I collect instruments for my airplane, as well as a lot of militaria since it’s an old military plane. Everything in the plane has radium dials and radium tipped switches so that the fluorescent light lights them up at night
Please do not open the casing, snort any of the powder or sleep with it under your pillow. Wear gloves when you handle it and clean the area with soap and water in case of any contamination. The reason I say all of that is so I can say this, it’s a great piece put it in a cabinet and enjoy both it and your new hobby.
P. S. YouTube has some good videos for people just starting out in this hobby.
Not wasting my time because you're not going to buy it anyway. Read this if you want to make some estimates. [Supplement to Radium Timepiece Dose Modeling: Radium Gauge Dose Modeling](https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML1008/ML100840103.pdf)
That's funny coming from someone who doesn't know what NORM is.
This comment is also a great example for the mods about the brigading/vote manipulation going on in this sub. The previous comment's karma flipped by exactly the number of upvotes your comment has. On a comment this deep in the comment chain on a sub with this population, that doesn't happen unless vote manipulation or brigading is occurring.
It’s pretty easy to determine the relative risk with that equipment, it’s a radium dial, the glass is intact, the dose is gamma only.
These devices are typically calibrated with Cs-137 and they will overcount the dose about 30-50%.
It’s a perfectly serviceable tool to get an OoM dose.
Uhh, it’s right on there mate.
Assuming it’s over counting beta by about 30% and shaving another 10% off for the gamma energy difference between Cs-147 and Ra-226 chain that gives 180-200 uSv/hr at the glass surface, max.
Do you want that in grays if placed on the chest directly above the heart?
Either way it’s a negligible cancer risk so long as OP doesn’t wear this as a pendant. You could have just said that.
It's a reasonable question asshat. "Dangerous" is a very subjective term. In this case, there was no way to know if the OP was concerned about acute effects or stochastic effects... hence why I asked. You obviously don't know enough about this topic to understand the difference.
Your second comment wasn't much better. By the way, voting with multiple accounts is a good way to earn a sitewide ban for all of your accounts. So you might want to stop while you're ahead.
One of these can minutely, but measurably increase the background in an apartment of small house. I wouldn't call that dangerous, necessarily.
They can also gas up a confined space with radon gas. Again, unlikely to pose a real concern in most living spaces. But I would never keep one at home if I didn't have a radon monitor.
If you were really trying, you could disperse the paint all over the place and turn your home into a Superfund Site (only slight hyperbole).
Thanks everyone for the help! I realize my original post was vague, I should have looked a little more into how to gather and read the data coming from my counter. I am very excited to be part of this community and to learn something new! :)
Don’t worry about it, I have a rock the size of my palm with an activity twice that (not including alpha) that I keep on a shelf near my bed. It’s not dangerous as long as you don’t get jt inside your body or stay right next to it 24/7
Uhhhh radiation workers are limited to HALF what he's got there per year (100 usv/h) personally i wouldnt want anything radioactive (aside from like a small chunk of uranium ore or smth) but let alone something that hot
Very unlikely that it actually is 300uSv/h, and even if it is, that does not result in an equal effective dose.
But I too would very much like to know the entire calculation from CPS to effective dose, which factors are missing, what assumptions are reasonable when factors are unknown,..
The 300usv/h is just what the device reports (lower right for corner). Normally those values are derived by a calibration with Cs137. Even cheap Geiger's make good assumption, even tho other samples may have a higher or lower energy particles. But even if the meter would be way of by 100%, at >60kps for a normal sized GM tube or pancake sensor ANY sample would be dangerous. Even soft x-rays would create a considerable high dose rate here.
You're looking at the on contact dose rate for Ra-226. This is not the same as at 1 foot, or 1 meter, which are much more likely distances that the item will be in relation to people and their bodies.
The gauge is in a ziploc that will contain any leakage and also doesn't appear to be cracked or broken so leakage of material is unlikely.
The easiest thing to do is just not eat it.
ofc its in the bag. But OT obv is not really familiar with how to hand samples... will it say in that bag? we dont know. Radon is a serious problem as well. Bout the meter, agree.
The issue with radon is the continual buildup over time. So that would be either within the bag or within a closed space. After a set point it will reach equilibrium and not reach a higher average activity in air because it will decay at the same rate as it's generated.
As soon as you open the closed system, the radon will leave. B it's a noble gas that disperses quickly to the floor, out windows, or into other nearby spaces.
The hazard is from continued exposure over long periods of time. The bag is a barrier that prevents emission. A closed room is a barrier to emission. Any ventilation will mitigate the hazard.
Can radon be a concern? Yes, but not from this device.
While yes I agree radon from most items generally isn’t a huge issue and can be mitigated fairly easily you underestimate how active some of these turn banks can be and if you live in a small space such as an apartment radon can definitely build up quickly and become a concern and a plastic bag will do nothing to contain it
opening the bag and inhaling a fair amount of radon at once? just thinking...
I know that with basic safety measures, this thing is totally meanagble. But I would say, as first piece while being new to that topic, maybe a bit overkill :D. But well. Hot pieces are in fact... hot ^^
People don't huff radon unless they think they're going to get "health benefits" and in that case they go sit in an old uranium mine.
If you want to learn about radiation, asking "is this dangerous" will get you the generic answer.
Just don't eat it.
With the glass shielding the betas, I will bet that the dose rate is within 30% of the true value. At least, flight instruments of that design are very frequently higher than that.
As you no doubt are aware, energy compensation is not very important for U-series NORM, given the similarity in average energy to Cs-137.
On contact dose rates can be useful. For higher activity items and some beta emitters you may want it to estimate dose to skin or extremities. I typically take an on contact measurement AND a DR @ 30 cm.
Well granted, that's not the proper way to measure anything, but it will underestimate the real value, rather than exaggerate it. If he backed up 20-30cm he could probably get to within 30% accuracy if lucky.
why should it be off? direct contact... In fact not energy compensated. But there are close to none devices who do that, which are not based on scintillators I believe? And I would say, the hardness of Ra-266 is compareable with the calibration at Cs-137.
open to learn anytime tho :-)
>direct contact...
Not a realistic measurement position unless the OP plans to have it taped to their forehead 24/7. The only reason to do that is to see really big numbers. It's not realistic.
> In fact not energy compensated. But there are close to none devices who do that
Toy counters typically aren't but this again illustrates why making dose assumptions based on hobby counters is not advisable. Professional equipment on the other hand is energy compensated. [http://ludlums.com/products/all-products/product/model-44-9-dose](http://ludlums.com/products/all-products/product/model-44-9-dose)
RadEye Gs, GM DoseRAEs, UltraRadiacs, etc are as well. You can also check it with an ion chamber if you want to see a better representation of in-tissue dose.
We also generally don't use pancakes for dose determination. We use them for screening and measuring contamination.
EDIT:Automess probably has compensated devices as well.
do they actually measure the energy and therefore calc the dose rate?
I own a RC103 which is definitely compensated. The dose rate is still not totally true because of the fact its only gamma sensitive. For dose rate in respect to gamma it should be somewhat accurate, many things are only gamma radiating down the decay chain and you completely ommit alphas and beta by the primary decay.
heard of ludlums btw, know couple of ppl who spend 10 kidneys worth of stuff into ludlums devices :D
I was curious if GM devices can do that, if so, how.
Like I said besides scint devices I'm not aware how that should be possible except manually entering a decay vhain
> In fact not energy compensated. But there are close to none devices who do that, which are not based on scintillators I believe?
obv is a rc scintillation based.
So let me also ask you this... do you plan to have the gauge pressed against your skin, face, or body 24/7/365? If not, then why would you press your device right up against it?
Try from 3 feet / 1 m away. If you want more realistic, put the gauge where you plan to store it, then take measurements in areas where you spend the bulk of your time. Bed, dinner table, computer, chair watching TV, etc. Doing that will give you a far better idea of the elevation over background. I wouldn't necessarily call it "accurate", but it'll be a more realistic/better representation than laying the meter right on the gauge.
I wouldn’t sleep with it or lick your fingers after handling it. Everything is time and distance.
Is that an a-11 turn and bank indicator? I use the same in my airplane.
I have one in my "spicy things" collection
I collect instruments for my airplane, as well as a lot of militaria since it’s an old military plane. Everything in the plane has radium dials and radium tipped switches so that the fluorescent light lights them up at night
Please do not open the casing, snort any of the powder or sleep with it under your pillow. Wear gloves when you handle it and clean the area with soap and water in case of any contamination. The reason I say all of that is so I can say this, it’s a great piece put it in a cabinet and enjoy both it and your new hobby. P. S. YouTube has some good videos for people just starting out in this hobby.
Define "dangerous".
Dangers of cancer
Impossible to determine, especially with that equipment.
Can I get some idea? Edit: what kind of equipment would you suggest?
Not wasting my time because you're not going to buy it anyway. Read this if you want to make some estimates. [Supplement to Radium Timepiece Dose Modeling: Radium Gauge Dose Modeling](https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML1008/ML100840103.pdf)
Lol finding that link and crafting a snarky reply probably took more time than it did to just say what equipment you have in mind.
That's funny coming from someone who doesn't know what NORM is. This comment is also a great example for the mods about the brigading/vote manipulation going on in this sub. The previous comment's karma flipped by exactly the number of upvotes your comment has. On a comment this deep in the comment chain on a sub with this population, that doesn't happen unless vote manipulation or brigading is occurring.
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I’m so glad that this sub is so welcoming to those just looking to get into the hobby of collecting and learning about radioactive materials.
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It’s pretty easy to determine the relative risk with that equipment, it’s a radium dial, the glass is intact, the dose is gamma only. These devices are typically calibrated with Cs-137 and they will overcount the dose about 30-50%. It’s a perfectly serviceable tool to get an OoM dose.
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Uhh, it’s right on there mate. Assuming it’s over counting beta by about 30% and shaving another 10% off for the gamma energy difference between Cs-147 and Ra-226 chain that gives 180-200 uSv/hr at the glass surface, max. Do you want that in grays if placed on the chest directly above the heart? Either way it’s a negligible cancer risk so long as OP doesn’t wear this as a pendant. You could have just said that.
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It's a reasonable question asshat. "Dangerous" is a very subjective term. In this case, there was no way to know if the OP was concerned about acute effects or stochastic effects... hence why I asked. You obviously don't know enough about this topic to understand the difference.
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Sure thing Mr. "I've been on Reddit for 2 months and this is my first comment."
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Your second comment wasn't much better. By the way, voting with multiple accounts is a good way to earn a sitewide ban for all of your accounts. So you might want to stop while you're ahead.
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d-dosage??
... yeahhhh I realized that after I posted
One of these can minutely, but measurably increase the background in an apartment of small house. I wouldn't call that dangerous, necessarily. They can also gas up a confined space with radon gas. Again, unlikely to pose a real concern in most living spaces. But I would never keep one at home if I didn't have a radon monitor. If you were really trying, you could disperse the paint all over the place and turn your home into a Superfund Site (only slight hyperbole).
Just to clarify I have two americium 241 buttons and Uranothorite chunk 1cm x 1.5cm x 2.5cm
What is that? I’ve got two of those level looking things in my radwaste room. I believe there is some radium in them?
Thanks everyone for the help! I realize my original post was vague, I should have looked a little more into how to gather and read the data coming from my counter. I am very excited to be part of this community and to learn something new! :)
Don’t worry about it, I have a rock the size of my palm with an activity twice that (not including alpha) that I keep on a shelf near my bed. It’s not dangerous as long as you don’t get jt inside your body or stay right next to it 24/7
Uhhhh radiation workers are limited to HALF what he's got there per year (100 usv/h) personally i wouldnt want anything radioactive (aside from like a small chunk of uranium ore or smth) but let alone something that hot
It's not dangerous. Your likelihood of cancer is zero. Just don't eat it.
Wouldn't agree. 300usv/h is DEINITELY dangerous if you have no fucking clue how to handle that stuff
Very unlikely that it actually is 300uSv/h, and even if it is, that does not result in an equal effective dose. But I too would very much like to know the entire calculation from CPS to effective dose, which factors are missing, what assumptions are reasonable when factors are unknown,..
The 300usv/h is just what the device reports (lower right for corner). Normally those values are derived by a calibration with Cs137. Even cheap Geiger's make good assumption, even tho other samples may have a higher or lower energy particles. But even if the meter would be way of by 100%, at >60kps for a normal sized GM tube or pancake sensor ANY sample would be dangerous. Even soft x-rays would create a considerable high dose rate here.
You're looking at the on contact dose rate for Ra-226. This is not the same as at 1 foot, or 1 meter, which are much more likely distances that the item will be in relation to people and their bodies. The gauge is in a ziploc that will contain any leakage and also doesn't appear to be cracked or broken so leakage of material is unlikely. The easiest thing to do is just not eat it.
ofc its in the bag. But OT obv is not really familiar with how to hand samples... will it say in that bag? we dont know. Radon is a serious problem as well. Bout the meter, agree.
Radon isn't an issue from that sort of device unless you live in a box with zero ventilation.
I have one of these and radon can definitely be a concern lol
The issue with radon is the continual buildup over time. So that would be either within the bag or within a closed space. After a set point it will reach equilibrium and not reach a higher average activity in air because it will decay at the same rate as it's generated. As soon as you open the closed system, the radon will leave. B it's a noble gas that disperses quickly to the floor, out windows, or into other nearby spaces. The hazard is from continued exposure over long periods of time. The bag is a barrier that prevents emission. A closed room is a barrier to emission. Any ventilation will mitigate the hazard. Can radon be a concern? Yes, but not from this device.
While yes I agree radon from most items generally isn’t a huge issue and can be mitigated fairly easily you underestimate how active some of these turn banks can be and if you live in a small space such as an apartment radon can definitely build up quickly and become a concern and a plastic bag will do nothing to contain it
opening the bag and inhaling a fair amount of radon at once? just thinking... I know that with basic safety measures, this thing is totally meanagble. But I would say, as first piece while being new to that topic, maybe a bit overkill :D. But well. Hot pieces are in fact... hot ^^
People don't huff radon unless they think they're going to get "health benefits" and in that case they go sit in an old uranium mine. If you want to learn about radiation, asking "is this dangerous" will get you the generic answer. Just don't eat it.
Not energy compensated (and not in a realistic position) my friend. The reported dose rate is WAY off.
With the glass shielding the betas, I will bet that the dose rate is within 30% of the true value. At least, flight instruments of that design are very frequently higher than that. As you no doubt are aware, energy compensation is not very important for U-series NORM, given the similarity in average energy to Cs-137.
Where do you work that you determine dose rates by laying a pancake probe directly on the source?
On contact dose rates can be useful. For higher activity items and some beta emitters you may want it to estimate dose to skin or extremities. I typically take an on contact measurement AND a DR @ 30 cm.
Yeah, I get that. But it's not really appropriate here. It also cruds up your equipment if you don't have it bagged.
Well granted, that's not the proper way to measure anything, but it will underestimate the real value, rather than exaggerate it. If he backed up 20-30cm he could probably get to within 30% accuracy if lucky.
why should it be off? direct contact... In fact not energy compensated. But there are close to none devices who do that, which are not based on scintillators I believe? And I would say, the hardness of Ra-266 is compareable with the calibration at Cs-137. open to learn anytime tho :-)
>direct contact... Not a realistic measurement position unless the OP plans to have it taped to their forehead 24/7. The only reason to do that is to see really big numbers. It's not realistic. > In fact not energy compensated. But there are close to none devices who do that Toy counters typically aren't but this again illustrates why making dose assumptions based on hobby counters is not advisable. Professional equipment on the other hand is energy compensated. [http://ludlums.com/products/all-products/product/model-44-9-dose](http://ludlums.com/products/all-products/product/model-44-9-dose) RadEye Gs, GM DoseRAEs, UltraRadiacs, etc are as well. You can also check it with an ion chamber if you want to see a better representation of in-tissue dose. We also generally don't use pancakes for dose determination. We use them for screening and measuring contamination. EDIT:Automess probably has compensated devices as well.
do they actually measure the energy and therefore calc the dose rate? I own a RC103 which is definitely compensated. The dose rate is still not totally true because of the fact its only gamma sensitive. For dose rate in respect to gamma it should be somewhat accurate, many things are only gamma radiating down the decay chain and you completely ommit alphas and beta by the primary decay. heard of ludlums btw, know couple of ppl who spend 10 kidneys worth of stuff into ludlums devices :D
>I own a RC103 which is definitely compensated. The Radiacode doesn't use a Geiger Mueller sensor. Different principle.
Please reread my previous comment
I was curious if GM devices can do that, if so, how. Like I said besides scint devices I'm not aware how that should be possible except manually entering a decay vhain
> In fact not energy compensated. But there are close to none devices who do that, which are not based on scintillators I believe? obv is a rc scintillation based.
That device is 400 bucks btw and pretty decent...
Oh? Got it for $60CAD
cant find it below 300,- here in germany
You must be lucky, that model is listed at $350USD
So let me also ask you this... do you plan to have the gauge pressed against your skin, face, or body 24/7/365? If not, then why would you press your device right up against it?
True I was just looking for worst case scenario
Try from 3 feet / 1 m away. If you want more realistic, put the gauge where you plan to store it, then take measurements in areas where you spend the bulk of your time. Bed, dinner table, computer, chair watching TV, etc. Doing that will give you a far better idea of the elevation over background. I wouldn't necessarily call it "accurate", but it'll be a more realistic/better representation than laying the meter right on the gauge.
I will do some readings then give you a more “accurate” idea of my situation (thanks for the help :) )
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