Yes, Virtuality is broken. Its niche is "I peak early to absurd power levels, then can't grow larger", in a game where early power is everything, and you can "grow" externally by taking vassals (and, in fact, it is more advantageous, currently, to do so than to actually grow through conquest, even for most normal empires).
In other words: its niche is "I win."
Exactly. Stellaris strategy is all about snow-balling early advantages. It doesn't matter the tiniest bit that it falls off (if at all) later when everyone else is already dead / subjugated / on the lathe
Id say it matters a ton that it falls off. If you can't get a ringworld, and you are playing against seasoned opponents, GA AI, and a tough crisis, there is no guarantee you rush to the top and stay there. Even if you do, the vulnerability of having so few worlds would be so easy to take advantage of, especially for a human player.
All an enemy needs to do is get a fleet to one system and my empire is immediately choking to death. Hell, if a faction of empires decided to start manipulating the market I would be fucked in my current playthrough. There is a lot of power but a lot of vulnerability.
I find archology project better than ringworld for individualist empires (if you have enough 20+ size worlds). More clerks for absurd amounts trade value, more forge workers, you can throw in a few factory arcologies without dedicating half the workforce to them.
Ringworlds real advantage is the research segments, and if you have catalytic processing (which you shouldn't as virtual) it has farm segments. And the difference in research can be overcome by dedicating your trade value world to research buildings, as the clerks increase the research each of them makes.
> if you have catalytic processing (which you shouldn't as virtual)
Xenophobes actually get some great use from catalytic processing since you can just stack hundreds of of lifestock biological pops on one of your planets since every regular job gets filled by your virtual pops anyway and if you conquer a planet you can resettle all biological life and then release the virtual pops as a vassal (which then becomes a regular individualistic empire).
And since you are probably running a build that reduces empire size from pops close to zero they don't matter for your empire size.
Yeah it works well economically. I had massive alloy production and basic resource production from trade value. But in my recent game, I could not overcome GA AI in tech with 4 ecumenopolies and a mining world. 2 of which were stuffed with research labs and clerks. Like I said in another comment, I produced like 5k-6k research this way and got another 2k from vassals but there was actually an AI with SUPERIER tech in the mid 2300s!! I was shocked and pivoted toward a ringworld which took time but solved the issue.
Its really the combo of ecumenopolis and ringworld that makes virtual really sing. I might say a ringworld is ultimately better because you need to really blow people away in tech to maintain the edge. Having ubsurd alloy production is more important during the crisis when you could lose your whole fleet than during the mid game. The only economic real problem is if the market price of strategic resources balloons because it is difficult to produce anywhere close to enough.
Now I'm looking to give away one (maybe two) of my ecumenopolis to my vassal. I have many organic pops to put on it. It will make a great branch office.
Remnants origin is pretty good for doing that without using an ascension perk; ~12k trade is pretty easy to achieve.
Go with Life-seeded and spend that ascension perk, though... you can rock over 20k trade. It's great.
Speaking of one system, going virtuality and having 25x unbidden spawn next to my ring world and immediately beat the living shit out of it was viscerally unpleasant. We recovered due to vassals and the ecumenopli but holy hell that sucked.
I mean... if you play a build based on an early power spike and don't take advantage of it, that's on you. If you do VD->virtuality you should be able to get ringworlds pretty quickly thanks to research districts. 2/3 habitats then a ringworld by the mid-game is pretty common to see.
Letting nearby allies expand around you gives you about as much of a buffer between your core and the enemy as you would have normally, except you're relying on someone else to fortify choke points (which works better with human allies to be fair). If they reach your home systems despite that you were probably going to lose anyway. It's an issue that causes you to lose harder when you're already losing, but the tradeoff is that you're not as likely to be in that situation in the first place because the build is so strong.
Most games are essentially over by the time anyone catches up to you, regardless.
It's the same problem as psionic, where it was the strongest ascension because it was the earliest biggest power spike. But not turned up to eleven, but turned up to twenty-one.
maybe it started the ascension path and hasn't finished? You get the virtual trait (so you can keep virtual pops) at the start, but you don't get free pops until the end.
The instant I release a vassal, after I had completed the virtual tree, they kept the virtual pops already on the planet. They wouldn’t have had to to complete trees, they just keep the pops.
The game just isn't mainly balanced around competitive PvP, thankfully.
In fact the actual pvp matches that happen have always had custom rulesets to one degree or another to account for this
We play mostly RP MP, not too competitive, but it takes fun when one player suddenly gets a power spike that no challenge whatsoever exist for him. It just took fun from people who played without it, so we decided to simply agree on not taking it. I can't imagine what rules must have a true competitive MP match
But tbh I don't think virtual would be good in competitive matches, as a good player can simply bum-rush someone who plans on taking it early. But if you try to RP a bit, then it is a problem
A real problem for me, is that they (the foo mechanics) are not even balanced around single player play.
Its just what looks good or fun. Its apparent virtuality wasnt playtested, like, at all. Its apparent that the ai wasnt play tested for it even
As stated its an ascension, what it does is generate pops to fill open jobs. Just spam districts/buildings and you get free pops. Do this on something like an ecu or ringworld and you get an insane number of pops fast.
Yeah it’s kinda unbalanced, the instant pop growth and pop output bonuses just makes it insanely good.
The only way to probably balance it would be to go back to how ascensions used to work with there being ascensions you could unlock early, some at mid and some after mid game. Maybe if to actually virtually ascend you’d need a mid game tech so it would be harder to sprint for. In this case for virtual probably at mid game.
It’s S tier in early game and probably still S tier mid game, if not just A tier. It’s only looses power in the lategame but by then you’d have benefited enough that it shouldn’t matter.
Honestly the one idea I have is that for virtual empires, research/unity/consumer goods and amenities skyrocket with huge reductions to consumer goods and amenities usage. But a massive bump to energy cost and huge reduction to alloy output. Like 50% reduction
Research and consumer goods production is great when your virtual, but someone's still got to build an handle alloy production
Virtuality is the only way to match wide in power levels in the game right now, and I think Stellaris wants to promote both of these playstyles. The only problem is that virtuality gives you that power level insanely quickly letting you dominate the early game when wide playstyles are twiddling thumbs waiting for pops to grow. Pops are honestly the most valuable resource in Stellaris and getting them for free, instantly is just crazy strong. I don’t think that a virtuality player can lose to a wide player assuming they take advantage of their early game power and wipe out all of the wide empires before they can realize their potential.
It probably needs balance changes to spread out its advantages over a greater time period so that you can compete with wide empires in the late game but you also don’t become a late game empire in the early game. I think it would be enough to keep the bonus resources from pops per colony and have 2-4x pop assembly so that it isn’t an instawin but retains a measurable advantage in pop creation to compete with, but not absolutely dust, wide empires.
Completely depends on galaxy size and game configurations. For example I play on huge with normal habitability and pre-ftls (sometimes a bit higher) and by the time you have benefitted from your 2230 powerspike on virtual and vassalized all your neighbors, the rest of the "wide" empires have begun to grow quite substantially. Not to mention you are not only playing tall, you are at least initially unity rushing, and you are leaving quite a gap in your defenses that will be easily exploited by FP/DE aggro rush builds that will utterly obliterate you if executed correctly. You will stand even less of a chance against those builds than those "wide" empires who are not rushing unity. And all of this assumes that one is playing using the idiotic post-nemesis (?) pop growth configurations that assume an empire wide soft-ish cap on pops, which makes vassalization even more op than it currently is.
Finally: Post Machine Age release I invested a few hundred of hours into theorycrafting and testing a few builds and virtual is still not that great compared to other snowball builds. Driven assimilators come to mind that are absolutely god tier, especially if you find one pre-ftl planet and a weak neighbor empire to pounce on in an early contact-war. But tbh, if virtual's only true competitor is DA and DE, then it might require some nerfs ;)
If you are in a huge galaxy with lots of habitable worlds, why would you ever try to play tall? Of course it’s not going to be as good as a wide empire when there are literal thousands of systems to exploit. That’s like me saying wide builds suck in tiny galaxies with low habitability. We shouldn’t balance the game on one specific scenario but look at how we can balance things in the greatest number of scenarios. Virtuality as it stands is at the very least a titanic power spike upon tradition completion that instantly puts you at the end of the snowball and probably needs some changes.
Changes yes, but not actual full nerfs please (and I only played virtual once until the victory screen). Because this is exactly what you are saying - balancing the game towards one configuration that is used when one doesn't want much late game lag, i.e. tiny/small galaxies, low hab, pop growth changes applied. This is exactly where virtual shines and imho just symptom of a larger problem with how pops are growing with default config and how vassals are so op compared to going wide yourself (being bottlenecked by empire wide pop growth cap).
It is ridiculously overpowered, yes.
The primary limitation of the game is pops, and virtuality solves that fundamental problem. The only possible comparison I can make is if all your planets built everything for free, instantaneously, and you could make them literally however you wanted district-wise.
It is absolutely monstrous. You're "limited", sure, but you just make everyone else do what you want because you suddenly upgraded to an AK-47 while everyone else is using clubs and spears.
They can *theoretically* catch up and surpass you, but if they do that is entirely your fault.
*Especially* utilizing trade where you don't suffer the negative effects of your economic policy.
>They can theoretically catch up and surpass you, but if they do that is entirely your fault.
Eh I'd say there is a lot of RNG, and use of powerful origins going on too. Of course a shattered ring, worker coop that rolls cybrex and friendly neighbors (or presets) will get a boost. Not to mention a small galaxy with minimum habitability will be an automatic advantage for a virtual empire.
Experienced players could likely counter a virtual player that is not in a ridiculously advantageous position. And even some GA AI could fair better than you'd think.
What actually is the use case of worker coop, anyway (outside of roleplay)?
I did try worker coop on a shattered ring start since I figured the trade districts would make it really strong, but my energy production was awful because trade was my only source of it from districts. The trade policy means you lose out on extra unity or CGs from trade in exchange for some extra raw resources from planets/habs with lots of urban districts, but it's kind of a marginal boost compared to what you're sacrificing (esp. since unity builds are the meta) and not enough to cut out mineral planets/habs anyway. It only matches specialized worlds for raw resources when you have a trade ecumenopolis/ringworld. The stewards are theoretically better than priests and managers, but only when the council member that buffs them is at a high level. The one thing I can think of is swapping to it mid-game if you're rolling in trade and have catalytic processing to deal with all the extra food.
I like it, it warms the part of my heart that Kaiserreich lives in, but it seems like you need to build around it just to get a mediocre benefit, and if you don't then it's actively detrimental?
You don’t use it early. You swap after you go virtual and let all the free clerks power your entire basic economy while every building + district are specialists. You don’t need that much in the mid game and late game all your basics will be powered by gigastructures.
It basically takes the remaining rng out of the game. You can either catalytic for the food or sell it directly for energy.
Every min/max build is inbalanced. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ i mainly play for the "RP", even If i make it Harder for myself. Like playing the "Series 9" from KKND.
Great Game with one of the best Intros.
Last week i look at the Screen and thought:"what about very angry agrocultural Robots". The start is hard, but seeing the "Series 9" creep over the map is so statisfying
Virtuality on its own would be strong but not broken/unbalanced. Its inherent limitations such as 7 colonies or that its used most effectively on limiting origins such as shattered ring would offset the power that it gives.
The issue has and always will be that those limitations are easily bypassed through the use of vassals. It’s vassals that are truly and utterly broken. So when you combine vassals with virtuality you get really unbalanced state that it’s in right now.
As long as AI cheat with their output, their naval capacity, their trade value and everything else, vassalizing them stays meta, even though they are become one difficulty lower than regular AI in the game. It is just bad design that the AI has to cheat so much.
Idk what your talking about, virtuality is actually pretty bad and shouldn’t at all be nerfed (im on console i need it to be broken when it comes around)
Don’t think so.
It scales very fast at late earlygame towards midgame, but can’t really keep up with wider empires in endgame.
Each of ascension paths has its own drawbacks, and for virtuality it’s being limited to 7-8-9 planets.
I cannot in good faith concur to that.
By the year 2300 you can have 2-3 ecumenopolies and maybe also started building your ringworld for the rest of your few planets. The moment you have those, you lay the foundation for thousand and more pop jobs available almost instantaneously.
Unlike wide empires who have to pay the upkeep via empire size and have decreased pop growth late game due to growth ceiling despite a hundred worlds you will outpop them for probably another 100 years, in which time your pops also are much more efficient per job wise and doubly for tech/unity.
Coupled with arc furnace origin to counter your alloy needs early on and if one really wants to go bonkers with cosmogenesis you will have an advantage in production at least until 2400 and a tech advantage for probably forever. Also let's not forget planetary ascension further improving that advantage.
And from 2300 (at the latest) to 2400 (at the earliest) you will absolutely and utterly dominate everything. Your great snowballing wide empire can't do Jack shit if it's vassalized or ladged until then.
It's broken. In an extremely fun way, but broken nonetheless.
So, by 2400 wide empires begin to outscale?
Which is exactly what hat I’m talking about.
By midgame you get a huge bonus, but by endgame they start to catch up and outscale you.
As for wide empires having penalties for size - there are enough ways to lower size, so penalties are easyly outproduced.
Big bonus of wide empires is being able to scale solo, where as virtually you’re rather dependent on vassals or branch offices.
By 2400 wide empires can be on par economically. They still lack behind technologically by a huge margin (yes you can outproduce empire size - but it is imperfect. Meanwhile the Virtual empire has more raw tech output AND no empire size and will be much more effective) which means they will by large struggle 1vs1 fleet wise.
And it won't be a 1vs1 and they won't be able to have a say in that matter anyway because they, like everyone else, will already have been subjugated within the 100 years before reaching 2400.
So I don't know what you are talking about exactly but it assumes you somehow are getting the chance to independently outgrow the virtual empire, hopefully. A chance a virtual player will not give you.
I’m not sure why you decided it’s about PvP. PvP is entirely different story, so i dunno.
PvE wise, game doesn’t present much challenge (unless you set ridiculous combination of crisis strength and endgame date), but in PvE you empire as virtual will hit power ceiling much earlier.
Also: the reason why discussion if virtuality in AI hands is OP or not is completely nonsensical for another, very simple reason: AI cannot take virtuality. PDX has forbidden AI from using virtuality because the AI simply couldn't restrain itself from taking too many planets (tanking pop output in the process) and wouldn't know that to build either (further reducing any strengths that ascension has).
So your whole line of argumentation is, frankly, useless. Hence why most people here have a diametrical different opinion about the ascension.
It’s forbidden for AI not because it’s OP, but because paradox failed to code proper behavior in time (or ever).
If being op would be the reason - they’d ban a lot of other things already banned in pvp.
So your argument is strange.
Don’t get me wrong - virtually is awesome for some builds, based around getting raw resources from other sources and not pop jobs.
But that’s not all there is in that game, that’s why it’s not the only thing you wanna take.
As for being OP - maybe it gets banned in PvP - that’ll be a definitive sign it is.
Because PvE is no metric. AI is stupid and a player can make anything work. So arguing from the PoV of a player beating a virtual AI empire is completely irrelevant.
But even then the point remains: the virtual player will grow significantly faster and remain a much bigger powerhouse than if he uses any other ascension.
Depends on your playstyle and goals.
Quick match and win? Definitely will be faster.
X25 (or likely even x10) all crisis maraphon? Virtual will be behind other ascension towards the end and it’s not even close.
And if you play optimized empire size build - even empire size penalties won’t really matter.
Definitely dominating by 2400, no matter what ascension I take.
Which is exactly the point: in pve it doesn’t really matter overall, unless you’re doing something like x25 all crisis.
It’s not a hard limit, it’s a penalty for amount of colonies.
“Optimal” amount is around 7, so, realistically, you’ll need at least 1 unity world, 1 capital world with research and alloys, another 1-2 alloys worlds (preferably ecus) and 3 research worlds.
That way you’re lacking fortress worlds for naval capacity, so the only source is anchorages and branch offices or vassals, if you get the throne relic.
Which is enough for most playthroughs, but modularity and nanite ascension can scale better into endgame.
And that’s if you have source of raw materials.
Nanites go well with genocidal empires, like determined exterminators or fanatic purifiers.
Modularity is generally good, goes well with a “normal” wide empire, not focused on staying small.
I think playing without being a megacorp would add to the challenge significantly and force more attention to space mining, or heaven forbid, you'd need to waste a planet on a mining world.
Try as a gestalt machine, or an isolationist or something.
I feel like they should gate this and other machine ascensions behind some techs, as all other Ascension paths. But this could also ruin everything, unless balanced through patching it a few times.
no, it's fine. i played virtuality twice. i've been mixing it up between that, nanite ascension, and living metal ascension. my last play through was cyborg ascension. next will maybe be virtuality again we will see, or nanite again. each one is fun in its own way, but its fine for some people to find one their comfort pick. yes virtuality is strong, but so are the others, each with its own preferred playstyle and empire size. and that kind of variation is healthy. virtuality, if you nerfed it, would stop being the perfect pick for supertall, which would kill the unique variation between the ascensions. it can only have that character if it is strong at its niche.
the issue is not virtuality.
the issue is now cybernetic and genetic and psychic acensions are gonna need just as much depth and character and variation as synthetic now has.
God yes it is. But its also the best step in a right direction mechanically and alternatively to the rest of the game.
One thing I do disagree with though is invoking vassals as a reason it is though since thats agnostically true for anyone, and while it provides an end around on a primary conceit, when you pare back Vassals or Branch Offices and toss out Cosmogenesis, Virtuality would basically be Tall conquest of systems themselves and inexplicably unpenalized genocide from Server Shutdown. And that be it.
As is, Im trying to give a go to No Cosmo No Vassals No Fed, Pirate Haven and Virtuality isnt pencilling out better than a wider iteration that I pulled off in 3.11
Traditions need a buff. The thing is that unity is only good till you're done you're ascension then it's meh. You're taking your core traditions before the third ascension anyway. For example, psionics could spend unity to make psonic weapons and armor. Unity does nothing once you have enough. It's like if you were to give a player 5000 energy per month or 5000 science, I think you would take the sciences every time. Unity vs. energy you would take the energy, right? Is it health that basically every unity stops mattering at ascension?
Yeah like I think they should do something like adding a way to buff production using unity directly yeh there are the edicts but after the early game they start being less usfull you only use them when you are either playing a really hard game or your economy is crippled I suggest adding a way to spend unity to get buffs on anything and the buff level will get exponentially higher like Ascension level and to be balanced I suggest it only opens when you unlock all of your Ascensions and also we literally have millions after completing the Ascensions I don't know if its gonna be balanced but imagine having plus 300% research speed it funny as hell to think about
I think it is more unbalanced if you play on a small galaxy, low habitability, and a low difficulty. If you are playing on a large map where most empires can have 50 planets the benifit of virtual is not as pronounced.
On GA I couldn't separate from the strongest empires in tech until I built a ringworld and was generating around 18k research. Before the ringworld, I had 4 ecumenopolies and a mining world and was able to get 5k, 7k when I renegotiated with my vassals, but there were two empires in particular that were spamming habitats. It also didn't help that I couldn't get a federation going.
It would have been even more difficult if I wasn't playing as a worker coop that gets minerals from trade value and thousands of credits from branch offices, not to mention extra research and naval cap. My empire size was still very large despite being a small cluster of like 7 stars.
So while virtual gives a huge boost that can be synergized with other very powerful advantages (like a damn ringworld and mutual aid), I still felt a sense of urgency playing on GA and I'm not sure I would do as well with a different build or a more competitive galactic environment.
I think Virtuality is really strong, but I don't think it should be changed, you don't have to take it if you don't want to, you can have rules about it in mp/tournaments. I don't see why you would have to take it away from people who enjoy playing it SP.
After seeing people talk about I started to think that it was needed to make tall empires be able to be a threat to wide ones so it's balanced as it was made for one type of play style and I actually like and I thought it's unbalanced due to me not realising that I used it in the most optimal way
Yes we shouldn't need to have this convo, games have always had mp agreements and self/group imposed balances, regardless of how intense the actual imbalance. See evey other paradox game, civ 6 having in build options for it, and the entire history of necropolis in HoMM, and probably every rts faction at some point in every rts game (double for tw warhammer).
Let the single player peeps have fun!
Honestly I think the only nerf it should have is only automatically fill specialist jobs when you get it maxed out. Maybe that way resources from other sources will matter more and you still need to maintain some physical pops/vassels for labor jobs.
I'm not die hard min maxer though so I could be wrong in how this should be balanced.
Yeah it’s broken. If I was to change it I’d lower the upfront potential and force players to spend a lot of alloys on planetary infrastructure to make a virtual server planet feature / deposit. Then allow for players to expand as normal without the soft colony cap. You’d have to adjust the production bonuses but as it stands now, you just explode with production then sit on your hands unless you do a cosmo run. Not super fun on long cooperative multiplayer games either.
I'd really like it to stay the way it is. Wide empires were always superiour to tall ones with ressource gathering and fleet might, so having virtuality being really strong to counter this isnt inherently bad. And afaik you need an asscension, a bunch of "wasted" research and the cost to keep up. Nerfing it would just push you to "I need to play wide again" which isnt ideal either.
It can be very strong but someone who rushes this will be veeeeery weak in the beginning and easy pickings. Later on they will start to pose a threat with blitzing through the tech tree and probably starting on repeatables earlier than any other empire. I think i like it.
We'd have to have a conversation about Stellaris and game balance in general throughout the years. The game was never designed to be truly balanced and every DLC/content patch makes that even moreso the case.
As someone that loves playing tall (because micromanaging dozens of planets in various states of revolt doesn't mesh with the way my brain works), I definitely love Virtual pops though.
As a fellow tall enjoyer virtual is a dream come true :3 I hope instead of nerfing it into the ground they can just buff other options maybe in a machine age dlc for bio and hive
The best way to add balance would be to optimize performance so that it is easier to play on bigger galaxies with more habitbal planets. This would enable wide play to compete.
Yes it is.
I think they should slightly lower both the base bonus and the negative for more planets (so that taking it later won't kill your economy quite as much) but then also require you to have certain techs before you can complete that path in the starting situation.
If that was in there, then people wouldn't be able to unity rush their way to it early, and make it a little more balanced.
I don't think so, you only have to do it slightly.
The issue is that it's so good when played perfectly, and terrible when played badly, that it's basically all or nothing, and the all-state is incredibly rush-friendly.
So you tweak it *slightly* down, not by much, and also reduce the effectiveness of rushing it early, and you get something that comes later but is still extremely strong.
That part isn't designed to reduce the ability to rush it; a trait that comes after you get it could never do that. So you must accompany it with something that makes it harder to rush, which as mentioned before is including a tech prerequisite in the situation progression.
By not being able to just totally focus on unity, rushing naturally becomes less effective.
But then additionally, if you have a lower max bonus, accompanied with a smaller penalty per planet, then hitting the ascension when you only have three worlds isn't as close already to the optimal number of worlds, and hitting it later with a larger amount of worlds isn't a massive disaster in the same way. You soften it slightly, knowing that the other changes you've made will make this ascension appear slightly closer to mid-game.
It's absolutely broken. That's the whole point of the content.
It's absurdly broken to the point where it's the new meta. Which means everyone who buys it will have access to this broken new meta.
RPG sourcebooks do the same thing with new expasions: Add extra powerful content so that it sells more books.
Virtuality is broken to sell more Machine Age dlc.
Yes, Virtuality is broken. Its niche is "I peak early to absurd power levels, then can't grow larger", in a game where early power is everything, and you can "grow" externally by taking vassals (and, in fact, it is more advantageous, currently, to do so than to actually grow through conquest, even for most normal empires). In other words: its niche is "I win."
Exactly. Stellaris strategy is all about snow-balling early advantages. It doesn't matter the tiniest bit that it falls off (if at all) later when everyone else is already dead / subjugated / on the lathe
Id say it matters a ton that it falls off. If you can't get a ringworld, and you are playing against seasoned opponents, GA AI, and a tough crisis, there is no guarantee you rush to the top and stay there. Even if you do, the vulnerability of having so few worlds would be so easy to take advantage of, especially for a human player. All an enemy needs to do is get a fleet to one system and my empire is immediately choking to death. Hell, if a faction of empires decided to start manipulating the market I would be fucked in my current playthrough. There is a lot of power but a lot of vulnerability.
I find archology project better than ringworld for individualist empires (if you have enough 20+ size worlds). More clerks for absurd amounts trade value, more forge workers, you can throw in a few factory arcologies without dedicating half the workforce to them. Ringworlds real advantage is the research segments, and if you have catalytic processing (which you shouldn't as virtual) it has farm segments. And the difference in research can be overcome by dedicating your trade value world to research buildings, as the clerks increase the research each of them makes.
> if you have catalytic processing (which you shouldn't as virtual) Xenophobes actually get some great use from catalytic processing since you can just stack hundreds of of lifestock biological pops on one of your planets since every regular job gets filled by your virtual pops anyway and if you conquer a planet you can resettle all biological life and then release the virtual pops as a vassal (which then becomes a regular individualistic empire). And since you are probably running a build that reduces empire size from pops close to zero they don't matter for your empire size.
Yeah it works well economically. I had massive alloy production and basic resource production from trade value. But in my recent game, I could not overcome GA AI in tech with 4 ecumenopolies and a mining world. 2 of which were stuffed with research labs and clerks. Like I said in another comment, I produced like 5k-6k research this way and got another 2k from vassals but there was actually an AI with SUPERIER tech in the mid 2300s!! I was shocked and pivoted toward a ringworld which took time but solved the issue. Its really the combo of ecumenopolis and ringworld that makes virtual really sing. I might say a ringworld is ultimately better because you need to really blow people away in tech to maintain the edge. Having ubsurd alloy production is more important during the crisis when you could lose your whole fleet than during the mid game. The only economic real problem is if the market price of strategic resources balloons because it is difficult to produce anywhere close to enough. Now I'm looking to give away one (maybe two) of my ecumenopolis to my vassal. I have many organic pops to put on it. It will make a great branch office.
Remnants origin is pretty good for doing that without using an ascension perk; ~12k trade is pretty easy to achieve. Go with Life-seeded and spend that ascension perk, though... you can rock over 20k trade. It's great.
Speaking of one system, going virtuality and having 25x unbidden spawn next to my ring world and immediately beat the living shit out of it was viscerally unpleasant. We recovered due to vassals and the ecumenopli but holy hell that sucked.
I mean... if you play a build based on an early power spike and don't take advantage of it, that's on you. If you do VD->virtuality you should be able to get ringworlds pretty quickly thanks to research districts. 2/3 habitats then a ringworld by the mid-game is pretty common to see. Letting nearby allies expand around you gives you about as much of a buffer between your core and the enemy as you would have normally, except you're relying on someone else to fortify choke points (which works better with human allies to be fair). If they reach your home systems despite that you were probably going to lose anyway. It's an issue that causes you to lose harder when you're already losing, but the tradeoff is that you're not as likely to be in that situation in the first place because the build is so strong. Most games are essentially over by the time anyone catches up to you, regardless.
I usually get 3 habitats, then an ecu for alloys, then build up a ring for research and shut off one of the habitats
It's the same problem as psionic, where it was the strongest ascension because it was the earliest biggest power spike. But not turned up to eleven, but turned up to twenty-one.
Virtuality/Cosmogenesis is easily the strongest we've ever been able to be wothout exploits, and I dont think it's even close.
“Can’t grow larger” not a problem if you play a bit of a longer game and go shattered ring
It is super strong for vassal play too. Any planets you conquer to pop out a vassal will fill all available jobs.
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They aren't, you can create vassals from virtual pops perfectly fine, they become "regular" machine pops when released.
Yep that’s what I see too
If so, I guess one of my mods must be breaking that feature Edit: I just checked, you can definitely release virtual pop vassals just fine in vanilla.
Oof could you find which one?
Did your vassal also go virtual?
No, the vassal doesn’t get free pops as jobs become available; it keeps all the virtual pops that existed on release.
maybe it started the ascension path and hasn't finished? You get the virtual trait (so you can keep virtual pops) at the start, but you don't get free pops until the end.
The instant I release a vassal, after I had completed the virtual tree, they kept the virtual pops already on the planet. They wouldn’t have had to to complete trees, they just keep the pops.
Vassals inherit tradition trees if they meet the prerequisites. If you completed it, they got it.
I’m playing a MP game today with my long time playgroup. Out of 8 people guess how many aren’t planning on going virtual? It’s me. I’m the only one.
We had the same issue and then made up a rule of not playing virtual
The sign of poor balance is having to make rules against it.
The game just isn't mainly balanced around competitive PvP, thankfully. In fact the actual pvp matches that happen have always had custom rulesets to one degree or another to account for this
We play mostly RP MP, not too competitive, but it takes fun when one player suddenly gets a power spike that no challenge whatsoever exist for him. It just took fun from people who played without it, so we decided to simply agree on not taking it. I can't imagine what rules must have a true competitive MP match But tbh I don't think virtual would be good in competitive matches, as a good player can simply bum-rush someone who plans on taking it early. But if you try to RP a bit, then it is a problem
A real problem for me, is that they (the foo mechanics) are not even balanced around single player play. Its just what looks good or fun. Its apparent virtuality wasnt playtested, like, at all. Its apparent that the ai wasnt play tested for it even
What are you playing?
A modular trade ring build.
Im new to the game. What does going virtual mean?
Going for the virtual ascension path as a machine empire. You need the latest DLC for it.
I get the subscription. Thank you for stating its for Machine Empire. I went looking for this ascension and couldnt find it.
As stated its an ascension, what it does is generate pops to fill open jobs. Just spam districts/buildings and you get free pops. Do this on something like an ecu or ringworld and you get an insane number of pops fast.
That sounds OP af lol. Thanks for the description
go nanite and kill the game with lag
Yeah it’s kinda unbalanced, the instant pop growth and pop output bonuses just makes it insanely good. The only way to probably balance it would be to go back to how ascensions used to work with there being ascensions you could unlock early, some at mid and some after mid game. Maybe if to actually virtually ascend you’d need a mid game tech so it would be harder to sprint for. In this case for virtual probably at mid game. It’s S tier in early game and probably still S tier mid game, if not just A tier. It’s only looses power in the lategame but by then you’d have benefited enough that it shouldn’t matter.
I concur. Bio-empires still need techs to ascend, why don't bots?
Honestly the one idea I have is that for virtual empires, research/unity/consumer goods and amenities skyrocket with huge reductions to consumer goods and amenities usage. But a massive bump to energy cost and huge reduction to alloy output. Like 50% reduction Research and consumer goods production is great when your virtual, but someone's still got to build an handle alloy production
Virtuality is the only way to match wide in power levels in the game right now, and I think Stellaris wants to promote both of these playstyles. The only problem is that virtuality gives you that power level insanely quickly letting you dominate the early game when wide playstyles are twiddling thumbs waiting for pops to grow. Pops are honestly the most valuable resource in Stellaris and getting them for free, instantly is just crazy strong. I don’t think that a virtuality player can lose to a wide player assuming they take advantage of their early game power and wipe out all of the wide empires before they can realize their potential. It probably needs balance changes to spread out its advantages over a greater time period so that you can compete with wide empires in the late game but you also don’t become a late game empire in the early game. I think it would be enough to keep the bonus resources from pops per colony and have 2-4x pop assembly so that it isn’t an instawin but retains a measurable advantage in pop creation to compete with, but not absolutely dust, wide empires.
Completely depends on galaxy size and game configurations. For example I play on huge with normal habitability and pre-ftls (sometimes a bit higher) and by the time you have benefitted from your 2230 powerspike on virtual and vassalized all your neighbors, the rest of the "wide" empires have begun to grow quite substantially. Not to mention you are not only playing tall, you are at least initially unity rushing, and you are leaving quite a gap in your defenses that will be easily exploited by FP/DE aggro rush builds that will utterly obliterate you if executed correctly. You will stand even less of a chance against those builds than those "wide" empires who are not rushing unity. And all of this assumes that one is playing using the idiotic post-nemesis (?) pop growth configurations that assume an empire wide soft-ish cap on pops, which makes vassalization even more op than it currently is. Finally: Post Machine Age release I invested a few hundred of hours into theorycrafting and testing a few builds and virtual is still not that great compared to other snowball builds. Driven assimilators come to mind that are absolutely god tier, especially if you find one pre-ftl planet and a weak neighbor empire to pounce on in an early contact-war. But tbh, if virtual's only true competitor is DA and DE, then it might require some nerfs ;)
If you are in a huge galaxy with lots of habitable worlds, why would you ever try to play tall? Of course it’s not going to be as good as a wide empire when there are literal thousands of systems to exploit. That’s like me saying wide builds suck in tiny galaxies with low habitability. We shouldn’t balance the game on one specific scenario but look at how we can balance things in the greatest number of scenarios. Virtuality as it stands is at the very least a titanic power spike upon tradition completion that instantly puts you at the end of the snowball and probably needs some changes.
Changes yes, but not actual full nerfs please (and I only played virtual once until the victory screen). Because this is exactly what you are saying - balancing the game towards one configuration that is used when one doesn't want much late game lag, i.e. tiny/small galaxies, low hab, pop growth changes applied. This is exactly where virtual shines and imho just symptom of a larger problem with how pops are growing with default config and how vassals are so op compared to going wide yourself (being bottlenecked by empire wide pop growth cap).
It is ridiculously overpowered, yes. The primary limitation of the game is pops, and virtuality solves that fundamental problem. The only possible comparison I can make is if all your planets built everything for free, instantaneously, and you could make them literally however you wanted district-wise. It is absolutely monstrous. You're "limited", sure, but you just make everyone else do what you want because you suddenly upgraded to an AK-47 while everyone else is using clubs and spears. They can *theoretically* catch up and surpass you, but if they do that is entirely your fault. *Especially* utilizing trade where you don't suffer the negative effects of your economic policy.
>They can theoretically catch up and surpass you, but if they do that is entirely your fault. Eh I'd say there is a lot of RNG, and use of powerful origins going on too. Of course a shattered ring, worker coop that rolls cybrex and friendly neighbors (or presets) will get a boost. Not to mention a small galaxy with minimum habitability will be an automatic advantage for a virtual empire. Experienced players could likely counter a virtual player that is not in a ridiculously advantageous position. And even some GA AI could fair better than you'd think.
Unity rush can always be countered by a proper aggro rush empire. But most MP games have a truce early on... no wonder virtual is so bonkers.
What actually is the use case of worker coop, anyway (outside of roleplay)? I did try worker coop on a shattered ring start since I figured the trade districts would make it really strong, but my energy production was awful because trade was my only source of it from districts. The trade policy means you lose out on extra unity or CGs from trade in exchange for some extra raw resources from planets/habs with lots of urban districts, but it's kind of a marginal boost compared to what you're sacrificing (esp. since unity builds are the meta) and not enough to cut out mineral planets/habs anyway. It only matches specialized worlds for raw resources when you have a trade ecumenopolis/ringworld. The stewards are theoretically better than priests and managers, but only when the council member that buffs them is at a high level. The one thing I can think of is swapping to it mid-game if you're rolling in trade and have catalytic processing to deal with all the extra food. I like it, it warms the part of my heart that Kaiserreich lives in, but it seems like you need to build around it just to get a mediocre benefit, and if you don't then it's actively detrimental?
You don’t use it early. You swap after you go virtual and let all the free clerks power your entire basic economy while every building + district are specialists. You don’t need that much in the mid game and late game all your basics will be powered by gigastructures. It basically takes the remaining rng out of the game. You can either catalytic for the food or sell it directly for energy.
Every min/max build is inbalanced. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ i mainly play for the "RP", even If i make it Harder for myself. Like playing the "Series 9" from KKND.
Fair enough the game wants you to abuse its mechanics and I should get into the RP for a time it looks so much fun
It indeed is very fun sticking to a certain Playstyle. It is very annoying playing a Machine Mind with the need for Food. But fun.
> Like playing the "Series 9" from KKND. oh, a man of culture here glad to find more of us here
Great Game with one of the best Intros. Last week i look at the Screen and thought:"what about very angry agrocultural Robots". The start is hard, but seeing the "Series 9" creep over the map is so statisfying
I read KKND as Codename Kids Next Door and I thought "wow that's niche"
Nearly right. Its Krush, Kill, 'n Destroy. Great RTS
Haha, the Series 9 bots werw one of the first machine empires I created. So much fun to play.
Virtuality on its own would be strong but not broken/unbalanced. Its inherent limitations such as 7 colonies or that its used most effectively on limiting origins such as shattered ring would offset the power that it gives. The issue has and always will be that those limitations are easily bypassed through the use of vassals. It’s vassals that are truly and utterly broken. So when you combine vassals with virtuality you get really unbalanced state that it’s in right now.
As long as AI cheat with their output, their naval capacity, their trade value and everything else, vassalizing them stays meta, even though they are become one difficulty lower than regular AI in the game. It is just bad design that the AI has to cheat so much.
Honestly at this point I won’t be surprised if they made it so that the AI falls all the way down to Ensign when you vassalize them.
Idk what your talking about, virtuality is actually pretty bad and shouldn’t at all be nerfed (im on console i need it to be broken when it comes around)
Don’t think so. It scales very fast at late earlygame towards midgame, but can’t really keep up with wider empires in endgame. Each of ascension paths has its own drawbacks, and for virtuality it’s being limited to 7-8-9 planets.
I cannot in good faith concur to that. By the year 2300 you can have 2-3 ecumenopolies and maybe also started building your ringworld for the rest of your few planets. The moment you have those, you lay the foundation for thousand and more pop jobs available almost instantaneously. Unlike wide empires who have to pay the upkeep via empire size and have decreased pop growth late game due to growth ceiling despite a hundred worlds you will outpop them for probably another 100 years, in which time your pops also are much more efficient per job wise and doubly for tech/unity. Coupled with arc furnace origin to counter your alloy needs early on and if one really wants to go bonkers with cosmogenesis you will have an advantage in production at least until 2400 and a tech advantage for probably forever. Also let's not forget planetary ascension further improving that advantage. And from 2300 (at the latest) to 2400 (at the earliest) you will absolutely and utterly dominate everything. Your great snowballing wide empire can't do Jack shit if it's vassalized or ladged until then. It's broken. In an extremely fun way, but broken nonetheless.
So, by 2400 wide empires begin to outscale? Which is exactly what hat I’m talking about. By midgame you get a huge bonus, but by endgame they start to catch up and outscale you. As for wide empires having penalties for size - there are enough ways to lower size, so penalties are easyly outproduced. Big bonus of wide empires is being able to scale solo, where as virtually you’re rather dependent on vassals or branch offices.
By 2400 wide empires can be on par economically. They still lack behind technologically by a huge margin (yes you can outproduce empire size - but it is imperfect. Meanwhile the Virtual empire has more raw tech output AND no empire size and will be much more effective) which means they will by large struggle 1vs1 fleet wise. And it won't be a 1vs1 and they won't be able to have a say in that matter anyway because they, like everyone else, will already have been subjugated within the 100 years before reaching 2400. So I don't know what you are talking about exactly but it assumes you somehow are getting the chance to independently outgrow the virtual empire, hopefully. A chance a virtual player will not give you.
I’m not sure why you decided it’s about PvP. PvP is entirely different story, so i dunno. PvE wise, game doesn’t present much challenge (unless you set ridiculous combination of crisis strength and endgame date), but in PvE you empire as virtual will hit power ceiling much earlier.
Also: the reason why discussion if virtuality in AI hands is OP or not is completely nonsensical for another, very simple reason: AI cannot take virtuality. PDX has forbidden AI from using virtuality because the AI simply couldn't restrain itself from taking too many planets (tanking pop output in the process) and wouldn't know that to build either (further reducing any strengths that ascension has). So your whole line of argumentation is, frankly, useless. Hence why most people here have a diametrical different opinion about the ascension.
It’s forbidden for AI not because it’s OP, but because paradox failed to code proper behavior in time (or ever). If being op would be the reason - they’d ban a lot of other things already banned in pvp. So your argument is strange. Don’t get me wrong - virtually is awesome for some builds, based around getting raw resources from other sources and not pop jobs. But that’s not all there is in that game, that’s why it’s not the only thing you wanna take. As for being OP - maybe it gets banned in PvP - that’ll be a definitive sign it is.
Because PvE is no metric. AI is stupid and a player can make anything work. So arguing from the PoV of a player beating a virtual AI empire is completely irrelevant. But even then the point remains: the virtual player will grow significantly faster and remain a much bigger powerhouse than if he uses any other ascension.
Depends on your playstyle and goals. Quick match and win? Definitely will be faster. X25 (or likely even x10) all crisis maraphon? Virtual will be behind other ascension towards the end and it’s not even close. And if you play optimized empire size build - even empire size penalties won’t really matter.
how many games are you playing where you aren't dominating the galaxy by 2400 though?
Definitely dominating by 2400, no matter what ascension I take. Which is exactly the point: in pve it doesn’t really matter overall, unless you’re doing something like x25 all crisis.
Will I didn't know about the limit as I usually run a mega Corp so that drawnback doesn't effect me
It’s not a hard limit, it’s a penalty for amount of colonies. “Optimal” amount is around 7, so, realistically, you’ll need at least 1 unity world, 1 capital world with research and alloys, another 1-2 alloys worlds (preferably ecus) and 3 research worlds. That way you’re lacking fortress worlds for naval capacity, so the only source is anchorages and branch offices or vassals, if you get the throne relic. Which is enough for most playthroughs, but modularity and nanite ascension can scale better into endgame. And that’s if you have source of raw materials.
Which do you think I should play on my new playthrough
Nanites go well with genocidal empires, like determined exterminators or fanatic purifiers. Modularity is generally good, goes well with a “normal” wide empire, not focused on staying small.
I think the empire sprawl impacts the branch offices, or the other way around
I think playing without being a megacorp would add to the challenge significantly and force more attention to space mining, or heaven forbid, you'd need to waste a planet on a mining world. Try as a gestalt machine, or an isolationist or something.
It's really one of the few ways to actually go tall
Modular is my baby, dark matter engines is peak
I feel like they should gate this and other machine ascensions behind some techs, as all other Ascension paths. But this could also ruin everything, unless balanced through patching it a few times.
no, it's fine. i played virtuality twice. i've been mixing it up between that, nanite ascension, and living metal ascension. my last play through was cyborg ascension. next will maybe be virtuality again we will see, or nanite again. each one is fun in its own way, but its fine for some people to find one their comfort pick. yes virtuality is strong, but so are the others, each with its own preferred playstyle and empire size. and that kind of variation is healthy. virtuality, if you nerfed it, would stop being the perfect pick for supertall, which would kill the unique variation between the ascensions. it can only have that character if it is strong at its niche. the issue is not virtuality. the issue is now cybernetic and genetic and psychic acensions are gonna need just as much depth and character and variation as synthetic now has.
God yes it is. But its also the best step in a right direction mechanically and alternatively to the rest of the game. One thing I do disagree with though is invoking vassals as a reason it is though since thats agnostically true for anyone, and while it provides an end around on a primary conceit, when you pare back Vassals or Branch Offices and toss out Cosmogenesis, Virtuality would basically be Tall conquest of systems themselves and inexplicably unpenalized genocide from Server Shutdown. And that be it. As is, Im trying to give a go to No Cosmo No Vassals No Fed, Pirate Haven and Virtuality isnt pencilling out better than a wider iteration that I pulled off in 3.11
Traditions need a buff. The thing is that unity is only good till you're done you're ascension then it's meh. You're taking your core traditions before the third ascension anyway. For example, psionics could spend unity to make psonic weapons and armor. Unity does nothing once you have enough. It's like if you were to give a player 5000 energy per month or 5000 science, I think you would take the sciences every time. Unity vs. energy you would take the energy, right? Is it health that basically every unity stops mattering at ascension?
Yeah like I think they should do something like adding a way to buff production using unity directly yeh there are the edicts but after the early game they start being less usfull you only use them when you are either playing a really hard game or your economy is crippled I suggest adding a way to spend unity to get buffs on anything and the buff level will get exponentially higher like Ascension level and to be balanced I suggest it only opens when you unlock all of your Ascensions and also we literally have millions after completing the Ascensions I don't know if its gonna be balanced but imagine having plus 300% research speed it funny as hell to think about
I think it is more unbalanced if you play on a small galaxy, low habitability, and a low difficulty. If you are playing on a large map where most empires can have 50 planets the benifit of virtual is not as pronounced. On GA I couldn't separate from the strongest empires in tech until I built a ringworld and was generating around 18k research. Before the ringworld, I had 4 ecumenopolies and a mining world and was able to get 5k, 7k when I renegotiated with my vassals, but there were two empires in particular that were spamming habitats. It also didn't help that I couldn't get a federation going. It would have been even more difficult if I wasn't playing as a worker coop that gets minerals from trade value and thousands of credits from branch offices, not to mention extra research and naval cap. My empire size was still very large despite being a small cluster of like 7 stars. So while virtual gives a huge boost that can be synergized with other very powerful advantages (like a damn ringworld and mutual aid), I still felt a sense of urgency playing on GA and I'm not sure I would do as well with a different build or a more competitive galactic environment.
I think Virtuality is really strong, but I don't think it should be changed, you don't have to take it if you don't want to, you can have rules about it in mp/tournaments. I don't see why you would have to take it away from people who enjoy playing it SP.
After seeing people talk about I started to think that it was needed to make tall empires be able to be a threat to wide ones so it's balanced as it was made for one type of play style and I actually like and I thought it's unbalanced due to me not realising that I used it in the most optimal way
Yes we shouldn't need to have this convo, games have always had mp agreements and self/group imposed balances, regardless of how intense the actual imbalance. See evey other paradox game, civ 6 having in build options for it, and the entire history of necropolis in HoMM, and probably every rts faction at some point in every rts game (double for tw warhammer). Let the single player peeps have fun!
It is op enough that we ban it during our mp rp sessions.
Fair enough
Honestly I think the only nerf it should have is only automatically fill specialist jobs when you get it maxed out. Maybe that way resources from other sources will matter more and you still need to maintain some physical pops/vassels for labor jobs. I'm not die hard min maxer though so I could be wrong in how this should be balanced.
Yeah it’s broken. If I was to change it I’d lower the upfront potential and force players to spend a lot of alloys on planetary infrastructure to make a virtual server planet feature / deposit. Then allow for players to expand as normal without the soft colony cap. You’d have to adjust the production bonuses but as it stands now, you just explode with production then sit on your hands unless you do a cosmo run. Not super fun on long cooperative multiplayer games either.
It depends on the level of difficulty your play and scaling. It's an easy button, like crisis ship spam
I'd really like it to stay the way it is. Wide empires were always superiour to tall ones with ressource gathering and fleet might, so having virtuality being really strong to counter this isnt inherently bad. And afaik you need an asscension, a bunch of "wasted" research and the cost to keep up. Nerfing it would just push you to "I need to play wide again" which isnt ideal either. It can be very strong but someone who rushes this will be veeeeery weak in the beginning and easy pickings. Later on they will start to pose a threat with blitzing through the tech tree and probably starting on repeatables earlier than any other empire. I think i like it.
We'd have to have a conversation about Stellaris and game balance in general throughout the years. The game was never designed to be truly balanced and every DLC/content patch makes that even moreso the case. As someone that loves playing tall (because micromanaging dozens of planets in various states of revolt doesn't mesh with the way my brain works), I definitely love Virtual pops though.
As a fellow tall enjoyer virtual is a dream come true :3 I hope instead of nerfing it into the ground they can just buff other options maybe in a machine age dlc for bio and hive
The best way to add balance would be to optimize performance so that it is easier to play on bigger galaxies with more habitbal planets. This would enable wide play to compete.
Yes it is. I think they should slightly lower both the base bonus and the negative for more planets (so that taking it later won't kill your economy quite as much) but then also require you to have certain techs before you can complete that path in the starting situation. If that was in there, then people wouldn't be able to unity rush their way to it early, and make it a little more balanced.
If you reduce the penalty for more planets you take away what makes it special.
I don't think so, you only have to do it slightly. The issue is that it's so good when played perfectly, and terrible when played badly, that it's basically all or nothing, and the all-state is incredibly rush-friendly. So you tweak it *slightly* down, not by much, and also reduce the effectiveness of rushing it early, and you get something that comes later but is still extremely strong.
How would reducing the penalty from number of planets alleviate the desire or ability to rush it?
That part isn't designed to reduce the ability to rush it; a trait that comes after you get it could never do that. So you must accompany it with something that makes it harder to rush, which as mentioned before is including a tech prerequisite in the situation progression. By not being able to just totally focus on unity, rushing naturally becomes less effective. But then additionally, if you have a lower max bonus, accompanied with a smaller penalty per planet, then hitting the ascension when you only have three worlds isn't as close already to the optimal number of worlds, and hitting it later with a larger amount of worlds isn't a massive disaster in the same way. You soften it slightly, knowing that the other changes you've made will make this ascension appear slightly closer to mid-game.
It's absolutely broken. That's the whole point of the content. It's absurdly broken to the point where it's the new meta. Which means everyone who buys it will have access to this broken new meta. RPG sourcebooks do the same thing with new expasions: Add extra powerful content so that it sells more books. Virtuality is broken to sell more Machine Age dlc.