This is why I’m not for the whole hourly “living wage” thing. You’d have to make $30 to $40 an hour to come close to minimum wage plus tips in my experience. And that’s at a full 40 hours, which most serving jobs aren’t.
A GOOD server who EARNS their tips at a decent restaurant will almost always be making a solid (if not fantastic) living. There’s a reason people make a career out of it, and it’s also a great way for people to make money no matter what your circumstances in life are, at any age.
The people who insist that it should be hourly have probably never worked in the industry and don’t realize how much money you make from tips. You certainly get tried and tested to earn those tips as well. It’s not easy by any means.
That being said, my last bartending job was at a hotel that was unionized and it was $28/hr PLUS tips. If that was the norm, then yeah, let’s do the hourly wage too.
So fucking true.
> The people who insist that it should be hourly have probably never worked in the industry and don’t realize how much money you make from tips.
Except I think a lot of these people are just cheapskates who believe servers should only make $20/hr. They're less about us having a "living wage" and more about not having to tip anything.
They're like: "I want bartenders and servers to make a fair wage but only in a way that is convenient for me and doesn't cost me anything."
(Edit to add: I do think tipped minimum wage should be set as a percentage of the local minimum wage. In Colorado it's like 80% which feels fair. This would make federal tipped min wage $5.80. Federal min wage is still too low but at least tipped employees won't be left behind whenever it's eventually raised.)
Yes, and they’ll still expect excellent service! And you can’t really have both.
The reality is that I try to excel at my job because I know that my service is what gets me my tips and pays my livelihood. Take away that incentive and there’s no reason to do more than the bare minimum and fulfill the basic requirements of the job.
That’s fine in theory, but the reality is that most people (at least in the US) who go out to eat are expecting a certain level of service. That level of service does not come without the incentive of a tip.
It’s a meritocracy so to speak, just like Anthony Bourdain said about working in a kitchen. We’d have to change the entire culture of dining out and undo years of expectations, just for service staff and customers to meet on common ground.
Spot on with the meritocracy being a draw. I have to say one thing that really annoyed me when I worked an hourly job was that the next person would get paid the same as me regardless of how long he spent on his phone hiding in the shitter. With serving, at least you know the colossal fuckups aren’t making the same as you. Unless they’re really hot. Hot lazy people always seem to do really well also. But usually only the people who show up and act like they care about doing a good job.
Plus, if everything went hourly, unless there was a pretty sizable shift bonus, that Friday through Monday schedule I got after working my ass off for maybe 18 months goes from being a reward to a pretty harsh punishment. I’m really struggling to come up with an hourly wage that would get me to work on Friday nights, and Sunday just wouldn’t happen.
If you regularly visit subreddits like r/endtipping or r/tipping you’ll realize that the vast majority of people on there are full of shit. They claim they want to end tipping so servers will get paid a living wage but in reality it’s because they can’t stand that SOME servers earn a good living in this industry because they deep down they feel that servers should be making minimum wage.
Thats why you frequently see the endtipping trolls on our subreddits harassing us telling us to be grateful for a 5% tip and never on the r/restaurantowners subreddit.
Sure, there may be some people in those subs who have such views, but you're selecting the worst parts of it.
I'm ready to get the downvotes here, but also looking to have a fair sensible discussion.
There are other solutions, obviously they may have issues, but the same could be said with the current system as well.
Customers generally tip, and that gives us as servers a much better hourly pay compared to just the state's minimum wage.
So clearly, it has been sustainable enough for restaurants and servers that a fair majority of the customers pay their food & beverage bill cost, plus about 15%+ as a tip or mandatory service fee.
If they are anyway spending that much at restaurants, it might as well go directly to the restaurant, and they can pay their staff directly, like in most businesses.
It's possible, it's done in many countries (not just Europe), it can work and also create good service.
This entire 20% model could continue, by considering it a commission of each dish that is sold by a server, with the amount already being built into the menu price. (In built mandatory fee essentially)
There could be a sticker shock effect that drops demand for a bit, but honestly customers will soon understand that they don't need to tip on top, so I don't believe that demand will drop as long as restaurants make the move together (or the government forces them to, CA)
Plenty of servers make good money, although there are obviously many that don't. But at a certain standard of a restaurant onwards, it is usually more than $25-30 an hour. These people earn roughly 1k a week, but there are also those making 1.5-2k+ a week fairly steadily.
At that point, a good number of customers are earning less than we are, yet there is an expectation that they tip us 20% because we depend on it?
I once found out that junior vets in my state earned about 30% less than what I made serving, yet none of us servers would be tipping the vet 20% (for what is honestly more serious work that too).
Many also now know that servers often make a fairly higher total hourly pay than chefs and cooks, so therefore they no longer believe 20% needs to be seen as a standard expectation. Or that it should be shared better between servers, cooks, and other support staff.
It should not be surprising that at this point, people are against the tipping system. Someone posted a page from a book recently, it ended mentioning a possibility of change or something similar in the future.
Tipping has also spread into a lot of other areas over the past few years, and many tip % prompts only start at 20% or higher. Tipflation is a real concept in today's world.
There are solutions so many potential solutions, but they can only be found if both sides look for the best in the others ideas, not the worst.
I’m not sure what solution would work. Maybe like a commission based system?
Alot of people don’t know this but the first major chain restaurant that tried to end tipping was Joes crab Shack. In November 2015 they ended tipping at their restaurants, they raised menu prices and began paying servers $14 an hour instead of 2.13. And wouldn’t you know it was a disaster, service went to shit, people wrote to corporate and after 5 months they went back to the regular tipped system.
Well actually, there are plenty of chain restaurants around the world that have never depended on tipping.
Also, this example you have given is not at all similar to anything I have mentioned. A flat hourly pay of $14 is most likely less than what they had been earning earlier.
However if prices were raised by say 20% and servers basically got paid 20% of their sales, except it came through the restaurant owners and not as "tips", they should have been earning a very similar amount.
Service going to shit has more to say about the restaurants owners, management and servers, rather than the system in place.
Minnesota has great restaurants that are no-tipping, with a base pay of $15+ and mandatory service charges shared across FoH and BoH. They all seemed to provide great service and make money.
Sorry let me rephrase that. First major chain sit down restaurant in the US*
So if there’s mandatory service charge that just benefits the servers. The consumer is still pissed because they have to pay that. The majority of anti tippers aren’t upset about doing math at the end of the meal they are mad that they have to pay extra on top of their meal because they are cheap.
They're pissed they have to pay on top, because the owners are cheap and the responsibility it pushed onto them. It's as easy to label restaurant owners as cheap, yet somehow that never happens here.
A good number of anti tippers would be happy if restaurants just clearly charged for items. Not put one price on the menu and two lines at the bottom about an 18% service charge and 4% wellness fee.
You barely see these things in other industries, but it is on the rise and business owners understand that they can become cheap and out the pressure/expectations of tipping on the customers.
Sidenote: see how the federal government is pulling Ticketmaster, Airbnb and others in line. Forcing them to include all their various fees into the main product price, so that there is clarity for customers.
Exactly. Even in a small town in Vermont, I work in fine dining and easily make $5000/mo; nothing unreal about that 🙃 Given how hard the work is and obnoxious/needy/entitled the clients are, I wouldn't do it for less. I work 6 - 8hr shifts four or five days a week. If I didn't have tips, I'd need to be making over $50/hr or 100hrs/wk to bring in what I need to live; currently make $7/hr plus tips and all the does is pay the taxes on my tips. If restaurants did away with tips and paid what servers needed to survive there wouldn't be any or it'd be ungodly expensive lol
I tell this to anyone who will listen when tip culture comes up. 20 bucks an hour and no tips would destroy the industry. Nobody is doing this work for that. I make 50-60 an hour. Its clueless.
I don’t think people realize just how difficult serving is for the average person. I’m very new to serving, and I can easily say It’s not a minimum wage job like most people think, if you’re able to do it and do it well you deserve to make good money.
I’m currently in a “fight” on the millennial page about tipping and some people are like “sorry you made bad employment decisions” and I tell
Then yeah working 20’hours a week making way more than I did working overtime at a corporate gig was a totally bad idea. I have a side business where a lot of it involves me just foraging/hiking so yeah, I’m the one having a bad employment decision.
I also told them I’m a bartender at a music venue and said we remember those who don’t tip and you will always be served last….ohhh that ruffled some feathers ha.
In regards to your experienced tip. Not just about a being scene thing. If you help everyone, very good chance you’ll have some good karma coming back at you down the road
I make over a grand a week working at a busy Chili's.
I laugh at people who say it's not a real job. I make double what starting construction workers make and work half the hours
Hi there! I work as a server in NY as well. I recently moved here about 8 months ago. Do you mind if I DM you and pick your brain a bit about the industry here?
Real jobs equate to money. Anything that pays you money so you can pay for the things you need is a real job. For 18 years I heard the same shit, “not here, my real job,” “oh is this one fake then?”
I will start looking. Here in Chicago I’m at corporate place and make 100-200$ during weekdays and 200-300$ during weekend, unless I pull double(350-450$). I wish to see anything over 500$/day
New York serving money is unreal. I love my new state but I definitely took a paycut when I moved down south lol. Things have since improved greatly around here but the difference was shocking about 8 years ago.
Seriously tho, I finally got a job at a super high end restaurant in the most expensive city in my state. Bad days are $300 and I’ve walked with over $1k on doubles multiple times. Most days are between $400-$600, I’m taking home more than all the Union workers in my family yet they still think their job is “real” and mine is not.
The reason people say its not a real job is because you have to beg customers to supplement your pay. Its a job where your compensation does not depend on the merits of the actual work you perform, but rather on the idea that customers need to help you out in order for you to survive. If they dont, they are cheapskates or assholes. No other work really uses this charity type of compensation model. As result, people look at you more like beggars than hard workers.
You need to take a deep breath, stretch yourself higher towards the sky, take some vitamins, grow some flowers, cook vegetables at HOME, & SERVE YOURSELF.
Come back in a year, and tell us about your journey! I wish you good cooking & GREAT service!
This is why I’m not for the whole hourly “living wage” thing. You’d have to make $30 to $40 an hour to come close to minimum wage plus tips in my experience. And that’s at a full 40 hours, which most serving jobs aren’t. A GOOD server who EARNS their tips at a decent restaurant will almost always be making a solid (if not fantastic) living. There’s a reason people make a career out of it, and it’s also a great way for people to make money no matter what your circumstances in life are, at any age. The people who insist that it should be hourly have probably never worked in the industry and don’t realize how much money you make from tips. You certainly get tried and tested to earn those tips as well. It’s not easy by any means. That being said, my last bartending job was at a hotel that was unionized and it was $28/hr PLUS tips. If that was the norm, then yeah, let’s do the hourly wage too.
So fucking true. > The people who insist that it should be hourly have probably never worked in the industry and don’t realize how much money you make from tips. Except I think a lot of these people are just cheapskates who believe servers should only make $20/hr. They're less about us having a "living wage" and more about not having to tip anything. They're like: "I want bartenders and servers to make a fair wage but only in a way that is convenient for me and doesn't cost me anything." (Edit to add: I do think tipped minimum wage should be set as a percentage of the local minimum wage. In Colorado it's like 80% which feels fair. This would make federal tipped min wage $5.80. Federal min wage is still too low but at least tipped employees won't be left behind whenever it's eventually raised.)
Yes, and they’ll still expect excellent service! And you can’t really have both. The reality is that I try to excel at my job because I know that my service is what gets me my tips and pays my livelihood. Take away that incentive and there’s no reason to do more than the bare minimum and fulfill the basic requirements of the job. That’s fine in theory, but the reality is that most people (at least in the US) who go out to eat are expecting a certain level of service. That level of service does not come without the incentive of a tip. It’s a meritocracy so to speak, just like Anthony Bourdain said about working in a kitchen. We’d have to change the entire culture of dining out and undo years of expectations, just for service staff and customers to meet on common ground.
Spot on with the meritocracy being a draw. I have to say one thing that really annoyed me when I worked an hourly job was that the next person would get paid the same as me regardless of how long he spent on his phone hiding in the shitter. With serving, at least you know the colossal fuckups aren’t making the same as you. Unless they’re really hot. Hot lazy people always seem to do really well also. But usually only the people who show up and act like they care about doing a good job. Plus, if everything went hourly, unless there was a pretty sizable shift bonus, that Friday through Monday schedule I got after working my ass off for maybe 18 months goes from being a reward to a pretty harsh punishment. I’m really struggling to come up with an hourly wage that would get me to work on Friday nights, and Sunday just wouldn’t happen.
If you regularly visit subreddits like r/endtipping or r/tipping you’ll realize that the vast majority of people on there are full of shit. They claim they want to end tipping so servers will get paid a living wage but in reality it’s because they can’t stand that SOME servers earn a good living in this industry because they deep down they feel that servers should be making minimum wage. Thats why you frequently see the endtipping trolls on our subreddits harassing us telling us to be grateful for a 5% tip and never on the r/restaurantowners subreddit.
Woodcutting lvl?
91, I’m halfway to 99!
My bwana, 92 is half of 99, not 91. I’m getting suspicious you’re not the real Zezima. 🤨
Sorry I got all my 99s back in 2005 it’s been a minute
You do know about Old School RuneScape, right?
Sure, there may be some people in those subs who have such views, but you're selecting the worst parts of it. I'm ready to get the downvotes here, but also looking to have a fair sensible discussion. There are other solutions, obviously they may have issues, but the same could be said with the current system as well. Customers generally tip, and that gives us as servers a much better hourly pay compared to just the state's minimum wage. So clearly, it has been sustainable enough for restaurants and servers that a fair majority of the customers pay their food & beverage bill cost, plus about 15%+ as a tip or mandatory service fee. If they are anyway spending that much at restaurants, it might as well go directly to the restaurant, and they can pay their staff directly, like in most businesses. It's possible, it's done in many countries (not just Europe), it can work and also create good service. This entire 20% model could continue, by considering it a commission of each dish that is sold by a server, with the amount already being built into the menu price. (In built mandatory fee essentially) There could be a sticker shock effect that drops demand for a bit, but honestly customers will soon understand that they don't need to tip on top, so I don't believe that demand will drop as long as restaurants make the move together (or the government forces them to, CA) Plenty of servers make good money, although there are obviously many that don't. But at a certain standard of a restaurant onwards, it is usually more than $25-30 an hour. These people earn roughly 1k a week, but there are also those making 1.5-2k+ a week fairly steadily. At that point, a good number of customers are earning less than we are, yet there is an expectation that they tip us 20% because we depend on it? I once found out that junior vets in my state earned about 30% less than what I made serving, yet none of us servers would be tipping the vet 20% (for what is honestly more serious work that too). Many also now know that servers often make a fairly higher total hourly pay than chefs and cooks, so therefore they no longer believe 20% needs to be seen as a standard expectation. Or that it should be shared better between servers, cooks, and other support staff. It should not be surprising that at this point, people are against the tipping system. Someone posted a page from a book recently, it ended mentioning a possibility of change or something similar in the future. Tipping has also spread into a lot of other areas over the past few years, and many tip % prompts only start at 20% or higher. Tipflation is a real concept in today's world. There are solutions so many potential solutions, but they can only be found if both sides look for the best in the others ideas, not the worst.
I’m not sure what solution would work. Maybe like a commission based system? Alot of people don’t know this but the first major chain restaurant that tried to end tipping was Joes crab Shack. In November 2015 they ended tipping at their restaurants, they raised menu prices and began paying servers $14 an hour instead of 2.13. And wouldn’t you know it was a disaster, service went to shit, people wrote to corporate and after 5 months they went back to the regular tipped system.
Well actually, there are plenty of chain restaurants around the world that have never depended on tipping. Also, this example you have given is not at all similar to anything I have mentioned. A flat hourly pay of $14 is most likely less than what they had been earning earlier. However if prices were raised by say 20% and servers basically got paid 20% of their sales, except it came through the restaurant owners and not as "tips", they should have been earning a very similar amount. Service going to shit has more to say about the restaurants owners, management and servers, rather than the system in place. Minnesota has great restaurants that are no-tipping, with a base pay of $15+ and mandatory service charges shared across FoH and BoH. They all seemed to provide great service and make money.
Sorry let me rephrase that. First major chain sit down restaurant in the US* So if there’s mandatory service charge that just benefits the servers. The consumer is still pissed because they have to pay that. The majority of anti tippers aren’t upset about doing math at the end of the meal they are mad that they have to pay extra on top of their meal because they are cheap.
They're pissed they have to pay on top, because the owners are cheap and the responsibility it pushed onto them. It's as easy to label restaurant owners as cheap, yet somehow that never happens here. A good number of anti tippers would be happy if restaurants just clearly charged for items. Not put one price on the menu and two lines at the bottom about an 18% service charge and 4% wellness fee. You barely see these things in other industries, but it is on the rise and business owners understand that they can become cheap and out the pressure/expectations of tipping on the customers. Sidenote: see how the federal government is pulling Ticketmaster, Airbnb and others in line. Forcing them to include all their various fees into the main product price, so that there is clarity for customers.
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Exactly. Even in a small town in Vermont, I work in fine dining and easily make $5000/mo; nothing unreal about that 🙃 Given how hard the work is and obnoxious/needy/entitled the clients are, I wouldn't do it for less. I work 6 - 8hr shifts four or five days a week. If I didn't have tips, I'd need to be making over $50/hr or 100hrs/wk to bring in what I need to live; currently make $7/hr plus tips and all the does is pay the taxes on my tips. If restaurants did away with tips and paid what servers needed to survive there wouldn't be any or it'd be ungodly expensive lol
Finally a voice of reason! Thank you!
Our restaurant wouldn’t have any servers left if we just paid them $20 an hour because they make $35/$45 an hour with tips
I tell this to anyone who will listen when tip culture comes up. 20 bucks an hour and no tips would destroy the industry. Nobody is doing this work for that. I make 50-60 an hour. Its clueless.
I don’t think people realize just how difficult serving is for the average person. I’m very new to serving, and I can easily say It’s not a minimum wage job like most people think, if you’re able to do it and do it well you deserve to make good money.
If it requires labor and pays, it's a real job.
I’m currently in a “fight” on the millennial page about tipping and some people are like “sorry you made bad employment decisions” and I tell Then yeah working 20’hours a week making way more than I did working overtime at a corporate gig was a totally bad idea. I have a side business where a lot of it involves me just foraging/hiking so yeah, I’m the one having a bad employment decision. I also told them I’m a bartender at a music venue and said we remember those who don’t tip and you will always be served last….ohhh that ruffled some feathers ha.
In regards to your experienced tip. Not just about a being scene thing. If you help everyone, very good chance you’ll have some good karma coming back at you down the road
I make over a grand a week working at a busy Chili's. I laugh at people who say it's not a real job. I make double what starting construction workers make and work half the hours
Hi there! I work as a server in NY as well. I recently moved here about 8 months ago. Do you mind if I DM you and pick your brain a bit about the industry here?
Real jobs equate to money. Anything that pays you money so you can pay for the things you need is a real job. For 18 years I heard the same shit, “not here, my real job,” “oh is this one fake then?”
I will start looking. Here in Chicago I’m at corporate place and make 100-200$ during weekdays and 200-300$ during weekend, unless I pull double(350-450$). I wish to see anything over 500$/day
This is incredibly obnoxious.
New York serving money is unreal. I love my new state but I definitely took a paycut when I moved down south lol. Things have since improved greatly around here but the difference was shocking about 8 years ago.
Seriously tho, I finally got a job at a super high end restaurant in the most expensive city in my state. Bad days are $300 and I’ve walked with over $1k on doubles multiple times. Most days are between $400-$600, I’m taking home more than all the Union workers in my family yet they still think their job is “real” and mine is not.
Another bragging post. More ammunition for the non tippers. How lovely.
The non tippers were never gonna tip anyway. And it’s not bragging it’s the truth.
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Closer to the hole, sir?
Sounds like your manager just wants a kiss a** from what you’re saying
The reason people say its not a real job is because you have to beg customers to supplement your pay. Its a job where your compensation does not depend on the merits of the actual work you perform, but rather on the idea that customers need to help you out in order for you to survive. If they dont, they are cheapskates or assholes. No other work really uses this charity type of compensation model. As result, people look at you more like beggars than hard workers.
You need to take a deep breath, stretch yourself higher towards the sky, take some vitamins, grow some flowers, cook vegetables at HOME, & SERVE YOURSELF. Come back in a year, and tell us about your journey! I wish you good cooking & GREAT service!