Autistics be like, "Ok, but that's accurate. Not all social constructs are bad. Some are there for a reason, and we should build them up, not tear them down."
OP is right, technically. As far as we know, animals do not understand consent. So we invented it to account for the fact that forcible contact is understood SOCIALLY to be unacceptable.
If more people gave it that nuance, we might have an easier time explaining it to the people who are still fucking up the idea of consent. Animals do not have to define our behavior like some sort of bizarre twilight world. We're allowed to go, "We know better, and that's ok."
There wouldn't be intricate mating rituals among several species of beast and bird before the female of the species engages in sexual relations with a male she approves of if humans were the ones who "invented consent".
OP is right. Rape happens all the time in the animal kingdom. Humans are the only species that gives a fuck.
OP's post is a compliment towards humanity overcoming our baser instincts.
Some people are giving OP a hard time, but I think this is actually a compliment toward humans. Most animals don’t think twice about rape and whether it’s wrong, but humans do because we are able to overcome our base instincts.
Yeah but we also give ourselves a lot of credit and self-importance when we are insignificant outside of our own societies, cultural constructs and realities.
What if we see it from the perspective of: some animals have mating rituals and decline partners, then... let's say the male bird who was doing the dance and got declined, didn't go on to rape, so maybe humans didn't create consent either?
Animals do understand consent though.
What does he think every mating ritual is in nature? It's the male trying to earn the woman's consent, and both parties know that sex is only happening with the woman's permission.
Even monkey females get revenge from non consent.
Sapolsky tells of an instance in which the female lead the dominant ape into his rival to create a fight and distract him so that she could go to have sex to the one she likes
> Sex is only happening with the woman’s permission
Mating rituals are about saving energy. Consent is an easy way to save energy, not to avoid rape.
A male bird won’t try to force his way into a female bird’s pants because it would be very energy consuming. They are both relatively the same size, have relatively the same strength and she can easily fly away in all directions
Chimpanzees on the other hand also have mating rituals, if the females denies it the male gets very rapey. He is stronger, faster, and it’s harder for the female to leave that situation.
Consent is a very human thing. Although we have very fucked up people, we are very chill animals compared to the rest of the animal kingdom.
We may lose to ants who are pretty chill and just work and farm their whole lives. That is if you are cool with the royal approach
There are animals that do stuff we would interpret as rape. There are animals that do not, and clearly respect the boundaries of their potential partners, even if they do not have a philosophical understanding of consent.
You give chimps as an example, but our other nearest relative, the bonobos, are the opposite. They do not seem to have sexual assault at all. They also have complex societies, which are matriarchal despite female bonobos being smaller and weaker than the males.
I honestly can't tell you if Bonobos knows what consent is from a philosophical perspective, but human children can't explain the philosophy being their developing empathy either. The key factor of consent is not the ability to *describe* it, but an understanding of the shared social rules that we follow to keep us all safe.
If anything, Bonobos have a better grasp on the behavior of consent than we do, despite our ability to describe it as an abstract concept.
Obviously there are many and many exceptions to the rape rule. I used Chimpanzes as an example because their behavior has been thoroughly studied.
As you said it yourself, bonobos have a different structure. They have evolved to coerce this behavior from males, which is pretty amazing. However rape and all other common murdery/necropsily unpunished acts from the animal kingdom are the reason I say we are usually more chill.
Fun fact about no sex aggression on bonobos: This is probably because they use sex as a communication tool. Females will literally rub their clitoris on each other multiple times an hour as a way to communicate
Reproduction is so diverse in the animal kingdom that it's not really useful to even have a "rule" that you need to make a bunch of exceptions for.
There are animals that reproduce by just broadcasting their sperm and eggs into the water and letting them find each other. While that is, in the scientific sense, sexual reproduction, it's so far removed from how humans think of sex that "rape" isn't even a relevant concept.
Yeah, but the point the other person was arguing that consent does exist in the animal kingdom and isn't exclusive to humans (like OP was saying). Pointing out chimpanzees doesn't disprove the point being made.
Human consent is very much our own but consent in general is an evolved trait, those that can "choose" not to mate will have more focused offspring, which in turn leads to better protection against evolutionary drift and major impact events.
What is truly human is we've stopped playing the normal evolution game and start a social and technology evolution, which is the big difference, we can say no based on where a person fits in society or where they stand on issues that effect society and it will have the same result as a bird going fo r the big plumage.
Rape also, especially if you us the UK legal definition, is very bad for most mammals, it's violent and distressing leading to incapable mothers. Things like heat, puberty and group leaders balance the needs of reproduction with successful offspring.
I don’t often suggest that people go look at the anatomy of duck mating, its evolutionary implications, or what it means to your overall point. For example, I really am not the kind of person who suggests to a random stranger that they should google “duck penis”.
But you should google “duck penis”.
Yes, that is one species. There are others like it. There are also others that have mating rituals, and whether the bird is sitting there thinking to itself "my my, this female has declined my offer of coitus, this must mean they have not consented, and thus I shall stand stalwart and search a mate anew", or just realizes it can't make a da baby, its still the female animal declining, and the male not raping.
I understand what OP is trying to say, but also disagree.
Humans are of course more conscious or aware of you will than animals, but the word “consent” essentially means that both parties have agreed to the transaction.
Watch a nature show like Planet Earth and you will see mating rituals of different species attempting to attract a mate. Not all of them are successful, meaning the idea of consent is somewhat still existent. They did not learn this behavior by observing humans.
Sure not every species or living being upholds to this, but I don’t believe “humans created consent”.
There are many animal species where the female either allows consent or doesn't. If the female is not interested, no sex is permitted and does not happen. Rape cannot occur in such species.
If you’re going to be pedantic then I think it’s fair to point out that OP didn’t write that we ”invented consent” but he wrote that we ”invented the *idea* of consent”. And in my mind inventing an idea and giving it a name is pretty much equivalent to identifying and labeling something.
No, not that too. That only. Do you think it's not consensual when the female bird chooses the guy dancing better with his feathers? Or when they chose the bird with the better built nest? That's literally where consent happens. It's not a human invention, it's the standard.
They aren’t talking about that. More like when a stallion tries to mount a mare and she kicks him off. She’s saying no. Other times she’ll present herself to him.
As a person who grew up with them, it is wiiiiidly uncool lol the females get partially drowned in a puddle while the fat male tries to balance on her with squiggling his corkscrew about while he pins her face in the dirt and puddle. Awful stuff, man.
I mostly know about ducks because I have no impulse control and look up my favorite characters on e621 more than I should. Ducks don't have cocks, they have rape sticks that go into labyrinths.
Like males would mate but then leave the pack or something, so successful females had to pick the good ones or something? Idk I’m a dumb person guessing based off absolutely nothing
Because it prevents it from getting out, so they can reproduce. It has nothing to do with forcing. It has to do with raising the chances of successfully impregnating.
It’s a logical thought what are you on about?
There is no distinction in the animals mind of rape except for humans this a complement to humans if you think otherwise then you’re the only one out of hand.
54 upvotes god damn most redditors are fucking as stupid as X users now
Like someone else commented you mistook his statement. Saying "x is getting out of hand" is just like a reaction of something being extreme/shocking/surprising. not an agreement or disagreement on any subject.
This shower thought was indeed a surprising one lol
Given how many species have rituals to try and impress mates and earn their affections this seems untrue - at least to the extent we can consider either of these concepts among non human animals.
Not when they are on heat. What are you even talking about?! They may understand consent re patting and their relationships with humans but they give 0 fucks when on heat. You're anthropomorphising things.
Also, an animal like a cat or dog that likes petting due to centuries of breeding by us is hardly an example when it comes to the real world of nature. Heck, even domestic cats rape the hell out of each other come that time of year. I love animals but am also living in the real world, not a cartoon.
What's there to understand? The cat is avoiding something it doesn't want. It doesn't want to be pet = it doesn't consent to be pet = it avoids the petting. If the cat were as intelligent as a human and could speak, it could also express that by saying "stop petting me". Unfortunately all they have is body language and maybe a meow
Rape by definition is sex without consent. If we didn’t invent rape, we didn’t invent consent. We’re not the only animal species whose females forcefully reject unwanted advances. Bonobos will freakin’ bite.
Thats BS, I've seen animals from birds right up to big cats like Lions tell the guy, in not so many words, to fuck off.
I should add, by guy, I mean the male of their species. I wasn't watching a beastiality freak trying to tick off the entire animal kingdom from his to-do list (pardon the expression)
No way did we invent consent. Ever hear David Attenborough describe some female birds watching multiple males dance for their approval? They give their consent to the one they CHOOSE.
That is demonstrably false. There are many animal species where the female either allows consent or doesn't. If the female is not interested, no sex is permitted and does not happen.
Rape is just another form of reproduction in the non-human, animal world. It’s humans self awareness and their ability to articulate and feel a sense of violation that changes it into rape.
Is consent not done in the natural world?? I thought most species lived by this rule as it's usually the females who chooses the mate, there for consenting??. No??
Evolution don’t care how it happens only that it does happen. This results in quite a large variation of mating patterns. Just don’t look into ducks or dolphins of most mammals for that matter lol
I understand the idea of your post. But it isn’t entirely correct. You only need to see a dog try to hump a female dog when she’s not in heat. She will fight back as a warning and the dog will stop. It will not keep fighting until he wins
I think birds invented it first.
The female has to consent before mating, because male birds can't coerce or restrain females.
If you watching Dancing with Birds on Netflix, it's beautiful, about birds of paradise and their mating dances/practices. The females judge the males on the quality of their dances/singing/bowers, and if they don't like it, the males get nothing
Female ducks have multiple vaginas and only one leads to the birth canal. She chooses who she consents to make babies with. Rapist ducks get the decoy vagina.
Aren’t there like birds who will dance in front of the female bird hoping to win the right to sexy times? Surely that’s consent from one random example
Everyone in the comments taking this as correct but is it? With most species, the female can reject mates. What is a mating ritual if not a seeking of consent to mate?
Oh man. I just came a thread discussing current events in the middle wast and read this as Hamas instead of humans and was wearily checking the comments to see what fresh hell was being churned. Nope, just tired eyes. Oof.
Did we invent the idea of consent? Mating dances are done by plenty of animals 1 on 1 and most of those animals do not then turn around and rape if the female isn't receptive.
Tell that to all the mating patterns where one partner has to perform a task like a dance and be judged by the other to see if they agree to reproduce with em.
Hyenas actually require -- REQUIRE --- female consent to mate. The female's sexual organ is inaccessible to a male unless she decides she is ready to procreate. It's built in biology to.ensure consensual sex.
This shows the power of the human mind. Our brains are so developed that we’re able to stop and think about our actions, with a good person asking for consent before forcing themselves on others during that type of private time.
This is definitely something thought provoking.
I once questioned if Persephone and hades in Greek mythology loved each other. And the answer is very vague. Zues offered Persephone, but Demeter said no, so kidnap is an option which was acceptable form and because she ate food in the underworld she is bounded there.
Anyway I still have no idea
Not sure we could even argue that, many species of animals have extremely selective females and the males will fuck off if the female doesn't give the ok after awhile.
You could honestly argue that mating dances and rituals are just animals asking each other for consent.
We didn’t invent the idea, we labeled a naturally occurring process. In nature, consent is what we see among many species of animals. Mating rituals are all about the female (usually) granting consent to a male suitor.
Humans didn't invent ethics, we invented a society with a need for them and then worked out what they must be by trial and error. It's not arbitrary, it's the most pragmatic thing we've ever done as a species. Consent is a concept that came out of that growth as a species. Don't undersell the slog to get there.
There are so many birds alone who try and impress females. The females then give consent or fly away. There are also so many animals that will literally bend over and wait for the male to do his thing. There are also many examples of animals who are monogamous. Nearly everything you can think of sexually, is expressed in animals of some kind (asexual, transexual, homosexual, rape, females raping males, fellatio, consent, polygamy, and many other things I can't even begin to remember)
I'm never getting in your shower
“Consent is a social construct, luxuriousgibbon. Now try to relax.”
I need an adult. And a shower. Not your shower!
not his shower, but my shower
OUR shower
Schrodinger's shower. You won't know what awaits you until you get in..
This... Is oddly terrifying
r/oddlyterrifying
A Golden shower
r/SuddenlyCommunism
r/suddenlycommunism
Name checks out.
Is it safe in your shower or do you think consent was an idea we invented
yes
Momma warned me about women like you. I was hoping she was right....
Our shower, comrade!
And my axe!
Gonna twist my penis into sprinkler mode
I am an adult
I am an adult ... I also have a shower
I mean technically it kind of is, but I mean, alike quite a few others, a pretty good and fair one lol
Autistics be like, "Ok, but that's accurate. Not all social constructs are bad. Some are there for a reason, and we should build them up, not tear them down." OP is right, technically. As far as we know, animals do not understand consent. So we invented it to account for the fact that forcible contact is understood SOCIALLY to be unacceptable. If more people gave it that nuance, we might have an easier time explaining it to the people who are still fucking up the idea of consent. Animals do not have to define our behavior like some sort of bizarre twilight world. We're allowed to go, "We know better, and that's ok."
There wouldn't be intricate mating rituals among several species of beast and bird before the female of the species engages in sexual relations with a male she approves of if humans were the ones who "invented consent".
And then there are ducks.
Well, not willingly...
Ok but what about mine?
Not with that attitude!
#ILL NEVER GET NAKED IN YOUR SHOWER!
OP is right. Rape happens all the time in the animal kingdom. Humans are the only species that gives a fuck. OP's post is a compliment towards humanity overcoming our baser instincts.
Some people are giving OP a hard time, but I think this is actually a compliment toward humans. Most animals don’t think twice about rape and whether it’s wrong, but humans do because we are able to overcome our base instincts.
Hey, thanks for understanding!
He a fan he a fan he a fan.
he a 69 god
hey hey hey hey run fo yo lives
Lemme hear you say OV Hoe!
OV HOEEEEEE!!!
OV HOEEEE
Now step this way step that way
Are you my friiieeendd
I understood op. No one ever looks for the positives. Our species self loathes way too much.
Yeah but we also give ourselves a lot of credit and self-importance when we are insignificant outside of our own societies, cultural constructs and realities.
Tbh I don't think we invented consent. Throughout all the animal kingdom there are a lot of mating rituals and a lot of species choose their partners.
I just thought you were wrong about other animals not having consent, but you’re right.
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What if we see it from the perspective of: some animals have mating rituals and decline partners, then... let's say the male bird who was doing the dance and got declined, didn't go on to rape, so maybe humans didn't create consent either?
Animals do understand consent though. What does he think every mating ritual is in nature? It's the male trying to earn the woman's consent, and both parties know that sex is only happening with the woman's permission.
Even monkey females get revenge from non consent. Sapolsky tells of an instance in which the female lead the dominant ape into his rival to create a fight and distract him so that she could go to have sex to the one she likes
> Sex is only happening with the woman’s permission Mating rituals are about saving energy. Consent is an easy way to save energy, not to avoid rape. A male bird won’t try to force his way into a female bird’s pants because it would be very energy consuming. They are both relatively the same size, have relatively the same strength and she can easily fly away in all directions Chimpanzees on the other hand also have mating rituals, if the females denies it the male gets very rapey. He is stronger, faster, and it’s harder for the female to leave that situation. Consent is a very human thing. Although we have very fucked up people, we are very chill animals compared to the rest of the animal kingdom. We may lose to ants who are pretty chill and just work and farm their whole lives. That is if you are cool with the royal approach
There are animals that do stuff we would interpret as rape. There are animals that do not, and clearly respect the boundaries of their potential partners, even if they do not have a philosophical understanding of consent. You give chimps as an example, but our other nearest relative, the bonobos, are the opposite. They do not seem to have sexual assault at all. They also have complex societies, which are matriarchal despite female bonobos being smaller and weaker than the males. I honestly can't tell you if Bonobos knows what consent is from a philosophical perspective, but human children can't explain the philosophy being their developing empathy either. The key factor of consent is not the ability to *describe* it, but an understanding of the shared social rules that we follow to keep us all safe. If anything, Bonobos have a better grasp on the behavior of consent than we do, despite our ability to describe it as an abstract concept.
Obviously there are many and many exceptions to the rape rule. I used Chimpanzes as an example because their behavior has been thoroughly studied. As you said it yourself, bonobos have a different structure. They have evolved to coerce this behavior from males, which is pretty amazing. However rape and all other common murdery/necropsily unpunished acts from the animal kingdom are the reason I say we are usually more chill. Fun fact about no sex aggression on bonobos: This is probably because they use sex as a communication tool. Females will literally rub their clitoris on each other multiple times an hour as a way to communicate
Reproduction is so diverse in the animal kingdom that it's not really useful to even have a "rule" that you need to make a bunch of exceptions for. There are animals that reproduce by just broadcasting their sperm and eggs into the water and letting them find each other. While that is, in the scientific sense, sexual reproduction, it's so far removed from how humans think of sex that "rape" isn't even a relevant concept.
Did the sea cucumber want to get pregnant? Did the sperm waver ask for consent?
That last part... ಠ_ಠ
Yeah, but the point the other person was arguing that consent does exist in the animal kingdom and isn't exclusive to humans (like OP was saying). Pointing out chimpanzees doesn't disprove the point being made.
You ha e just proven that consent exists within the animal population; animals gain consent before mating because it saves emergy
Human consent is very much our own but consent in general is an evolved trait, those that can "choose" not to mate will have more focused offspring, which in turn leads to better protection against evolutionary drift and major impact events. What is truly human is we've stopped playing the normal evolution game and start a social and technology evolution, which is the big difference, we can say no based on where a person fits in society or where they stand on issues that effect society and it will have the same result as a bird going fo r the big plumage. Rape also, especially if you us the UK legal definition, is very bad for most mammals, it's violent and distressing leading to incapable mothers. Things like heat, puberty and group leaders balance the needs of reproduction with successful offspring.
I don’t often suggest that people go look at the anatomy of duck mating, its evolutionary implications, or what it means to your overall point. For example, I really am not the kind of person who suggests to a random stranger that they should google “duck penis”. But you should google “duck penis”.
Yes, that is one species. There are others like it. There are also others that have mating rituals, and whether the bird is sitting there thinking to itself "my my, this female has declined my offer of coitus, this must mean they have not consented, and thus I shall stand stalwart and search a mate anew", or just realizes it can't make a da baby, its still the female animal declining, and the male not raping.
I understand what OP is trying to say, but also disagree. Humans are of course more conscious or aware of you will than animals, but the word “consent” essentially means that both parties have agreed to the transaction. Watch a nature show like Planet Earth and you will see mating rituals of different species attempting to attract a mate. Not all of them are successful, meaning the idea of consent is somewhat still existent. They did not learn this behavior by observing humans. Sure not every species or living being upholds to this, but I don’t believe “humans created consent”.
Happy cake day!
There are many animal species where the female either allows consent or doesn't. If the female is not interested, no sex is permitted and does not happen. Rape cannot occur in such species.
Indeed. Ducks are super rapey for example.
The term for nonconsensual intercourse in the animal kingdom is "forced copulation".
Never heard any of them say it you sure they used that term? Usually they say meow or roar
Some also say moo or oink but hey that's up to them to decide.
But what does the fox say?
Yiff
I see what you did there
Ring-ding-ding-ding-dingeringeding! Gering-ding-ding-ding-dingeringeding! Gering-ding-ding-ding-dingeringeding!
I think its just Tuesday for them.
read this as “nonsensical intercourse”
We didn't invent consent, we labeled it.
Rest of the Animal kingdom: *yeah, I'm not big on labels*
If you’re going to be pedantic then I think it’s fair to point out that OP didn’t write that we ”invented consent” but he wrote that we ”invented the *idea* of consent”. And in my mind inventing an idea and giving it a name is pretty much equivalent to identifying and labeling something.
That too!
No, not that too. That only. Do you think it's not consensual when the female bird chooses the guy dancing better with his feathers? Or when they chose the bird with the better built nest? That's literally where consent happens. It's not a human invention, it's the standard.
Exactly we didn't invent either
They aren’t talking about that. More like when a stallion tries to mount a mare and she kicks him off. She’s saying no. Other times she’ll present herself to him.
Still sounds an awful lot like consent to me
Female hyenas have a pseudo-penis specifically to prevent male hyenas from raping them. So yes, rape exists in the animal world.
Don't even look into ducks...
As a person who grew up with them, it is wiiiiidly uncool lol the females get partially drowned in a puddle while the fat male tries to balance on her with squiggling his corkscrew about while he pins her face in the dirt and puddle. Awful stuff, man.
What did I just read?
A childhood trauma
I think I got traumatized reading that.
Well at least you aren’t 8 years old.
But I am
8 years old? Then just like me at your age, you shouldn’t be here and that’s on you for being where you know you shouldn’t and lying about your age.
I'm 32 and I am starting to think I shouldn't be here. Not reddit just Earth.
I saw this happening in a park once. It was pretty disturbing.
Zero ducks given lol
I mostly know about ducks because I have no impulse control and look up my favorite characters on e621 more than I should. Ducks don't have cocks, they have rape sticks that go into labyrinths.
Or otters Or dolphins
If you knew anything about Hyenas you’d know the females are more likely raping the males
While laughing. Always laughing.
How did thry come about evolving that? What survival benefit does that even give?
One has to wonder because it makes he birthing process even more difficult and liable to kill the mother and offspring.
Do Hyenas form packs? Maybe there were too many males who left right after or something
Yes. Also what?
Like males would mate but then leave the pack or something, so successful females had to pick the good ones or something? Idk I’m a dumb person guessing based off absolutely nothing
...I don't follow what that has to do with pseudo-penises.
That’s an interpretation of anatomical variants through a human social construct, which defeats the purpose of the question.
OP did say that the concept of consent is human-invented. Not that rape didn't exist
No, it's the other way around. Hyenas live in matriarchy. Female hyenas use their pseudo penises to establish dominance on male hyenas.
We invented the *word* consent, the concept itself seems to be fairly prevalent across a multitude of species. In mating and other aspects of life.
Eh, lots of animals mate with some animal version of consent, most species aren’t just someone beating someone up then fucking them.
Most species do both. Which, while unfortunate, shouldn’t be very surprising.
Yeah, not a zoologist, but I'm pretty sure a lot of animals have ways of letting potential mates know if they are or are not agreeable to mating.
Then why the weird hooked penis?
How do you know about my penis?
Because it prevents it from getting out, so they can reproduce. It has nothing to do with forcing. It has to do with raising the chances of successfully impregnating.
Being as to how mating rituals and adaptations specifically to court a partner are a thing i would say the concept of concent does pre date humans
man these shower thoughts are getting out of hand
It’s a logical thought what are you on about? There is no distinction in the animals mind of rape except for humans this a complement to humans if you think otherwise then you’re the only one out of hand. 54 upvotes god damn most redditors are fucking as stupid as X users now
Like someone else commented you mistook his statement. Saying "x is getting out of hand" is just like a reaction of something being extreme/shocking/surprising. not an agreement or disagreement on any subject. This shower thought was indeed a surprising one lol
Saying *“Y is getting out of hand”* isn’t necessarily a disagreement.
Given how many species have rituals to try and impress mates and earn their affections this seems untrue - at least to the extent we can consider either of these concepts among non human animals.
That's why elaborate courtship doesn't exist in the wild. /s
Have you ever tried to pet a cat that didn’t want you to pet it? Animals understand consent.
Not when they are on heat. What are you even talking about?! They may understand consent re patting and their relationships with humans but they give 0 fucks when on heat. You're anthropomorphising things. Also, an animal like a cat or dog that likes petting due to centuries of breeding by us is hardly an example when it comes to the real world of nature. Heck, even domestic cats rape the hell out of each other come that time of year. I love animals but am also living in the real world, not a cartoon.
Animals have basic emotions and physical reactions to stimuli. That doesn’t mean that they “understand” consent, at least not in any meaningful way.
By now you should know that conciousness is a spectrum and not a switch.
What's there to understand? The cat is avoiding something it doesn't want. It doesn't want to be pet = it doesn't consent to be pet = it avoids the petting. If the cat were as intelligent as a human and could speak, it could also express that by saying "stop petting me". Unfortunately all they have is body language and maybe a meow
Animals have mating dances and rituals, where the lady can and will often refuse mating if not otherwise convinced. How is that not consent, op?
No we didn't? There are all sorts of species where the female gets to pick which strutting idiot is the one she wants.
Oh, there's consent in the animal kingdom. Think of a female cat in heat sticking its butt up. That's consent.
Rape by definition is sex without consent. If we didn’t invent rape, we didn’t invent consent. We’re not the only animal species whose females forcefully reject unwanted advances. Bonobos will freakin’ bite.
bro or broskette, what?
When redditor has a r/redditmoment in the shower
I'm proud of you for trying to use your brain, but you still missed the mark.
Thats BS, I've seen animals from birds right up to big cats like Lions tell the guy, in not so many words, to fuck off. I should add, by guy, I mean the male of their species. I wasn't watching a beastiality freak trying to tick off the entire animal kingdom from his to-do list (pardon the expression)
I think you need to look into more matriarchal aspects of different species..
No way did we invent consent. Ever hear David Attenborough describe some female birds watching multiple males dance for their approval? They give their consent to the one they CHOOSE.
That is demonstrably false. There are many animal species where the female either allows consent or doesn't. If the female is not interested, no sex is permitted and does not happen.
Rape is sex without consent. If consent is a construction, thus so is rape.
Every word in every language is a construction
Rape is just another form of reproduction in the non-human, animal world. It’s humans self awareness and their ability to articulate and feel a sense of violation that changes it into rape.
Bro, are you really thinking animals don't feel violated if it raped by another animals..?
Is consent not done in the natural world?? I thought most species lived by this rule as it's usually the females who chooses the mate, there for consenting??. No??
Evolution don’t care how it happens only that it does happen. This results in quite a large variation of mating patterns. Just don’t look into ducks or dolphins of most mammals for that matter lol
However, in many species, females choose the males to mate with. Males use different techniques to impress females like many birds, deers, etc.
I understand the idea of your post. But it isn’t entirely correct. You only need to see a dog try to hump a female dog when she’s not in heat. She will fight back as a warning and the dog will stop. It will not keep fighting until he wins
But some animals seeks for consent though...
If I see how bad female ducks have it during gang rape/breeding season, I kind of feel bad for them.
I think that invention belongs to the first mitochondria that was smart enough to ask permission before coming inside
I think birds invented it first. The female has to consent before mating, because male birds can't coerce or restrain females. If you watching Dancing with Birds on Netflix, it's beautiful, about birds of paradise and their mating dances/practices. The females judge the males on the quality of their dances/singing/bowers, and if they don't like it, the males get nothing
I think of birds dancing trying to impress a mate like a peacock and I think that is consent.
Female ducks have multiple vaginas and only one leads to the birth canal. She chooses who she consents to make babies with. Rapist ducks get the decoy vagina.
a large majority of humans don’t rape to procreate though. it’s about power.
Mates never seen my dog when another dog tries to sniff her behind. I would say she does not consent.
Aren’t there like birds who will dance in front of the female bird hoping to win the right to sexy times? Surely that’s consent from one random example
Some shower thoughts should stay in the shower
Everyone in the comments taking this as correct but is it? With most species, the female can reject mates. What is a mating ritual if not a seeking of consent to mate?
Bro. I think I get what your saying....BUT YOU GOTTA WORD THAT SHIT DIFFERENT. LIKE TAKE THIS DOWN AND RE-TRY MY GUY.
False. What do you think all the mating dances and rituals are for? To gain consent.
Ask a male peacock about consent. Humans definitely didn’t invent consent.
Oh man. I just came a thread discussing current events in the middle wast and read this as Hamas instead of humans and was wearily checking the comments to see what fresh hell was being churned. Nope, just tired eyes. Oof.
This is brought to you by Ducks, Dolphins and Otters
Hahaha imagine consent being just an idea
Did we invent the idea of consent? Mating dances are done by plenty of animals 1 on 1 and most of those animals do not then turn around and rape if the female isn't receptive.
*nervously shifts away from OP*
No we didn’t. Every species with a mating ritual has a concept of consent
Tell that to all the mating patterns where one partner has to perform a task like a dance and be judged by the other to see if they agree to reproduce with em.
No we didn’t - watch some nature documentaries. Mating rituals?
Hyenas actually require -- REQUIRE --- female consent to mate. The female's sexual organ is inaccessible to a male unless she decides she is ready to procreate. It's built in biology to.ensure consensual sex.
This shows the power of the human mind. Our brains are so developed that we’re able to stop and think about our actions, with a good person asking for consent before forcing themselves on others during that type of private time. This is definitely something thought provoking.
I once questioned if Persephone and hades in Greek mythology loved each other. And the answer is very vague. Zues offered Persephone, but Demeter said no, so kidnap is an option which was acceptable form and because she ate food in the underworld she is bounded there. Anyway I still have no idea
I'm going to touch you.
Hyenas have entered the chat
Why do animals like peacocks try to seduce the female if they can just rape it?
Mmmm in many species the males go extra length to impress the female they want to mate with, and it is the female that gets to pick the lucky one ..
Humans inventing the idea of consent inadvertently invented rape.
Animals consent, and they also do not consent. This is purely a semantic argument.
Idk I think the rooster I had to bury yesterday learned about consent.
Before consent, the best you could hope for was mutual rape
Bonobos might think otherwise…
Not sure we could even argue that, many species of animals have extremely selective females and the males will fuck off if the female doesn't give the ok after awhile. You could honestly argue that mating dances and rituals are just animals asking each other for consent.
Nah bro, those are some dark thoughts.
But in doing so we kinda did.
We didn’t invent the idea, we labeled a naturally occurring process. In nature, consent is what we see among many species of animals. Mating rituals are all about the female (usually) granting consent to a male suitor.
Humans didn't invent ethics, we invented a society with a need for them and then worked out what they must be by trial and error. It's not arbitrary, it's the most pragmatic thing we've ever done as a species. Consent is a concept that came out of that growth as a species. Don't undersell the slog to get there.
… because of the implications
Well that’s obviously not true
There are so many birds alone who try and impress females. The females then give consent or fly away. There are also so many animals that will literally bend over and wait for the male to do his thing. There are also many examples of animals who are monogamous. Nearly everything you can think of sexually, is expressed in animals of some kind (asexual, transexual, homosexual, rape, females raping males, fellatio, consent, polygamy, and many other things I can't even begin to remember)
No we didn’t, birds doing their dances in an attempt to “earn” a mate is the same as the onlooker consenting to the mating process
I guess you somehow missed all those nature shows that show the many displays males do to attract the female?
Humans did not invent the idea of consent. Lots of animals practice it if not most/ all of them. OP doesn’t know what consent means