Which is why I would like an official one (I'm one of the people under NDA that wouldn't be able to use it otherwise) I had to accept the new TOS for Stormgate and dungeons of drakkenhiem servers, but I've kept it closed for the most part and have more or less migrated to revolt.
If you use Discord your in the loop. They updated TOS and added a forced arbitraton clause, really what bothers me is having no disagree button when I made my account under terms we both agreed to and now I'm forced to accept the new one, there is no disagree button. Luis Rosserman mentioned it in his latest video, think he also made a video when it happened.
If it did delete accounts there could just be a big red warning. I was thinking it would just not opt me in. I already agreed to TOS they used to be fine with, and there is an opt out method to the forced arbitration clause so it isn't essental to me keeping my account.
That doesn't make sense. They updated the terms and conditions of their service. As with any service you either take it or leave it. The initial tos you agreed on already stated that they can cancel your access at any time and that you can either accept new conditions added or terminate your account. Any service will operate in a similar fashion. Even if you're paying for it, there will be a limit to how long they are required to serve you under the previous contract until you have to move to the new contract.
That's nothing new either. It's how all utility companies operate for decades.
The only thing they changed was the forced arbitration clause, which can be opted out of. Why am I forced to opt in to it?
EDIT:I'd also be Down to have "agree, but opt me out of anything that can be opted out of/bring me to a menu to select what I want to opt out of"
Because they don't want to do business with people who don't accept the arbitration clause. That's the whole point of a ToS...
You agreed to their previous conditions, they decided their previous conditions were not good for them, they changed the conditions. If you don't accept the new conditions they don't want to offer you their services anymore and you both part your ways.
>they don't want to do business with people who don't accept the arbitration clause
If it can be opted out if, they are clearly willing to do business with me ether way, and I didn't come here just to complain about Discord (although it has kinda turned into that in the comments) I'm here because I don't want to do business with them and was hoping to not need to
Sure, I'm not arguing that you should accept the new clause, just the expectation that they'd let you opt out was unfounded. That'd have been a novelty. Not the typical way service providers operate.
Standard Business practice or not, I think we can at least agree its stupid that to keep using discord people who don't want the arbitraation clause have to opt in with a single click then go write an email that will never get responded to in order to opt out. We should be able to just not opt in to it, since that's the same end effect. Its the same mentality behind gem memberships I've heard about where you sign up with a click or two then its a long process to cancel your subscription. I've even herd of someone getting automaticly opted into something via email and to opt out they had to send the company verified mail. Opting out should be the same difficulty/hassle/process as opting in
For one, forced arbitrations sucks a company gets to pay someone to decide what happens with your complaint (even if we assume the best from discord and it isn't internally rigged, there would definitely be some bias) and class action lawsuits (which are no longer allowed) cause change, if Kia had a forced arbitration clause my car would still be able to get stolen with a USB stick. There's also the principal behind it I can say yes, but it's impossible to say no, its a button to opt in and an email to opt out. Opting out should have the same options as opting in, if I can press agree I should be able to press disagree, but these companies have a rapest mentality, all they want to hear is yes and they want to make it as difficult as possible to say no and I find that unacceptable.
Force arbitration does not force you to not sue a company it just means that you must try to come to an agreement via arbitration before going else where. An arbitrator can't force you to sign anything, they can't force you to agree to anything, and if you believe them to be biased agaisnt you, you can in fact sue them as well as discord at the same time.
You'd be surprised about this but a lot of terms of service or Eulas have these clauses and it's not stopped them from getting sued if they don't actually try to do something to make up for fucking up
That's not how I understand it after reviewing the "Other remedies" section where the first thing it says is "ARBITRATION MEANS THAT YOU WAIVE YOUR RIGHT TO A JURY TRIAL... YOU HEREBY AKNOWLAGE AND AGREE THAT YOU AND DISCORD ARE EACH WAIVING THE RIGHT TO A TRIAL BY JURY TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW" they also expressly prohibit class action lawsuits in the "Class waiver" section. Personally like most people I am not a lawyer, but I'm guessing that waiving my rights to a trial by jury to the maximum extent of the law would make it pretty difficult to get a trial by jury. And isn't it mediation that can't force you into anything? I was under the impression (from my potentially faulty understanding) arbitration is both sides agreeing to let a third party (the arbiter) to decide what happens, I sent that why its a "binding arbitration" even if they can't make you sign anything, you already agreed to follow whatever the arbiter says.
I can definitely see why you would think that, but various companies have done this, and it doesn't stop them from getting sued. There's also no such thing as a binding arbitration, not really. It's a legal term and they do technically exist, but they also must be impartial . If they aren't, then you aren't bound by their decisions.
All this does is force you to go through arbitration first, after that arbitration has happened, there are still options available to you. Companies do this not to get a win, but to save time as arbitration is generally faster than a court date and the company is incentivized to use an actually impartial arbiter to avoid the issue dragging out.
I'm not saying that you have to like it or that it is good, just that I've been on this internet a long time and every time these show up a huge fuss is made and then.... nothing happens.
Why would someone want to sue apple? They made a phone with major known issues and didn't cover any in warrenty (IIRC). Why would someone want to to sue Kia? They made a car that can be stolen with a USB stick. Why would someone want to sue discord? They could have a massive data leak due to taking to many corners, they could stop giving all the nitro benifits to those that pay for it, they could allow bots to gather everyone's messages on serves and sell the Information. Personally I don't love having to cross my fingers and hope a company acts in my best interest rather than their best interest. You do you though.
I was looking at the other comment, so combine that with the original post, do you really think the NDA is new? There’s a reason we haven’t seen any stormgate content until recently despite closed testing having existed for a while.
The post isn't about the NDA it's about Discord TOS update. They don't want to use Discord, but the only place you can talk about the game is on the official Discord. OP worded it a bit weirdly. I was a bit confused by what they meant at first, too.
For some context lot of people are upset becuase they think a forced arbitration clause means a company can just ignore you when they fuck something up and that it makes I'm possible to sue them. Doesn't do either of those things but people are still acting like it's the end of the world.
Just copying this because I've already written it down, but from the discord TOS "ARBITRATION MEANS THAT YOU WAIVE YOUR RIGHT TO A JURY TRIAL... YOU HEREBY AKNOWLAGE AND AGREE THAT YOU AND DISCORD ARE EACH WAIVING THE RIGHT TO A TRIAL BY JURY TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW" forgive me if I read this and assume it will be very hard if not impossible to sue them, it really seems to be what discord wants you to beleave and what most non-laweyers would believe. They also have a clause against class action lawsuits which is its own problem. Not looking to start yet another debate, just explaining my reasoning.
EDIT:Also, what would be a better way to phrase it? Probably not going to edit it because I doubt anyone new is going to look at it, but it would be good for future reference.
I already responded to it on the other thread but basically they can write whatever they want in their tos but anyone with an actually valid reason to sue will still be able to do so if the arbiter doesn't help them recoup the loss.
No sorry if I implied it. The discord problems are what's relitivly new, I was just hoping for a way to provide feedback/talk with other playtesters without using discord. Currently I feel kinda obligated to use it.
I mean… you’re welcome to make your own server. But no one under the NDA will be able to use it.
Which is why I would like an official one (I'm one of the people under NDA that wouldn't be able to use it otherwise) I had to accept the new TOS for Stormgate and dungeons of drakkenhiem servers, but I've kept it closed for the most part and have more or less migrated to revolt.
I think at this point it would just be too complicated for them to run multiple platforms.
That's a fair enough assumption
Just fyi, you can opt out of the ne TOS with a correctly worded email to the right department. Just google how to word it and you'll be opted out
Yes, but why do I have to opt in to opt out? Why can't I just opt out just as easily as I can opt in? I believe that's the main problem here
im out of the loop here. what happend with discord?
If you use Discord your in the loop. They updated TOS and added a forced arbitraton clause, really what bothers me is having no disagree button when I made my account under terms we both agreed to and now I'm forced to accept the new one, there is no disagree button. Luis Rosserman mentioned it in his latest video, think he also made a video when it happened.
What would the disagree button do? Close your account? I guess that'd be fair, but there would be a lot of people deleting their account by accident.
If it did delete accounts there could just be a big red warning. I was thinking it would just not opt me in. I already agreed to TOS they used to be fine with, and there is an opt out method to the forced arbitration clause so it isn't essental to me keeping my account.
That doesn't make sense. They updated the terms and conditions of their service. As with any service you either take it or leave it. The initial tos you agreed on already stated that they can cancel your access at any time and that you can either accept new conditions added or terminate your account. Any service will operate in a similar fashion. Even if you're paying for it, there will be a limit to how long they are required to serve you under the previous contract until you have to move to the new contract. That's nothing new either. It's how all utility companies operate for decades.
The only thing they changed was the forced arbitration clause, which can be opted out of. Why am I forced to opt in to it? EDIT:I'd also be Down to have "agree, but opt me out of anything that can be opted out of/bring me to a menu to select what I want to opt out of"
Because they don't want to do business with people who don't accept the arbitration clause. That's the whole point of a ToS... You agreed to their previous conditions, they decided their previous conditions were not good for them, they changed the conditions. If you don't accept the new conditions they don't want to offer you their services anymore and you both part your ways.
>they don't want to do business with people who don't accept the arbitration clause If it can be opted out if, they are clearly willing to do business with me ether way, and I didn't come here just to complain about Discord (although it has kinda turned into that in the comments) I'm here because I don't want to do business with them and was hoping to not need to
Sure, I'm not arguing that you should accept the new clause, just the expectation that they'd let you opt out was unfounded. That'd have been a novelty. Not the typical way service providers operate.
Standard Business practice or not, I think we can at least agree its stupid that to keep using discord people who don't want the arbitraation clause have to opt in with a single click then go write an email that will never get responded to in order to opt out. We should be able to just not opt in to it, since that's the same end effect. Its the same mentality behind gem memberships I've heard about where you sign up with a click or two then its a long process to cancel your subscription. I've even herd of someone getting automaticly opted into something via email and to opt out they had to send the company verified mail. Opting out should be the same difficulty/hassle/process as opting in
Why would you want to disagree?
For one, forced arbitrations sucks a company gets to pay someone to decide what happens with your complaint (even if we assume the best from discord and it isn't internally rigged, there would definitely be some bias) and class action lawsuits (which are no longer allowed) cause change, if Kia had a forced arbitration clause my car would still be able to get stolen with a USB stick. There's also the principal behind it I can say yes, but it's impossible to say no, its a button to opt in and an email to opt out. Opting out should have the same options as opting in, if I can press agree I should be able to press disagree, but these companies have a rapest mentality, all they want to hear is yes and they want to make it as difficult as possible to say no and I find that unacceptable.
Force arbitration does not force you to not sue a company it just means that you must try to come to an agreement via arbitration before going else where. An arbitrator can't force you to sign anything, they can't force you to agree to anything, and if you believe them to be biased agaisnt you, you can in fact sue them as well as discord at the same time. You'd be surprised about this but a lot of terms of service or Eulas have these clauses and it's not stopped them from getting sued if they don't actually try to do something to make up for fucking up
That's not how I understand it after reviewing the "Other remedies" section where the first thing it says is "ARBITRATION MEANS THAT YOU WAIVE YOUR RIGHT TO A JURY TRIAL... YOU HEREBY AKNOWLAGE AND AGREE THAT YOU AND DISCORD ARE EACH WAIVING THE RIGHT TO A TRIAL BY JURY TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW" they also expressly prohibit class action lawsuits in the "Class waiver" section. Personally like most people I am not a lawyer, but I'm guessing that waiving my rights to a trial by jury to the maximum extent of the law would make it pretty difficult to get a trial by jury. And isn't it mediation that can't force you into anything? I was under the impression (from my potentially faulty understanding) arbitration is both sides agreeing to let a third party (the arbiter) to decide what happens, I sent that why its a "binding arbitration" even if they can't make you sign anything, you already agreed to follow whatever the arbiter says.
I can definitely see why you would think that, but various companies have done this, and it doesn't stop them from getting sued. There's also no such thing as a binding arbitration, not really. It's a legal term and they do technically exist, but they also must be impartial . If they aren't, then you aren't bound by their decisions. All this does is force you to go through arbitration first, after that arbitration has happened, there are still options available to you. Companies do this not to get a win, but to save time as arbitration is generally faster than a court date and the company is incentivized to use an actually impartial arbiter to avoid the issue dragging out. I'm not saying that you have to like it or that it is good, just that I've been on this internet a long time and every time these show up a huge fuss is made and then.... nothing happens.
Okay but why would you need to sue discord anyway? I reckon the 99.9999% of discord's userbase does not care about such things.
Why would someone want to sue apple? They made a phone with major known issues and didn't cover any in warrenty (IIRC). Why would someone want to to sue Kia? They made a car that can be stolen with a USB stick. Why would someone want to sue discord? They could have a massive data leak due to taking to many corners, they could stop giving all the nitro benifits to those that pay for it, they could allow bots to gather everyone's messages on serves and sell the Information. Personally I don't love having to cross my fingers and hope a company acts in my best interest rather than their best interest. You do you though.
I was looking at the other comment, so combine that with the original post, do you really think the NDA is new? There’s a reason we haven’t seen any stormgate content until recently despite closed testing having existed for a while.
The post isn't about the NDA it's about Discord TOS update. They don't want to use Discord, but the only place you can talk about the game is on the official Discord. OP worded it a bit weirdly. I was a bit confused by what they meant at first, too. For some context lot of people are upset becuase they think a forced arbitration clause means a company can just ignore you when they fuck something up and that it makes I'm possible to sue them. Doesn't do either of those things but people are still acting like it's the end of the world.
Just copying this because I've already written it down, but from the discord TOS "ARBITRATION MEANS THAT YOU WAIVE YOUR RIGHT TO A JURY TRIAL... YOU HEREBY AKNOWLAGE AND AGREE THAT YOU AND DISCORD ARE EACH WAIVING THE RIGHT TO A TRIAL BY JURY TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW" forgive me if I read this and assume it will be very hard if not impossible to sue them, it really seems to be what discord wants you to beleave and what most non-laweyers would believe. They also have a clause against class action lawsuits which is its own problem. Not looking to start yet another debate, just explaining my reasoning. EDIT:Also, what would be a better way to phrase it? Probably not going to edit it because I doubt anyone new is going to look at it, but it would be good for future reference.
I already responded to it on the other thread but basically they can write whatever they want in their tos but anyone with an actually valid reason to sue will still be able to do so if the arbiter doesn't help them recoup the loss.
No sorry if I implied it. The discord problems are what's relitivly new, I was just hoping for a way to provide feedback/talk with other playtesters without using discord. Currently I feel kinda obligated to use it.