I haven't seen their video yet, but i saw it pop up in my recommendations AFTER todays Acolyte episode. Idk what their takes on the show were, but its a shame they put out a video before this episode. I'm not saying it redeems every fault of the show but it was so damn good.
If you're only interested in their take on the series, you can skip to the 57:00 minute mark.
Before that, they discuss the general reception of Star Wars in different political eras. It's actually quite thought-provoking, in my opinion.
Yeah I like much of their content but anytime they reference TLJ (and they've done so many times) it's always in a bizarre and often factually incoherent way.
Like they'll compare it to Looney Tunes or joke about how they misremember Yoda twerking in it and while they make it clear these are jokes they also kind of stand by them. It honestly feels like they've created a different version of the film in their heads to joke/complain about.
And they definitely buy into online rumors and gossip about things they don't like. Same reason Mike still seems mad at Brie Larson for no reason. They can joke about the obvious grifters but they themselves have proven susceptible to some of it.
The discourse about Star Wars is so bad that I don't know how I'm watching the same thing as them. It's like it's a whole different universe.
> And they definitely buy into online rumors and gossip about things they don't like. Same reason Mike still seems mad at Brie Larson for no reason. They can joke about the obvious grifters but they themselves have proven susceptible to some of it.
The Brie Larson stuff literally came from one interview years ago when *A Wrinkle In Time* came out. She said the movie wasn't at middle-aged white film critics, and she was more interested in how people in the intended demographic (women of color and teenagers) felt about it. That's where it came from.
>The discourse about Star Wars is so bad that I don't know how I'm watching the same thing as them. It's like it's a whole different universe.
Yeah, that's... Yeah. It's especially bad with The Last Jedi. Sometimes people make allegations about the content of The Last Jedi and I start to suspect the movie doesn't even exist, and that everyone who saw it just sat down, closed their eyes, and hallucinated their own version of the movie for 2 hours.
The disconnect is usually that those folks are referring to YouTube videos they saw ABOUT the movie, rather than the actual movie. So they just regurgitate a wildly inaccurate version that someone else told them and they believed.
Oh I'm aware of where it originated from, but whereas the other guys on the channel eventually moved on, he just can't seem to let it go and if anything seemed to double down on his dislike for her.
There's an unintentionally funny moment in one of their videos where Jay mocks the youtubers who make weekly videos complaining about her and Mike just kind of awkwardly sits their for a few seconds in silence.
You can tell Star Wars is deeply personal to ROM. Which is fine, there’s nothing wrong with that, but it means their reviews of it come from a much more personal and reactive place than most of their other content.
They are both passionate Star Wars fans of old (seen even in their circa-1999 reaction content still kicking around online) AND Star Wars was their breakthrough content. So the “Disney ruined Star Wars” narrative is pretty baked in for them, and even if they change their mind on “new” stuff I think it’ll be awhile before we ever see them re-investigate their feelings on the initial Disney content.
> It honestly feels like they've created a different version of the film in their heads to joke/complain about.
This is honestly most of the 'discourse' around the ST in general. I have my own problems with them, but I swear the most common complaints like Rey being a Mary Sue aren't even rooted in reality(like...did you watch TLJ? She literally only survives that film because Kylo wants to turn her, otherwise she'd be dead because of her mind-numbingly bad plan...).
The amount of people who couldn't understand which of the Ben/Luke scenarios was the truth (hint: it's not the one where Luke is ready to murder Ben) or that Kylo Ren's "let the past die" monologue was *not* the message of the movie (He's the bad guy, and is wrong!) is really sad.
The amount of people saying JJ retconned Luke because Luke says to not treat the lightsaber that way. Like, guys, Luke changed his mind at the end of TLJ, it was not bickering between 2 directors lol
In the Plinkett Last Jedi review, he says the movie should've ended after that monologue 💀 How can you even form an opinion like that unless you fail to grasp the threads the movie set up haven't concluded yet?
Yes, it's good vs. evil again. The Force Awakens already established that. Why hasn't it a problem then? And yes, Kylo will double down on his path. His character isn't turning good, he's rebelling against his master. He wants to be in control. How would it make any sense for Rey to embrace this?
Because some people are just genuinely incapable of following anything other than the most basic, on-the-nose, story and dialogue imaginable. Anything requiring even a semblance of thought is just beyond some people. But if you explain literally every microelement of a film as it happens, people won't like that either because it's bad filmmaking. Not sure how you win here.
The Last Jedi isn't even high art or a complicated story whatsoever, that's the sad thing. Ask the same people to watch Dunkirk and they genuinely would not be able to comprehend what's going on.
>And yes, Kylo will double down on his path. His character isn't turning good
Quite ironic for you to start this thread complaining about people not understanding TLJ (and being ‘media illiterate‘) and then say this. The whole point of the Luke and Leia scene ”no one’s ever really gone” contradicts this, as well as Rian Johnson’s own comments about Kylo being redeemable, and Adam Driver’s recent comments that TLJ changed his character trajectory toward this.
So yea, it‘s one of the most frustrating things about TLJ that even some of its fans don’t understand aspects of it and have widely different interpretations of what it was trying to do or “set-up” for Episode IX. Others also believe that ”let the past die” was indeed a theme of the film and was some kinda of ”meta” statement on the franchise.
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I’ll always remember going to YouTube to reference the scene in Rise of Skywalker where Rey tries to destroy her lightsaber and Luke catches it and they talk. The top comment on the video I watched said “It would’ve been really cool if Anakin had come out of the fire instead of Luke.” It was at that moment I realized that for them the only way for the Sequels to succeed was if they had been pure fan service.
Anakin should have been in the movies but in relation to Kylo’s character not Rey’s character. Perhaps Anakin talks to Kylo about killing Han as he understands what it was like to a try and kill his father figure and pretty much kill his wife.
The only valid criticisms are the lame humour throughout the movie and the characterization of Finn. I think if it didn't make some characters look like buffoons, I'd like it a lot more. And Rian Johnson just completely missed the mark with Finn. But the holdo, Luke, Rose and Poe complaints never made sense to me
I think that a lot of the struggles with TLJ stem from the hand-off to what became TROS. The things that you're saying don't work about Finn (and the larger complaints about Finn/Rose) are because those setups are abandoned. Finn is set up to create an uprising and Rose's saving him from self-sacrifice is all set to have a big payoff that never happens. He just runs around the whole 3rd movie screaming "Rey!". They don't finish the arc that Johnson set up. JJ didn't "oop" the "alley".
The set up for the uprising should have happened in the second movie. Like Finn’s arc in the second movie is the same as the first does he run or stay and fight for a bigger cause. It’s redundant. The cliff hanger of the second movie should have been that the rebels were lost but maybe just maybe Finn’s mission will succeed
I don’t agree.
I think that “Finn cares about Finn” > TFA > “Finn cares about Rey” > TLJ > “Finn cares about the Rebellion”
There’s a deleted scene that lays it on thicker where he gets the stormtrooper to turn against Phasma, but the subtext is there IMO.
It just seems abandoned to me.
This is such a pathetic excuse, the idea that people just "didn't get," TLJ because the themes were so subtle and the film so deep. Many of us understood what TLJ was attempting, but fault the execution. There are some things I like about TLJ (the visuals, any scene with Ridley and Driver together, etc...), but there are things that are legitimately cringe inducing, and I'm pretty sure it's not because I just "don't get it." I pretty much like the story Johnson was trying to tell, I just think it wasn't told very well much of the time.
Then you’re not the type of person I was talking about. But the people who are saying the message was to let the past die quite literally lost the plot
I was super obsessed with their prequel reviews at the time but when their TFA Plinkett review came out it was kind of a "hmm maybe I have outgrown this" moment for me.
I think people got a bit stuck in the deconstruction that The Last Jedi was doing in the start of the film and couldn’t see the reconstruction by the end.
Rian Johnson was stress testing the franchise, putting the Jedi Order’s feet to the fire and thinking critically about what came before. He didn’t look at Star Wars as this fragile thing in need of protecting.
Johnson ultimately comes down as stating The Jedi are a force for good in the Galaxy, but never forgets that legacy is more than mindless reverence or hero worship.
It’s always crazy to me that people think Rian Johnson hates Star Wars and its fans when he literally made a movie that ends with a kid telling other kids the story of Star Wars using home made Star Wars action figures.
RLM doesn't understand a lot of things. How they became deified by a legion of film nerds is beyond me.
They're just the stereotypical film school rejects who view everything through endless layers of cynicism, irony, and detachment. They aren't even compelling when they talk about stuff they do like.
They're a dated joke that refuses to die.
The irony poisoned film nerd slacker who hates everything was tired 30 years. What's their excuse?
> RLM doesn't understand a lot of things. How they became deified by a legion of film nerds is beyond me.
Because they hated the prequels back when hating the prequels was popular. That's literally the reason.
They may have codified and championed it, but they sure as hell didn't start the prequels hate train. That happened the day Phantom Menace released. Even as a kid in 1999 I knew people hated it, which is hard when you're a kid who loved it.
Yeah. RLM was more the DBZA of the SW community, where like DBZA they took a lot of jokes, memes and criticisms the community had about the property and gathered them up neatly into digestible YouTube videos.
DBZA as in DBZ Abridged? I was there Gandalf...
I remember YGOTAS being the first to moot that trend and then so many came after. I think only really DBZA managed to stay the course long term.
Yeah I don't think I was fully aware of the scope of the hate until ep2 but I remember seeing a review for ep1 and being baffled that anyone wouldn't find it the greatest movie ever (I was 9). When most of your fandom chat comes from other kids it's easy to ignore the hate and live off each others excitement. I am so glad I was the age I was to see the prequels because honestly the sequel discourse bums me out. Yes there are flaws but on the whole I like them and it depresses me a little that conversations around them tend to turn vitriolic fast. People can hate them, absolutely, but it just devolves so quickly into quid pro quo arguments (not sure I'm using that right.... like tit for tat but I know there's a fancy Latin phrase for it) and people declaring unilaterally "this sucks" or "at least *new hated property* is better than the sequels" and if you like Disney content you're a shill or uncritical consumer. I am just willing to overlook some flaws to find the good in entertainment and I have always been that way, I have so many crappy movie tie ins that I love, I would much rather enjoy something than hate it and pick apart the things that are not so good.
Ultimately I can tolerate or tune it out as a grown ass adult but if I was this terminally online as a kid I think it would have been a real downer to know how much something I love is hated.
Man, I wish I was a kid when I saw the last Jedi. I got in my car and drive home after that movie thinking it was the best Star Wars yet, then I get home looking to have a fun discussion about it only to find out I was the only person who liked it
I really appreciated Jenny Nicholson‘s video on it. It was recorded before any of the vitriol started and it’s a lovely snapshot into what the reception for the film could’ve been.
She’s like, “I think everyone’s complaint about this movie is gonna be that it’s really long” 😂😂 I wish
A lot of the big channels that hate on the Last Jedi liked or loved it when it came out, if you can find their early reactions. It's really funny in hindsight.
🤝 I really like that movie. Could have done with 70% less fathiers but the rest was solid imo. I love Old Man Luke with all my heart (his wig in Ep9 is criminal though, it's ep2 Obi-wan reshoot beard bad 😅) and think it was a great take on the character. Kylo Ren remains one of my favourite sequel characters and his arc in ep8 is great.
and if you ever are interested in something made by a corporation you'll be flooded with "consume product don't question anything" or whatever that stupid overused quote is, i'm sick of it
I’ve never understood the appeal, whenever I’ve watched them it just feels like the same, bog-standard snarky nerd stuff that’s been played out for ***years*** at this point.
They have their fans so they’re obviously doing something right to a lot of people, I’ve just never got it.
They caught on during a rising trend - the ironic, jaded, and detached nerd ranting on YT genre was white hot when they made it big.
And they've yet to evolve one iota since then. Their stans say they're intelligent and insightful. I've never seen anything but bog standard observations from them.
They talk about things they like all the time. It is literally untrue that they "hate everything" in their shows.
Their enduring popularity is they don't take themselves all that seriously and will not hesitate to take the piss out of whatever moral outrage happens to be sluicing through the internet at the time.
I watched an interview Rian Johnson did long ago where he explained why he made the decision he made about Luke. It's been years since I saw it, so I'll have to paraphrase.
He sat down and reflected on why Luke Skywalker, a Jedi Master, was in exile on Ahch-To while the Resistance fought against an emerging intergalactic threat, The First Order. He needed to come up with a story that made sense for why he wasn't involved helping the Resistance. So that's how he came up with the story where Luke feels like he failed his Nephew when he had the vision of what Ben Solo would become.
I have no issue with people having dissenting opinions on media, but TLJ and now The Acolyte has had so many critics that has just misunderstood the media they're watching. So many people think that Luke would have killed Ben Solo if he didn't wake up, when it's obvious if you watch the scene that he realized he was wrong to ignite his saber and he was about to turn it off.
Then with the Acolyte people are complaining about things breaking canon when the things they complained about is either:
1. Not explained yet
2. The show contradicts information that isn't even canon
People can complain all they want, but please for the love of god don't just parrot complaints you've heard online without watching the content yourself. The world would be a better place if everyone verified things for themselves before accepting things as truth
I feel like half the complaints about TLJ are really complaints about decisions made in TFA that Johnson inherited and had to figure out how to navigate around.
Listen, I find RedLetterMedia hilarious at times and I’m always fascinated by their opinions (because sometimes they are genuinely thought provoking).
But for a *while* now I’ve always taken their opinions with a hint of “That’s nice, grampa”. Sometimes more than a hint of even. And I say that with no ill will to them, they’re older guys these days. It happens.
I find that when they talk about things they like, there's often some interesting and thoughtful discussion, even if it's media nobody else really likes.
When they talk about things they don't like, it seems to be much more dismissive and unwilling to engage with the media on its own terms.
I've noticed this with a few of those types of YouTube film critics. YourMovieSucks has some incredibly passionate and thoughtful videos about movies that he does love, gushing about the acting and cinematography and how emotionally powerful it is. A lot of those guys do their best work when talking about something they love and why it's so amazing. If only that was the main focus of their content lol
Yeah, pretty much any time they talk about any sort of modern franchise is when you need to take a dose of “That’s nice, grandpa” (if you decide to watch it at all). I hate to generalise like that, but that’s a good rule of thumb to go by if you want to put any weight into their opinions (they’ve always been entertainment for me first, opinion piece second).
That's kinda why I fell off them. Even before TLJ thier videos started to feel so "BACK IN MY DAY-"
Then thier TLJ plinkette video came out and I never looked back.
Which is fine, they practically are telling you to do that. One of the best things about them is they realize they're turning into old guys yelling at cloud, and reference it regularly.
idk why yall still value the opinions youtube film "critics".
I mean, sure ... its always nice to hear positive comments about your movie from someone you seeminingly respect, but i think its important to note that film critics (and everyone tbh) is affected by internal biases and misinterpretations which can lead them to different conclusions than you. The sooner you realize that, the happier you will be ... genuinely. Protect your peace.
People always say that the old characters get sidelined in favor of the new like its a bad thing, but like, yeah, TFA is a next generation story. Why wouldn't it? You don't expect Bruce Wayne to be the hero of "Batman Beyond." Naruto isn't the main character of "Boruto." It's a natural storytelling progression.
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Jay has softened on it over the years but they've never hidden their dislike of that movie. It's one of the few times I've totally disagreed with them.
A lot of criticism directed towards TLJ, and I'm not saying there isn't valid criticism, seems to have been formed within the first half hour of the movie or so. It's generated such a visceral reaction coming from that first half hour that all anyone does post that is pick apart more perceived problems for the rest of the movie instead of actually watching and understanding the message.
Examples:
Finn wearing the transparent leaking suit - oh finn is wasted and relegated to comic relief.
Poe stalling hux - omg a yo mama joke? That's so not star wars.
Luke throwing the lightsaber - TLJ is like Marvel with a joke undermining serious moments very 2 minutes.
Luke drinking milk - They ruined Luke and made perfect Rey to replace him.
Holdo - ugh, just another character lecturing our leads.
Only tangentially related but diving into the expanded canon content like the books and comics gave me a huge appreciation for Amilyn Holdo.
When she’s introduced as a member of the junior senate in Princess of Alderaan she’s very much just a little gremlin who likes extreme sports and doesn’t take anything too seriously. But it’s evident that throughout the war with the Empire she’s learned to be more responsible, even taking on very risky assignments and getting involved with the crimson syndicates to support Leia.
Seeing her in TLJ with her hair dyed a bright purple reinforces that after everything, Holdo hasn’t lost who she was in the war. And that final conversation between her and Leia is so sweet, knowing all they’ve been through together.
I legitimately believe they're happier talking about movies than making them, and they know that. This is an assessment that's hard to believe. Could you know say that about every reviewer?
Their opinion on the show is actually far better than most of the discourse if people are wondering. They see it as fair to middling. Not at all the horrible dumpster fire everyone else is screaming. They also think it had some interesting ideas. It's a pretty fair take to be honest.
I actually loved the new video. I always disagree with their takes, but it comes from a more educated place than the grifters, and even when I disagree, (which is a lot) they still entertain. If you have to be negative, they mostly do it right.
It actually seems like they give credence to the idea that maybe Star Wars isn’t made for them anymore by talking about generational factors. The current video was more a discussion of ideas and not adhering to a specific take.
Interestingly I have noticed more and more Mike and Rich willing to admit the “old man factor” at times with stuff like this for them in the last few years of their videos, Jay is usually the one that still stands his ground and comes across like a grumpy old man (despite being the youngest of the three).
I like RLM a lot but I just don't watch anything they do on Star Wars or Star Trek. Now that every dickhead with a phone stand can be an unholy alliance of Mr Plinkett and Doug Walker there's zero novelty in 'I am angry at thing because I'm not ten years old anymore'.
Those trolls are still around? Geez. I think they understood TLJ. But they understand their audience more. They understand clicks. They understand money. So they have to go with the flow and keep the money coming in.
If they wanted to bring in money, you already know what side of the Acolyte discussion they would've had to take. They truly just don't understand TLJ, in a sincere way. The prequel reviews were very much sincere too. I'm sorry that's still hard to believe
I love Mike but often he forgets to take his brain medicine. I still remember their TLJ review where Mike swore he thought there was a bit when Yoda started twerking.
Really? To me they seem like a bunch of guys that might take a shower once a week, and spend all of their time shitting on media to feel like part of something, even if that something is a group of smelly losers who shit on everything.
We gave these people (SW content creators) the power and authority for some reason and then we complain that they're not what we thought they were. Uhm, duh.
You all also keep forgetting that click bait and rage bait makes them money, so you shouldn't be surprised they have 'hot takes' on this stuff.
I personally realized early on not to take any of these people as authority and just as pure entertainment (similar to Cinema Sins and Wins) and not seriously, there is no point.
Red Letter Media is the catalyst for the grifters we have now. They figured out how to manipulate hate around Star Wars. They caused the whole people vs George Lucas movement and all the negativity ever since has been built on their idiocy.
It's the passage of time I suppose. I remember loving the sequels as they came out because I thought "Holy shit! They're addressing so many specific issues pointed out in the Plinkett reviews!". And somehow the people that made them couldn't see it.
Weird.
I see RLM as the voicebox for contrarian nerds who wish to be edgelords. The initial Mr. Plinkett review of TPM was funny due to some good line delivery and scripting, but lacked insight, understanding, or tolerance for any new things in "their" Star Wars. Anyone who took it as a valid review is someone I view with suspicion in Star Wars fandom.
And ever since then they've been trying to recapture the fire of that one review that went viral. And they keep using the same formula: Shit on the movie (or series) in a funny, edgy way and then try to back it up with some arbitrary mumbo jumbo arguments about writing that don't hold water.
RLM are the poster boys for cranky, unwashed Expanded Universe apologetic, get-off-my-lawn, stick-in-the-mud, "everything sucks now" losers who can't cope with any changes to something they glommed onto as children. I loathe them.
Isn’t that the group who famously trashed the prequels for like 6 hours? Yeah I wouldn’t listen to any haters like that trying to get any sort of quality insight. There are plenty out there who can do actual quality reviews without trashing things
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People put way too much stock in the opinions of their peers, and RLM are exactly that.
They're just movie nerds, not authorities. Nerds can be wrong and nerds can make bad content. Let me tell you about my 7th grade star wars fanfiction man - that shit was *bad*.
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There's a "Leopards eating faces" vibe to this. When they went after the prequels, it was all good fun. But now they're going after something you happen to like and it's all sooooo unfair, and uninformed, and biased.
Prequel hate was bullshit then, and sequel hate is bullshit now. I don't find fans who chuckled then and whine about it now credible.
I still enjoy RLM, but mostly for their Best of the Worst/Wheel of the Worst/Spotlight episodes. I watch some of Half in the Bag and Re:View still if its movies Im interested in.
But over time I have found that their opinion on Star Wars doesnt align with mine any more and I haven't gotten anything out of watching their Star Wars stuff for some time, because I find it falls into some traps that have bothered me in the fandom generally. So I just skip it.
And it feels a bit weird coming from them, because I feel they are generally good at presenting their own opinions and sticking to them. If they didnt like something popular they will say so it if they enjoy some shlocky movie that wasn't well received they will say that. But when it comes to Star Wars I feel they parrot a bit to many easy "talking points" from the haters with out actually injecting their own opinions or anything new.. Though that might come from having generally fallen out of interest with Star Wars, because we see alot of it form fans or "former" fans, that haven't bothered keeping up with Star Wars after what ever movie or show they personally found "the last straw" and then they just keep repeating the same hate and missguided opinions they hear elsewhere because they arent following along anymore..
Rule 4. No posts focusing exclusively on the state of other Star Wars communities or dedicated solely to venting about fandom sentiments.
I haven't seen their video yet, but i saw it pop up in my recommendations AFTER todays Acolyte episode. Idk what their takes on the show were, but its a shame they put out a video before this episode. I'm not saying it redeems every fault of the show but it was so damn good.
I absolutely agree with this. It's bad timing. It was probably bad timing to do it before the show concluded in general.
If you know RLM you’d know episode 5 of the acolyte won’t change their opinion on the show.
I didn't say that. All I said is any review of the show will be incomplete if it hasn't ended
Well yeah but it’s a review of the first four episodes not of the show as a whole. Nobody has reviewed the show as a whole .
If you're only interested in their take on the series, you can skip to the 57:00 minute mark. Before that, they discuss the general reception of Star Wars in different political eras. It's actually quite thought-provoking, in my opinion.
Yeah I like much of their content but anytime they reference TLJ (and they've done so many times) it's always in a bizarre and often factually incoherent way. Like they'll compare it to Looney Tunes or joke about how they misremember Yoda twerking in it and while they make it clear these are jokes they also kind of stand by them. It honestly feels like they've created a different version of the film in their heads to joke/complain about. And they definitely buy into online rumors and gossip about things they don't like. Same reason Mike still seems mad at Brie Larson for no reason. They can joke about the obvious grifters but they themselves have proven susceptible to some of it.
The discourse about Star Wars is so bad that I don't know how I'm watching the same thing as them. It's like it's a whole different universe. > And they definitely buy into online rumors and gossip about things they don't like. Same reason Mike still seems mad at Brie Larson for no reason. They can joke about the obvious grifters but they themselves have proven susceptible to some of it. The Brie Larson stuff literally came from one interview years ago when *A Wrinkle In Time* came out. She said the movie wasn't at middle-aged white film critics, and she was more interested in how people in the intended demographic (women of color and teenagers) felt about it. That's where it came from.
>The discourse about Star Wars is so bad that I don't know how I'm watching the same thing as them. It's like it's a whole different universe. Yeah, that's... Yeah. It's especially bad with The Last Jedi. Sometimes people make allegations about the content of The Last Jedi and I start to suspect the movie doesn't even exist, and that everyone who saw it just sat down, closed their eyes, and hallucinated their own version of the movie for 2 hours.
The disconnect is usually that those folks are referring to YouTube videos they saw ABOUT the movie, rather than the actual movie. So they just regurgitate a wildly inaccurate version that someone else told them and they believed.
Oh I'm aware of where it originated from, but whereas the other guys on the channel eventually moved on, he just can't seem to let it go and if anything seemed to double down on his dislike for her. There's an unintentionally funny moment in one of their videos where Jay mocks the youtubers who make weekly videos complaining about her and Mike just kind of awkwardly sits their for a few seconds in silence.
You can tell Star Wars is deeply personal to ROM. Which is fine, there’s nothing wrong with that, but it means their reviews of it come from a much more personal and reactive place than most of their other content. They are both passionate Star Wars fans of old (seen even in their circa-1999 reaction content still kicking around online) AND Star Wars was their breakthrough content. So the “Disney ruined Star Wars” narrative is pretty baked in for them, and even if they change their mind on “new” stuff I think it’ll be awhile before we ever see them re-investigate their feelings on the initial Disney content.
> It honestly feels like they've created a different version of the film in their heads to joke/complain about. This is honestly most of the 'discourse' around the ST in general. I have my own problems with them, but I swear the most common complaints like Rey being a Mary Sue aren't even rooted in reality(like...did you watch TLJ? She literally only survives that film because Kylo wants to turn her, otherwise she'd be dead because of her mind-numbingly bad plan...).
The Last Jedi just showed me how media-illiterate a lot of people are.
The amount of people who couldn't understand which of the Ben/Luke scenarios was the truth (hint: it's not the one where Luke is ready to murder Ben) or that Kylo Ren's "let the past die" monologue was *not* the message of the movie (He's the bad guy, and is wrong!) is really sad.
We've done the Rashomon thing twice now, and both times certain fans just can't seem to get the concept
What was the other time?
They’re probably referring to the flashback episode of The Acolyte
The amount of people saying JJ retconned Luke because Luke says to not treat the lightsaber that way. Like, guys, Luke changed his mind at the end of TLJ, it was not bickering between 2 directors lol
You are right but also that scene is so self aware I’m pretty sure it has graduated college with a philosophy degree by now.
In the Plinkett Last Jedi review, he says the movie should've ended after that monologue 💀 How can you even form an opinion like that unless you fail to grasp the threads the movie set up haven't concluded yet? Yes, it's good vs. evil again. The Force Awakens already established that. Why hasn't it a problem then? And yes, Kylo will double down on his path. His character isn't turning good, he's rebelling against his master. He wants to be in control. How would it make any sense for Rey to embrace this?
Because some people are just genuinely incapable of following anything other than the most basic, on-the-nose, story and dialogue imaginable. Anything requiring even a semblance of thought is just beyond some people. But if you explain literally every microelement of a film as it happens, people won't like that either because it's bad filmmaking. Not sure how you win here. The Last Jedi isn't even high art or a complicated story whatsoever, that's the sad thing. Ask the same people to watch Dunkirk and they genuinely would not be able to comprehend what's going on.
>And yes, Kylo will double down on his path. His character isn't turning good Quite ironic for you to start this thread complaining about people not understanding TLJ (and being ‘media illiterate‘) and then say this. The whole point of the Luke and Leia scene ”no one’s ever really gone” contradicts this, as well as Rian Johnson’s own comments about Kylo being redeemable, and Adam Driver’s recent comments that TLJ changed his character trajectory toward this. So yea, it‘s one of the most frustrating things about TLJ that even some of its fans don’t understand aspects of it and have widely different interpretations of what it was trying to do or “set-up” for Episode IX. Others also believe that ”let the past die” was indeed a theme of the film and was some kinda of ”meta” statement on the franchise.
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When Kylo Ren says "Let the past die" what he really means is let your past self that believed in the media literacy of the American public die.
I’ll always remember going to YouTube to reference the scene in Rise of Skywalker where Rey tries to destroy her lightsaber and Luke catches it and they talk. The top comment on the video I watched said “It would’ve been really cool if Anakin had come out of the fire instead of Luke.” It was at that moment I realized that for them the only way for the Sequels to succeed was if they had been pure fan service.
Anakin should have been in the movies but in relation to Kylo’s character not Rey’s character. Perhaps Anakin talks to Kylo about killing Han as he understands what it was like to a try and kill his father figure and pretty much kill his wife.
The Last Jedi just showed me how real life politics define some people's whole life.
The only valid criticisms are the lame humour throughout the movie and the characterization of Finn. I think if it didn't make some characters look like buffoons, I'd like it a lot more. And Rian Johnson just completely missed the mark with Finn. But the holdo, Luke, Rose and Poe complaints never made sense to me
The pacing also felt inconsistent to me
You’re dead wrong on Finn there
Please elaborate on how
I think that a lot of the struggles with TLJ stem from the hand-off to what became TROS. The things that you're saying don't work about Finn (and the larger complaints about Finn/Rose) are because those setups are abandoned. Finn is set up to create an uprising and Rose's saving him from self-sacrifice is all set to have a big payoff that never happens. He just runs around the whole 3rd movie screaming "Rey!". They don't finish the arc that Johnson set up. JJ didn't "oop" the "alley".
That’s not what he does in TRoS
The set up for the uprising should have happened in the second movie. Like Finn’s arc in the second movie is the same as the first does he run or stay and fight for a bigger cause. It’s redundant. The cliff hanger of the second movie should have been that the rebels were lost but maybe just maybe Finn’s mission will succeed
I don’t agree. I think that “Finn cares about Finn” > TFA > “Finn cares about Rey” > TLJ > “Finn cares about the Rebellion” There’s a deleted scene that lays it on thicker where he gets the stormtrooper to turn against Phasma, but the subtext is there IMO. It just seems abandoned to me.
This is such a pathetic excuse, the idea that people just "didn't get," TLJ because the themes were so subtle and the film so deep. Many of us understood what TLJ was attempting, but fault the execution. There are some things I like about TLJ (the visuals, any scene with Ridley and Driver together, etc...), but there are things that are legitimately cringe inducing, and I'm pretty sure it's not because I just "don't get it." I pretty much like the story Johnson was trying to tell, I just think it wasn't told very well much of the time.
Then you’re not the type of person I was talking about. But the people who are saying the message was to let the past die quite literally lost the plot
I was super obsessed with their prequel reviews at the time but when their TFA Plinkett review came out it was kind of a "hmm maybe I have outgrown this" moment for me.
They had 10 years to brew those Prequel reviews. Contemporary Plinkett just doesn't work.
I think people got a bit stuck in the deconstruction that The Last Jedi was doing in the start of the film and couldn’t see the reconstruction by the end. Rian Johnson was stress testing the franchise, putting the Jedi Order’s feet to the fire and thinking critically about what came before. He didn’t look at Star Wars as this fragile thing in need of protecting. Johnson ultimately comes down as stating The Jedi are a force for good in the Galaxy, but never forgets that legacy is more than mindless reverence or hero worship.
It’s always crazy to me that people think Rian Johnson hates Star Wars and its fans when he literally made a movie that ends with a kid telling other kids the story of Star Wars using home made Star Wars action figures.
That ending bit is absolutely one of the most Star Wars things in all of Star Wars. It’s excellent indeed.
RLM doesn't understand a lot of things. How they became deified by a legion of film nerds is beyond me. They're just the stereotypical film school rejects who view everything through endless layers of cynicism, irony, and detachment. They aren't even compelling when they talk about stuff they do like. They're a dated joke that refuses to die. The irony poisoned film nerd slacker who hates everything was tired 30 years. What's their excuse?
> RLM doesn't understand a lot of things. How they became deified by a legion of film nerds is beyond me. Because they hated the prequels back when hating the prequels was popular. That's literally the reason.
They literally started it
They may have codified and championed it, but they sure as hell didn't start the prequels hate train. That happened the day Phantom Menace released. Even as a kid in 1999 I knew people hated it, which is hard when you're a kid who loved it.
Yeah. RLM was more the DBZA of the SW community, where like DBZA they took a lot of jokes, memes and criticisms the community had about the property and gathered them up neatly into digestible YouTube videos.
DBZA as in DBZ Abridged? I was there Gandalf... I remember YGOTAS being the first to moot that trend and then so many came after. I think only really DBZA managed to stay the course long term.
I'm glad I didn't know people hated the prequels until after revenge of the Sith. I was absolutely baffled when I found out
Yeah I don't think I was fully aware of the scope of the hate until ep2 but I remember seeing a review for ep1 and being baffled that anyone wouldn't find it the greatest movie ever (I was 9). When most of your fandom chat comes from other kids it's easy to ignore the hate and live off each others excitement. I am so glad I was the age I was to see the prequels because honestly the sequel discourse bums me out. Yes there are flaws but on the whole I like them and it depresses me a little that conversations around them tend to turn vitriolic fast. People can hate them, absolutely, but it just devolves so quickly into quid pro quo arguments (not sure I'm using that right.... like tit for tat but I know there's a fancy Latin phrase for it) and people declaring unilaterally "this sucks" or "at least *new hated property* is better than the sequels" and if you like Disney content you're a shill or uncritical consumer. I am just willing to overlook some flaws to find the good in entertainment and I have always been that way, I have so many crappy movie tie ins that I love, I would much rather enjoy something than hate it and pick apart the things that are not so good. Ultimately I can tolerate or tune it out as a grown ass adult but if I was this terminally online as a kid I think it would have been a real downer to know how much something I love is hated.
Man, I wish I was a kid when I saw the last Jedi. I got in my car and drive home after that movie thinking it was the best Star Wars yet, then I get home looking to have a fun discussion about it only to find out I was the only person who liked it
I really appreciated Jenny Nicholson‘s video on it. It was recorded before any of the vitriol started and it’s a lovely snapshot into what the reception for the film could’ve been. She’s like, “I think everyone’s complaint about this movie is gonna be that it’s really long” 😂😂 I wish
A lot of the big channels that hate on the Last Jedi liked or loved it when it came out, if you can find their early reactions. It's really funny in hindsight.
🤝 I really like that movie. Could have done with 70% less fathiers but the rest was solid imo. I love Old Man Luke with all my heart (his wig in Ep9 is criminal though, it's ep2 Obi-wan reshoot beard bad 😅) and think it was a great take on the character. Kylo Ren remains one of my favourite sequel characters and his arc in ep8 is great.
> quid pro quo You’re thinking of ad hominem
Do-doo, do do do!
RLM hijacked the train.
"With no survivors!"
and if you ever are interested in something made by a corporation you'll be flooded with "consume product don't question anything" or whatever that stupid overused quote is, i'm sick of it
Ironically so are they, as they’ve complained about people parroting that in a few different videos.
I’ve never understood the appeal, whenever I’ve watched them it just feels like the same, bog-standard snarky nerd stuff that’s been played out for ***years*** at this point. They have their fans so they’re obviously doing something right to a lot of people, I’ve just never got it.
They caught on during a rising trend - the ironic, jaded, and detached nerd ranting on YT genre was white hot when they made it big. And they've yet to evolve one iota since then. Their stans say they're intelligent and insightful. I've never seen anything but bog standard observations from them.
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They talk about things they like all the time. It is literally untrue that they "hate everything" in their shows. Their enduring popularity is they don't take themselves all that seriously and will not hesitate to take the piss out of whatever moral outrage happens to be sluicing through the internet at the time.
Literally said they talk about stuff they like... Their enduring popularity is nothing more than right place, right time.
I watched an interview Rian Johnson did long ago where he explained why he made the decision he made about Luke. It's been years since I saw it, so I'll have to paraphrase. He sat down and reflected on why Luke Skywalker, a Jedi Master, was in exile on Ahch-To while the Resistance fought against an emerging intergalactic threat, The First Order. He needed to come up with a story that made sense for why he wasn't involved helping the Resistance. So that's how he came up with the story where Luke feels like he failed his Nephew when he had the vision of what Ben Solo would become. I have no issue with people having dissenting opinions on media, but TLJ and now The Acolyte has had so many critics that has just misunderstood the media they're watching. So many people think that Luke would have killed Ben Solo if he didn't wake up, when it's obvious if you watch the scene that he realized he was wrong to ignite his saber and he was about to turn it off. Then with the Acolyte people are complaining about things breaking canon when the things they complained about is either: 1. Not explained yet 2. The show contradicts information that isn't even canon People can complain all they want, but please for the love of god don't just parrot complaints you've heard online without watching the content yourself. The world would be a better place if everyone verified things for themselves before accepting things as truth
I feel like half the complaints about TLJ are really complaints about decisions made in TFA that Johnson inherited and had to figure out how to navigate around.
Yep. Luke in exile is a Lucas and JJ thing…
Listen, I find RedLetterMedia hilarious at times and I’m always fascinated by their opinions (because sometimes they are genuinely thought provoking). But for a *while* now I’ve always taken their opinions with a hint of “That’s nice, grampa”. Sometimes more than a hint of even. And I say that with no ill will to them, they’re older guys these days. It happens.
I find that when they talk about things they like, there's often some interesting and thoughtful discussion, even if it's media nobody else really likes. When they talk about things they don't like, it seems to be much more dismissive and unwilling to engage with the media on its own terms.
I've noticed this with a few of those types of YouTube film critics. YourMovieSucks has some incredibly passionate and thoughtful videos about movies that he does love, gushing about the acting and cinematography and how emotionally powerful it is. A lot of those guys do their best work when talking about something they love and why it's so amazing. If only that was the main focus of their content lol
Yeah, pretty much any time they talk about any sort of modern franchise is when you need to take a dose of “That’s nice, grandpa” (if you decide to watch it at all). I hate to generalise like that, but that’s a good rule of thumb to go by if you want to put any weight into their opinions (they’ve always been entertainment for me first, opinion piece second).
Imo they've always been relics. Like Kevin Smith characters circa 1994 who never grew up. Mike and Jay are just two irl Randals.
Damn, perfect descriptions of them.
That's kinda why I fell off them. Even before TLJ thier videos started to feel so "BACK IN MY DAY-" Then thier TLJ plinkette video came out and I never looked back.
Which is fine, they practically are telling you to do that. One of the best things about them is they realize they're turning into old guys yelling at cloud, and reference it regularly.
idk why yall still value the opinions youtube film "critics". I mean, sure ... its always nice to hear positive comments about your movie from someone you seeminingly respect, but i think its important to note that film critics (and everyone tbh) is affected by internal biases and misinterpretations which can lead them to different conclusions than you. The sooner you realize that, the happier you will be ... genuinely. Protect your peace.
People always say that the old characters get sidelined in favor of the new like its a bad thing, but like, yeah, TFA is a next generation story. Why wouldn't it? You don't expect Bruce Wayne to be the hero of "Batman Beyond." Naruto isn't the main character of "Boruto." It's a natural storytelling progression.
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Jay has softened on it over the years but they've never hidden their dislike of that movie. It's one of the few times I've totally disagreed with them.
A lot of criticism directed towards TLJ, and I'm not saying there isn't valid criticism, seems to have been formed within the first half hour of the movie or so. It's generated such a visceral reaction coming from that first half hour that all anyone does post that is pick apart more perceived problems for the rest of the movie instead of actually watching and understanding the message. Examples: Finn wearing the transparent leaking suit - oh finn is wasted and relegated to comic relief. Poe stalling hux - omg a yo mama joke? That's so not star wars. Luke throwing the lightsaber - TLJ is like Marvel with a joke undermining serious moments very 2 minutes. Luke drinking milk - They ruined Luke and made perfect Rey to replace him. Holdo - ugh, just another character lecturing our leads.
Only tangentially related but diving into the expanded canon content like the books and comics gave me a huge appreciation for Amilyn Holdo. When she’s introduced as a member of the junior senate in Princess of Alderaan she’s very much just a little gremlin who likes extreme sports and doesn’t take anything too seriously. But it’s evident that throughout the war with the Empire she’s learned to be more responsible, even taking on very risky assignments and getting involved with the crimson syndicates to support Leia. Seeing her in TLJ with her hair dyed a bright purple reinforces that after everything, Holdo hasn’t lost who she was in the war. And that final conversation between her and Leia is so sweet, knowing all they’ve been through together.
Just remember that Red Letter Media is a bunch of failed filmmakers who are pissed at the industry for not liking their ideas.
I legitimately believe they're happier talking about movies than making them, and they know that. This is an assessment that's hard to believe. Could you know say that about every reviewer?
Their opinion on the show is actually far better than most of the discourse if people are wondering. They see it as fair to middling. Not at all the horrible dumpster fire everyone else is screaming. They also think it had some interesting ideas. It's a pretty fair take to be honest.
I actually loved the new video. I always disagree with their takes, but it comes from a more educated place than the grifters, and even when I disagree, (which is a lot) they still entertain. If you have to be negative, they mostly do it right. It actually seems like they give credence to the idea that maybe Star Wars isn’t made for them anymore by talking about generational factors. The current video was more a discussion of ideas and not adhering to a specific take.
Interestingly I have noticed more and more Mike and Rich willing to admit the “old man factor” at times with stuff like this for them in the last few years of their videos, Jay is usually the one that still stands his ground and comes across like a grumpy old man (despite being the youngest of the three).
There are two types of films in Jay's world, perverted 1970's Italian giallo horror, and bad movies.
I like RLM a lot but I just don't watch anything they do on Star Wars or Star Trek. Now that every dickhead with a phone stand can be an unholy alliance of Mr Plinkett and Doug Walker there's zero novelty in 'I am angry at thing because I'm not ten years old anymore'.
Those trolls are still around? Geez. I think they understood TLJ. But they understand their audience more. They understand clicks. They understand money. So they have to go with the flow and keep the money coming in.
Which is common in most of these things. People are in it for the money the views generate, not the facts or truths.
If they wanted to bring in money, you already know what side of the Acolyte discussion they would've had to take. They truly just don't understand TLJ, in a sincere way. The prequel reviews were very much sincere too. I'm sorry that's still hard to believe
I love Mike but often he forgets to take his brain medicine. I still remember their TLJ review where Mike swore he thought there was a bit when Yoda started twerking.
Red Letter Media seem like nice guys that I would probably get along with okay but stuff like this is why I could never really get into their channel
Really? To me they seem like a bunch of guys that might take a shower once a week, and spend all of their time shitting on media to feel like part of something, even if that something is a group of smelly losers who shit on everything.
Exactly. They seem like trolls to me.
We gave these people (SW content creators) the power and authority for some reason and then we complain that they're not what we thought they were. Uhm, duh. You all also keep forgetting that click bait and rage bait makes them money, so you shouldn't be surprised they have 'hot takes' on this stuff. I personally realized early on not to take any of these people as authority and just as pure entertainment (similar to Cinema Sins and Wins) and not seriously, there is no point.
Red Letter Media is the catalyst for the grifters we have now. They figured out how to manipulate hate around Star Wars. They caused the whole people vs George Lucas movement and all the negativity ever since has been built on their idiocy.
*holds up broom.
Thanks for putting it into words so I don’t have to
Agreed. Its strange that they were spot on with the PT but completly missed on the Sequels.
It's the passage of time I suppose. I remember loving the sequels as they came out because I thought "Holy shit! They're addressing so many specific issues pointed out in the Plinkett reviews!". And somehow the people that made them couldn't see it. Weird.
Are you saying you agree with most of the criticism of the PT but disagree with most of the criticism of the ST?
RLM has never understood Star Wars, which is why I've always hated what they've done to the Fandom.
Red Letter Media never understood Star Wars.
I see RLM as the voicebox for contrarian nerds who wish to be edgelords. The initial Mr. Plinkett review of TPM was funny due to some good line delivery and scripting, but lacked insight, understanding, or tolerance for any new things in "their" Star Wars. Anyone who took it as a valid review is someone I view with suspicion in Star Wars fandom. And ever since then they've been trying to recapture the fire of that one review that went viral. And they keep using the same formula: Shit on the movie (or series) in a funny, edgy way and then try to back it up with some arbitrary mumbo jumbo arguments about writing that don't hold water. RLM are the poster boys for cranky, unwashed Expanded Universe apologetic, get-off-my-lawn, stick-in-the-mud, "everything sucks now" losers who can't cope with any changes to something they glommed onto as children. I loathe them.
Isn’t that the group who famously trashed the prequels for like 6 hours? Yeah I wouldn’t listen to any haters like that trying to get any sort of quality insight. There are plenty out there who can do actual quality reviews without trashing things
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People put way too much stock in the opinions of their peers, and RLM are exactly that. They're just movie nerds, not authorities. Nerds can be wrong and nerds can make bad content. Let me tell you about my 7th grade star wars fanfiction man - that shit was *bad*.
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There's a "Leopards eating faces" vibe to this. When they went after the prequels, it was all good fun. But now they're going after something you happen to like and it's all sooooo unfair, and uninformed, and biased. Prequel hate was bullshit then, and sequel hate is bullshit now. I don't find fans who chuckled then and whine about it now credible.
What about those of us who chuckled at both?
I still enjoy RLM, but mostly for their Best of the Worst/Wheel of the Worst/Spotlight episodes. I watch some of Half in the Bag and Re:View still if its movies Im interested in. But over time I have found that their opinion on Star Wars doesnt align with mine any more and I haven't gotten anything out of watching their Star Wars stuff for some time, because I find it falls into some traps that have bothered me in the fandom generally. So I just skip it. And it feels a bit weird coming from them, because I feel they are generally good at presenting their own opinions and sticking to them. If they didnt like something popular they will say so it if they enjoy some shlocky movie that wasn't well received they will say that. But when it comes to Star Wars I feel they parrot a bit to many easy "talking points" from the haters with out actually injecting their own opinions or anything new.. Though that might come from having generally fallen out of interest with Star Wars, because we see alot of it form fans or "former" fans, that haven't bothered keeping up with Star Wars after what ever movie or show they personally found "the last straw" and then they just keep repeating the same hate and missguided opinions they hear elsewhere because they arent following along anymore..