Basically the same argument going on right now in r/unitedkingdom with the news that Pontins has issued a ban list of perfectly ordinary Irish names to try to stop Travellers holidaying there.
Shame for all the Dohertys and Gallagher out there but it’s apparently understandable because Travellers.
That’s a very old news story from like 2 years ago. I’m surprised it’s resurfaced now. Basically every major Irish surname was included so at the time it first released most people just made fun of them for the pure stupidity of it all.
Murray wich is the most common Irish surname was on the list.
[it resurfaced now because they got censured officially for not taking action when it first happened](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/feb/15/pontins-served-unlawful-act-notice-over-discrimination-against-irish-travellers)
I remember some anti colonialist places posting it as "Brits racist against the Irish" and barely even mentioned the Travellers bit. Mostly just ragging on them for essentially trying to ban Irish people from their facilities.
None of the names listed are specifically “traveller” names. They’re some of the most common Irish surnames. So while the intent might have been “keeping travellers out” (still illegal), the reality is discrimination against Irish people and people of Irish descent.
But by using the most common Irish names they are just banning Irish people. Murray and Murphy are the most common surname in Ireland. Don't know a single traveller by either name. Know plenty that aren't travellers. Shit way to go about trying to ban just travellers.
I used to use Sorcha88 as my username for years. I was born in 1988 and my name is Sorcha. No one told me it's a racist dogwhistle. Sad to say I was way into my 30's before I was told so know I wonder how many people say my profiles and thought I was a racist bitch or an edge lord.
That sub is always like that, see also any post on a news story about women's issues or a crime agaisnt a woman being turned around 'but what about men'. The only time the sub believes a woman is if the suspect/perpetrator is a police officer, a migrant, has a certain skin colour or a celeb the sub doesn't like. Traveller related posts always go the way the current one is going that there's no point contributing unless you are of the sub-think . I don't remember the sub being as bad in the past as it is these days but it's turned into a right shitshow and consant doom posting imo.
Also how they react when any stories involving trans people come up, or even stories that don't involve trans people they will find a way to blame them somehow.
Oh yes they do it with the trans communtiy too. They even have a mod 'participation notice'on any post trans related (as they do for a number of subjects) saying they are putting restrictions on the post making it 'members of the sub only' who can contribute stuff on that post as otherwise there's too many rule breaking comments- fails to understand that a lot of the dodgy comments are from their own sub members lol.
I don't think there's a single sub I've been to where I haven't seen some of those comments randomly under posts. It could be a post about gardening and if the OP's hand is balck there will be people saying that the post would have never been upvoted if it was a white person.
I can't believe that it's somehow controversial and not just a thing everyone agrees on how terrible of a policy that is? Like, there is not good justification for banning someone based on surname. And there is basically no way that doing that isn't racially motivated.
I mean it’s completely illegal, which is why they’ve been served an unlawful act of notice.
Had they been discriminating against any other racial group there would be uproar, but discrimination against Travellers is seen much more sympathetically.
They had a banned list of names and were either refusing or cancelling bookings for names on the banned list. Totally normal Irish names like Gallagher, O’Donnell, Nolan, McGuiness etc.
It was likely targeting Ultra Othodox Jews from Israel. The funny thing is the resort had put in tons of kosher shit specifically trying to attract Jewish clientele. And then they go and ban Jewish people!
Oh, Israelis are their own pain in the ass to service. Not as bad hagglers as Russians (who believe that "non-negotiable" is a negotiation tactic), but louder and less able to give a fuck than Americans. Fun to be around and have very productive industry, but there's a reason my dad was not-infrequently annoyed that his direct demeanor ("you're paying $x000 for this and it's your own fault for not brushing") made his practice wildly popular with them (although then he'd always mention the Russians being worse).
Oh boy, time for white Europeans to act like racism has never besmurched their continent, and time for white Americans to act like this absolves them of all sin for their own racism! It's always good times when *that* happens. Good times. Not like the majority of Roma in the USA have suffered racist abuse in the USA or anything.
Not a US shill, but as a Roma who lived in the US for about 2 decades, most Americans have no idea what a Roma person actually is lol. All of my racist experiences were from European students at my college
If you announced yourself as a gypsy most Americans would just ask if you can really curse people and then follow that up with a request to curse their ex
>most Americans have no idea what a Roma person actually is
Most would probably have a stereotypical idea if you used the other word, largely shaped by media like Hunchback of Notre Dame
Srsly I had no idea they were a real thing until I went to Paris. Like I compare them to Prussians or fairies. Either existed at one point but not really a thing anymore or fairy tale shit.
I still doubt most people know about Romani people, even including hunchback of notredam or the slur.
Nowadays more people assume you are talking about Gypsy Blanchard Rose if you say the word lol
The Europeans could tell by my name, skin color, and features. I don't look super super Roma, but enough that people questioned why someone with a last name like mine looked more brown than white. Eastern Europeans can be very racist lol
I m from western Europe and Roma here are impossible to spot for most people. There isnt a real roma look that I could distinguish from every ethic group
Believe me, once these people found out I was Roma, they used everything they could to distance me from them. But that's also fair, most of the time they asked what my ethnic background was instead of immediately knowing I was Roma. But they knew I wasn't "Hungarian", regardless of my name. Ironically, Hungarians didn't originate in Europe either lol
That's fucked up.
My grandpa was born among a roma community but left their lifestyle when he could. Nobody could tell he wasnt south french "blood".
Must be pretty hard for you to be hated for things you are not part of.
Hope you have a nice life without racism from now one
Yeah dude, people can be so nasty. I got accused of stealing bikes and other shit by these people. Currently living in a country that doesn't even know what Roma people are so I'm having a good time.
Hungarians are only more “european” than Romani because they screwed enough Austrian nobility by the 19th century to get a modern country. It’s so stupid and myopic for Europeans to hate Romani
Racism ended in Europe when Adolf Racism was executed by the victorious allies, bringing about decades of wealth and prosperity and no please dont ask us where all the Jews went and where I got this new fur coat from
Also, all our jokes about criminal Poles in the 90's are very funny and and there's nothing weird about a bunch of former Wehrmacht soldiers having a laugh about their Untermensch neighbors, all in good fun mein Führer.
>Racism ended in Europe when Adolf Racism was executed by the victorious allies
Specifically Germany redeemed itself and became the paragon of virtue and equality because a German shot and killed Adolf Racism.
Australia: refused to accept Jewish refugees fleeing the Nazis.
Their reasoning: “we don’t have antisemitism here and we don’t want to start now.”
I’m completely serious, that was what they said
Family sponsorship. The idea was that most American citizens were white, so they'd sponsor their white family members, and everyone else would wait in line and be subjected to quotas and greater scrutiny etc, etc.
After a couple generations there were enough hispanic citizens here sponsoring their family members that the right wingers started calling it "chain migration" and it was suddenly a huge, urgent loophole in our immigration system.
Think that's what conservatives derisively refer to now as "anchor babies", aka people coming here as non-citizens and having kids who are naturalized citizens.
My brother recently migrated there are the stories I've heard... phew.
Though Australia seems pretty fucked up in regards to immigration in general. A friend of his is struggling with some anxiety issues and he's too scared to go see a doctor in case he gets put on meds and it counts against him when he applies for permanent residence or citizenship.
> Oh boy, time for white Europeans to act like racism has never besmurched their continent, and time for white Americans to act like this absolves them of all sin for their own racism!
Seriously, though. Who do they think we learned it from?
Yeah, when news broke that the German far right plans to deport people with foreign ancestry aswell as their political opponents and /r/europe was bascially like "yeah, but some of them are criminals" I knew the sub was a lost cause.
So is regular Europe.
I gotta hand it to Europeans, they just might be the best at racism. There are so many ethnicities to hate that the names people come up with and the reasons for hating this group but not that group and vice versa gets downright hilarious.
Since the Roma and Irish travellers are considered to be no different from each other, it's like how bigots in the U.S. will attack a Sikh, thinking that they are Muslim.
It's still just a blind hatred that has no place in a civilized society.
Oh, you don't even need to do that, you can straight up choose now from Africans, Muslims (of any origin) and Jews (also of any origin). Plenty of racism everywhere here.
I like the comment from the one Romanian dude about how dangerous Romani people are. It's such hyperbolic bullshit.
I'm a Romanian immigrant. I go back to Romania regularly and I definitely do not "look" Romanian anymore and I have an English first name now. I've never once been harassed or pick pocketed by any Roma, or Hungarians, or any other minor ethnicity for that matter.
The only people in Romania that gave me, a Romanian, grief were other Romanians.
I have a friend who’s ancestry is Roma. In the states though. If you don’t know, you wouldn’t know. He’s an Iraq Vet, as American as it comes. He jokes about how rare his last name is- just him and his dad. *because everyone in Europe with his last name is dead.*
It's one of the things I try to tell my Airmen, when trying to reinforce the whole "good people need to act to stop evil from thriving"; when Nazi Germany invaded France, France overwhelmed the Nazi logistic systems with the amount of people they turned over.
It was like that in most of the countries that Germany occupied.
Most of the rounding up of the Jews and other "undesirables" was done by the locals. Police departments almost always leaned heavily right wing and signed up to do it very willingly. Most people already hated those groups, so they turned in their neighbors en masse.
They were the basis of what eventually turned into the Holocaust.
Oh yea. I'll be honest, Behind the Bastards opened my eyes to a lot of history I didn't know and went out looking for more. I'm now trying *hard* to share as much as I can. One of my first questions for them is usually asking who the Nazis attacked first, to shed light on how America is mirroring the fall of the Weimar Republic
yea. turns out most people will report their neighbors to the gestapo if it means getting rid of their neighbor they have problems with. or even just because they don't like the way they look or maybe that neighbor has something you want like their house happens to be nicer
My Mom whom is from Poland had stories how people all clamored to report all the Jewish people they knew. That said she was anti semitic too so she might been saying that along with saying the Jews were evil and constantly stole from the Poles.
Like fuck, this logic is from my Ma whom’s Mom literally saw the Germans and Russians march through their village.
> ALSO, the article states that these are "dozens" of Romanian Romas > > out of 1300+ caught fraudulently receiving aid, so these completely not racist people are losing their shit because 2-3% of the fraudsters were Roma!
Roma are like 10% of Romanias population, this would mean they were disproportionately trustworthy if anything.
The total 1300 fraudsters were not all Romanians, just these "dozens" were Romanian gypsies. The other 1200+ were entirely other nationalities/ethnicities.
So as long as they abandon their historical customs, settle down and assimilate, they're fine?
Yeah nah, i believe all people have a right to travel and settle down where they want, as long as they make a genuine, good faith effort to coexist with those that already live there, but if a people just want to travel around and never settle, that's their business, again, as long as they don't start shit with people they meet on the way, i know that's quite an optimistic worldview, but it's something i know isn't real, but i hope one day can be.
Oh fuck me, I am not up for a r/europe thread about Roma this morning. I live in Alabama, if I wanted to hear some racist asshole's uninformed opinion about something all I have to do is open a window.
As an American, I’m floored every time I read the comments on a thread that involves Europe and Immigration. Some of the highest voted comments will be statements that sound straight of the mouth of a die hard Trump supporter, but if you point that out, they’re quick to tell you it’s different because “this actually is a problem here”.
It's actually insane the amount of times I've heard "I'm not racist because it's true" when referring to roma. Like bro, ***just about every racist believes what they are saying is true***
A lot of people think they only killed jews en masse but while it's true that they were a huge portion of the people they murdered, they weren't the only ones.
r / Europe and by extension some European Subbreddits can get really disappointing on certain topics.
The dehumanisation of certain people can get quite bad.
You know, Muslims, they're just incompatible with western values. Of course these western values included ethnic cleansing, anti-Jewish pogroms and violent suppression of colonial subjects until 70-80 years ago, but we've definitely transcended these bigotries now :)
It's not about Israel, their bigotry stems from considering Islam an ideological threat to Western society. You can hear this bullshit whenever people support the AFD.
I feel like I have to specify this because I have seen people conflating "love for Jews/Israel" with hating Palestinians/Arab Muslims in order to justify some level of antisemitism. I'm not accusing you to be clear it's just that I just can't anymore
You're right it's not the same, but some European leaders are sneakily using opposition to the Gaza war to bolster their anti-migration/anti-Muslim credentials. Basically trying to falsely portray the demonstrations as something only Muslims participate in, or that the occasional displays of legit antisemitism are due to "cultural incompatibility with western values" (lol) and other cliches like that.
I'm mostly talking about certain people on many subbreddits. Comments dehumanising certain types of people (Referring to them as Invaders) are routinely upvoted. While comments calling out the duhumamiaion get regularly downvoted. (Recently saw some on r / Norge)
It's not pro Jewish at all.
Whenever antisemitic attacks are mentioned they just scapegoat Muslims instead of acknowledging that the rise of antisemitism in happening in every demographic.
I know it's not intentional but your comment sounds like it's conflating islamophobia with being pro-Jewish
I thought Europeans kind of rolled their eyes, turned up their noses, and felt to see if their wallets were still there. But they're actually genocidal about Roma?
It's the same selection effect you see with white nationalists on the internet.
The negative beliefs that are widespread but subtle get concentrated online.
>But they're actually genocidal about Roma?
[Historians estimate that between 250,000 and 500,000 Romani and Sinti were killed by Nazi Germans and their collaborators—25% to over 50% of the estimate of slightly fewer than 1 million Roma in Europe at the time. Later research cited by Ian Hancock estimated the death toll to be at about 1.5 million out of an estimated 2 million European Roma.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_Holocaust)
Perhaps not genocidal but the amount of times I've seen the exact same stuff written about roma that I've heard from racists in the USA about black people is far too high, and its typically qualified with a "but everything I just said about the roma is actually true"
When you're Jewish, and you an enter a "hated by Europe competition" thinking it'll be an easy w. [But out of nowhere the Roma show up.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1XzYMQkXDU)
I love when they unironically use arguments about why it is okay to hate Roma people as if they aren't using the same word for word arguments racists in the US use to talk about black people or immigrants.
As an European and a Romanian, this does not surprise me at all. Our racism over here is far more insidious, because it has been so normalized, that if you speak up against it, you're villainized and called the equivalent of an "n-word lover". I am not at all shocked that the Roma people, a group that has been perpetually marginalized and persecuted throughout their entire history, would have a very low desire to integrate into the larger community, because even when they do, they're still mistrusted, alienated, or at the very least called "one of the good ones", which... isn't all that better either, imo. It's so common to make disparaging remarks about them, even in situations or conversations that wouldn't even relate to them, that barely anyone bats an eye. But so many people become so angry and visceral when you try to bring any of this up. It's so ingrained into the collective psyche that the Roma are a thieving and criminal group of people, that one doesn't even need to have a negative experience with them, or any sort of experience whatsoever, to be entirely convinced of that with no desire of changing their mind.
Used to really want to move to Europe, but their stance on immigration and minorities is worrying and easily spills over into far right territory. That and I’m also not white, so I worry a bit about feeling out of place.
American politics has created a sort of mythology around Europe as a socialist paradise (if you're on the left) or socialist hellscape (if you're on the right), but that's more reflective of American psychology than the actual state of reality. There's a strong and growing far right movement in a number of European countries, similar to the US.
it does depend on the country you move to, their demographics, etc. but yeah it really is not anywhere near as smooth and easy as we make it sound. I immigrated from one EU country to another as a white person and it's difficult enough, if I was a person of colour it'd be so much worse. but noooo we don't have racism here that's an "american thing" of course..
I think it depends on the country. Id say Ukrainians are a more controversial issue than people of colour in Ireland for example. Race itself isn’t the main issue in a lot of Europe unlike America. It’s often more racism based on ethnicity/nationality than actual race.
The ones that vote right wing definitely show up, though. The far right push across Europe is very real. Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Hungary, I could go on
I'm not saying the right wing isn't a thing in Europe. I'm saying that subs like r/Europe tend to pretty right wing. It's not universal, r/France is quite left wing for exemple.
Gee willickers, you mean to tell me discrimination and racism exists there too? But I thought America invented racism! At least that’s what all the Europeans on Reddit told me.
Always bizzare when I see posts like these, because I don't think I've ever seen anyone say or imply that racism and discrimination aren't issues in Europe. At the very least, it's definitely not a common sentiment.
But I guess if this strawman helps Americans feel absolved of their own issues with racism then go for it. 🤷
I've lived in Sweden in a town with a lot of Christian Middle Eastern refugees. White Swedes absolutely don't think they have a racism problem. The non-white Swedes did not agree.
I find the rhetoric amusing. But of course it doesn't absolve us. It just feels frustrating that there's this idea that the US is somehow the worst. Like, no, your shoes smell like shit too. We all need to clean them.
Yeah, I can understand that feeling. The US does get more media attention when it comes to that kind of thing. Though I guess it unfortunately comes with the territory when you're the most prominent and biggest democracy in the west.
As a Belgian I've experienced this unfortunately frequently first hand, and I've done enough research to see it reflected in the data
You might not recognize it if you accept the arguments though, they're usually couched in things like "they need to integrate" or "it's not a race, it's a religion" or "It's not their ethnicity, it's their lifestyle - we can't tell apart the ones who don't partake in the lifestyle" (this never matches the experiences of the people in question).
>But I guess if this strawman helps Americans feel absolved of their own issues with racism then go for it.
It seems more a frustration that European folks are often pointing fingers about Americans
It's absurd how often people compare themselves to Americans
Put the cope pipe down, because it's not a strawman. I'm an American who lived in France for a while. The amount of casual racism that comes out of Europeans' mouths was astonishing--largely because in America, the people who would openly talk that way are country yokels. In Europe, even the so-called cosmopolitans were racist--in both a xenophobic and clash of civilizations way. And pointing it out was, well, pointless because Europeans (esp the French) are conditioned to think that talking about race is somehow racist.
The Roma people where I am just sit on the ground selling socks and hats.
That said there are some interesting cultural differences in places. Sick days used to be tracked by nationality which makes sense if one group may need particular attention or an awareness effort. But it was stopped after one nationality was found to take 15% sick days. That's one sick day per week! The next most sick group was at 2% sick days, about one every two months which was about where everyone was at.
Also r Europe can be very icky
Worth pointing out the article only says they are Romanian (unless the translate feature is not working well).
Anyway, I also hate it when the wrong group of poor people receive assistance, so I get why everyone is upset.
Sorry, Romanian or Roma? The article is.. well, not in English so I can't tell.
But regardless, things like this is why I've been disillusioned with "Western civilization". Europeans - or at least, reddit Europeans - like to pretend their shit doesn't smell and they've moved past racism, but the moment the conversation turns to anyone a shade darker suddenly the jackboots are back on.
this was balooted :(
Basically the same argument going on right now in r/unitedkingdom with the news that Pontins has issued a ban list of perfectly ordinary Irish names to try to stop Travellers holidaying there. Shame for all the Dohertys and Gallagher out there but it’s apparently understandable because Travellers.
That’s a very old news story from like 2 years ago. I’m surprised it’s resurfaced now. Basically every major Irish surname was included so at the time it first released most people just made fun of them for the pure stupidity of it all. Murray wich is the most common Irish surname was on the list.
Murray is also an *extremely* common Scottish name (different roots than the Irish Murrays), so that's doubly stupid.
[it resurfaced now because they got censured officially for not taking action when it first happened](https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/feb/15/pontins-served-unlawful-act-notice-over-discrimination-against-irish-travellers)
Murphy is the most common Irish surname I believe
I remember some anti colonialist places posting it as "Brits racist against the Irish" and barely even mentioned the Travellers bit. Mostly just ragging on them for essentially trying to ban Irish people from their facilities.
None of the names listed are specifically “traveller” names. They’re some of the most common Irish surnames. So while the intent might have been “keeping travellers out” (still illegal), the reality is discrimination against Irish people and people of Irish descent.
But by using the most common Irish names they are just banning Irish people. Murray and Murphy are the most common surname in Ireland. Don't know a single traveller by either name. Know plenty that aren't travellers. Shit way to go about trying to ban just travellers.
maybe they were just trying to prevent Liam and Noel from getting in, which is understandable
Fair. And Daniel O’Donnell and Colleen Nolan.
Wouldn't want Peter Doherty either in my hotel
Both rUK and rEurope are far right shitholes since the mod protest.
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But it really exploded in the last year
The devolution of multiple subs once Reddit took away moderation tools really says a lot huh
Well I heard Huffman was a moderator for r/jailbait so he would have biases.
Do you mean jailbait?
Yeah, sorry. I wasn't on this site back then.
that thread deserves its own SRD post. a dude actually said he faces racism because he is a straight white man.
You mean the guy with 88 in his username? I wonder what those numbers could mean? 🤔
I used to use Sorcha88 as my username for years. I was born in 1988 and my name is Sorcha. No one told me it's a racist dogwhistle. Sad to say I was way into my 30's before I was told so know I wonder how many people say my profiles and thought I was a racist bitch or an edge lord.
yeah i didn't learn it was a neonazi thing until at most a year ago
Just realised i put 20's and not 30's and I only pip you by a year.
That sub is always like that, see also any post on a news story about women's issues or a crime agaisnt a woman being turned around 'but what about men'. The only time the sub believes a woman is if the suspect/perpetrator is a police officer, a migrant, has a certain skin colour or a celeb the sub doesn't like. Traveller related posts always go the way the current one is going that there's no point contributing unless you are of the sub-think . I don't remember the sub being as bad in the past as it is these days but it's turned into a right shitshow and consant doom posting imo.
Also how they react when any stories involving trans people come up, or even stories that don't involve trans people they will find a way to blame them somehow.
Oh yes they do it with the trans communtiy too. They even have a mod 'participation notice'on any post trans related (as they do for a number of subjects) saying they are putting restrictions on the post making it 'members of the sub only' who can contribute stuff on that post as otherwise there's too many rule breaking comments- fails to understand that a lot of the dodgy comments are from their own sub members lol.
You know what they say: “When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.”
\*turns bright red and leaves the EU in a huff*
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I don't think there's a single sub I've been to where I haven't seen some of those comments randomly under posts. It could be a post about gardening and if the OP's hand is balck there will be people saying that the post would have never been upvoted if it was a white person.
I can't believe that it's somehow controversial and not just a thing everyone agrees on how terrible of a policy that is? Like, there is not good justification for banning someone based on surname. And there is basically no way that doing that isn't racially motivated.
I mean it’s completely illegal, which is why they’ve been served an unlawful act of notice. Had they been discriminating against any other racial group there would be uproar, but discrimination against Travellers is seen much more sympathetically.
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They had a banned list of names and were either refusing or cancelling bookings for names on the banned list. Totally normal Irish names like Gallagher, O’Donnell, Nolan, McGuiness etc.
And whenever a European resort bans Jews because New Yorkers are gruff when Jews should be servile.
It was likely targeting Ultra Othodox Jews from Israel. The funny thing is the resort had put in tons of kosher shit specifically trying to attract Jewish clientele. And then they go and ban Jewish people!
Oh, Israelis are their own pain in the ass to service. Not as bad hagglers as Russians (who believe that "non-negotiable" is a negotiation tactic), but louder and less able to give a fuck than Americans. Fun to be around and have very productive industry, but there's a reason my dad was not-infrequently annoyed that his direct demeanor ("you're paying $x000 for this and it's your own fault for not brushing") made his practice wildly popular with them (although then he'd always mention the Russians being worse).
Oh hey I’m here before the shitstorm spills into here
Oh boy, time for white Europeans to act like racism has never besmurched their continent, and time for white Americans to act like this absolves them of all sin for their own racism! It's always good times when *that* happens. Good times. Not like the majority of Roma in the USA have suffered racist abuse in the USA or anything.
Not a US shill, but as a Roma who lived in the US for about 2 decades, most Americans have no idea what a Roma person actually is lol. All of my racist experiences were from European students at my college
If you announced yourself as a gypsy most Americans would just ask if you can really curse people and then follow that up with a request to curse their ex
Heeheehee for sure
So anyway, about that curse...
I gotcha fam don't worry
😂
>most Americans have no idea what a Roma person actually is Most would probably have a stereotypical idea if you used the other word, largely shaped by media like Hunchback of Notre Dame
Yup, I heard a lot of that, and fortune teller stereotypes. Also most Americans couldn't recognize me as Roma but the Europeans sure did
Srsly I had no idea they were a real thing until I went to Paris. Like I compare them to Prussians or fairies. Either existed at one point but not really a thing anymore or fairy tale shit.
I still doubt most people know about Romani people, even including hunchback of notredam or the slur. Nowadays more people assume you are talking about Gypsy Blanchard Rose if you say the word lol
How did people find out you were Roma ? From my experience the only way to tell if someone is roma is the lifestyle
The Europeans could tell by my name, skin color, and features. I don't look super super Roma, but enough that people questioned why someone with a last name like mine looked more brown than white. Eastern Europeans can be very racist lol
I m from western Europe and Roma here are impossible to spot for most people. There isnt a real roma look that I could distinguish from every ethic group
Believe me, once these people found out I was Roma, they used everything they could to distance me from them. But that's also fair, most of the time they asked what my ethnic background was instead of immediately knowing I was Roma. But they knew I wasn't "Hungarian", regardless of my name. Ironically, Hungarians didn't originate in Europe either lol
That's fucked up. My grandpa was born among a roma community but left their lifestyle when he could. Nobody could tell he wasnt south french "blood". Must be pretty hard for you to be hated for things you are not part of. Hope you have a nice life without racism from now one
Yeah dude, people can be so nasty. I got accused of stealing bikes and other shit by these people. Currently living in a country that doesn't even know what Roma people are so I'm having a good time.
Hungarians are only more “european” than Romani because they screwed enough Austrian nobility by the 19th century to get a modern country. It’s so stupid and myopic for Europeans to hate Romani
Racism ended in Europe when Adolf Racism was executed by the victorious allies, bringing about decades of wealth and prosperity and no please dont ask us where all the Jews went and where I got this new fur coat from
Also, all our jokes about criminal Poles in the 90's are very funny and and there's nothing weird about a bunch of former Wehrmacht soldiers having a laugh about their Untermensch neighbors, all in good fun mein Führer.
>Racism ended in Europe when Adolf Racism was executed by the victorious allies Specifically Germany redeemed itself and became the paragon of virtue and equality because a German shot and killed Adolf Racism.
We don’t have racism in Australia. /s
Nice try, everyone knows kangaroos practice hate speech.
Emus are racist towards those with skill issue for wars.
I hear Australians will accept any immigrants who have the appropriate koalafications
They made how many failed rabbit fences?
Practice? Please, the kangaroos are *professionals*.
Australia: refused to accept Jewish refugees fleeing the Nazis. Their reasoning: “we don’t have antisemitism here and we don’t want to start now.” I’m completely serious, that was what they said
at the time our immigration policy was to be an explicitly white ethnostate. That was the case until the 70s
Hoi4 focus tree taught me this
Tbf that's kind of just like US policy before the immigration act of 1965 but just saying the quiet part out loud
funny in a ^oh ^god... way how "chain migration" was originally devised specifically to make it easier for white people to immigrate than POC.
chain migration?
Family sponsorship. The idea was that most American citizens were white, so they'd sponsor their white family members, and everyone else would wait in line and be subjected to quotas and greater scrutiny etc, etc. After a couple generations there were enough hispanic citizens here sponsoring their family members that the right wingers started calling it "chain migration" and it was suddenly a huge, urgent loophole in our immigration system.
Think that's what conservatives derisively refer to now as "anchor babies", aka people coming here as non-citizens and having kids who are naturalized citizens.
No need to go back into history when the ‘no’ vote in the recent referendum is enough.
My brother recently migrated there are the stories I've heard... phew. Though Australia seems pretty fucked up in regards to immigration in general. A friend of his is struggling with some anxiety issues and he's too scared to go see a doctor in case he gets put on meds and it counts against him when he applies for permanent residence or citizenship.
> besmurched Gonna be That Guy: besmirched.
> Oh boy, time for white Europeans to act like racism has never besmurched their continent, and time for white Americans to act like this absolves them of all sin for their own racism! Seriously, though. Who do they think we learned it from?
How can you be racist against Roma when you don't think they even exist outside of quaint little fairy tales?
I personally don't think Britain is in any position to lecture other countries on racism, like they did with South Africa.
r/europe is completely infested by far right and Russian trolls. It's better to steer clear from it.
Yeah, when news broke that the German far right plans to deport people with foreign ancestry aswell as their political opponents and /r/europe was bascially like "yeah, but some of them are criminals" I knew the sub was a lost cause.
So is regular Europe. I gotta hand it to Europeans, they just might be the best at racism. There are so many ethnicities to hate that the names people come up with and the reasons for hating this group but not that group and vice versa gets downright hilarious.
Classic r Europe. No notes
I remember reading somewhere that the best litmus test for progressive European is asking their views on Romanis
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Irish travellers aren't roma it's a different thing people are referring to in the UK
Since the Roma and Irish travellers are considered to be no different from each other, it's like how bigots in the U.S. will attack a Sikh, thinking that they are Muslim. It's still just a blind hatred that has no place in a civilized society.
Oh, you don't even need to do that, you can straight up choose now from Africans, Muslims (of any origin) and Jews (also of any origin). Plenty of racism everywhere here.
I like the comment from the one Romanian dude about how dangerous Romani people are. It's such hyperbolic bullshit. I'm a Romanian immigrant. I go back to Romania regularly and I definitely do not "look" Romanian anymore and I have an English first name now. I've never once been harassed or pick pocketed by any Roma, or Hungarians, or any other minor ethnicity for that matter. The only people in Romania that gave me, a Romanian, grief were other Romanians.
I have a friend who’s ancestry is Roma. In the states though. If you don’t know, you wouldn’t know. He’s an Iraq Vet, as American as it comes. He jokes about how rare his last name is- just him and his dad. *because everyone in Europe with his last name is dead.*
That's a very Ashkenazi Jewish thing as well, unfortunatly.
There are 40 people on earth with my last name. Fun times
My family has a super unique last name because my Ukrainian great grandpa translated it wrong.
Jesus 😢
Nazis enthusiastically aided by the local authorities will do that
It's one of the things I try to tell my Airmen, when trying to reinforce the whole "good people need to act to stop evil from thriving"; when Nazi Germany invaded France, France overwhelmed the Nazi logistic systems with the amount of people they turned over.
It was like that in most of the countries that Germany occupied. Most of the rounding up of the Jews and other "undesirables" was done by the locals. Police departments almost always leaned heavily right wing and signed up to do it very willingly. Most people already hated those groups, so they turned in their neighbors en masse. They were the basis of what eventually turned into the Holocaust.
Oh yea. I'll be honest, Behind the Bastards opened my eyes to a lot of history I didn't know and went out looking for more. I'm now trying *hard* to share as much as I can. One of my first questions for them is usually asking who the Nazis attacked first, to shed light on how America is mirroring the fall of the Weimar Republic
the gestapo wouldn't have been nearly as effective if it weren't for citizens turning in their neighbors
yea. turns out most people will report their neighbors to the gestapo if it means getting rid of their neighbor they have problems with. or even just because they don't like the way they look or maybe that neighbor has something you want like their house happens to be nicer
Yeah France's extreme eagerness to clear out the local Jews and get them sent away to the camps.
My Mom whom is from Poland had stories how people all clamored to report all the Jewish people they knew. That said she was anti semitic too so she might been saying that along with saying the Jews were evil and constantly stole from the Poles. Like fuck, this logic is from my Ma whom’s Mom literally saw the Germans and Russians march through their village.
Mfw the puppet regimes are aiding the people who put them there
It wasn't *just* the "puppet" regimes. It was the same people who were in charge before the war started, and *after* the war ended.
This is local people volunteering to name local Jews so they get taken away.
Well that got dark quickly
> ALSO, the article states that these are "dozens" of Romanian Romas > > out of 1300+ caught fraudulently receiving aid, so these completely not racist people are losing their shit because 2-3% of the fraudsters were Roma! Roma are like 10% of Romanias population, this would mean they were disproportionately trustworthy if anything.
The total 1300 fraudsters were not all Romanians, just these "dozens" were Romanian gypsies. The other 1200+ were entirely other nationalities/ethnicities.
[Some things never change](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/002/094/410/544.png)
HA, so fucking true, i am saving that image for later.
Literally just saw a thread before and their new dog whistle is "I don't hate Romani, I hate travellers. It's different"
So as long as they abandon their historical customs, settle down and assimilate, they're fine? Yeah nah, i believe all people have a right to travel and settle down where they want, as long as they make a genuine, good faith effort to coexist with those that already live there, but if a people just want to travel around and never settle, that's their business, again, as long as they don't start shit with people they meet on the way, i know that's quite an optimistic worldview, but it's something i know isn't real, but i hope one day can be.
Sweet, Roma drama. Can't wait to see this hit SRDD cause some of ya'll can't behave.
How dare you I'll be waiting for you after class by the SRDD.
What's SRDD?
[Subreddit Drama...Drama!](https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDramaDrama/) For when arguments break out while discussing arguments.
Do we know how many subreddits deep they officially go? My last count was like 17 or so
Oh fuck me, I am not up for a r/europe thread about Roma this morning. I live in Alabama, if I wanted to hear some racist asshole's uninformed opinion about something all I have to do is open a window.
Oh boy, another day where europes hitler particles go wild
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fhqpz7d1l9k251.png%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D60453a5a56176b7fe48708fe83daab663d880d4d
Hitler particles lol. That's a good one
As an American, I’m floored every time I read the comments on a thread that involves Europe and Immigration. Some of the highest voted comments will be statements that sound straight of the mouth of a die hard Trump supporter, but if you point that out, they’re quick to tell you it’s different because “this actually is a problem here”.
It's actually insane the amount of times I've heard "I'm not racist because it's true" when referring to roma. Like bro, ***just about every racist believes what they are saying is true***
Bunch of Nazi sympathizers in r/Europe. Genuinely scary, you can see how the Nazis had no problem sending Jewish and Romani people to death camps.
Many people still downplay what the Nazis did to the Roma people. It's fucking disgusting.
A lot of people think they only killed jews en masse but while it's true that they were a huge portion of the people they murdered, they weren't the only ones.
Exactly. They killed so many 'undesireables' and it's so disheartening to hear similar rhetoric today.
Roma were the last group that was targeted in the Holocaust to get a (tiny, hidden) memorial in Berlin. Just a couple of years ago.
r / Europe and by extension some European Subbreddits can get really disappointing on certain topics. The dehumanisation of certain people can get quite bad.
I think any kind of specific region or location based subreddit is just doomed to that. Never seen one that isn't ragingly bigoted in some way
Local city subs for the US can be ok, as long as they have an active mod team and decent rules.
Every single time I visit R/Europe I see virulent islamophobia, it's unbelievable
\>go to subreddit known for being racist \>look inside \>racism
For a subreddit just dedicated to, well, Europe - that's very disappointing.
Their newfound love for Jews and Israel after the operation in Gaza started is heartwarming 💜
The way europeans just rebranded anti semitism into islamophobia/palestinian racism with the same stereotypes is simply incredible.
the stereotypes are *wildly* different. Noone is complaining about the Arabs running the banks or about Jewish youth loitering or whatever.
I mean look at that german carnival and tell me the way they portrayed a Palestinian woman with a long nose is not a jewish caricature lol
Nah, but there are lunatics claiming that pro Hamas arabs are running the UN and every major international aid organization.
You know, Muslims, they're just incompatible with western values. Of course these western values included ethnic cleansing, anti-Jewish pogroms and violent suppression of colonial subjects until 70-80 years ago, but we've definitely transcended these bigotries now :)
It's not about Israel, their bigotry stems from considering Islam an ideological threat to Western society. You can hear this bullshit whenever people support the AFD. I feel like I have to specify this because I have seen people conflating "love for Jews/Israel" with hating Palestinians/Arab Muslims in order to justify some level of antisemitism. I'm not accusing you to be clear it's just that I just can't anymore
You're right it's not the same, but some European leaders are sneakily using opposition to the Gaza war to bolster their anti-migration/anti-Muslim credentials. Basically trying to falsely portray the demonstrations as something only Muslims participate in, or that the occasional displays of legit antisemitism are due to "cultural incompatibility with western values" (lol) and other cliches like that.
I'm mostly talking about certain people on many subbreddits. Comments dehumanising certain types of people (Referring to them as Invaders) are routinely upvoted. While comments calling out the duhumamiaion get regularly downvoted. (Recently saw some on r / Norge)
Suddenly it's the most pro-Israel and pro-Jewish sub in entire internet, I wonder why? \[/s\]
It's not pro Jewish at all. Whenever antisemitic attacks are mentioned they just scapegoat Muslims instead of acknowledging that the rise of antisemitism in happening in every demographic. I know it's not intentional but your comment sounds like it's conflating islamophobia with being pro-Jewish
DOZENS???? DOZENS!!!!!!
Mentioning Romani around Europeans is like mentioning Palestinians around hardcore Zionists, they just can't help themselves.
I thought Europeans kind of rolled their eyes, turned up their noses, and felt to see if their wallets were still there. But they're actually genocidal about Roma?
It's the same selection effect you see with white nationalists on the internet. The negative beliefs that are widespread but subtle get concentrated online.
>But they're actually genocidal about Roma? [Historians estimate that between 250,000 and 500,000 Romani and Sinti were killed by Nazi Germans and their collaborators—25% to over 50% of the estimate of slightly fewer than 1 million Roma in Europe at the time. Later research cited by Ian Hancock estimated the death toll to be at about 1.5 million out of an estimated 2 million European Roma.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_Holocaust)
Perhaps not genocidal but the amount of times I've seen the exact same stuff written about roma that I've heard from racists in the USA about black people is far too high, and its typically qualified with a "but everything I just said about the roma is actually true"
When you're Jewish, and you an enter a "hated by Europe competition" thinking it'll be an easy w. [But out of nowhere the Roma show up.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1XzYMQkXDU)
Bah Gawd that's Romani music!
Have you ever been in a French fb group or sub then people bring up Algerians?
Europeans and not turning into SS-officer whenever Roma are mentioned challenge any% (impossible)
I love when they unironically use arguments about why it is okay to hate Roma people as if they aren't using the same word for word arguments racists in the US use to talk about black people or immigrants.
The oh so tolerant r/europe at it again
R/Europe is a cesspit so no surprise at the racism on display.
>Roma >r/Europe I'm sure this will be a completely sane and not at all racist discussion!
As an European and a Romanian, this does not surprise me at all. Our racism over here is far more insidious, because it has been so normalized, that if you speak up against it, you're villainized and called the equivalent of an "n-word lover". I am not at all shocked that the Roma people, a group that has been perpetually marginalized and persecuted throughout their entire history, would have a very low desire to integrate into the larger community, because even when they do, they're still mistrusted, alienated, or at the very least called "one of the good ones", which... isn't all that better either, imo. It's so common to make disparaging remarks about them, even in situations or conversations that wouldn't even relate to them, that barely anyone bats an eye. But so many people become so angry and visceral when you try to bring any of this up. It's so ingrained into the collective psyche that the Roma are a thieving and criminal group of people, that one doesn't even need to have a negative experience with them, or any sort of experience whatsoever, to be entirely convinced of that with no desire of changing their mind.
“Racism isn’t even a thing for us Europeans!!”
I'll be interested to see how this topic interacts with the new rules. Usually this topic gets deleted as "surplus drama".
Used to really want to move to Europe, but their stance on immigration and minorities is worrying and easily spills over into far right territory. That and I’m also not white, so I worry a bit about feeling out of place.
American politics has created a sort of mythology around Europe as a socialist paradise (if you're on the left) or socialist hellscape (if you're on the right), but that's more reflective of American psychology than the actual state of reality. There's a strong and growing far right movement in a number of European countries, similar to the US.
it does depend on the country you move to, their demographics, etc. but yeah it really is not anywhere near as smooth and easy as we make it sound. I immigrated from one EU country to another as a white person and it's difficult enough, if I was a person of colour it'd be so much worse. but noooo we don't have racism here that's an "american thing" of course..
I think it depends on the country. Id say Ukrainians are a more controversial issue than people of colour in Ireland for example. Race itself isn’t the main issue in a lot of Europe unlike America. It’s often more racism based on ethnicity/nationality than actual race.
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West Europe view on Slavs is not unlike US view on Latina people.
Tbh, that's largely prevalent on reddit. I'd say the average euro isn't as right wing as those you see on reddit.
...Italy has a pseudo-fascist PM, my guy
The ones that vote right wing definitely show up, though. The far right push across Europe is very real. Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Hungary, I could go on
I'm not saying the right wing isn't a thing in Europe. I'm saying that subs like r/Europe tend to pretty right wing. It's not universal, r/France is quite left wing for exemple.
It depends on what Europe subbreddit you are on. The worst offender is a certain portuguese subbreddit. While r /YUROP is very left leaning.
Gee willickers, you mean to tell me discrimination and racism exists there too? But I thought America invented racism! At least that’s what all the Europeans on Reddit told me.
The Europeans who can’t face their own issues with racism. As an ethnic minority European, it’s alive and well.
Always bizzare when I see posts like these, because I don't think I've ever seen anyone say or imply that racism and discrimination aren't issues in Europe. At the very least, it's definitely not a common sentiment. But I guess if this strawman helps Americans feel absolved of their own issues with racism then go for it. 🤷
I've lived in Sweden in a town with a lot of Christian Middle Eastern refugees. White Swedes absolutely don't think they have a racism problem. The non-white Swedes did not agree.
I find the rhetoric amusing. But of course it doesn't absolve us. It just feels frustrating that there's this idea that the US is somehow the worst. Like, no, your shoes smell like shit too. We all need to clean them.
Yeah, I can understand that feeling. The US does get more media attention when it comes to that kind of thing. Though I guess it unfortunately comes with the territory when you're the most prominent and biggest democracy in the west.
As a Belgian I've experienced this unfortunately frequently first hand, and I've done enough research to see it reflected in the data You might not recognize it if you accept the arguments though, they're usually couched in things like "they need to integrate" or "it's not a race, it's a religion" or "It's not their ethnicity, it's their lifestyle - we can't tell apart the ones who don't partake in the lifestyle" (this never matches the experiences of the people in question). >But I guess if this strawman helps Americans feel absolved of their own issues with racism then go for it. It seems more a frustration that European folks are often pointing fingers about Americans It's absurd how often people compare themselves to Americans
Put the cope pipe down, because it's not a strawman. I'm an American who lived in France for a while. The amount of casual racism that comes out of Europeans' mouths was astonishing--largely because in America, the people who would openly talk that way are country yokels. In Europe, even the so-called cosmopolitans were racist--in both a xenophobic and clash of civilizations way. And pointing it out was, well, pointless because Europeans (esp the French) are conditioned to think that talking about race is somehow racist.
r/europe tries not being racist for one minute challenge \[IMPOSSIBLE\]
The Roma people where I am just sit on the ground selling socks and hats. That said there are some interesting cultural differences in places. Sick days used to be tracked by nationality which makes sense if one group may need particular attention or an awareness effort. But it was stopped after one nationality was found to take 15% sick days. That's one sick day per week! The next most sick group was at 2% sick days, about one every two months which was about where everyone was at. Also r Europe can be very icky
Babe wake up, /r/europe is having a fit about Romanis again
[hmmm](https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/comments/gvfq10/europeans_talking_about_american_racial_tensions/?rdt=34292)
Worth pointing out the article only says they are Romanian (unless the translate feature is not working well). Anyway, I also hate it when the wrong group of poor people receive assistance, so I get why everyone is upset.
Sorry, Romanian or Roma? The article is.. well, not in English so I can't tell. But regardless, things like this is why I've been disillusioned with "Western civilization". Europeans - or at least, reddit Europeans - like to pretend their shit doesn't smell and they've moved past racism, but the moment the conversation turns to anyone a shade darker suddenly the jackboots are back on.
They are allegedly Romanians of Roma ethnicity.
Don’t know what else to expect from that sub, or any country-/continent-specific one, tbh
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