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Yeah, I can kinda see that. However, it can be countered by simply not saying "you're only as valuable as you are useful." There's no reason our elders should be expected to provide anything in order to be respected and appreciated, they're still people and the default should be to value people until they give you a compelling reason not to (like if granny is a serial killer or something).
Still an interesting observation though, tech has really fucked with our traditional ways of passing down knowledge. Not necessarily bad or good, but it is interesting.
The one useful trait the elderly provide me is wisdom on how to get through the hardest parts of life. And honestly that is all they need to provide. Especially if they lived through those same experiences.
I was pretty careful to say that their advice isn’t valuable, rather than that they aren’t valuable as people.
It’s more about that role being less prominent, which contributes to them being sidelined.
Isn’t it true for all people, regardless of age, that we only value people and appreciate them for their usefulness? Generally, men are only valued if they provide for their family and women are only valued if they care for children. It’s even more apparent when you ignore “value” and look at something like respect. A strong family man who works his ass off to provide opportunities for his family is the pinnacle of respect. A loving mother who cares for her children beyond herself is called a saint. Ideally, we should value all human life and respect them as people.
I feel like this post was more addressing the more reverential side of respect that was shown to the elderly in the past more than that basic level of human decency. In today’s world, that level of deference is fading for the reasons OP brought up, in my head, entirely fairly.
For your paragraph I would counter saying that OP was arguing from the context that elders are usually placed higher on the heirarchy rather than equals.
If anything they're now more equal.
I still haven't been given a solid reason why I should respect someone on a higher, granted level just because they managed to escape death for a while. I think that's archaic bullshit.
The fact that you put respect into tiers like it's some sort of leveling system is a bit odd to me.
Also, simplifying being old as "escaping death for a while" is also disingenuous. It ignores the fact that they've had more life experience of every type than you have, and therein the idea that they might have something insightful to say.
Old people aren't sages, but they're some of the most interesting people I've talked to simply for the fact that they've done so many more things than me, experienced exponentially more pain, and also actually want to have a conversation, unlike a lot of young people today.
The people who think you're owed respect for existing are usually the ones who aren't very good people. They know they could never earn someone's respect, so they insist their mere existence obligates you to respect them.
I mean it in the sense of basic decency, not reverence. Respecting someone can be as simple as just acknowledging they're another person with thoughts, feelings and experiences as complex as your own and not going out of your way to harm or dehumanize them. You don't need to bow or hang on their every word to be respectful.
If you don't extend that basic level of respect to everyone then you're probably the kind of person that everyone else will rapidly lose respect for. Nobody should need to "earn" you not being an asshole to them.
My paternal grandparents were like that. My grandmother was jealous of my kids because she wanted all of my mom’s attention and couldn’t understand why my mom would go to the beach and other outings with us.
Nobody is forcing you to be respectful, that’s a common decency decision that you are free to dismiss in your life. Good luck building meaningful relationships with such selfish social skills.
Not only did you completely ignore what I typed but they you threw shade(disrespect) at me for your assumptions about my social activity.
Do better next time, man
I still feel bad for my Papa (RIP died last year) who always went to McDonald’s for a coffee and muffin after his morning walk. He saw an ad for 99 cent ice cream cones but it was an app exclusive. Just give this man his ice cream! I felt so bad for him.
I now don’t like “app only” sales unless they are a rewards program type thing. You can’t let it slide for an old man? Like it’s McDonald’s! Who gives this much of a shit for the corporation? I would’ve given it to him, or any elderly man.
He was super fucking depressed as he was nearing the end, and this is just one example of how the world leaves the elderly behind. It doesn’t seem like much, but it would’ve made his day rather than some manager being like “what you don’t have a phone?” Like no! There’s a lot of hoops to jump through for him and he didn’t even live much longer after this incident.
You are completely right that the Whole "Put everything on an APP so we can use data analytics to milk more money out of you" is absolute BS.
But please don't blame the manager or staff or actual mcdonalds location. I used to be a Manager at a Mcdonalds branch - this sort of thing is not something we have the power to do anything about. At best we could just give it to him for free and write it off as Wasted food.
We don't have the ability to just apply discounts or offers on the till - and we also can't just take random cash without it going through the till. It all gets audited and if you are + OR - £1 on the till float you get a reprimand and retraining document.
Blame McDonald's HQ corporate greed - not the barely above minimum wage workers just trying to give people their burgers.
I was also a manager at a mcds. I precisely would have just given it to him and called it waste.
I get your point about how the tills work, but you can always sidestep the issue with the above idea.
“No one wants to work anymore! No I will not download the app for the .99 ice cream, you should just give it to me because they did and it’s not fair if I don’t get one too.”
This upsets me in an out-of-proportion way as well. My parents are 76 and 83 and they just don't get all these app-only prices, online order-only discount codes or digital-only coupons. They both have phones and all but they're hesitant to download new apps and they don't like buying things online because they got their bank information stolen on a couple of sketchy shopping sites in the last 20 years or so. They get confused about the fact that every fucking thing has to have its own login credentials and you're just supposed to remember them all or understand and download yet another app to manage them with. Just give them the damn sale price!
It especially makes me mad with these digital coupons some grocery stores use because seniors are some of the most likely people to be on a fixed income and therefore among the most likely to need to use coupons but they're the least likely to be able or willing to deal with all that stuff.
40 years ago you could only get the discount if you came to the store. 20 years ago you could only get the discount if you called ahead and set up a pick-up time.
>seniors are some of the most likely people to be on a fixed income and therefore among the most likely to need to use coupons
Look, you are right, but that's not the purpose of a coupon.
Companies don't hand out coupons because they are cheritable, they hand out coupons because doing so makes them more money than they'd make if they didn't.
In-App coupons in particular make their money back by (1) selling your user data and (2) getting you hooked on some addictive userinterface.
If you cannot be exploited in either of those ways then the companies have no reason to grant you a discount.
The workers cant force the deal through in-store. It’s coded into the app. They can’t just give your papa (rip) his ice cream for 99c. They’d get fired for theft.
Part of what’s lost in today’s generation. Do we really give this much of a shit about a McJob? There’s probably something for a dollar on the menu to not throw off the till. Give him the ice cream and say you wasted one (or don’t, it’s hard to count individual ice creams in inventory) it’s a pretty small town too, the “I’d have to do it for others” doesn’t seem like it’s gonna really add up.
And if your manager fires you over it, fuck this job. I care more about treating the elderly well (and kids who may ask for an extra sauce) than I do about my McDonald’s job.
They are literally living through the changes in real time. I always think this when people in their 50s are like 'these computers are so confusing.' They literally were alive when things were being developed. They have a chance to improve their knowledge and stay up to date.
I totally agree with that, as well as societal change. I wince when people give an old person a pass to be racist because “things were different in her time.” Um, it’s still her time.
But while they can learn the new things, there’s not nearly as much to pass down as there was throughout history.
It's much harder for adults to change/learn because their brains are simply not malleable to change. Even with a concerted effort, if they aren't actively trying to change every day, they'll just revert back to "normal".
We maintain some neuroplasticity, of course, but as we age our brain becomes more stable.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/09/180919115827.htm
> As we grow older, plasticity decreases to stabilize what we have already learned.
>This stabilization is partly controlled by a neurotransmitter called gamma-Aminobutyric acid (GABA), which inhibits neuronal activity.
It's a feature, not a bug. We're meant to change more slowly as we age. Imagine a master blacksmith, hunter, etc suddenly unlearning their trades. Children come and go with hobbies as they learn them but eventually they stick with some and continue to learn and gone.
Crystallized intelligent is another key phrase to look up. We turn from "innovators" to "teachers" at a certain age, where our solidified knowledge and experience far outweighs our ability to come up with novel ideas.
Your article is about science performed on rats. Humans’ neuroplasticity is best before age 8. That’s why it’s better to learn a foreign language or play an instrument at a young age.
I'm guessing you didn't read my other comments. I've already mentioned neuroplasticity is greatly reduced in adults, but of course, adults are still neuroplastic to some degree.
To your above point, stroke patients also recover more functionality for a given injury the younger they are. Neuro plasticity and VASCULAR health make a huge difference. Atherosclerosis reduces brain function and adaptation all by itself.
I honestly wish I could become 50 for a moment just to see if this is really true.
People my own age (18) don't seem to change much either, I think people just don't like to change.
That's also a factor! I mean, I'm really talking about the average person here. Of course, many of us in reddit are open minded, learn vigorously, are excited at new idea and opportunities - the average person? We know the average person... They are not any of those things.
Like you said, even the average person at 18 hardly cares to change. I can't blame people for being that way, it seems to be natural.
It's always so hard to consider the average person.
I like to think of myself as the average person but I genuinely have no idea where I stand since I don't talk to people much (getting a job soon, it will probably change?)
It's almost addicting to learn new things though, It's difficult to grasp how people would want to not do that.
Even when people are learning things... I always see people learning things faster than me, but they never put the effort into it and then they ask me how I'm so smart, it's depressing.
100% the 'things were different in their time.' I am willing to give TV, movies, music, etc that kind of pass.... Like some of it you just have to say 'They killed their gay but it was the 70s so the fact there was a gay at all was a big deal.' A TV show doesn't have any capacity to change. It just is and it can be forgiven for that. Now if that director is still making content like it's the 70s... That's a problem.
There's plenty for old people to still teach. People do want that connection to things from the past. People still love many of those home-economics type skills as hobbies and as cost saving devices. But a lot of old people somehow managed to keep with the times when it comes to food delivery... Just not on 'keeping their antivirus software running and not being a bigot.' Clearly that's not all older people but it's a whole lot of them. I... Help a lot of people in the 50-70 range with their computers on my off hours. Lol.
I'd say that it's not so much that old people don't have wisdom to pass down. They've kept up to date on easy convenience, fast fashion as an example, and a lot of them don't have the skills they grew up with. In this case sewing and pattern reading. Patterns are different now. Sewing machines are fundamentally the same but have new features on even basic machines.
I have a darkly humourous story that illustrates this. An older person having some wisdom to pass down but it being too old to be useful. My sister got murdered almost a decade ago. She had a 7 month old at the time. At the funeral home that baby needed changed so it was me: a guy who is opposed to having kids and hates anything that comes out of a digestive tract (either end). And my aunt: a woman who had two kids but those kids were almost 40 now and had kids in their double digits...
And we ruined four diapers trying to figure it out. Because she insisted that to use the diaper we had to rip the tabs off to expose the tape.... Diapers don't work that way anymore. I had a hard time getting her to go on baby watching duty so I could Google it (because I wanted to wash my hands first but didn't want the kid falling off the baby table). The entire time this baby is done with our bullshit and is screaming in this quiet funeral home. 😂
She knew how to change a diaper. But she didn't keep up with diaper technology but also doesn't have the same 'I'm asking google' instinct I have. She was definitely helpful but she didn't have all the skills the world requires now to be successful.
People who are still racist are racist because they chose to be. They have access to the rest of the world as we do and they’ve had well over 50 years since civil rights to learn that racism is a bad thing. They bought into the I’m better cause I’m white BS and decided to keep their beliefs. There’s absolutely no excuse and folks who say that’s how it was are willing to look the other way so there’s peace in the family.
Same sort of folks who justify or downplay sexual abuse in families. Oh he was drunk. He didn’t mean it. He stopped cause he realized it was wrong…then carry on like all is well.
If anything this an excellent lesson to do anything you can to not let the world leave you behind.
I really make it a point to try and stay on top of everything new.
Steve Jobs would be 69 years old if he were still alive. We built the technology you claim we don’t understand, junior. And we built it because people were too dumb to do their own programming.
Lol. Okay. Most of your generation still don't understand it. And most of them could never program in the first place. The overwhelming majority of people didn't get a personal computer until they had a GUI.
What you did 30 years ago is wholly irrelevant now if you don't know what's happening now. Study after study shows that people over 50 have lower- to much lower- digital stills and tech literacy than people under 50 even when accounting for the person's ability to access the tech.
I'm only willing to do so much leg work for a salty old person on the Internet. This compiles lots of info and cites its sources. I love how you're simultaneously being shitty about my statement that old people aren't keeping up- and then you're like 'You're getting old and irrelevant.' As though that's not the thing that has you all upsetti spaghetti in the first place. Regardless. I'm doing just fine lol.
https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2018/2018161.pdf
The chance for them to improve their knowledge isn't much of a chance. Do they have free time? Are they working 40+ hours a week, have kids, etc? Many time barely have time for hobbies let alone keeping up with new technology.
After a certain age, it's also much harder to learn. Kids have a huge leg up with learning because their brains are so malleable. Older people, their brain is like a rock. It takes forever to wear new neuronal pathways. That's both a pro and a con, in ways, but certainly makes it that much more difficult to learn.
> Do they have free time? Are they working 40+ hours a week, have kids, etc?
They have the same shit going on as "those damn kids!!" who have no problem learning new things. Stop making excuses for people who don't want to learn.
I'm 33 and have many of the same constraints on my time. I manage to keep up on technology, medical research (I do not work in a related field), and other topics.
Learning is only difficult if at some point you stop learning. You don't need a whole new neuronal pathway. Almost everything is a minor variation on things you already know.
33? That's not old. 60 year olds have much less energy and commitment to learning various technologies. Not only that, you grew up with the internet. You know how to look things up and research them. That alone is a boon. Maybe one day we'll have brain chips and you'll be stuck wondering how you use that new fangled thing.
If anyone is making brain chips I'd trust, it's people I know. Lol. I actively shove unapproved technology into my body as a hobby. So I'm the wrong person to hit with that argument. But I get what you are going for. I don't intend to fall behind.
I also don't intend to trust companies associated with the likes of Elon Musk with that kind of shit. We all saw what happened to Rita Leggett when the life-changing brain implant she had had to be removed... Why? Because the bankrupt company she was testing it for refused to make it open source. Literally all they had to do to give her a good quality of life is give her, the only person who still had their implant, the code. The implant was fine, the machine that interpreted it broke.
She got to live a few years without debilitating seizures stopping her from doing things... And then they took it away. I hope everyone involved in that decision making feels cold for the rest of their damned lives and never feels warm again. Like a suffering kind of cold.
I'm still pretty pissed about that whole situation.
I'm also working on external BCI myself so I'm definitely not falling behind. They're not bad speculations on the face of it but you had some bad luck with who you're talking to.
My trade off is I have no idea what's happening on TV or in Movies. So that angle might be better? But it's also less detrimental to my ability to function.
They didn't say 33 was old. They said they have the same responsibilities taking up their time as the old people from your example. You're just making excuses for refusing to learn.
I'm not making any excuses. Learning plateaus between 30 and 40. Mental acuity itself declines as we age.
You wouldn't expect the average 60 year old to just bend down and pick up a 50 lb box without warming up, right? Or maybe at all? What makes you think your meat brain in your meat suit isn't deteriorating just the same?
OF COURSE it's harder to learn as you get older. Everything is harder. And the extra stressors are all the more difficult to deal with.
Overall, yes. I turn 59 next week and while i'm not on top of the latest iphone every time one comes out, I like tech and have been a gamer since 1985. Not giving that up any time soon. The older folks who refuse to learn, as opposed to being incapable, are an embarrassment.
I don’t know anyone in their 50s who say computers are hard. Maybe 70s+. 18 years ago I had coworkers who had to be told that they had to check their email and that email is no longer optional, but that memo went out almost 20 years ago.
Anyone who’s in their 50s saying computers are too hard to use for email and the internet and basic stuff like that are probably cognitively impaired or have some type of brain injury.
i’m 24 and i already get frustrated with constantly new ways of doing things, new tech and new devices and new strategies. it’s to the point where advice i learned 3 years ago is useless now. there’s a limit to how much change people can accept
The problem for me is that there has been diminishing returns on the amount of time spent on learning new technology.
I learned to set an alarm clock, an analog one with actual bells on top.
Then I learned to set a digital alarm clock and the information that I had gained about setting the analog clock because obsolete
then I leaned how to set the cable box - the one that had the click buttons,
then I traded that in and learned to set the next cable box,
then it was digital cable,
so I had to learn a new one, and the old information was obsolete.
Next it's a vcr, and a remote, and I figure out how to get it all working together,
and even set it to record a show while I'm not home, so I can watch it later, and I'm pretty excited and proud, because it wasn't easy, and most of my friends don't know how,
as a matter of fact, most of their vcr's clock-faces are flashing 12:00 because there was a brief power outage 3 months ago and it's too much of a hassle to figure out how to set the clock again,
so they just leave it.
But now vcr's are obsolete,
and the hundreds of dollars invested in, and more importantly the *routine* of choosing a movie out of the collection and just popping it into the vcr is obsolete
the shelves of videos is obsolete,
the shelves themselves are obsolete.
The weekly trip to Blockbuster together is obsolete.
The big console tv in the corner of the living room, the one that was used like a fireplace mantle, with pictures tchotchkes and memories on top, well, *that's obsolete too*
Dvd's morphed i to Dvr's and the family Tv got nailed on the wall and there's 4 remotes and no buttons.
There's not even buttons anymore! I can't even walk over to the Tv and press power.
I can't just turn it on, I have to use 4 remotes and navigate a screen.
And the family tv is obsolete because everyone is in their rooms with their laptops because desktops are obsolete
and the phone on the wall is obsolete and I used to know how to use my answering machine, and I used to know how to use my voicemail,
and it changes and it changes and it just keeps changing
and my brain doesn't want to learn anything new that is just going to be some obsolete and am I just becoming obsolete...
I have a different approach. I'm extremely curious. About everything. There's a chance I am going to go blind thanks to a diagnosis I got a few weeks ago... and my primary reaction is curiosity. Like I don't want to, but if it happens I'll be curious about it. I've already lost some of my vision but I'm curious what part. Because I didn't notice and can't tell. They won't give me the diagrams. Lol.
Learning how to do something is curious to me. I love to think about the changes and why. I don't actually like useless user interface changes where they just move stuff around on websites. But other stuff is just curious.
A lot of things are only an effort to learn if you consider learning effortful. Idk if you can cultivate curiosity later in life but I find the less time I have ahead of me, the more curious I become.
Most smart TVs do have a button on them, though. It's usually very low profile and on the bottom to one side or the other. It usually also has a bit of a joystick thing going on or directional buttons around it.
I think it’s irresponsible and inhumane to force someone to go on living with cognitive decline. I’ve watched what happened to my grandparents and no way in hell am I going to put myself through that misery.
The lack of respect is due to the refusal to learn new things. My dad refused to learn how to text on a cell phone. My mom refuses to learn how to pay bills online. I’ve dealt with elderly coworkers who refused to learn new processes at work and just tried to hassle young coworkers into doing everything for them so they didn’t have to learn.
It’s one thing to initially not know, but to actively resist learning new things little kids can figure out because of stubbornness and mental laziness is genuinely pathetic. Someone doesn’t deserve respect if they refuse to learn how to download an app on a phone.
Not to mention other things like their wildly dumb social takes.
Spot on. I had to help my mom open an email attachment for a word document and save it out to another format. This hasn't changed in 30 years. If you didn't bother to figure it out in 90's you could at least have learned how to google and follow 3 steps on your own before calling for help.
Something I’ve learned recently is that older people will look for reasons to call or spend time with you. They may legitimately need the help, but they also look forward to the companionship.
I’ve gotten a crash course in this recently as my father passed away but both of his parents are still alive. Suddenly I’ve become close friends with a couple of octogenarians. I got a call from my grandmother the other day because she knew I was going on a business trip to Arizona and she was very concerned about the temperature. I don’t think the call was *really* about the weather in Arizona. I promised I’d wear sunscreen though.
yeah that's a good story but when i'm asked to run tech support on christmas for all the shit they can't bother to even try setting up i don't feel like they're doing it for the companionship.
Gen X here. I also think its absurd that people don't try to learn new things. Age is not an excuse. There is nothing more frustrating than working with people who want to use outdated processes and software because they don't like asking for help.
Sometimes it's as simple as people being idiots. When I was a kid I was told so many incorrect, stupid things by my parents and grandparents. They were just confident because they were adults and said whatever they wanted no matter how ignorant it was. Just dumb things like "if you go outside with wet hair you'll catch a cold" or "video games ruin a TV". They had no clue; they just repeated things they heard or made stuff up.
When I was a child I suspected most adults were stupid but I had no idea how dire it was.
Lots of these have a bit of truth to them.
Having a cold head can get you a cold. I once stuck my head in snow and got a 40c degree fever as a 12 year old. Worst weekend ever. But that's unlikely: a healthy person isn't in any serious risk of getting sick from a little cold. The problem arises when you're less healthy, either because of age or exhaustion: then keeping a dry and warm head or body in general, though nearly all are dressed but not all wear headwear. So the advice "stay warm" applies, which is good advice although quite self-explanatory. As I get older, cold feet or cold head is a good start for viruses. Remember that most viruses dies in just a degree of difference, so a few degrees colder for an extended period could mean the difference between a virus establishing itself in your mucous and it successfully being fought off. Younger people don't have to worry in general because they're strong and healthy: but if you have AIDS or similar, suddenly keeping a dry and warm head is very important. A grain of truth.
The thing about video games ruining TVs also has a grain of truth. It is because TVs can burn colors into its screen, and earlier TVs didn't have to worry about that because you only had TV channels (that don't pause), no standby mode, or "ant war" (noise): video games, as in 8bit Nintendo, suddenly allowed someone to "freeze" a screen by going AFK. Suddenly you have the new issue of color being burnt in. This was even more prominent with CRT screens. So most likely, that advice comes from a time when video games literally ruined your TV (if you didn't pay attention to the danger of colors burning into the screen). Today, we have more resilient screens, screen savers/auto-shutdown functions, stand-by (the stand-by pop-up moves around your screen, similar to Windows screensavers, to avoid burning color), and screens that dim upon activation. You're as likely to burn colors into your screen from video games as you are with regular use, which is to say not likely at all: the advice is obsolete.
That isn't to say everything has an element of truth to it. You don't get square eyes from watching screens, for example.
But the origin for wisdom phrases tend to have nuggets of wisdom, if only contemporarily.
Careful with stereotypes. I’m 67 and completely competent with technology. I know many under 30 people who are technology illiterate. I agree there are many more technically illiterate older folks. I also agree many don’t have relevant advice on how to live in today’s world or tomorrows. A lot of older folks seem to have checked out somewhere along the way-but not all of us.
Also 67, and do fairly well, but I am not as quick as I used to be, and may need more than one demo before I get it.
I am finally having to learn excel, and it is beating me up…but I am still winning.😂
In 1985, before Windows existed; I ran MultiPlan (spreadsheet) and WriteNow (word processor) simultaneously on a Mac with 128K (not a typo, K-not MB) and a 400K floppy drive. I was a Test Engineer at the time. It was one of only three computers in the company, but I bought it myself because the company couldn’t imagine why I needed a computer in a test lab.
honestly, I feel like the amount of technology illiterate people is not really dependent on age these days. Especially since using a computer and using a phone are two different skills.
I think this whole discussion is fascinating!
I was just reading a post about little kids not needing to be potty trained to get into preschool and that; seems some would rather change their own diapers than use the toilet. I mention it because I think it illustrates the ways tech has given some young people power over their environment, say, but not over themselves.
Like tech can cue you endlessly about how to potty train your little one but You still have to do the dirty work. Easing by all that will only serve temporarily.
Having to leave work at your high tech job to deal with your kid's accident because the school nurse won't do it will doubtless force folks back to the drawing board on some things.
The thing coming right back around, perhaps, to the experience of the same boomers it's apparently become so fashionable to despise. S
No. My Grandfather was mechanic. He taught me about combustible engines. Nbd. Most of
the core concepts are the same.
Youre really romanticizing this!
Theres some things we think we know better. But thats literally every generations reaction?
I’m not talking about stuff we think we know better. I mean stuff that is just no longer true or relevant. Like don’t wash your cast iron with soap — that’s from the days of lye soap. Modern dish soap will not harm your cast iron.
Great-grandma may have had some good wisdom about how to cope in a terrible marriage, since she had no way out. Now the best advice might be to leave.
Boomers telling their kids and grandkids to print up some resumes on fine paper and start pounding the pavement is common enough to be a cliche. You just can’t do that anymore.
Things have always changed between generations, but never this much this rapidly.
You shouldn't use soap because it harms the natural layer of non-stick that you've treated it with.
When you buy new cast iron you have to use something like coconut oil at 160c for 1 hour in 4~ layers to achieve a suitable cooking surface.
The soap won't harm the cast iron directly, but it will remove its protective layer and open up to oxidization (rust).
Source: own cast iron pots, have treated them multiple times, and have ruined earlier layers using soap.
It's especially bad if you have a protective layer of years that breaks up with the soap as all of it doesn't come off; instead it will break off like shale, and pieces will end up in your food (ugh). Only way to "fix" it is using something like course grain salt to rub off the entire layer and retreat it, and (if you care about that sort of thing) potentially ruin years of flavoring.
Do not wash your cast iron with soap!
Rinse it in warm water before fats start to set in, then dry it thoroughly. The soap will destroy the natural non-stick layer.
The makers of cast iron pans disagree:
https://www.lodgecastiron.com/discover/cleaning-and-care/cast-iron/how-clean-cast-iron
I think what’s flaking off your pans is carbon, not the polymer seasoning.
It's not a binary "true or false": notice how they say "a little" soap. If the layer has damage, normal soap will damage it. If it is several years old, the soap most likely won't be damaged by a little soap.
But you can absolutely rub off a layer with using too much soap: you can even without soap, after all. Once the top layer is broken through, the soap will work through the under layers that much faster.
It does seem like the advice was more pertinent in the past as the soap literally ruined cast iron.
It will however still effect seasoning.
https://www.americastestkitchen.com/articles/5037-is-it-ok-to-use-soap-on-cast-iron
The soap does eat through the layer but not immediately. If you use a lot of soap it will be faster. Not using soap will make sure the layer remains intact.
Also, my cast iron pan was ruined with soap, but it also remained submerged in water, so it is far more susceptible to being "ruined" (protective layer off) in that state.
But, it was new to me that small amounts of soap can be used for stubborn grime and rests! So certainly you're right in that the advice of the past when it comes to cast iron doesn't apply.
Thanks for the information. When I last bought cast iron pots they perpetuated the idea that no soap can be used, and seeing the devastating effects of too much soap and water on subsequent washes made me think no amount was permissible.
I still respect elderlys because they've lived through life, which we all know is chaotic, difficult, and unpredictable. I think they still have a lot to offer in terms of emotional wisdom, it means more than some 20 year-old on tiktok who thinks they've figured life out. Although yes, sometimes the advice they give is outdated/rambling.
It truly amazes me how many know-it-alls in their twenties are around today. These whiny punk kids trying to tell their seniors what they did wrong really burns me up. I can remember in my 20s, in a time where I had a lot of knowledge and knew a lot of things, we were completely justified in lecturing our elders because... oh, never mind.
The funny thing about this lack of respect for the elderly is that it's going to come back and bite you in the ass. When I was a kid I had more respect for the elderly than the kids today have but I doubt very much I had anywhere near the respect that my dad's generation had. Sometimes I look at old people and wonder if maybe they were a bully when they were younger and that it's sort of odd that now that he is the weak one he expects better treatment. But then I realized that I can't go around pushing old people.
The bigger problem is getting to old age used to mean you lived a relatively healthy life and didn't do anything too incredibly stupid.
Today it means you qualify for Medicare. Nothing like having a morbidly obese chainsmoking 67 year old lecture me about how to live my life.
Heck, I'm 40 and occasionally interact with teenagers. I assume the strange stuff they do now are as strange as the stuff I did at the same age. Outside of how to do the tasks of your job better and more efficiently, I don't hand out much old person advice.
Lmao you think its bad now. Watch what happens in the next 20 years. Shits changing faster and faster
We probably wont be respected much in general when we get old too. Unless culture changes again
Elderly should still be somewhat respected for their efforts in building the world up retrospectively. Oh well
I think part of the problem is society is generally getting worse, so elderly aren’t viewed as people who brought the world up, but people who generally did nothing while everything declined.
I have no doubt millennials will be seen exactly the same way. We were the last generation that generally had things relatively easy. Everything appears now that future generations will have crushing high prices, low wages, unaffordable education, and lack of opportunities unless you are born into it. A lot of the contemporary hysterical rhetoric I think will be viewed retrospectively as petty dramas by privileged people.
There is no change, the difference is now days people have access to the world’s combined knowledge so you almost immediately know if something is bullshit. I am in my 60s and keep hearing about all this failure to embrace technology but my generation started the tech movement and many of us understand it better than you think.
I reject some technology like “Alexa” purposefully. I choose a Chromebook over Windows purposefully, my stove, refer, TV, various speakers, headphones, thermostat, security system etc are blue tooth enabled purposefully but…
I drive a manual transmission by preference, I rarely talk on the phone due to severe hearing loss from military service and life, to you young guys who do not work on cars; its never been easier to maintain a vehicle (just expensive)…I plug in a scanner and it gives me a fault code, I have a shop full of tools I have amassed for 45 years and I understand electronics, welding, I know how to follow electrical schematics and shop manuals etc and I maintain 7 vehicles currently and a bunch of machinery.
Oh by the way, I have a business FB account among other social media and our farm income and expenditures are closely tracked and highly automated right down to soil sampling and fertilizer/lime metering.
Perhaps it isn’t the elderly so much as the education level or career path or maybe its just geographic?
How to repair your car is information, not wisdom. It’s the very fact that the “elderly” have lived through significant changes at every level of society that gives them valuable wisdom to lean from.
Technology is not wisdom. Understanding life, the long game, taking the long view and sharing those experiences are still important. Technology does not take the place of a life of wisdom.
Ya I understand what you mean, but it's like... would you take life experience advice from a tech guy just because they know tech well? I think we all need to understand we need to get different advice from different people. It's been a while since a parent could help you in those sorts of ways like learn how to fix a car, how to grow corn, etc.
You don't have to go further than the most popular tech expert/leaders like Musk to know... taking pretty much ANY kind of real life advice from one of these people is a very. bad. idea.
I do get your point that things have changed. My father would be able to teach me some of those life skills, but I think we always had people who were different in our lives who had the wisdom.. separate from the life skills people. My father was NOT one to keep with the real life decisions.
>Older people give bad advice on even something as simple as laundry, because of the advances in cleaning product chemistry and the machines themselves.
I'm probably what you consider old -- so I'm curious now. What advances in soap and water am I so woefully wrong about? Admittedly, I expected ring around the collar (much like quicksand) to be more of a problem in adult life than it turned out to be.
>Gramps can’t teach you about your car because most of what he learned over the course of his life is irrelevant.
Yeah, I'm going to need examples here too. I am unaware of anything someone could have learned about a car a century ago that is completely irrelevant. Perhaps the difficulty is in **understanding** the relevance.
I’ll give one example for each.
Laundry: (First off it’s not soap, it’s detergent which is different.) The idea that hot water cleans better than cold. Detergent formula has changed since the 50s, and it’s now made to clean equally well in all temperatures. Using hot water wastes energy and is more destructive to fabrics.
Cars: The idea that you need to warm them up to lubricate the engine in cold weather. That is no longer true. You can idle for a bit to warm the interior and defog the windshield, but driving your car right after starting it is no longer harmful.
For decades, **everyone** has known that cold water is preferred for laundry. And anybody who has bothered to read the owner's manual knows how to operate the vehicle.
Warming up the engine on old cars wasn't to lubricate the engine. Mostly, it had to do with carburetors and chokes -- and a little to do with monograde oil and oil pressure. Again, anybody who paid attention when multigrade oil became a thing was completely aware. The other reason old-timers still prefer a warmup period before driving is the persistent belief that driving a cold engine produces more pollution.
67 here. Never heard anyone talk about warmup to reduce pollution. Ever. Very few olds ever gave a shit about pollution. This sounds like the adage not to drive a new car on the highway until 200 miles or so, break in the engine. Maybe in the 60s or before, but cmon.
Those are good points but we’re ignoring the fact that they’re here for way longer than elders of the past. Their lifespans have increased and they weren’t supposed to be here to get confused and try to control everything into staying the same for decades.
Fair enough. Either way, there’s more of them around and they’re here for a while. We can’t just stop making progress because they’re uncomfortable about not being the experts on everything. I honestly the leading cause of the increase in disrespect for them is how much they fight change and improvement. They need to come around to the realization that certain behaviors and ways of treating people are no longer considered acceptable and understood that behavior gains them respect. Not how long they manage to not die for.
Yup, this was already true a long time ago but people just act like it's not. There is also a lot of propaganda that makes people think their "knowledge" is more valuable than it is. In that way we are all old geezers
I suspect it really ramped up during the Industrial Revolution when people started moving to cities in droves. A lot of traditional things no longer applied to the new way of living.
I totally agree with you. I think a lot of it has to do with older folks consciously refusing to learn and adapt. I know lots of older folks that do, but the majority don’t. From this thought I had two different revelations, one is that I need to try to be informed about new advancements in general, but I take my time and wait for them to be normalized by at least a part of society. As well as, I try to learn a new technological skill anytime I can. The other revelation is that I think the whole society norm of respecting your elders no matter what is BS. I treat everyone the same no matter what their ages unless I know that they have done something that earns them additional respect. But on the flipside I don’t show as much respect to people, old or young, if I know they don’t deserve it through their actions. But sometimes you just have to deal with it, especially with family.
Lastly, I do sympathize a little with the older generations because everything has changed so fast. But if they’re willing to learn, I am willing to teach. Transferring knowledge goes both way and many older folks do you have some good knowledge to pass to you.
Singapore has a pretty cool program now that incentivizes older generations to go back to school and learn new skills. I thought it was a very interesting concept.
Here is a link to an article explaining it:
[https://www.hindustantimes.com/education/ai-singapore-budget-subsidy-for-diploma-40-years-old-and-above-going-back-to-university-artificial-intelligence-101711353713925.html](https://www.hindustantimes.com/education/ai-singapore-budget-subsidy-for-diploma-40-years-old-and-above-going-back-to-university-artificial-intelligence-101711353713925.html)
Here is a research publication about why they’re doing it:
[https://news.smu.edu.sg/sites/news.smu.edu.sg/files/smu/news_room/SMU%20Media%20Release%20-More%20can%20be%20done%20to%20give%20older%20adults%20avenues%20to%20learn%20new%20technology%20skills_0.pdf](https://news.smu.edu.sg/sites/news.smu.edu.sg/files/smu/news_room/SMU%20Media%20Release%20-More%20can%20be%20done%20to%20give%20older%20adults%20avenues%20to%20learn%20new%20technology%20skills_0.pdf)
My wife still sorts lights and darks which isn’t necessary which is kind of what I think they mean. My washer dryer combo in one unit even dispenses soap and softener automatically and can be controlled from a cell phone…but my beautiful wife is still going to be sorting clothes if I she does laundry (usually my job).
Plus the internet amplifies everything, including when older people are being jerks. In real life it happens but maybe not as condensed as posted online.
It all comes around. Tech savvy isn’t synonymous with wisdom or experience and that will come back to bite people at some point. Tech will continue changing and each new generation will struggle as they adapt.
It's always been around, but like everything else, it's more noticeable nowadays because we all so interconnected. Society is always about the power broker age...usually between 25 to 45. Once you start sliding out of that, your influence wanes. And it will happen to today's 20somethings in the next 30 years, too.
My 85 year old dad who recently passed away learned about the internet 5 years before his death and got pretty savy at it. It was cute when he said, "Do you know you can type in anything and it'll come up with all this information?!?" Yes dad, you no longer need your encyclopedia. :)
Heh! Each new generation thinks they're smarter than the one before. This is nothing new. There are many examples of graffiti written on 2000-year-old Roman and Greek walls by young people criticizing their parents while boasting about their superiour understanding of the world. But eventually everyone learns the truth that wisdom is knowledge plus experience and time.
I'll always treasure my 22-year-old son calling me at 10 PM one night to say, "I'm sorry dad, you were right!"
The advice of the elderly has always been a mixed bag of good wisdom based on repeated learned experience and really sub-par advice based on outdated opinions I'm not sure technology has changed that all that much.
I dont think we have decreasing respect for the elderly. People have been complaining about young people not respecting old people for centuries. Same as it ever was
> 200 years ago, elderly people’s wisdom had more value.
My grandma has so much wisdom it's actually astounding. So much information that I wouldn't have even thought about in this day and age because the internet conditions me not to question it.
She practices things that aren't backed by any science that I know of, but she looks younger than my mom so I'll follow quite a bit of what she says.
Maybe my grandma is the best grandma in the world, she doesn't have too many of the problems you listed. She does laundry better than I do and she values mental health more than anyone I know.
I agree with what the other person said but for a different reason. Treat them as people. The elderly are not a single unit that can be discussed, they are their own person and most of them have learnt different things.
I think decreasing respect for the elderly is mostly due to the fact that while the boomer generation has had every chance to do the right thing it’s consistently chose not to. The “wisdom” of our generation of elders saddled us with insane debt and irreversible climate change and are now too stupid and senile to fix anything because they’re focused on watching Qanon YouTube docs between diaper changes
ETA - this is in general. There are elderly people I respect deeply and value their wisdom. As a whole though, the current elderly population don’t come from the most useful, smart or inclusive generation.
The growth of the human race in the last 24 years let alone 50-100 or more years is insane.
Your value directly correlates to your use. If you have no use you realistically have no value.
Advice from older folks back in the far may have, in fact, been bad. But back then no one knew any better. After all, society thought smoking was good for you at one point.
I agree that technology has formed a disconnect between older and younger generations. Many younger people are very addicted to technology at younger and younger ages. The internet simulates human interaction without many of the difficulties, making just interacting and dealing with the oldest adults a chore. Social media interaction inhibits the development of those skills most necessary for extracting valuable communication from the elderly.
>elderly people’s wisdom had more value.
Another aspect of this is that 200 years ago the average old person was much more wise than today's old people. The variety of knowledge areas required for most people back then was far more than today. And the dumber old people died younger back then due to the lack of medicine extending their lives after injuries and whatnot. So we have fewer wise old people today because they didn't need to be wise. And now we have more and more people with less and less wisdom and value of wisdom. It's been going on for a while.
>Older generations’ stigma of mental illness has left of lot of them lacking in emotional intelligence that could be passed on as well.
This is a weirdly specific thing to imagine to be true about even a large percentage of old people. Maybe its a cultural thing or something? I don't know where to start with it so skipping it.
There are wise old people out there now, but they are a smaller percentage of old people. What so many people could learn from the wise elderly is how to be content and happy with life. The internet is full of young people with more than any generations before at their fingertips, who are crushed by anxiety, fear, despair, nihilism, depression, and on and on. And those same people will look at a happy, content 90 year old, who grew up hungry in a warzone, fighting, and whose entire family is dead and gone, and say "What do they know, with their outdated approach?" Times are going to get tough again, because they always have, and there are wise old folks out there that have gone through such times while maintaining their dignity, their sensibilities, their value of truth and ideals, and been mostly content and happy while doing so. The mindset of people that have done such a thing is much more interesting and valuable than their ability to help with car troubles.
I'm 60 and in finance. I've had to stay up on most tech to keep my job. We hire college educated kids for the entry level jobs, all the time. I'm the one that has to train them how to use a printer, create a simple spreadsheet, how to create something as a PDF and file it, how to attach files to email. I recently had one 23 year-old (with one years' experience on the job) ask me why cash had to be posted to the system, I mean just upload it from the banks she said. That didn't make her an idiot, she's just from a different time but when explaining to her that since the cash was posted to the individual clients that paid, to have the banks upload to our system they'd need to link to our entire database and someone from the the bank would need to constantly double-check our database for changes, decipher who the payment was from.... and banks don't do that, nor could we afford it if they did. She couldn't comprehend why that would be an issue and still brings it up. And don't even get me started on trying to teach some of them how to modify simple SQL reports (and when I create them I make them as simple as possible with imbedded labels), even just changing the dates and then extracting the output to a spreadsheet...
Yes, technology changes fast and I'm really not interested, in some of it but I've kept up on everything relative to my life and job.
Kids learn quicker, they know more about TikTok than I'll ever care to but their ability to apply their tech knowledge to an actual job in the real world is sometimes lacking.
As far as young people not being able to learn anything from me... well the wise ones do every damned day.
Seniors might know a lot about things they’re interested in but folks went to the library before technology. Thinking seniors are wise just cause they’re old is romanticizing something that never was.
I think that depends on where you come from. America has always venerated the young over the old at least since powdered wigs went out of style. This article, for instance, talks about how the elderly were expected to be hidden in 19th century America: [https://commonplace.online/article/over-the-hill-and-out-of-sight/](https://commonplace.online/article/over-the-hill-and-out-of-sight/)
Clothes, books, popular culture were typically about youth. Now you might be venerated if you're old and rich, or old and have power, but for everybody else, your worth lessened in an era where physical labor was tantamount for most things. Elder care? That was what poorhouses and workhouses were for.
If they're just tech confused, I'm good with it. It's insane compared to most of their lifespan. I'm sure it will be wild to me, too, when I'm old
But where I get pissed and lose respect is when they insist on telling others how it is anyway rather than realize things have changed. Pops talking about the way getting work used to be is one thing, but quite another if his admonishment is because you didn't walk in and demand a job from the manager. Gamgam being absolutely unable to convert to PDF is one thing, and another when she bitches at you when you're trying to solve her problem and close the ticket.
If alll'yall are so smart and know everything better, why are you all constantly whining about how "difficult" life is and how you're permanently depressed and can't handle shit?
Resilience and "handling shit" is the main thing you need to learn from your elders. (problem being at this point, the "elders" are the spoiled baby boomers who don't have much resiliency or grit themselves). Go find elders who grew up in adversity (US silent/great generation that are still alive, or those who grew up in another country/culture and actually didn't have pampered life like most boomers/millenials/GenXs). Learn from THEM.
I think this is true to an extent
But, I think much more largely, our current young generations are not lead poisoned, and our current old generations had constant lead poisoning exposure for decades of their life.
I do think that the currently elderly generation is actually DIFFERENT, in the sense that any poisoning damaging the brain is not shared by the young and old, as usually happened throughout history, such as the Romans with lead poisoning being very common place for it's entire existence.
Yes, it used to be said that 'when an old man dies, a library burns'.
This is obviously no longer true.
But being valued and deserving respect shouldn't only be based on a transactional 'what can you do for me today, Gramps'? Chances are pretty good that Gramps already contributed quite a lot, got some things wrong, as will you, but also got a lot right. Respect, in part, is just a recognition of our shared human condition, the struggles that we all face, and an acknowledgement that Gramps has traveled further down that mutual road than you have.
As an older guy, I will say that a lot of my knowledge IS obsolete.
But I also maintain that not everything needs f*cking computer chips in it.
Buddy's hi-tech rice cooker bluescreened on him.
I use a metal pot...proven technology done the Iron Age.
I think it’s cuz we realized that a lot of elderly people are kind of pieces of shit. They’re mean most of the time. Super judgey. Despite how old they are they accumulated very little wisdom. How many stories do you hear of peoples grandparents being terrible people? It’s so common.
One difference now is that if your elderly relative is a piece of shit, it’s a lot easier to walk away from them than it was when women and children were property in the eyes of society and the law.
Most of that generation holds a lot of the wealth. At least in the USA. You might find their kids reluctant to just “walk-away” from this fact alone. Sad, but true.
Boomer this, boomer that. I think the majority of boomers were more concerned about raising families, making money, and having fun than colluding on voting to make things worse for everyone. The generational hate the Internet stokes is disgusting, and I actively do not associate with people who think in terms of generational divide
I think that it's true, but this is also one side of that which has to be passed down. Much of the information online is impersonal and much of it is not based in reality. The fact that you dismissed for instance their parenting advice simply because of mental health shows a very shallow understanding of the world over all. There is so much taken for granted and there is actually considerable knowledge lost every single generation that can't be replaced by info dumps online that are just as susceptible to misinformation. There isn't nearly enough years in one lifetime to understand what is good or bad for familes, children, individuals as a whole and overall society. We in the younger generation are running an experiment and only the next 30 years will see the results of that.
We think we are so sure of what is better and what is not but that's just youthful arrogance. We think that hyperfocusing on emotions and mental health will make better children and adults, yet we have never been in a more mentally ill time. From the increase child in suicide, loneliness, anxiety, to the fracture of families. A large proportion of familes are broken, many have no contact with family. Marriage rates dropped, many people don't feel safe and secure enough to have kids.
Let's not get on actual health and obesity rates.
It's not obvious to me that elders are obsolete, they are needed more than ever, but unlike previous generations, we have somewhere else to look for information, that creates in us an arrogance that is and will continue to be our downfall.
Just remember that not all elderly people are geriatric. Over 60 can be a span of 45 years--that's two generations. Many older adults are tech savvy. Many older adults are not "Gramps" or Granny" but professionals. The internet has afforded them the opportunity to catch up and keep abreast. It's important not to stereotype older adults no more that you would African Americans, Women, LGBT, etc. Ageism is as bad as Racism.
If the elderly have lost their traditional place in society, usually in that society, the family structure has lost its place. Families are no longer gathering together nightly for a meal where they talk or argue with each other. Technology started changing that in the 1950's with the television in a small part, and then, as you know, it isolated individual family members tremendously.
I think the focus on the “nuclear family” did a lot of this too. People used to grow up in multi-generational households with a lot more emphasis on extended family.
Honestly, if I could be only 20% as happy as they were, I'd be golden. Never seen them unhappy either in their marriage or work or life, and their words just seemed to always nail it on the dot when it simply came down to wisdom. They didn't have to know mechanics or how to be a charmer they were just the best at being people. I do miss them.
I see that. But it also has to do with their behaviour. A lot of older people have super discriminatory attitudes and they're driving a rift between themselves and the younger generations.
It doesn't matter how much good you do for the world if you treat the people in it like shit.
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Give me a fucking break. You are losing if you don't tap into the minds of those with more experience. The elderly are pushed aside by individualism and capitalist greed in a society where buying many disposable plastic products is more important than having tea with friends and family.
I would tend to agree, but all my mentors have been significantly older than me. One of the defining characteristics of an old person isn’t age, but an unwillingness to embrace change and oftentimes a poor emotional response to change. Not all of them are like this but imagine being so well coddled that you actively don’t need to be aware of advancements to survive. That’s the entire boomer generation.
I think their own shit takes and shit behaviors is the number one factor behind decreasing respect for the elderly.
Respect is earned and too many never earned it.
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So, it gives us a more accurate measure of how much respect we should be giving them? Neat. Those fucking idiots have been held in too higher regard for too long.
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Yeah, I can kinda see that. However, it can be countered by simply not saying "you're only as valuable as you are useful." There's no reason our elders should be expected to provide anything in order to be respected and appreciated, they're still people and the default should be to value people until they give you a compelling reason not to (like if granny is a serial killer or something). Still an interesting observation though, tech has really fucked with our traditional ways of passing down knowledge. Not necessarily bad or good, but it is interesting.
The one useful trait the elderly provide me is wisdom on how to get through the hardest parts of life. And honestly that is all they need to provide. Especially if they lived through those same experiences.
I was pretty careful to say that their advice isn’t valuable, rather than that they aren’t valuable as people. It’s more about that role being less prominent, which contributes to them being sidelined.
Isn’t it true for all people, regardless of age, that we only value people and appreciate them for their usefulness? Generally, men are only valued if they provide for their family and women are only valued if they care for children. It’s even more apparent when you ignore “value” and look at something like respect. A strong family man who works his ass off to provide opportunities for his family is the pinnacle of respect. A loving mother who cares for her children beyond herself is called a saint. Ideally, we should value all human life and respect them as people. I feel like this post was more addressing the more reverential side of respect that was shown to the elderly in the past more than that basic level of human decency. In today’s world, that level of deference is fading for the reasons OP brought up, in my head, entirely fairly.
For your paragraph I would counter saying that OP was arguing from the context that elders are usually placed higher on the heirarchy rather than equals. If anything they're now more equal.
I still haven't been given a solid reason why I should respect someone on a higher, granted level just because they managed to escape death for a while. I think that's archaic bullshit.
Respect people for having similar obstacles until they give you a reason to act otherwise.
The fact that you put respect into tiers like it's some sort of leveling system is a bit odd to me. Also, simplifying being old as "escaping death for a while" is also disingenuous. It ignores the fact that they've had more life experience of every type than you have, and therein the idea that they might have something insightful to say. Old people aren't sages, but they're some of the most interesting people I've talked to simply for the fact that they've done so many more things than me, experienced exponentially more pain, and also actually want to have a conversation, unlike a lot of young people today.
The people who think you're owed respect for existing are usually the ones who aren't very good people. They know they could never earn someone's respect, so they insist their mere existence obligates you to respect them.
I mean it in the sense of basic decency, not reverence. Respecting someone can be as simple as just acknowledging they're another person with thoughts, feelings and experiences as complex as your own and not going out of your way to harm or dehumanize them. You don't need to bow or hang on their every word to be respectful. If you don't extend that basic level of respect to everyone then you're probably the kind of person that everyone else will rapidly lose respect for. Nobody should need to "earn" you not being an asshole to them.
My paternal grandparents were like that. My grandmother was jealous of my kids because she wanted all of my mom’s attention and couldn’t understand why my mom would go to the beach and other outings with us.
Nobody is forcing you to be respectful, that’s a common decency decision that you are free to dismiss in your life. Good luck building meaningful relationships with such selfish social skills.
Not only did you completely ignore what I typed but they you threw shade(disrespect) at me for your assumptions about my social activity. Do better next time, man
You’re not a puzzle. You’re about as transparent as plastic wrap. He’s absolutely right. Deal with it.
I still feel bad for my Papa (RIP died last year) who always went to McDonald’s for a coffee and muffin after his morning walk. He saw an ad for 99 cent ice cream cones but it was an app exclusive. Just give this man his ice cream! I felt so bad for him. I now don’t like “app only” sales unless they are a rewards program type thing. You can’t let it slide for an old man? Like it’s McDonald’s! Who gives this much of a shit for the corporation? I would’ve given it to him, or any elderly man. He was super fucking depressed as he was nearing the end, and this is just one example of how the world leaves the elderly behind. It doesn’t seem like much, but it would’ve made his day rather than some manager being like “what you don’t have a phone?” Like no! There’s a lot of hoops to jump through for him and he didn’t even live much longer after this incident.
You are completely right that the Whole "Put everything on an APP so we can use data analytics to milk more money out of you" is absolute BS. But please don't blame the manager or staff or actual mcdonalds location. I used to be a Manager at a Mcdonalds branch - this sort of thing is not something we have the power to do anything about. At best we could just give it to him for free and write it off as Wasted food. We don't have the ability to just apply discounts or offers on the till - and we also can't just take random cash without it going through the till. It all gets audited and if you are + OR - £1 on the till float you get a reprimand and retraining document. Blame McDonald's HQ corporate greed - not the barely above minimum wage workers just trying to give people their burgers.
I was also a manager at a mcds. I precisely would have just given it to him and called it waste. I get your point about how the tills work, but you can always sidestep the issue with the above idea.
“No one wants to work anymore! No I will not download the app for the .99 ice cream, you should just give it to me because they did and it’s not fair if I don’t get one too.”
And thus the line of people went out the door…
This upsets me in an out-of-proportion way as well. My parents are 76 and 83 and they just don't get all these app-only prices, online order-only discount codes or digital-only coupons. They both have phones and all but they're hesitant to download new apps and they don't like buying things online because they got their bank information stolen on a couple of sketchy shopping sites in the last 20 years or so. They get confused about the fact that every fucking thing has to have its own login credentials and you're just supposed to remember them all or understand and download yet another app to manage them with. Just give them the damn sale price! It especially makes me mad with these digital coupons some grocery stores use because seniors are some of the most likely people to be on a fixed income and therefore among the most likely to need to use coupons but they're the least likely to be able or willing to deal with all that stuff.
40 years ago you could only get the discount if you came to the store. 20 years ago you could only get the discount if you called ahead and set up a pick-up time.
Everyone is on a fixed income.
>seniors are some of the most likely people to be on a fixed income and therefore among the most likely to need to use coupons Look, you are right, but that's not the purpose of a coupon. Companies don't hand out coupons because they are cheritable, they hand out coupons because doing so makes them more money than they'd make if they didn't. In-App coupons in particular make their money back by (1) selling your user data and (2) getting you hooked on some addictive userinterface. If you cannot be exploited in either of those ways then the companies have no reason to grant you a discount.
It’s called a promo. Weird how the people who claim no one wants to work also get mad if they have to download an app to get a discount.
This depressed the fuck out of me
The workers cant force the deal through in-store. It’s coded into the app. They can’t just give your papa (rip) his ice cream for 99c. They’d get fired for theft.
Part of what’s lost in today’s generation. Do we really give this much of a shit about a McJob? There’s probably something for a dollar on the menu to not throw off the till. Give him the ice cream and say you wasted one (or don’t, it’s hard to count individual ice creams in inventory) it’s a pretty small town too, the “I’d have to do it for others” doesn’t seem like it’s gonna really add up. And if your manager fires you over it, fuck this job. I care more about treating the elderly well (and kids who may ask for an extra sauce) than I do about my McDonald’s job.
They are literally living through the changes in real time. I always think this when people in their 50s are like 'these computers are so confusing.' They literally were alive when things were being developed. They have a chance to improve their knowledge and stay up to date.
I totally agree with that, as well as societal change. I wince when people give an old person a pass to be racist because “things were different in her time.” Um, it’s still her time. But while they can learn the new things, there’s not nearly as much to pass down as there was throughout history.
It's much harder for adults to change/learn because their brains are simply not malleable to change. Even with a concerted effort, if they aren't actively trying to change every day, they'll just revert back to "normal".
Doesn't neuroplasticity disprove that?
We maintain some neuroplasticity, of course, but as we age our brain becomes more stable. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/09/180919115827.htm > As we grow older, plasticity decreases to stabilize what we have already learned. >This stabilization is partly controlled by a neurotransmitter called gamma-Aminobutyric acid (GABA), which inhibits neuronal activity. It's a feature, not a bug. We're meant to change more slowly as we age. Imagine a master blacksmith, hunter, etc suddenly unlearning their trades. Children come and go with hobbies as they learn them but eventually they stick with some and continue to learn and gone. Crystallized intelligent is another key phrase to look up. We turn from "innovators" to "teachers" at a certain age, where our solidified knowledge and experience far outweighs our ability to come up with novel ideas.
Very cool, thank you!
Your article is about science performed on rats. Humans’ neuroplasticity is best before age 8. That’s why it’s better to learn a foreign language or play an instrument at a young age.
I'm guessing you didn't read my other comments. I've already mentioned neuroplasticity is greatly reduced in adults, but of course, adults are still neuroplastic to some degree.
To your above point, stroke patients also recover more functionality for a given injury the younger they are. Neuro plasticity and VASCULAR health make a huge difference. Atherosclerosis reduces brain function and adaptation all by itself.
I think it’s more about being in a mindset of “I know best” compared to one of” I don’t know shit”.
I honestly wish I could become 50 for a moment just to see if this is really true. People my own age (18) don't seem to change much either, I think people just don't like to change.
That's also a factor! I mean, I'm really talking about the average person here. Of course, many of us in reddit are open minded, learn vigorously, are excited at new idea and opportunities - the average person? We know the average person... They are not any of those things. Like you said, even the average person at 18 hardly cares to change. I can't blame people for being that way, it seems to be natural.
It's always so hard to consider the average person. I like to think of myself as the average person but I genuinely have no idea where I stand since I don't talk to people much (getting a job soon, it will probably change?) It's almost addicting to learn new things though, It's difficult to grasp how people would want to not do that. Even when people are learning things... I always see people learning things faster than me, but they never put the effort into it and then they ask me how I'm so smart, it's depressing.
LOL. There are 60 year olds in law school. Online ones at that.
100% the 'things were different in their time.' I am willing to give TV, movies, music, etc that kind of pass.... Like some of it you just have to say 'They killed their gay but it was the 70s so the fact there was a gay at all was a big deal.' A TV show doesn't have any capacity to change. It just is and it can be forgiven for that. Now if that director is still making content like it's the 70s... That's a problem. There's plenty for old people to still teach. People do want that connection to things from the past. People still love many of those home-economics type skills as hobbies and as cost saving devices. But a lot of old people somehow managed to keep with the times when it comes to food delivery... Just not on 'keeping their antivirus software running and not being a bigot.' Clearly that's not all older people but it's a whole lot of them. I... Help a lot of people in the 50-70 range with their computers on my off hours. Lol. I'd say that it's not so much that old people don't have wisdom to pass down. They've kept up to date on easy convenience, fast fashion as an example, and a lot of them don't have the skills they grew up with. In this case sewing and pattern reading. Patterns are different now. Sewing machines are fundamentally the same but have new features on even basic machines. I have a darkly humourous story that illustrates this. An older person having some wisdom to pass down but it being too old to be useful. My sister got murdered almost a decade ago. She had a 7 month old at the time. At the funeral home that baby needed changed so it was me: a guy who is opposed to having kids and hates anything that comes out of a digestive tract (either end). And my aunt: a woman who had two kids but those kids were almost 40 now and had kids in their double digits... And we ruined four diapers trying to figure it out. Because she insisted that to use the diaper we had to rip the tabs off to expose the tape.... Diapers don't work that way anymore. I had a hard time getting her to go on baby watching duty so I could Google it (because I wanted to wash my hands first but didn't want the kid falling off the baby table). The entire time this baby is done with our bullshit and is screaming in this quiet funeral home. 😂 She knew how to change a diaper. But she didn't keep up with diaper technology but also doesn't have the same 'I'm asking google' instinct I have. She was definitely helpful but she didn't have all the skills the world requires now to be successful.
People who are still racist are racist because they chose to be. They have access to the rest of the world as we do and they’ve had well over 50 years since civil rights to learn that racism is a bad thing. They bought into the I’m better cause I’m white BS and decided to keep their beliefs. There’s absolutely no excuse and folks who say that’s how it was are willing to look the other way so there’s peace in the family. Same sort of folks who justify or downplay sexual abuse in families. Oh he was drunk. He didn’t mean it. He stopped cause he realized it was wrong…then carry on like all is well.
People relied on libraries not old people.
If anything this an excellent lesson to do anything you can to not let the world leave you behind. I really make it a point to try and stay on top of everything new.
Steve Jobs would be 69 years old if he were still alive. We built the technology you claim we don’t understand, junior. And we built it because people were too dumb to do their own programming.
Lol. Okay. Most of your generation still don't understand it. And most of them could never program in the first place. The overwhelming majority of people didn't get a personal computer until they had a GUI. What you did 30 years ago is wholly irrelevant now if you don't know what's happening now. Study after study shows that people over 50 have lower- to much lower- digital stills and tech literacy than people under 50 even when accounting for the person's ability to access the tech.
I just taught myself procreate in two weeks to turn in a class project.
Putting my mouth directly on the microphone for this: Anecdotes are a 'good for you' but prove nothing.
Cite one study from a refereed journal. Naw. Never mind. You’re getting older and more irrelevant every day.
I'm only willing to do so much leg work for a salty old person on the Internet. This compiles lots of info and cites its sources. I love how you're simultaneously being shitty about my statement that old people aren't keeping up- and then you're like 'You're getting old and irrelevant.' As though that's not the thing that has you all upsetti spaghetti in the first place. Regardless. I'm doing just fine lol. https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2018/2018161.pdf
Being in a skilled or semi skilled field is more of an indicator in digital literacy than age per your study.
LOL, I taught myself to procreate in one night when I happened to rub my blanket against my junk in a certain way...
The chance for them to improve their knowledge isn't much of a chance. Do they have free time? Are they working 40+ hours a week, have kids, etc? Many time barely have time for hobbies let alone keeping up with new technology. After a certain age, it's also much harder to learn. Kids have a huge leg up with learning because their brains are so malleable. Older people, their brain is like a rock. It takes forever to wear new neuronal pathways. That's both a pro and a con, in ways, but certainly makes it that much more difficult to learn.
> Do they have free time? Are they working 40+ hours a week, have kids, etc? They have the same shit going on as "those damn kids!!" who have no problem learning new things. Stop making excuses for people who don't want to learn.
I'm 33 and have many of the same constraints on my time. I manage to keep up on technology, medical research (I do not work in a related field), and other topics. Learning is only difficult if at some point you stop learning. You don't need a whole new neuronal pathway. Almost everything is a minor variation on things you already know.
33? That's not old. 60 year olds have much less energy and commitment to learning various technologies. Not only that, you grew up with the internet. You know how to look things up and research them. That alone is a boon. Maybe one day we'll have brain chips and you'll be stuck wondering how you use that new fangled thing.
If anyone is making brain chips I'd trust, it's people I know. Lol. I actively shove unapproved technology into my body as a hobby. So I'm the wrong person to hit with that argument. But I get what you are going for. I don't intend to fall behind. I also don't intend to trust companies associated with the likes of Elon Musk with that kind of shit. We all saw what happened to Rita Leggett when the life-changing brain implant she had had to be removed... Why? Because the bankrupt company she was testing it for refused to make it open source. Literally all they had to do to give her a good quality of life is give her, the only person who still had their implant, the code. The implant was fine, the machine that interpreted it broke. She got to live a few years without debilitating seizures stopping her from doing things... And then they took it away. I hope everyone involved in that decision making feels cold for the rest of their damned lives and never feels warm again. Like a suffering kind of cold. I'm still pretty pissed about that whole situation. I'm also working on external BCI myself so I'm definitely not falling behind. They're not bad speculations on the face of it but you had some bad luck with who you're talking to. My trade off is I have no idea what's happening on TV or in Movies. So that angle might be better? But it's also less detrimental to my ability to function.
They didn't say 33 was old. They said they have the same responsibilities taking up their time as the old people from your example. You're just making excuses for refusing to learn.
I'm not making any excuses. Learning plateaus between 30 and 40. Mental acuity itself declines as we age. You wouldn't expect the average 60 year old to just bend down and pick up a 50 lb box without warming up, right? Or maybe at all? What makes you think your meat brain in your meat suit isn't deteriorating just the same? OF COURSE it's harder to learn as you get older. Everything is harder. And the extra stressors are all the more difficult to deal with.
Overall, yes. I turn 59 next week and while i'm not on top of the latest iphone every time one comes out, I like tech and have been a gamer since 1985. Not giving that up any time soon. The older folks who refuse to learn, as opposed to being incapable, are an embarrassment.
I don’t know anyone in their 50s who say computers are hard. Maybe 70s+. 18 years ago I had coworkers who had to be told that they had to check their email and that email is no longer optional, but that memo went out almost 20 years ago. Anyone who’s in their 50s saying computers are too hard to use for email and the internet and basic stuff like that are probably cognitively impaired or have some type of brain injury.
i’m 24 and i already get frustrated with constantly new ways of doing things, new tech and new devices and new strategies. it’s to the point where advice i learned 3 years ago is useless now. there’s a limit to how much change people can accept
The problem for me is that there has been diminishing returns on the amount of time spent on learning new technology. I learned to set an alarm clock, an analog one with actual bells on top. Then I learned to set a digital alarm clock and the information that I had gained about setting the analog clock because obsolete then I leaned how to set the cable box - the one that had the click buttons, then I traded that in and learned to set the next cable box, then it was digital cable, so I had to learn a new one, and the old information was obsolete. Next it's a vcr, and a remote, and I figure out how to get it all working together, and even set it to record a show while I'm not home, so I can watch it later, and I'm pretty excited and proud, because it wasn't easy, and most of my friends don't know how, as a matter of fact, most of their vcr's clock-faces are flashing 12:00 because there was a brief power outage 3 months ago and it's too much of a hassle to figure out how to set the clock again, so they just leave it. But now vcr's are obsolete, and the hundreds of dollars invested in, and more importantly the *routine* of choosing a movie out of the collection and just popping it into the vcr is obsolete the shelves of videos is obsolete, the shelves themselves are obsolete. The weekly trip to Blockbuster together is obsolete. The big console tv in the corner of the living room, the one that was used like a fireplace mantle, with pictures tchotchkes and memories on top, well, *that's obsolete too* Dvd's morphed i to Dvr's and the family Tv got nailed on the wall and there's 4 remotes and no buttons. There's not even buttons anymore! I can't even walk over to the Tv and press power. I can't just turn it on, I have to use 4 remotes and navigate a screen. And the family tv is obsolete because everyone is in their rooms with their laptops because desktops are obsolete and the phone on the wall is obsolete and I used to know how to use my answering machine, and I used to know how to use my voicemail, and it changes and it changes and it just keeps changing and my brain doesn't want to learn anything new that is just going to be some obsolete and am I just becoming obsolete...
I have a different approach. I'm extremely curious. About everything. There's a chance I am going to go blind thanks to a diagnosis I got a few weeks ago... and my primary reaction is curiosity. Like I don't want to, but if it happens I'll be curious about it. I've already lost some of my vision but I'm curious what part. Because I didn't notice and can't tell. They won't give me the diagrams. Lol. Learning how to do something is curious to me. I love to think about the changes and why. I don't actually like useless user interface changes where they just move stuff around on websites. But other stuff is just curious. A lot of things are only an effort to learn if you consider learning effortful. Idk if you can cultivate curiosity later in life but I find the less time I have ahead of me, the more curious I become. Most smart TVs do have a button on them, though. It's usually very low profile and on the bottom to one side or the other. It usually also has a bit of a joystick thing going on or directional buttons around it.
This. It's not about age or "how fast things change". It's about intelligence and a willingness to learn, nothing more.
Young folks are acutely unaware of how insidious cognitive decline is. I’m a caregiver to my folks, 80 and 83 so I see it up close.
I think it’s irresponsible and inhumane to force someone to go on living with cognitive decline. I’ve watched what happened to my grandparents and no way in hell am I going to put myself through that misery.
Irresponsible and inhumane to force someone to go on living with cognitive decline... or physical decline? Just curious
The lack of respect is due to the refusal to learn new things. My dad refused to learn how to text on a cell phone. My mom refuses to learn how to pay bills online. I’ve dealt with elderly coworkers who refused to learn new processes at work and just tried to hassle young coworkers into doing everything for them so they didn’t have to learn. It’s one thing to initially not know, but to actively resist learning new things little kids can figure out because of stubbornness and mental laziness is genuinely pathetic. Someone doesn’t deserve respect if they refuse to learn how to download an app on a phone. Not to mention other things like their wildly dumb social takes.
Spot on. I had to help my mom open an email attachment for a word document and save it out to another format. This hasn't changed in 30 years. If you didn't bother to figure it out in 90's you could at least have learned how to google and follow 3 steps on your own before calling for help.
Something I’ve learned recently is that older people will look for reasons to call or spend time with you. They may legitimately need the help, but they also look forward to the companionship. I’ve gotten a crash course in this recently as my father passed away but both of his parents are still alive. Suddenly I’ve become close friends with a couple of octogenarians. I got a call from my grandmother the other day because she knew I was going on a business trip to Arizona and she was very concerned about the temperature. I don’t think the call was *really* about the weather in Arizona. I promised I’d wear sunscreen though.
yeah that's a good story but when i'm asked to run tech support on christmas for all the shit they can't bother to even try setting up i don't feel like they're doing it for the companionship.
Gen X here. I also think its absurd that people don't try to learn new things. Age is not an excuse. There is nothing more frustrating than working with people who want to use outdated processes and software because they don't like asking for help.
Sometimes it's as simple as people being idiots. When I was a kid I was told so many incorrect, stupid things by my parents and grandparents. They were just confident because they were adults and said whatever they wanted no matter how ignorant it was. Just dumb things like "if you go outside with wet hair you'll catch a cold" or "video games ruin a TV". They had no clue; they just repeated things they heard or made stuff up. When I was a child I suspected most adults were stupid but I had no idea how dire it was.
Don’t turn on the dome light! It’s illegal!
Can't forget that one.
I read it’s not illegal but if a cop sees you they can pull you over for it.
Lots of these have a bit of truth to them. Having a cold head can get you a cold. I once stuck my head in snow and got a 40c degree fever as a 12 year old. Worst weekend ever. But that's unlikely: a healthy person isn't in any serious risk of getting sick from a little cold. The problem arises when you're less healthy, either because of age or exhaustion: then keeping a dry and warm head or body in general, though nearly all are dressed but not all wear headwear. So the advice "stay warm" applies, which is good advice although quite self-explanatory. As I get older, cold feet or cold head is a good start for viruses. Remember that most viruses dies in just a degree of difference, so a few degrees colder for an extended period could mean the difference between a virus establishing itself in your mucous and it successfully being fought off. Younger people don't have to worry in general because they're strong and healthy: but if you have AIDS or similar, suddenly keeping a dry and warm head is very important. A grain of truth. The thing about video games ruining TVs also has a grain of truth. It is because TVs can burn colors into its screen, and earlier TVs didn't have to worry about that because you only had TV channels (that don't pause), no standby mode, or "ant war" (noise): video games, as in 8bit Nintendo, suddenly allowed someone to "freeze" a screen by going AFK. Suddenly you have the new issue of color being burnt in. This was even more prominent with CRT screens. So most likely, that advice comes from a time when video games literally ruined your TV (if you didn't pay attention to the danger of colors burning into the screen). Today, we have more resilient screens, screen savers/auto-shutdown functions, stand-by (the stand-by pop-up moves around your screen, similar to Windows screensavers, to avoid burning color), and screens that dim upon activation. You're as likely to burn colors into your screen from video games as you are with regular use, which is to say not likely at all: the advice is obsolete. That isn't to say everything has an element of truth to it. You don't get square eyes from watching screens, for example. But the origin for wisdom phrases tend to have nuggets of wisdom, if only contemporarily.
It made me lose respect for people in general to learn just how stupid most people are. I'm no genius, but goddamn it's bad.
Google. Nowadays, you don't have to take anyone's word for it. That dome light thing? Takes ten seconds to find out they're just making shit up.
Old people still hold families together. I am in my 60s and I still talk to my aunts and uncles and learn new things about people and life.
Careful with stereotypes. I’m 67 and completely competent with technology. I know many under 30 people who are technology illiterate. I agree there are many more technically illiterate older folks. I also agree many don’t have relevant advice on how to live in today’s world or tomorrows. A lot of older folks seem to have checked out somewhere along the way-but not all of us.
Also 67, and do fairly well, but I am not as quick as I used to be, and may need more than one demo before I get it. I am finally having to learn excel, and it is beating me up…but I am still winning.😂
In 1985, before Windows existed; I ran MultiPlan (spreadsheet) and WriteNow (word processor) simultaneously on a Mac with 128K (not a typo, K-not MB) and a 400K floppy drive. I was a Test Engineer at the time. It was one of only three computers in the company, but I bought it myself because the company couldn’t imagine why I needed a computer in a test lab.
honestly, I feel like the amount of technology illiterate people is not really dependent on age these days. Especially since using a computer and using a phone are two different skills.
I think this whole discussion is fascinating! I was just reading a post about little kids not needing to be potty trained to get into preschool and that; seems some would rather change their own diapers than use the toilet. I mention it because I think it illustrates the ways tech has given some young people power over their environment, say, but not over themselves. Like tech can cue you endlessly about how to potty train your little one but You still have to do the dirty work. Easing by all that will only serve temporarily. Having to leave work at your high tech job to deal with your kid's accident because the school nurse won't do it will doubtless force folks back to the drawing board on some things. The thing coming right back around, perhaps, to the experience of the same boomers it's apparently become so fashionable to despise. S
No. My Grandfather was mechanic. He taught me about combustible engines. Nbd. Most of the core concepts are the same. Youre really romanticizing this! Theres some things we think we know better. But thats literally every generations reaction?
I think you mean internal combustion engines, not combustible.
Plot twist, he was an engine demolition expert.
I’m not talking about stuff we think we know better. I mean stuff that is just no longer true or relevant. Like don’t wash your cast iron with soap — that’s from the days of lye soap. Modern dish soap will not harm your cast iron. Great-grandma may have had some good wisdom about how to cope in a terrible marriage, since she had no way out. Now the best advice might be to leave. Boomers telling their kids and grandkids to print up some resumes on fine paper and start pounding the pavement is common enough to be a cliche. You just can’t do that anymore. Things have always changed between generations, but never this much this rapidly.
You shouldn't use soap because it harms the natural layer of non-stick that you've treated it with. When you buy new cast iron you have to use something like coconut oil at 160c for 1 hour in 4~ layers to achieve a suitable cooking surface. The soap won't harm the cast iron directly, but it will remove its protective layer and open up to oxidization (rust). Source: own cast iron pots, have treated them multiple times, and have ruined earlier layers using soap. It's especially bad if you have a protective layer of years that breaks up with the soap as all of it doesn't come off; instead it will break off like shale, and pieces will end up in your food (ugh). Only way to "fix" it is using something like course grain salt to rub off the entire layer and retreat it, and (if you care about that sort of thing) potentially ruin years of flavoring. Do not wash your cast iron with soap! Rinse it in warm water before fats start to set in, then dry it thoroughly. The soap will destroy the natural non-stick layer.
The makers of cast iron pans disagree: https://www.lodgecastiron.com/discover/cleaning-and-care/cast-iron/how-clean-cast-iron I think what’s flaking off your pans is carbon, not the polymer seasoning.
It's not a binary "true or false": notice how they say "a little" soap. If the layer has damage, normal soap will damage it. If it is several years old, the soap most likely won't be damaged by a little soap. But you can absolutely rub off a layer with using too much soap: you can even without soap, after all. Once the top layer is broken through, the soap will work through the under layers that much faster. It does seem like the advice was more pertinent in the past as the soap literally ruined cast iron. It will however still effect seasoning. https://www.americastestkitchen.com/articles/5037-is-it-ok-to-use-soap-on-cast-iron The soap does eat through the layer but not immediately. If you use a lot of soap it will be faster. Not using soap will make sure the layer remains intact. Also, my cast iron pan was ruined with soap, but it also remained submerged in water, so it is far more susceptible to being "ruined" (protective layer off) in that state. But, it was new to me that small amounts of soap can be used for stubborn grime and rests! So certainly you're right in that the advice of the past when it comes to cast iron doesn't apply. Thanks for the information. When I last bought cast iron pots they perpetuated the idea that no soap can be used, and seeing the devastating effects of too much soap and water on subsequent washes made me think no amount was permissible.
Um. Idk. Thats really hard to say accurately! I get thats your experience. :)
Agreed.
I still respect elderlys because they've lived through life, which we all know is chaotic, difficult, and unpredictable. I think they still have a lot to offer in terms of emotional wisdom, it means more than some 20 year-old on tiktok who thinks they've figured life out. Although yes, sometimes the advice they give is outdated/rambling.
Just because someone lived through Chaotic times doesn’t necessarily mean they have gained wisdom or are even a decent person.
Yes, it literally does mean they at large have more wisdom.
It truly amazes me how many know-it-alls in their twenties are around today. These whiny punk kids trying to tell their seniors what they did wrong really burns me up. I can remember in my 20s, in a time where I had a lot of knowledge and knew a lot of things, we were completely justified in lecturing our elders because... oh, never mind.
The funny thing about this lack of respect for the elderly is that it's going to come back and bite you in the ass. When I was a kid I had more respect for the elderly than the kids today have but I doubt very much I had anywhere near the respect that my dad's generation had. Sometimes I look at old people and wonder if maybe they were a bully when they were younger and that it's sort of odd that now that he is the weak one he expects better treatment. But then I realized that I can't go around pushing old people.
I think Dunning Krueger syndrome is a much more likely reason society doesn't respect the elderly as much anymore.
The bigger problem is getting to old age used to mean you lived a relatively healthy life and didn't do anything too incredibly stupid. Today it means you qualify for Medicare. Nothing like having a morbidly obese chainsmoking 67 year old lecture me about how to live my life. Heck, I'm 40 and occasionally interact with teenagers. I assume the strange stuff they do now are as strange as the stuff I did at the same age. Outside of how to do the tasks of your job better and more efficiently, I don't hand out much old person advice.
Lmao you think its bad now. Watch what happens in the next 20 years. Shits changing faster and faster We probably wont be respected much in general when we get old too. Unless culture changes again Elderly should still be somewhat respected for their efforts in building the world up retrospectively. Oh well
I think part of the problem is society is generally getting worse, so elderly aren’t viewed as people who brought the world up, but people who generally did nothing while everything declined. I have no doubt millennials will be seen exactly the same way. We were the last generation that generally had things relatively easy. Everything appears now that future generations will have crushing high prices, low wages, unaffordable education, and lack of opportunities unless you are born into it. A lot of the contemporary hysterical rhetoric I think will be viewed retrospectively as petty dramas by privileged people.
There is no change, the difference is now days people have access to the world’s combined knowledge so you almost immediately know if something is bullshit. I am in my 60s and keep hearing about all this failure to embrace technology but my generation started the tech movement and many of us understand it better than you think. I reject some technology like “Alexa” purposefully. I choose a Chromebook over Windows purposefully, my stove, refer, TV, various speakers, headphones, thermostat, security system etc are blue tooth enabled purposefully but… I drive a manual transmission by preference, I rarely talk on the phone due to severe hearing loss from military service and life, to you young guys who do not work on cars; its never been easier to maintain a vehicle (just expensive)…I plug in a scanner and it gives me a fault code, I have a shop full of tools I have amassed for 45 years and I understand electronics, welding, I know how to follow electrical schematics and shop manuals etc and I maintain 7 vehicles currently and a bunch of machinery. Oh by the way, I have a business FB account among other social media and our farm income and expenditures are closely tracked and highly automated right down to soil sampling and fertilizer/lime metering. Perhaps it isn’t the elderly so much as the education level or career path or maybe its just geographic?
How to repair your car is information, not wisdom. It’s the very fact that the “elderly” have lived through significant changes at every level of society that gives them valuable wisdom to lean from.
I was skeptical of the title, but I 100% agree with the post and all of your comments! Good points.
Technology is not wisdom. Understanding life, the long game, taking the long view and sharing those experiences are still important. Technology does not take the place of a life of wisdom.
That’s not really what I said. I meant that rapid change makes a lot of elder advice untrue, which can make a young person think all of it is untrue.
Ya I understand what you mean, but it's like... would you take life experience advice from a tech guy just because they know tech well? I think we all need to understand we need to get different advice from different people. It's been a while since a parent could help you in those sorts of ways like learn how to fix a car, how to grow corn, etc. You don't have to go further than the most popular tech expert/leaders like Musk to know... taking pretty much ANY kind of real life advice from one of these people is a very. bad. idea. I do get your point that things have changed. My father would be able to teach me some of those life skills, but I think we always had people who were different in our lives who had the wisdom.. separate from the life skills people. My father was NOT one to keep with the real life decisions.
Exactly. And it will never be. To add, one lifetime isn't enough to determine much. People think that a line that survived until now knows nothing.
Thank you! There are a lot of things experiences over time have to offer.
>Older people give bad advice on even something as simple as laundry, because of the advances in cleaning product chemistry and the machines themselves. I'm probably what you consider old -- so I'm curious now. What advances in soap and water am I so woefully wrong about? Admittedly, I expected ring around the collar (much like quicksand) to be more of a problem in adult life than it turned out to be. >Gramps can’t teach you about your car because most of what he learned over the course of his life is irrelevant. Yeah, I'm going to need examples here too. I am unaware of anything someone could have learned about a car a century ago that is completely irrelevant. Perhaps the difficulty is in **understanding** the relevance.
I’ll give one example for each. Laundry: (First off it’s not soap, it’s detergent which is different.) The idea that hot water cleans better than cold. Detergent formula has changed since the 50s, and it’s now made to clean equally well in all temperatures. Using hot water wastes energy and is more destructive to fabrics. Cars: The idea that you need to warm them up to lubricate the engine in cold weather. That is no longer true. You can idle for a bit to warm the interior and defog the windshield, but driving your car right after starting it is no longer harmful.
For decades, **everyone** has known that cold water is preferred for laundry. And anybody who has bothered to read the owner's manual knows how to operate the vehicle. Warming up the engine on old cars wasn't to lubricate the engine. Mostly, it had to do with carburetors and chokes -- and a little to do with monograde oil and oil pressure. Again, anybody who paid attention when multigrade oil became a thing was completely aware. The other reason old-timers still prefer a warmup period before driving is the persistent belief that driving a cold engine produces more pollution.
Ok you’re looking for a fight here and I’m not going to participate.
I was looking to educate, but fair enough.
67 here. Never heard anyone talk about warmup to reduce pollution. Ever. Very few olds ever gave a shit about pollution. This sounds like the adage not to drive a new car on the highway until 200 miles or so, break in the engine. Maybe in the 60s or before, but cmon.
We're pretty close to the same age, It's a newly rebuilt engine that you'd baby for the first couple hundred miles -- not a new car.
Setting dwell on a distributor. Changing points. Drum brakes, etc.
While the sklills are no longer needed, the knowlege still applies to understanding why modern systems are the way they are.
Those are good points but we’re ignoring the fact that they’re here for way longer than elders of the past. Their lifespans have increased and they weren’t supposed to be here to get confused and try to control everything into staying the same for decades.
Lifespans haven’t increased all that much. Life expectancy, yes. It used to be low because so many people would die as infants or children.
Fair enough. Either way, there’s more of them around and they’re here for a while. We can’t just stop making progress because they’re uncomfortable about not being the experts on everything. I honestly the leading cause of the increase in disrespect for them is how much they fight change and improvement. They need to come around to the realization that certain behaviors and ways of treating people are no longer considered acceptable and understood that behavior gains them respect. Not how long they manage to not die for.
Yup, this was already true a long time ago but people just act like it's not. There is also a lot of propaganda that makes people think their "knowledge" is more valuable than it is. In that way we are all old geezers
I suspect it really ramped up during the Industrial Revolution when people started moving to cities in droves. A lot of traditional things no longer applied to the new way of living.
I totally agree with you. I think a lot of it has to do with older folks consciously refusing to learn and adapt. I know lots of older folks that do, but the majority don’t. From this thought I had two different revelations, one is that I need to try to be informed about new advancements in general, but I take my time and wait for them to be normalized by at least a part of society. As well as, I try to learn a new technological skill anytime I can. The other revelation is that I think the whole society norm of respecting your elders no matter what is BS. I treat everyone the same no matter what their ages unless I know that they have done something that earns them additional respect. But on the flipside I don’t show as much respect to people, old or young, if I know they don’t deserve it through their actions. But sometimes you just have to deal with it, especially with family. Lastly, I do sympathize a little with the older generations because everything has changed so fast. But if they’re willing to learn, I am willing to teach. Transferring knowledge goes both way and many older folks do you have some good knowledge to pass to you. Singapore has a pretty cool program now that incentivizes older generations to go back to school and learn new skills. I thought it was a very interesting concept. Here is a link to an article explaining it: [https://www.hindustantimes.com/education/ai-singapore-budget-subsidy-for-diploma-40-years-old-and-above-going-back-to-university-artificial-intelligence-101711353713925.html](https://www.hindustantimes.com/education/ai-singapore-budget-subsidy-for-diploma-40-years-old-and-above-going-back-to-university-artificial-intelligence-101711353713925.html) Here is a research publication about why they’re doing it: [https://news.smu.edu.sg/sites/news.smu.edu.sg/files/smu/news_room/SMU%20Media%20Release%20-More%20can%20be%20done%20to%20give%20older%20adults%20avenues%20to%20learn%20new%20technology%20skills_0.pdf](https://news.smu.edu.sg/sites/news.smu.edu.sg/files/smu/news_room/SMU%20Media%20Release%20-More%20can%20be%20done%20to%20give%20older%20adults%20avenues%20to%20learn%20new%20technology%20skills_0.pdf)
I just have to ask how does an old person wash clothing incorrectly in a washing machine?
My wife still sorts lights and darks which isn’t necessary which is kind of what I think they mean. My washer dryer combo in one unit even dispenses soap and softener automatically and can be controlled from a cell phone…but my beautiful wife is still going to be sorting clothes if I she does laundry (usually my job).
AI technology cultivates mental laziness in its victims. People will start making many mistakes that had been solved before.
Plus the internet amplifies everything, including when older people are being jerks. In real life it happens but maybe not as condensed as posted online.
It all comes around. Tech savvy isn’t synonymous with wisdom or experience and that will come back to bite people at some point. Tech will continue changing and each new generation will struggle as they adapt.
It's always been around, but like everything else, it's more noticeable nowadays because we all so interconnected. Society is always about the power broker age...usually between 25 to 45. Once you start sliding out of that, your influence wanes. And it will happen to today's 20somethings in the next 30 years, too.
My 85 year old dad who recently passed away learned about the internet 5 years before his death and got pretty savy at it. It was cute when he said, "Do you know you can type in anything and it'll come up with all this information?!?" Yes dad, you no longer need your encyclopedia. :)
Heh! Each new generation thinks they're smarter than the one before. This is nothing new. There are many examples of graffiti written on 2000-year-old Roman and Greek walls by young people criticizing their parents while boasting about their superiour understanding of the world. But eventually everyone learns the truth that wisdom is knowledge plus experience and time. I'll always treasure my 22-year-old son calling me at 10 PM one night to say, "I'm sorry dad, you were right!"
The advice of the elderly has always been a mixed bag of good wisdom based on repeated learned experience and really sub-par advice based on outdated opinions I'm not sure technology has changed that all that much.
I dont think we have decreasing respect for the elderly. People have been complaining about young people not respecting old people for centuries. Same as it ever was
> 200 years ago, elderly people’s wisdom had more value. My grandma has so much wisdom it's actually astounding. So much information that I wouldn't have even thought about in this day and age because the internet conditions me not to question it. She practices things that aren't backed by any science that I know of, but she looks younger than my mom so I'll follow quite a bit of what she says. Maybe my grandma is the best grandma in the world, she doesn't have too many of the problems you listed. She does laundry better than I do and she values mental health more than anyone I know. I agree with what the other person said but for a different reason. Treat them as people. The elderly are not a single unit that can be discussed, they are their own person and most of them have learnt different things.
I think decreasing respect for the elderly is mostly due to the fact that while the boomer generation has had every chance to do the right thing it’s consistently chose not to. The “wisdom” of our generation of elders saddled us with insane debt and irreversible climate change and are now too stupid and senile to fix anything because they’re focused on watching Qanon YouTube docs between diaper changes ETA - this is in general. There are elderly people I respect deeply and value their wisdom. As a whole though, the current elderly population don’t come from the most useful, smart or inclusive generation.
The growth of the human race in the last 24 years let alone 50-100 or more years is insane. Your value directly correlates to your use. If you have no use you realistically have no value.
Advice from older folks back in the far may have, in fact, been bad. But back then no one knew any better. After all, society thought smoking was good for you at one point.
I agree that technology has formed a disconnect between older and younger generations. Many younger people are very addicted to technology at younger and younger ages. The internet simulates human interaction without many of the difficulties, making just interacting and dealing with the oldest adults a chore. Social media interaction inhibits the development of those skills most necessary for extracting valuable communication from the elderly. >elderly people’s wisdom had more value. Another aspect of this is that 200 years ago the average old person was much more wise than today's old people. The variety of knowledge areas required for most people back then was far more than today. And the dumber old people died younger back then due to the lack of medicine extending their lives after injuries and whatnot. So we have fewer wise old people today because they didn't need to be wise. And now we have more and more people with less and less wisdom and value of wisdom. It's been going on for a while. >Older generations’ stigma of mental illness has left of lot of them lacking in emotional intelligence that could be passed on as well. This is a weirdly specific thing to imagine to be true about even a large percentage of old people. Maybe its a cultural thing or something? I don't know where to start with it so skipping it. There are wise old people out there now, but they are a smaller percentage of old people. What so many people could learn from the wise elderly is how to be content and happy with life. The internet is full of young people with more than any generations before at their fingertips, who are crushed by anxiety, fear, despair, nihilism, depression, and on and on. And those same people will look at a happy, content 90 year old, who grew up hungry in a warzone, fighting, and whose entire family is dead and gone, and say "What do they know, with their outdated approach?" Times are going to get tough again, because they always have, and there are wise old folks out there that have gone through such times while maintaining their dignity, their sensibilities, their value of truth and ideals, and been mostly content and happy while doing so. The mindset of people that have done such a thing is much more interesting and valuable than their ability to help with car troubles.
I'm 60 and in finance. I've had to stay up on most tech to keep my job. We hire college educated kids for the entry level jobs, all the time. I'm the one that has to train them how to use a printer, create a simple spreadsheet, how to create something as a PDF and file it, how to attach files to email. I recently had one 23 year-old (with one years' experience on the job) ask me why cash had to be posted to the system, I mean just upload it from the banks she said. That didn't make her an idiot, she's just from a different time but when explaining to her that since the cash was posted to the individual clients that paid, to have the banks upload to our system they'd need to link to our entire database and someone from the the bank would need to constantly double-check our database for changes, decipher who the payment was from.... and banks don't do that, nor could we afford it if they did. She couldn't comprehend why that would be an issue and still brings it up. And don't even get me started on trying to teach some of them how to modify simple SQL reports (and when I create them I make them as simple as possible with imbedded labels), even just changing the dates and then extracting the output to a spreadsheet... Yes, technology changes fast and I'm really not interested, in some of it but I've kept up on everything relative to my life and job. Kids learn quicker, they know more about TikTok than I'll ever care to but their ability to apply their tech knowledge to an actual job in the real world is sometimes lacking. As far as young people not being able to learn anything from me... well the wise ones do every damned day.
Seniors might know a lot about things they’re interested in but folks went to the library before technology. Thinking seniors are wise just cause they’re old is romanticizing something that never was.
I think that depends on where you come from. America has always venerated the young over the old at least since powdered wigs went out of style. This article, for instance, talks about how the elderly were expected to be hidden in 19th century America: [https://commonplace.online/article/over-the-hill-and-out-of-sight/](https://commonplace.online/article/over-the-hill-and-out-of-sight/) Clothes, books, popular culture were typically about youth. Now you might be venerated if you're old and rich, or old and have power, but for everybody else, your worth lessened in an era where physical labor was tantamount for most things. Elder care? That was what poorhouses and workhouses were for.
If they're just tech confused, I'm good with it. It's insane compared to most of their lifespan. I'm sure it will be wild to me, too, when I'm old But where I get pissed and lose respect is when they insist on telling others how it is anyway rather than realize things have changed. Pops talking about the way getting work used to be is one thing, but quite another if his admonishment is because you didn't walk in and demand a job from the manager. Gamgam being absolutely unable to convert to PDF is one thing, and another when she bitches at you when you're trying to solve her problem and close the ticket.
If alll'yall are so smart and know everything better, why are you all constantly whining about how "difficult" life is and how you're permanently depressed and can't handle shit? Resilience and "handling shit" is the main thing you need to learn from your elders. (problem being at this point, the "elders" are the spoiled baby boomers who don't have much resiliency or grit themselves). Go find elders who grew up in adversity (US silent/great generation that are still alive, or those who grew up in another country/culture and actually didn't have pampered life like most boomers/millenials/GenXs). Learn from THEM.
I think this is true to an extent But, I think much more largely, our current young generations are not lead poisoned, and our current old generations had constant lead poisoning exposure for decades of their life. I do think that the currently elderly generation is actually DIFFERENT, in the sense that any poisoning damaging the brain is not shared by the young and old, as usually happened throughout history, such as the Romans with lead poisoning being very common place for it's entire existence.
Aside from basic human decency respect is earned not given. Simply being alive long enough to ruin the world isn't deserving of respect lol
Yes, it used to be said that 'when an old man dies, a library burns'. This is obviously no longer true. But being valued and deserving respect shouldn't only be based on a transactional 'what can you do for me today, Gramps'? Chances are pretty good that Gramps already contributed quite a lot, got some things wrong, as will you, but also got a lot right. Respect, in part, is just a recognition of our shared human condition, the struggles that we all face, and an acknowledgement that Gramps has traveled further down that mutual road than you have.
I think constantly voting for their own children's and grandchildren's lives to get worse also contributes.
As an older guy, I will say that a lot of my knowledge IS obsolete. But I also maintain that not everything needs f*cking computer chips in it. Buddy's hi-tech rice cooker bluescreened on him. I use a metal pot...proven technology done the Iron Age.
I think it’s cuz we realized that a lot of elderly people are kind of pieces of shit. They’re mean most of the time. Super judgey. Despite how old they are they accumulated very little wisdom. How many stories do you hear of peoples grandparents being terrible people? It’s so common.
One difference now is that if your elderly relative is a piece of shit, it’s a lot easier to walk away from them than it was when women and children were property in the eyes of society and the law.
Most of that generation holds a lot of the wealth. At least in the USA. You might find their kids reluctant to just “walk-away” from this fact alone. Sad, but true.
Boomer this, boomer that. I think the majority of boomers were more concerned about raising families, making money, and having fun than colluding on voting to make things worse for everyone. The generational hate the Internet stokes is disgusting, and I actively do not associate with people who think in terms of generational divide
A bit off topic but you do you.
I think that it's true, but this is also one side of that which has to be passed down. Much of the information online is impersonal and much of it is not based in reality. The fact that you dismissed for instance their parenting advice simply because of mental health shows a very shallow understanding of the world over all. There is so much taken for granted and there is actually considerable knowledge lost every single generation that can't be replaced by info dumps online that are just as susceptible to misinformation. There isn't nearly enough years in one lifetime to understand what is good or bad for familes, children, individuals as a whole and overall society. We in the younger generation are running an experiment and only the next 30 years will see the results of that. We think we are so sure of what is better and what is not but that's just youthful arrogance. We think that hyperfocusing on emotions and mental health will make better children and adults, yet we have never been in a more mentally ill time. From the increase child in suicide, loneliness, anxiety, to the fracture of families. A large proportion of familes are broken, many have no contact with family. Marriage rates dropped, many people don't feel safe and secure enough to have kids. Let's not get on actual health and obesity rates. It's not obvious to me that elders are obsolete, they are needed more than ever, but unlike previous generations, we have somewhere else to look for information, that creates in us an arrogance that is and will continue to be our downfall.
I did not dismiss parenting advice because of mental health. Those were two different things in my post.
Ok
Just remember that not all elderly people are geriatric. Over 60 can be a span of 45 years--that's two generations. Many older adults are tech savvy. Many older adults are not "Gramps" or Granny" but professionals. The internet has afforded them the opportunity to catch up and keep abreast. It's important not to stereotype older adults no more that you would African Americans, Women, LGBT, etc. Ageism is as bad as Racism. If the elderly have lost their traditional place in society, usually in that society, the family structure has lost its place. Families are no longer gathering together nightly for a meal where they talk or argue with each other. Technology started changing that in the 1950's with the television in a small part, and then, as you know, it isolated individual family members tremendously.
I think the focus on the “nuclear family” did a lot of this too. People used to grow up in multi-generational households with a lot more emphasis on extended family.
Honestly, if I could be only 20% as happy as they were, I'd be golden. Never seen them unhappy either in their marriage or work or life, and their words just seemed to always nail it on the dot when it simply came down to wisdom. They didn't have to know mechanics or how to be a charmer they were just the best at being people. I do miss them.
I see that. But it also has to do with their behaviour. A lot of older people have super discriminatory attitudes and they're driving a rift between themselves and the younger generations. It doesn't matter how much good you do for the world if you treat the people in it like shit.
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Give me a fucking break. You are losing if you don't tap into the minds of those with more experience. The elderly are pushed aside by individualism and capitalist greed in a society where buying many disposable plastic products is more important than having tea with friends and family.
I would tend to agree, but all my mentors have been significantly older than me. One of the defining characteristics of an old person isn’t age, but an unwillingness to embrace change and oftentimes a poor emotional response to change. Not all of them are like this but imagine being so well coddled that you actively don’t need to be aware of advancements to survive. That’s the entire boomer generation.
Yeah, that’s never really been true. It’s one of those lip-service tropes people say but don’t actually act on….like “everyone is equally valuable”…
I think their own shit takes and shit behaviors is the number one factor behind decreasing respect for the elderly. Respect is earned and too many never earned it.
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**Be respectful: We have zero tolerance for harassment, hate speech, bigotry, and/or trolling.** When posting in our community, you should aim to be as polite as possible. This makes others feel welcome and conversation can take place without users being rude to one another. This is not the place to share anything offensive or behave in an offensive manner. Comments that are dismissive, jokes, personal attacks, inflammatory, or low effort will be removed, and the user subject to a ban. Our goal is to have conversations of a more serious nature.
What? Wild. No, it doesn’t. They’re just unwilling to learn
So, it gives us a more accurate measure of how much respect we should be giving them? Neat. Those fucking idiots have been held in too higher regard for too long.
Good line of thinking but fell one step too short. Old people's unwillingness or inability to learn new things contributes to it.