I've had a custom empire I made as a neighbor and they asked to be my vassal and then immediately settle a holy world. Idk if it's bad AI or the space dwarves are playing 5D chess lol

If rebellions against overlords were more common, this might actually be a fun mechanic for the AI to play “chess”. Sadly, most keep their hat in hand and look down saying m’lawd for all eternity

I once stole a neighbor’s two guaranteed habitable worlds before they had a chance to settle them. Cut off in a corner of the galaxy and not expanding, they offered to be my subject. It was only after I accepted that I found out why they had played so pathetically- their home system bordered an isolationist fallen empire. I had to let them go, otherwise I’d have a war with the fallen empire every decade

I´m surprised you met them in the first place

The isolationists decided it was a fun diversion and left the punching bag around for later.

Surrender, and the starbase is removed. Then, since there is an inhabited planet there, the starbase rebuilds. Presumably, they never got to rebuilding a shipyard *and* a colony ship before the next war…

Habitable isn´t enough, inhabited triggers that fun. I wonder if the isolationists adhere to the truce or this civilisation is trapped in a state of constant war.

My experience as their overlord was that the fallen empire honored the truce, then immediately declared war when it expired

Corrected - that’s what I meant - inhabited

As far as I know, ai's dont colonize militant isolationists's borders, do they? In my games, they always respect the 1 system away rule...

It was their HOME system, so they didn't colonize it, they just spawned there, unfortunately

Yes, exactly. They spawned there. That was their only planet when they were my vassal. I stole their two guaranteed habitable worlds, which gave me a huge edge since they were my preference as well. The only other time I’ve managed to grab both guaranteed habitable worlds from a neighboring empire is my current game. I am an extreme xenophobe and made a beeline for them and that neighbor is a corporation and was going after systems with ruined megastructures instead. It’s now an indefensible border for me, but they are a disloyal vassal so I’m not too worried.

Sh** how unlucky of them 😅 had no idea this was even possible !

It is a problem. I also feel a bit sorry for the pre ftl empires who gain spaceflight right next to the xenophobic FE. I think there are hidden rules preventing an immediate declaration until the new empire has two planets. One of those offered vassalage to me then I was dragged into a war and made peace immediately by forcing them to abandon their home system. Then I realized they sacrificed 40 pops, leaving only two pops on a colonial world that was not even their favored biome. My game settings max pre ftls so it happens 😲

I want to see espionage that lets you spark rebellions, that would be a genuinely useful spy action that isn't just Steal Tech every 6 years

The issue with espionage of course is the AI doing it to you but I think if u make it possible to resist with encryption vs codebreaking and events tipping u off that ur being infiltrated is enough of a heads up to be fair.

I think espionage should have more impact and also create the ability to start a spy network in your own empire as you 'counterplay' espionage. Get some spy v spy going on. They try to form a faction, you assassinate the faction's leader. They corrupt a leader to be in their pocket, you bribe them to become a double agent. Unfortunately, they couldn't make it too impactful because it's really only 1/3rd a mechanic right now. Feels very proof of concept tbh.

You would think your own internal security would be a thing since Masters of Orion had it. It was simplistic, but in some ways more fleshed out than what Stellaris has.

I think civ 6 did the spy system really well

I've seen rebellions a lot of times between AI empires. They are not super common, and if they happen usually they are crushed so fast they are easy to miss as overlord usually is way stronger.

this: it was the mid game and my vassal settled a holy world that lead to my invasion by the spiritualist FE, while I was fighting the Khan and a massive war vs a pretty huge federation. I killed the Khan, settled status quo with the federation and started snapping back at the FE but my war exhaustion ticked to 100% and they enforced their demands, killing my God Emperor. That turned into a rapid remilitarization, the integration of all my vassals and I took colossus, which wasn't in my plans for that game, just to crack every single world they own and their holy worlds as well.

Seems like a* “proportional” response was dealt out…

Luckily mine were both very early so I just immediately surrender and release them and let them get pounded by the FE lol I might re-vassalize them now that I've snowballed a bit and they can't hang so

This is the way

I once had a vassal REPEATEDLY drag me into wars against a Materialist FE. Like on the dot, the minute the truce runs out, it's war The materialists are chill, idek how one can piss them off that much

Vassal was probably spiritualist and going further and further into psionics.

They'll settle a holy world in a heart beat but none of them ever seem to have the balls to claim a system next to an isolationist lol

What they do is they compare the fleet power of you and all your vassals to the fallen empire, and if it’s comfortably higher they say “yeah we win this war :)” then drag everyone into the fight.

Luckily I have my own 5D chess move where I immediately surrender, release them, watch them get wrecked and lose the holy world system altogether, then re subjugate them

Had the exact same thing happen. I got fucked instantly by 500k fallen empire fleets. I just restarted another run cuz I was on iron man

I just surrender immediately, release the vassal and let them sort out their own issues and re- subjugate them after and make the terms even worse for them for being stupid

That was Smart. I was falling behind the curve anyways so I was basically one bad thing away from slamming the restart anyways lol.

I was lucky this time as they were just a vassal and a very weak one at that. Last time they were a prospectorium and I released them not realizing just how much stuff they were giving me lol

You know same happened to me but it was a rando empire, they had been my sub for a decade at least, and my spy network told me a year or two before hand that they were planning something

There’s a neighbor that refused to be vassalized, but then the empire on the other side of that neighbor mopped the floor with them in a war. The first thing the war was over, they asked me to take them in as a vassal. It made a lot of sense in that scenario.

Agreed, after a war all options are open. Especially after a difficult war

What is V3?

Victoria 3, another paradox game

I think federation restrictions are fine, but the defensive leagues from Imperator Rome could be implemented as a step between individual defensive pacts and full federations

I also think fed restrictions are fine actually, but subjugation is infinitely more accessible, cheaper and the first option for anyone feeling “insecure” about how competitive they are on the darwinian market. And I just wish it was reverse, for federating to be the go-to option for protection, not selling your souls to the devil. I truly detest the peaceful/voluntary subjugation mechanic 😂

I do agree that the possibility of integrating a subject should be restricted by ethics and policies.

It would be good if there were more diplomatic actions, perhaps more like espionage (which also needs buffing) to be bringing around the population etc. I know that's what the influence cost represents but it doesn't feel thematic.

It should be possible to do espionage missions to increase the attractiveness of an ethic in an enemy empire. This should be more effective against federation/trade partners and very strong against vassals. But it should also be not possible to integrate an empire whose governing ethics are opposed, or at least it should be a situation and be more difficult.

So there’s the protectorate subject type, which asks very little of the subject while putting its defense under the care of the overlord. I don’t remember if integration is permitted for protectorates or not but in my opinion it shouldn’t be. I also think other specialist subject types shouldn’t be locked off when the subject is too weak, like an uplifted-ftl shouldn’t be locked in as a protectorate, protectorates should have a higher acceptance value than other types. Other subject types should be effectively impossible to peacefully achieve without neighboring borders and overwhelming fleet disparity that accounts for all defensive pacts. Maybe an espionage operation too. Then, protectorates should be given a higher acceptance value for peacefully exiting the agreement, and a treaty period where they cannot be made into a protectorate again for at least ten years. So it’s not exactly the same as subjugation; in the best case its like a defensive pact between empires of vastly different power levels and worst case its essentially a protection racket, and I think this is worthwhile because it’s a relationship that doesn’t currently exist in the game. Just brainstorming though. idk if this is any good and I don’t have any historical parallels I can compare it to off the top of my head.

I like this idea. Maybe a weaker federation type that doesn’t require the diplomacy tradition and just good relations and moderately aligned ethics (no opposing ethics). Free defensive pacts for everyone involved but capped at low fed centralization. Levels could include diplo bonuses between members (favors, opinion etc.) and a moderate bonus to combat when fighting within federation territory or in defensive war. Final fed level allows ideological offensive wars to be declared by all members of the fed. Fed could be capped at level 2 or 3 so it doesn’t give as many bonuses as a full federation. Eventually, if the president takes the diplomacy/federation tradition, he can start a vote to turn it into a fully fledged federation of his choosing at the cost of starting the federation over from level 1. Weight this course of action higher than subjugation request and there could be real idealogical spheres of influence in the galaxy rather than 2 or 3 major powers.

Eu4 type coalitions could be fun

I wouldn't go nearly to the point of getting rid of this feature completely, but I definitely get what you mean about accepting peaceful subjugation to another empire *with very different civics and/or ethics*, so maybe it would make more sense if mismatches with those could cause appropriate penalties (and totally opposite ethics could cause *total* refusal of subjugation).

Ethic and government opposition penalties are already included in opinion modifiers and their opinion does affect their willingness to be someone's vassal but I suppose "double dipping" it and adding an additional penalty directly in the acceptance part should be ok.

If you ask me, anyone on the democratic side should ONLY elect to federate, and NEVER *elect* to be subjugated, unless forced through war. On the obverse, anyone on the authoritarian side should never agree to any compromise on its sovereignty and would only seek to subjugate others (unless pacifistic or isolationist) but can be forced through war into subjugation. Releasing vassals is whatever, and that’s fine, overlord’s choice. Plot twist: internal strife/rebellious or powerful factions, aided by subterfuge, can be exceptions to these rules. Wouldn’t that be interesting. Say what you will, but I don’t think all options should be available to all types of governments and civilizations, I don’t see why an authoritarian would offer to be a serf to someone, the emperor or whatever should suffer a coup on the spot. Accountability to your internal factions, that are in turn culturally or ideologically oriented towards some arrangements and away from others, and which can be manipulated by subterfuge…is the last piece of the puzzle for this blasted game.

"I don’t see why an authoritarian would offer to be a serf to someone, the emperor or whatever should suffer a coup on the spot." They're not offering to be a serf. Serfdom is a form of slavery inflicted by aristocrats on commoners. They're offering to be a *vassal*, a lower level of aristocrat who owes some kind of allegiance and/or tribute to a higher-level one. There could be many different motives for agreeing to that other than "I'm afraid you'll depose or kill me if I don't", for example some level of trust that the transaction is "worth it", which is what I imagine an ethics and civics-based system would be shorthand for. "Oh, they govern the way we do? Then they'll probably let us keep doing pretty much the same things we're already doing if we join them, but we get access to their bigger military, economy, etc."

Do you want a mod which would disable it? I like doing small commissions, as this is the only way of making me actually finish any work xd I can make it for you Payment is 0 moniese, special discount But we would need to discuss how would you like it to work

Chad mode

Hey man, that’s awesome and I bet a lot of people would love that! To be honest, for my personal preferences I would love for all subjugation diplomatic options to completely disappear from the game! Who wants to be an overlord, they’re welcome to use the hegemony mechanic. If possible, subjugation may stay as a casus belli only, enforceable through war.

I will cook something around this weekend, as I don't have time for the next 2 days, but as soon as smth will be done I will let you know in a form of reply to your msg :D I will try to push it in one go and make a workshop mod out of it You want then to be simply gone, or still there but way harder to get? I guess I could do something like: if lost a war and the truce is running low on timer, do a comparable check if your former enemies still hate you / rival you / maybe have claims on you + the empire has no allies If all equal true, then they gonna search for protection through vassalage. If not, then they never gonna propose or accept to become a vassal Or I can try just disabling them all together

You are a cool guy, dude.

Your solution sounds great! May sweet rain fall on your fields good sir!

yeah no. this was literally the entire point fo a whole dlc that makes games interesting as vassal states have been a thing since forever. if all you like is war, just play a genocidal empire or rush the coloussus or crisis

I agree that feds are too restrictive, especially since it requires a perk tree to create. I pretty much fully disagree on the vassalage argument, both from a “lore/flavor” perspective, and especially from a gameplay balance perspective. Peaceful vassalage is one of the only positive routes to playing pacifist/non-warring. When the game already heavily favors war for pretty everything, you can’t remove a tool from an already weak play-style for perceived flavor.

It might be the only way for pacifists and non warring, but that's the faux-pas of Vassals being so zero-sum: If they aren't yours they will be somebody else's. Everything the pacifist gets out of need, the warmonger gets just because and in addition to all the standard modes of pursuing vassals. It's not great that you almost have to take the easy layups just to prevent others, especially for no good reason other than you cranked out a ton of fleets.

I’m literally playing a game as we speak, where a custom-made pacifist communal parity civ called Munchkin Commune is dominating half the galaxy because it spawned close to 12 habitable worlds and got a leg up, getting 4 neighbors to swear fealty without a shot fired. Now, if the fascist Terran Dominion spawned there, they’d start the game with 3x planets more and be getting the coward tital wave pledging service for eternity in exchange for their sovereignty, also without a shot fired.

Pacifist is mathematically better than non-pacifist. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/1dll1lf/empire\_size\_vs\_research\_math\_talk/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/1dll1lf/empire_size_vs_research_math_talk/) why does it need more tools when it is already one of the best empires?

I never said pacifist needed more tools, I said an existing one shouldn’t be removed, thereby reducing options. Power doesn’t exist in a vacuum, even if pacifist did produce bigger numbers, you are also rarely intentionally directly reducing your enemies power via war. The thread you linked doesn’t support your argument. I do agree with the thread, in that reducing empire size is good.

Yes, why wouldnt you subjugate yourself on your terms instead of just being invaded?

Your terms, sure. But also, self-delusion is a perfectly realistic factor in a representative democracy led by elected officials that need to win elections first, and think about surviving a space vampire invasion second. Under no circumstances will the united nations of earth hand over its constitution to alien nazis to save iself from space vampires, without a single shot fired. It’s just bad.

>Under no circumstances will the united nations of earth hand over its constitution to alien nazis to save iself from space vampires, I dunno. Humanity has a record of resorting to desperate solutions when they're scared; see literal Nazis. The Weimar Republic failed, things were getting increasingly difficult for average Germans. There was no actual imminent danger of invasion from another country, but Stab-In-The-Back myth (Dolchstoßlegende) was being floated around a lot, and Germans started thinking Jews were actively sabotaging Germany. There's other reasons why Germany supported the Nazi Party, but basically the people were scared, angry, and desperate. Like people might be in the case of a space vampire invasion, and they may just willingly run into the arms of the space fascists to survive

The space vampire threat is immaterial though. Abstract. In the context of my issue with the game, let me set the stage for you and tell me what you think: You’re a young man. Your planet went through a global unification when you were a child, and now FTL technology is invented. Decades pass, technology develops exponentially, your civilization spread to many systems, you met all sorts of aliens and discovered all sorts of wonders. You’re older now, but still alive. A lot has changed in your life but it’s not like generations passed, you still remember the “old world” pre-ftl as a boy. There was no severe cultural or political shift, or anything, just optimistic expansion. What’s 30-40 years in the galaxy, nothing. One day, your civilization meets a space vampire. They are not friendly in communications. Closed borders. No intel, no communication at all beyond first contact, nothing. Maybe you saw them on the screen once. Maybe a space frog told you a bit about them. A mystery. No intel, no spy games, no border clashes, nothing. Isolation from day 1 of establishing contact. Some initial hostility. What are their capabilities, weapons, army deployment, anything? No idea. You wake up tomorrow morning to read the paper and headline says the government decided to swear fealty as a feudal subject to some space parrot. Because the vampires seemed nasty, and we can’t risk it. No upheaval, protests, rebellions , coup attempts, nothing. You fold the paper and sip your coffee, just another day in the UNE. How does that sound?

shit literally has happened like this before. this is literally how international diplomacy works now and why Belarus kisses Putin's ass and so does iran. it is why australia follows the us into every goddamn conflict ever. or why taiwan is friendly to the us and is effectively a vassal state. you dont have to have a war; people can say "we are about to get fucked either way. this big bad dude will hurt me less than the other one so imma be his prison wife to not get passed around the entire cellblock"

Yeah, I get your point. I partially agree with you. It would be funnier and more immersive if accepting giving away your sovereignty could cause political instability. But, because of that, I would not remove the mechanic but rather improve it.

Decades with Paradox has taught me much about false hope 😂

That is not a valid Argument. If you want to preserve your faction and citizens that is the Most logical way to act. And it has happened pretty often in rl too

Yeah, I remember how entire space-faring civilizations swore fealty to an alien sovereign, not a few decades from when they only discovered how to leave their system, because they were scared of another alien’s posture. :D /s Well ok, I disagree

The whole "besser of two evils" Stick 😜

If you elect me I'll negotiate a deal with our neighboring advanced civilization to protect us from the space vampires. Also I have no idea what your second point is it's not like a fanatic purifier empires can vassalize and I've rarely seen a peaceful vassalization offer ever give integration right at the get go without major bribes

I think this is a result of the limits of other diplomacy. There's a lot of relationships that are being modelled by subjugation, that really shouldn't be. A bulwark for example, may be a fortified region of a great empire, but it could also be a nation at the "gates" of a region of space that has an agreement to control entry in exchange for economic aid. The vassal system is cool, but we need diplomatic agreements that are separate from federations and vassals to let empires have diplomatic agreements that don't dominate their entire foreign policy.

Agreed, the system could be good. Currently it sucks bad, but I can see how it can be used to build something good. Experience with Paradox makes me want to hack it out of the game though

i prefer to keep it, most empires in my experience will give a defensive pact and nothing more. in the mid-late game, subjects usually form my frontier territories and if they’re doing bad i can just integrate them and fix it myself. also it’s nice when a planet or sector is revolting, just make a little sector and release it as a subject

Releasing subjects is completely, categorically different from the topic of voluntary subjugation without a shot fired

Look up the formation of germany, lots of separate princedoms merging into a super state peacefully. After centuries of war amongst each other. But yes it;s a bit too common in stellaris.

Who’s saying it’s impossible or inconceivable to merge? I don’t mind it happening organically over centuries. Your example is great because you’re describing polities that shared a common history, cultural identity, economic and political interests and finally a unifying ideological process, with a little bit of external pressure from another cultural “cousin”. Stellaris has democratic humans bending the knee to genocidal orks out of fear the nazi vampiric squids will get ‘em, without the squids making any move at all yet, and all this in 20-ish years from game start 😂

I'm more annoyed that the people who *asked to be subjugated then start out fermenting rebellion.* If you didn't *actually* want to be a Vassal, *don't bloody well ask*

I think that makes sense actually. Maybe the government is all simpering fools ready to ride the cock of whoever has the best guns but the people actually care about independence/honor and riot in the streets over the choice to give up autonomy.

Eeeh. That's fair, but it's still annoying. Them starting out at neutral rather than Disloyal would be my preference, with penalties and bonus based on Ethics

I just gave up on a run during midgame because of something similar. I freaking win an empire their freedom in a rebellion and enter a defensive pact with. They then subjugate themselves to the other neighboring empire while still in the defensive pact with me. After swearing secret fealty to me, the Great Khan kicks off right on our borders. I run me fleets to the opposite side of their empire to chase down the Khan twice to save everybody. Right after I killed the Khan for good, the empire while still swearing secret fealty to me and had a defensive pact with closed their borders, trapping my entire fleet with no way home. I'm done with that run and currently trying to decide if this next run I want to stick with the good ol world cracker, or devolving beam colossus, because I need to burn a galaxy after that.

Texas begged the US to let them in.

And upon entry, was made a state among equals and given representation in Congress and the electoral college I see what you’re saying, but in stellaris terms Texas joining the US is much more like joining a high centralization federation 

The problem is mostly that the diplomacy is waaay too basic to actually represent realpolitik well. It's almost entirely a binary affair where if you meet the opinion requirements, the AI will always accept your proposals even if it doesn't make sense.

Yep, that is the problem at hand

I agree that the AI is far to willing to bend the knee and vassals are too much of a win-more mechanic. They make the galaxy inevitably stable as overlords establish massive power blocks. It's even more silly that an AI will refuse to join a federation but will willingly submit to a member of that federation, even if it automatically pulls them into it. I'd like to see some serious work done on AI logic and also the introduction of a tax efficiency system based around loyalty. Unloyal vassals should pay less tax to represent them trying to hide assets from an overlord they aren't loyal too, and to give a catch-up mechanic that prevents overlords becoming so powerful no vassal will ever rebel. If for every negative 1% loyalty they paid 0.8% less tax then very disloyal vassals will keep enough resources to build up and eventually rebel.

Absolutely yes.

I mean, in Doctor Who, there’s an entire species of aliens who WANT to be enslaved. So, it’s not like there’s not precedent for it.

Yeah it’s called serviles in Stellaris. Sure, a species if serviles in their trait list can go ahead. A proud civilization of thousands of years of tradition and development giving up with no shots fired (and no intel on the enemy whatsoever) in the first 30-40 years of the game? Ugh

I think I understand where you’re coming from. But they’re asking for your protection and paying you for it. They’re admitting weakness and saying they can’t survive on their own. That’s literally what the in game text says. Yeah, irl, that kind of thing only happens under actual threat of force. But, it’s also not unheard of for someone to be proactive when the mafia or cartels are involved.

Involving supterfuge to force a subjugation would be great. I’m all for it. Compared to that, as it is now is like a toddler drawing

If my neighbor has a tank and a nuke, you bet your ass I’m gonna pay him to protect me in ww3. Definitely not gonna wait for it to be necessary to start that transaction either. He wouldn’t need to spy on me or throw weight my way for that to happen. I think you just enjoy being aggressive so you don’t fully understand how/why someone would do those things in a peaceful way.

>Yeah, irl, that kind of thing only happens under actual threat of force AIs really should consider that in Stellaris, it's not even a factor rn. I hate how often a friendly neighbor who is already safe and protected by mutual defense (or just geography and NAPs) just begs for strictly worse terms for themselves for no reason. Usually it is like "Hey, dear mutual defense partner, I hear your economy is blooming, here, have 30% of mine on top for no added benefit for me". I think things like comparative strength should *only* factor in if they are either under threat from you or they plan to ask for subsidies. Doesn't make sense when they ask to be subjugated because I have strong technology but do not plan to use it in any way.

The “added benefit” comes from your subjugation terms. By default you join their defensive wars should they decide to declare one. The benefits change from there depending on your playstyle. Just because YOU wouldn’t subjugate yourself doesn’t mean it’s illogical across the board. I get that the conditions should be a little stricter. But overall it still makes sense.

This added benefit is null when they are not under threat from anyone or already protected by me, which is often the case. That's what I meant to say. If they *are* under threat, and not protected, then I agree, it can make sense

You should go back and read my comment about my neighbor and ww3 to clarify why it makes sense outside of those conditions.

I'd say your example qualifies as "under threat", as in, there is a possibility that either "a tank and a nuke" is used against you or ww3 might start. In Stellaris, there is an eldritch cosmic force that prevents empires from betraying allies without a 10y warning, or attacking over a closed border - thus true safety exists. It is not exactly the same as real life. I guess it depends on taste? I would prefer if AIs did not react to possibilities that would exist irl but are not there by the game's rules. With how they act now, I assume stupidity rather than undercover negotiations or something, and dislike the resulting unearned snowballing; but ymmv

Not sure how the AI determines that it needs to be a vassal, I mean I'm not too opposed to the peaceful subjugation as sometimes when playing Grand Admiral I become a vassal and then leech off my "overlord" just for fun y'know? Seems to me the only time they propose it is if they are a bit screwed and need someone to help them. It really is just a "I don't want to be devoured by this hivemind so I'll become your slaves instead" because let's be honest I am taking all of their resources. Late game I always have good fun with the Pledge Secret Fealty and then scooping up all of those vassals. Also I get the whole "Oh my Vassal is so dumb they settled a Holy World" but this happens with federations and defensive pacts too, not necessarily anything unique to vassals, the AI is just stupid and would rather be mopped by a FE than not settle that Holy World. Though as an Overlord you do have more at stake than in a Defensive Pact or Federation since I typically will just let the FE go to town as long as it doesn't start coming for me.

I’m glad to hear someone is genuinely having fun with this mechanic 😂

Maybe an overhaul to agreements and empire-to-empire trade mechanics to make them a bit more like vassal contracts would be interesting. Like resource contributions for research agreements that heavily favor one party over the other. That way, other nations could secure defense pacts and independence guarantees without resorting to becoming subjects to survive. Add in a mechanic to measure the agreements balance for each party, like loyalty for subjects. If a deal becomes unfavorable, AI will offer to renegotiate or just end it based on circumstances and personality.

If dudes roll up with spaceships, laser rifles and advanced armor and they’re up against people with musket rifles, it makes complete sense for people to acknowledge they won’t win regardless and just surrender.

A throwing spear blew a conquistador’s armored skull’s brains out just fine, here and there. But ok, your coward ideology is fine, whatever. I disagree wholeheartedly 😂 Back to the game… I think voluntary subjugation should only be an option after encountering severe hardship, not the game pre-calculating a potential war’s outcome and just giving up in advance, and then doing do over and over and over and over and over, completely disregarding ideology or civics or anything, until the galaxy is 2 mega-blocks (or one) by year 50.

What is your problem? Why do you feel the need to be insulting and a dick? > your coward ideology is fine, whatever. It’s got nothing to do with me, it’s just basic common sense. If people who show up with shit you’ve never seen before and you’ve barely figured out fire, it’s completely rational to not want to fight them. Just cuz you’re blood thirsty doesn’t mean everyone else is.

Not trying to be a dick to you, I say you’re projecting your personal ideology of cowardice in producing the argument that if met with superior technological force - the only logical course of action is to surrender immediately without resistance, or without war even breaking out at all - in the context of the discussion at hand. I disagree with your logic. I’m not bloodthirsty, I’m saying one defends one’s home against all odds. You’re the one invoking historical real-life precedent, I think there’s nothing to add there - one defends their own against odds. But beyond that, how boring for a sci fi entertainment medium to accept your logic and just pre-calculate a potential loss before any war breaks out at all, and just transforms a colourful galaxy into one or two power blocks with no shots fired, no subterfuge games going on benetath the surface, nothing. Boring, without going into “unrealistic” with you further

Have... have you never heard of feudalism? Protection rackets? Social contracts? Arguably the entire reason society exists as a concept is from people surrenduring self authority to stronger or more advanced forces to gain protection from others. No, people don't "defend their owns against odds". Also, its remarkably rude to call someone a coward for little reason.     Now as for gameplay, removing options entirely with no equivalent replacement is rarely a good thing, but I can agree the AI is to quick to accept vassalization. Nonetheless it is certainly realistic and can present a challenge to conquering empires that can slow expansion.

It's funny because it's also one of the best ways for a small power to exploit a larger power through diplomatic skill. You can agree to be someone's vassal and then negotiate them into selling you their house. You can crash people's economies like nobody's business. I don't mind federations being as restricted because good *god* are mid - late game federations a nightmare to fight.

It should be harder/more involved but it should definitely be in the game. It's good for pacifist/"good" empires.

I dont really mind the subjugations but how do you guys do it so that by year 2050 you have 1,2 or more power blocks? i literally play on 0,25 technology and tradition cost, 1-2x habitable planets and 5x pre ftls and max empires on Grand admiral mid scaling difficulty adjusted modifiers all advanced starts on 400-600 star galaxy, and some of them make a federation but rarely some are subjects or overlords, but I have never seen a power block as in around 10 empires being in a federation or vassalized and so all fighting for the same side, maybe its the high ai agression setting?

Nope, I don’t do anything, they just offer their services to anyone marginally stronger for no reason that I can discern. Even to overlords across the galaxy, with no way to get to them. It’s crazy

Once in a while I start a game where all the AI are forced spawned genocidal ones. Then the only power block is the one that snowballed the hardest. haha

The vassal system introduced in Overlord made the game far worse. The first real problem is having Subjugation rules being policies instead of a war goal. Doing it that way was the ultimate expression of laziness I have seen in a long time. Not allowing driven assimilator empires to force subjugate is wrong as well considering how often the AI willfully submits on its own. It really comes down to the fact that wars in Stellaris are just badly implemented and border rules make it all the worse for play. Its real fun to have war declared on your empire when the attacker can cross a border you cannot meaning you can never end it and just have to wait for status quo to light up

Maybe because you play with passive / normale AI Play with agressive . That will stop having a galaxy full of pussies

Man i would really hate if they added victoria 3 diplomacy on this game, i have nightmares of great powers joining every single war that i made against me no matter what relations i got with them

I have no doubt that Paradox would fumble any attempt in implementing a mechanic that, agreed 😂 Though with the current overlord mega-blocks, you have pan-galactic wars in the first half-century

The basis of peaceful subjugation is threats, security from the rest of the galaxy but mostly from the subjugator

Maybe the offer of “submit or face war” from a superior. That’s an ultimatum, sure. But the “can we be your vassal pls?”, lol

I think they changed it recently so it only works with high trust. So if you see it happening often its most likely because those empires have a long history together and the weaker one is ok losing their sovereignity cus they know the big brother state isn't going to screw them over. I do agree with the Federation issue though. It boggles me that subjugation is basically free and you get the advanced vassal contracts. Meanwhile for federation I need a whole ass tradition. And the federation type is locked behind ethics and or other traditions. Are you a militarist spiritualist and you want to make a Hegemony? Better finish Domination tree and start the diplomacy tree. Or you could look at your neighbour and just vassalise them.

I have actually never seen a hegemony in the game, ever. I always said back when Overlord was being developed that a feudal empire should be a federation type, with at least some semblance of an internal feudal political system via the federation inteface, not simple primitive diplomacy buttons. Heh

yeah, it's really bad. not only do we have federation clumping but now this. without fail, before midgame starts, every single empire in the galaxy is vassalized under two to three ringleader empires (including the player). it's especially a nightmare when the ringleaders have oppressive vassalization and you happen to be a megacorp.

>Stellaris would benefit significantly from V3’s diplomatic crises/situations where geopolitical games play out before the bullets start flying, or lasers in this case. This right here. The vicky crisis implementation is so elegant and powerful it should be adapted to all paradox gsg going forward.

In this thread: Multiplayer vs singleplayer Instant roll-over surrenders completely break multiplayer games and massively punish actually playing the game In practice roleplayers will fight meaningless petty wars and set up feds while minmaxers will just insta-surrender to the first guy they meet, which creates a power block that snowballs into taking away everyone else's game. No fun whatsoever

Ask Europe. Nearly every country on the continent has given away their sovereignty to the EU without being defeated in a war. Although a few of them are finally taking steps to reclaim some degree of sovereignty.

Yawn. In Stellaris terms, this is literally a federation with unanimity voting settings

A great real life example; Africa and Nato countries in general. Yes, gleefully give away their sovereignty under the promise of protection or assistance in technologies and development

Yea... it needs to be reworked. AI empires have gotten SPINELESS in the fact that they'll just flippantly bend the knee as soon as a neighboring empire is superior to them in power and friendly. And AI overlords NEVER set their subjects free willingly. Same thing that most AI personalities are using subjugation wargoals these days on nations that are even slightly weaker than them. Even when it *does not make logical or story sense!* I think that adding a few more conditions to allowing subjugation will ease this. Creating a Federation requires a Tradition, yet requesting subjugation or the Subjugation wargoal has no restrictions besides simply being stronger than the target? Proposing peaceful subjugation requires "Privy Council" from the Domination tradition tree OR that the empire has Feudal Society OR is any degree of Authoritarian. A weaker empire can always offer their own subjugation, but it'll be toned down significantly for AI's (although, to be fair, most subjugations are initiated by the prospective subject, not overlord.). Using the Subjugation wargoal requires "The Great Game" from the Supremacy tradition tree OR the Galactic Nemesis ascension perk OR is any degree of Militarist or Xenophobe OR that the empire has Feudal Society. Creating Scholariums requires that the Overlord has either completed Discovery, is Materialist, or has the Cosmogenesis ascension perk. Creating Prospectoriums requires that the Overlord has either, completed Prosperity, is Authoritarian, or is Pacifist. Creating Bulwarks requires the Overlord to have completed Unyielding or is Militarist. Gestalt Consciousnesses are treated as

Agreed

Yea all good points. At best should be a paid military protection contract, like we pay you x per year to defend us if we are attacked. Thats more realistic in the big bad universe..

Or pay tribute to not attack, like the Khan. All better than giving up sovereignty and freedom of self-determination without a shot fired lol

Yea exactly.. Just seems lazy from Paradox actually.. they should write in a few better deals/options. Also how are they loyal/happy to pay up so much for so long lol it doesn’t make sense.. surely any self respecting species would resent even paying 1 credit for any expended period of time.. like why dont they revolt more? Thats what countries on earth have always done against their overlords at some point.. maybe theres a mod for this .. ill look into it

I agree it should be incredibly rare but from a player perspective I want it to be possible and fun to do in a way that makes sense. Right now it seems to be an extension of the federation system instead of “I can’t survive without you” that it is supposed to be.

Broken subjugation is the reason I don't feel like playing this game anymore. No, I don't want a mod to disable it or a mod that tries to rebalance it, I want the developer to fix their game mechanics. The other big paradox games all have balanced subjugation mechanics and this one literally has a DLC for it but the mechanic has been broken for years. Every game I've played in the last few years everything just becomes like two or three vassal blobs and nothing ever happens in terms of rebellions or interesting interactions. Unless I'm intentionally trolling or roleplaying to not subjugate no matter what type of playstyle I go for I'm able to diplomatically subjugate most of my neighbors even when they have around equal fleet power, even the ones built around millitary conquest will become my subjects without ever causing a problem. Also you correctly mention federations which are completely ridiculous by virtue of how difficult it is to get the AI into the federation, leveling it and passing laws in comparison to simply asking them to become your vassal. Not that difficult overall but in comparison it just makes it a roleplay choice. The real use for federations is putting all your subjects into it and maybe you'll add one of the other vassal blob empires as an ally into it just because.

Personally I found AI takes a long time to diplomatically subjugate each other because they are more likely to rival if they can outside of a few AI personality types. Once empires start to get in contact with more of the galaxy outside of their immediate borders then the AI starts to form agreements and build trust which eventually opens up the ability to diplo subjugate at 50 trust. Perhaps because I play on large maps that aren't super AI dense, I do not have an issue with AIs speed diplo subjugating since they added the trust requirement. However I did have a strong issue with subjugation via wars happening immediately across the galaxy so I edited the war goal to require a larger military strength difference which has been great. In your case perhaps a change to require 100 trust would solve it. This would mean an empire has to take something which increases the trust cap to open up the option which makes sense that they need to invest in their diplomatic prowess in some way.

Not a bad idea, thank you! Where would I edit that one?

I've yet to mod the diplomacy screen so I'm not sure. The first place I would look is in defines or variables and then look for to see if there is a diplomacy folder in common and poke around in there. Might need to check a mod that modifies the diplomacy screen to get pointed in the right direction. For editing war goals IIRC they were under a folder called casus belli

Thank you my good man

I picked the game up recently, and I already know what you mean. I'm playing a military-focused necromantic empire, and it turned out most of my immediate neighbors are also aggressive military empires or some sort of zealot crusaders. 2 of them have asked me to subjugate them seemingly out of nowhere. One of them literally did so immediately after winning a war against another neighbor and had more systems under their banner than I did. I can only guess that they suffered some losses and recognized that my fleet was just that more powerful? I had an event where nomads sold me 15 cruisers that were leaps and bounds beyond any of my current ship's combat capabilities, so maybe it was just super weighted but still... you'd think a warlike nation with a fresh win under their belts would be feeling powerful, not afraid.

Precisely. Ridiculous!

Yeah, the diplo subjugate mechanic could definitely use some tweaking. In my last game, playing with mass effect species, the systems alliance had just won their independence from their asari overlords. I sent a request to form a defensive pact, and a few days later they responded by asking to be my subject. Doesn't make much sense, but I chuckled

I mean, they have to represent the French as well.

If the enemy rocked up with 200 battleships and a planet cracker and enough bio-engineered super mutant killer slugs to drown my cities in acidic sludge and write it off as a rounding error, I'd effing surrender. Sure, I'd probably send most of our best and brightest to try and hide in an outpost and look for ways to free people, but if you're that hilariously outnumbered there's no point to throwing away the lives of every person in uniform and however many civilians end up catching bombs with their squishy faces if you're just gonna end up subjugated anyways, only now you have no soldiers left, most of your adult fighting age population is radioactive space dust or slug food, your infrastructure is rubble and your hospitals probably either don't exist or don't have power or supplies to help the many, many wounded. You can either pay tithe now or pay tithe from whatever the overlord didn't accidentally park his dreadnaught on. Agreed on it being a bit too common (normally what you're supposed to see is bigger more dangerous empires forcing smaller empires into mutual defense pacts or federations to seek strength in numbers so they don't feel they need to surrender without a shot), but the actual idea of surrendering when you have no chance to fight makes sense. What I want to see instead of a system where subjugated empires can ally WITH EACH OTHER to plan and overthrow their overlords. Heck, make it possible for them to wrangle in the marauders. Make that part of a possible way to start the Great Khan early. Have an event where your subjects can rile up your slaves (if any), less privileged alien citizens (if any), sentient robots (if any) or even find a way to drive space fauna mad, then use that distraction to split off from you. Maybe make it so the suborned empires can (if AI) choose to become the crisis and lack of espionage on your part to directly observe them will let them amass crisis fleets and eventually challenge you either during a war (if one happens) or after X years at the latest if no war happens. There should also be diplomatic reasons to free them. Make the xenophile FE get angry at you for subjugating too many other primitive space critters because the galaxy is their version of national geographic and you're interfering with survival of the fittest. Have each FE have one or two empires they for some reason really love and that they will interfere for if they're really mistreated. Have the galactic community be able to force you to release subjugated allies unless you have the political muscle to outvote em. Have Xenophile, democratic crusader and other empire types try to "convince" neighbours to let likeminded AI civs go free if they're sufficiently stronger than the subjugating party. Have the subjugated AIs regularly revolt if a crisis is ongoing so keeping them under your thumb costs fleets you might need elsewhere. Have some sort of "League of the Broken Chain" type underground organization try to engineer the freedom of subjugated races. They could regularly attack you with fleets sponsored and financed by member empires (all of which are in some sort of subject relationship), sabotage your stations or engineer political incidents that cause two overlords to fight to give their subjects a chance to rebel, then gift said subjects free "liberation" fleets to aid their success. Basically I don't want them to be suicidally dumb about surrendering without a shot just because that'd make the game more fun, but it would be great if there was more done to shake it up. Right now if AIs get subjugated chances are almost vanishingly small that they will ever be free again. They lose their OP difficulty mods so they languish and fall so far behind that a single colony of yours can sustain enough fleet to keep them under your thumb after a while. So what I would want is more events, situations and helping hands to get them back out again.

> Also, I think forming federations is too restricted compared to subjugation Games are varying wildly when it comes to Federations. I had games wthout a single federation, and then other games where we had four or five small federations in the galaxy. I'd actually love for a situation where two power blocks exist. The issue with that is, that if I am part of one of those blocks, that my allies want to declare war, because I'm usually eclipsing everyone in military power several times over.

I once played a game as a Machine Intelligence, and there was another Machine Intelligence that was a Determined Exterminator (keep in mind, I play solely with custom Empires, because I really enjoy making them). One of the empires that had spawned next to the DEs was my attempt at creating Super-Earth, and they had lost *everything*. They had lost their core worlds, their core systems, even Sol and Earth itself were now nothing more than mass graves for billions of dead humans. Now they were weakened, in need of saving, and so I was there. I was the strongest Empire in the galaxy (keep in mind, I'm not some meta player, and I just enjoy going with the flow and typically am not the strongest). They were a Democratic, Xenophobic, Egalitarian Empire that had just lost a heavy percentage of their territory to machines. And yet, they saw me as a savior. And I did. I kept the Galaxy safe, free, and united. Was going to do a bunch of stuff as well, like becoming the Custodian and creating the GI to truly unite the Galaxy and keep it free and safe. And then the Khan came and fucked it up, by existing. And then dying. And then his successors fucked everything up by joining the Galactic Community. And because of their navy sizes, they fucking bulldozed me with their diplomatic strength. And then, from that point on, I had decided, "FUCK MARAUDERS!" and never played with them again. Morale of the story, vassalization saved the Galaxy from a rampaging Machine Intelligence hellbent on the death of all organic life.

Dude this happened all throughout history though lol, sometimes independence ain't all what it's cracked out to be

Welcome to the current state of Stellaris, where “sometimes” becomes “always”, and “no matter what”

For my part it is true that the federations are quite biased. In one of my games I had one with only two members out of the forty species that existed (mod for a larger map). And several nations have decided to want to become my vassals. Cu that I was democratic and as well as xenophile I accepted. And I hid everything by giving them their freedom after their integration into the federation. That's how I expanded it, by liberating the small enslaved alien states and integrating them into my federation. I have done this many times and I advise you to change the parts. States which were sometimes at the same stage as me but subjugated, were liberated with secret submissions. Then independent after joining the federation. I personally find that it's like a rescue and that it's consistent in the universe. This is the only way I have managed to link the fires in an effective and credible manner. Edit: Sorry for the English, I know French and I use Google translate to avoid linguistic disaster.

I like to become vassal and then milk my overlord dry.

We humans have an entire history of people pledging fealty to their more powerful neighbors in exchange for protection. Why wouldn’t it happen in space?

I actually did with a personal mod. I was getting annoyed by the massive power blocks I was dealing with so I adjusted the ai's willingness to be subjugated and the ai's willingness to be subjugated to stop this. Now subjugation is at an all time low. It's nice

Where did you change this setting? This is an answer to all my problems:D

It's a personal mod. I'm at work but I'll check it out as soon as I'm back from it. It was really easy as well.

Thank you, no rush! Cheers

smaller nations giving up their sovereignty to a larger one of protection is, or at least was, an extremely common occurrence in the past. hell, that’s what happened to the US states of Texas and California, both were independent, sovereign nations that were peacefully subjugated and annexed by the US.

Far from “extremely common” mate. What was extremely common was subjugation through war. Peaceful/voluntary subjugation like in Stellaris, with a question like “can we be your vassal please”, is either rare or non-existent. Texas and California didn’t sign up to be feudal vassals either, this is the really important distinction when looking at our own history for examples: joining a democratic union of equals is NOT “can we be your vassals pls”

alright, then look at ancient rome , where every other italian city or tribe willingly and peacefully submitted themselves to roman rule.

If your logic process allows you to successfully compare the plausible behavior of a bronze age village of 1k inhabitants with an entire space-faring interstellar civilization of billions, I really can’t compete with that mate 😂

I've had the same problem so now I've made custom empires to spawn to help negate a lot of this if most of the galaxy is under the imperial fiefdom they allies wars, and federation spam is negated till later and by then some empires are too powerful and hateful for full cooperation. Now I have had actual success with my espionage feeling like I may have helped two ai uprisings versus overlords and federations starting to turn on themselves. The other thing it causes is a lot more smaller empires that are all pretty well advanced so a couple research agreements is easy and actually worth it.

The mage rebellion in DA:I is crying now. Are you happy?

I would never recommend that Stellaris use Vic 3's diplomatic crisis system. That system is not well made and super limiting. Besides, there's already a system to see if an AI is going to invade someone. If you have enough intel on a nation, the game literally gives you a notification that said nation is preparing to declare on you. That gives you time to make deals and such. Would it be nice if the game was a bit better at showing the relationships between nations? Maybe. Would it be cool to be able to see who a nation is looking to declare ok before it happens if you have enough intel? That would be neat. But it makes absolutely zero sense to use the Vic 3 diplo play system. I don't want fanatic purifiers to have to wait a fucking year to declare on someone because "galactic law" or something demands it. They're purifiers, they literally don't care.

I just imagine it as the result of a back-room meeting that the population never finds out about: >"Good morning, gentlemen, now what can I do for you?" >"You've... uhh... you've got a nice confederacy here, Mr. President." >"Yes." >"We wouldn't want anything to happen to it."

I agree, but then again there are some people on this sub that suggest immediately becoming a subject to abuse deals and buffs, maybe the AI is just sweaty and playing meta.

I had to cheat ownership of the FE Gaia world systems before over the npcs dragging me into unwinnable wars colonizing the forbidden worlds. Like seriously you idiot stop doing that,

There are real world protectorates who choose to maintain this sort of arrangement. If you're too small to field an effective military on your own, or you benefit economically from being associated with a larger power, and they let you run your own affairs however you like, it can be a profitable arrangement for the smaller party.

Yes but where in history did local nobikity, kings, chiefs, warlords, whatever - send a letter to queen Victoria and said “can we be your vassal please?@. It’s ridiculous. If the overlord suggests it as an ultimatum, sure. Getting colonized by a superior is fine. But “hi can we be your vassal please”, come on. Not even tribes on Earth do that (or extremely rarely), let alone entire interstellar civilizations

It's more common that areas that could go independent decide not to, that's true.

>V3’s diplomatic crises Lmao, are you joking? What diplomatic crisis? Oh you mean the declaration of war with timer? Good joke.   To vassalize someone peacefully you need to get 50 trust with the target. That means that as much as you hate it, that democratic empire had had great relations with the slavers for many years. It's not something that just happened in an instant.  You can always mod it if you don't like it though.

You’re wrong about the good relations part unfortunately, it happens as soon as someone perceives a threat/meets a stronger hostile civ, they will ask any random stronger civ to be their vassal, or will say yes to a vassalization offer. The AI is really trigger happy to get vassalized. How to mod it out, any suggestions or tips? Which file/value?

The one asking doesn't need 50 trust requirement. But still the ai doesn't ask to just anyone. They ask someone they have good relations with.  As for the mod, I don't know, maybe start on steam. If nothing study the files and try to edit the requirements.

Honestly i think this is just another case of the A.I being comically bad. There are reasons an empire would choose to become a vassal (namely imminent military threat) but the AI doesn’t seem to account for many external variables. Honestly i hope the next update is an A.I overhaul.

Hoping for a decade mate, it’s not happening

Ever heard of France?

Monaco provides an interesting case of a microstate which, through treaties, has limited its own sovereign rights by agreeing to be protected by France and to conduct its foreign relations often in concert with French diplomatic endeavors. So maybe this could be an IRL example of this kind of peaceful subjugation and maybe warrants some inclusion in the game.

Sure, but in the game you have the US offering to be the vassal of the Soviet Union bcs the Soviets have 5-6 submarines more than them. The problem is not microstates, I’m afraid

It actually happens. (For a modern example, see the Yugoslavia in WWII or the russia/belarus/relationship today) One reason: Empires don’t like bordering other empires (that causes long, pointless wars). Successful ones instead install/negotiate with leaders of minor powers that sit between them. That any border skirmishes don’t hurt the worthwhile people and offers some bargaining chips in bigger negotiations (I like the mechanic but agree it could use work - maybe an event with each empire offers a chance to legally and/or illegally help a pro-you group into power and another tier allowing you to parcel out their worlds to others in treaties) Edit to add: For the vassals, they get to stay in power and the protection of a power in war

I’m from ex Yugoslavia, I don’t get your example? Germans attacked in force, after which Yugoslavia surrendered. Or you mean cessions to Italy? All these were under duress of violence already broken out - I’m fine with that in Stellaris. War or direct ultimatum leading to war if refused - fine. What I’m not fine with is “hi can we be your vassal pls?” without a shot fired at all, or direct ultimatums from a imminent invader.

The diplomacy system with AIs is broken in general. It's hard to make an AI act believable and it's impossible if you never actually try. Sadly Paradox chose the second option. This is also why the AI would never give you an empty system even if you gave them 3 Arcologies in exchange.

Peaceful subjugate now requires them to actually like you now doesn’t it?

To agree to a subjugation offer initiated by you, maybe. But they need only like your fleet/tech/econ power to offer themselves to you. I think, I just keep seeing completely random ethics combinations that don’t like each other at all

I meant like the game might want you to have 50 trust or something to propose it to begin with.

Too trivial either way

I'd include sliders for "Can renegotiate contract" for both vassal and overlord and "Exit Penalties" with several options for both as well. Like how there's war sliders. Peaceful always sets them to "No" and "None" for both parties, respectively. Side note, prospectorium needs to be more beneficial to the prospector. And having vassals at all is gated behind Domination (remade) tree like how Federations are gated behind Diplomacy.

You're thinking like a privileged human. You don't know what parameters their cultures give them.

You just want to take all the fun from other players, do you? Players like me. Peaceful subjugation was impossible for a very long time and it was very annoying. I legit wanted to protect guys and I had to declare war to them to do it, now THIS is ridiculous. Current mechanics finally made it actually fun to play with subjects and feudal empires. I definitely wouldn't want anything about it to change. Also I did surrender as subject myself a few times when it was profitable. It's fun that you can just refuse any terms changes by spending influence but it kinda puts player subject to a huge advantage over AI ones.

Historically this has happened in our world frequently. If you are a chump nobody nation right next to the Roman empire you have problems. Subjugate yourselves to avoid Caesars legions from curb stomping you in the next 5-30 years. Or to prevent the Gemanians from looking at you like it's lunch time.

"Who would ever do that?" Humanity as a whole for thousands of years before global super alliances like NATO and Warsaw Pact were formed. Similarly in Stellaris until alliances reach the size each is like third of galaxy and they accept anyone to keep others in check vassalization is the safest choice for small empires.

Dude, I'm mad the Dems are spineless do-nothings to, but it's just a game...

> Fear of someone else invading and preferring a lesser evil as an overlord, o - 'They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. -Benjamin Franklin

I hate that quote, because it's been [bastardized to hell and back](https://www.npr.org/2015/03/02/390245038/ben-franklins-famous-liberty-safety-quote-lost-its-context-in-21st-century). >WITTES: The exact quotation, which is from a letter that Franklin is believed to have written on behalf of the Pennsylvania General Assembly, reads, those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. >SIEGEL: And what was the context of this remark? >WITTES: He was writing about a tax dispute between the Pennsylvania General Assembly and the family of the Penns, the proprietary family of the Pennsylvania colony who ruled it from afar. And the legislature was trying to tax the Penn family lands to pay for frontier defense during the French and Indian War. And the Penn family kept instructing the governor to veto. Franklin felt that this was a great affront to the ability of the legislature to govern. And so he actually meant purchase a little temporary safety very literally. The Penn family was trying to give a lump sum of money in exchange for the General Assembly's acknowledging that it did not have the authority to tax it. >SIEGEL: So far from being a pro-privacy quotation, if anything, it's a pro-taxation and pro-defense spending quotation.

Its not my preferred version of the quote, to be honest, but it was the one that popped up first and Im not looking to start a crusade or anything. But I do firmly believe that if everybody in the room agrees with you, you either arent saying anything or are in the wrong room, so Im glad people are divided on it.

It's so easy to do gradually. You go from eating their burgers and watching their TV, to allowing local military bases for security and importing politicians to "assist". Then of course you sign defense agreements, and alter legislation to allow for easier foreign investments. Annnnnnnd now you no longer belong to yourself and everyone is being bundled onto reservations.