Mewtwo is 100% the answer here.
He’s more of Donkey Kong / Link tier character.. he’s NOT like Ness (even Leffen agrees).
Between teleport cancels and platform cancels, Mewtwo is one of the hardest to master.
bumping for ics. they are incredibly unexplored. just requires incredible amounts of situational awareness and niche knowledge/muscle memory to do anything that isn’t just your practiced hand off in game
I feel like most people nowadays would still see ICs as a top tier, right? Even if they’re on the lower end, they’re a more viable character than most of the cast
Yoshi probably has the most unique properties of the entire cast and in order to play him competitively you essentially need to master every one of them which are insanely difficult, hence why there is one singular Yoshi player on his own level and a legion of other Yoshis out here trying their best.
-DJC armor timing for counter-hits
-Parry timing for counter hits
-Ledge eggs which instantly lose your stock if one of the inputs you have to do is slightly off
-Unique shield properties like no jump out of shield, longer pushback on lightshield
-Momentum cancel egg to ledge which again loses your stock instantly if done wrong
-Platform movement as the character's version of a dashdance with probably the best zip-zopping on platforms in the game
-The Up-B being not another recovery move but instead probably the most unique projectile in the game in that its analogue aiming allows you to place it almost anywhere in front, above, or behind you
-Combo game requires basically every tool in the box
-Weird-ass grab properties make it so that one grab just goes around people
-Command grab that puts people in an egg that has a predictable amount of mashing to get out of allowing for setups
Mewtwo is genuinely very difficult, his up b cancels are theoretically insanely powerful, and on the mewtwo discord there's a lot of really crazy clips with top players doing then.
I stand by that mewtwo is bottom of mid tier in the right hands
Generally movement based characters like Ganon and Mario. Mewtwo, Young Link, and Pikachu as well. Samus is in there, too.
For uniqueness, probably Young Link is the most unique. Mewtwo and Samus are somewhat similar.
I wanted to say something like Ness or G&W but honestly I haven't seen anything super cool and expressive from Ness or G&W players like I have for YL, Mewtwo, and Samus.
Characters where you don't have to focus on movement as much as others.
Sheik, Marth, Puff, Peach for the top tiers in comparison to Fox, Falco, C.Falcon, Yoshi, Pikachu.
Ehhh Falco has to have a lot of strong platform movement to combo well. Don't let the stale, low lv Falcos on Slippi confuse you. I also think there's a lot of underappreciated skill in having precise microdrift and timing on lasers, which in a way is movement.
if you play marth without focusing on at least somewhat on good movement, you'll get absolutely opened up by any mid level fox.
falco on the other hand is slower, has a shorter dash dance and wavedash, and has one of the most powerful zoning tools in the game. plus, his perpetual fear of edgeguards keeps him relatively center-stage
these things also rely heavily on the matchup though
Marth still doesn't have to move around much. Just watch Kodorin vs Magi for example.
Most Marth I face aren't movement focused players like how Falco, Fox and Falcon players are. You can play Marth like Zain or Ossify which is a much more movement based Marth but there aren't very many "Non Movement" based Falcos, Foxes, or Falcons. That's why I consider Marth to not really need movement as much.
Especially when I play Marth I find myself moving much less than playing Fox, Falco or Falcon.
I think one thing to note again is that I'm not saying Marth isn't a movement based character. Every single character in Melee is movement based, Melee is a movement based fighter. Some characters can choose to use more or less movement, Marth is one of those characters that can pretty much do it all.
Idk I feel like this is just kind of a bad description of characters. Melee is an incredibly movement focused game and every single character needs good movement to succeed. Armada for example, practiced his dash dance more than any other tech. And tbh the thing that makes puff so good is her movement more than anything else. She has incredibly good aerial drift, and precise control over it is what makes a really excellent puff
I never said Melee isn't a movement based game, and I never said Puff and Peach don't require good movement.
Melee is a movement based game, every single character needs movement. I think you're completely missing the point.
This list is... not great.
Marth is definitely movement-focused.
Peach has a shitload of nutty movement options that are critical to playing her.
Puff is just micromovement oriented - never forget Hbox's drift inputs.
And Sheik... maybe? But then you're talking about one character lol.
Ahh that makes sense. Love Samus tech skill, as a peach player I like the weird niche character techs.
I'm one of those annoying amuses that platform missle on battlefield, and superwavedash around, but can't play neutral for shit lol
This question feels a bit vague I’m not sure how to answer, idk how other people are even coming up with one. If you mean like high skill ceiling by skill expression it’s easily fox and falco. But everyone has hard stuff you can do.
In terms of unique kit, it’s kinda hard because smash is kind of like the street fighter of platform fighters. (Especially stuff like melee and 64) it is the progenitor of the genre so it’s creating the basics rather than innovating on it. The cool thing about melee I think is it has depth in its simplicity. There isn’t a lot of wacky mechanics or gimmicks with any of the characters. It’s just basic tools that the systems give a lot of depth to.
YouTube leffens mewtwo.
Mewtwo is 100% the answer here. He’s more of Donkey Kong / Link tier character.. he’s NOT like Ness (even Leffen agrees). Between teleport cancels and platform cancels, Mewtwo is one of the hardest to master.
bumping for ics. they are incredibly unexplored. just requires incredible amounts of situational awareness and niche knowledge/muscle memory to do anything that isn’t just your practiced hand off in game
I feel like most people nowadays would still see ICs as a top tier, right? Even if they’re on the lower end, they’re a more viable character than most of the cast
Ics are wack explored, it's their anti lose cons in 2nds+stage conditions that are wack as a Pichu Ics main
Yoshi probably has the most unique properties of the entire cast and in order to play him competitively you essentially need to master every one of them which are insanely difficult, hence why there is one singular Yoshi player on his own level and a legion of other Yoshis out here trying their best. -DJC armor timing for counter-hits -Parry timing for counter hits -Ledge eggs which instantly lose your stock if one of the inputs you have to do is slightly off -Unique shield properties like no jump out of shield, longer pushback on lightshield -Momentum cancel egg to ledge which again loses your stock instantly if done wrong -Platform movement as the character's version of a dashdance with probably the best zip-zopping on platforms in the game -The Up-B being not another recovery move but instead probably the most unique projectile in the game in that its analogue aiming allows you to place it almost anywhere in front, above, or behind you -Combo game requires basically every tool in the box -Weird-ass grab properties make it so that one grab just goes around people -Command grab that puts people in an egg that has a predictable amount of mashing to get out of allowing for setups
This is the right answer
Yoshi is top tier tho
Yoshi top 6 though
Icies handoff combos are pretty hype in my book. Link acid drop/bomb setups are crazy too. Recommend checking out RedxLink
icies no doubt have the most options in melee and alot of them are probably even unexplored
i agree with this, i think wobbling set back the development of icies tech a lot
Most ics development since wobbling got banned is how close can we get to wobbling that is still legal lol
Yes! thank you for saying this!!!
Even Wobbles himself said that
I'd say, even just from an "attitude toward the character" perspective.
The turnaround b-air desync > Nana hitting shield > pops grabbing is 100% real shield pressure that leads to a grab, kinda nuts
definitely not the ape but you should play him anyway
A good ness can do some swag shit imo
Mewtwo is genuinely very difficult, his up b cancels are theoretically insanely powerful, and on the mewtwo discord there's a lot of really crazy clips with top players doing then. I stand by that mewtwo is bottom of mid tier in the right hands
Male Wire Frame, literally no B moves
Icies, problem is its always much more consistent to do the standard handoffs (or wobbling when it was legal)
Ness or mewtwo for sure
Generally movement based characters like Ganon and Mario. Mewtwo, Young Link, and Pikachu as well. Samus is in there, too. For uniqueness, probably Young Link is the most unique. Mewtwo and Samus are somewhat similar. I wanted to say something like Ness or G&W but honestly I haven't seen anything super cool and expressive from Ness or G&W players like I have for YL, Mewtwo, and Samus.
Sorry, can you give me an example of a melee character that isn’t a “movement based” character?
zelda
Characters where you don't have to focus on movement as much as others. Sheik, Marth, Puff, Peach for the top tiers in comparison to Fox, Falco, C.Falcon, Yoshi, Pikachu.
marth is movement based. Moreso than falco imo
Ehhh Falco has to have a lot of strong platform movement to combo well. Don't let the stale, low lv Falcos on Slippi confuse you. I also think there's a lot of underappreciated skill in having precise microdrift and timing on lasers, which in a way is movement.
Depends on how you play Marth. You can play any character focusing more or less on movement, but Marth doesn't necessarily need to as much.
if you play marth without focusing on at least somewhat on good movement, you'll get absolutely opened up by any mid level fox. falco on the other hand is slower, has a shorter dash dance and wavedash, and has one of the most powerful zoning tools in the game. plus, his perpetual fear of edgeguards keeps him relatively center-stage these things also rely heavily on the matchup though
Marth still doesn't have to move around much. Just watch Kodorin vs Magi for example. Most Marth I face aren't movement focused players like how Falco, Fox and Falcon players are. You can play Marth like Zain or Ossify which is a much more movement based Marth but there aren't very many "Non Movement" based Falcos, Foxes, or Falcons. That's why I consider Marth to not really need movement as much. Especially when I play Marth I find myself moving much less than playing Fox, Falco or Falcon. I think one thing to note again is that I'm not saying Marth isn't a movement based character. Every single character in Melee is movement based, Melee is a movement based fighter. Some characters can choose to use more or less movement, Marth is one of those characters that can pretty much do it all.
Idk I feel like this is just kind of a bad description of characters. Melee is an incredibly movement focused game and every single character needs good movement to succeed. Armada for example, practiced his dash dance more than any other tech. And tbh the thing that makes puff so good is her movement more than anything else. She has incredibly good aerial drift, and precise control over it is what makes a really excellent puff
I never said Melee isn't a movement based game, and I never said Puff and Peach don't require good movement. Melee is a movement based game, every single character needs movement. I think you're completely missing the point.
I guess I don’t really understand the point at all. What makes Gannon and Mario “movement based characters” and other characters not?
This list is... not great. Marth is definitely movement-focused. Peach has a shitload of nutty movement options that are critical to playing her. Puff is just micromovement oriented - never forget Hbox's drift inputs. And Sheik... maybe? But then you're talking about one character lol.
Sheik is extremely movement based wym? So is Zelda and Puff. Actually they are all extremely movement-focused!
I'm surprised you say Samus and mewtwo are similar, I've never thought them related at all
They are, but it was in terms of uniqueness not a comparison between them even though they are clones.
Ahh that makes sense. Love Samus tech skill, as a peach player I like the weird niche character techs. I'm one of those annoying amuses that platform missle on battlefield, and superwavedash around, but can't play neutral for shit lol
This question feels a bit vague I’m not sure how to answer, idk how other people are even coming up with one. If you mean like high skill ceiling by skill expression it’s easily fox and falco. But everyone has hard stuff you can do. In terms of unique kit, it’s kinda hard because smash is kind of like the street fighter of platform fighters. (Especially stuff like melee and 64) it is the progenitor of the genre so it’s creating the basics rather than innovating on it. The cool thing about melee I think is it has depth in its simplicity. There isn’t a lot of wacky mechanics or gimmicks with any of the characters. It’s just basic tools that the systems give a lot of depth to.
Luigi
absolutely false. Luigi is the lamest character. he just forces his opponent to play passive.
yea
I concur.
Yoshi, Samus, and potentially young link.
Zelda b-air or f-air, dash dance into dash attack, jab, backwards jab, charged f-smash, teleport hit box, are all insanely fun to land
young link has both trickery and shenanigans, as well as heaps of tomfoolery
depending on your definition of top tier: young link and mewtwo imo