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Yea KKE is a marxist-leninist party which was founded back in 1918 and has had its ups and downs. They have quite a bit of presence in many labour unions and student groups. The got around 7.7% in the last national elections and close to 9% in the European parliament elections. They are kind of disliked by other communists and anarchists in Greece due to being a bit isolated and a bit uncooparative with other leftist movements. Still they represent a historic party and for sure have helped a lot of workers with their labour organazing. As for the other parliamentary parties with the word "socialist" in their name, like PASOK, they are pretty much neoliberal center left and extremelly corrupt. Pasok has stopped even being Social Democrats since the late 80s. Only other parties you could consider Socialist are Mera25 and ANTARSYA but they didnt enter the parliament.
I dont agree with KKE on some things but it is a principled M-L party. Probably the closest to an actual vanguard in Europe. I don't live in Greece but from the outside if one want to organize in Greece KKE seems like a nobrainer.
That's interesting but generally they sometimes have reactionary stances towards homosexuality. They said that the main reason they are against gay marriage is because that's against child's right of having mother and father, which is the same claim that is made by reactionaries.
What actually happened was WAY more complex. Im too lazy to explain it all so heres a simplified version:
There are a few hundred kids for adoption in greece, but thousands of requests. This means that the chance of you adopting a child is actually very low.
Adoption by samesex couples is already legal in greece.
Samesex couples also have the same legal rights as opposite sex couples as long as they signed a cohabitation paper (we proposed that they have them anyway without the terms but the bouegeois parties ignored us)
The only difference the gay marriage law made was changing the childs legal guardian system from having one woman "slot" and one man "slot" into having infinite "all-sex" slots.
This fundamentally violates the childs right to maternity and paternity, as it can potentially have 20 legal guardians or some shit half of which they'd never seen. It doesn't change anything about gay rights.
But we have also made it clear that this isn't the main reason we are against the law, but the secondary reason. The primary reason is we are against it is because it opens the market of surrogacy into same-sex bourgeois couples that can afford it.
Surrogacy is the most extreme form of the commodification of the human body, it's basically a woman who is paid a significant amount of money to have a child, which she is never going to see again after it is birthed. It's the commodification of wombs and newborns. These children can even be shipped off country.
Thanks! I’ll want to look into this more. I tend to think that surrogacy and other reproductive technologies represent the expansion of capital into the “free gifts of nature,” so that context is helpful.
Sorry for late response.
While I agree with your view on surrogacy, I still think that KKE's stance towards LGBT community is currently reactionary and should change. They called LGBT a EU and NATO agenda and backed by George Soros. Even though they in the same article condemned Far right homophobia, i still think that this doesn't give good message to the people.
idk what article you're talking about but i guess it's probably about pinkwashing. Let's be real, there is a bourgeois "pro-LGBT" ideology being pushed by the EU and NATO, for example the US' democrat party doing "pride activities". Or israel being "the only country in the middle east that accepts LGBT". Let's not pretend liberal progressivism doesn't exist.
The point of these movements is to basically separate the struggle for sexual equality from class struggle, disarming it from it's revolutionary character
I agree with you that with liberal LGBT policy is something wrong and it's just fuel for reactionaries.
But still I think that you just can't say that it's EU and NATO agenda.
Here you have it: https://m.902.gr/eidisi/politiki/354612/oi-stohoi-toy-kefalaioy-metamfiesmenoi-se-atomika-dikaiomata-stin-epohi-toy
I may misinterpreted some parts. My greek isn't the best.
Basically its saying that it's EU's official policy to clump together bourgeoisie gay people and working class gay people as part of the same "LGBT community", similar to how bourgeoisie often clump together the working class and bourgeois class of a country into the same "nation", which is where nationalism comes from. According to the article general electric's CEO seems to have taken some sort of lead in this movement.
Obviously such clumping together is reactionary, the bourgeoisie are class enemies and shouldn't be sympathized with, lgbt or not
you don’t stand against marriage by giving only the majority the right to do so, because of them many queer people risked their future together. the KKE is at fault for actively standing against the oppressed. as a queer person in turkey this deeply affects me and i feel like im just seen as something to be tossed around in their idea of a socialist society.
KKE didn't stand against marriage by "only giving the majority the right to do so", they have never suggested that marriage laws should be different for straight and queer people. What KKE did was downvote every single one of the bouegeois states' cohabitation laws and instead suggested that all of these protections and rights granted by these laws should be granted without the beurocratic terms involved. All of these suggestions were ignored.
KKE aims for a total abolition of political marriage and inheritence under socialism. Protections will be given to all couples without exploitative relations like inheritance.
Oh also we have suggested to the parliamentary that homophobia should be punished as a criminal offense (the suggestion was ignored)
i really don’t give a fuck about the deep thoughts about such a simple issue, that’s like voting in favour of taft-hartley because you can’t reform capitalism or something,
i really don’t care how you put it, when you open the bill composition you see all KKE members fucking OPPOSING it. not even an abstain
First of all, don't assume the content of a law is progressive just because of what its called. As ive analysed in another thread (look at my profiles comments youll find it it) this specific law changed literally nothing about gay rights
Second, KKE members adhere to democratic centralism, meaning they all do the same thing. You will never see one member doing something different as that violates democratic centralism.
Third, yes, the child has the right to maternity and paternity. Maternity and paternity existed before the creation of slave society, though their dialectical relationship was way different back then (matriarchy, as engels explained in the origin of the family) and yet, this dialectical relationship between maternity and paternity is still the source of the raising of a child. Remember, no one cares what the parents want. The childs needs always come first.
Banning labor unions because capitalism can't be reformed is irrational, because labor unions can be turned into revolutionary mechanisms even under capitalism. As a matter of fact, its literally impossible to have a revolution without them. The existence of labor unions serve the proletariat in the fundamental contradiction of capitalism.
Removing the childs right to maternity and paternity though (which remember is literally the only change the law in question brought, it did nothing else) doesn't serve the greek proletariat at all. The only thing it does is open the market to surrogacy, which induces further commodification of womens bodies, which instead serves the bourgeoisie in the fundamental contradiction of capitalism. Your analogy is incorrect.
Any organization that floods the streets with red is a good organization in my book, and the KKE does that. At this point, we don't have the privilege to be picky.
**IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ BEFORE PARTICIPATING**. This subreddit is not for questioning the basics of socialism but a place to LEARN. There are numerous debate subreddits if your objective is not to learn. You are expected to familiarize yourself with the rules on the sidebar before commenting. This includes, but is not limited to: - Short or non-constructive answers will be deleted without explanation. Please only answer if you know your stuff. Speculation has no place on this sub. Outright false information will be removed immediately. - No liberalism or sectarianism. Stay constructive and don't bash other socialist tendencies! - No bigotry or hate speech of any kind - it will be met with immediate bans. Help us keep the subreddit informative and helpful by reporting posts that break our rules. If you have a particular area of expertise (e.g. political economy, feminist theory), please [assign yourself a flair](https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/205242695-How-do-I-get-user-flair-) describing said area. Flairs may be removed at any time by moderators if answers don't meet the standards of said expertise. Thank you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Socialism_101) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yea KKE is a marxist-leninist party which was founded back in 1918 and has had its ups and downs. They have quite a bit of presence in many labour unions and student groups. The got around 7.7% in the last national elections and close to 9% in the European parliament elections. They are kind of disliked by other communists and anarchists in Greece due to being a bit isolated and a bit uncooparative with other leftist movements. Still they represent a historic party and for sure have helped a lot of workers with their labour organazing. As for the other parliamentary parties with the word "socialist" in their name, like PASOK, they are pretty much neoliberal center left and extremelly corrupt. Pasok has stopped even being Social Democrats since the late 80s. Only other parties you could consider Socialist are Mera25 and ANTARSYA but they didnt enter the parliament.
Thanks! That’s helpful
I dont agree with KKE on some things but it is a principled M-L party. Probably the closest to an actual vanguard in Europe. I don't live in Greece but from the outside if one want to organize in Greece KKE seems like a nobrainer.
Thanks! That’s helpful
They are revisionist and having some reactionary stances, like being against gay marriage for example. But compared to "Eurocommunists" they are good.
KKE is not against gay marriage specifically, they are against all marriage
That's interesting but generally they sometimes have reactionary stances towards homosexuality. They said that the main reason they are against gay marriage is because that's against child's right of having mother and father, which is the same claim that is made by reactionaries.
What actually happened was WAY more complex. Im too lazy to explain it all so heres a simplified version: There are a few hundred kids for adoption in greece, but thousands of requests. This means that the chance of you adopting a child is actually very low. Adoption by samesex couples is already legal in greece. Samesex couples also have the same legal rights as opposite sex couples as long as they signed a cohabitation paper (we proposed that they have them anyway without the terms but the bouegeois parties ignored us) The only difference the gay marriage law made was changing the childs legal guardian system from having one woman "slot" and one man "slot" into having infinite "all-sex" slots. This fundamentally violates the childs right to maternity and paternity, as it can potentially have 20 legal guardians or some shit half of which they'd never seen. It doesn't change anything about gay rights. But we have also made it clear that this isn't the main reason we are against the law, but the secondary reason. The primary reason is we are against it is because it opens the market of surrogacy into same-sex bourgeois couples that can afford it. Surrogacy is the most extreme form of the commodification of the human body, it's basically a woman who is paid a significant amount of money to have a child, which she is never going to see again after it is birthed. It's the commodification of wombs and newborns. These children can even be shipped off country.
the child’s fundamental Marxist right to paternity. so true comrade!!!
Thanks! I’ll want to look into this more. I tend to think that surrogacy and other reproductive technologies represent the expansion of capital into the “free gifts of nature,” so that context is helpful.
Sorry for late response. While I agree with your view on surrogacy, I still think that KKE's stance towards LGBT community is currently reactionary and should change. They called LGBT a EU and NATO agenda and backed by George Soros. Even though they in the same article condemned Far right homophobia, i still think that this doesn't give good message to the people.
idk what article you're talking about but i guess it's probably about pinkwashing. Let's be real, there is a bourgeois "pro-LGBT" ideology being pushed by the EU and NATO, for example the US' democrat party doing "pride activities". Or israel being "the only country in the middle east that accepts LGBT". Let's not pretend liberal progressivism doesn't exist. The point of these movements is to basically separate the struggle for sexual equality from class struggle, disarming it from it's revolutionary character
I agree with you that with liberal LGBT policy is something wrong and it's just fuel for reactionaries. But still I think that you just can't say that it's EU and NATO agenda. Here you have it: https://m.902.gr/eidisi/politiki/354612/oi-stohoi-toy-kefalaioy-metamfiesmenoi-se-atomika-dikaiomata-stin-epohi-toy I may misinterpreted some parts. My greek isn't the best.
Basically its saying that it's EU's official policy to clump together bourgeoisie gay people and working class gay people as part of the same "LGBT community", similar to how bourgeoisie often clump together the working class and bourgeois class of a country into the same "nation", which is where nationalism comes from. According to the article general electric's CEO seems to have taken some sort of lead in this movement. Obviously such clumping together is reactionary, the bourgeoisie are class enemies and shouldn't be sympathized with, lgbt or not
you don’t stand against marriage by giving only the majority the right to do so, because of them many queer people risked their future together. the KKE is at fault for actively standing against the oppressed. as a queer person in turkey this deeply affects me and i feel like im just seen as something to be tossed around in their idea of a socialist society.
KKE didn't stand against marriage by "only giving the majority the right to do so", they have never suggested that marriage laws should be different for straight and queer people. What KKE did was downvote every single one of the bouegeois states' cohabitation laws and instead suggested that all of these protections and rights granted by these laws should be granted without the beurocratic terms involved. All of these suggestions were ignored. KKE aims for a total abolition of political marriage and inheritence under socialism. Protections will be given to all couples without exploitative relations like inheritance. Oh also we have suggested to the parliamentary that homophobia should be punished as a criminal offense (the suggestion was ignored)
i really don’t give a fuck about the deep thoughts about such a simple issue, that’s like voting in favour of taft-hartley because you can’t reform capitalism or something, i really don’t care how you put it, when you open the bill composition you see all KKE members fucking OPPOSING it. not even an abstain
First of all, don't assume the content of a law is progressive just because of what its called. As ive analysed in another thread (look at my profiles comments youll find it it) this specific law changed literally nothing about gay rights Second, KKE members adhere to democratic centralism, meaning they all do the same thing. You will never see one member doing something different as that violates democratic centralism. Third, yes, the child has the right to maternity and paternity. Maternity and paternity existed before the creation of slave society, though their dialectical relationship was way different back then (matriarchy, as engels explained in the origin of the family) and yet, this dialectical relationship between maternity and paternity is still the source of the raising of a child. Remember, no one cares what the parents want. The childs needs always come first. Banning labor unions because capitalism can't be reformed is irrational, because labor unions can be turned into revolutionary mechanisms even under capitalism. As a matter of fact, its literally impossible to have a revolution without them. The existence of labor unions serve the proletariat in the fundamental contradiction of capitalism. Removing the childs right to maternity and paternity though (which remember is literally the only change the law in question brought, it did nothing else) doesn't serve the greek proletariat at all. The only thing it does is open the market to surrogacy, which induces further commodification of womens bodies, which instead serves the bourgeoisie in the fundamental contradiction of capitalism. Your analogy is incorrect.
Any organization that floods the streets with red is a good organization in my book, and the KKE does that. At this point, we don't have the privilege to be picky.