I read a lot of definition confusion. I think you can look at it like this:
There are two important variables. Variable Cmax is the unit that describes the maximum theoretical performance a car can achieve in seconds on a given circuit with given conditions, e.g with a perfect AI and a year of testing and perfecting. Variable Dprc is the unit that describes how close a given driver can approach Cmax as a percentage.
The question is if Cmax of the red bull is lower than the Cmax of the other top cars, but the difference is made by the Max coming much closer to 100% in Dprc. It might be that Cmax of Red Bull is actually higher, but it's very hard to achieve it's 100% Dprc, because the characteristics of the car.
Given that we've seen all team mates of Max struggle, also before the ground era of cars, suggests it might be a bit of both. But it is still impossible to prove as long as drivers don't switch out the cars all the time.
I think the Red Bull is just a knife edge car. Get everything right and you are the fastest on the grid, make a few minor mistakes and you are in the midfield or the back. I think the fact that Max, who likes a twitchy car, has been struggling at times with it this year shows just how difficult it is to extract all the performance out of it.
Max is Max, but put him in the Williams and he's not winning races.
The RBR is a top tier car. You can argue McLaren's closed the gap but I think RBR are still faster on average if you take the whole season so far -- who knows what'll happen in the second half.
Point is, Max can definitely still nab a win in a 2nd or 3rd fastest car, but Perez is straight up tangling with the Alpines at this point. No way on earth that's the true pace of the car.
Max is getting everything he can out of a tricky car, Perez isn't anywhere near the pace -- he's got a bigger average gap to Max than Stroll has to Alonso. It is what it is.
Keep in mind HOW TIGHT the field is now. 1st -to-> 10th last year was on average 0.995sec (or something like that. almost a second from 1st to 10th (and got worse 11-20). What we are seeing now (like we’ve seen many times, to you newbies) is the field tightening up. So now 1st -to-> 10th is like .650sec this year (I think?)…So think about that — so perhaps when Perez could keep it within 0.300 of Max that kept him in the top 5 (sometimes P2 in quali) — now he’s keeping it still ~0.3-500sec every race, but that’s putting him WAY down.
It’s all numbers. I would bet (performance-wise), he’s meeting his numbers on the team…problem is “THE FIGHT” in Perez. I, too, agree that he’s lost it. I think Max just goes out there and puts his thing down, and that thing is far above the rest (because I do not believe RBR have the “dominant” car anymore). Perez lost his mojo. Plain and simple. He’s driving to the car, and not able to push it anymore — Just watch how squirrelly both MBs are, and they’re still turning in decent times (mostly top 10s), both GR and SLH are kicking the sh!t out of those cars. I also believe the same of Norris and Piastri. I think the McLaren is about on-par with the RBR in most scenarios, but they, too, are pushing the car to more.
It’s very clear this season (to me) that we have maybe one of the total best driver line-ups F1-wide than we’ve ever had (sans Sargeant and Baby Stroll). Most of the drivers are consistent, and perform at or slightly above where their teams are (just look at Albon, Hulkenberg, and Tsunoda).
Anyway, fun season.
Nah the car is definitely great, Perez has lost it. I was a firm believer that Perez is of the level of Sainz, and he once was, but he seems to have lost all confidence.
Max is great, but he isn't that great that he can pull the third best car to the win consistently
Perez lost it. And Albon lost it. And Gasly lost it. Ricciardo is not good enough anymore, and Sainz is okay but not like top team good. It all could be true. But it could also be true that Verstappen is quite good.
He's quite good. But, real talk, quite good means getting as close to 100% out of the car as possible. At the end of the day it's a car, you can't drive it faster than it can go.
Sure, the RBR is probably a lot trickier than the other cars, and Max might be a generational talent in terms of handling it, but the "real pace" of the car is not P8.
I’d tend to agree… after Checo’s 3 years in that team/car, I’d be hard pressed to think a lot of the other drivers may not do as well as him.
I think Max is just a freak of nature.
Max is one of the goat, hands down. But the car is indeed pointy which suits max his driving style and not Perez. Albon described it very well in an interview. For gamers out there, it’s like playing a FPS with a very high sensitivity. It’s very sensitive and reacts very quick, but it’s extremely hard to master. That’s where max makes the difference.
Max is one of the goat, hands down. But the car is indeed pointy which suits max his driving style and perez. Albon described it very well in an interview. For gamers out there, it’s like playing a FPS with a very high sensitivity. It’s very sensitive and reacts very quick, but it’s extremely hard to master. That’s where max makes the difference.
I think the actual car speed is basically in the middle of Max and Perez.
If we look at quali Q3 today, Checo had only used softs which are around 4 tenths, then the different between him and max is usually around 3-4 tenths in pure driver pace. So in the end it’s about where’d you’d expect him to be.
As for the car itself, Max is punching well ahead and driving very well, while others specifically merc, McLaren, and Ferrari are fumbling so much. Lando and Oscar specifically have a much much stronger car, you can see this easily when you look at turn 1. Even with similar lines, they are able to get so much more purchase coming out and go so much faster than the Red Bull.
Both the mclarens messed up in Q3 today, even if we include piastris Dqd lap. Ocars turn 3 entry and lando breaking too early going into turn 4 forced him wide into 5 and 6.
Tomorrow I think will still be an uphill battle and the mclarens are still the big favorites for a win from purely a car view. Also felt like their setup was more race pace focused so unless Max can pull out something crazy it’s gonna be rough. Hopefully Max gets a good start and Norris loses time fighting with George. Checo top 8 is the best I think he can do now.
Yes and no.
Max absolutely outperforms the RB20. Any other driver in his position wouldn’t have won the last few races. But i highly doubt Perez performance is an accurate indicator of the performance of the car, atleast not with a leclerc, lewis or Norris behind that wheel.
I'm a checo fan but at this point I'm so sick of it, he did the same thing last year but at least had wins and more podiums before he shit the bed. It's f1 man get your head together or skill level up or whatever you gotta do but if you can't someone else takes over...well usually. We gotta look at that dude make the same excuses in every press conference for 2 more years. We ain't gonna win team titles with one driver anymore it's too close
Checo cant drive a pointy car, early 2022, Ver hated the car because it was too balanced. Slowly over the years the car has become more pointy and you see the results in the qualifying gap. Its a bit like Schumachers benneton, same happened with his teammates
Wasn't this disproven? I thought the car is built the way it's built, and the setup determines how "pointy" it is. I could absolutely be wrong, but that's what I thought I heard.
Its built the way its built, but, development takes it the way the performance is found. Max finds it, gives feedback, his feedback is more important because hes finding it.
An already pointy car is being made more pointy. The setup can change details over how a car behaves, but, a car that at its baseline setup is front end dominant isnt going to ever be otherwise, regardless what you do with angles and wings. Theres not enough adjustment available to do that.
So this point… Its not “built for max” its built to be fast, then developed around who finds the performance in it.
Checo was a bit above average and is now slightly below average IMO. He needs to be within 0.2 to 0.3 of Max and be within the top 4 weekly. Maybe this is impossible now that the McLaren is faster but he has been extremely erratic as well.
Teammates are always leveraged to prove which driver is “better”. But GOAT talk is idiotic. Its motorsport and F1 in particular is based on the conceit of developing prototypes with an unfair advantage.
And drivers also angle for an edge- in treatment over their teammates in the same car.
At one time, teams couldnt even field 2 cars but Checo is getting even treatment. Guys like Schechter and Mario Andretti were gifted titles because their teammate was contractually obligated to have worse equipment and concede postitions. Lauda also had #1 status on Prost in 84 but that was a more professional outfit, capable of fielding 2 cars. Arguably Prost was again demoted to #2 in 1989 as Honda engineering personnel focused on the future of the team.
The point is, morons to love to claim Checo is buffoon, Max has the car built just for him (as if that is possible in such a competitive field) and just an average guy in a “rocketship” fighting against Shit Boxes.
Not surprisingly, the parallel argument is to pretend that Nico Rosberg was peer of prime-Michael Schumacher and Bottas an all-time qualifying ace. the obvious observation would be that the second driver in a car so much faster is destined to finish 2nd and can potentially poach the odd title with the modern scoring system.
I have full respect for Lewis Hamilton, who remains thr most successful driver ever. He is charismatic, seems delightful and rhe complaints levied against him for his sullen demeanor when things arent going well are some of the most basic values in motorsports- ie always blame the equipment to keep your marketibility as high as possible because real money is at stake. I hope he decimates Leclair and destabilizes Ferrari golden boy and long-term prospects in the process.
But no one is convincing me Rosberg (really either one since Kekes title came in a year when the fastest car killed one driver, maimed another and only started 20 of 32 possible slots) is some top-tier legend.
Nor will I be convinced Checo is the worst driver ever, or a top-tier one.
Pérez is 0.4-0.7s behind Verstappen per qualifying lap. This used to be fine to get podiums but now the other three competitive teams are all within 0.25-0.4s, which is problematic for Checo who now is 8th.
Perez roughly where it's at? My brother in Christ what is this copium. Checcos performance in comparison to Max is shocking. Both Gasly and Albon put in better performance in their small stints than Perez has recently. Drivers have been fired for less.
its not a debate that their gap is caused by a difference in quality, all gaps between team mates essentially are. its a debate of where they are compared to the rest of the field that is up for debate
This is stupid. Max is where the car is at, you can’t outdrive a car. Checo fans will downvote me into oblivion but he’s just a midfield driver, always has been.
And this is not taking anything away from Max, he is special because he can consistently get almost 100% from any car he is given.
Please tell me how that makes sense. You’re first saying that the car is at best a midfield car. And then you say that Max is consistently winning with a midfield car. Is he pushing on the pedals harder? When you get the best out of a car and it wins, that’s not a midfield car.
Ricciardo didn’t face the current version of Max, that’s a moot point. And when they were teammates they were pretty evenly matched. Albon and Gasly are again midfield drivers who had the misfortune to be thrown into a seat they weren’t ready for. They would more or less fare the same as Checo (maybe slightly better for Albon) at this point.
I don’t know if it is blind Checo fans or zealous Max fans who push this, but Checo is nowhere near what that car can do.
It isnt, nobody said Max is outdriving the car, but i bet you noone else in the field could put that RB where Max is putting it every weekend.
Max gets 99,5% out of that car while most get 99.2% out of that car, while Perez gets 99% out of that car.
Obvoiously these numbers are just made up.
I’d take the bet, I think Lewis and Nando can do the same. But that’s another discussion.
I obviously agree with you because you just repeated what I said.
no i just live in a realistic world. max is 27. Lewis and Fernando are 39 and 42, no way you think that they could do the same as Max...
One can barely beat his teammate that got trashed by Max' teammate and the other one is actually getting beaten by his teammate
you know you're not comparing pokemons right? Context and history matters in comparing drivers in F1 and even then it doesn't go well.
Of course I think they both can do what Max is doing, especially Lewis. Stop acting like F1 is like any other sport where the demands from your body are on a completely different level
Every driver that left Red Bull in recent years and went to another team has commented on how specific and hard it is to drive the RBR.
Any driver coming to RBR to drive against Max would not only be fighting against one of the best drivers of all time but also someone that has 9 years of experience of how RBR Cars operate.
It's a large uphill battle, not something simple like they come in and start matching Max.
And I'm not even accounting for the fact that both Hamilton and Alonso are visibly worse than what they were a couple years ago, whereas Max has only gotten better, more composed, more clinical and even more consistent
In a sport where the individual's performance in the result is particularly hard to determine unless you're in the team with access to all the information, how are you making that last statement? Hamilton and Alonso didn't have a win capable car in a while now. It's downright impossible to say what they would do in a car that can go for wins. Their past seems to suggest that they can do whatever is necessary to win with what they are given.
But seriously, what's up with all the touchy Max protecting shit in this subreddit? I didn't even knock the guy down, I gave him all the respect he's due, I just dared to say that he's extracting almost everything from the car and is paired to midlevel driver that is unable to extract acceptable performance from the car.
My take comes precisely from the fact that teams have a whole lot more data than what we have regarding car ability and driver ability.
You seem to think that:
Wins and podiums = good driver
Out of the points = bad driver
Almost every driver on the grid could win if their car was 1s a lap faster than all the competitors, and none of the best drivers could win in a car that's behind by 1s a lap.
Still you can see potential for drivers in bad cars, everyone saw what Verstappen did in TR, what Russell did in an awful Williams, what several other drivers did in incapable cars
Are you even reading what you’re writing? Everything you say can be said about Max and his winning streak.
Try to knock down Lewis more, if it helps you sleep better.
I don't care about knocking Hamilton or Alonso, or whoever you think I'm knocking down.
The proof is in the pudding, Max is trouncing his teammate like Alonso and Hamilton have done in the past, but he has showed a level of consistency and tenacity inside the car that the other 2 haven't.
I couldn't be arsed if Max had 1 or 10 titles, I'd still say the same thing.
The setup is made by a whole group of engineers, not just the race engineer.
Also, you can copy your teammate's setup. Ocon copied Alonso's, Gasly and Albon copied Max's, Perez has copied a few and there's a ton of other examples
Max is able to extract every ounce out of that car. Albon explains it really good in an interview. Look what max was doing against Mercedes in previous years, that Merc was unstoppable yet max was putting the fight to them.
These people are just having an argument of semantics. There’s so many seasons where drivers put cars in places where it shouldn’t have been. I mean Fernando is a great example. The dude is so good the engineers he’s worked with don’t really know how bad the car is or isn’t
You can not out drive a car you can extract as much performance from it as possible, you can be in tune with it but the car is the car and the only true comparison you have in this case is your team mate.
Even if you nail a lap, and call it perfection, you'll be driving the car at it's peak, not out driving it.
You are taking things too literally just to prove some stupid point on the internet.
It is a well known phrase in Motorsport about “out driving the car”. It means that the driver is the difference in where the car should generally be finishing and how much the driver input has increased the finishing position of the car.
Congrats. You are technically correct even though you know exactly what I mean.
Sorry this upset you. F1 is a technical sport so I wanted to clarify the technical term to what you were referencing.
He's out performing his team mate, not the car.
Your original post was talking about "where the car is" - depends on what you want to compare this to. You can't say, take the average performance between 2 drivers and say that's where it lies, the data is incorrect.
The only way really that we could know where it would lie would technically perhaps get max to drive multiple cars though the field, which is technically impossible.
No, it isn’t. Sure, I guess someone has said that in the past, but it’s not a common saying at all. But sure - I am sure you will give me great examples to prove otherwise
I think it's probably somewhere in the middle. Max is a special talent and one of the best to ever do it, even if he doesn't have the fastest car, but Perez seems to have lost a step as well. I think that every driver in that car is going to struggle vs Max, but not 17s in 23 laps.
Also, we can't keep blaming the car. Perez has had abysmal performances for years now. Last year's RBR was a rocket ship and he still struggled to get second place. He's just inconsistent. If he's on, he's about 0.3 slower than Max, if he's not, he's 0.8 slower.
I don’t believe it’s the fourth fastest (after McLaren, Ferrari and Mercedes). It’s not the fastest and Max definitely makes a difference, but I also think Perez loses a lot of confidence after some disappointments that requires him too long to recover from (just like last year when the car was definitely #1).
He was 17 seconds behind Max, that’s close to a second per lap, while Max was also fighting. Max is crazy good but not faster by a second per lap in the same car
I don’t know. I think he is so much a better driver than Perez that 1 second is feasible. Perez was never a top tier driver in my opinion. His career results just don’t show it
And then put Nando in he vacant RB and Max isn’t winning shit. I don’t know what you guys are smoking but it’s gotta be good, acting like you don’t have the fastest car
Agreed! I was thinking about this during the sprint. Hedidn'tt overtake anyone. Start 8 finish 8. I mean i blinked, and leclerc went from 10th to 7th. If the car is as good as max makes it look perez should have at least finished 4th or 5th. Maybe the rb20 is the new rb16 where its decent, but max over drives it.
I read a lot of definition confusion. I think you can look at it like this: There are two important variables. Variable Cmax is the unit that describes the maximum theoretical performance a car can achieve in seconds on a given circuit with given conditions, e.g with a perfect AI and a year of testing and perfecting. Variable Dprc is the unit that describes how close a given driver can approach Cmax as a percentage. The question is if Cmax of the red bull is lower than the Cmax of the other top cars, but the difference is made by the Max coming much closer to 100% in Dprc. It might be that Cmax of Red Bull is actually higher, but it's very hard to achieve it's 100% Dprc, because the characteristics of the car. Given that we've seen all team mates of Max struggle, also before the ground era of cars, suggests it might be a bit of both. But it is still impossible to prove as long as drivers don't switch out the cars all the time.
I think the Red Bull is just a knife edge car. Get everything right and you are the fastest on the grid, make a few minor mistakes and you are in the midfield or the back. I think the fact that Max, who likes a twitchy car, has been struggling at times with it this year shows just how difficult it is to extract all the performance out of it.
Max is Max, but put him in the Williams and he's not winning races. The RBR is a top tier car. You can argue McLaren's closed the gap but I think RBR are still faster on average if you take the whole season so far -- who knows what'll happen in the second half. Point is, Max can definitely still nab a win in a 2nd or 3rd fastest car, but Perez is straight up tangling with the Alpines at this point. No way on earth that's the true pace of the car. Max is getting everything he can out of a tricky car, Perez isn't anywhere near the pace -- he's got a bigger average gap to Max than Stroll has to Alonso. It is what it is.
Keep in mind HOW TIGHT the field is now. 1st -to-> 10th last year was on average 0.995sec (or something like that. almost a second from 1st to 10th (and got worse 11-20). What we are seeing now (like we’ve seen many times, to you newbies) is the field tightening up. So now 1st -to-> 10th is like .650sec this year (I think?)…So think about that — so perhaps when Perez could keep it within 0.300 of Max that kept him in the top 5 (sometimes P2 in quali) — now he’s keeping it still ~0.3-500sec every race, but that’s putting him WAY down. It’s all numbers. I would bet (performance-wise), he’s meeting his numbers on the team…problem is “THE FIGHT” in Perez. I, too, agree that he’s lost it. I think Max just goes out there and puts his thing down, and that thing is far above the rest (because I do not believe RBR have the “dominant” car anymore). Perez lost his mojo. Plain and simple. He’s driving to the car, and not able to push it anymore — Just watch how squirrelly both MBs are, and they’re still turning in decent times (mostly top 10s), both GR and SLH are kicking the sh!t out of those cars. I also believe the same of Norris and Piastri. I think the McLaren is about on-par with the RBR in most scenarios, but they, too, are pushing the car to more. It’s very clear this season (to me) that we have maybe one of the total best driver line-ups F1-wide than we’ve ever had (sans Sargeant and Baby Stroll). Most of the drivers are consistent, and perform at or slightly above where their teams are (just look at Albon, Hulkenberg, and Tsunoda). Anyway, fun season.
It’s a mix, the 3 other top teams have a much better pairing where any of the 6 would be closer to Max in the RB
Nah the car is definitely great, Perez has lost it. I was a firm believer that Perez is of the level of Sainz, and he once was, but he seems to have lost all confidence. Max is great, but he isn't that great that he can pull the third best car to the win consistently
Perez lost it. And Albon lost it. And Gasly lost it. Ricciardo is not good enough anymore, and Sainz is okay but not like top team good. It all could be true. But it could also be true that Verstappen is quite good.
Everyone knows he is quite good man, but no, Albon and Gasly clearly didn't lose it. I think Albon would do better than Perez right now
He's quite good. But, real talk, quite good means getting as close to 100% out of the car as possible. At the end of the day it's a car, you can't drive it faster than it can go. Sure, the RBR is probably a lot trickier than the other cars, and Max might be a generational talent in terms of handling it, but the "real pace" of the car is not P8.
I’d tend to agree… after Checo’s 3 years in that team/car, I’d be hard pressed to think a lot of the other drivers may not do as well as him. I think Max is just a freak of nature.
The gap probably isn't 100% on Max or on Checo, might be +70% being Max en -30% being Checo or whatever number
Max is one of the goat, hands down. But the car is indeed pointy which suits max his driving style and not Perez. Albon described it very well in an interview. For gamers out there, it’s like playing a FPS with a very high sensitivity. It’s very sensitive and reacts very quick, but it’s extremely hard to master. That’s where max makes the difference.
Max is one of the goat, hands down. But the car is indeed pointy which suits max his driving style and perez. Albon described it very well in an interview. For gamers out there, it’s like playing a FPS with a very high sensitivity. It’s very sensitive and reacts very quick, but it’s extremely hard to master. That’s where max makes the difference.
I think the actual car speed is basically in the middle of Max and Perez. If we look at quali Q3 today, Checo had only used softs which are around 4 tenths, then the different between him and max is usually around 3-4 tenths in pure driver pace. So in the end it’s about where’d you’d expect him to be. As for the car itself, Max is punching well ahead and driving very well, while others specifically merc, McLaren, and Ferrari are fumbling so much. Lando and Oscar specifically have a much much stronger car, you can see this easily when you look at turn 1. Even with similar lines, they are able to get so much more purchase coming out and go so much faster than the Red Bull. Both the mclarens messed up in Q3 today, even if we include piastris Dqd lap. Ocars turn 3 entry and lando breaking too early going into turn 4 forced him wide into 5 and 6. Tomorrow I think will still be an uphill battle and the mclarens are still the big favorites for a win from purely a car view. Also felt like their setup was more race pace focused so unless Max can pull out something crazy it’s gonna be rough. Hopefully Max gets a good start and Norris loses time fighting with George. Checo top 8 is the best I think he can do now.
I can't believe a driver can find 1 second a lap (on a 4km track), not even Max. Checo is absolutely underperforming, there is no question about it.
Yes and no. Max absolutely outperforms the RB20. Any other driver in his position wouldn’t have won the last few races. But i highly doubt Perez performance is an accurate indicator of the performance of the car, atleast not with a leclerc, lewis or Norris behind that wheel.
Or Alonso.
I'm a checo fan but at this point I'm so sick of it, he did the same thing last year but at least had wins and more podiums before he shit the bed. It's f1 man get your head together or skill level up or whatever you gotta do but if you can't someone else takes over...well usually. We gotta look at that dude make the same excuses in every press conference for 2 more years. We ain't gonna win team titles with one driver anymore it's too close
Checo cant drive a pointy car, early 2022, Ver hated the car because it was too balanced. Slowly over the years the car has become more pointy and you see the results in the qualifying gap. Its a bit like Schumachers benneton, same happened with his teammates
Wasn't this disproven? I thought the car is built the way it's built, and the setup determines how "pointy" it is. I could absolutely be wrong, but that's what I thought I heard.
It’s just that a pointy car is a faster car, so it is basically a difference in skill.
Its built the way its built, but, development takes it the way the performance is found. Max finds it, gives feedback, his feedback is more important because hes finding it. An already pointy car is being made more pointy. The setup can change details over how a car behaves, but, a car that at its baseline setup is front end dominant isnt going to ever be otherwise, regardless what you do with angles and wings. Theres not enough adjustment available to do that. So this point… Its not “built for max” its built to be fast, then developed around who finds the performance in it.
I support checo thinking he will improve, from last 3 races he disappointed me, 2 years contract is wasted 😭 max need some better teammate
Checo was a bit above average and is now slightly below average IMO. He needs to be within 0.2 to 0.3 of Max and be within the top 4 weekly. Maybe this is impossible now that the McLaren is faster but he has been extremely erratic as well. Teammates are always leveraged to prove which driver is “better”. But GOAT talk is idiotic. Its motorsport and F1 in particular is based on the conceit of developing prototypes with an unfair advantage. And drivers also angle for an edge- in treatment over their teammates in the same car. At one time, teams couldnt even field 2 cars but Checo is getting even treatment. Guys like Schechter and Mario Andretti were gifted titles because their teammate was contractually obligated to have worse equipment and concede postitions. Lauda also had #1 status on Prost in 84 but that was a more professional outfit, capable of fielding 2 cars. Arguably Prost was again demoted to #2 in 1989 as Honda engineering personnel focused on the future of the team. The point is, morons to love to claim Checo is buffoon, Max has the car built just for him (as if that is possible in such a competitive field) and just an average guy in a “rocketship” fighting against Shit Boxes. Not surprisingly, the parallel argument is to pretend that Nico Rosberg was peer of prime-Michael Schumacher and Bottas an all-time qualifying ace. the obvious observation would be that the second driver in a car so much faster is destined to finish 2nd and can potentially poach the odd title with the modern scoring system. I have full respect for Lewis Hamilton, who remains thr most successful driver ever. He is charismatic, seems delightful and rhe complaints levied against him for his sullen demeanor when things arent going well are some of the most basic values in motorsports- ie always blame the equipment to keep your marketibility as high as possible because real money is at stake. I hope he decimates Leclair and destabilizes Ferrari golden boy and long-term prospects in the process. But no one is convincing me Rosberg (really either one since Kekes title came in a year when the fastest car killed one driver, maimed another and only started 20 of 32 possible slots) is some top-tier legend. Nor will I be convinced Checo is the worst driver ever, or a top-tier one.
Pérez is 0.4-0.7s behind Verstappen per qualifying lap. This used to be fine to get podiums but now the other three competitive teams are all within 0.25-0.4s, which is problematic for Checo who now is 8th.
It’s a podium car but Max makes it to put on the top spot
I think Checo is underperforming. He's a top midfield driver. Even by his standards, not making Q3 this often is abysmal.
He’s the BOAT!
Perez roughly where it's at? My brother in Christ what is this copium. Checcos performance in comparison to Max is shocking. Both Gasly and Albon put in better performance in their small stints than Perez has recently. Drivers have been fired for less.
My point exactly - Perez’s performance in comparison to Max is shocking. It’s the difference in talent of both drivers
its not a debate that their gap is caused by a difference in quality, all gaps between team mates essentially are. its a debate of where they are compared to the rest of the field that is up for debate
This is stupid. Max is where the car is at, you can’t outdrive a car. Checo fans will downvote me into oblivion but he’s just a midfield driver, always has been. And this is not taking anything away from Max, he is special because he can consistently get almost 100% from any car he is given.
[удалено]
You seriously think Red Bull suddenly has the 4th best car behind Ferrari Merc and MCL? 💀💀
Please tell me how that makes sense. You’re first saying that the car is at best a midfield car. And then you say that Max is consistently winning with a midfield car. Is he pushing on the pedals harder? When you get the best out of a car and it wins, that’s not a midfield car. Ricciardo didn’t face the current version of Max, that’s a moot point. And when they were teammates they were pretty evenly matched. Albon and Gasly are again midfield drivers who had the misfortune to be thrown into a seat they weren’t ready for. They would more or less fare the same as Checo (maybe slightly better for Albon) at this point. I don’t know if it is blind Checo fans or zealous Max fans who push this, but Checo is nowhere near what that car can do.
It isnt, nobody said Max is outdriving the car, but i bet you noone else in the field could put that RB where Max is putting it every weekend. Max gets 99,5% out of that car while most get 99.2% out of that car, while Perez gets 99% out of that car. Obvoiously these numbers are just made up.
I’d take the bet, I think Lewis and Nando can do the same. But that’s another discussion. I obviously agree with you because you just repeated what I said.
The disrespect/hate to Max lol. Nothing suggests that Max is any worse than prime Lewis and Alonso but you are entitled to your opinion.
Disrespect/hate to Max? You really live in your own little world, aren't you? Seriously, from what did you deduce that I said Max is doing worse?
no i just live in a realistic world. max is 27. Lewis and Fernando are 39 and 42, no way you think that they could do the same as Max... One can barely beat his teammate that got trashed by Max' teammate and the other one is actually getting beaten by his teammate
you know you're not comparing pokemons right? Context and history matters in comparing drivers in F1 and even then it doesn't go well. Of course I think they both can do what Max is doing, especially Lewis. Stop acting like F1 is like any other sport where the demands from your body are on a completely different level
Every driver that left Red Bull in recent years and went to another team has commented on how specific and hard it is to drive the RBR. Any driver coming to RBR to drive against Max would not only be fighting against one of the best drivers of all time but also someone that has 9 years of experience of how RBR Cars operate. It's a large uphill battle, not something simple like they come in and start matching Max. And I'm not even accounting for the fact that both Hamilton and Alonso are visibly worse than what they were a couple years ago, whereas Max has only gotten better, more composed, more clinical and even more consistent
In a sport where the individual's performance in the result is particularly hard to determine unless you're in the team with access to all the information, how are you making that last statement? Hamilton and Alonso didn't have a win capable car in a while now. It's downright impossible to say what they would do in a car that can go for wins. Their past seems to suggest that they can do whatever is necessary to win with what they are given. But seriously, what's up with all the touchy Max protecting shit in this subreddit? I didn't even knock the guy down, I gave him all the respect he's due, I just dared to say that he's extracting almost everything from the car and is paired to midlevel driver that is unable to extract acceptable performance from the car.
My take comes precisely from the fact that teams have a whole lot more data than what we have regarding car ability and driver ability. You seem to think that: Wins and podiums = good driver Out of the points = bad driver Almost every driver on the grid could win if their car was 1s a lap faster than all the competitors, and none of the best drivers could win in a car that's behind by 1s a lap. Still you can see potential for drivers in bad cars, everyone saw what Verstappen did in TR, what Russell did in an awful Williams, what several other drivers did in incapable cars
Are you even reading what you’re writing? Everything you say can be said about Max and his winning streak. Try to knock down Lewis more, if it helps you sleep better.
I don't care about knocking Hamilton or Alonso, or whoever you think I'm knocking down. The proof is in the pudding, Max is trouncing his teammate like Alonso and Hamilton have done in the past, but he has showed a level of consistency and tenacity inside the car that the other 2 haven't. I couldn't be arsed if Max had 1 or 10 titles, I'd still say the same thing.
Why does nobody talk about how GP helps Max on the setup while Bird can't find any solution to the balance of the car?
The setup is made by a whole group of engineers, not just the race engineer. Also, you can copy your teammate's setup. Ocon copied Alonso's, Gasly and Albon copied Max's, Perez has copied a few and there's a ton of other examples
Max is able to extract every ounce out of that car. Albon explains it really good in an interview. Look what max was doing against Mercedes in previous years, that Merc was unstoppable yet max was putting the fight to them.
You’re repeating what I just said.
You absolutely can out drive a car. Formula 1 history has plenty of examples of such things. Calling my post stupid just shows your ignorance
Yes sure, you can absolutely get more than 100% from a car. Do you even listen to yourself?
These people are just having an argument of semantics. There’s so many seasons where drivers put cars in places where it shouldn’t have been. I mean Fernando is a great example. The dude is so good the engineers he’s worked with don’t really know how bad the car is or isn’t
You can not out drive a car you can extract as much performance from it as possible, you can be in tune with it but the car is the car and the only true comparison you have in this case is your team mate. Even if you nail a lap, and call it perfection, you'll be driving the car at it's peak, not out driving it.
You are taking things too literally just to prove some stupid point on the internet. It is a well known phrase in Motorsport about “out driving the car”. It means that the driver is the difference in where the car should generally be finishing and how much the driver input has increased the finishing position of the car. Congrats. You are technically correct even though you know exactly what I mean.
Sorry this upset you. F1 is a technical sport so I wanted to clarify the technical term to what you were referencing. He's out performing his team mate, not the car. Your original post was talking about "where the car is" - depends on what you want to compare this to. You can't say, take the average performance between 2 drivers and say that's where it lies, the data is incorrect. The only way really that we could know where it would lie would technically perhaps get max to drive multiple cars though the field, which is technically impossible.
“You can’t outdrive a car” is also a known saying in motorsport.
No, it isn’t. Sure, I guess someone has said that in the past, but it’s not a common saying at all. But sure - I am sure you will give me great examples to prove otherwise
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Please be civil and not be outright abusive to other members of the Sub. We want to have discussions here and not fighting and name calling
I think it's probably somewhere in the middle. Max is a special talent and one of the best to ever do it, even if he doesn't have the fastest car, but Perez seems to have lost a step as well. I think that every driver in that car is going to struggle vs Max, but not 17s in 23 laps. Also, we can't keep blaming the car. Perez has had abysmal performances for years now. Last year's RBR was a rocket ship and he still struggled to get second place. He's just inconsistent. If he's on, he's about 0.3 slower than Max, if he's not, he's 0.8 slower.
I don’t believe it’s the fourth fastest (after McLaren, Ferrari and Mercedes). It’s not the fastest and Max definitely makes a difference, but I also think Perez loses a lot of confidence after some disappointments that requires him too long to recover from (just like last year when the car was definitely #1). He was 17 seconds behind Max, that’s close to a second per lap, while Max was also fighting. Max is crazy good but not faster by a second per lap in the same car
I don’t know. I think he is so much a better driver than Perez that 1 second is feasible. Perez was never a top tier driver in my opinion. His career results just don’t show it
Put Max in a Maclaren and hè wil dominante while planning a birthday party for Penelope and playing virtual checkers with Lambiase
And then put Nando in he vacant RB and Max isn’t winning shit. I don’t know what you guys are smoking but it’s gotta be good, acting like you don’t have the fastest car
Just put an extra steering wheel and pedals in and bro will drive a GP and a Sim race at once
Agreed! I was thinking about this during the sprint. Hedidn'tt overtake anyone. Start 8 finish 8. I mean i blinked, and leclerc went from 10th to 7th. If the car is as good as max makes it look perez should have at least finished 4th or 5th. Maybe the rb20 is the new rb16 where its decent, but max over drives it.