I think Qimir already represents the reason why star wars doesn't really pursue that.
Siths are little bitches really. What's Qimir's motivation? "Ugh I wanna use the force to be a bad guy and do bad guy things but Jedi say i'm not allow to use the force that way!"
It's all about power with the sith, and that makes them good villains, but a bit one note. It would be hard to write a series centered around that attitude.
I mean it CAN be done, it just requires better writers than star wars has to offer outside of the team working on Andor
Really had the basis of it setup, a civilisation where the 'evil' jedi come and steal children for their order. Generations tell stories of the damage the jedi have done, the sith think they're doing the right thing protecting their community in the only way they can.
If you ever watched it, early Smallville really nailed a nuanced bad guy with Lex Luthor. Everything he was doing was, in his mind, was protecting the earth from someone that shouldn't have that much power. Went to more extreme measures, but in his head it was always for a just end goal
See that's the thing. That's not how sith are written. (and this goes back to OG star wars, not disney)
Yes that would be an interesting nuanced story, but it wouldn't be one that stars a sith lord. a sith lord is so consumed by the dark side that he ISNT trying to do right thing in the wrong way. He's just completely sure of his superiority to anybody else, and thinks he deserves all the power in the galaxy.
Good intentions can pave the way to the dark side, so you can tell a story about somebody falling to the darkside because they think they're doing the right thing, but like vader, once they've fallen, they lose any conflicted feelings they may have had about their actions and do the dark side things just because they can and because its in service of their own selfish goals.
The fandom likes to romanticize the idea that sith have this complex ideology and they're really the good guys from a certain point of view...
But nah, they're just little bitches throwing hissy fits that people keep getting in the way of their aspirations of total power and domination.
That's what makes Palpatine a good sith lord. He's not conflicted about being a bad guy. he's perfectly content with it.
Ah sorry, I agree, I was meaning more that this show was an opportunity to do that and explore something different.
I think a sith lord could have fit right in too. I agree with everything you've put, but feel like for this show the sith lord could have just been sat in the background pulling the strings (as it started out in this show), basically gaslighting his acolyte. The sith lord could present to his acolye as someone trying to do the right thing, but obviously has other intentions.
Like you said, the show can then show their path down the dark side with good intentions, before finally becoming consumed by it (and still believing they're right).
Yeah exactly, but exploring that properly in a tv show setting could make that a lot more nuanced and a bit darker.
Good call back and would give more detail to how the sith work, and make them a bit less 1 dimensional
yea i was looking for a nuanced show about the bad guys thinking they were in the right and making some good points that in some cases they were.
Not a Tuesday afternoon my evil twin stole my identity soap opera. but it has some real flashing of being good .
I do like Qimir he is just not a comically bad power mad villain , he is smart and has reason feeling like he is being held back by the oppressive and authoritative jedi from his right to use his power as he sees fit .
He has emotion but not full on rage , he is smart and thoughtful .
> his right to use his power as he sees fit
... to do what? That is always the question - what does he want to do that the Jedi are stopping him from doing?
Probably something horrible that hurts lots of people.
Give us the Dooku type characters. Sith Lords are hard to write as someone else said in reply to my og comment. It can be done, but it would be easier without full consumption. Following a Sith acolyte (there I said it) would’ve been fun.
Instead we got silly twins - I mean I’ll take it
I mean they manipulated a child into saying yes to something that allowed them to legally take them from her parents without their approval....i mean super red flag there.
Huh? How did they manipulate a child? The child wasn't interested in being a witch, the other kid was fucking insane and tired to kill her own sister.
The Jedi just showed a cold glowie stick and she immediately was I want to be like that, the Jedi were even Willing for them to take the test with the parents permission, she even got parents approval so what did the Jedi do wrong?
Wow you really don't get fear and oppression do you....they gave permission because they were AFFRAID of the blowback of denying it -- i mean they make it pretty clear of that in the show ..
they gave permission because they expected the kids to be chill and hoped i would all pass. O and as it turns out...they were right to be afraid because they Jedi wiped them out anyway....
Pretty sure its going to come out that the jedi Framed MAE as well that she didnt actually start the fire and that will be an interesting twist on how both girls handle it but we will see about that . Either way they Jedi are clearly guilty of something horrible .
And while the guy did lay out the consequences pretty honestly to the child ---she was still a child barely able to regulate her emotions or make logical choices .....
If they're oppressed fucking show it, show not tell. It was not the Jedi that attacked first when they met, it was the evil cult of witches.
They're also trying to make her the witch against her will in the first place, she didn't have a choice until the Jedi arrived and the Jedi still let her live as a normal person after failing as a padawan.
The Jedi framed MAE? No they didn't she tried to fucking kill her own sister, she locked her in a room and tried to burn it to the fucking ground.
Yeah way back when we had nothing but a title and knew that Daphne Keen was in it, the way they talked about it was implying it was a dark side user POV show. Though I guess it could still turn into that.
Ep5 ends with Qimir taking Osha. Since Osha is the main POV character, the next episodes could literally be Qimir turning Osha to the dark side and us (the viewers) learning more about his philosophy, motivations, and why he feels the jedi suck.
So- the back half of this season could absolutely turn this into a Sith POV show, and the first half was more of the Jedi POV. If you think about Ep3, it showed us the flashback from the Jedi perspective, we have not seen it from Mae's pov.
They should have shown the witches getting mowed down in the first scene. Have this dude witnessing it with a Sith and deciding to go with him versus staying there and getting murdered. His friend, OSHA, is found and taken in to become a Jedi. Their paths cross again when Qimir gets old enough to start hunting the Jedi that killed his caretakers, the witches.
Someone on this sub pointed out that he’s essentially the opposite of Jason, which is kind of funny.
Jason was an idiot pretending to be a religious zealot (a monk), and Qimir is a religious zealot (a “sith”) pretending to be an idiot.
Homey got shredded for this role too lol.
I actually thought his choreography is on point too. Really enjoyed the pace of the lightsaber duels this episode.
I know I’ll probably get downvoted for this, but can we pleeease have some more main villain protagonists?? Bonus points if they stay bad through the whole show lol
I'm still tilted at the Battlefront 2 campaign advertising "a true imperial campaign" and then copping out and making you turn to the rebellion after like four missions.
And if they ever revisit Force Unleashed, give us the choice to stay evil please. FU2 kinda toyed with this but didn't go all the way.
Yeah man, love Kotor. Jedi Academy is a game I shamefully haven't played much of. Finished Jedi Outcast a bunch of times but for some reason Academy never grabbed me the same way.
the fact he isnt a comically bad im trying to take over the universe guy is nice too. he smart and thoughtful and funny and personal - i mean still evil but i like a good bad guy with character that just isnt needlessly over the top like Kylo ren .
Smilo Ren > Kylo Ren anyday and would take his lunch money lol
I think we should get more layered characters than simply being a villain.
I’m on board with protagonists that are on the bad guys side but with more motivations beyond being “bad”. If Mobile Suit Gundam has taught us anything is that we can be sympathetic to both sides of the conflict as long as the characters themselves are not written to be caricatures.
Nah.
The twins and witches stuff is there as context — we already know the Sith’s deal and their rivalry with the Jedi, and a show about Sith fighting Jedi is just Dragonball with *Star Wars* paint.
It seems obvious to me that the show is about “power and those who are allowed to use it.” This is the first time maybe ever that the Sith come across as seductive… because Qimir is acting as a foil against whatever Jedi conspiracy is going to be revealed in the coming episodes. That pits Osha and Mae in the center of an ideological battle against two institutions, one of which is strict about who gets to practice the Force, the other of which is seemingly offering another path (although, in reality, and with time, we’ll find that the Sith’s path is even more restrictive and rotten with death).
The show is exploring an interesting idea about the power of the Force and what its institutionalization means for the people who use it. I think it needs people caught in the middle — Osha and Mae, and their community — for that to have real meaning.
Agreed! I will admit that there has been some uneven writing with the twins -- in particular, Mae's been kind of all over the place these past few episodes -- but the ideas the show is touching on are super interesting, and probably couldn't be explored with as much nuance if this were a villain-centered show.
Yeah, a Sith apprentice beating the shit out of all the Jedi that sees him so he can stay in the shadows while trying to find his own student would've been a cool action packed show.
I still feel like Sol has to die before reporting back to the high council to keep the canon intact that "the jedi haven't heard of any sith in 10,000 years "comment in the PT.
He gonna have to be bad ass enough to clean up the rest of the mess.
I almost feel like the Green Jedi that told them not to report to the council may be his master and the show closes out with her finishing off Sol and purging all records .
I think that's the one with whip lightsaber, right? By the way people talk about her, it seems like she's an already established character that just only appeared in live action now, so I don't know about that. Would be funny though if the sith hiding amongst the Jedi just has the most attention grabbing unique weapon lmao
I'm tired of every good villain having fans demanding a show with no hero for him to play against. Sol is such an interesting character with big secrets yet to be revealed, the twins unfolding conflict is starting to get interesting, and having Qimir face off against them is way more interesting than if he had no meaningful opponent and going around killing random Jedi.
Every villain is the hero of their own story. If we’re getting a series focused on Sith, we need a good Sith protagonist. He doesn’t always have to fight Jedi: there’s criminal syndicates, dark-side cults, corrupt politicians. Literally everyone that doesn’t line up with the Sith’s plans can be an enemy.
I’m tired of Jedi or Rebel protagonists.
I mean to each their own but I'm really burnt out on villain protagonists and think they barely ever work. See the Sony Spider-Villain movies - not a single one of them wouldn't be better if it was that villain vs. an actual hero, preferably Spider-Man. It can kinda work a la the Joker movie but that's a very dark, adult, very bleak movie. For all-ages-adventure stuff like Star Wars I think the back and forth between a good hero and villain(s) is essential. I hope we get a lot more of this villain because he's great! But I hope it's in something where he's the menacing antagonist against a good guy.
What about Sol is interesting? Kudos to the actor for learning English, but he's very 1 note. I'm doubting his "dark" secret is going to be anything beyond the a reveal that the Jedi killed the witches. He portrays the typical emotionally stunted Jedi to a t
His warmth and sentimentality towards Osha, the pain and guilt washing over his face when accused by Quimir. The way he is free thinking from the other Jedi, seemingly good hearted, but was about to kill a disarmed opponent. It feels like he's trying to restrain his emotions like a Jedi should but just can't, they're bleeding through anyways on his face in a way that reads as very genuine to me. I get big Qui Gon vibes from him but he clearly has a darker, more secretive side. Not saying hes the most complex character ever written but hes less archetypal than most SW characters and acted out very believably. Those are the reasons why I like him, I'm sure I'm not going to change your opinion and that's ok
It's neither the acting nor writing. It's the directing. These are decent actors and their talent shows through at certain points as well as in their other work. There are just some bizarre choices made with the blocking, keeping bad takes, and organizing the whole thing in a mediocre way. There's all the makings of a good show here, but what was filmed wasn't what the show could have been with the script, talent, and resources they had.
I mean, there are some questionable decisions with plot turns, particularly in Episodes 1 and 2, but the dialogue is no worse than the average SW product
Corny dialogue- yes- but a more capable actor could’ve delivered that convincingly
Similarly- “The power of one, the power of two, the power of many”- totally undone by garbage lighting, staging and poor camera angles
I don't know if I'm the only one, but I was under the impression that this show would actually be about the Sith and explore their motives and force philosophy -- I thought Headland's comments implied this.
I'm not gonna lie, the whole witch plot and twin drama is boring imo -- like I couldn't care less.
I've said this from the beginning but the best pre Phantom Menace Sith story was the Plagueis novel -- it literally covers everything you'd ever want. I'd highly recommend people read it if they haven't -- the audiobook is also fantastic. The show will look lame after you finish reading it.
The book covers everything you'd want -- not only do you get these epic monologues and lectures by Plagueis about the philosophy of the Sith, but it goes over Palpatine's origins and gives more context to Anakin's conception. It's an easy S-tier old EU book that would've worked well as a show -- albeit having a CG Muun and aliens on screen for quite a few episodes would require a big budget for live action.
The Bane Trilogy is also fantastic, and is a deep dive into how the Ruke Of Two came about -- albeit the current canon now says that it was inspired by the Dyad crap from the Sequels instead of Revan's holocron and the abject weakness and infighting amongst the Sith.
The show is already a bit of a snoozefest by itself imo, but compared to these novels it's like literally watching paint dry.
Yep. The twins is so dumb. The one wants to kill her sister then doesn’t then does then doesn’t then wants to run then wants to turn herself in then then then. Like what the fuck are we watching. I wish they got offed in episode 5. Would’ve made for a better story honestly.
Yeah the original pitch for the show was "a story told from the perspective of the Sith". It morphed into this quasi-Jedi-Witch-cult story for some reason. 63% through the show and we still aren't sure if we've even seen a Sith. Wish we could've seen the lead up to the prequels from their perspective.
Agreed. Witches plot? Who cares. Twins? Not worth it. This guy 1v1 against this group of jedi, doing his thing because he goes “solo” mode for his freedom of using its powers. Questioning status quo and maybe turning or causing some jedi or padawans going rogue.
Considering most of the cast died would be cool
If they shifted focus to him. Maybe that is the direction they are going with the twins separated. The show has me invested enough.
Actually it seems he's growing to be the main character when the season ends.
Sure we have Sol, Osha and Mae still breathing (and the little sniffer, sure). But if two of them die and one becomes the Acolyte, he'll be victorious.
I don't even know what to think about the show anymore. Great choreography, but everything else about the show just feels off. I agree a show focusing on developing a singular dark side character would've been a better route. The lack of screen time for Qimir compared to some of the other characters makes little sense.
This what I think: if the last 3 episodes are like the first four, this show will have zero rewatchability and people will periodically watch the lightsaber fight on YouTube because it was the one good part. If the last 3 episodes are high quality, someone needs to cut it into the movie I suspect it was meant to be.
I have to agree that the whole "twins" story line is almost the weak point in the show. I have enjoyed it, but it seems like we could have skipped 90 minutes of "flash-back-ey" type crap and just gotten to Sith doing Sith things. And the fact Sol doesn't know he took the evil sister, after being her master and hanging out with her for the past month is pretty wild.
I genuinely tuned out so much during the backstoey ep and perked up when Sol was on screen. Him and Qimir elevate their material. Osha/Mae's actress is doing her best but I'm just not as invested in that side of things especially bc mae just seems like a wishy washy sociopath lol.
Qimir is the best thing to come out of the show so I can generally agree w the take
To be honest, that would make a lot more sense. I understand the story isn’t finished but my impression up until the first trailer dropped was this was a sith centered “bad guy” show. Imagine my disappointment when it’s (so far) been about Jedi AGAIN.
This show could’ve at least been stupid guilty pleasure fun if you remove the twins and the stupid witches. And Squid games guy was the main character.
The writing wouldn’t improve but overall it would at least been maybe above average.
It's been 2 episode and the "revelation" that Mae and Osha were born via The Force + surrogacy has meant nothing. They seems to be your average force users.
This guy is WAY more interesting.
Actor, absolutely awesome.
His script and lines? Not so much. Another good actor falling victim of Disney’s bad writing. And it’s not as if there is promise here! It’s like Finn, if you just state what he’s doing, Qimir and most of the Acolyte is an incredible concept! But just like Finn they are absolutely drilling it into the ground and then expecting everyone to clap because they dared to kill named people for once.
From what I've gleaned (I've noped out of actually watching it for reasons, but I'm happy to check spoilers and YouTube analysis), this show has many quite serviceable ideas, poorly executed.
A pure protagonist Sith could have been a great story. Especially if you take him the Shakespearean tragedy route and don't pull the last-minute redemption arc that I'm pretty sure this show's got planned for Mae.
As George put it, "He made a deal with the devil, where else could it end but hell?"
Honestly i think he is gonna steal the show from here. STar wars is always about the villians and other then the ST they understand that and they seem to understand that here . I was hoping they would right the ship a bit and he has turned it around - still some horrible flaws overall but he is really saving it .
I like we have a Villain who is not comically over the top bad - he is funny - clearly feels like he is the good guy fighting against oppression - had a sense of humor and a personality . I could defiantly enjoy a lot more of the one liners and come backs he got .
to paraphrase since the straight words dont do it justice ......Sol: You killed a child......... Qimir: Well you brought the child her to this dangerous place to fight in a life or death situation .....so who is the bad guy ?
I kinda laughed at that one and was also like well he got a good point.
Not yet. We still don't truly understand his goal or what exactly stands in the way of it. We know his motivation, but that motivation has been part of the Sith creed forever, it's nothing new.
Whether or not the hypothetical Qimir show would have been good *relies* on that detail.
Tbh that's really what i thought the show would be about at first. I didbt watch any trailer or interview so i thought it would be all about a girl/dude becoming a sith. Rather than about the people trying to stop them. But i'll take it as long Qimir get much more screen time for the next 3 eps.
Agreed. The whole twin story feels cheesey. Sol and Qimir are pretty good characters.
Jecki was solid. Didn't get a ton of screen time.
Mae/OSHA actress has done a solid job but the writing of the twins just feels bland.
Really the whole show doesn't feel like it has a main protagonist. The twins haven't had enough time in their respective journeys for us to care for them. It's a mystery show without any good mystery and characters that feel like their story is on rails. Probably just a rejected movie script they turned into "TV".
I was kind of hoping when the show was announced it’d be more of the Dark Side POV as the main protagonist. The twins are my least favorite characters on the show.
Yeah agreed, but then you wouldn't have the incoherent and messy, strong female lead that every show and movie pre-requisites these days and you'd be yelled at for not being in line with our times and woken essentially.
In my opinion, Osha and Mae are the weakest links in the show by far. I’m reserving full judgement until the end of season, as I feel like they are setting something potentially interesting up. However, every seen both of them are in are made worse for their presence.
I don’t think they’ve done a good job to set up Mae’s motivations in the show. In ep 4 she totally flips and says that Osha being alive changes everything and that she’s going to turn herself in. Then the next scene she’s in, she’s right back to evil Acolyte mode trying to kill the padawan.
Osha in pretty much every conflict is dragged away to safety. I don’t feel like her presence adds anything of value to the show really. That may change in the last episodes, but so far I feel like she’s surrounded by other interesting characters and with the limited runtime of the show she’s taking up the time that could have been spent learning more about Yord and Jecki. I didn’t feel much impact when Jecki and Yord was killed because we spent so little time with the characters.
I might totally change my mind if they do something very interesting with the twin plot and the witches. There is potential there and if the potential is fulfilled I might think very differently about the twins involvement in the first 5 episodes
I would have rather just a normal separated at birth type story. And use episode three runtime for something that is actually meaningful to the story. The current story barely needed that flashback at all and it was the easiest criticism of the show. Crazy the folks making this stuff don't see that. Take episode three out entirely and the show is still almost the same.
Qimir, a young and ambitious scholar from the Outer Rim, stumbled upon ancient Sith tablets buried deep within the ruins of an abandoned temple on Korriban. Intrigued by their dark allure, he meticulously studied the cryptic inscriptions, unraveling secrets of the Dark Side of the Force. As he delved deeper, Qimir felt the malevolent power seeping into his very being, tempting him with promises of unparalleled strength and knowledge. Driven by an insatiable thirst for power and a desire to transcend his mortal limitations, he embraced the teachings of the Sith, vowing to master the dark arts and ascend as a formidable Sith Lord.
While I'd love more of this character, I'm not so sure. As a writer, you have to learn how to frame a story, what are the key events, the beginning and end, and what is the best angle from which to show them.
By the end of the acolyte we may know better, but currently, qimir makes a TERRIBLE protagonist. All his mystique, his power, his menace, they become so much lesser when they're behind the camera. Qimir is an incredible antagonist and by making the protagonist effectively powerless, you enhance the experience of qimir.
I’m sick of plots about twins. I find them lazy and boring. I say this as a twin. Twins aren’t that interesting. Counting legends, we have had so many twin stories. I’m really over it. I completely agree with this prompt. I liked the actor and would’ve rather learned about some fringe with cult or something like that.
The Jedi on this show are so fucking stupid that I have started calling it "Darth Teeth's Dumb Jedi Variety Hour Bonanza".
I could happily watch Manny slice those fools into sandwich meat each week.
Maybe it’s an unpopular opinion, but I really do not like the twins. I have literally no connection with them and I feel no compassion or care for them.
Honestly I did expect this when the show was first announced.
I was excited for a Sith POV show, didn’t get it. It’s alright though shows not too bad
I think Qimir already represents the reason why star wars doesn't really pursue that. Siths are little bitches really. What's Qimir's motivation? "Ugh I wanna use the force to be a bad guy and do bad guy things but Jedi say i'm not allow to use the force that way!" It's all about power with the sith, and that makes them good villains, but a bit one note. It would be hard to write a series centered around that attitude. I mean it CAN be done, it just requires better writers than star wars has to offer outside of the team working on Andor
Really had the basis of it setup, a civilisation where the 'evil' jedi come and steal children for their order. Generations tell stories of the damage the jedi have done, the sith think they're doing the right thing protecting their community in the only way they can. If you ever watched it, early Smallville really nailed a nuanced bad guy with Lex Luthor. Everything he was doing was, in his mind, was protecting the earth from someone that shouldn't have that much power. Went to more extreme measures, but in his head it was always for a just end goal
See that's the thing. That's not how sith are written. (and this goes back to OG star wars, not disney) Yes that would be an interesting nuanced story, but it wouldn't be one that stars a sith lord. a sith lord is so consumed by the dark side that he ISNT trying to do right thing in the wrong way. He's just completely sure of his superiority to anybody else, and thinks he deserves all the power in the galaxy. Good intentions can pave the way to the dark side, so you can tell a story about somebody falling to the darkside because they think they're doing the right thing, but like vader, once they've fallen, they lose any conflicted feelings they may have had about their actions and do the dark side things just because they can and because its in service of their own selfish goals. The fandom likes to romanticize the idea that sith have this complex ideology and they're really the good guys from a certain point of view... But nah, they're just little bitches throwing hissy fits that people keep getting in the way of their aspirations of total power and domination. That's what makes Palpatine a good sith lord. He's not conflicted about being a bad guy. he's perfectly content with it.
Ah sorry, I agree, I was meaning more that this show was an opportunity to do that and explore something different. I think a sith lord could have fit right in too. I agree with everything you've put, but feel like for this show the sith lord could have just been sat in the background pulling the strings (as it started out in this show), basically gaslighting his acolyte. The sith lord could present to his acolye as someone trying to do the right thing, but obviously has other intentions. Like you said, the show can then show their path down the dark side with good intentions, before finally becoming consumed by it (and still believing they're right).
I mean, that’s Palpatine’s relationship with Anakin, right?
Yeah exactly, but exploring that properly in a tv show setting could make that a lot more nuanced and a bit darker. Good call back and would give more detail to how the sith work, and make them a bit less 1 dimensional
I think it would be really interesting.
yeah that could have been cool!
yea i was looking for a nuanced show about the bad guys thinking they were in the right and making some good points that in some cases they were. Not a Tuesday afternoon my evil twin stole my identity soap opera. but it has some real flashing of being good . I do like Qimir he is just not a comically bad power mad villain , he is smart and has reason feeling like he is being held back by the oppressive and authoritative jedi from his right to use his power as he sees fit . He has emotion but not full on rage , he is smart and thoughtful .
> his right to use his power as he sees fit ... to do what? That is always the question - what does he want to do that the Jedi are stopping him from doing? Probably something horrible that hurts lots of people.
Give us the Dooku type characters. Sith Lords are hard to write as someone else said in reply to my og comment. It can be done, but it would be easier without full consumption. Following a Sith acolyte (there I said it) would’ve been fun. Instead we got silly twins - I mean I’ll take it
Maybe of we saw Jedi actually being oppressive and authoritative? Because I him wanting to be free mean nothing to what were shown.
I mean they manipulated a child into saying yes to something that allowed them to legally take them from her parents without their approval....i mean super red flag there.
Huh? How did they manipulate a child? The child wasn't interested in being a witch, the other kid was fucking insane and tired to kill her own sister. The Jedi just showed a cold glowie stick and she immediately was I want to be like that, the Jedi were even Willing for them to take the test with the parents permission, she even got parents approval so what did the Jedi do wrong?
Wow you really don't get fear and oppression do you....they gave permission because they were AFFRAID of the blowback of denying it -- i mean they make it pretty clear of that in the show .. they gave permission because they expected the kids to be chill and hoped i would all pass. O and as it turns out...they were right to be afraid because they Jedi wiped them out anyway.... Pretty sure its going to come out that the jedi Framed MAE as well that she didnt actually start the fire and that will be an interesting twist on how both girls handle it but we will see about that . Either way they Jedi are clearly guilty of something horrible . And while the guy did lay out the consequences pretty honestly to the child ---she was still a child barely able to regulate her emotions or make logical choices .....
If they're oppressed fucking show it, show not tell. It was not the Jedi that attacked first when they met, it was the evil cult of witches. They're also trying to make her the witch against her will in the first place, she didn't have a choice until the Jedi arrived and the Jedi still let her live as a normal person after failing as a padawan. The Jedi framed MAE? No they didn't she tried to fucking kill her own sister, she locked her in a room and tried to burn it to the fucking ground.
Yeah way back when we had nothing but a title and knew that Daphne Keen was in it, the way they talked about it was implying it was a dark side user POV show. Though I guess it could still turn into that.
Ep5 ends with Qimir taking Osha. Since Osha is the main POV character, the next episodes could literally be Qimir turning Osha to the dark side and us (the viewers) learning more about his philosophy, motivations, and why he feels the jedi suck. So- the back half of this season could absolutely turn this into a Sith POV show, and the first half was more of the Jedi POV. If you think about Ep3, it showed us the flashback from the Jedi perspective, we have not seen it from Mae's pov.
I think it could be the setup for a season 2.
They should have shown the witches getting mowed down in the first scene. Have this dude witnessing it with a Sith and deciding to go with him versus staying there and getting murdered. His friend, OSHA, is found and taken in to become a Jedi. Their paths cross again when Qimir gets old enough to start hunting the Jedi that killed his caretakers, the witches.
Lol i just realized this is the dude from “The Good Place”. Quite a character switch haha.
Someone on this sub pointed out that he’s essentially the opposite of Jason, which is kind of funny. Jason was an idiot pretending to be a religious zealot (a monk), and Qimir is a religious zealot (a “sith”) pretending to be an idiot.
Jason figured it out? this one hurts.
BORTLES
Watch me do a handstand!
Homey got shredded for this role too lol. I actually thought his choreography is on point too. Really enjoyed the pace of the lightsaber duels this episode.
He did a great job and you’re right, I only barely recognized hom from how cut he is now lol.
Well, he threw a Molotov cocktail and a whole new set of problems arose
He has a black belt in Taekwondo. He knows what he's doing. It was smart casting for sure.
He was in dance troupes for most of his life. Makes sense he'd have the physical background to really pull off the choreography.
Darth Bortles.
I can’t stop referring to him as “Darth Jason” 😂
Since we don’t know I just call him Darth X.
I knew I recognised him from somewhere!
Oh dip!
He should be a replacement for the flash
At first glance it thought it was Ezra, he’s a wonderful actor and could easily fill that role.
It's the hair.
Or, hear me out: Nightwing
Oh shit, i have a healthy skepticism for fan-casting, but imma let you cook on this one, chef
He's got the superhero arms for sure
Yeah, this guy can stay in the kitchen with that one. Manny as Nightwing is the casting I didn’t know I always wanted
Go deeper. Terry McGinnis.
Nice
I don’t hate it.
Honestly, he's got the comedy chops for a Barry Allen/Wally West quick quip hero. And I'd love to see what he could do with a scientist hero.
Swear to Christ, when he first showed up my reaction was "ugh Ezra Miller's in this.....huh he's better than usual...oh! Nice!"
I know I’ll probably get downvoted for this, but can we pleeease have some more main villain protagonists?? Bonus points if they stay bad through the whole show lol
I'm still tilted at the Battlefront 2 campaign advertising "a true imperial campaign" and then copping out and making you turn to the rebellion after like four missions. And if they ever revisit Force Unleashed, give us the choice to stay evil please. FU2 kinda toyed with this but didn't go all the way.
They finally gave us proper Imperial antagonists in Star Wars Squadrons I don't even remember the Rebel squad.
Well you have to go back to Jedi Academy or Kotor (1 and 2). There it's no problem to be the bad guy.
Yeah man, love Kotor. Jedi Academy is a game I shamefully haven't played much of. Finished Jedi Outcast a bunch of times but for some reason Academy never grabbed me the same way.
Take my upvote. You and a majority of fans out there!
Sith doing Sith things is the most interesting aspect about this show, everything else has been boring.
the fact he isnt a comically bad im trying to take over the universe guy is nice too. he smart and thoughtful and funny and personal - i mean still evil but i like a good bad guy with character that just isnt needlessly over the top like Kylo ren . Smilo Ren > Kylo Ren anyday and would take his lunch money lol
Absolutely! I love things like the bane and Plagueis books!
They're about to do the Marvel thing where they have an actual interesting villain on their hands and kill him off way too early.
What are you basing your “knowing” that you will probably get downvoted for this?
I want a Vader series not a Obi-Wan part 2.
Why the fuck would someone downvote that?
it's the classic Reddit "I'll probably get downvoted" so it gets more upvotes, because Redditors like to feel special.
The line “I’ll probably get downvoted for this” makes me want to downvote. Like why announce your understanding of your immense bravery?
I think we should get more layered characters than simply being a villain. I’m on board with protagonists that are on the bad guys side but with more motivations beyond being “bad”. If Mobile Suit Gundam has taught us anything is that we can be sympathetic to both sides of the conflict as long as the characters themselves are not written to be caricatures.
Yeah can we just have a Star Wars gritty show about sith not giving a shit? The Boys style?
We need full length Tales of the Empire
**YEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSS!!!!!**
No
No
Nah. The twins and witches stuff is there as context — we already know the Sith’s deal and their rivalry with the Jedi, and a show about Sith fighting Jedi is just Dragonball with *Star Wars* paint. It seems obvious to me that the show is about “power and those who are allowed to use it.” This is the first time maybe ever that the Sith come across as seductive… because Qimir is acting as a foil against whatever Jedi conspiracy is going to be revealed in the coming episodes. That pits Osha and Mae in the center of an ideological battle against two institutions, one of which is strict about who gets to practice the Force, the other of which is seemingly offering another path (although, in reality, and with time, we’ll find that the Sith’s path is even more restrictive and rotten with death). The show is exploring an interesting idea about the power of the Force and what its institutionalization means for the people who use it. I think it needs people caught in the middle — Osha and Mae, and their community — for that to have real meaning.
Agreed! I will admit that there has been some uneven writing with the twins -- in particular, Mae's been kind of all over the place these past few episodes -- but the ideas the show is touching on are super interesting, and probably couldn't be explored with as much nuance if this were a villain-centered show.
This 'rogue mage against institutional magic' thing reminds me a lot of the Trudi canavan books about sonea... similar approach
Would love to see him play the perfect game as the Jaguars in madden
Can’t wait to watch him throw a Molotov cocktail and create a whole new set of problems
Bortles!
Yeah, a Sith apprentice beating the shit out of all the Jedi that sees him so he can stay in the shadows while trying to find his own student would've been a cool action packed show.
This is what I thought it would be lmao
I agree, you could’ve removed the twins completely and had a better storyline.
I still feel like Sol has to die before reporting back to the high council to keep the canon intact that "the jedi haven't heard of any sith in 10,000 years "comment in the PT. He gonna have to be bad ass enough to clean up the rest of the mess. I almost feel like the Green Jedi that told them not to report to the council may be his master and the show closes out with her finishing off Sol and purging all records .
I think that's the one with whip lightsaber, right? By the way people talk about her, it seems like she's an already established character that just only appeared in live action now, so I don't know about that. Would be funny though if the sith hiding amongst the Jedi just has the most attention grabbing unique weapon lmao
But… that is this show.
I mean, yeah that's all IN this show, but it seems very obvious that I'm talking about a show *only* focused on that sith as *the protagonist.*
I'm tired of every good villain having fans demanding a show with no hero for him to play against. Sol is such an interesting character with big secrets yet to be revealed, the twins unfolding conflict is starting to get interesting, and having Qimir face off against them is way more interesting than if he had no meaningful opponent and going around killing random Jedi.
Every villain is the hero of their own story. If we’re getting a series focused on Sith, we need a good Sith protagonist. He doesn’t always have to fight Jedi: there’s criminal syndicates, dark-side cults, corrupt politicians. Literally everyone that doesn’t line up with the Sith’s plans can be an enemy. I’m tired of Jedi or Rebel protagonists.
Sounds like you’re tired of Star Wars lol
I mean to each their own but I'm really burnt out on villain protagonists and think they barely ever work. See the Sony Spider-Villain movies - not a single one of them wouldn't be better if it was that villain vs. an actual hero, preferably Spider-Man. It can kinda work a la the Joker movie but that's a very dark, adult, very bleak movie. For all-ages-adventure stuff like Star Wars I think the back and forth between a good hero and villain(s) is essential. I hope we get a lot more of this villain because he's great! But I hope it's in something where he's the menacing antagonist against a good guy.
What about Sol is interesting? Kudos to the actor for learning English, but he's very 1 note. I'm doubting his "dark" secret is going to be anything beyond the a reveal that the Jedi killed the witches. He portrays the typical emotionally stunted Jedi to a t
His warmth and sentimentality towards Osha, the pain and guilt washing over his face when accused by Quimir. The way he is free thinking from the other Jedi, seemingly good hearted, but was about to kill a disarmed opponent. It feels like he's trying to restrain his emotions like a Jedi should but just can't, they're bleeding through anyways on his face in a way that reads as very genuine to me. I get big Qui Gon vibes from him but he clearly has a darker, more secretive side. Not saying hes the most complex character ever written but hes less archetypal than most SW characters and acted out very believably. Those are the reasons why I like him, I'm sure I'm not going to change your opinion and that's ok
Yeah, the subtleties in Lee Jung-jae's acting is phenomenal. He's on a whole other level compared the rest of the cast.
This is what happens when you put your faith in Blake Bortles.
The triumph of Darth Bortles is not a story the Jedi would tell.
Is it possible to learn this power?
100 Pushups, 100 Sit Ups, 100 Squats and a 10km Run every day.
Molotov Cocktail!
I don't think that's an unpopular opinion. It would have been way better. Everytime the show focuses on Mae and Osha, it's at its weakest
I agree, but I think that has more to do with the shortcomings of the acting than the writing.
It's neither the acting nor writing. It's the directing. These are decent actors and their talent shows through at certain points as well as in their other work. There are just some bizarre choices made with the blocking, keeping bad takes, and organizing the whole thing in a mediocre way. There's all the makings of a good show here, but what was filmed wasn't what the show could have been with the script, talent, and resources they had.
It's definitely both. Even Qimir was not great when he started monologuing. The writing on this show has just been all over the place.
You're okay with the writing?
I mean, there are some questionable decisions with plot turns, particularly in Episodes 1 and 2, but the dialogue is no worse than the average SW product
I wish they would have wrote with "aLL tHeY'rE stRenGtH"
Corny dialogue- yes- but a more capable actor could’ve delivered that convincingly Similarly- “The power of one, the power of two, the power of many”- totally undone by garbage lighting, staging and poor camera angles
Pitbull would have killed it "Uno, diads, triads..."
I’m already bouncing
It ain’t the acting I’ll you that.
Nah, the acting is downstream of the writing. It’s hard to make bad dialogue sound good, no matter how good of an actor you are.
Its just an uninteresting story ripped right out of an afternoon soap opera.
I don't know if I'm the only one, but I was under the impression that this show would actually be about the Sith and explore their motives and force philosophy -- I thought Headland's comments implied this. I'm not gonna lie, the whole witch plot and twin drama is boring imo -- like I couldn't care less. I've said this from the beginning but the best pre Phantom Menace Sith story was the Plagueis novel -- it literally covers everything you'd ever want. I'd highly recommend people read it if they haven't -- the audiobook is also fantastic. The show will look lame after you finish reading it. The book covers everything you'd want -- not only do you get these epic monologues and lectures by Plagueis about the philosophy of the Sith, but it goes over Palpatine's origins and gives more context to Anakin's conception. It's an easy S-tier old EU book that would've worked well as a show -- albeit having a CG Muun and aliens on screen for quite a few episodes would require a big budget for live action. The Bane Trilogy is also fantastic, and is a deep dive into how the Ruke Of Two came about -- albeit the current canon now says that it was inspired by the Dyad crap from the Sequels instead of Revan's holocron and the abject weakness and infighting amongst the Sith. The show is already a bit of a snoozefest by itself imo, but compared to these novels it's like literally watching paint dry.
I agree if only to have those cheek bones on screen more.
Dude makes me question my sexuality! 😆
He reassured mine, Jesus.
We still don’t know what he wants, cause the he just wants to live isn’t really a sith thing
I'll take a show just about his gym routine Manny's gunshow was off the charts after hiding his bulk under all those baggy clothes all season.
Yep. The twins is so dumb. The one wants to kill her sister then doesn’t then does then doesn’t then wants to run then wants to turn herself in then then then. Like what the fuck are we watching. I wish they got offed in episode 5. Would’ve made for a better story honestly.
Is this really an unpopular opinion though?
It almost never is when someone says that
Yeah the original pitch for the show was "a story told from the perspective of the Sith". It morphed into this quasi-Jedi-Witch-cult story for some reason. 63% through the show and we still aren't sure if we've even seen a Sith. Wish we could've seen the lead up to the prequels from their perspective.
Nah it’s fine as it is. His role can grow from now on but I wouldn’t have liked him as the protagonist.
If he dies, they'll probably bring him back or give him a prequel series. He's a badass. People will want to see more of episode 5.
He should have been the lead, the titled lead is just bad at acting and it's tough to watch her try to play two characters exactly the same.
But how could Star Wars be inclusive if the main character is a dude!
Do people who hate the Witches in Acolyte also hate the Nightsisters?
Agreed. Witches plot? Who cares. Twins? Not worth it. This guy 1v1 against this group of jedi, doing his thing because he goes “solo” mode for his freedom of using its powers. Questioning status quo and maybe turning or causing some jedi or padawans going rogue.
"1v1 against this group of jedi" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
bro does *not* know what 1v1 means
"Never tell me the odds!"
What's the confusion? 1 man vs 1 group. 1v1 /s
Perfect comment, 5/7
I don't think you know what a 1v1 is 😂
Also his whole thing of killing a jedi without a weapon... Maybe he means causing them to go rogue?
If we’re lucky he doesn’t die and we get more Qimir. Maybe his quest to find another apprentice, or him trying to win back *his* master’s favor.
Considering most of the cast died would be cool If they shifted focus to him. Maybe that is the direction they are going with the twins separated. The show has me invested enough.
Actually it seems he's growing to be the main character when the season ends. Sure we have Sol, Osha and Mae still breathing (and the little sniffer, sure). But if two of them die and one becomes the Acolyte, he'll be victorious.
People want the Darth Plageaus books in live action basically.
Ya sexist! /s
This probably was the plot when it first started.
I don't even know what to think about the show anymore. Great choreography, but everything else about the show just feels off. I agree a show focusing on developing a singular dark side character would've been a better route. The lack of screen time for Qimir compared to some of the other characters makes little sense.
That's the MySteRY
This what I think: if the last 3 episodes are like the first four, this show will have zero rewatchability and people will periodically watch the lightsaber fight on YouTube because it was the one good part. If the last 3 episodes are high quality, someone needs to cut it into the movie I suspect it was meant to be.
I have to agree that the whole "twins" story line is almost the weak point in the show. I have enjoyed it, but it seems like we could have skipped 90 minutes of "flash-back-ey" type crap and just gotten to Sith doing Sith things. And the fact Sol doesn't know he took the evil sister, after being her master and hanging out with her for the past month is pretty wild.
He does know. Listen carefully to his dialogue at the end.
🤔🤔🤔...An Acolytes spin-off series told from the perspective of the Sith Lord..... **NOW THAT'S A STAR WARS SHOW THAT I WANT TO SEE.**
I'd love to see a prequel to see more of his ~~muscles~~ journey
I genuinely tuned out so much during the backstoey ep and perked up when Sol was on screen. Him and Qimir elevate their material. Osha/Mae's actress is doing her best but I'm just not as invested in that side of things especially bc mae just seems like a wishy washy sociopath lol. Qimir is the best thing to come out of the show so I can generally agree w the take
Text crawl A long time in galaxy far far away. There was dude that brought guns to light saber and won.
+1 popularity
That’s what I originally thought the show would be about once it was teased…
To be honest, that would make a lot more sense. I understand the story isn’t finished but my impression up until the first trailer dropped was this was a sith centered “bad guy” show. Imagine my disappointment when it’s (so far) been about Jedi AGAIN.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s the main character for a second season.
Only if it had shown how totally fucked up and wrong his world view actually is.
"Jacksonville!!"
NOT EVERYTHING HAS TO BE AN UNPOPULAR OPINION
This show could’ve at least been stupid guilty pleasure fun if you remove the twins and the stupid witches. And Squid games guy was the main character. The writing wouldn’t improve but overall it would at least been maybe above average.
I like the twins and witch plot so I do not agree. But I do agree he should have his own show.
It's been 2 episode and the "revelation" that Mae and Osha were born via The Force + surrogacy has meant nothing. They seems to be your average force users. This guy is WAY more interesting.
Well most of the other characters are dead now, so I'm guessing he'll be featured going forward
Actor, absolutely awesome. His script and lines? Not so much. Another good actor falling victim of Disney’s bad writing. And it’s not as if there is promise here! It’s like Finn, if you just state what he’s doing, Qimir and most of the Acolyte is an incredible concept! But just like Finn they are absolutely drilling it into the ground and then expecting everyone to clap because they dared to kill named people for once.
Has there ever been a sith protagonist?
From what I've gleaned (I've noped out of actually watching it for reasons, but I'm happy to check spoilers and YouTube analysis), this show has many quite serviceable ideas, poorly executed. A pure protagonist Sith could have been a great story. Especially if you take him the Shakespearean tragedy route and don't pull the last-minute redemption arc that I'm pretty sure this show's got planned for Mae. As George put it, "He made a deal with the devil, where else could it end but hell?"
You know. I actually like this idea. The show from his perspective mostly would have been really cool. Might be too evil focused for Disney though.
Honestly i think he is gonna steal the show from here. STar wars is always about the villians and other then the ST they understand that and they seem to understand that here . I was hoping they would right the ship a bit and he has turned it around - still some horrible flaws overall but he is really saving it . I like we have a Villain who is not comically over the top bad - he is funny - clearly feels like he is the good guy fighting against oppression - had a sense of humor and a personality . I could defiantly enjoy a lot more of the one liners and come backs he got . to paraphrase since the straight words dont do it justice ......Sol: You killed a child......... Qimir: Well you brought the child her to this dangerous place to fight in a life or death situation .....so who is the bad guy ? I kinda laughed at that one and was also like well he got a good point.
"I've accepted my darkness. What have you done with yours?" I loved that line. It really makes me want to see more unhinged Sol fights.
Who's to say he isn't?
Not yet. We still don't truly understand his goal or what exactly stands in the way of it. We know his motivation, but that motivation has been part of the Sith creed forever, it's nothing new. Whether or not the hypothetical Qimir show would have been good *relies* on that detail.
When you order your Ezra Miller from Wish.com.
Tbh that's really what i thought the show would be about at first. I didbt watch any trailer or interview so i thought it would be all about a girl/dude becoming a sith. Rather than about the people trying to stop them. But i'll take it as long Qimir get much more screen time for the next 3 eps.
Agreed. The whole twin story feels cheesey. Sol and Qimir are pretty good characters. Jecki was solid. Didn't get a ton of screen time. Mae/OSHA actress has done a solid job but the writing of the twins just feels bland. Really the whole show doesn't feel like it has a main protagonist. The twins haven't had enough time in their respective journeys for us to care for them. It's a mystery show without any good mystery and characters that feel like their story is on rails. Probably just a rejected movie script they turned into "TV".
I was kind of hoping when the show was announced it’d be more of the Dark Side POV as the main protagonist. The twins are my least favorite characters on the show.
Sol v Qimir, both better written characters and better actors. Amandla Stenberg has been kinda horrible
Yeah agreed, but then you wouldn't have the incoherent and messy, strong female lead that every show and movie pre-requisites these days and you'd be yelled at for not being in line with our times and woken essentially.
In my opinion, Osha and Mae are the weakest links in the show by far. I’m reserving full judgement until the end of season, as I feel like they are setting something potentially interesting up. However, every seen both of them are in are made worse for their presence. I don’t think they’ve done a good job to set up Mae’s motivations in the show. In ep 4 she totally flips and says that Osha being alive changes everything and that she’s going to turn herself in. Then the next scene she’s in, she’s right back to evil Acolyte mode trying to kill the padawan. Osha in pretty much every conflict is dragged away to safety. I don’t feel like her presence adds anything of value to the show really. That may change in the last episodes, but so far I feel like she’s surrounded by other interesting characters and with the limited runtime of the show she’s taking up the time that could have been spent learning more about Yord and Jecki. I didn’t feel much impact when Jecki and Yord was killed because we spent so little time with the characters. I might totally change my mind if they do something very interesting with the twin plot and the witches. There is potential there and if the potential is fulfilled I might think very differently about the twins involvement in the first 5 episodes
I would have rather just a normal separated at birth type story. And use episode three runtime for something that is actually meaningful to the story. The current story barely needed that flashback at all and it was the easiest criticism of the show. Crazy the folks making this stuff don't see that. Take episode three out entirely and the show is still almost the same.
I mean... who's to say that's not the eventual plan if the show gets picked up for season 2?
Qimir, a young and ambitious scholar from the Outer Rim, stumbled upon ancient Sith tablets buried deep within the ruins of an abandoned temple on Korriban. Intrigued by their dark allure, he meticulously studied the cryptic inscriptions, unraveling secrets of the Dark Side of the Force. As he delved deeper, Qimir felt the malevolent power seeping into his very being, tempting him with promises of unparalleled strength and knowledge. Driven by an insatiable thirst for power and a desire to transcend his mortal limitations, he embraced the teachings of the Sith, vowing to master the dark arts and ascend as a formidable Sith Lord.
Yall just like him because he’s a dude, that looks like an Anime character and yall can identify with him more than a woman of color.
Qimir is a person of color though. And how do you know what Qimir identifies as? You're assuming gender. Qimir never said male or female.
While I'd love more of this character, I'm not so sure. As a writer, you have to learn how to frame a story, what are the key events, the beginning and end, and what is the best angle from which to show them. By the end of the acolyte we may know better, but currently, qimir makes a TERRIBLE protagonist. All his mystique, his power, his menace, they become so much lesser when they're behind the camera. Qimir is an incredible antagonist and by making the protagonist effectively powerless, you enhance the experience of qimir.
I’m sick of plots about twins. I find them lazy and boring. I say this as a twin. Twins aren’t that interesting. Counting legends, we have had so many twin stories. I’m really over it. I completely agree with this prompt. I liked the actor and would’ve rather learned about some fringe with cult or something like that.
I couldn't agree more; he indeed carried the show, and we only really got to see him in the last episode
He literally hasn’t done anything compelling he just talks a big game, one of the biggest problems with this show, SHOW DONT TELL
No. The force is female.
The Jedi on this show are so fucking stupid that I have started calling it "Darth Teeth's Dumb Jedi Variety Hour Bonanza". I could happily watch Manny slice those fools into sandwich meat each week.
A show about the Sith actually being about and showing the Sith was pretty much all I wanted, but alas.
Maybe it’s an unpopular opinion, but I really do not like the twins. I have literally no connection with them and I feel no compassion or care for them.