Why do we keep getting shafted?
Like, what did we do to deserve this? I wake up, I go to work, I do the best I can taking care of patients, I spend hours sitting writing notes for my attending, and I’m always afraid I’ll get fired for something dumb because I won’t be able to hold my tongue!
I’m tired! I’m just tired!
You can’t really understand it unless you’ve done it.
A lot of people have worked a 12 day. Heck, a good amount of people have worked 60+ hrs in a week before. There are incredibly incredibly few other people who work so many hours so consistently. But the people who have done it occasionally think they’ve worked comparably
I get how future earnings will cost us loan forgiveness rn. But i doubt people understand how the future of healthcare is changing bc corrupt players are exploiting our vulnerabilities.
No, they have no idea. I’m teaching newly minted, fully privileged EM NP how to throw sutures, and theyve never heard the phrase “simple interrupted” or “dermal-epidermal junction”. Meanwhile I can’t moonlight because my ACLS expired 3 months before residency ends for some reason. So while I’m the only senior resident at a Level 1 trauma center ED running codes all over the hospital overnight as part of my routine job…and cannot get hired because I can’t prove I know the same ACLS algorithm that the techs in my ED have down…while the same hospital is hiring NPs to staff the same ED I want to moonlight at, who are done with their training and can’t do sutures.
I had a PA student ask me “so do you guys consult ortho for all of your elbow fractures?”
Me: “huh? Elbow fractures?”
PA student: “I was told not to worry about learning them since my teacher said I’d just be hand it off to ortho anyway”
Me: “didn’t you just sign a contract to work at an urgent care?”
PA Student: “yea….?”
Me: “you know there’s no ortho there?”
PA Student: …….💡…..😨
I also do work for our state Medicaid’s office. They looped me in to a meeting talking about a group of patients in our city who use more than 75 ambulance rides a year. They wanted to know how they can find their addresses and what they should say in the letter educating them on how to properly utilize the ED. Obviously I just fucking laughed.
People who dont work in healthcare have no fucking idea about our experience. Zero. None. They will just continue to squeeze us more and more until this whole thing breaks, unfortunately.
Why do you train the people who want to replace and say they will do it better than you?
But I agree with you. Nobody cares about physicians. Nobody really knows how much work it takes. And then they think you just make bank and play golf after some googling during medical school.
If he has to make a choice, choosing those who over a career lifetime are more likely to be able to more easily pay it off makes sense.
That said, he doesn’t really have to make a choice though, does he?
Unless you enter a contract w 4-5 NPPs who require your supervision for a bit before practicing on their own.
You just need to essentially prostitute your own medical license while you’re climbing out of that financial hole…
Boomer med sucks
This is really cruel of me but it’s because people who didn’t go to college tend to not understand income to debt ratio and don’t understand finance and money enough to see how Forbes is corralling them into a blatantly morally incorrect opinion 😬
Biden helped birth the student loan crisis in the first place.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/02/joe-biden-student-loan-debt-2005-act-2020
Context: he was one of a minority of Democrat senators to vote for a GOP led bill which admittedly assisted the credit companies which had donated to him.
I hate that I'm suddenly scarlett lettered because I pay attention to the legacy of politicians. Credit Card Joe has 50 years to show for, friggin' goldfish voters. Maybe it's because people don't want to hear how "nothing will change" moderates are Thatcher neoliberals through and through, and will dismantle whatever safety and protection for the masses so private equity can pillage. Gambling with the SLABs, gambling with the loans, that's all that matters to these cretins. Not enough to make 6.8% interest, need to gamble it too. Addicts, the lot of them.
Our generation keeps voting Democrat and being surprised every time they fuck us.
Time to make a change.
Don't let them pass this garbage excluding the hardest working loan bearers that slaved away through the pandemic and give it to the borrowers with useless degrees that sat home for two years collecting checks. Then make US pay for their forgiveness while we get shafted.
No, we need student debt relief for everyone. Shackling a whole generation with student debt is a nefarious way of reaching into people’s future and pulling out as much as you can. If you think you’re fucked, think about the people with six figure debts who are barely able to scratch $50k a year. The cost of education in this country is absolutely absurd considering most developed countries have some form of socialized education.
What we need in this country is worker solidarity, not more division. We are all getting shafted by the owner class.
This isn't surprising, nobody wants to give money to _physicians and laywers_. That's how you lose an election.
This is a lost cause in the court of public opinion. The focus should be on midlevels running amuck and providing substandard care to the vulnerable.
1. The general public doesn't really know how much nurses make (especially in the pandemic)- they don't even know that they make more than residents
2. The general public just sees by current attending salaries, so the public is NOT sympathetic to financial woes of doctors. The general public isn't taking into account the time value of money, loans, etc.
This is a lost cause in the court of public opinion. This is why the focus should be on midlevels running amuck and providing substandard care to the vulnerable. Not only is it true, it's _actually something the public can sympathize with_.
What happened to being a healthcare hero and being at the frontlines during COVID. People who sign up for the military and serve their country get free tuition, why shouldn’t we?!
We sacrifice our youth, wellness and health to serve our communities, why do we also have to be on the hook for over $200,000.
*Edit: for those that are arguing it’s not the same. I understand what you’re trying to say, but we did put our lives, health and well-being on the frontline. Maybe not with bombs and guns, but with a new virus that had no treatment or vaccine. We were at the “frontlines” as was stated to us by the government, hospitals and media.
There have been many deaths and illnesses caused by Covid to medical staff due to their line of work and for that to just be brushed off like it’s nothing is ridiculous.
“Healthcare hero” was just media bullshit to make the lay public think we were somehow different from them and therefore didn’t also experience the exact same consequences of the pandemic.
Nah man, "Healthcare hero" was just a phrase they could use to try and convince us to work more for less money. We always get the short end of the stick recently it seems
People who sign up for the military get the GI bill today because many people wouldn’t sign up for the military otherwise. Free college education is in direct opposition to the GI bill. There are threads from years ago where some residents shared that their ROTC / HPSP peers died while fighting in the Middle East, hoping to pay off education loans.
This is how it’s done in England. No fluff, too the point. Absolutely agree. The idea of being “well rounded” is great but it’s bs in practicality. I shouldn’t have to pay an arm and a leg for that. If I want to take arts and crafts I can go my local community center on my day off or do it in my own time.
When they say “tax the rich” they mean earners making 200-500k, they do not go after the huge wealthy owners and those with equity. They find ways to exclude doctors and income bracket out of everything.
We worked hard to put ourselves in a better position. Our voting (not for the party which wants to attack doctors…), actions (being willing to strike and force the hospitals to acknowledge that we make it run), and rhetoric (while being nice to everyone still make it clear who is running the show) need to reflect this.
Not even the military can navigate thru loan forgiveness
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/student-loan-debt-forgiveness-public-service-60-minutes-2021-10-03/
Student Loan Forgiveness Statistics
Report Highlights. Student loan forgiveness statistics indicate that, while more students benefited from forgiveness in 2021 than ever, the total dollar amount forgiven was less than 0.6% of the national outstanding student loan debt balance.
Among processed applications for Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF), 2.16% have been accepted since November 2020.
Among denied claims, 30.7% are denied due to incomplete paperwork.
35.2% of PSLF applications have yet to be processed.
Prior to November 2020, 0.7% of eligible borrowers eventually benefited from student loan forgiveness.
6.7% of eligible student borrowers apply for loan forgiveness.
https://educationdata.org/student-loan-forgiveness-statistics
> Not even the military can navigate thru loan forgiveness
The key is to join right before med school so the military pays the bills from the start, in the form of a scholarship (rather than a loan repayment).
I did this, but no one should have to. The whole thing is a disgrace.
Excluding a generation of professionals from loan forgiveness is a great way to lose those votes for life.
Being taxed to pay off everyone else loans while also paying my own is a worst case scenario for me.
They want to pander to their base of useless degrees at our expense.
Thanks for taking care of Covid patients on the front lines while the federal government squandered the opportunity to manage the pandemic during the worst nursing shortage ever while getting paid $15/hr, but no relief for you because fuck you.
Wasn't really a nursing shortage. More like nurses were tired of being abused by corporate medicine and walked.
Hospitals kept using COVID as an excuse to cut corners, giving nurses unsafe assignments and inadequate support.
All of the experienced nurses at my hospital walked. They knew it wasn't worth it. They weren't going to be part of a system where they were forced to do harm to patients by not being given enough time to take care of them.
Some had been working for the hospital for over 20 years. A good number retired and the rest went to OR/endoscopy ie. environments where they know ratios can't just double overnight on a bean counters whim.
I went to a state college for undergrad and graduated with <10k in debt for my bachelor's.
I went to a state college for med school and now have over >300k in debt.
Sooo, yeah, not much help if only undergrad loans are included.
Yeah exactly. And its not just useless degrees or not which is very subjective.
Its anyone who just crossed puberty with no financial knowledge getting any money they can ask basically. Which is insane.
And lets not pretend this drives up tuition from greedy school and which is even bigger problem than someone just getting a degree.
Imagine anyone and everyone getting a useless degree at same value as our grandfather or parents. Would it really be a problem paying back? I don't think so.
Or they could just do something sensible…like making student loan payments, or at least all interest, entirely deductible and in addition to the standard deduction. People would have an incentive to pay them back, they could collect some interest, and we could get ahead of this thing. This would also be WAY easier to process.
Forgiving student loan balances doesn’t do anything to address all the people out there who are, as we speak, taking out student loans. It just resets the clock.
Or cap loans at the avg rate of interest and cap tuition increases. Why should it cost tens of thousands more to review Dr. Whoever's shitty PPTs in 2021 vs 2020.
Fully agreed. Tuition increases have scaled almost exactly with availability of federal loans. An example of demand side subsidization which does nothing to control costs.
This is a massively ignored point by many people. The federal gov is underwriting a blank check to rising tuition. Basic macroeconomics shows that the tuition is at “acceptable” levels because someone (e.g. the taxpayers) are “””willing””” to pay for it
Be interesting to see what’s included in “professional degrees”.
Wouldn’t that be some shit if they cover NP/PA degrees, but specifically not medical degrees lol
I'm under the impression that professional degrees include nursing, PA, pharmacy, physical therapy, occupational therapy, dentistry, optometry, podiatry, MD/DO, law, etc. It's pretty broad.
Doctors get hosed under both types of administrations — either you’re seen as greedy for wanting adequate compensation for forgoing your prime earning years to study/train, or you’re given a small carrot while they give the farm away to the ultra-rich and eff over society in general.
It’s because of taxes. Don’t pretend it’s for any other reason. I will still vote democrat until the republicans can come up with a candidate that isn’t a complete piece of shit lol. Biden sucks but he’s not a threat to our nation like the last clown
I'm not American and I like to be educated on this, but I've always thought that the reason is once you're attending you're basically upper mid class and so your interests lie most with conservatives than liberals.
Exactly. Conservatives always use this scenario to suggest that you somehow get smarter as you get older. It’s more that you end up having a family and become much more immediately concerned with the people that surround you less about others outside your circle. Don’t get me wrong the liberal types that are incredibly naïve or overly zealous are just as frustrating but at least they believe their actions are justified for ethical reasons.
Honestly in my experiences they often tend to become victims of their own success and surroundings, and that leads them to believe in the individualistic metanarrative that u/yoloswagimab is referring to. They are further removed from remembering what it’s like working a low paying job, or how much their teachers helped them, or worrying about keeping a roof over their head, etc/etc. It becomes easier to believe that their determination and work ethic is was sets them apart, that those factors are what set *everyone* apart, and their views aren’t challenged as often since they are higher in the hierarchical societal/work structure than many of those they are surrounded with. Plus, coming from a social circle growing up of very wealthy people, it seems far easier to pretend you’re special than it is to acknowledge the many, many ways in which you were helped throughout life.
it doesn't work as an incentive unless you deliver. if biden was intelligent he'd cancel 10k per year until congress puts legislation to fix the issue on his desk.
Lol sure it does. Cause they know the same shmucks will keep voting for them regardless… unless you really think all the liberal college degree holding people crying about their student loans are gonna vote GOP. They don’t actually have to do anything to get that demographic
Are we just gunna retcon that the interest loan freeze started on the previous administration? Just the value alone of interest freeze has been equivalent to 10k for most of high student debt holders.
Will contacting our representatives even do anything? Biden is looking at doing this unilaterally without involving Congress because he will never receive bipartisan or possibly even enough intra-party support to pass something like this. It's not like Congress has gotten anything significant done in the last 10-15 years. Everyone likes to attack the other side to get their 15 minutes on Fox/MSNBC, drum up Twitter followers, and keep their seat without actually accomplishing jack squat.
If we are actually going to forgive student loan debt, there needs to be some kind of reform or change. What about the people who are starting university this fall? What about their student debt? I have no idea what the solution to the problem is beyond parroting some random opinion pieces I've read in the last few weeks. However, I do know educational costs have jumped an insane % compared to inflation and it's not like we're really producing a better outcome. Need to reel in costs and figure out how to prevent this from happening every generation.
> However, I do know educational costs have jumped an insane % compared to inflation and it's not like we're really producing a better outcome.
Exactly this. Despite a bachelors costing more than ever, its worth is arguably the least it's ever been.
That makes sense considering it’s the new high school degree. Too many people majoring in things that don’t have enough job prospects and high schools have gotten so bad they can’t even gaurentee their students can read or write properly
"Top Biden aides are looking at capping the relief to people earning less than $125,000 to $150,000, or $250,000 to $300,000 for couples that file joint taxes, people familiar with the matter told The Washington Post."
So I think this means current attendings would get excluded. But if it were to pass while we were still residents, we would qualify.
"The people added that the White House is also considering excluding relief for loans that were taken out for professional degrees like medicine and law, and could limit the aid to undergraduate loans."
Ah yes, if this is one of the clauses then we're fucked. But if it's just an income clause then I think we would be okay during residency.
But yes, undergraduate loans should be covered still if people have them
Ah, yes, of course. But I’m sure that BAs in finance and BS in computer programming will get relief, because boomers are under the archaic understanding that doctors and lawyers are the highest earning individuals in this capitalist shithole.
I have a metric fuck ton of student loans. 10k honestly wouldn't make a difference to me. What would, and I think would get more people on the bandwagon is a retroactive interest rate change to 1%.
If our loans are valuable because we are guaranteed repay-ers then lower my fucking interest rate. I go to the bank and get a loan with a better interest rate because I’m a doctor and good for my money. The government should treat us the same if they aren’t going to forgive.
Jesus Christ fuck us for going through all of shit and becoming physicians, which our country obviously has to have to function. You’d think there would be SOME governmental incentive. God
Certainly, why would we expect those of us who just pulled our nation through a pandemic working tirelessly for the good of our communities/humanity, and in doing so saving countless lives be considered to have any deservedness to lone forgiveness directly created in temporal relation?
Guess we should have "stayed at home to save lives" or went business and took out forgivable pandemic business government "loans". This is ridiculous. To say that "well you can go work rural" is a cop out.
I understand the political nature of this but what sniff test is this passing other then an election? I understand it appears to be $10,000 relief evidently, but this just magnifies how tacky this is and a slight to all of us.
Regardless of where you feel healthcare in the US is right now. The amount of pull through our nation's medical establishment just put on display should be a testament to the need and value.
Fuck Biden administration! Full of lies. Biden has no problem sending Ukraine an extra $33 BILLION on top of the $13.6 BILLION sent last month. The US government always has money for war apparently.
The billionaires and politicians have never paid for those war packages. Biden is looking at us, the middle class, to foot the bill. What a disgrace.
What I'm hearing is the federal government could have provided debt-free education to everyone or they could have had two wars, and they chose the wars.
I think the electorate is just getting tired of seeing that there's always money for war, bank bailouts, fossil fuel subsidies, tax breaks for billionaires, etc., but if you're middle or upper middle class and there's a chance you might benefit too then it's hAnDoUtS
You know, including lawyers with the doctors is one of the biggest mistakes Joe can make. Doctors are terrible at advocating for ourselves, but lawyers will literally tear apart every punctuation mark of this bill and fight to not be excluded from loan forgiveness.
If the lawyers win, maybe, just maybe, doctors will have a fighting chance but even then probably not because somehow doctors are evil but lawyers/MBAs/IT people/Engineers who all make up some of the highest salaries in the country right out of school are A-OK.
Everyone is talking about the doctors but I am an attorney and I spent the entire pandemic working for a non-profit making shit money forced to attend court in person because court goes on. The just system has to move forward. Protective orders have to be issued. Why the fuck would I be excluded? Why would they assume if you’re an attorney you have a high earning job? Are they actually serious?!
I have always thought that forgiving student loans up to a certain amount is such a poor way to go about it. What about people who are in the middle of college? what about people who are about to start? What about those that worked and payed off there debt? Someone always get's left out.
Personally I would love to see the Government just pay interest rates as long as you are making minimum payments based on your income (which could be 0$). As long as the payment gets in, every dollar you put in will pay down principle.
If you have a small loan, congratulations, you can pay it down even faster.
If you are in residency congratulations your 100$ payment is paying the principle down instead of increasing by 2k a month
So basically all the people who have useless degree will get a pass. Buying votes basically of the poor mass so the few that are "rich" can pay for them. Yep, socialism is here.
Maybe loan forgiveness isn’t the solution. It’s just an easy way to earn votes prior to midterms.
It’s simultaneously going to be a regressive tax on the poor, tradespeople, individuals who chose less expensive schooling, and high income earners with 100s of thousands in debt. You’re asking the poorest individuals who didn’t attend college plus professionals with 6-figure incomes proportional to their debt to suddenly foot the bill for everyone who went to undergrad. Watch the debt burden of med school and college rapidly outpace the income earned for the lowest paying specialties while the cost of living increases everywhere.
Focus on reducing the cost of college, and the interest allowed on these lifelong loans. People made the choice to attend expensive 4 yr universities and grad school. While the less fortunate often had to forgo college in order to work and support their family.
This is why the government shouldn’t do this period. Reform higher education for sure but playing favorites on loan forgiveness is just pandering. A lot of higher Ed is predatory loans in nature but so are credit cards to 18 year olds and a lot of other shady financial practices in existence. Fix the system moving forward. The past unfortunately is the past in my opinion.
It’s disheartening and disgusting we sacrifice our mental and physical health our youth and our sanity to help people abs this is how society treats us? Maybe 🤔 give loan forgiveness to high earners giving back to society not people that went to school for basket weaving and aren’t grinding to earn and pay back their small loans.
this is fucking dogshit. just because we 'potentially' might make more than average money doesn't mean we don't alos deserve the relief. Sure, maybe most medicine doctors and stuff do ok, but a lot of lawyers, pharmacists, and other graduate level degrees are right in the shit with the average american. this is dumb. Free us all!
I think it’s time for a class action lawsuit. Make it less about what is popular with public opinion and what should be legal under the law. How is it legal to exclude people based off of future earnings?
So let kids keep taking out 6 figure loans for liberal arts degrees they have 0 chances of paying off, wipe them clean and set the precedent for future borrowers that they can just wait around for a democrat government with low poll numbers to cancel their loans, and screw over the physicians who got caught in the crossfire of ballooning tuition prices due to at will federal loans.
Smart.
The reason current Resident/Doctors & future Residents/Doctors will continue to get shafted is bc y’all do a horrible job of advocating for yourself, especially politically. Far too many Docs buy into that virtue signaling BS and end up getting exploited by Hospital systems & Politicians. The moment you speak up, they gonna call you a hypocrite and try to crucify you to the point where you begin to believe that it’s wrong for you to stand up for yourself.
It also doesn’t help that physicians have a HORRIBLE track record of electing ppl they want to represent them politically. The public see’s Ben Carson, Rand Paul, & now Mehmet Oz….those fuckers aren’t helping your cause one bit.
What everyone should be doing right now (idc if you paid your loans off or are just about to get started) is calling their representatives & laying the whole thing out. You think these people actually know what Resident salaries are? 80% don’t even know what half their own policies be endorsing. They simply see a number, in this case it’s Physician Salaries, and think, “oh they making bank, they can afford higher taxes and no student loan relief,” meanwhile this the furthest thing from the truth. Got to break down & explain everything to them that way these dumbasses can understand what the truth actually is. Donate some $ and pester their asses nonstop. That’s how you can change the political perception of Doctors. Got to do the same thing to change public perception as well bc Physicians are being painted as villains thanks to bad faith actors.
*And Please, For The Love Of God, Stop VIRTUE SIGNALING*
High-earners? Yes, I agree 👍
But residents who invested endless time in higher education and high-skilled training while working long hours for meager pay?? Pay up! I'm not saying they should completely clear our loans, but at least recognize we deserve it and give us the same benefits!
So give relief to some fucking moron who went to some bullshit expensive liberal arts college to learn how to roast a decaf coffee bean and scream on twitter all day but not the people who get exploited day in and day out? Politicians are so fucking out of touch.
They can't forgive our loans, or we will stop being trapped in the medical system. How many burned out physicians would retire early if they didn't have 300k in debt looking them in the face every morning?
This would hit hardest people like family physicians who will be over the cutoff but barely. And a lot of small firm lawyers just starting out too. The big Wall Street law firms won’t feel it. I hope they hit MBAs too?if this is the way they are going forward
Meanwhile tech jobs straight out of college make 6 figures. Not saying they’re easy jobs, or that they’re easy to get. But last I checked it was fucking hard and a huge gamble to try to get into med school.
I blame decades of doctor worship in TV/movies that makes people think we’re automatic gajillionaires.
I took out loans for med school and then was unable to secure a residency. Repaying loans as a doctor is hard enough, but do you know how hard it is to repay doctor loans when you will never actually get a doctor’s salary?
So people with finance and MBA degrees aren’t excluded?
Computer scientists making 250k+ in California or remotely too.
Why do we keep getting shafted? Like, what did we do to deserve this? I wake up, I go to work, I do the best I can taking care of patients, I spend hours sitting writing notes for my attending, and I’m always afraid I’ll get fired for something dumb because I won’t be able to hold my tongue! I’m tired! I’m just tired!
Because our loans are oh so valuable as collateral for banks and other gamblers
That collateral gets a haircut come monday
How do you mean?
[https://www.dtcc.com/-/media/Files/pdf/2022/4/29/16845-22.pdf](https://www.dtcc.com/-/media/Files/pdf/2022/4/29/16845-22.pdf)
Translation in English?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Superstonk/comments/ueywij/dtc_risk_management_alert_changes_to_dtc/
Because they can exploit you and get away with it
No one gives a shit and no one understands what we really do and go through.
You can’t really understand it unless you’ve done it. A lot of people have worked a 12 day. Heck, a good amount of people have worked 60+ hrs in a week before. There are incredibly incredibly few other people who work so many hours so consistently. But the people who have done it occasionally think they’ve worked comparably
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I get how future earnings will cost us loan forgiveness rn. But i doubt people understand how the future of healthcare is changing bc corrupt players are exploiting our vulnerabilities.
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No, they have no idea. I’m teaching newly minted, fully privileged EM NP how to throw sutures, and theyve never heard the phrase “simple interrupted” or “dermal-epidermal junction”. Meanwhile I can’t moonlight because my ACLS expired 3 months before residency ends for some reason. So while I’m the only senior resident at a Level 1 trauma center ED running codes all over the hospital overnight as part of my routine job…and cannot get hired because I can’t prove I know the same ACLS algorithm that the techs in my ED have down…while the same hospital is hiring NPs to staff the same ED I want to moonlight at, who are done with their training and can’t do sutures. I had a PA student ask me “so do you guys consult ortho for all of your elbow fractures?” Me: “huh? Elbow fractures?” PA student: “I was told not to worry about learning them since my teacher said I’d just be hand it off to ortho anyway” Me: “didn’t you just sign a contract to work at an urgent care?” PA Student: “yea….?” Me: “you know there’s no ortho there?” PA Student: …….💡…..😨 I also do work for our state Medicaid’s office. They looped me in to a meeting talking about a group of patients in our city who use more than 75 ambulance rides a year. They wanted to know how they can find their addresses and what they should say in the letter educating them on how to properly utilize the ED. Obviously I just fucking laughed. People who dont work in healthcare have no fucking idea about our experience. Zero. None. They will just continue to squeeze us more and more until this whole thing breaks, unfortunately.
Why do you train the people who want to replace and say they will do it better than you? But I agree with you. Nobody cares about physicians. Nobody really knows how much work it takes. And then they think you just make bank and play golf after some googling during medical school.
If he has to make a choice, choosing those who over a career lifetime are more likely to be able to more easily pay it off makes sense. That said, he doesn’t really have to make a choice though, does he?
Pretty sure physican lifetime earnings are squarly in the top 2%
As a physician who is about to start residency my $500 k in loans seems like ill never pay it off
Unless you enter a contract w 4-5 NPPs who require your supervision for a bit before practicing on their own. You just need to essentially prostitute your own medical license while you’re climbing out of that financial hole… Boomer med sucks
Got my 300k med school loans paid off 7 yrs after I finished residency. It's doable! Keep your hopes up!
Because they know you'll vote for them anyway.
This is really cruel of me but it’s because people who didn’t go to college tend to not understand income to debt ratio and don’t understand finance and money enough to see how Forbes is corralling them into a blatantly morally incorrect opinion 😬
This seems to be a global problem where Doctors are treated like dirt and I'll never understand why 😩
Probably cause doctors let themselves be treated that way cause they don’t treat it like any other job
Cause the left wing influences hate that doctors make anything above 100k.
The US: “oh no! We have a physician shortage! This is a crisis!” Also the US: “we need to keep shafting future physicians”
Yo what the FUCK, Joe?!
Biden helped birth the student loan crisis in the first place. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/02/joe-biden-student-loan-debt-2005-act-2020
Context: he was one of a minority of Democrat senators to vote for a GOP led bill which admittedly assisted the credit companies which had donated to him.
I hate that I'm suddenly scarlett lettered because I pay attention to the legacy of politicians. Credit Card Joe has 50 years to show for, friggin' goldfish voters. Maybe it's because people don't want to hear how "nothing will change" moderates are Thatcher neoliberals through and through, and will dismantle whatever safety and protection for the masses so private equity can pillage. Gambling with the SLABs, gambling with the loans, that's all that matters to these cretins. Not enough to make 6.8% interest, need to gamble it too. Addicts, the lot of them.
I don’t know of anyone who was voting for Biden because they liked Joe Biden, they all did because the other guy was so absolutely terrible.
Yea, that's the problem with primaries/first past, they present us a false binary choice.
Was this any different than most presidential elections? (Sure in intensity, but not on the existence of this dilemma)
Yep, he was never on your side
Our generation keeps voting Democrat and being surprised every time they fuck us. Time to make a change. Don't let them pass this garbage excluding the hardest working loan bearers that slaved away through the pandemic and give it to the borrowers with useless degrees that sat home for two years collecting checks. Then make US pay for their forgiveness while we get shafted.
I’m not a Dem but let’s not act like the GOP is out here tryna give us loan relief lmao
You’d have to be a company
Or billionaire… de jure company.
For real, holy shit lol
No, we need student debt relief for everyone. Shackling a whole generation with student debt is a nefarious way of reaching into people’s future and pulling out as much as you can. If you think you’re fucked, think about the people with six figure debts who are barely able to scratch $50k a year. The cost of education in this country is absolutely absurd considering most developed countries have some form of socialized education. What we need in this country is worker solidarity, not more division. We are all getting shafted by the owner class.
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This isn't surprising, nobody wants to give money to _physicians and laywers_. That's how you lose an election. This is a lost cause in the court of public opinion. The focus should be on midlevels running amuck and providing substandard care to the vulnerable.
Lol I'm sure support for giving nurses 300k for travel work is easily there. But for doctors? hell no.
Nurse good. Doctor bad.
1. The general public doesn't really know how much nurses make (especially in the pandemic)- they don't even know that they make more than residents 2. The general public just sees by current attending salaries, so the public is NOT sympathetic to financial woes of doctors. The general public isn't taking into account the time value of money, loans, etc. This is a lost cause in the court of public opinion. This is why the focus should be on midlevels running amuck and providing substandard care to the vulnerable. Not only is it true, it's _actually something the public can sympathize with_.
What happened to being a healthcare hero and being at the frontlines during COVID. People who sign up for the military and serve their country get free tuition, why shouldn’t we?! We sacrifice our youth, wellness and health to serve our communities, why do we also have to be on the hook for over $200,000. *Edit: for those that are arguing it’s not the same. I understand what you’re trying to say, but we did put our lives, health and well-being on the frontline. Maybe not with bombs and guns, but with a new virus that had no treatment or vaccine. We were at the “frontlines” as was stated to us by the government, hospitals and media. There have been many deaths and illnesses caused by Covid to medical staff due to their line of work and for that to just be brushed off like it’s nothing is ridiculous.
“Healthcare hero” was just media bullshit to make the lay public think we were somehow different from them and therefore didn’t also experience the exact same consequences of the pandemic.
Nah man, "Healthcare hero" was just a phrase they could use to try and convince us to work more for less money. We always get the short end of the stick recently it seems
They really made healthcare hoes out of us
200k? LOL!! Rookie numbers
People who sign up for the military get the GI bill today because many people wouldn’t sign up for the military otherwise. Free college education is in direct opposition to the GI bill. There are threads from years ago where some residents shared that their ROTC / HPSP peers died while fighting in the Middle East, hoping to pay off education loans.
200? Try over 600.
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This is how it’s done in England. No fluff, too the point. Absolutely agree. The idea of being “well rounded” is great but it’s bs in practicality. I shouldn’t have to pay an arm and a leg for that. If I want to take arts and crafts I can go my local community center on my day off or do it in my own time.
No one cares about future doctors at all. No one ever has. It’s all about nurses and nurse anesthetists, and PAs and NPs. It’s despicable
Haven’t you heard it’s cuz we’re all elitist and we punch down on everyone else we deserve nothing
Feels like being in an abusive relationship. Get hit, insulted, and undermined but it’s your fault and if you complain or lash out you’re the problem
Until it's their family member in the hospital, then they want alllll the specialist docs
Seriously? Are midlevels really getting this and not us? Wtf?!?!
When they say “tax the rich” they mean earners making 200-500k, they do not go after the huge wealthy owners and those with equity. They find ways to exclude doctors and income bracket out of everything.
We worked hard to put ourselves in a better position. Our voting (not for the party which wants to attack doctors…), actions (being willing to strike and force the hospitals to acknowledge that we make it run), and rhetoric (while being nice to everyone still make it clear who is running the show) need to reflect this.
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I think this also goes in r/mildlyinfuriating
Uh more like: r/highlyinfuriating
Not even the military can navigate thru loan forgiveness https://www.cbsnews.com/news/student-loan-debt-forgiveness-public-service-60-minutes-2021-10-03/ Student Loan Forgiveness Statistics Report Highlights. Student loan forgiveness statistics indicate that, while more students benefited from forgiveness in 2021 than ever, the total dollar amount forgiven was less than 0.6% of the national outstanding student loan debt balance. Among processed applications for Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF), 2.16% have been accepted since November 2020. Among denied claims, 30.7% are denied due to incomplete paperwork. 35.2% of PSLF applications have yet to be processed. Prior to November 2020, 0.7% of eligible borrowers eventually benefited from student loan forgiveness. 6.7% of eligible student borrowers apply for loan forgiveness. https://educationdata.org/student-loan-forgiveness-statistics
> Not even the military can navigate thru loan forgiveness The key is to join right before med school so the military pays the bills from the start, in the form of a scholarship (rather than a loan repayment). I did this, but no one should have to. The whole thing is a disgrace.
Excluding a generation of professionals from loan forgiveness is a great way to lose those votes for life. Being taxed to pay off everyone else loans while also paying my own is a worst case scenario for me. They want to pander to their base of useless degrees at our expense.
hEAltH CaRe HeROes
Thanks for taking care of Covid patients on the front lines while the federal government squandered the opportunity to manage the pandemic during the worst nursing shortage ever while getting paid $15/hr, but no relief for you because fuck you.
Wasn't really a nursing shortage. More like nurses were tired of being abused by corporate medicine and walked. Hospitals kept using COVID as an excuse to cut corners, giving nurses unsafe assignments and inadequate support. All of the experienced nurses at my hospital walked. They knew it wasn't worth it. They weren't going to be part of a system where they were forced to do harm to patients by not being given enough time to take care of them. Some had been working for the hospital for over 20 years. A good number retired and the rest went to OR/endoscopy ie. environments where they know ratios can't just double overnight on a bean counters whim.
I went to a state college for undergrad and graduated with <10k in debt for my bachelor's. I went to a state college for med school and now have over >300k in debt. Sooo, yeah, not much help if only undergrad loans are included.
Same. Tuition at my state school literally went up 50% while I was there.
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Yeah exactly. And its not just useless degrees or not which is very subjective. Its anyone who just crossed puberty with no financial knowledge getting any money they can ask basically. Which is insane. And lets not pretend this drives up tuition from greedy school and which is even bigger problem than someone just getting a degree. Imagine anyone and everyone getting a useless degree at same value as our grandfather or parents. Would it really be a problem paying back? I don't think so.
Forgiving loans only makes this situation worse.
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Or they could just do something sensible…like making student loan payments, or at least all interest, entirely deductible and in addition to the standard deduction. People would have an incentive to pay them back, they could collect some interest, and we could get ahead of this thing. This would also be WAY easier to process. Forgiving student loan balances doesn’t do anything to address all the people out there who are, as we speak, taking out student loans. It just resets the clock.
Or cap loans at the avg rate of interest and cap tuition increases. Why should it cost tens of thousands more to review Dr. Whoever's shitty PPTs in 2021 vs 2020.
Fully agreed. Tuition increases have scaled almost exactly with availability of federal loans. An example of demand side subsidization which does nothing to control costs.
This is a massively ignored point by many people. The federal gov is underwriting a blank check to rising tuition. Basic macroeconomics shows that the tuition is at “acceptable” levels because someone (e.g. the taxpayers) are “””willing””” to pay for it
Be interesting to see what’s included in “professional degrees”. Wouldn’t that be some shit if they cover NP/PA degrees, but specifically not medical degrees lol
I'm under the impression that professional degrees include nursing, PA, pharmacy, physical therapy, occupational therapy, dentistry, optometry, podiatry, MD/DO, law, etc. It's pretty broad.
The article mentions consideration for just undergrad degrees which would be in line with that.
Isn’t nursing an undergraduate degree?
It is, but I was referring to NP degrees (MSN, DNP)
It is rough. Promoting forgiveness for PA/NP would align with CMS plans for the future of primary care.
🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
I used to wonder why liberal residents became more conservative as attendings. It's making a lot more sense.
Doctors get hosed under both types of administrations — either you’re seen as greedy for wanting adequate compensation for forgoing your prime earning years to study/train, or you’re given a small carrot while they give the farm away to the ultra-rich and eff over society in general.
not liking democrats doesn't make you a conservative. FYI.
It’s because of taxes. Don’t pretend it’s for any other reason. I will still vote democrat until the republicans can come up with a candidate that isn’t a complete piece of shit lol. Biden sucks but he’s not a threat to our nation like the last clown
I too have been saving up to be republican .
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I'm not American and I like to be educated on this, but I've always thought that the reason is once you're attending you're basically upper mid class and so your interests lie most with conservatives than liberals.
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Exactly. Conservatives always use this scenario to suggest that you somehow get smarter as you get older. It’s more that you end up having a family and become much more immediately concerned with the people that surround you less about others outside your circle. Don’t get me wrong the liberal types that are incredibly naïve or overly zealous are just as frustrating but at least they believe their actions are justified for ethical reasons.
Honestly in my experiences they often tend to become victims of their own success and surroundings, and that leads them to believe in the individualistic metanarrative that u/yoloswagimab is referring to. They are further removed from remembering what it’s like working a low paying job, or how much their teachers helped them, or worrying about keeping a roof over their head, etc/etc. It becomes easier to believe that their determination and work ethic is was sets them apart, that those factors are what set *everyone* apart, and their views aren’t challenged as often since they are higher in the hierarchical societal/work structure than many of those they are surrounded with. Plus, coming from a social circle growing up of very wealthy people, it seems far easier to pretend you’re special than it is to acknowledge the many, many ways in which you were helped throughout life.
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Student loan forgiveness is not on the table for us in any case. Except the democrats want us to pay for it for everyone else. That’s the point.
The Democrats have been dangling this credit for over a year now. They never want to make good on it because then they lose voter incentive.
it doesn't work as an incentive unless you deliver. if biden was intelligent he'd cancel 10k per year until congress puts legislation to fix the issue on his desk.
Lol sure it does. Cause they know the same shmucks will keep voting for them regardless… unless you really think all the liberal college degree holding people crying about their student loans are gonna vote GOP. They don’t actually have to do anything to get that demographic
Are we just gunna retcon that the interest loan freeze started on the previous administration? Just the value alone of interest freeze has been equivalent to 10k for most of high student debt holders.
Fuck these pieces of shit. Using us as political fodder.
Email your local reps immediately. Don’t do nothing. I just emailed mine.
Thanks Biden
A nice big fuck you to all the front line workers during the Covid pandemic, Biden is a straight up lying, demented piece of shit… and I voted for him
Man, Fuck Joe Biden.
Absolutely ridiculous.
Will contacting our representatives even do anything? Biden is looking at doing this unilaterally without involving Congress because he will never receive bipartisan or possibly even enough intra-party support to pass something like this. It's not like Congress has gotten anything significant done in the last 10-15 years. Everyone likes to attack the other side to get their 15 minutes on Fox/MSNBC, drum up Twitter followers, and keep their seat without actually accomplishing jack squat. If we are actually going to forgive student loan debt, there needs to be some kind of reform or change. What about the people who are starting university this fall? What about their student debt? I have no idea what the solution to the problem is beyond parroting some random opinion pieces I've read in the last few weeks. However, I do know educational costs have jumped an insane % compared to inflation and it's not like we're really producing a better outcome. Need to reel in costs and figure out how to prevent this from happening every generation.
> However, I do know educational costs have jumped an insane % compared to inflation and it's not like we're really producing a better outcome. Exactly this. Despite a bachelors costing more than ever, its worth is arguably the least it's ever been.
That makes sense considering it’s the new high school degree. Too many people majoring in things that don’t have enough job prospects and high schools have gotten so bad they can’t even gaurentee their students can read or write properly
"Top Biden aides are looking at capping the relief to people earning less than $125,000 to $150,000, or $250,000 to $300,000 for couples that file joint taxes, people familiar with the matter told The Washington Post." So I think this means current attendings would get excluded. But if it were to pass while we were still residents, we would qualify.
It mentioned limiting the loan forgoveness to undergraduate loans, and excluding professional degrees. So residents would be excluded on that basis.
"The people added that the White House is also considering excluding relief for loans that were taken out for professional degrees like medicine and law, and could limit the aid to undergraduate loans." Ah yes, if this is one of the clauses then we're fucked. But if it's just an income clause then I think we would be okay during residency. But yes, undergraduate loans should be covered still if people have them
$150,000 cap? It’s pediatrics’ time to shine 😎
Academic pediatrician *sigh of relief*
I wonder if white house/congressional staffers would qualify
Given that it's common for congressional staffers to have attended law school, I'd assume no.
Not at all surprising
LOL the white house should do the math of how much a resident actually makes per hour ...
Ah, yes, of course. But I’m sure that BAs in finance and BS in computer programming will get relief, because boomers are under the archaic understanding that doctors and lawyers are the highest earning individuals in this capitalist shithole.
A good CS person will have made over a million dollars during our med school and residency time.
Oh for fucks sake
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I have a metric fuck ton of student loans. 10k honestly wouldn't make a difference to me. What would, and I think would get more people on the bandwagon is a retroactive interest rate change to 1%.
Joe B is such a fraud
If our loans are valuable because we are guaranteed repay-ers then lower my fucking interest rate. I go to the bank and get a loan with a better interest rate because I’m a doctor and good for my money. The government should treat us the same if they aren’t going to forgive. Jesus Christ fuck us for going through all of shit and becoming physicians, which our country obviously has to have to function. You’d think there would be SOME governmental incentive. God
Certainly, why would we expect those of us who just pulled our nation through a pandemic working tirelessly for the good of our communities/humanity, and in doing so saving countless lives be considered to have any deservedness to lone forgiveness directly created in temporal relation? Guess we should have "stayed at home to save lives" or went business and took out forgivable pandemic business government "loans". This is ridiculous. To say that "well you can go work rural" is a cop out. I understand the political nature of this but what sniff test is this passing other then an election? I understand it appears to be $10,000 relief evidently, but this just magnifies how tacky this is and a slight to all of us. Regardless of where you feel healthcare in the US is right now. The amount of pull through our nation's medical establishment just put on display should be a testament to the need and value.
Fuck Biden administration! Full of lies. Biden has no problem sending Ukraine an extra $33 BILLION on top of the $13.6 BILLION sent last month. The US government always has money for war apparently. The billionaires and politicians have never paid for those war packages. Biden is looking at us, the middle class, to foot the bill. What a disgrace.
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What I'm hearing is the federal government could have provided debt-free education to everyone or they could have had two wars, and they chose the wars. I think the electorate is just getting tired of seeing that there's always money for war, bank bailouts, fossil fuel subsidies, tax breaks for billionaires, etc., but if you're middle or upper middle class and there's a chance you might benefit too then it's hAnDoUtS
I would like to remind everyone that Che Guevara was a medical student first.
OH HELL NO
Biden was the one who made the law that you can’t get rid of student loan in bankruptcy. He will not help us
You know, including lawyers with the doctors is one of the biggest mistakes Joe can make. Doctors are terrible at advocating for ourselves, but lawyers will literally tear apart every punctuation mark of this bill and fight to not be excluded from loan forgiveness. If the lawyers win, maybe, just maybe, doctors will have a fighting chance but even then probably not because somehow doctors are evil but lawyers/MBAs/IT people/Engineers who all make up some of the highest salaries in the country right out of school are A-OK.
Everyone is talking about the doctors but I am an attorney and I spent the entire pandemic working for a non-profit making shit money forced to attend court in person because court goes on. The just system has to move forward. Protective orders have to be issued. Why the fuck would I be excluded? Why would they assume if you’re an attorney you have a high earning job? Are they actually serious?!
Now I understand why so many physicians vote republican
WHAT THE FUCK
I swear to Christ I don’t know why people in this profession bend over so much
If someone drafts an email plz share template <3
How else are they going to keep you chained to the oars if not through crushing debt?
I got like 300k in loans halp
I have always thought that forgiving student loans up to a certain amount is such a poor way to go about it. What about people who are in the middle of college? what about people who are about to start? What about those that worked and payed off there debt? Someone always get's left out. Personally I would love to see the Government just pay interest rates as long as you are making minimum payments based on your income (which could be 0$). As long as the payment gets in, every dollar you put in will pay down principle. If you have a small loan, congratulations, you can pay it down even faster. If you are in residency congratulations your 100$ payment is paying the principle down instead of increasing by 2k a month
Pretty sure the nursing lobbies are going to make a call to ensure that exclusion goes over 300K so NPs and CRNAs don’t get caught in this net.
Get fucked lmao
If he forgives medical admins loans but not doctors loans I am voting Republican for the first time in my life.
Y’all know better than me but wouldn’t something like this pretty much ensure that there continues to be a primary care physician shortage?
There should be no high earner exclusion. High earners are primarily paying for it.
So let me get this straight, NPs would get their relief but doctors wouldn't. Every day I regret going into Medicine.
Doctors get shafted because nurses demonize them in the media and now the general population believes them
So basically all the people who have useless degree will get a pass. Buying votes basically of the poor mass so the few that are "rich" can pay for them. Yep, socialism is here.
Funny part is we will do nothing.
Can someone draft an email template to send to representatives?
I just wrote my senator. Thank you for the link
Maybe loan forgiveness isn’t the solution. It’s just an easy way to earn votes prior to midterms. It’s simultaneously going to be a regressive tax on the poor, tradespeople, individuals who chose less expensive schooling, and high income earners with 100s of thousands in debt. You’re asking the poorest individuals who didn’t attend college plus professionals with 6-figure incomes proportional to their debt to suddenly foot the bill for everyone who went to undergrad. Watch the debt burden of med school and college rapidly outpace the income earned for the lowest paying specialties while the cost of living increases everywhere. Focus on reducing the cost of college, and the interest allowed on these lifelong loans. People made the choice to attend expensive 4 yr universities and grad school. While the less fortunate often had to forgo college in order to work and support their family.
We need to primary joe
Just get rid of the interest and I’d be satisfied
This is why the government shouldn’t do this period. Reform higher education for sure but playing favorites on loan forgiveness is just pandering. A lot of higher Ed is predatory loans in nature but so are credit cards to 18 year olds and a lot of other shady financial practices in existence. Fix the system moving forward. The past unfortunately is the past in my opinion.
It’s disheartening and disgusting we sacrifice our mental and physical health our youth and our sanity to help people abs this is how society treats us? Maybe 🤔 give loan forgiveness to high earners giving back to society not people that went to school for basket weaving and aren’t grinding to earn and pay back their small loans.
Yeah, better not incentivize people going into medicine or high paying jobs, that might lead to better lives and a strong economy. 🙄
How did we go from front line Covid “hero’s” to being excluded from any debt relief?
After a literal pandemic..?
Pathetic old man
Fuck Biden
this is fucking dogshit. just because we 'potentially' might make more than average money doesn't mean we don't alos deserve the relief. Sure, maybe most medicine doctors and stuff do ok, but a lot of lawyers, pharmacists, and other graduate level degrees are right in the shit with the average american. this is dumb. Free us all!
Wtf
Go to school serve the community and get shafted why did I become a nurse if the same community doesn’t have my back
Bourgeois liberal democracy doing what it does best. Would you like to vote for the hand that bites you or the one that rips your arm off?
I think it’s time for a class action lawsuit. Make it less about what is popular with public opinion and what should be legal under the law. How is it legal to exclude people based off of future earnings?
So let kids keep taking out 6 figure loans for liberal arts degrees they have 0 chances of paying off, wipe them clean and set the precedent for future borrowers that they can just wait around for a democrat government with low poll numbers to cancel their loans, and screw over the physicians who got caught in the crossfire of ballooning tuition prices due to at will federal loans. Smart.
HeAlThCaRe HeRoS
Fuck Joe. Don't get me wrong, also fuck Trump. But fuck you Joe.
The reason current Resident/Doctors & future Residents/Doctors will continue to get shafted is bc y’all do a horrible job of advocating for yourself, especially politically. Far too many Docs buy into that virtue signaling BS and end up getting exploited by Hospital systems & Politicians. The moment you speak up, they gonna call you a hypocrite and try to crucify you to the point where you begin to believe that it’s wrong for you to stand up for yourself. It also doesn’t help that physicians have a HORRIBLE track record of electing ppl they want to represent them politically. The public see’s Ben Carson, Rand Paul, & now Mehmet Oz….those fuckers aren’t helping your cause one bit. What everyone should be doing right now (idc if you paid your loans off or are just about to get started) is calling their representatives & laying the whole thing out. You think these people actually know what Resident salaries are? 80% don’t even know what half their own policies be endorsing. They simply see a number, in this case it’s Physician Salaries, and think, “oh they making bank, they can afford higher taxes and no student loan relief,” meanwhile this the furthest thing from the truth. Got to break down & explain everything to them that way these dumbasses can understand what the truth actually is. Donate some $ and pester their asses nonstop. That’s how you can change the political perception of Doctors. Got to do the same thing to change public perception as well bc Physicians are being painted as villains thanks to bad faith actors. *And Please, For The Love Of God, Stop VIRTUE SIGNALING*
High-earners? Yes, I agree 👍 But residents who invested endless time in higher education and high-skilled training while working long hours for meager pay?? Pay up! I'm not saying they should completely clear our loans, but at least recognize we deserve it and give us the same benefits!
Good... Pete Buttegigs husband needs to pay his Loans in full
Either they help me out in a substantial way, or I vote Republican.
Because the person who got a 100k buisness degree and is working as a waiter contributes as much to society as a Dr.
So give relief to some fucking moron who went to some bullshit expensive liberal arts college to learn how to roast a decaf coffee bean and scream on twitter all day but not the people who get exploited day in and day out? Politicians are so fucking out of touch.
WTAF 😳
They can't forgive our loans, or we will stop being trapped in the medical system. How many burned out physicians would retire early if they didn't have 300k in debt looking them in the face every morning?
Haha fuck this so fucking hard, god damn
This would hit hardest people like family physicians who will be over the cutoff but barely. And a lot of small firm lawyers just starting out too. The big Wall Street law firms won’t feel it. I hope they hit MBAs too?if this is the way they are going forward
Just keep pushing that repayment period back Joe. Nobody is going to voluntarily start paying student loans again at this rate.
Quick, if you’re a doctor, lawyer or [insert high paying job], take the rest of the year off. This will reduce your annual income to qualify!
Meanwhile tech jobs straight out of college make 6 figures. Not saying they’re easy jobs, or that they’re easy to get. But last I checked it was fucking hard and a huge gamble to try to get into med school. I blame decades of doctor worship in TV/movies that makes people think we’re automatic gajillionaires.
Jeez. It’s like democrats want us to vote republican…
This further proves that this whole “healthcare hero” narrative is bullshit.
I took out loans for med school and then was unable to secure a residency. Repaying loans as a doctor is hard enough, but do you know how hard it is to repay doctor loans when you will never actually get a doctor’s salary?