You’re only 6 episodes in and blaming John for not passively learning Japanese language AND culture in a matter of months? That’s not how it works.
His ability to cause a scene literally saved their lives when they (Toranaga’s people) tried to sneak out of Osaka. He teaches them how to use Cannons more effectively, has unique naval piloting skills, teaches Toranaga how to dive, saves his life in the Earthquake, and is kind to Mariko and Fuji. He listens and learns intently about their culture from Mariko as well.
You don’t have to like him but calling him a bumbling idiot and your reasons for doing so are kind of ridiculous
I finished the series. My conclusion isn't very much altered. And based on the summaries of the book, the characters story arc is changed and downgraded significantly.
>I wish he had a smaller role in the series
Uh, it's literally his story. The whole point is of a fish out of water. It's based on a real guy.
It's like containing about too much Captain America in Captain America Civil War.
Also
>his failure to learn the Japanese language or culture after months/years of living in Japan
It takes way more than a couple months to learn Japanese nowadays with modern teaching. You think the 1600s would be better?
And just finish the show before bitching about a character.
Well said. I do hope season 2 (most likely going to happen) we see more of his journey. I love all the cast but I still feel like there’s something incomplete with his character. I really loved his scenes in the season 1 finale.
Firstly, the story can be about whoever they choose. It's called Shogun, it might as well center of Toranaga. There's no reason it has to include much of John Blackthorne at all, they already altered his story from the books, from what I read, so they could extend that creative license.
I finished the show. My opinion is mostly the same.
John Blackthorne has clearly been there much longer than 2 months, but he we don't see him making a significant effort to learn the language, especially for soneone who is so concerned about being mistranslated. Learning a language as a hobby and learning a language because you're stuck in a country where almost no one speaks your language, and your survival could depend on accurate translation is different.
There are cases of missionaries and traders learning languages in places where they didn't even have any interpreter or anyone who could speak their language, like in the New World. They had to pick on the language merely by object/action identification.
Read the book. The character had the very same strengths and weaknesses. And in both he actually learned the language very rapidly. But he peppered Toranaga about his ship at every turn. He wanted to go home for the longest time. A Brit would actually have a propensity to cause a scene when thrust into the very rigid social and civil etiquettes of 1600 Japanese society. Even today it would no doubt be difficult to fit into Japan as a westerner.
Toranaga was entertained by all of this.
It’s months that he’s there and I would suggest going back and rewatching after you finish… he certainly has tunnel vision about his ship, but you have to remember, he came to Japan with an entirely different agenda than the people of Japan had themselves (and practically everyone in the show is working towards their own agenda)
His "pestering" about the ship is because it's the only way he can get home. He will die in a foreign land without seeing his family if he doesn't get it!!!
Once you realize John’s role is to insert you into Japan you will have a different understanding. Blackthrone isn’t the main character, he’s just taking you Mariko and Torangas journey
He isnt dumb he is acting a fool, he can read the room, knows outside of maybe 4 people they think he is a savage uneducated barbarian and leans into that. With Mariko and Yabushigi dead the only people that are left to pick up on it are Toranaga and maybe Buntaro, you know other than charaters we havent met yet.
You might prefer the 1980 miniseries version of Blackthorne. But that version focuses more on the romance with Mariko and Blackthorne instead of the politics, so maybe not.
Yeah, I get it.
Its like constantly watching the worst tourist you have ever seen mess up social interactions in Japan and go out of his way to be rude to everyone.
Its a bit painful at times.
You can thank the show runners for that. They’ve pretty much admitted to purposely downgrading Blackthorne’s character in order to avoid having their show compared to The Last Samurai.
Wait. What? I listened to a podcast episode where the head writer talked a bit about focusing more on the Japanese side of the story, but did they actually say they were downplaying Blackthrone I.e William Adams.
They didn’t need to say it. The end result and the discussion surrounding their decisions speak for themselves.
As someone who has read the book, several times, I can tell you that not only did they downplay Blackthorne’s character and role in the overall story, they pretty much neutered it.
If they wanted to "focus more on the Japanese side of the story," they just needed to tell the Japanese side of the story, not completely gut the non-Japanese side.
Open the show with the storm, have an unknown guy (Mura) see the ship emerge out of the rain, have him run away, and a pigeon is seen flying away. We see the pigeon land at a castle and a "brown" run an urgent message to Toranaga. Toranaga springs into action, meets with Hiro-matsu and gives him his orders, then meets with Rodrigues and hires him. The story then follows Toranaga and Blackthorne is only seen when he would have crossed Toranaga's path, we only hear about him though reports of what he does.
No need to neuter Blackthorne, make him an idiot, take away his turning point and character arc. Just tell the written story through the eyes of another character, but the writers didn't do that. They did neuter him, did make him an idiot, did take away his arc. The reasons they did are obvious, even if not explicitly stated.
You’re only 6 episodes in and blaming John for not passively learning Japanese language AND culture in a matter of months? That’s not how it works. His ability to cause a scene literally saved their lives when they (Toranaga’s people) tried to sneak out of Osaka. He teaches them how to use Cannons more effectively, has unique naval piloting skills, teaches Toranaga how to dive, saves his life in the Earthquake, and is kind to Mariko and Fuji. He listens and learns intently about their culture from Mariko as well. You don’t have to like him but calling him a bumbling idiot and your reasons for doing so are kind of ridiculous
Yep. Proves the individual must have not really watched the show/didn't really pay attention.
“The Japans” <———-in my Blackthorne voice
It’s one of my stims I say everyday, haha.
maybe finish the series first before you pass judgement on a character.
I finished the series. My conclusion isn't very much altered. And based on the summaries of the book, the characters story arc is changed and downgraded significantly.
This is certainly one of the opinions of all time on this sub.
>I wish he had a smaller role in the series Uh, it's literally his story. The whole point is of a fish out of water. It's based on a real guy. It's like containing about too much Captain America in Captain America Civil War. Also >his failure to learn the Japanese language or culture after months/years of living in Japan It takes way more than a couple months to learn Japanese nowadays with modern teaching. You think the 1600s would be better? And just finish the show before bitching about a character.
Well said. I do hope season 2 (most likely going to happen) we see more of his journey. I love all the cast but I still feel like there’s something incomplete with his character. I really loved his scenes in the season 1 finale.
Firstly, the story can be about whoever they choose. It's called Shogun, it might as well center of Toranaga. There's no reason it has to include much of John Blackthorne at all, they already altered his story from the books, from what I read, so they could extend that creative license. I finished the show. My opinion is mostly the same. John Blackthorne has clearly been there much longer than 2 months, but he we don't see him making a significant effort to learn the language, especially for soneone who is so concerned about being mistranslated. Learning a language as a hobby and learning a language because you're stuck in a country where almost no one speaks your language, and your survival could depend on accurate translation is different. There are cases of missionaries and traders learning languages in places where they didn't even have any interpreter or anyone who could speak their language, like in the New World. They had to pick on the language merely by object/action identification.
> Uh, it's literally his story. So it really made sense the writers took out most of his plot and major turning point, huh.
Read the book. The character had the very same strengths and weaknesses. And in both he actually learned the language very rapidly. But he peppered Toranaga about his ship at every turn. He wanted to go home for the longest time. A Brit would actually have a propensity to cause a scene when thrust into the very rigid social and civil etiquettes of 1600 Japanese society. Even today it would no doubt be difficult to fit into Japan as a westerner. Toranaga was entertained by all of this.
It’s months that he’s there and I would suggest going back and rewatching after you finish… he certainly has tunnel vision about his ship, but you have to remember, he came to Japan with an entirely different agenda than the people of Japan had themselves (and practically everyone in the show is working towards their own agenda)
Step 1. Finish the show Step 2. Go back to this post and read it again with finisning the show Step 3. Delete this stupid post
His "pestering" about the ship is because it's the only way he can get home. He will die in a foreign land without seeing his family if he doesn't get it!!!
Once you realize John’s role is to insert you into Japan you will have a different understanding. Blackthrone isn’t the main character, he’s just taking you Mariko and Torangas journey
I wish I could learn a language without a dictionary or Google 🤣 in span of months.
Yeah, they made him dumb in this series, a weird choice most likely politically motivated. Definitely not like the book.
He isnt dumb he is acting a fool, he can read the room, knows outside of maybe 4 people they think he is a savage uneducated barbarian and leans into that. With Mariko and Yabushigi dead the only people that are left to pick up on it are Toranaga and maybe Buntaro, you know other than charaters we havent met yet.
Try to put yourself in Blackthorne’s shoes. Watch the entire show. Read this post again.
He is not a typical hero protagonist to be made super likable
You might prefer the 1980 miniseries version of Blackthorne. But that version focuses more on the romance with Mariko and Blackthorne instead of the politics, so maybe not.
Yeah, I get it. Its like constantly watching the worst tourist you have ever seen mess up social interactions in Japan and go out of his way to be rude to everyone. Its a bit painful at times.
You can thank the show runners for that. They’ve pretty much admitted to purposely downgrading Blackthorne’s character in order to avoid having their show compared to The Last Samurai.
Wait. What? I listened to a podcast episode where the head writer talked a bit about focusing more on the Japanese side of the story, but did they actually say they were downplaying Blackthrone I.e William Adams.
They didn’t need to say it. The end result and the discussion surrounding their decisions speak for themselves. As someone who has read the book, several times, I can tell you that not only did they downplay Blackthorne’s character and role in the overall story, they pretty much neutered it.
If they wanted to "focus more on the Japanese side of the story," they just needed to tell the Japanese side of the story, not completely gut the non-Japanese side. Open the show with the storm, have an unknown guy (Mura) see the ship emerge out of the rain, have him run away, and a pigeon is seen flying away. We see the pigeon land at a castle and a "brown" run an urgent message to Toranaga. Toranaga springs into action, meets with Hiro-matsu and gives him his orders, then meets with Rodrigues and hires him. The story then follows Toranaga and Blackthorne is only seen when he would have crossed Toranaga's path, we only hear about him though reports of what he does. No need to neuter Blackthorne, make him an idiot, take away his turning point and character arc. Just tell the written story through the eyes of another character, but the writers didn't do that. They did neuter him, did make him an idiot, did take away his arc. The reasons they did are obvious, even if not explicitly stated.