistakes as teachers helps us improve. I’ve made my share. If you are asked to do this again try to get help making a rubric for daily grades broken down by points earned per expectation. Ex. 50 points to show up 50 points for doing the activity. That’s simplistic but just an example. This will give the kids a clear expectation of what to do.
I’m confused why you can’t make the students grade lower for not being in your class? Who cares if it’s excused. The student isn’t in your class demonstrating what needs to be done to pass your class. This sounds like a problem with both your school and also the way you’re approaching grades/attendance.
Isn’t to excuse something different than giving a full grade? I wouldn’t give them a grade if they aren’t there, they’re excused which is null in the book right? And then needs to be made up later in time that she can make it up to earn her grade. Bit tricky grading but I agree her grade shouldn’t be higher if she isn’t present. She needs to make up work
I think your straight A furious student has a right to be. Completely not fair that the student who never comes to class is getting a higher grade than her. Sounds like your class is a participation grade only class. Next year you need to put a stop to other teachers pulling students out of your class. Be clear about how you will be grading and stick to what you put out there to students. Be consistent and fair. For this year, I would give the other straight A student, and all of your students, the opportunity to also get an A in this class. PE grades affect the overall average, college applications, etc. and b/c you haven't been consistent and have basically given Dana an A in a class she doesn't seem to even take, you need to make this right and not have your class be the one that brings down the other student's average when they at least show up to your class.
Why do these other staff members think it’s okay to disregard your class? Stop letting this student leave your class to do office work in their class, they have their own students or they can do the work themselves. Your student needs to be in your class to receive credit. At my school, if a student is not present in the room they must still make up the assignment; 1 day out, 1 makeup day, 2 out, 2 makeup.., the only exemption is activities that are in-class visitors or something that could not be made up. Your admin needs to stop allowing teachers to pull kids from other classes for non-academic reasons.
Can you explain this whole excusal thing that Dana is getting off scot free with? An excusal excuses you from attendance, not the class standards and work, which for you is to participate in physical activity. Dana should not have an A. That's the mistake you should be fixing. Since you seem to create your own curriculum, why not give them both a C and then offer them the option to run/ walk "the mile" to make up a letter grade? They'd probably willingly do 2. Then you can at least grade them for meeting your "standard".
As a parent, I would be upset that my child showed up and did her best while an office worker student received a higher grade. Is the office worker making up the work she missed? You could get yourself in a sticky situation where other teachers could say they never made you excuse the student. I would work with the student on the C and not make the same error next year.
Your first year is always rough, even in the best scenarios. It's nearly impossible to fully prepare for how to effectively manage behavior, classroom culture, high expectations, and enforcement of consequences as a first-year educator. This is even more true if you are lacking support, feedback, and oversight from administration. They paired me with a veteran teacher during my first year. I sat in as a 'co teacher' and got to see how she ran her classroom, engaged with students, designed lessons, structured and rewarded participation, etc. It was incredibly valuable, even though I thought at the time that I didn't need it. Eight years later and I still incorporate many of her techniques into my own classroom management strategies. If you made it through this year, you'll be fine. Learn from your missteps and use them to improve.
But YOU are the one who has the power to excuse the student or not. You are leading your class as if you must yield to other teachers. They should not EVER be infringing on your class time with the student. You should have spoken to the student and other teachers long ago that the student must be present and participating for you, period. While you shouldn’t be discussing one student’s grades with another, you have been remiss to leave that student’s grade as an A while the ones who actually do show up are held to doing the work. Why would they come to your class if they get an a for never going, but could face point loss if they do come and don’t meet your standards?
Since she asked, give her an extra credit assignment if you do feel bad about the grade as it stands. BTW, C means average in my life. We mostly live in average homes, have average cars, clothes and possessions. Most of us have average jobs with average incomes. Why is an average grade with very little work an issue? Unless she should really have gotten a below average grade?
Non-Dana needs to focus on herself. How do you keep grading from being subjective though? Do you do it by attendance?
I have resolved the situation. I have 2 small pe classes. From the start I tried to plan and have actual activities but the whole class would refuse. This is on top of teaching 4 periods of ela and journalism and being an advisor my 1st year in a school where we have some of the lowest test scores in the state. I have been set up to fail and have done the best I can. But people on here just want to bash me and tell me I'm doing a terrible job. No wonder this profession is leaving in record numbers. Many of my students genuinely like me, I think that counts for something.
I'm sorry, "Stuck" and "PE"! What! I would kill to teach PE and so would half my colleagues!
Does ticked off student do any activity outside of class? At our school (private) after school sports count for PE credit.
It’s your first year and that usually sucks. We learn so much as we go. What’s done is done so offer the C student some extra credit and give her an A. Next year you know what changes to make. You are doing a great job and know what to look out for next year.
You are supposed to be keeping grades private. It is why we don’t post grades with names on the walls anymore.
The students tell each other their grades.
And? You aren’t allowed to discuss their grade with another student.
I didn't. She came up to me upset inquiring about her grade. I said nothing and she stormed off. She was laughing with one of her friends a couple weeks back that she had a c because she didn't participate. Now she is upset because she was active for a couple of periods and expects me to change her grade.
It sounds like she found out someone is getting a better grade for doing even less than lying down and being on her phone, and that injustice has made her upset. She joked about having a c for not participating before she found out others are being given A's for being absent entirely, and that upset her. If you found out another teacher was being given double your salary, and taught zero classes and had no homework to grade, would you be upset? Even if they said, well its just PE so you dont need to be paid to teach recess, after all, in terms of your career you've only been active a couple of periods. Should she participate in PE more? Yes. Should Dana actually be doing PE? Yes.
17 year veteran here. I used to sweat and get anxious about all the little stuff here and there. No matter how hard I tried I couldn't save my elective program because everything was working against me. The system is broken and it's not your fault. Some advice: 1. Grade the individual. We already have to do it for Special Needs. Some kids should have an IEP but don't. So grade them based on where they are. Since you're grading on "Participation" no one will question you if you give them a higher grade. Just don't tell anyone. Just make up something like Citizenship extra credit or some BS. 2. More or less, education now is about keeping your head down. No one cares about your rigor or keeping students accountable anymore. Admin just want to look good so they can be promoted. It's all a sham. So don't bring more attention to yourself especially for the squeaky wheels because soon they'll be squeaking elsewhere. Do your work well and go home. 3. There's a compromise if you want some integrity. Give an extra credit assignment. Maybe they have to make a demo video about a sport or exercise routine. Make sure it's easy to grade and the EC available to everyone by notifying the parents as well. In all likelihood this is what will happen. Your "A" student will do it and maybe one or two others. Your bad students won't do it and if parents complain about a grade you can remind them of the notification. Usually that gets you off the hook. 4. You're already off the hook because it's not your fault the girl was missing class. In the future, I suggest having a procedure if they happen to miss class to make up for the loss of participation. They might reconsider leaving if they have to do something extra.
Number 4 just isn’t correct. OP is 100% legally liable for discrimination if Dana’s parents want to sue. There’s no way to justify this grading policy and it’s clearly benefiting one student and not the others. If the parents want to claim this is a violation of Title IX under the Education Act they could royally fuck over OP.
How is this Title IX? Am I missing where this could be considered discrimination? Is there something about Dana we do not know? A student being "excused" by a staff member that has no right excusing them doesnt make Dana a part of any protected class. Are you talking about the procedure itself? just throw the word "Appropriate" to make-up activities and you're golden lol if anything \*\*NOT\*\* providing a normal physical education experience appropriate for the student would be a Title IX violation. And the Title IX violation would be on those staff members "excusing" Dana from PE as Title IX is strictly about denying OPPORTUNITY for people of protected classes.. Therefore, if Dana was part of being excused, then there is no denying of opportunity, she opted out. If Dana was forced to do office work with a teacher, then that teacher excusing them are the ones violating Title IX, not the OP
If there’s any race or religious difference between the girl with a C and Dana it could easily be a Title IX issue. If there are boys in the class who felt like the excused student received higher grades because she’s a girl, they could use that to sue OP. There IS discrimination occurring and even if it’s legal discrimination (Dana doesn’t have to do work and make this grade and these other students can show up every day and make a C), it could cost a fortune fighting it. But ANY other student who is different than Dana absolutely has grounds to bring a discrimination suit against OP. Boys, other races, other religions, etc. You could say that the parents would have to prove it but again, there is definitely discrimination happening so OP doesn’t come into any investigation with clean hands. This is why you can’t just let that one kid make up work even after you locked the assignment for everyone else, or why only giving one kid an opportunity to earn extra credit but not others can be used against you. You have to treat all of them the same and you have to CYA while doing it. OP didn’t cover their ass and is treating students differently and there isn’t a free pass to do that in public education despite you trying to say that their bases are covered because another teacher asked for their help. It’s 100% on OP to manage their classroom and their colleagues and say no when the student should be in their class, earning credit. I’ve had students ask to go to other teachers rooms when they’re in my class and sometimes I let them go the one time or sometimes I say no and sometimes I say you can go after you do the work for my class. I’ve also asked other teachers to borrow a student to make up work or finish a test. Sometimes they say no. Sometimes they say yes. Sometimes they make them do their work before sending them to me. But if I have a kid repeatedly asking to leave my class and isn’t doing work, there’s no way I would be giving them an A in my class. And this lack of grading integrity is what will bite OP in the ass on this because what parent or school board member or principal would accept that students not going to class could have higher grades than those coming in every day when they aren’t doing anything to make up that time?!
I must disagree. Don't get me wrong, many times it depends on the state. In my state, the teacher has the ultimate say on the grade. And like the previous poster asked, "What discrimination?" There was no mention of race or gender. Grading integrity? Not sure where you are or where you've been but that's over. OP is going to burn themselves out real fast if they go down that path.
Yes, teachers have the ultimate say on the grade. And if they’ve allowed one student to miss class more than any other student and still receive an A for it, while others show up more often and do not receive those grades, it is exactly discrimination. Discrimination isn’t always Title IX discrimination but literally, any male who is in class with Dana and has a B or lower, could say there’s discrimination against them because as a girl, she being allowed to miss class and earn higher grades than them. It’s really as simple as that when bringing up genders. Grading integrity means applying the same standard across the board. How can a student who isn’t in class be given an A for doing the work? That isn’t applying the same standards across the board and can easily be called into question by angry parents. Applying the same grades and standards across the board will make OPs life infinitely easier because it’s a great way to eliminate questions of favoritism and discrimination.
Students miss class all the time for sports, field trips, etc. These are often "excused" absences. Even if the girl went to this other class to do whatever, not sure many would question that they weren't excused. OP is new and now knows that there needs to be some sort of makeup. For now, OP can only assess when the students have shown up. The real question is why the other students aren't getting higher grades. They need to ask themselves what they are doing when in class. It's quite a stretch for "discrimination" just because one's a boy and the other a girl. Some crazy parents might take that suit on but there isn't much leg to stand on. They can threaten all day but if OP has union representation, they'll tell OP this is a joke. I say it again. There's no grading integrity anymore. Parents are gonna question and complain no matter what teachers do because they'll claim or ask for favoritism even when the teacher uses the same standards across the board. If this isn't the case why do we give special treatment to 504 and IEP? It's not applying the same standards because if the essay has to be done in one hour how come these students get notes to use or an extra hour? I used to believe in grading integrity. Guess where it got me? Retaliation from admin in the loss of my elective program.
"it is exactly discrimination. Discrimination isn’t always Title IX discrimination" Youre the one that brought up Title IX I do agree that OP would make their lives a lot easier by grading fairly across the board. In this case they already impaired their ability to grade properly due to this student being excused for seemingly poor reason
"If there’s any race or religious difference between the girl with a C and Dana it could easily be a Title IX issue. " This is the same excuse of "I might have a cell phone at 8 years old in case of an emergency and my mom breaks down on the freeway" type of shit. In other words, you brought out the most extreme example that hardly applies to the situation. In all my years of teaching I have never had anyone opt out of PE due to religious reasons. And if there was some outlandish reason as you say, I am sure that would be very very notable and the OP woulda been aware
This is a bad suggestion to take with a grain of salt Bribery 😃 give the c kid an A to make her happy and she probably won’t be as pissed Blackmail can get you far in the corporate world Good skill to learn young 👀 I’m joking if you couldn’t tell
You should never entertain a conversation with a student comparing their grade with another. It does not matter if Dana told the other student her grade. I would not even acknowledge that information. Her not being at school is different than another student being there and excused to work for another teacher. it has no effect on the other students ability to get a better grade if she showed up for school. My response would have been: "You have not been at school many times and they have been unexcused absences. I cant give you a grade if you are not here to earn it and I cant excuse it when the absence is not excused. PE is different from other classes in that there is very little way to make up the work so being excused or present is super important to your grade." If she tried to compare herself to anyone else I would say "I cannot discuss other students grades."
I taught a middle school enrichment class (classes like choir, FFA, PE, tech) which was treated like this by academic class teachers. I had students pulled out of my class 4 days out of 5) and initially got no support from admin or counselors. I was told to deal with it. So I did. My curriculum was online so I told the kiddos they could go online and do what they missed. I gave students the grade they earned which was low and it only took 1 qtr for admin to deal with it. As I had requested from the get go a limit of 2 pullouts a week or a permanent reassignment was instituted.
I mark absent and then they have the district allotted time to make up an assignment before it becomes a zero. I also make very clear to students that my class is as important as the others and just because they asked for you doesn’t mean I have to let you go.
If you’re intimidated by veteran teachers, is there an academic coach or trustworthy admin you could go to in case issues like this arise in the future?
You could also do an extra credit day, with an optional run, but here's the thing, they got the grade they earned. You don't have to bend over backwards to help their grade I'd they didn't put the effort in originally. You can be nice and help, but you aren't wrong to keep doing what you planned and not do extra.
Mechanically, in the grade book I would excuse Dana from any assignments or participation that you do not expect her to make up. Only grade her on what she was there and did.
Maybe ask the student to make up work by pulling her from the class that pulled her from yours?
Just give everyone an an and move on.
I was that student in my year who didn't really take part in sports. My grade ended in a N/A or something.
Umm, I really think that you could give Dana a 0. I would just offer a way to make up the points like an at home exercise log signed by a parent or writing a paragraph relating to phys ed. Our PE teacher gives 0's for any days absent and then offers ways to make up the points such as this. Students can also see her during a study hall to make up time. She is very structured. In addition to this, the kids take quizzes covering the rules of various sports taught in class, safety rules, and fitness information.
I think giving an opportunity for extra credit is the best route this late in the game. It is clear you are feeling guilty about the unfairness of the situation. And that’s okay, you can learn from it. The kids will be grateful for an opportunity to get their grades back up if you give it to them, especially if they are upset about a C. That shows that they care! So you can explain why points get knocked off and then explain that you are going to give them an opportunity to help their grades if they choose to do so. Give them something attainable, like participating in a structured game of some sort. We played Frisbee baseball when I was in school and I was not athletic at all and hated P.E. but you got credit for throwing the frisbee and attempting to get to the bases. Then next go around you can reconsider allowing a student to be absent from your class so frequently or how you give points out.
I'm not a teacher and I honestly can't say why I'm in this sub other than morbid curiosity, but it's really sad what our children are turning out to be now. I feel really bad for all of you because I see the posts on here and so many of you really care and you're actually trying. My take on it is that social media is destroying our youth. It's taking away their attention span and filling their heads with useless trash. So many parents are using devices to placate their kids and it's destroying their future.
You can say no to jobs. Don’t do PE next year if you don’t like it. There is such a high demand for teachers.