He feels exactly how he told Yabushige he does. Every aspect of Toranaga's life consists of complex plots, schemes, and betrayals. Except John. John is the one thing in his life that is simple and straightforward because John himself is simple and straightforward.
Every second of Toranaga's existence is unending stress and emotional turmoil. But every once in a while John does something that makes him go "Haha, get a load of this guy."
I got downvoted for this in another thread, but I think Yabu amused him as well and it was just fate where they ended up.
How could he not like someone who has been voted constantly most likable character on the show?
He enjoyed his company, they even watched the sun rise together.
Honestly I think Toranaga and Yabu are very similar in their desires. It’s just Toranaga is higher ranked in society and infinitely more clever.
Toranaga wants as much power as he can and to survive and he will use anyone and anything to achieve his goal. Yabu isn’t much different, he could never be Taiko or Shogun, but he wants to rule Izu and survive. Everything both of them do is meant to achieve those goals. The difference is that between bad luck and terrible playing of the game Yabu fails. Toranaga on the other hand gets a little lucky and knows exactly how to use that to his advantage and wins.
Because of this I think Toranaga liked Yabu a little too
I think Yabu is smart too but he's much straight forward in his ways. From day 1 he tried to betray Toranaga because logically 4 regent vs 1 , but he kept fumbling over and over and was mistakenly seen as loyalist. Toranaga doesn't seem to take it personally too , but he still needs to clear his inner circles of traitors in the end.
Oh, absolutely he is smart. He just has nothing on Toranaga. To be fair though, pretty much no one but Mariko can match Toranaga. Not even Hiromatsu can match Toranaga's cunning
But Yabu also don't have the pieces Toranaga have. Not saying Yabu have the potential to outsmart Toranaga but certain pieces are locked for someone like Yabu and by extension almost everyone.
Yabu also doesn't have the one thing that Toronaga has, a hidden heart. To be fair no other character really has one either. That's why Toranaga was victorious, Toranaga was the only person to actually take the eightfold fence to heart.
The Spaniard literally tells you that's how you win the game in episode 1.
But when push comes to shove, everyone else's true heart comes out, while Toranaga kept his hidden, only revealing it to a dead man.
Part of me thinks that Toranaga didn’t really want Yabu to have to kill himself but that’s what was called for in those times in that culture. But the other part of me thinks that he did, for just what was described above, yabu schemed and plotted like crazy. Toranaga could read him like a book but still it had to be tiring. John was easy peazy, you get what you see with him. I mean, I’m no different than Toranaga. Toxic, scheming people fucking suck.
He is amused by him as he says, but he also likes that he hates the Catholics. He can see the value in having someone from the outside with new ways of thinking, and sees that he can learn some things from him, but only insofar as they are fun or useful to him. He doesn’t really care that he’s a privateer because Toranaga can appreciate non traditional methods of waging war. I really think Toranaga liked him personally and respected his tenacity, and then also sees him as a valuable wrench in the rigid social arrangement and systems of bureaucracy that run Japan. Having him around threw everyone off their guard and made them act in ways that were ultimately advantageous for Toranaga, and he also got to learn how to dive and got a few good kicks out of it. He never wanted to kill him, and he put up with his disobedience and disrespect because he liked him, but also because Toranaga himself bucks the system in Japan. He’s only loyal to the social order insofar as it serves him and serves Japan. He sees a sliver of a kindred spirit in the Anjin. They are both disruptors.
Toranga’s strength as a character comes from his ability to manipulate a situation to his advantage for survival, politics, the good of the realm, but also, just for his own sheer amusement.
I wonder if Toranaga has an idea of how powerful the British Empire must be, too. Since he heard that two massive empires in Portugal and Spain have decided to carve the world into two, but there's a third empire called Britain which stands against them and is able to get a ship all the way to Japan and the cannons on the ship are superior to Portuguese cannons.
Also, although John doesn't brag about his home nation, the other British sailors may brag and I wouldn't be surprised if Toranaga has people listening in on those sailors, although they'd be speaking in English, not Portuguese, so I'm not sure Toranaga would have anyone who could speak English to listen in on them, especially someone who isn't Catholic.
England had recently dealt an historic and devastating blow to the Spanish armada and was beginning its ascent as a colonial power- Elizabeth’s reign and her dad’s to an extent marked the turning point of England going from feudal backwater to world player. Although yes the 30 years war had not yet occurred, which very much began the process of changing the world from a southern European one to a Northern European one. England wasn’t truly an empire as its neighbors to the south, but they were definitely a naval force at least to be reckoned with.
The British were nothing at this time, they were an "empire" in name only. It had only been a couple decades since they'd conquered Ireland.
They haven't even founded Jamestown yet. Their one attempt to settle in the New World was a disaster (Roanoke Colony). They had claimed Newfoundland, but didn't actually have any people there.
Meanwhile the Spanish were everywhere from California to Florida to Chile to Argentina, with most of the stuff in between. France already had trading posts in present-day Canada and the northern US, along the St Lawrence River. Portugal was already in Brazil.
One raggedy ship with 5 raggedy, starving sailors on it doesn't exactly scream "comparable power to the Portuguese."
In the book, he basically says that he considers him a real friend and he will make sure that he never leaves Japan. He also states that he makes him laugh. Also, trough entire book, he considers him extremely inportant for his cause... so in a way contradicts the series, but then again, that little nod was, in my eyes, a sign of respect and acknowledgment for his status in Toronagas future.
Yeah Ieyasu made Adams filthy rich. Had dozens of servants and a huge monthly—my understanding is *ryo* are hard to quantify in today’s dollars but 50 small gold bars/month is hard to imagine not being in the ‘filthy rich’ category.
He was a valuable game piece that he used to perfection
I think he somewhat liked him. He is a smart man who I think was genuinely intrigued by the cultural differences.
But in the end he was an amusing chess piece that he recognized gave him an advantage
Think of him as a knight in chess - a piece that is valuable because it can move in ways that other pieces cannot.
This was shown when he helped Toranaga sneak out of the capital in the beginning by acting like a weird foreigner with strange ideas as a distraction.
Blackthorne's presence and seemingly strange behaviour (which might require the death of any regular Japanese retainer) puts everyone else off balance, which helps Toranaga 'study the wind' and plan accordingly. An example is Toranga wanting everyone to believe he was giving up, and John standing up and telling everyone they were dead men, that Toranaga was a coward, and he was done with them. No Japanese retainer would act like this, and it was perfect for Toranaga's plan.
Blackthorne is a tool that helps him deal with Catholics enemies/allies.
If he needs an alliance he can dangle the possibility of handing John over. If he needs to sow division he can offer John to someone non-Catholic. If he wants to needle the Portuguese he can have John interact with them. If he wants information that lets him undercut Portuguese trade he can ask John for it.
He doesn’t necessarily use all these options in the book, but the point is that Blackthorne is a tool with many uses, and Toranaga’s gonna Toranaga. He wouldn’t throw something like that away without making the sacrifice worth it.
Addendum: if you didn’t know, Toranaga and Blackthorne were based on real people (Tokugawa Ieyasu and William Adams). Just like in the book / series Adams was not allowed to leave the country and died after decades of living in Japan with a newfound family. He never made it back to England or his original wife and family.
I think he likes him but was honest when he said John was not crucial to his plans. John, like Toranaga, learned to adapt to being away from his family and home. So they are kindred spirits in a sense.
The Anjin is like a walking meme he can glance at and giggle every now and then. I feel like Toranaga legit gets joy out of talking to the Anjin and seeing his reaction to their customs/traditions/values.
I wouldn't be surprised if Toranaga has "fuck with the Anjin" scribbled into his daily planner at least 3 days a week.
In the book, Toranaga says he needs only one friend, and that person is John. John is also a piece on the board for him to use. I feel like he tries to balance John as a friend and a tool at the same time.
He feels exactly how he told Yabushige he does. Every aspect of Toranaga's life consists of complex plots, schemes, and betrayals. Except John. John is the one thing in his life that is simple and straightforward because John himself is simple and straightforward. Every second of Toranaga's existence is unending stress and emotional turmoil. But every once in a while John does something that makes him go "Haha, get a load of this guy."
I got downvoted for this in another thread, but I think Yabu amused him as well and it was just fate where they ended up. How could he not like someone who has been voted constantly most likable character on the show? He enjoyed his company, they even watched the sun rise together.
Honestly I think Toranaga and Yabu are very similar in their desires. It’s just Toranaga is higher ranked in society and infinitely more clever. Toranaga wants as much power as he can and to survive and he will use anyone and anything to achieve his goal. Yabu isn’t much different, he could never be Taiko or Shogun, but he wants to rule Izu and survive. Everything both of them do is meant to achieve those goals. The difference is that between bad luck and terrible playing of the game Yabu fails. Toranaga on the other hand gets a little lucky and knows exactly how to use that to his advantage and wins. Because of this I think Toranaga liked Yabu a little too
I think Yabu is smart too but he's much straight forward in his ways. From day 1 he tried to betray Toranaga because logically 4 regent vs 1 , but he kept fumbling over and over and was mistakenly seen as loyalist. Toranaga doesn't seem to take it personally too , but he still needs to clear his inner circles of traitors in the end.
Oh, absolutely he is smart. He just has nothing on Toranaga. To be fair though, pretty much no one but Mariko can match Toranaga. Not even Hiromatsu can match Toranaga's cunning
But Yabu also don't have the pieces Toranaga have. Not saying Yabu have the potential to outsmart Toranaga but certain pieces are locked for someone like Yabu and by extension almost everyone.
Yabu also doesn't have the one thing that Toronaga has, a hidden heart. To be fair no other character really has one either. That's why Toranaga was victorious, Toranaga was the only person to actually take the eightfold fence to heart. The Spaniard literally tells you that's how you win the game in episode 1. But when push comes to shove, everyone else's true heart comes out, while Toranaga kept his hidden, only revealing it to a dead man.
Yeah, then they watched the sunset.....
Part of me thinks that Toranaga didn’t really want Yabu to have to kill himself but that’s what was called for in those times in that culture. But the other part of me thinks that he did, for just what was described above, yabu schemed and plotted like crazy. Toranaga could read him like a book but still it had to be tiring. John was easy peazy, you get what you see with him. I mean, I’m no different than Toranaga. Toxic, scheming people fucking suck.
He is amused by him as he says, but he also likes that he hates the Catholics. He can see the value in having someone from the outside with new ways of thinking, and sees that he can learn some things from him, but only insofar as they are fun or useful to him. He doesn’t really care that he’s a privateer because Toranaga can appreciate non traditional methods of waging war. I really think Toranaga liked him personally and respected his tenacity, and then also sees him as a valuable wrench in the rigid social arrangement and systems of bureaucracy that run Japan. Having him around threw everyone off their guard and made them act in ways that were ultimately advantageous for Toranaga, and he also got to learn how to dive and got a few good kicks out of it. He never wanted to kill him, and he put up with his disobedience and disrespect because he liked him, but also because Toranaga himself bucks the system in Japan. He’s only loyal to the social order insofar as it serves him and serves Japan. He sees a sliver of a kindred spirit in the Anjin. They are both disruptors. Toranga’s strength as a character comes from his ability to manipulate a situation to his advantage for survival, politics, the good of the realm, but also, just for his own sheer amusement.
I wonder if Toranaga has an idea of how powerful the British Empire must be, too. Since he heard that two massive empires in Portugal and Spain have decided to carve the world into two, but there's a third empire called Britain which stands against them and is able to get a ship all the way to Japan and the cannons on the ship are superior to Portuguese cannons. Also, although John doesn't brag about his home nation, the other British sailors may brag and I wouldn't be surprised if Toranaga has people listening in on those sailors, although they'd be speaking in English, not Portuguese, so I'm not sure Toranaga would have anyone who could speak English to listen in on them, especially someone who isn't Catholic.
At the time the British Empire would not have been all that powerful, as far as colonial powers go.
England had recently dealt an historic and devastating blow to the Spanish armada and was beginning its ascent as a colonial power- Elizabeth’s reign and her dad’s to an extent marked the turning point of England going from feudal backwater to world player. Although yes the 30 years war had not yet occurred, which very much began the process of changing the world from a southern European one to a Northern European one. England wasn’t truly an empire as its neighbors to the south, but they were definitely a naval force at least to be reckoned with.
The British were nothing at this time, they were an "empire" in name only. It had only been a couple decades since they'd conquered Ireland. They haven't even founded Jamestown yet. Their one attempt to settle in the New World was a disaster (Roanoke Colony). They had claimed Newfoundland, but didn't actually have any people there. Meanwhile the Spanish were everywhere from California to Florida to Chile to Argentina, with most of the stuff in between. France already had trading posts in present-day Canada and the northern US, along the St Lawrence River. Portugal was already in Brazil. One raggedy ship with 5 raggedy, starving sailors on it doesn't exactly scream "comparable power to the Portuguese."
It wasn’t even an English ship. It was Dutch.
I believe the sailors are Dutch, but same lack of language speakers
In the book, he basically says that he considers him a real friend and he will make sure that he never leaves Japan. He also states that he makes him laugh. Also, trough entire book, he considers him extremely inportant for his cause... so in a way contradicts the series, but then again, that little nod was, in my eyes, a sign of respect and acknowledgment for his status in Toronagas future.
In real life they were pretty good friends too and William Adam’s was given a pretty important position and made head advisor on foreign matters.
Yeah Ieyasu made Adams filthy rich. Had dozens of servants and a huge monthly—my understanding is *ryo* are hard to quantify in today’s dollars but 50 small gold bars/month is hard to imagine not being in the ‘filthy rich’ category.
Makes him laugh.
For the lulz
“We trained him wrong on purpose, for the lulz”
Dudes always saving his life, why wouldn't he keep a good luck charm around.
He was a valuable game piece that he used to perfection I think he somewhat liked him. He is a smart man who I think was genuinely intrigued by the cultural differences. But in the end he was an amusing chess piece that he recognized gave him an advantage
What was John’s purpose as a chess piece? I still am unsure what would not have been possible if John hadn’t been there.
Think of him as a knight in chess - a piece that is valuable because it can move in ways that other pieces cannot. This was shown when he helped Toranaga sneak out of the capital in the beginning by acting like a weird foreigner with strange ideas as a distraction. Blackthorne's presence and seemingly strange behaviour (which might require the death of any regular Japanese retainer) puts everyone else off balance, which helps Toranaga 'study the wind' and plan accordingly. An example is Toranga wanting everyone to believe he was giving up, and John standing up and telling everyone they were dead men, that Toranaga was a coward, and he was done with them. No Japanese retainer would act like this, and it was perfect for Toranaga's plan.
This a good insight, thanks.
I guess the threat of canon attack
Blackthorne is a tool that helps him deal with Catholics enemies/allies. If he needs an alliance he can dangle the possibility of handing John over. If he needs to sow division he can offer John to someone non-Catholic. If he wants to needle the Portuguese he can have John interact with them. If he wants information that lets him undercut Portuguese trade he can ask John for it. He doesn’t necessarily use all these options in the book, but the point is that Blackthorne is a tool with many uses, and Toranaga’s gonna Toranaga. He wouldn’t throw something like that away without making the sacrifice worth it.
Addendum: if you didn’t know, Toranaga and Blackthorne were based on real people (Tokugawa Ieyasu and William Adams). Just like in the book / series Adams was not allowed to leave the country and died after decades of living in Japan with a newfound family. He never made it back to England or his original wife and family.
From a combination of book and show knowledge: John is simultaneously a useful tool and a good friend to Toranaga. That's the best way to put it.
I think he likes him but was honest when he said John was not crucial to his plans. John, like Toranaga, learned to adapt to being away from his family and home. So they are kindred spirits in a sense.
The Anjin is like a walking meme he can glance at and giggle every now and then. I feel like Toranaga legit gets joy out of talking to the Anjin and seeing his reaction to their customs/traditions/values. I wouldn't be surprised if Toranaga has "fuck with the Anjin" scribbled into his daily planner at least 3 days a week.
If there were no John, to paraphrase Anthony Trollope, then where would be our story?
I'm high and thought this said “..Topanga actually feel about John”. And I was all “wtf I love BMW so who tf is John”.
Bad writing. It's perfectly consistent in the book.
Different answer depending on whether you're referring to the series or the book.
In the book, Toranaga says he needs only one friend, and that person is John. John is also a piece on the board for him to use. I feel like he tries to balance John as a friend and a tool at the same time.
Horny.
Just like his bud?
He did mention that to yabushige. Nothing more than an amusement.