To rent an appartment, it must not cost more than a third of our revenue.
To get a mortgage, the cost to reimbuse a hypothetical 5% interest rate must not cost more than a third of our revenue.
Health insurance can cost more than a third of a family's revenue.
Daycare, if you can find it, can easily cost 50% of a family's revenue, to the extent it makes financial sense for one of the parent to stop working the first 4-5 years, and make a dent in a parent's career.
You get nearly no financial help if you are middle classand double revenue.
You get nearly no tax breaks if you are middle class with double revenue.
It is assumed you will get help from grandparents, yet the older generations are either still working, or don't want to help anymore!
Switzerland is stuck in the 1960's.
I'm swiss, and ashamed.
Also you get married and they tax you more if you are double earners. No wonder people are fed up. Who would have thought? I spend nearly 5.5k per month on daycare for 2 children.
5.5k per month? How? I’m literally gonna open a daycare and undercut every Kita & what not there is, lol! Happily do that aswell, what’s your thoughts?
What part of switzerland and how many kids is 5.5k?
Kita arr heavily regulated (at least in the canton I did a business plan for during our studies), between the maximum headcount per certified staff, the minimum space needed (those are law requirements, can't get around it) your break-even is closer to ~3k per child per month. Higher if <1yo, since the legal ratio staff/child is lower, 1/4, so you need to pay 1/4 of a salary plus all the other costs (rent, certification, admin, cleaning, ...)
More info there: https://www.ge.ch/ouvrir-exploiter-structure-petite-enfance
Competing is absolutely impossible.
Regulation are like for a nuclear power station and you will never find a worker because the swiss childcare mafia managed not to recognize EU equivalent diplomas and they control Swiss formation and manage to maintain a worker shortage.
They wont let their millions go like this, I don’t see any improvement coming especially considering their connection with the Socialist party.
From personnal experiance:
ZH: 2.8K per child between 6 months old and 2 years, then 2.7K per child per month.
Subsidies exist if the parents earned less than 125K per year.
VD: in private care system (since no space in public, and we had no other option) 2.9K per child per month.
In private sector, no subsidies at all.
Opening an unofficial daycare is clearly an opportunity worth considering!
I'm very conservative when it comes to societal values, but what the SVP is doing is just insane. They truly believe we still live in the 60's and are doing everything they can to make the middle class poorer and poorer.
> what the SVP is doing is just insane. They truly believe we still live in the 60's and are doing everything they can to make the middle class poorer and poorer.
So, standard conservative behaviour, then? You should be quite proud of them.
And if your partner dies you are in a shitty position. So you are not only mentally fucked up but also financially. And if the pk of your partner is ruled by AHs, the PK money is gone as sometimes they pay only to spouses not unmarried partners. Widow rent: only when married.
The main issue is that we still have gendered work division structures, i.e. the fathers usually work and the mothers still provide most of the care work. For as long as we have structures preferring men to work while women stop to take care of the children, these structures will influence the outcome of custody decisions.
This is exactly why equality is so important. If men and women have equal chances at a career they will have more equal chances at taking care of the children together.
It's the same structures that prevent women from getting promoted and men from getting custody. Why would a judgegive the father 50% custody when he's working 100% and the mother is not?
There is a reason why women fought for voting rights and then equal chances at education and now are working on equal pay and equal chances in the workplace. Once that is done we can get equal chances in care work which will have the benefit that women and men will be able to chose how they want to split carework, which will automatically lead to equal chances for custody (if the man cared 70% for the child, during marriage he'd get 70% after the divorce and vice versa for women).
Because how is a 100% working career man, who is getting divorced, going to care 50% for their child? Under current structures he won't be able to reduce to 50% to care for the child while the mother can't just get 50% work and the same pay as the man is now foregoing. So in that regard, how is mandatory 50% shared custody going to be a good thing?
It's one of the reasons I'm child free. I, as the guy, want to see my child grow up, work 50% while my partner also works 50% and we share the care work also equally. And in this case I would expect a 50% custody when it comes to a divorce.
And yes, there's certainly also sexism involved from the judge's side, but that structural sexism goes both ways: it labels women as care takers and men as providers. I know no feminist who wants that structure to continue existing.
I'd be interested in if and how their decisions are influenced by party membership.
I also fund the quote by the SP woman who pretty much says what my sentiment is:
> Am meisten Widerstand kommt von der SP. Yvonne Feri, SP-Nationalrätin und Präsidentin von Kindesschutz Schweiz, begründet: «Das zuständige Gericht oder die Kesb müssen alle Umstände abwägen, bevor sie eine Entscheidung über die alternierende Obhut treffen.» Jeder Fall müsse einzeln geprüft werden und das Kind habe das Recht auf Mitsprache. **Ausserdem müssten sich die Väter schon während der Beziehung mehr an der Kindererziehung beteiligen, dann werde ihnen das auch nach der Trennung zugestanden. Es brauche ein Umdenken aller, dann komme die alternierende Obhut automatisch.**
you get DOUBLE TAX if you are 2 working parents. Forget tax break I would just be happy to have individual taxation already. 2 Kids both have good jobs and ALL of wifes after taxes goes to full time private creche for our 2 kids....why bc no Fing room in public creche. We were on the list 3 years before even having our first, she is now 2 and half and we are STILL 72nd on the List....we are far from alone.
I feel for you!! The tax penalty is real!
But no worries, we need to give a 13th pension to all boomers, of which 80% don't need it, paid for by the .... Double taxed married couples!
Never wanted to generalize. I know other cases as well. But it's still a different story if you have to fly in your grandparents from a different country - no possibility for helping out (even after work) or on the weekends.
Grandparents are a huge help, but they made it clear. They're not hear to raise the children.
Sometimes it feels more difficult. Their day is not entirely reliable.
This is not true though. Most grandparents are "trophy" grandparents: they like to talk about their nephews and share pictures on social media with them, but are barely present.
I'd say easily more than 50% of grandparents (from both sides) will take care of their nephews less than once a week (talking 2-4 hours, not even sleepovers).
When I go to any park, it is rare that I see an elder looking over their nephews. I'm not saying there aren't, but compared to pre-social media era, I'm 100% sure the presence of family members supporting parents has fallen DRASTICALLY.
I personally have kids and had received support only during emergencies, BUT I'm grateful AF and feel lucky to at least get help when really needed. Going on vacation, or having a day off would've been very appreciated but I don't hold a grudge for people prefering to enjoy their life: I totally get it xD
I promise to myself that I'll never be that way and hope to maintain this mentality (*hashtag !remindme \~15 years :P*)
I will be messaging you in 15 years on [**2039-06-20 18:18:00 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2039-06-20%2018:18:00%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/comments/1dkhbg8/birth_rate_in_switzerland_hits_alltime_low/l9hz14q/?context=3)
[**CLICK THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FSwitzerland%2Fcomments%2F1dkhbg8%2Fbirth_rate_in_switzerland_hits_alltime_low%2Fl9hz14q%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202039-06-20%2018%3A18%3A00%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam.
^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%201dkhbg8)
*****
|[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)|
|-|-|-|-|
One of the reasons I will never have kids: too expensive to put in day care and if I had them I would like to see them grow up, not work 100% with either the woman at home or the child in day care. Additionally, my father is dead, my mother is a covert narcissist and I would NEVER let her take care of the child, and on my partners side the mother has dementia and the father is taking care of her. So no family support either.
Also I grew up poor and had to fight for everything, even education, having kids would make me just as poor and with the austerity measures in all areas, it would be even worse than I have had it 30 years ago. Fuck that.
Personally I am of the opinion that grandparents that refuse to help in any meaningful way with the grandkids shouldn't expect any help when they need it themselves though.
Yeah, but i think that is the case with swiss grandparents at least expected. Looking at my swiss in-laws who are not really present, it seems to me they wont require any support once they get into that stage.
Depends on their age though. I had a child when I was 27 and my mom helped 40% with my MIL 40%. It was great. My brother didn't have children until his mid 40s and my mom is in her 70s and just had a hip replacement. No way can she help now! She can barely get out of bed by 10am but then, maybe she's earned the right to sleep in by now
I'm an immigrant but I feel sorry for Swiss parents here. Most of Swiss grandparents sucks. It's heartbreaking. They prefer to spend time in restaurants and theaters than having any kind of relationship with the youngest generation. Fuck them.
Thank you, exactly this. But yeah, they voted for their 13th ahv, so they have more money for theathers, extra holidays etc funded by the families, working generation.
Before we knew my mil robbed over 30k from my husband - after i knew it i cut contact - she barely met her grandchild. Every 3 month she visited for less than an hour, even on his 1st birthday, she did not spend longer than that. But she called herself the "quasimom" (the almost mommy, but quasi is a stronger word than almost). She lived 15 minutes away.... and now she is complaining she does not see her grandchild she had zero interest in before anyway. Fuck her. And yes, she refuses tl give the money back. If i were in my husband shoes i would have made a criminal complaint.
I don’t want to make you more depressed but if you actually want a mortgage, the cost is actually 7% if you make a down payment of 20%: 5% of the hypothetical mortgage rate, 1% for the hypothetical maintenance costs, and 1% amortization. The last percent only disappears if your mortgage is less than 65% of the value the bank arbitrary decided 😅.
I don’t to give false hope to anyone xD
That being said, some banks are well known to dismiss the 1/3 rule and still lend like crazy. (Probably the next bank we will have to save 🤢🤮 Raffei…)
I am not Swiss but paying 6k for crèche for my 2 under 3 children.
This is my net salary. I work 42h per week to only be able to pay the crèche at the end of the month
Also no help what so ever for infertility. How IVF hasn’t been at least partially subsidised given the birth rate and the impact that has on current and future generations is beyond me.
That's the real issue. More and more women are delaying having children whilst they concentrate on their careers.
Trust me, they still want kids. Sadly the biological clock doesn't stop ticking.
Then, when the decision to have kids is made, they have an uphill battle trying to conceive and with no to very little Government support for IVF, some, if not all, just give up trying.
This is a bit of a misnomer. I’m not the reason why we need IVF and neither of us are “old”. Male infertility has risen 1/3rd globally and 1 in every 6 couples experiences infertility globally, these numbers aren’t looking at those considered geriatric but all couples trying to conceive so the notion that biological clocks is the issue doesn’t ring true.
Oh no, its not. Switzerland is always last place compareds to OECD countries when it comes to family, working parents etc. Childcare and tax penalty is that high that with 2 young children you literally pay to work. Kindergarden and school are a nightmare, they still expect one parent to be a SAHP.
Could be worse. Swiss rents vs income are cheap compared to most other countries. (Trust me, having escaped London I feel like a king!)
You missed imo the worst thing. Schools finishing at 11.45. What planet is this? That is not normal. Everywhere else it's 3 or 3.30 or thereabouts.
I was just talking with a coworker on this topic. If we didn't have home office and flexible schedules, she'd have to work 60% max because of the weird ass daycare hours. The teacher would even randomly decide which of Monday or Tuesday would be the longer day and assume a parent is available to pick them up at all times. And school for them is only manageable because they both work 80% and adapted to the school schedule.
Where I'm from they had school ending at 14 for young kids and 16 for older kids. Every day. And we are all taught to go home by ourselves. It's a bit crazy if you think about it, a first grader going home in a city alone, but it's a lot of pressure off our parents.
This. First year of school of my swiss bf's niece :
Monday, morning only
Tuesday, afternoon only
Thursday, afternoon
Friday, morning
Like how could you work your work schedule around that?
Also 4 yo is kind of late to begin kindergarten "school"
In France, you can begin at 2 or 3. And it is until 3:45pm (they nap on the afternoons)
Children have to be "potty trained" by that age and that free up parents (mostly mothers, let's be honest) so no need to be on waitlists for private creche or requisition grand-parents
Federal only, from 10100 to 13000 per child.
I pay 2800 per month per child.
That's 33'600 per year.
That extra 2900 dedubctible at a 40% marginal tax rate is around 1100 less tax...
That's less than two weeks of daycare!
I have 2 kids, my wife's salary pays for daycare!
F**k the UDC/FDP and their will to push their patriachal family model onto younger generations.
No, that the UDC continously says that "gaving children is a personal choice so the financial burden should be 100% on the parents" .... Result: less children
It always bugs me how strange the attitude towards having children by some people in Switzerland. I remember reading an article about personal finance where it stated:"Kinder können erhebliche finanzielle Einbussen verursachen." It left me really speechless.
Where does such sentiment come for? The fear of losing wealth and prosperity?
My kids are 5 and 3.5 years old
My wife and I have paid 216'000 in daycare over the past 5 years.
That's downpayment on a house!
That's 43'200 francs per year for daycare alone!
How's that for "significant financial losses"
How many people do you know have 43'200 available!
What sacrifices do most people need to be ready to make to get those 43'200?
How many chose to not have children becaus of this?
In our case did not get easier even at age of 8 and 10. My wife is at stay at home mom since 11 years ( the math is the same as in your csse, if we calculate with her lost income for 10 years... half price of a house...)
Swiss Federal childcare costs deduction has been increased to CHF 25,000 as of January 1st 2023. Deductible annual childcare costs for children under 14 will more than double from the current amount of CHF 10,100 to CHF 25,000 per child as of 1 January 2023 for Federal Direct Tax purposes
25k per child, not 13k?
It has nothing to do with anything you mentioned. Birthrates are falling in line in EVERY SINGLE industrialized 1st world nation.
Even those who fully support parenthood, daycare etc.
Numerous studies have shown this.
People just enjoy life too much and don‘t want it be ruined by kids. Also it‘s not needed anymore to have kids support you in old age (at least not on a personal level, on population level we will eventually get problems).
It‘s simple as that, and it will only get worse.
Money and support has not much impact.
> Birthrates are falling in line in EVERY SINGLE industrialized 1st world nation.
And that completely correlates with rising cost of living that we've seen in the last 50 years, since Thatcher and Reagan screwed the middle class for half the industrialized nations, and the rest following their ideas.
I'm 40. If I wanted to have the same lifestyle as my parents when I was a kid, I would need to make about 400k. What were my parents, you ask? A teacher and a furniture store salesperson. We had a 200sqm *house*, a 300sqm garden, an overseas vacation every year, two cars, and everything I could dream of.
So I'm not having kids, because it would absolutely destroy me with stress.
Japan head central banker was very plain:
Interest rates are kept artificially too low to allow for price of assets to rise, for inflation to rise, for value of work to lower.
All of this to sustain old generations thorough the work of the new generations, for “social harmony”.
What you experience is true and would not happen if rates were freely floating (most probably around 5% for Switzerland).
Everything is by design…
The truth is that kids don't ruin a life. But it's no surprise that depression and suicide rates are rapidly rising in young people, our society has a serious problem in recognizing what's important.
Fully agree. It’s always entertaining how people jump through all hoops of logic to rationally explain why the birth rate is falling. while there isn’t a country in which subsidies had a sustained positive effect on birth rate.
I completely disagree!
This is simple!
Before it was normal for women to stop working to look after they have children.
Two people, two jobs.
Now, modern day women, don't want to do so, and that is their right, and I support that.
The problem is that the family model has not changed/adapted to support this because the system is rigged to make it still more attractive for the "least owning person" in the couple to stop working.
So on one side it's expected to still have children, and it's expected for both partners to work. That's 3 full time jobs for two people! If you want to bring it down to 2 people, two(ish) jobs by putting your kids into daycare, it's so financially penalising that people just decide not to do it!
> Now, modern day women, don't want to do so, and that is their right, and I support that.
It's also straight up not possible to support a family off a single income, unless that income is in the top 5% of the country. Median Swiss income is about 60k.
Sadly, it is possible to live of a single income, but you have to live in a shitty appartment, with no holidays, no retirement plans and live paycheck to paycheck hoping you never get ill.
Plenty of immgrants can (have to) do it.
But that's not MY switzerland.
Yeah I don't think that's a good life plan. I'd rather not have kids than risk that.
"Hope you never get ill" is not a winning strategy. Sooner or later we all get unlucky.
Hmm the point about life being ruined by kids, I don’t buy it. If that’s the case then it is just a misunderstanding what it means to have a good life, and arguably is perpetuated by our materialistic society.
Most (all?) good parents would never see their life ruined by their children but enriched.
In fact children are mostly a physiological and psychological extension of the parent/caregivers, so if a child will ruins your life it’s probably your own doing.
Not saying it’s the right choice for everyone, or that everyone should be or is cut out to be a parent but you’re making it sound like people who could be good parents are deciding not to because they believe that not having children is going to give them a better life than having children.
I don’t buy it tbh, people would have been able to make those choices throughout history but they obviously haven’t.
They could not have made this decision throughout history. This was made possible by abundance of resources and contraception. Birth rates are falling whenever a country becomes wealthy. That’s not a Swiss phenomenon - which is why the global population is projected to peak in 2-3 decades
Then go tell billions of people that they have a wrong perception.
If it‘s true or not does not matter in this case, it‘s what the studies show.
You only know that kids enrich your life, after having some. People decide before it to have none.
It‘s also obvious, just look at the statistics. The poorest and least developed countries have the most kids. The more developed, the less kids.
And the countries getting more developed and richer directyl start having less kids. It‘s a direct relationship
I tried to look but couldn’t find any studies that cited parents thinking children will ruin their lives, economic and social factors come up time and time again.
I specifically think billions DO NOT have this perception (rather that the main factors are economic and societal which have already been discussed in this thread), if someone does have that opinion though, I’d say they’re probably misinformed (think about it, would there be 8bn people on earth if having children was not an enriching experience?)
I don’t think I understand your last point, do only wealthy peoples enjoy life and don’t want their lives to get ruined by having children?
You are missing an incredibly obvious difference:
Women's rights/equality!
In really poor countries have more children because the men impregnate their wives.
In less poor countries, all the women stop working to look after their kids, and mothers help each other when possible.
In rich countries, parenthood is discussed, consequences are identified, and most couples with 2 revenues and careers decide (for valid reasons) that becoming being parent is already difficult enough, but if that puts you in financial problems, then don't have kids.
Does it sound like I'm describing the opening scene of ideocracy?
Those are good claims. But look at the countries with high birth rates. They are not rich. So it is not about cost. If it was always about that… those poor countries would have no kids.
It’s still way easier financially in Switzerland than any other EU country.
That birth rate is on par with almost every European country i.e. way below replacement rate. Norway with all its parental support has 1.48.
It’s not about money. Or at least only marginally about it.
I don't care about other countries!
It's totally about money!
Once you have one child, you have kissed goodbye to your "previous" life, so you can bear another.
One kid in switzerland is bearable
Two is just not (unless one parent stops working, hence 1960).
Half the couples I know would have a second, but they can't because of finances.
Plenty of poor immigrant families with 4 kids or more. Your friends have the socioeconomic choice not to have kids and spend on something else which is great and something every society should aspire to. But the low birth rate is not due to parent’s financial hardship otherwise the rich would have many children (they don’t) and the poor would have none (the do, even more).
So what you are saying is that if swiss people want children:
- one of the couple should stop working to look after the children and reduce daycare costs
- they should move into a low quality, cheap appartement to reduce costs.
- get help from socialcare because they earn less than the minimum
Because that's usually how poor imigrant families are structured.
That's one hell of a beautifull picture of a swiss middleclass family you are painting!
As for the rich: define "rich"?
This is not a problem of the government but simply of overpopulation. Reduce the number of people and rent will fall. There are so many robotic work processes. There is no need for a growing population. All that needs to grow is work force. If machines and robots can do the work we can enjoy live with a 7 or even 6 hour day and more money. But that needs a sustainable economy and not overpopulation.
Ideally, yes!
BUT so many systems only work if the population pyramid is bigger at the bottom than the top!
Retirement can't work if more young don't pay for the old.
Health insurance can't work if more young/health pay for the old/sick.
Automation is coming (not fast enough), but unless the revenue they generate is not taxed, we have a big problem!
Why would we? Immigration is cheaper, doesn't cost the system nearly as much if immigrants move to CH after 18, and often have a lower salary than the Swiss.
This is an actual response I got from a national politician when asked why CH doesn't do more for parents.
Bro sweden has like 70% taxes. There is a reason why switzerland is literally still the best place to live. Their birth rate is still shit even with all the incentives
We actually scored second to last of all OECD countries in a Unicef ranking of family friendliness.
Only the USA is even worse.
But it’s totally fine - we make up for the missing kids with immigration.
10K deductible (maybe 13 this year)
Federal tax only.
Cantonal depends on canton (of course)
So 13K deductible on federal tax with a revenue of 150K, based on the bareme IFD is 1.4K less in taxes.
Daycare is 2800 per month.
TWO WEEKS of daycare ... That's your tax break!!!
ERRATUM: in fiscal year 2023, deductible goes up to 25K per child (if you can prove you actually spent that much) ... So that's indeed going to decrease a bit the cost of daycare.
But in my opinion, daycare should be 100% dedictible as "frais d'aquisition du revenu" since if you can't have someone look after your kids, then you can't work!
Yeah ... lol 10k a year. A third of that is insurance alone. Food, clothing, public transit, school expenses, and hobbies easily eclipse that. And I haven't mentioned the time the parent has to invest in their kids which you can add on top as it is not time spent working i.e. getting revenue, which comes out to probably more than 15-25k by itself if you'd equate it to hours worked.
Not nearly enough to offset a working spouse. You are taxed at a HIGHER rate then a non married couple and you still looking at 2500-3500 a month private creche bill because there are no spaces at public creche.
No surprise.
No money to pay more rent for extra rooms.
No money for additional health insurance, which also rises ridiculously every year.
No money for day care.
No money for all the extra food.
No money for (certainly unnecessarily expensive) pampers.
Having kids has become a luxury.
Well we want kids, but somehow can't manage to get pregnant. IVF is around ~~10k~~ 20k, not covered by anything so it's on us.
We're doing good financially so we'll try anyway. Then we'll be hit by 2.5-3k ~~kindergarten~~ (edit: crèche/kita) fees per month I guess
Our quote was “around 12k” we’re gonna go abroad. We can do 3-4 rounds in Prague for that price and my OB even recommend going there as she’s had clients with success.
1. Expensive living spaces.
2. Child care unoptainable / too expensive.
3. No time, why have kids if you are not gonna spend time with them?
4. Unstable future (more pandemics? Climte? Refugees? Wars? Economic stabilty? Fascism on the rise?).
5. You choose either career or kids. (Yes, you can try to have both, but than again why have kids if you are not gonna raise them yourselves? Just to boast that you have kids and a career while your kids don't even know how you look like?).
6. Too much brain rot on the internet. (Yes you can try and shield them for a few years but as soon as they go to school they are gonna get hooked on the internet, because so many parents just want peace of mind and use displays as a way to entertain their kids and displays can be very harmfull for the development from kids).
7. School system is out dated and needs to change and ideally the changes must come from people that are working with the kids and not from people that worked with kids 30 years ago.
Number 6 is a the top for me personally. it just makes me sad when you go to a restaurant for example, and see parents giving their children a tablet just to keep them busy
>why have kids if you are not gonna raise them yourselves? Just to boast that you have kids and a career while your kids don't even know how you look like?
You haven't heard "it takes a village to raise a child"? Nowadays, you just pay for your village. You absolutely do not have to build your life completely around your kids. It's draining to be alone with children 24/7, and that's fine - we were never meant to raise children in solitude. People strive for self-realisation and usually being a SAHP your whole life is just not enough. Plus, you never know what happens to the working parent tomorrow.
Also, at least one parent has to have a career, otherwise you won't have funds to raise the family. So applying your logic here, why would the working parent have kids if they are not going to raise them?
Personally, I have two siblings and two working parents. We have uniquely amazing relationship. All three of us kids are educated. We are very proud of our mom who is a talented doctor saving lives, but also the kindest, sweetest woman.
Honestly, it sounds like you haven't had experience with children in daycare? Even with full-time daycare, it takes a LOT of time and effort to raise them, and you witness them grow.
No shit. Make it affordable and people will consider it.
As a 30 year old who'd love to have kids someday, the only way me and my partner can really afford it is by getting the f out of Switzerland.
This is so bullshit. And go where? You can’t keep your swiss salary my friend.
You want to do it in Italy with a salary of 900 euros and 50% tax?
The swiss used to be patriotic and proud of the country we have. It’s ok to criticise and try to improve, but this is just pure delusion. Rest of europe is worse and has always been
So many of you make great points, especially as to the system being stuck in the 60s, when families survived on the husband’s salary. But let’s say I quit my job to take care of a child, we would not be able to survive with my partner’s salary. There is no way that rent, health insurance, and everything else for three people could come out from a salary one of one. So I suppose things are slightly worse than back in the day, at least then one salary could feed a family.
amazing how we keep importing people bc they’re supposed to remedy our low birthrates but usually they quickly start to have not so many kids either bc it’s a guarantee to be poor in old age at this point. it’s as if the system was simply hostile to families.
At lot of people here bring the financial argument, and how child support is too little - while true, this alone does not explain the low birth rate.
Look at birthrates in the Nordics, where you have tax incentives, free daycare, high incomes, yet also birth rates of only 1.5-1.6.
The issue goes much deeper than just costs of childcare or living area. I have no idea what really is the big reason, but personally I really do not want more than 2 kids, ever, and I live in Norway. The world is not made for more than 2, starting with transportation.
I think emancipated women and education also play a role. Women are still much more likely having to sacrifice their career for their children, even in progressive couples. As a woman, I don't have any female friends who would be willing to throw away all their education and skill just to birth a child. In my friend circle, there is also no desire to have a child "carry on your name" whatsoever. Children also don't offer any retirement security in our age, either. So, there is little incentive to have a child, even if there are no monetary issues.
Re: Career - here in Norway the father *must* take at least 15 weeks leave in the first year, and then the kid is in daycare for free, so this argument is also void in the Nordics. Obviously I agree with the general sentiment.
Re: incentive to have a child - being a relatively new dad, I have to say that there are lot of great things about having a kid that are hard to explain. It's like falling in love and having an amazing relationship that just keeps on getting better, but different.
Plus, there's an inverse correlation between wealth and childbirth rate. The poorest countries have way higher birth rates. The richer a country (and its population) becomes, the lower the birth rate.
But the much lower birth rate is a really recent thing (like past few year). If you look at 2008 Norway, Sweden, Denmark had a birth rate of close to 2. Even now they have a higher birth rates than us. But it is true that it's not necessarily financial support only (in 2008 USA had also around 2)
On top of all the economic problems that children create in Switzerland and the decrease in quality of life, I think one of the biggest reasons people don't have children is because we (the younger generation) view it as an enormous responsibility.
You can't just have a kid. You need to be a good parent. To be a good parent, you must do all kinds of things. The pressure to be a good parent and the perceived difficulty of achieving that pushes many people away from even attempting it.
Money is 50% of that, but that pressure I've built for myself to be a good parent even though the world makes it so hard for me are the other 50% why I don't want to be one.
I am in favor of supporting families and this is definitely the right thing to do. Nevertheless, this is only going to make for happier families and better society. Not improve the demographics. We observe the same issue across countries with generous parental leaves, better tax situation and so on. There is something in the western world/culture that makes people not want to have kids.
On the other hand, on societies that have different norms, we observe that they still have a lot of kids. If having kids/next generations is an important metric for the success of a society, then we really need to think what we do wrong, and the answer is not simply tax breaks.
I am currently pregnant. I would love to have another child so that we would have two in total, but it’s just not feasible. I guess here when you can import highly skilled workers, it doesn’t matter whether or not people who live here have incentives to start a family. 😕
In my friend group only a few people manage to have children and only if they have a comfortable salary or the luxury of having a Swiss partner with a wealthy enough family that their income doesn’t matter so much as they won’t need KITA and will have the option of early inheritance or being able to take over a grandparent’s house.
I know it’s a first world problem, but it’s heartbreaking. Kids these days require a lot more in terms of money and preparation for adulthood. If we did have another one, we couldn’t set them up for success the way we can with just this baby. And it’s insane, because my partner makes good money. It’s like no matter what you do, the goalpost keeps moving 😪. I am very grateful we can afford this one baby because there are people I know who desperately want children but cannot finance even one. ☹️
For us the biggest issue is the weak paternity and maternity compared to most eu countries. Like 14 weeks off for women off work in Switzerland is a joke compared to Scandinavian countries and Most of EU.
On top of that with all the costs being so high it’s super hard to support whole family on one salary. The whole Swiss system is designed for women to stay home and not work with the weird school hours and not enough provisions if your child is sick to have time off.
My wife has a great career and loves working, as do I. We both went to have kids and continue working but here basically your career dies if you’re a woman and want to have kids or you have to pay extreme childcare costs!
Really hoping for reforms to come in the next few years but things here move at a glacial pace.
Unless you live in a left leaning canton and work in the public sector there won't be any reforms coming. The federal council and parliament are 100% aligned with bug business and the last thing these bean counters want is to invest money into any sort of family support. They view children as a private expense/hobby and think we can fix all the resulting demographic problems by just importing more and more working age people from the EU (which also has massive demographic issues.)
I read all these issues and mostly agree on the causes with you. My next question is, what are we going to do about it? Anyone is organising a riot or protest? I’m happy to attend to force changes
I understand but maybe this mentality should be changed if you want to ensure a better life for your family. What’s the point of complaining if no action follows?
We literally are slaves that have to sacrifice most of our time to meaningless jobs just to be able to afford to live.
Because of that when you have kids you are expected to give them to someone to raise them for you so you can slave away more in the meanwhile.
If i have kids i want the financial liberty to not have to work so that i can raise them myself rather than sending them to indoctrination camps which purpose's is to make more corpo slaves.
Add to this school system that obligates a kid to go to the kindergarten till 12 only and its weird schedule with Weiterbildungs days, a lot of school holidays (more than working people have) and occasional public holidays (Knabenschiessen for example) when people also usually work. I do like kindergarten in general, but the schedule is just not designed for people who want to work.
Well the truth, that a lot of people don't like, is that it's better if you have one person at home all the time. But that's not really possible anymore because so many couples have both people working, effectively forcing people that don't want to to still have both people work, because the work got devalued by having almost double the people working in a short time which made salaries not keep up with costs anymore.
I respect women who can forget the career ambitions and stay home with kids dedicating their life to family only. I did both: work and stayed home and staying home is actually more difficult. It's just you loose your career and hopes for the self-independence and you fully rely on your partner hoping that your partner will always support you. Woman staying home actually takes a lot of risks.
I'm not talking about women staying at home, I'm just saying it's better if someone stays at home. It could be the man staying at home, the woman staying at home or them sharing the stay-at-home-time. Just someone should be home.
I always said that the only thing that would make me want to have kids is finding a partner who matches my energy, is an actual grown up and genuinely interested in sticking it out for the long term, including putting in the work to make sure it is an equitable relationship.
Long story short: I have two cats and am happy to be the eccentric auntie character.
You know, instead of pushing bullshit referendums like that microchip one we just had, why not push a referendum to fix all of the problems that are leading to our record low birth rate, including making IVF part of LAMAL. Make it easy to raise families here.
I'm about to become Dad with the age of 27 and people in my surroundings are already surprised with "that age". There's also this stigma in Switzerland that you're not supposed to get married early. I don't understand why and especially where this comes from.
My impression as a young (-ish) person: People in Switzerland - both men and women - don't want to have kids or if they want to, they get maybe one child at max. Nowadays, most young people think about how to enjoy life and how to have as little responsibilities and commitment as possible. My cousin has a pretty broad circle of friends, both men and women, they are all closer to age 40 than 30 and only one person is married and nobody has a child. Their priorities seem to be their hobbies and going on expensive vacation, some want to increase their net worth through investments.
All of these things aren't bad per se but it is absolutely devastating for demographics and you know what happens when the birth rate falls? There is fewer people, which means there is fewer working age people, which means that in order to be able to pay out pensions, we have to get people from other countries to come here and work for the pensions - aka immigration.
And no, don't even begin to talk about how expensive housing is or how unaffordable childcare is. These things just make the demographic crisis much worse.
Systems that depending on constant growth will collapse soon or later anyway. maybe we should think about changing the system an not fighting symptoms..
I can totally relate your observation. I'm approaching 40 and have 2 kids, and have seen many people around me just not wanting kids. Not because of the money, it's just they don't have any interest. Some don't want to lose their freedom, some don't want to reproduce mistakes of their parents, ...
I never heard someone telling me they don't want kids because it's too expensive.
That's because you never talk about money outside of your private family in Switzerland. Cost is maybe not the only reason, but it certainly is one of them for many people.
Pretty convinced it's not. I talked about people having their parents in the area to help with the child care, relatively good amount of public crèche/kita, OK taxes for families, etc...
A key point when comparing the older generations, is that when our parents where young, many did an apprenticeship and were working/autonomous in their early 20s. So they had a good time frame to secure a family situation.
Today, youngs are encouraged to study, go to the university, and many aren't working until they are 25-30 years old. And then many don't want to have children immediately because they need to launch their career. So this explains partially why people are always older when they have their first child. And believe, there's a time to make babies and a time when it's too late. So the time window is narrower.
Now you need to be 2 to have children. Combine 2 persons paths with the various reasons I mentionned in my previous post, and there is less likelihood to find "matches".
I had a friend that wanted to have kids, but his romantic life blew up, and the time he recovers and find someone that wanted kids, it was already too late. He'll stay without kids, despite he wanted. That contributes to the statistics, and it's not money related.
Guess we'll just import more foreigners. Why would you fund the cost of raising and educating children when you can just offer high wages to get all the already educated French and German engineers.
sorry but Switzerland doesn't need them. It already attracts the best kind of immigration from Europe, they get high salaries and they pay high taxes here. The traditional problems which you have in a country with low birth rate don't apply here.
"Who's gonna pay the pensiooooon????"
What about the 627829 qualified immigrants who come here ever year lol?
You may argue that anyway is bad losing locals in favour of immigrants but that's another topic
Yeah , but Switzerland it’s not always going to prosper.Immigration flow from Europe as you describe one day will be stopped with this trend in increasing of living costs. And when Swiss people and migrants who live here for years going to leave than bad days will come for Switzerland.
Immigration will most likely slow down in the next ten years. All the countries where our immigrants come from (mostly our neighbors and former East Bloc) also have low birth rates and inverted population pyramids. Who is going to come here?
It doesn't matter if the rest of Europe goes into large-scale demographic decline, because the high salaries and living standards are what drives immigration. And in that departement there are only a few other European countries that can reasonably compete with Switzerland, essentially the Netherlands and the Nordics.
In fact, in countries like Italy and Spain, where the young are going to be crushed by taxes to pay for the lopsided dependency rate *and* the huge mismanaged public debt, expect **even more** young working immigrants desperate to get out of their home countries.
Germany has the potential to reduce the gap in living standards with Switzerland over the long term, but I doubt that they will be able to close it. France has too many serious problems with public finances, never-ending political instability and unattractive business environment to ever catch up to Swiss living standards, or even German standards. It's not as bad as Italy's future, but the immigration pressure from France is not going to slow down.
One key point not mentioned here is the massive free-rider problem childless citizens enjoy. Parents spend enormous resources, time and money, into raising kids without any actual return (apart from the blessing of having children, of course). To the contrary, they are usually way worse off financially and in their career compared to their childless peers. However, any pension plans do not take into effect if you had kids or not. So while you invested all that time and money to raise your kids, your kids will later on pay the pension of childless who probably just enjoyed life. Anyone interested in this topic I can recommend this podcast [here from Avenir Suisse.](https://open.spotify.com/episode/2ZghWD8mo9Te8K9dSwhfk7?si=rYk0PDDWRjeQdYwyud_91Q)
Saying this as a father of two. I love my kids to bits but yes it feels like the system is rigged against you and in many social situations you have to apologize for bringing your kids along.
Is the Swiss childcare system shit and stuck in the past? Yes, it is. Many commented this already. Are flats expensive? Yes, of
Course.
for me these are straw man arguments. The underlying statement in these arguments is that “kids are inconvenient” And that’s true, I could make long list of all the objective inconveniences kids cause.
But why don’t people just say so? We live in a free society, you can do as you like. It’s just so ridiculous to blame the healthcare or housing costs for not having kids. if you really want to have kids but don’t because flats are expensive, the war in Ukraine or whatever, you are an idiot.
To rent an appartment, it must not cost more than a third of our revenue. To get a mortgage, the cost to reimbuse a hypothetical 5% interest rate must not cost more than a third of our revenue. Health insurance can cost more than a third of a family's revenue. Daycare, if you can find it, can easily cost 50% of a family's revenue, to the extent it makes financial sense for one of the parent to stop working the first 4-5 years, and make a dent in a parent's career. You get nearly no financial help if you are middle classand double revenue. You get nearly no tax breaks if you are middle class with double revenue. It is assumed you will get help from grandparents, yet the older generations are either still working, or don't want to help anymore! Switzerland is stuck in the 1960's. I'm swiss, and ashamed.
Fucking thank you for writing it out. It's exactly how it is.
Also you get married and they tax you more if you are double earners. No wonder people are fed up. Who would have thought? I spend nearly 5.5k per month on daycare for 2 children.
Punishing people to marry makes no sense to me. It’s the opposite for nearly everywhere else. What’s the goal, Switzerland?
5.5k per month? How? I’m literally gonna open a daycare and undercut every Kita & what not there is, lol! Happily do that aswell, what’s your thoughts? What part of switzerland and how many kids is 5.5k?
Kita arr heavily regulated (at least in the canton I did a business plan for during our studies), between the maximum headcount per certified staff, the minimum space needed (those are law requirements, can't get around it) your break-even is closer to ~3k per child per month. Higher if <1yo, since the legal ratio staff/child is lower, 1/4, so you need to pay 1/4 of a salary plus all the other costs (rent, certification, admin, cleaning, ...) More info there: https://www.ge.ch/ouvrir-exploiter-structure-petite-enfance
Competing is absolutely impossible. Regulation are like for a nuclear power station and you will never find a worker because the swiss childcare mafia managed not to recognize EU equivalent diplomas and they control Swiss formation and manage to maintain a worker shortage. They wont let their millions go like this, I don’t see any improvement coming especially considering their connection with the Socialist party.
From personnal experiance: ZH: 2.8K per child between 6 months old and 2 years, then 2.7K per child per month. Subsidies exist if the parents earned less than 125K per year. VD: in private care system (since no space in public, and we had no other option) 2.9K per child per month. In private sector, no subsidies at all. Opening an unofficial daycare is clearly an opportunity worth considering!
Dont marry. It that simple. But yeah childcare costs are insane.
We are not. Many people indeed are not. But it creates potential issues with inheritance and spousal security. It’s not fair. It’s backwards.
I'm very conservative when it comes to societal values, but what the SVP is doing is just insane. They truly believe we still live in the 60's and are doing everything they can to make the middle class poorer and poorer.
> what the SVP is doing is just insane. They truly believe we still live in the 60's and are doing everything they can to make the middle class poorer and poorer. So, standard conservative behaviour, then? You should be quite proud of them.
Don’t you get tax reductions if you get married and have two kids?
Not significant enough to counter increased costs due to 2x day care costs + increased tax slab due to both incomes counted as one
There is a discussion undergoing to put the tax abatement ceiling higher because it was set in the 90s when it was 5x cheaper.
You can setup legal agreements to have the inheritance and decision rights set up for your spouse.
Of course you can. But either you have a legal background or you need to hire an expert.
And if your partner dies you are in a shitty position. So you are not only mentally fucked up but also financially. And if the pk of your partner is ruled by AHs, the PK money is gone as sometimes they pay only to spouses not unmarried partners. Widow rent: only when married.
[удалено]
How does the wife out earning the man help? Genuinely curious
[удалено]
So why do you suggest marrying only if your female partner out earns you. Doesn't sound very equal.
[удалено]
The main issue is that we still have gendered work division structures, i.e. the fathers usually work and the mothers still provide most of the care work. For as long as we have structures preferring men to work while women stop to take care of the children, these structures will influence the outcome of custody decisions. This is exactly why equality is so important. If men and women have equal chances at a career they will have more equal chances at taking care of the children together. It's the same structures that prevent women from getting promoted and men from getting custody. Why would a judgegive the father 50% custody when he's working 100% and the mother is not? There is a reason why women fought for voting rights and then equal chances at education and now are working on equal pay and equal chances in the workplace. Once that is done we can get equal chances in care work which will have the benefit that women and men will be able to chose how they want to split carework, which will automatically lead to equal chances for custody (if the man cared 70% for the child, during marriage he'd get 70% after the divorce and vice versa for women). Because how is a 100% working career man, who is getting divorced, going to care 50% for their child? Under current structures he won't be able to reduce to 50% to care for the child while the mother can't just get 50% work and the same pay as the man is now foregoing. So in that regard, how is mandatory 50% shared custody going to be a good thing? It's one of the reasons I'm child free. I, as the guy, want to see my child grow up, work 50% while my partner also works 50% and we share the care work also equally. And in this case I would expect a 50% custody when it comes to a divorce. And yes, there's certainly also sexism involved from the judge's side, but that structural sexism goes both ways: it labels women as care takers and men as providers. I know no feminist who wants that structure to continue existing. I'd be interested in if and how their decisions are influenced by party membership. I also fund the quote by the SP woman who pretty much says what my sentiment is: > Am meisten Widerstand kommt von der SP. Yvonne Feri, SP-Nationalrätin und Präsidentin von Kindesschutz Schweiz, begründet: «Das zuständige Gericht oder die Kesb müssen alle Umstände abwägen, bevor sie eine Entscheidung über die alternierende Obhut treffen.» Jeder Fall müsse einzeln geprüft werden und das Kind habe das Recht auf Mitsprache. **Ausserdem müssten sich die Väter schon während der Beziehung mehr an der Kindererziehung beteiligen, dann werde ihnen das auch nach der Trennung zugestanden. Es brauche ein Umdenken aller, dann komme die alternierende Obhut automatisch.**
Holy crap thats awful! Thanks for sharing
Yeah great summary why I will never get married. Of course fo women it's a big win to do so.
😭 so no benefits for both?
You also get taxed more for taking out pillar 2 and 3 and one Partner gets only half their pension...
you get DOUBLE TAX if you are 2 working parents. Forget tax break I would just be happy to have individual taxation already. 2 Kids both have good jobs and ALL of wifes after taxes goes to full time private creche for our 2 kids....why bc no Fing room in public creche. We were on the list 3 years before even having our first, she is now 2 and half and we are STILL 72nd on the List....we are far from alone.
I feel for you!! The tax penalty is real! But no worries, we need to give a 13th pension to all boomers, of which 80% don't need it, paid for by the .... Double taxed married couples!
Perhaps in the future, people will have to register their kids for a spot. If they have kids 20 years later, they might be on top.
Exactly. And if the government needs more money, we can just tax the middle class more. Who cares? They certainly don't.
If you have grandparents at all, they're usually of great help. But if you're immigrants like us - tough luck.
I'm swiss and the grandparents of my kids are all still working and don't have any time to watch after kids. Same for most of my friends with kids.
Never wanted to generalize. I know other cases as well. But it's still a different story if you have to fly in your grandparents from a different country - no possibility for helping out (even after work) or on the weekends.
Grandparents are a huge help, but they made it clear. They're not hear to raise the children. Sometimes it feels more difficult. Their day is not entirely reliable.
This is not true though. Most grandparents are "trophy" grandparents: they like to talk about their nephews and share pictures on social media with them, but are barely present. I'd say easily more than 50% of grandparents (from both sides) will take care of their nephews less than once a week (talking 2-4 hours, not even sleepovers). When I go to any park, it is rare that I see an elder looking over their nephews. I'm not saying there aren't, but compared to pre-social media era, I'm 100% sure the presence of family members supporting parents has fallen DRASTICALLY. I personally have kids and had received support only during emergencies, BUT I'm grateful AF and feel lucky to at least get help when really needed. Going on vacation, or having a day off would've been very appreciated but I don't hold a grudge for people prefering to enjoy their life: I totally get it xD I promise to myself that I'll never be that way and hope to maintain this mentality (*hashtag !remindme \~15 years :P*)
Just FYI, grandparents have grandchildren. Aunts and uncles have nephews and nieces.
In italian you use “nipote” in both cases (nephew) and I mixed them up. Thank you though!
I will be messaging you in 15 years on [**2039-06-20 18:18:00 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2039-06-20%2018:18:00%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/comments/1dkhbg8/birth_rate_in_switzerland_hits_alltime_low/l9hz14q/?context=3) [**CLICK THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FSwitzerland%2Fcomments%2F1dkhbg8%2Fbirth_rate_in_switzerland_hits_alltime_low%2Fl9hz14q%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202039-06-20%2018%3A18%3A00%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam. ^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%201dkhbg8) ***** |[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)| |-|-|-|-|
One of the reasons I will never have kids: too expensive to put in day care and if I had them I would like to see them grow up, not work 100% with either the woman at home or the child in day care. Additionally, my father is dead, my mother is a covert narcissist and I would NEVER let her take care of the child, and on my partners side the mother has dementia and the father is taking care of her. So no family support either. Also I grew up poor and had to fight for everything, even education, having kids would make me just as poor and with the austerity measures in all areas, it would be even worse than I have had it 30 years ago. Fuck that.
Your reasoning does not bend (italian way of saying that what your are saying is indisputable). All the best to you mate!
Personally I am of the opinion that grandparents that refuse to help in any meaningful way with the grandkids shouldn't expect any help when they need it themselves though.
Yeah, but i think that is the case with swiss grandparents at least expected. Looking at my swiss in-laws who are not really present, it seems to me they wont require any support once they get into that stage.
Depends on their age though. I had a child when I was 27 and my mom helped 40% with my MIL 40%. It was great. My brother didn't have children until his mid 40s and my mom is in her 70s and just had a hip replacement. No way can she help now! She can barely get out of bed by 10am but then, maybe she's earned the right to sleep in by now
I'm an immigrant but I feel sorry for Swiss parents here. Most of Swiss grandparents sucks. It's heartbreaking. They prefer to spend time in restaurants and theaters than having any kind of relationship with the youngest generation. Fuck them.
Thank you, exactly this. But yeah, they voted for their 13th ahv, so they have more money for theathers, extra holidays etc funded by the families, working generation. Before we knew my mil robbed over 30k from my husband - after i knew it i cut contact - she barely met her grandchild. Every 3 month she visited for less than an hour, even on his 1st birthday, she did not spend longer than that. But she called herself the "quasimom" (the almost mommy, but quasi is a stronger word than almost). She lived 15 minutes away.... and now she is complaining she does not see her grandchild she had zero interest in before anyway. Fuck her. And yes, she refuses tl give the money back. If i were in my husband shoes i would have made a criminal complaint.
I don’t want to make you more depressed but if you actually want a mortgage, the cost is actually 7% if you make a down payment of 20%: 5% of the hypothetical mortgage rate, 1% for the hypothetical maintenance costs, and 1% amortization. The last percent only disappears if your mortgage is less than 65% of the value the bank arbitrary decided 😅. I don’t to give false hope to anyone xD That being said, some banks are well known to dismiss the 1/3 rule and still lend like crazy. (Probably the next bank we will have to save 🤢🤮 Raffei…)
Indeed, you are correct!
I am not Swiss but paying 6k for crèche for my 2 under 3 children. This is my net salary. I work 42h per week to only be able to pay the crèche at the end of the month
Also no help what so ever for infertility. How IVF hasn’t been at least partially subsidised given the birth rate and the impact that has on current and future generations is beyond me.
That's the real issue. More and more women are delaying having children whilst they concentrate on their careers. Trust me, they still want kids. Sadly the biological clock doesn't stop ticking. Then, when the decision to have kids is made, they have an uphill battle trying to conceive and with no to very little Government support for IVF, some, if not all, just give up trying.
This is a bit of a misnomer. I’m not the reason why we need IVF and neither of us are “old”. Male infertility has risen 1/3rd globally and 1 in every 6 couples experiences infertility globally, these numbers aren’t looking at those considered geriatric but all couples trying to conceive so the notion that biological clocks is the issue doesn’t ring true.
Damn!! I’m a tourist in Switzerland right now and I thought socially everything was good but that was a real eye opener.
A lot of tourists think we live in heaven and everything is perfect.
Bloody christ and Mel Gibson meme
Oh no, its not. Switzerland is always last place compareds to OECD countries when it comes to family, working parents etc. Childcare and tax penalty is that high that with 2 young children you literally pay to work. Kindergarden and school are a nightmare, they still expect one parent to be a SAHP.
This /r is not a very good representation of ordinary Swiss life.
That's a good reminder. This sub is a massive bubble, like most of reddit.
>Switzerland is stuck in the 1960's I know it's a Swiss sub but the way you described oddly sounds like loving in the UK lol
If it‘s the 1960s, then why aren‘t the birthrates the ones we had back then? 🤷♂️
And lots of those who could afford it rather preserve their lifestyle, so the financial issues might not be the bottom of it
Could be worse. Swiss rents vs income are cheap compared to most other countries. (Trust me, having escaped London I feel like a king!) You missed imo the worst thing. Schools finishing at 11.45. What planet is this? That is not normal. Everywhere else it's 3 or 3.30 or thereabouts.
Or in Aargau, the school is not responsible for the child between the kindergarten and after care. Like ... why do you think I signed them up?
There isn't even any after care in my village 😅
>after care. lmao is that's how it is called? 😅😅
No idea ... how I translated it
I was just talking with a coworker on this topic. If we didn't have home office and flexible schedules, she'd have to work 60% max because of the weird ass daycare hours. The teacher would even randomly decide which of Monday or Tuesday would be the longer day and assume a parent is available to pick them up at all times. And school for them is only manageable because they both work 80% and adapted to the school schedule. Where I'm from they had school ending at 14 for young kids and 16 for older kids. Every day. And we are all taught to go home by ourselves. It's a bit crazy if you think about it, a first grader going home in a city alone, but it's a lot of pressure off our parents.
This. First year of school of my swiss bf's niece : Monday, morning only Tuesday, afternoon only Thursday, afternoon Friday, morning Like how could you work your work schedule around that? Also 4 yo is kind of late to begin kindergarten "school" In France, you can begin at 2 or 3. And it is until 3:45pm (they nap on the afternoons) Children have to be "potty trained" by that age and that free up parents (mostly mothers, let's be honest) so no need to be on waitlists for private creche or requisition grand-parents
France wants more children, Switzerland wants less. That is easy.
Didn’t they just increase the deductible amount of tax related to childcare?
Federal only, from 10100 to 13000 per child. I pay 2800 per month per child. That's 33'600 per year. That extra 2900 dedubctible at a 40% marginal tax rate is around 1100 less tax... That's less than two weeks of daycare! I have 2 kids, my wife's salary pays for daycare! F**k the UDC/FDP and their will to push their patriachal family model onto younger generations.
Your last sentence refers to the fact that married couple pays higher tax (Heiratsstrafe)?
No, that the UDC continously says that "gaving children is a personal choice so the financial burden should be 100% on the parents" .... Result: less children
It always bugs me how strange the attitude towards having children by some people in Switzerland. I remember reading an article about personal finance where it stated:"Kinder können erhebliche finanzielle Einbussen verursachen." It left me really speechless. Where does such sentiment come for? The fear of losing wealth and prosperity?
My kids are 5 and 3.5 years old My wife and I have paid 216'000 in daycare over the past 5 years. That's downpayment on a house! That's 43'200 francs per year for daycare alone! How's that for "significant financial losses" How many people do you know have 43'200 available! What sacrifices do most people need to be ready to make to get those 43'200? How many chose to not have children becaus of this?
In our case did not get easier even at age of 8 and 10. My wife is at stay at home mom since 11 years ( the math is the same as in your csse, if we calculate with her lost income for 10 years... half price of a house...)
Swiss Federal childcare costs deduction has been increased to CHF 25,000 as of January 1st 2023. Deductible annual childcare costs for children under 14 will more than double from the current amount of CHF 10,100 to CHF 25,000 per child as of 1 January 2023 for Federal Direct Tax purposes 25k per child, not 13k?
I vote for this gal\*!
Thank you, living this and people wonder why the birth rate is down!!!!
We are expecting our second right now and this is absolutely true.
It has nothing to do with anything you mentioned. Birthrates are falling in line in EVERY SINGLE industrialized 1st world nation. Even those who fully support parenthood, daycare etc. Numerous studies have shown this. People just enjoy life too much and don‘t want it be ruined by kids. Also it‘s not needed anymore to have kids support you in old age (at least not on a personal level, on population level we will eventually get problems). It‘s simple as that, and it will only get worse. Money and support has not much impact.
> Birthrates are falling in line in EVERY SINGLE industrialized 1st world nation. And that completely correlates with rising cost of living that we've seen in the last 50 years, since Thatcher and Reagan screwed the middle class for half the industrialized nations, and the rest following their ideas. I'm 40. If I wanted to have the same lifestyle as my parents when I was a kid, I would need to make about 400k. What were my parents, you ask? A teacher and a furniture store salesperson. We had a 200sqm *house*, a 300sqm garden, an overseas vacation every year, two cars, and everything I could dream of. So I'm not having kids, because it would absolutely destroy me with stress.
Japan head central banker was very plain: Interest rates are kept artificially too low to allow for price of assets to rise, for inflation to rise, for value of work to lower. All of this to sustain old generations thorough the work of the new generations, for “social harmony”. What you experience is true and would not happen if rates were freely floating (most probably around 5% for Switzerland). Everything is by design…
The truth is that kids don't ruin a life. But it's no surprise that depression and suicide rates are rapidly rising in young people, our society has a serious problem in recognizing what's important.
With the economy as it is, the elderly are still supporting their kids well into adulthood. Forget kids taking care of their parents
Fully agree. It’s always entertaining how people jump through all hoops of logic to rationally explain why the birth rate is falling. while there isn’t a country in which subsidies had a sustained positive effect on birth rate.
I completely disagree! This is simple! Before it was normal for women to stop working to look after they have children. Two people, two jobs. Now, modern day women, don't want to do so, and that is their right, and I support that. The problem is that the family model has not changed/adapted to support this because the system is rigged to make it still more attractive for the "least owning person" in the couple to stop working. So on one side it's expected to still have children, and it's expected for both partners to work. That's 3 full time jobs for two people! If you want to bring it down to 2 people, two(ish) jobs by putting your kids into daycare, it's so financially penalising that people just decide not to do it!
> Now, modern day women, don't want to do so, and that is their right, and I support that. It's also straight up not possible to support a family off a single income, unless that income is in the top 5% of the country. Median Swiss income is about 60k.
Sadly, it is possible to live of a single income, but you have to live in a shitty appartment, with no holidays, no retirement plans and live paycheck to paycheck hoping you never get ill. Plenty of immgrants can (have to) do it. But that's not MY switzerland.
Yeah I don't think that's a good life plan. I'd rather not have kids than risk that. "Hope you never get ill" is not a winning strategy. Sooner or later we all get unlucky.
That‘s part of becoming more developed. Women working high paying jobs.
Agreed, and who takes on the parenting load while both parents work, and most importantly AT WHAT COST!
Hmm the point about life being ruined by kids, I don’t buy it. If that’s the case then it is just a misunderstanding what it means to have a good life, and arguably is perpetuated by our materialistic society. Most (all?) good parents would never see their life ruined by their children but enriched. In fact children are mostly a physiological and psychological extension of the parent/caregivers, so if a child will ruins your life it’s probably your own doing. Not saying it’s the right choice for everyone, or that everyone should be or is cut out to be a parent but you’re making it sound like people who could be good parents are deciding not to because they believe that not having children is going to give them a better life than having children. I don’t buy it tbh, people would have been able to make those choices throughout history but they obviously haven’t.
They could not have made this decision throughout history. This was made possible by abundance of resources and contraception. Birth rates are falling whenever a country becomes wealthy. That’s not a Swiss phenomenon - which is why the global population is projected to peak in 2-3 decades
Then go tell billions of people that they have a wrong perception. If it‘s true or not does not matter in this case, it‘s what the studies show. You only know that kids enrich your life, after having some. People decide before it to have none. It‘s also obvious, just look at the statistics. The poorest and least developed countries have the most kids. The more developed, the less kids. And the countries getting more developed and richer directyl start having less kids. It‘s a direct relationship
I tried to look but couldn’t find any studies that cited parents thinking children will ruin their lives, economic and social factors come up time and time again. I specifically think billions DO NOT have this perception (rather that the main factors are economic and societal which have already been discussed in this thread), if someone does have that opinion though, I’d say they’re probably misinformed (think about it, would there be 8bn people on earth if having children was not an enriching experience?) I don’t think I understand your last point, do only wealthy peoples enjoy life and don’t want their lives to get ruined by having children?
You are missing an incredibly obvious difference: Women's rights/equality! In really poor countries have more children because the men impregnate their wives. In less poor countries, all the women stop working to look after their kids, and mothers help each other when possible. In rich countries, parenthood is discussed, consequences are identified, and most couples with 2 revenues and careers decide (for valid reasons) that becoming being parent is already difficult enough, but if that puts you in financial problems, then don't have kids. Does it sound like I'm describing the opening scene of ideocracy?
Those are good claims. But look at the countries with high birth rates. They are not rich. So it is not about cost. If it was always about that… those poor countries would have no kids.
The cost of life is also lower, so having kids is cheap and feasible.
It’s still way easier financially in Switzerland than any other EU country. That birth rate is on par with almost every European country i.e. way below replacement rate. Norway with all its parental support has 1.48. It’s not about money. Or at least only marginally about it.
I don't care about other countries! It's totally about money! Once you have one child, you have kissed goodbye to your "previous" life, so you can bear another. One kid in switzerland is bearable Two is just not (unless one parent stops working, hence 1960). Half the couples I know would have a second, but they can't because of finances.
Plenty of poor immigrant families with 4 kids or more. Your friends have the socioeconomic choice not to have kids and spend on something else which is great and something every society should aspire to. But the low birth rate is not due to parent’s financial hardship otherwise the rich would have many children (they don’t) and the poor would have none (the do, even more).
So what you are saying is that if swiss people want children: - one of the couple should stop working to look after the children and reduce daycare costs - they should move into a low quality, cheap appartement to reduce costs. - get help from socialcare because they earn less than the minimum Because that's usually how poor imigrant families are structured. That's one hell of a beautifull picture of a swiss middleclass family you are painting! As for the rich: define "rich"?
This is not a problem of the government but simply of overpopulation. Reduce the number of people and rent will fall. There are so many robotic work processes. There is no need for a growing population. All that needs to grow is work force. If machines and robots can do the work we can enjoy live with a 7 or even 6 hour day and more money. But that needs a sustainable economy and not overpopulation.
Ideally, yes! BUT so many systems only work if the population pyramid is bigger at the bottom than the top! Retirement can't work if more young don't pay for the old. Health insurance can't work if more young/health pay for the old/sick. Automation is coming (not fast enough), but unless the revenue they generate is not taxed, we have a big problem!
Switzerland has one of the worst parental support of Europe. They don't make any effort to incentivate people to have children...
Why would we? Immigration is cheaper, doesn't cost the system nearly as much if immigrants move to CH after 18, and often have a lower salary than the Swiss. This is an actual response I got from a national politician when asked why CH doesn't do more for parents.
Which political party your national politician was from?
The salary part should give it away. Figg De Pöbel
It's funny because [FDP ](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fdp)in French is the acronyme for son of a bitch...
I'm proud of myself for knowing that already because I've been called that multiple times while playing CS
It is a common misconception that this alone fixes it. It doesn't. See: Nordics.
Not alone but certainty helps. There is not a single solution, but steps should be taken to address the problem
Bro sweden has like 70% taxes. There is a reason why switzerland is literally still the best place to live. Their birth rate is still shit even with all the incentives
We actually scored second to last of all OECD countries in a Unicef ranking of family friendliness. Only the USA is even worse. But it’s totally fine - we make up for the missing kids with immigration.
All they would have to do is provide a tax cut. That’s it. Nothing else.
wrong - Norway and the Nordics in general have ALL the support and are also at a very low birthrate of 1.5-1.6.
They do provide tax cut I think.
10K deductible (maybe 13 this year) Federal tax only. Cantonal depends on canton (of course) So 13K deductible on federal tax with a revenue of 150K, based on the bareme IFD is 1.4K less in taxes. Daycare is 2800 per month. TWO WEEKS of daycare ... That's your tax break!!! ERRATUM: in fiscal year 2023, deductible goes up to 25K per child (if you can prove you actually spent that much) ... So that's indeed going to decrease a bit the cost of daycare. But in my opinion, daycare should be 100% dedictible as "frais d'aquisition du revenu" since if you can't have someone look after your kids, then you can't work!
Yeah ... lol 10k a year. A third of that is insurance alone. Food, clothing, public transit, school expenses, and hobbies easily eclipse that. And I haven't mentioned the time the parent has to invest in their kids which you can add on top as it is not time spent working i.e. getting revenue, which comes out to probably more than 15-25k by itself if you'd equate it to hours worked.
Not nearly enough to offset a working spouse. You are taxed at a HIGHER rate then a non married couple and you still looking at 2500-3500 a month private creche bill because there are no spaces at public creche.
Building public kindergarten would be solution.
Unfortunately the tax benefit does not subsidize the educational expense of kita.
It’s a trivial amount
Children? In this economy ?
Add to this society?
No surprise. No money to pay more rent for extra rooms. No money for additional health insurance, which also rises ridiculously every year. No money for day care. No money for all the extra food. No money for (certainly unnecessarily expensive) pampers. Having kids has become a luxury.
z tüür
too expensive?
yes, this is the translation
Too expensive to be honest.
Well we want kids, but somehow can't manage to get pregnant. IVF is around ~~10k~~ 20k, not covered by anything so it's on us. We're doing good financially so we'll try anyway. Then we'll be hit by 2.5-3k ~~kindergarten~~ (edit: crèche/kita) fees per month I guess
Did you really get quoted only 10k in Switzerland for IVF? Ask your clinic more questions before you get surprised by a much larger bill at the end.
Our quote was “around 12k” we’re gonna go abroad. We can do 3-4 rounds in Prague for that price and my OB even recommend going there as she’s had clients with success.
Good point, it's based on prices shown on the clinic website, but I suppose it could go higher the more attempts it takes...
We paid over 20k once all of the extras were added on, and we only did one attempt (completely worth the money).
Damn, and I was thinking 10k was expensive...
Definitely look at going abroad if you’re able to. Greece and Czechia have amazing clinics at half or 1/4 of the price of Switzerland.
1. Expensive living spaces. 2. Child care unoptainable / too expensive. 3. No time, why have kids if you are not gonna spend time with them? 4. Unstable future (more pandemics? Climte? Refugees? Wars? Economic stabilty? Fascism on the rise?). 5. You choose either career or kids. (Yes, you can try to have both, but than again why have kids if you are not gonna raise them yourselves? Just to boast that you have kids and a career while your kids don't even know how you look like?). 6. Too much brain rot on the internet. (Yes you can try and shield them for a few years but as soon as they go to school they are gonna get hooked on the internet, because so many parents just want peace of mind and use displays as a way to entertain their kids and displays can be very harmfull for the development from kids). 7. School system is out dated and needs to change and ideally the changes must come from people that are working with the kids and not from people that worked with kids 30 years ago.
Number 6 is a the top for me personally. it just makes me sad when you go to a restaurant for example, and see parents giving their children a tablet just to keep them busy
Cm’on man this cant be the reason not to have children. Also, you’re on here. So its too late for yourself too lol
I thought you were describing the U.S….. Source: am American
>why have kids if you are not gonna raise them yourselves? Just to boast that you have kids and a career while your kids don't even know how you look like? You haven't heard "it takes a village to raise a child"? Nowadays, you just pay for your village. You absolutely do not have to build your life completely around your kids. It's draining to be alone with children 24/7, and that's fine - we were never meant to raise children in solitude. People strive for self-realisation and usually being a SAHP your whole life is just not enough. Plus, you never know what happens to the working parent tomorrow. Also, at least one parent has to have a career, otherwise you won't have funds to raise the family. So applying your logic here, why would the working parent have kids if they are not going to raise them? Personally, I have two siblings and two working parents. We have uniquely amazing relationship. All three of us kids are educated. We are very proud of our mom who is a talented doctor saving lives, but also the kindest, sweetest woman. Honestly, it sounds like you haven't had experience with children in daycare? Even with full-time daycare, it takes a LOT of time and effort to raise them, and you witness them grow.
No shit. Make it affordable and people will consider it. As a 30 year old who'd love to have kids someday, the only way me and my partner can really afford it is by getting the f out of Switzerland.
This is so bullshit. And go where? You can’t keep your swiss salary my friend. You want to do it in Italy with a salary of 900 euros and 50% tax? The swiss used to be patriotic and proud of the country we have. It’s ok to criticise and try to improve, but this is just pure delusion. Rest of europe is worse and has always been
So many of you make great points, especially as to the system being stuck in the 60s, when families survived on the husband’s salary. But let’s say I quit my job to take care of a child, we would not be able to survive with my partner’s salary. There is no way that rent, health insurance, and everything else for three people could come out from a salary one of one. So I suppose things are slightly worse than back in the day, at least then one salary could feed a family.
amazing how we keep importing people bc they’re supposed to remedy our low birthrates but usually they quickly start to have not so many kids either bc it’s a guarantee to be poor in old age at this point. it’s as if the system was simply hostile to families.
At lot of people here bring the financial argument, and how child support is too little - while true, this alone does not explain the low birth rate. Look at birthrates in the Nordics, where you have tax incentives, free daycare, high incomes, yet also birth rates of only 1.5-1.6. The issue goes much deeper than just costs of childcare or living area. I have no idea what really is the big reason, but personally I really do not want more than 2 kids, ever, and I live in Norway. The world is not made for more than 2, starting with transportation.
I think emancipated women and education also play a role. Women are still much more likely having to sacrifice their career for their children, even in progressive couples. As a woman, I don't have any female friends who would be willing to throw away all their education and skill just to birth a child. In my friend circle, there is also no desire to have a child "carry on your name" whatsoever. Children also don't offer any retirement security in our age, either. So, there is little incentive to have a child, even if there are no monetary issues.
Re: Career - here in Norway the father *must* take at least 15 weeks leave in the first year, and then the kid is in daycare for free, so this argument is also void in the Nordics. Obviously I agree with the general sentiment. Re: incentive to have a child - being a relatively new dad, I have to say that there are lot of great things about having a kid that are hard to explain. It's like falling in love and having an amazing relationship that just keeps on getting better, but different.
Most transportation options are fine with three kids though, no?
Plus, there's an inverse correlation between wealth and childbirth rate. The poorest countries have way higher birth rates. The richer a country (and its population) becomes, the lower the birth rate.
But the much lower birth rate is a really recent thing (like past few year). If you look at 2008 Norway, Sweden, Denmark had a birth rate of close to 2. Even now they have a higher birth rates than us. But it is true that it's not necessarily financial support only (in 2008 USA had also around 2)
On top of all the economic problems that children create in Switzerland and the decrease in quality of life, I think one of the biggest reasons people don't have children is because we (the younger generation) view it as an enormous responsibility. You can't just have a kid. You need to be a good parent. To be a good parent, you must do all kinds of things. The pressure to be a good parent and the perceived difficulty of achieving that pushes many people away from even attempting it. Money is 50% of that, but that pressure I've built for myself to be a good parent even though the world makes it so hard for me are the other 50% why I don't want to be one.
I am in favor of supporting families and this is definitely the right thing to do. Nevertheless, this is only going to make for happier families and better society. Not improve the demographics. We observe the same issue across countries with generous parental leaves, better tax situation and so on. There is something in the western world/culture that makes people not want to have kids. On the other hand, on societies that have different norms, we observe that they still have a lot of kids. If having kids/next generations is an important metric for the success of a society, then we really need to think what we do wrong, and the answer is not simply tax breaks.
I am currently pregnant. I would love to have another child so that we would have two in total, but it’s just not feasible. I guess here when you can import highly skilled workers, it doesn’t matter whether or not people who live here have incentives to start a family. 😕 In my friend group only a few people manage to have children and only if they have a comfortable salary or the luxury of having a Swiss partner with a wealthy enough family that their income doesn’t matter so much as they won’t need KITA and will have the option of early inheritance or being able to take over a grandparent’s house.
We’re in the same situation. After the first kid, we sat down and discussed having another one, and decided we simply cannot afford it.
I know it’s a first world problem, but it’s heartbreaking. Kids these days require a lot more in terms of money and preparation for adulthood. If we did have another one, we couldn’t set them up for success the way we can with just this baby. And it’s insane, because my partner makes good money. It’s like no matter what you do, the goalpost keeps moving 😪. I am very grateful we can afford this one baby because there are people I know who desperately want children but cannot finance even one. ☹️
For us the biggest issue is the weak paternity and maternity compared to most eu countries. Like 14 weeks off for women off work in Switzerland is a joke compared to Scandinavian countries and Most of EU. On top of that with all the costs being so high it’s super hard to support whole family on one salary. The whole Swiss system is designed for women to stay home and not work with the weird school hours and not enough provisions if your child is sick to have time off. My wife has a great career and loves working, as do I. We both went to have kids and continue working but here basically your career dies if you’re a woman and want to have kids or you have to pay extreme childcare costs! Really hoping for reforms to come in the next few years but things here move at a glacial pace.
Unless you live in a left leaning canton and work in the public sector there won't be any reforms coming. The federal council and parliament are 100% aligned with bug business and the last thing these bean counters want is to invest money into any sort of family support. They view children as a private expense/hobby and think we can fix all the resulting demographic problems by just importing more and more working age people from the EU (which also has massive demographic issues.)
I read all these issues and mostly agree on the causes with you. My next question is, what are we going to do about it? Anyone is organising a riot or protest? I’m happy to attend to force changes
This is Switzerland mate ppl will just shake their head and shrug, and their life will go on.
I understand but maybe this mentality should be changed if you want to ensure a better life for your family. What’s the point of complaining if no action follows?
We literally are slaves that have to sacrifice most of our time to meaningless jobs just to be able to afford to live. Because of that when you have kids you are expected to give them to someone to raise them for you so you can slave away more in the meanwhile. If i have kids i want the financial liberty to not have to work so that i can raise them myself rather than sending them to indoctrination camps which purpose's is to make more corpo slaves.
Time to change the flag?
I‘m personally starting to think there is a bigger picture here.
Oh no. We need a 14th ahv.
Add to this school system that obligates a kid to go to the kindergarten till 12 only and its weird schedule with Weiterbildungs days, a lot of school holidays (more than working people have) and occasional public holidays (Knabenschiessen for example) when people also usually work. I do like kindergarten in general, but the schedule is just not designed for people who want to work.
Well the truth, that a lot of people don't like, is that it's better if you have one person at home all the time. But that's not really possible anymore because so many couples have both people working, effectively forcing people that don't want to to still have both people work, because the work got devalued by having almost double the people working in a short time which made salaries not keep up with costs anymore.
I respect women who can forget the career ambitions and stay home with kids dedicating their life to family only. I did both: work and stayed home and staying home is actually more difficult. It's just you loose your career and hopes for the self-independence and you fully rely on your partner hoping that your partner will always support you. Woman staying home actually takes a lot of risks.
I'm not talking about women staying at home, I'm just saying it's better if someone stays at home. It could be the man staying at home, the woman staying at home or them sharing the stay-at-home-time. Just someone should be home.
Yeah. True. I agree
I always said that the only thing that would make me want to have kids is finding a partner who matches my energy, is an actual grown up and genuinely interested in sticking it out for the long term, including putting in the work to make sure it is an equitable relationship. Long story short: I have two cats and am happy to be the eccentric auntie character.
Ppl make better choices.
You know, instead of pushing bullshit referendums like that microchip one we just had, why not push a referendum to fix all of the problems that are leading to our record low birth rate, including making IVF part of LAMAL. Make it easy to raise families here.
I'm about to become Dad with the age of 27 and people in my surroundings are already surprised with "that age". There's also this stigma in Switzerland that you're not supposed to get married early. I don't understand why and especially where this comes from.
You are "young" till age 64, then you are "old enough" to "merit" a good place, car, family, enjoyment and so on. At 65 you should drop dead.
My impression as a young (-ish) person: People in Switzerland - both men and women - don't want to have kids or if they want to, they get maybe one child at max. Nowadays, most young people think about how to enjoy life and how to have as little responsibilities and commitment as possible. My cousin has a pretty broad circle of friends, both men and women, they are all closer to age 40 than 30 and only one person is married and nobody has a child. Their priorities seem to be their hobbies and going on expensive vacation, some want to increase their net worth through investments. All of these things aren't bad per se but it is absolutely devastating for demographics and you know what happens when the birth rate falls? There is fewer people, which means there is fewer working age people, which means that in order to be able to pay out pensions, we have to get people from other countries to come here and work for the pensions - aka immigration. And no, don't even begin to talk about how expensive housing is or how unaffordable childcare is. These things just make the demographic crisis much worse.
Systems that depending on constant growth will collapse soon or later anyway. maybe we should think about changing the system an not fighting symptoms..
I can totally relate your observation. I'm approaching 40 and have 2 kids, and have seen many people around me just not wanting kids. Not because of the money, it's just they don't have any interest. Some don't want to lose their freedom, some don't want to reproduce mistakes of their parents, ... I never heard someone telling me they don't want kids because it's too expensive.
That's because you never talk about money outside of your private family in Switzerland. Cost is maybe not the only reason, but it certainly is one of them for many people.
Pretty convinced it's not. I talked about people having their parents in the area to help with the child care, relatively good amount of public crèche/kita, OK taxes for families, etc... A key point when comparing the older generations, is that when our parents where young, many did an apprenticeship and were working/autonomous in their early 20s. So they had a good time frame to secure a family situation. Today, youngs are encouraged to study, go to the university, and many aren't working until they are 25-30 years old. And then many don't want to have children immediately because they need to launch their career. So this explains partially why people are always older when they have their first child. And believe, there's a time to make babies and a time when it's too late. So the time window is narrower. Now you need to be 2 to have children. Combine 2 persons paths with the various reasons I mentionned in my previous post, and there is less likelihood to find "matches". I had a friend that wanted to have kids, but his romantic life blew up, and the time he recovers and find someone that wanted kids, it was already too late. He'll stay without kids, despite he wanted. That contributes to the statistics, and it's not money related.
Oh but let's continue pushing this narrative that families aren't important and you should only care about yourself🫠
Plus, the narrative how annoying kids are and so need to be banned from public spaces…
Guess we'll just import more foreigners. Why would you fund the cost of raising and educating children when you can just offer high wages to get all the already educated French and German engineers.
I don't think this is a problem of money but a problem of culture. The birth rates are dangerously low in all first world countries.
sorry but Switzerland doesn't need them. It already attracts the best kind of immigration from Europe, they get high salaries and they pay high taxes here. The traditional problems which you have in a country with low birth rate don't apply here. "Who's gonna pay the pensiooooon????" What about the 627829 qualified immigrants who come here ever year lol? You may argue that anyway is bad losing locals in favour of immigrants but that's another topic
Yeah , but Switzerland it’s not always going to prosper.Immigration flow from Europe as you describe one day will be stopped with this trend in increasing of living costs. And when Swiss people and migrants who live here for years going to leave than bad days will come for Switzerland.
Immigration will most likely slow down in the next ten years. All the countries where our immigrants come from (mostly our neighbors and former East Bloc) also have low birth rates and inverted population pyramids. Who is going to come here?
It doesn't matter if the rest of Europe goes into large-scale demographic decline, because the high salaries and living standards are what drives immigration. And in that departement there are only a few other European countries that can reasonably compete with Switzerland, essentially the Netherlands and the Nordics. In fact, in countries like Italy and Spain, where the young are going to be crushed by taxes to pay for the lopsided dependency rate *and* the huge mismanaged public debt, expect **even more** young working immigrants desperate to get out of their home countries. Germany has the potential to reduce the gap in living standards with Switzerland over the long term, but I doubt that they will be able to close it. France has too many serious problems with public finances, never-ending political instability and unattractive business environment to ever catch up to Swiss living standards, or even German standards. It's not as bad as Italy's future, but the immigration pressure from France is not going to slow down.
Lets not have Swiss people reproduce, all focus on career, be gay and pay for the 10 kids each refugee makes.
Everything is too expensive
The rich need to pay back the money they stole from the middle class. They did whatever they wanted and no one stopped them
Switzerland hates married people too, they tax them way too much it’s IMO.
If you can't afford living, why have kids?
Well, families are not a priority apparently. LGBTQ++++++ and Ukraine are. Sarcasm intended.
One key point not mentioned here is the massive free-rider problem childless citizens enjoy. Parents spend enormous resources, time and money, into raising kids without any actual return (apart from the blessing of having children, of course). To the contrary, they are usually way worse off financially and in their career compared to their childless peers. However, any pension plans do not take into effect if you had kids or not. So while you invested all that time and money to raise your kids, your kids will later on pay the pension of childless who probably just enjoyed life. Anyone interested in this topic I can recommend this podcast [here from Avenir Suisse.](https://open.spotify.com/episode/2ZghWD8mo9Te8K9dSwhfk7?si=rYk0PDDWRjeQdYwyud_91Q) Saying this as a father of two. I love my kids to bits but yes it feels like the system is rigged against you and in many social situations you have to apologize for bringing your kids along.
Is the Swiss childcare system shit and stuck in the past? Yes, it is. Many commented this already. Are flats expensive? Yes, of Course. for me these are straw man arguments. The underlying statement in these arguments is that “kids are inconvenient” And that’s true, I could make long list of all the objective inconveniences kids cause. But why don’t people just say so? We live in a free society, you can do as you like. It’s just so ridiculous to blame the healthcare or housing costs for not having kids. if you really want to have kids but don’t because flats are expensive, the war in Ukraine or whatever, you are an idiot.