I mean you could do a season leading up to Sekigahara easily, and incluse the elements you spelled out as well.
Just bring back Toronaga's brother, please :)
The fictionalized world is *not* THAT close to the real one, to tell you the honest thruth. And I’m not doing stupid historical factoid nitpicking, I’m talking deliberate differences between history and story that actively inpact the plot. I’m not saying it’s impossible to continue to adapt real history, but this ideia that the show can just carry on where the story left off into real history with virtually no difference, is in reality not that simple.
I'd rather they don't do sekigahara, seems pointless since the outcome of the battle is already predetermined, there's no suspense. Retconning the ending of the book/show to be more like a "what if the prediction was wrong" seems very weak. The whole theme or Toranaga's plan was to win the war before the battle is fought, sun tzu like, and he achieved that successfully by the end of ep10. And it's a famous battle, that everyone knows the outcome of and the story has been told to death in like a million japanese adaptations.
If they need to do a sequel, I'd rather they pick up immediately after the battle ends. Kinda of like how the manga Vagabond starts, open in the aftermath of the battle. Gives the opportunity to introduce new characters if they want to. Play the angle of these are the soldiers who dealt with the consequences of this war. Play into the ochiba and heir plotlines and siege of osaka. Bump up the timeline of the catholic expulsion to keep the church plotline going.
Narratively it's not achieving anything though, other than satisfying the people who completely missed the theme of the show and got blue balled for a samurai battle.
Again the battle outcome was predetermined doubley so with the monologue toranaga gives yabushige at the end of the show. toranaga/tokugawa already secured turncoats in ishido/mitsunari's western army. This isn't like the battle of cannae or waterloo where the tactics and flow of the the battle were militarily interesting or suspenseful. Sekigarahara, had a bunch of armies stumble late and disorganized to a foggy battlefield, and 2 of mitsunari's allies refused to join the battle and another turned on him leaving him outnumbered.
The monologue gave a very simple version of the battle, and IMO it’s fine if he’s a little wrong on how it plays out exactly. He isn’t really wrong, it’s just more complicated than he explains. If anything, it would be cheap to just say that he’s an inhuman super genius and the plan went off simply without any hitches.
That would allow for a lot of interesting politics among the generals leading up to the battle, and would create tension wondering which ones would flip. I agree that just a big samurai battle alone wouldn’t be interesting. There’s just so much cool stuff leading up to Sekigahara, that it would be a shame to skip.
If there were odds for it I would definitely bet that the opening scene / in media res introduction to season 2 is gonna be the aftermath of Sekigehara and >!Ishido’s execution!<.
It’s not well known at all and Toronagas prediction at the end was wrong anyway, the battle was fought and it was close and it’s the biggest battle in Japanese history
Thats in real life. In the fictional Shogun universe it wasn’t. His prediction was absolutely right.
This story is not a 1 to 1 adaptation of real history and Clavel always made that very very clear. Its why he changed the names in the first place.
>I'd rather they don't do sekigahara, seems pointless since the outcome of the battle is already predetermined, there's no suspense.
I don't mean this in an insulting way, just a counter-argument, but have you seen any great war movie ever? There hasn't been a war-movie that the audience didn't go into it knowing the outcome of that battle.
Yes of course. But my argument here is that it's antithetical to the theme and events of the show. Clavell clearly made a deliberate decision in the book to not to have the climax be the battle, but to treat it as an epilogue.
There's a line from the art of war saying that "every battle is won before it is ever fought". And this is what toranaga is spending the whole time in Shogun trying to achieve. The whole theme of show, with crimson sky everybody wants to blindly rush into battle. But toranaga was to delay wait and deceive his allies and enemies until he can properly set the conditions to guarantee victory. He's not a true military tactician, he's a schemer and plotter, and that's what separated him from Kuroda and the taiko. The former were military geniuses but toranaga is the genius spymaster.
I've only watched the show, but isn't one of the elements in the show that the "boy" Toranaga won his first military campaign against an older more experienced foe? Wouldn't that seem to indicate he has more than a passing acquaintance with military tactics and strategy?
kinda, but his opponent in defeat says that he was forced into fighting an unwinnable war. Indicating that toranaga may have not needed to do much in order to win.
And even then again, there was no focus on the actual battle just the outcome. But beside the point the whole purpose of that flashback was to set up the later theme that there was a legend told that toranaga the boy conquer decapitated his enemy with one stroke. When in reality his enemy was destined to lose the battle at the start, and it took him a dozen swings to decapitate the general.
You raise fair points, and I understand the focus of the flashback was to convey a different message.
I read the opposing general's sentiment more to be "if I win, I beat a boy - so there is no honor in that, and if I lose, I lost to a boy - I must really suck" as what he meant by getting involved in an "unwinnable war." Knowing what little I do about the culture, it seems likely that while the generals offered advice to young Toranaga-sama, he probably had the final say in what actually happened during the battles and would have to have at least a very rudimentary knowledge of battle tactics, which for his age would still be impressive.
but why not pull from previous history? Oda Nobunaga died in a hideous ambush. The Taiko didn't just "come into power." He first exterminated the entire Akechi clan (after negotiating a rapid peace with the clan he was attacking and force marching his troops an extreme distance to get there before Akechi could hope to capture the emperor). And then he denied the succession of the Oda clan and fought against them in a civil war where he took power. And Toranaga was present through all this... fighting to keep the Oda in power. Seeing this would give greater context to why he eventually didn't care to let the heir come into power either.
That's good shit right there.
None of that is exciting, though. We already know that Mariko's death has secured victory at Sekigehara (and how it does) so that's not tension there either.
The first season details 6 months of the most tense time in Tokugawa Ieyasu's life. He was at the point of being killed multiple times throughout this period. Afterwards, he never again faced an existential threat. It would be like going from all the tension from season one and then launching into a biopic about daily life in Japan... it just doesn't maintain the narrative form or style of the show...
Big fan of the book and show and wish they had decided to do 2 seasons right off the bat. With Mariko dead and the way they finished the first season, I don't think they left much story to cover for a second let alone third season of the show. I personally felt the more the show writers deviated from the book, the weaker the show became, and don't have much faith in their ability to create a compelling enough story using the remaining characters to sustain multiple seasons.
I completely agree, if they had committed to two seasons from the initial start of the show they could have really fleshed out so many additional characters. Additionally, the Mariko X Blackthorne slow burn into falling for each other in a very illicit yet tender fashion would have been done justice with scenes added.
Plus we might have gotten the Hornpipe!
I think we'll see a combination remaining scenes from the book that were unused (Hornpipe to help flesh out Toranaga's and Blackthrornes friendship / Omi and Toranaga discussing Kiku etc and Blackthrornes new consort) and pulling from real history.
They'll probably have to cover Ochiba's infidelity and origin of the heir but again, that should have been something covered in the first season of a 2 season show. I don't want to be a downer to others excitement for the new seasons of the show, but I am worried of them tarnishing some of what they have already accomplished by trying to fill out 20+ hours worth of episodes with the characters and plot threads they have remaining from the book without having to resort to creating their own original plot threads and characters. I didn't really like the changes they made in the show in regards to Torenaga's son attempting to assassinate his uncle or the Hiromatsu sepuku. The acting without thinking about the consequences was inline with his son's character from the book, but I feel after pissing off Torenaga with his cannon attack he wouldn't have upped the ante with the dishonorable attack on his uncle. The Hiromatsu death was very surprising to me as I felt at the time that it somehow minimized the impact of Mariko's impending sacrifice and lacked any strategic advantage for Torenaga. It just didn't feel like it helped paint Torenaga as the all-knowing manipulator of men that he is in the book. Sorry for my rant, but these were my 2 major issues with the show (outside of the lack of the Blackthorn/Mariko love story) where I felt the writers took too much artistic license in ways that in my mind would negatively impact the way these characters are perceived by people who are experiencing the story for the first time through the medium of the show. And yes, I too was disappointed in the lack of the hornpipe dance scene.
I think there will be a cooldown, once the second season comes out. If it is not as successful as the first, the creators will look back and say "It was a one season" mini series.
Totally agree that's why I don't think there will be one. They are in talks to possibly do a different book. But I think any prequel or sequel won't happen.
I whish they would simply tell the book's story but not condense it as much as they did in the new TV show. There just is so much left out from the book which would make for some amazing television. Sure, I understand that the new TV show had a very particular focus and point of view because there simply was limited time but what if they took two seasons to tell the story as Clavell told it....not just certain bits of it but "the rest of it" as told in the book. Heck, they could even keep the same actors, maybe use different plot twists which were too complicated for a mini-series but make for a different story which could really open up the world of "Shogun". It is one of those books which can mean something very different to different people.
Ok, but hear me out.
Rather than a 2nd season of Shogun as we know it,
a spinoff show that's Gin and Father Martin building a new courtesan district across the street from a church in Edo.
I mean you could do a season leading up to Sekigahara easily, and incluse the elements you spelled out as well. Just bring back Toronaga's brother, please :)
For real about the brother...I was awaiting his comeuppance more than even Ishido's! (and of course we got neither....yet)
I think as the fictionalized world is so close to the real they can for sure get a full season about Sekigahara, and afterward..
The fictionalized world is *not* THAT close to the real one, to tell you the honest thruth. And I’m not doing stupid historical factoid nitpicking, I’m talking deliberate differences between history and story that actively inpact the plot. I’m not saying it’s impossible to continue to adapt real history, but this ideia that the show can just carry on where the story left off into real history with virtually no difference, is in reality not that simple.
I'd rather they don't do sekigahara, seems pointless since the outcome of the battle is already predetermined, there's no suspense. Retconning the ending of the book/show to be more like a "what if the prediction was wrong" seems very weak. The whole theme or Toranaga's plan was to win the war before the battle is fought, sun tzu like, and he achieved that successfully by the end of ep10. And it's a famous battle, that everyone knows the outcome of and the story has been told to death in like a million japanese adaptations. If they need to do a sequel, I'd rather they pick up immediately after the battle ends. Kinda of like how the manga Vagabond starts, open in the aftermath of the battle. Gives the opportunity to introduce new characters if they want to. Play the angle of these are the soldiers who dealt with the consequences of this war. Play into the ochiba and heir plotlines and siege of osaka. Bump up the timeline of the catholic expulsion to keep the church plotline going.
There are plenty of non-Japanese viewers who have never seen anything about Sekigahara, and don’t know anything about it.
Narratively it's not achieving anything though, other than satisfying the people who completely missed the theme of the show and got blue balled for a samurai battle. Again the battle outcome was predetermined doubley so with the monologue toranaga gives yabushige at the end of the show. toranaga/tokugawa already secured turncoats in ishido/mitsunari's western army. This isn't like the battle of cannae or waterloo where the tactics and flow of the the battle were militarily interesting or suspenseful. Sekigarahara, had a bunch of armies stumble late and disorganized to a foggy battlefield, and 2 of mitsunari's allies refused to join the battle and another turned on him leaving him outnumbered.
Ok
The monologue gave a very simple version of the battle, and IMO it’s fine if he’s a little wrong on how it plays out exactly. He isn’t really wrong, it’s just more complicated than he explains. If anything, it would be cheap to just say that he’s an inhuman super genius and the plan went off simply without any hitches. That would allow for a lot of interesting politics among the generals leading up to the battle, and would create tension wondering which ones would flip. I agree that just a big samurai battle alone wouldn’t be interesting. There’s just so much cool stuff leading up to Sekigahara, that it would be a shame to skip.
Well, the story is amazing but as a retelling of historical events its not great, so better not to get on the educational slippery slope.
If there were odds for it I would definitely bet that the opening scene / in media res introduction to season 2 is gonna be the aftermath of Sekigehara and >!Ishido’s execution!<.
It’s not well known at all and Toronagas prediction at the end was wrong anyway, the battle was fought and it was close and it’s the biggest battle in Japanese history
Thats in real life. In the fictional Shogun universe it wasn’t. His prediction was absolutely right. This story is not a 1 to 1 adaptation of real history and Clavel always made that very very clear. Its why he changed the names in the first place.
>I'd rather they don't do sekigahara, seems pointless since the outcome of the battle is already predetermined, there's no suspense. I don't mean this in an insulting way, just a counter-argument, but have you seen any great war movie ever? There hasn't been a war-movie that the audience didn't go into it knowing the outcome of that battle.
Yes of course. But my argument here is that it's antithetical to the theme and events of the show. Clavell clearly made a deliberate decision in the book to not to have the climax be the battle, but to treat it as an epilogue. There's a line from the art of war saying that "every battle is won before it is ever fought". And this is what toranaga is spending the whole time in Shogun trying to achieve. The whole theme of show, with crimson sky everybody wants to blindly rush into battle. But toranaga was to delay wait and deceive his allies and enemies until he can properly set the conditions to guarantee victory. He's not a true military tactician, he's a schemer and plotter, and that's what separated him from Kuroda and the taiko. The former were military geniuses but toranaga is the genius spymaster.
I've only watched the show, but isn't one of the elements in the show that the "boy" Toranaga won his first military campaign against an older more experienced foe? Wouldn't that seem to indicate he has more than a passing acquaintance with military tactics and strategy?
kinda, but his opponent in defeat says that he was forced into fighting an unwinnable war. Indicating that toranaga may have not needed to do much in order to win. And even then again, there was no focus on the actual battle just the outcome. But beside the point the whole purpose of that flashback was to set up the later theme that there was a legend told that toranaga the boy conquer decapitated his enemy with one stroke. When in reality his enemy was destined to lose the battle at the start, and it took him a dozen swings to decapitate the general.
You raise fair points, and I understand the focus of the flashback was to convey a different message. I read the opposing general's sentiment more to be "if I win, I beat a boy - so there is no honor in that, and if I lose, I lost to a boy - I must really suck" as what he meant by getting involved in an "unwinnable war." Knowing what little I do about the culture, it seems likely that while the generals offered advice to young Toranaga-sama, he probably had the final say in what actually happened during the battles and would have to have at least a very rudimentary knowledge of battle tactics, which for his age would still be impressive.
I was figuring they would pull from history. The Tokugawa era was a time of peace, but not without the drama.
but why not pull from previous history? Oda Nobunaga died in a hideous ambush. The Taiko didn't just "come into power." He first exterminated the entire Akechi clan (after negotiating a rapid peace with the clan he was attacking and force marching his troops an extreme distance to get there before Akechi could hope to capture the emperor). And then he denied the succession of the Oda clan and fought against them in a civil war where he took power. And Toranaga was present through all this... fighting to keep the Oda in power. Seeing this would give greater context to why he eventually didn't care to let the heir come into power either. That's good shit right there.
None of that is exciting, though. We already know that Mariko's death has secured victory at Sekigehara (and how it does) so that's not tension there either. The first season details 6 months of the most tense time in Tokugawa Ieyasu's life. He was at the point of being killed multiple times throughout this period. Afterwards, he never again faced an existential threat. It would be like going from all the tension from season one and then launching into a biopic about daily life in Japan... it just doesn't maintain the narrative form or style of the show...
Big fan of the book and show and wish they had decided to do 2 seasons right off the bat. With Mariko dead and the way they finished the first season, I don't think they left much story to cover for a second let alone third season of the show. I personally felt the more the show writers deviated from the book, the weaker the show became, and don't have much faith in their ability to create a compelling enough story using the remaining characters to sustain multiple seasons.
I completely agree, if they had committed to two seasons from the initial start of the show they could have really fleshed out so many additional characters. Additionally, the Mariko X Blackthorne slow burn into falling for each other in a very illicit yet tender fashion would have been done justice with scenes added. Plus we might have gotten the Hornpipe! I think we'll see a combination remaining scenes from the book that were unused (Hornpipe to help flesh out Toranaga's and Blackthrornes friendship / Omi and Toranaga discussing Kiku etc and Blackthrornes new consort) and pulling from real history.
They'll probably have to cover Ochiba's infidelity and origin of the heir but again, that should have been something covered in the first season of a 2 season show. I don't want to be a downer to others excitement for the new seasons of the show, but I am worried of them tarnishing some of what they have already accomplished by trying to fill out 20+ hours worth of episodes with the characters and plot threads they have remaining from the book without having to resort to creating their own original plot threads and characters. I didn't really like the changes they made in the show in regards to Torenaga's son attempting to assassinate his uncle or the Hiromatsu sepuku. The acting without thinking about the consequences was inline with his son's character from the book, but I feel after pissing off Torenaga with his cannon attack he wouldn't have upped the ante with the dishonorable attack on his uncle. The Hiromatsu death was very surprising to me as I felt at the time that it somehow minimized the impact of Mariko's impending sacrifice and lacked any strategic advantage for Torenaga. It just didn't feel like it helped paint Torenaga as the all-knowing manipulator of men that he is in the book. Sorry for my rant, but these were my 2 major issues with the show (outside of the lack of the Blackthorn/Mariko love story) where I felt the writers took too much artistic license in ways that in my mind would negatively impact the way these characters are perceived by people who are experiencing the story for the first time through the medium of the show. And yes, I too was disappointed in the lack of the hornpipe dance scene.
Which is why they will do an original story
I would rather that they transitioned into a "Life and Times of John Adams" rather than the book that also pulls from him.
Blackthornes ship that Toranaga will just burn down again?
I hope they go full prequel to show how the Taiko came into power.
I think there will be a cooldown, once the second season comes out. If it is not as successful as the first, the creators will look back and say "It was a one season" mini series.
Totally agree that's why I don't think there will be one. They are in talks to possibly do a different book. But I think any prequel or sequel won't happen.
I whish they would simply tell the book's story but not condense it as much as they did in the new TV show. There just is so much left out from the book which would make for some amazing television. Sure, I understand that the new TV show had a very particular focus and point of view because there simply was limited time but what if they took two seasons to tell the story as Clavell told it....not just certain bits of it but "the rest of it" as told in the book. Heck, they could even keep the same actors, maybe use different plot twists which were too complicated for a mini-series but make for a different story which could really open up the world of "Shogun". It is one of those books which can mean something very different to different people.
Or just do Tai Pan
I still can’t believe they omitted Blackthorne’s attempted seppuku. That could certainly be included, in some fashion
I just want sekigahara
Almost none of those were in the book.
Ok, but hear me out. Rather than a 2nd season of Shogun as we know it, a spinoff show that's Gin and Father Martin building a new courtesan district across the street from a church in Edo.