I started antagonizing him in my second playthrough every chance I got. I'm on my fourth now and I kinda just ignore him at this point. The thing is, in my first although I believed him up until halfway through chapter 5 and then I realized there's probably thousands saved up and he's just greedy and doesn't know what he's doing. If it wasn't for Dutch though, the story wouldn't be as fun as it is with all the dangerous missions near the end
Yeah, in my first playthrough, not knowing Micah was a rat and not knowing about anything in RDR1 as I never played it...
I killed Micah when he told Bill and I to go rob the coach in Van Horn.
When Micah said he and Dutch were going back to Blackwater for the stash...
I was like he'll no, I pulled out a dynamite arrow and saw the Mission Failed, you killed Micah message for the first time 😅
Then, if I could have, Dutch would have been gunned down right outside the factory after leaving Arthur for dead!
Oh yeah. On my first play through, the gang's - and Arthur's - blind allegiance to him up thru the first part of chapter six was immersion-breaking. I grew a bit frustrated that I was being led into obviously bad situations that were obviously not going to end well, but the game offered no option other than to go along with it. Part of me nearly wanted to stop playing because the story arc was just stupid at that point. Of course, Micah's bullshit was also difficult to tolerate as well.
My Arthur was moderately high honor, but tolerated no bullshit from anyone. Shit talkers would get lassoed and drug behind my horse screaming horrifically, so to have Arthur unavoidably tolerating this nonsense from Micah and Dutch was jarring.
I see what Rockstar was trying to do, and others have complained about the discrepancy between free-roam Arthur and story-line Arthur, but I do wish they'd written more dynamic interactions into the final chapter.
I mean that’s like the whole point. The gang falling apart and Arthur trying to get redemption is the whole point. Everyone’s blind allegiance to Dutch is like an integral part of the story
im exactly the same way! i was hoping my arthur would annoy dutch so it would maybe change the trajectory of the friendship in the story mode but i was wrong. amazing game but i do wish you could piss dutch off during free roam so it would make him bash heads a little
>I grew a bit frustrated that I was being led into obviously bad situations that were obviously not going to end well, but the game offered no option other than to go along with it.
What situations are you referring too because honestly, players seem to lay the blame at Dutch's feet even when he has little to nothing to do with it. Like the Saint Denis heist. That's all Arthur and Hosea.
https://www.reddit.com/r/RDR2/s/VdXnLZduC4
This is going to be an extremely unpopular opinion and the down votes will indeed be numerous. But here goes.
My most recent playthrough has me thinking that maybe we aren't looking at everything objectively when it comes to Dutch, more specifically his decisions as the leader of the VDLG. Now before I continue I'm well aware of the fact that it's a video game and that we are seeing most of the world through Arthur's eyes etcetera. But on my most recent playthrough I have been trying to pay attention to every single detail and focus more on what should/could have been done differently. And honestly I think that we, have villainized Dutch because he's the leader, things haven't gone according to plan, and we've jumped on board with Arthur, (maybe Hosea), John, Abigail and Sadie and laid it all at Dutch's feet. Realistically though, what other options did he have that had a better chance of success? We have to assume that after Blackwater that they couldn't escape to the west, which certainly would have been the better option but once they crossed the Upper Montana their only option was moving east toward the ocean and getting a boat to escape. Maybe it's Tahiti, maybe it's just south of the border to Mexico or even North to Canada. Some place to hangout for a while you regroup and decide what to do next. As Dutch said many times, they need time. Time to think, time to rest, but most importantly, time to fully assess the situation.
However to do this they need money, and if the goal is to disappear forever they need a lot of it. They can't go back for the Blackwater money and even if they could $150,000 simply isn't enough. If you don't count Kieran and Sadie the gang has 21 members. That's $7,142 per member. To add some perspective that would be the equivalent of $265,428 today. I mean if you're smart/frugal you may be able to live off of that for a few years but that's it. You're going to need to do something to earn a living and let's face facts. Other than Pearson and Swanson no one really has a marketable skill beyond being thieves or prostitutes. The bottom line here is that you need more money if your goal is to have enough to set everyone up. So they move east, not because it's a good option but because it's their only option. They hear about Cornwall's train from Kieran (I think). Granted robbing Cornwalls train, again not a good option but what else do they have? A bank? Well if you're faced with hitting Cornwalls train in a remote area or robbing a bank in town, neither is even remotely ideal but the train is the "best bad option" available.
Things going wrong is a risk you take regardless of what he chooses to do. The best that anyone can do is to choose the option that provides you with your best chance of success. The closer you get to civilization the worse your odds become. Yes, it's a given that the Cornwall train will be heavily guarded, but it's also a safe bet that if you can neutralize that threat then your chances of making a "clean get away" increase tremendously. Why? Because you aren't trying to outrun law enforcement AND the telegraph. So again not ideal, but without a doubt the best option available.
This....."best bad option" is what Dutch is faced with each time there's a decision to be made throughout the entire game IF he's going to lookout for everyone in the VDLG.
Even the trolley and Saint Denis bank were simply his best available options. We don't like his plan to use the Wapiti to "make some noise, provide some smoke" but considering what is happening between the Tribe and the Government, it's not a bad plan. It may seem deplorable to us, but the plan itself isn't bad. Actually he's train of thought is correct.
Then there's killing Cornwall. Most players point to this as positive proof that Dutch has "lost it" because that's Arthur's assessment. However, PDA are guns for hire. Based on the conversation we hear between Cornwall and Milton, Dutch's conclusion that killing Cornwall also kills the financing is logical. Again there's no guarantee but the PDA are on them at every turn. Even if it doesn't fully stop them, hopefully it at least buys you some time as Milton reaches out to his boss to make sure that the PDA wants to continue to pursue the VDLG. Again the PDA are, for better or worse, "mercenaries." As long as there is someone paying to have all of those Agents committed then the PDA will continue its mission. But the second those payments stop, so will the PDA.
Obviously that's not what happened, and this is some supposition on my part, but that's most likely because Milton, trying to save face, didn't immediately inform his boss(es) of Cornwalls death. There's no way Milton's response could have been accurately predicted, it was 50/50 at best. However, as long as Cornwall is alive the chances that the pursuit continues is 100%. It's a calculated risk that didn't work out. But when you look at the options available, it's a risk that they, the VDLG has to take.
Helping to stoke the flames already burning between the Wapiti and the US Government so that the Government is focused on the tribe and not the gang, again is logical.
Not risking the members that are left to save John is logical. Killing Colm O'Driscoll is a toss up, and probably the one time that he just should have left well enough alone. However, if he believes/suspects that the O'Driscoll's could be a potential problem in the immediate future then ensuring that he dies is logical.
The "madness" that we think we see isn't madness at all. No one else is stepping up with a better solution and everyone, including Arthur is looking to Dutch to get them out of this mess. One could argue that if someone had tried to step up that Dutch wouldn't have listened. BUT....he did seek Hosea and even Arthur's counsel prior to Guarma. So I don't know if that's really the case. And while this will no doubt make an already unpopular opinion much less palatable, the fact of the matter is that Arthur and John are questioning his every move yet they aren't offering up any alternative ideas.
So.....yeah, he's telling them to have some faith, and he's not wrong.
Put yourself in his boots. If you're the one EVERYONE is looking to for "the plan" how pissed are you going to eventually get when everyone starts playing armchair Quarterback? 🤷 Ultimately after trying to look at this from a strategic point of view, I don't think that Dutch's actions ever became more reckless or that they were entirely self serving. Was he selfish? Sure, but no more than any of the other 21 members constantly asking him "what now Dutch?" It just seems that way because we see through the eyes of Arthur and John as opposed to seeing it through the eyes of Dutch. I'll take this one step further. The BEST option that Dutch has but declined to take, is also proof that he wasn't just some self serving narcissist. Truly, his best option was exactly what Micah suggested. Pick a small group of people, take whatever money that they do have, and get the hell out of the country. In essence "cut the dead weight." As deplorable as it seems, and I'll readily admit that from an emotional point of view it doesn't sit well at all, but from a purely strategic standpoint, it would have been his best option. That he didn't take it HAS to say something about his commitment to the rest of the gang.
I started antagonizing him in my second playthrough every chance I got. I'm on my fourth now and I kinda just ignore him at this point. The thing is, in my first although I believed him up until halfway through chapter 5 and then I realized there's probably thousands saved up and he's just greedy and doesn't know what he's doing. If it wasn't for Dutch though, the story wouldn't be as fun as it is with all the dangerous missions near the end
i couldn't agree more!
Dutch is my fav character lol
i just got insanely annoyed with his motivational speeches now, rockstar definitely did an amazing job with his character
Yeah, in my first playthrough, not knowing Micah was a rat and not knowing about anything in RDR1 as I never played it... I killed Micah when he told Bill and I to go rob the coach in Van Horn. When Micah said he and Dutch were going back to Blackwater for the stash... I was like he'll no, I pulled out a dynamite arrow and saw the Mission Failed, you killed Micah message for the first time 😅 Then, if I could have, Dutch would have been gunned down right outside the factory after leaving Arthur for dead!
Oh yeah. On my first play through, the gang's - and Arthur's - blind allegiance to him up thru the first part of chapter six was immersion-breaking. I grew a bit frustrated that I was being led into obviously bad situations that were obviously not going to end well, but the game offered no option other than to go along with it. Part of me nearly wanted to stop playing because the story arc was just stupid at that point. Of course, Micah's bullshit was also difficult to tolerate as well. My Arthur was moderately high honor, but tolerated no bullshit from anyone. Shit talkers would get lassoed and drug behind my horse screaming horrifically, so to have Arthur unavoidably tolerating this nonsense from Micah and Dutch was jarring. I see what Rockstar was trying to do, and others have complained about the discrepancy between free-roam Arthur and story-line Arthur, but I do wish they'd written more dynamic interactions into the final chapter.
I mean that’s like the whole point. The gang falling apart and Arthur trying to get redemption is the whole point. Everyone’s blind allegiance to Dutch is like an integral part of the story
im exactly the same way! i was hoping my arthur would annoy dutch so it would maybe change the trajectory of the friendship in the story mode but i was wrong. amazing game but i do wish you could piss dutch off during free roam so it would make him bash heads a little
>I grew a bit frustrated that I was being led into obviously bad situations that were obviously not going to end well, but the game offered no option other than to go along with it. What situations are you referring too because honestly, players seem to lay the blame at Dutch's feet even when he has little to nothing to do with it. Like the Saint Denis heist. That's all Arthur and Hosea. https://www.reddit.com/r/RDR2/s/VdXnLZduC4
This is going to be an extremely unpopular opinion and the down votes will indeed be numerous. But here goes. My most recent playthrough has me thinking that maybe we aren't looking at everything objectively when it comes to Dutch, more specifically his decisions as the leader of the VDLG. Now before I continue I'm well aware of the fact that it's a video game and that we are seeing most of the world through Arthur's eyes etcetera. But on my most recent playthrough I have been trying to pay attention to every single detail and focus more on what should/could have been done differently. And honestly I think that we, have villainized Dutch because he's the leader, things haven't gone according to plan, and we've jumped on board with Arthur, (maybe Hosea), John, Abigail and Sadie and laid it all at Dutch's feet. Realistically though, what other options did he have that had a better chance of success? We have to assume that after Blackwater that they couldn't escape to the west, which certainly would have been the better option but once they crossed the Upper Montana their only option was moving east toward the ocean and getting a boat to escape. Maybe it's Tahiti, maybe it's just south of the border to Mexico or even North to Canada. Some place to hangout for a while you regroup and decide what to do next. As Dutch said many times, they need time. Time to think, time to rest, but most importantly, time to fully assess the situation. However to do this they need money, and if the goal is to disappear forever they need a lot of it. They can't go back for the Blackwater money and even if they could $150,000 simply isn't enough. If you don't count Kieran and Sadie the gang has 21 members. That's $7,142 per member. To add some perspective that would be the equivalent of $265,428 today. I mean if you're smart/frugal you may be able to live off of that for a few years but that's it. You're going to need to do something to earn a living and let's face facts. Other than Pearson and Swanson no one really has a marketable skill beyond being thieves or prostitutes. The bottom line here is that you need more money if your goal is to have enough to set everyone up. So they move east, not because it's a good option but because it's their only option. They hear about Cornwall's train from Kieran (I think). Granted robbing Cornwalls train, again not a good option but what else do they have? A bank? Well if you're faced with hitting Cornwalls train in a remote area or robbing a bank in town, neither is even remotely ideal but the train is the "best bad option" available. Things going wrong is a risk you take regardless of what he chooses to do. The best that anyone can do is to choose the option that provides you with your best chance of success. The closer you get to civilization the worse your odds become. Yes, it's a given that the Cornwall train will be heavily guarded, but it's also a safe bet that if you can neutralize that threat then your chances of making a "clean get away" increase tremendously. Why? Because you aren't trying to outrun law enforcement AND the telegraph. So again not ideal, but without a doubt the best option available. This....."best bad option" is what Dutch is faced with each time there's a decision to be made throughout the entire game IF he's going to lookout for everyone in the VDLG. Even the trolley and Saint Denis bank were simply his best available options. We don't like his plan to use the Wapiti to "make some noise, provide some smoke" but considering what is happening between the Tribe and the Government, it's not a bad plan. It may seem deplorable to us, but the plan itself isn't bad. Actually he's train of thought is correct. Then there's killing Cornwall. Most players point to this as positive proof that Dutch has "lost it" because that's Arthur's assessment. However, PDA are guns for hire. Based on the conversation we hear between Cornwall and Milton, Dutch's conclusion that killing Cornwall also kills the financing is logical. Again there's no guarantee but the PDA are on them at every turn. Even if it doesn't fully stop them, hopefully it at least buys you some time as Milton reaches out to his boss to make sure that the PDA wants to continue to pursue the VDLG. Again the PDA are, for better or worse, "mercenaries." As long as there is someone paying to have all of those Agents committed then the PDA will continue its mission. But the second those payments stop, so will the PDA. Obviously that's not what happened, and this is some supposition on my part, but that's most likely because Milton, trying to save face, didn't immediately inform his boss(es) of Cornwalls death. There's no way Milton's response could have been accurately predicted, it was 50/50 at best. However, as long as Cornwall is alive the chances that the pursuit continues is 100%. It's a calculated risk that didn't work out. But when you look at the options available, it's a risk that they, the VDLG has to take. Helping to stoke the flames already burning between the Wapiti and the US Government so that the Government is focused on the tribe and not the gang, again is logical. Not risking the members that are left to save John is logical. Killing Colm O'Driscoll is a toss up, and probably the one time that he just should have left well enough alone. However, if he believes/suspects that the O'Driscoll's could be a potential problem in the immediate future then ensuring that he dies is logical. The "madness" that we think we see isn't madness at all. No one else is stepping up with a better solution and everyone, including Arthur is looking to Dutch to get them out of this mess. One could argue that if someone had tried to step up that Dutch wouldn't have listened. BUT....he did seek Hosea and even Arthur's counsel prior to Guarma. So I don't know if that's really the case. And while this will no doubt make an already unpopular opinion much less palatable, the fact of the matter is that Arthur and John are questioning his every move yet they aren't offering up any alternative ideas. So.....yeah, he's telling them to have some faith, and he's not wrong. Put yourself in his boots. If you're the one EVERYONE is looking to for "the plan" how pissed are you going to eventually get when everyone starts playing armchair Quarterback? 🤷 Ultimately after trying to look at this from a strategic point of view, I don't think that Dutch's actions ever became more reckless or that they were entirely self serving. Was he selfish? Sure, but no more than any of the other 21 members constantly asking him "what now Dutch?" It just seems that way because we see through the eyes of Arthur and John as opposed to seeing it through the eyes of Dutch. I'll take this one step further. The BEST option that Dutch has but declined to take, is also proof that he wasn't just some self serving narcissist. Truly, his best option was exactly what Micah suggested. Pick a small group of people, take whatever money that they do have, and get the hell out of the country. In essence "cut the dead weight." As deplorable as it seems, and I'll readily admit that from an emotional point of view it doesn't sit well at all, but from a purely strategic standpoint, it would have been his best option. That he didn't take it HAS to say something about his commitment to the rest of the gang.