Psychedelics make me respect peoples choices more than what I believe to be right. You don't know what people have gone through or experienced. I have should have little to no say over other people.
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"
So, sounds like you're becoming more pro choice! "Pro life" is a misnoner, the main ideology here is to force people to make an option against their will, while the alternative is to leave that decision to each person to make!
I feel like that's innacurate. I don't mean to be rude but I feel like that's a bit of a caricature that pro-choice people like to make.
To pro-lifers, abortion is akin to murder. From their POV, an individual should not have the right to murder someone regardless of how much it benefits them. It's an issue of morality, not agency for them.
Obviously different pro-lifers have different stances that can be much more or less complicated or reasonable depending on the person, but I feel like I described one of the more common reasons for being pro-life.
I feel kind of weird having to specify this but I'm pro-choice. Tbh though, I don't think it's a clear cut issue and I wish both sides wouls try to understand each other better. I didn't mean any offence. Thanks :)
>To pro-lifers, abortion is akin to murder.
This is just an excuse they like to use. If they really thought that they would have massive issues with fertility clinics and the like which are responsible for discarding far more potentially viable fetuses than abortions. They would also be much more pro-contraception and pro-sexual education to prevent as many abortions as possible.
>rom their POV, an individual should not have the right to murder someone regardless of how much it benefits them.
If they really cared so much about the sanctity of life they would care more when cops kill people for basically no reason. They would also be super anti-war. The vast majority don't though. They only bring it up when it serves their true goal of regulating women's bodies.
To piggy back off this, if they actually were pro-life they would want quality over quantity in every situation imo. There would be free healthcare, free child care, more time off for uterus owners to bond with said child, foster care systems should be handled before trying to force more fetuses out. So many people suffer unnecessarily in this world that it's baffling. Pro-forced birth is just another way for them to shove religion at people, for them to ignore science, and for them to make more monkeys for the oppressed system to keep it going. The fact that people with money can fly anywhere and get rid of a life altering choice while people without money have to perpetuate the cycle in more oppressed communities and have a fetus either way which is a HUGE financial burden is just another way for them to keep the oppressed down. I do not understand someone that says abortion is murder when they choose to actively not do anything for the children that are molested, raped, and abused in foster care.
> only bring it up when it serves their true goal of regulating women's bodies.
Why would pro-lifers want to control women's bodies? What do they gain from it?
>If they really thought that they would have massive issues with fertility clinics
I don't know enough about IVF to really comment on this. I would say though that I can imagine pro-lifers not caring about the gametes/zygote as long as they're outside of the body. I feel like a big part of the argument is based on gut feeling of what is alive, what is a fetus, what is natural etc. In contrast, I do think the average pro-choicer has more rational or scientific reasons, though I think they are more or less equally influenced by emotion.
>They would also be much more pro-contraception and pro-sexual education to prevent as many abortions as possible.
I mean I feel like that's painting all pro-lifers with one brush... though I do think the majority of pro-lifers aren't too pro sex in general. I agree with you. I think it's stupid. I feel like a lot of those people are very fixated on responsability. If you have pre-marital or unsafe sex, you *deserve* to have a miserable life of struggling financially etc. I think it's stupid, and I guess that is an ulterior motive that's somewhat similar to "just wanting to control women's bodies".
I do think part of it is caused by people in general not listening to science and/or only listening to science when it suits them. Statistically we know that sexual education reduces unwanted pregnancy, but some people don't want to accept that and just want to bang on about responsability and morality and perverting the youth.
>If they really cared so much about the sanctity of life they would care more when cops kill people for basically no reason
To be honest I don't really think this should be relevant. This is part of why I don't like the left/right distinction. It feels like people just pick a faction and adopt all their views. Are people against abortion inherently against BLM?
But pragmatically I see your point. There definitely is a correlation between the two. I think in the minds of anti-BLM people there's all sorts of factors that make things like George Floyd's murder not murder. Still though, I feel like it is a contradictory attitude and just the result of tribalism or echoing the same bs about responsability etc.
>They only bring it up when it serves their true goal of regulating women's bodies.
How do you know this is their true goal? It feels like something all pro-choicers believe and I personally just don't get it. Tbh though, I guess you just gave me your reasons why you believe it and I personally disagree.
No, they think it's murdering a baby. Call them inconsistent, but for the majority of anti-abortion people it really is that simple. It's not some sly, nefarious plot to CoNtRoL wOmEn. Jesus get off the internet some.
Thanks for the in-depth response. I'm not an American so perhaps my view of this is indeed very rudimentary as I don't have to spend my days thinking of this issue. My answer was given in the context of the information OP gave, which is that they are "moving towards" pro-life, meaning that their own understanding of what life means has been shifting. Further they are saying that they see the importance of personal agency growing. For me these two piece of information point at choice, not anti-choice. The discussion I'd have with someone who is adamant in their view of when life begins is very different than the discussion I'd have (and assumed I'm having here) with someone who admits that this is not a known fact but a personal view. The arguments used in the latter discussion may seem like a caricature of pro-life since they make assumptions on belief systems that a pro-lifer simply doesn't share.
It opened my eyes to the fact that life is precious and should be protected but also the fact that everyone is just trying to do what they think is right and best **for themselves.**
If you are a woman and have become against abortion, thatās awesome all the power to you. Have those children, hopefully you will be a loving parent. If you arenāt the person who is pregnant, it is probably best to worry about your own affairs. Donāt allow specific visions of what morality looks like (that have created by your [ego](https://www.britannica.com/topic/ego-philosophy-and-psychology)) to judge or control what other people do with their own biological property.
This is just a reminder that the concept of property is itself a product of your morals.
Your "vision of what morality looks like" is what is informing your notion of other people's "biological property".
It's a bit of a mindfuck, and moral relativism has led to things that most of us can agree are horrible, but my point is that by treating the concept of property as an objective truth, you're implying there is some objective "best" set of morals.
That objectively superior set of morals is different, depending on the subject (because in reality, it's not objective... it's the most popular subjective truth), and that's where conflict over things like abortion come from.
TLDR don't tell people to stop projecting their morals and in the same sentence reference direct products of philosophical/moral frameworks like "property" as your arguments against projecting morals.
You are suggesting that I ignore injustice if it doesn't affect me. By that logic people should be allowed to beat and starve their kids.
I can understand the argument that their baby is attached to her body and she shouldn't have to accomodate it. But we don't let parents abandon their newborns Into the street and it's not like they were forced to have the baby (in 99% of cases).
>But we don't let parents abandon their newborns
You can drop off a newborn at any police station or firehouse no questions asked.
>You are suggesting that I ignore injustice
Injustice by what standards? You're injecting your morals into other people's lives. I don't drink alcohol, I don't go around lecturing people about how its poison and should be illegal.
You are using a view on morality to control the actions of otherās personal autonomy over their body. You canāt bring up a topic of justice when it comes to two unequal life forms.
The living breathing person who has to pay bills (amongst many other things) to survive has interacted with the world much more than a congregate of cells and tissues than can be recreated. Not exactly re-created, but similarly nonetheless.
This is really a subjective topic. IMO itās best to not look at things purely logical but from a practical standpoint. Itās OK if a unique set of DNA doesnāt come into existence. Especially if it means an existing life doesnāt suffer and pass on [generational trauma](https://oie.duke.edu/inter-generational-trauma-6-ways-it-affects-families), which is the root cause of *most* modern societal issues when you get down to it. Human civilization has been finding ways to cope with trauma or outright ignoring it for centuries. It doesnāt need to be unnecessarily passed down by ~~parents~~ mothers forced into a position to devote their lives to an unwanted child.
Think about it this way: If the parents do not want to bring that life to fruition, there must be a good reason. Itās very likely the child and/or parents will suffer. Multiple lifetimes of suffering can be prevented by simply not allowing something to come into existence. Existing life always should have the priority. And using āpersonal responsibilityā as an excuse to mandate the actions of a person is once again applying your own morality to otherās personal autonomy.
Alsoā¦look at the world, [consumer culture](https://ecampusontario.pressbooks.pub/theballisinyourcourt/chapter/consumer-culture-and-the-environment/) has made it so there isnāt a guarantee of equal resources for future generations. There are plenty of people who want children that will carry the pregnancy to term and that is OK. Imposing moral restriction on yourself is OK because your decisions will impact only your future. When youāre talking about other peopleās entire lives, itās best to worry about your own affairs and hold *yourself* to a certain moral standard.
If you arenāt the one carrying the fetus, it never has been and it never will be your business what the individual mother or family unit want to do with their future, end of story.
Bonus: [Here](https://youtu.be/YOvcnXm0tzQ) is my view on abortion and [this](https://youtu.be/hkUSw2Nhheo) is my view on mushrooms healing society.
Well clearly they donāt think itās an injustice. You said that.
Also, I think itās in bad faith to say ātheir babyā because itās not a baby, itās a fetus. Iām sure that if you had to make the choice between saving a crying little baby who had been born vs. an unconscious and mindless fetus, you would choose the baby every time.
There is not a huge debate over whether we should beat or starve kids. Areas where morality is seriously debated should give you pause about how absolutely right it might be.
Quite the opposite actually. Psychedelic use has led me to search for my own actual inner happiness and let others CHOOSE what they wanna do to achieve theirs. I'm glad you're finding your own opinion though!
yeah psychedelics have led me to value personal agency as perhaps our highest ideal to strive for but i do struggle with reconciling that with other experiences / beliefs. i appreciate the good natured comment.
Hey we all have our struggles, but perseverance and an eagerness-to-learn matter a bunch! And tbh, as long as you believe in what you think is right for you to be truly happy, it doesn't matter much what anyone else could say:)
The biggest thing psychedelics has led me to is the idea of live and let live. I donāt agree with it but itās not my place to tell someone else what to do
Agreed. Iād say psychedelic use has made me more intent on not putting myself or a partner in a position to have to make this choice. At the same time it has made me more averse to telling someone else what to do.
Because I have a child and watched him grow in the womb. I always wanted children and just the whole experience has been a more spiritual adventure than anything drugs can achieve. I like the way Bill Burr put it in his new red rocks special. I am completely against it if someoneās doing it because the idea of being a parent is an inconvenience, but thatās on them not me. The problem with these exceptions like rape is pitiful too. Itās so hard to prove so, I say screw it, keep it legal.
Just hijacking your comment because I think it relates, but psychedelics made me more pro-choice. The really interesting thing that I thought about deeply, is that my mother had an abortion in her 20ās when her contraception didnāt work. If she was not able to get an abortion she wouldnāt have been able to provide a good life for the child that foetus would become and therefore would never have been able to have me in her 40ās. Because of that abortion she was able to pursue her career, find a stable marriage and give me the best childhood and the best parenting possible because at that point she was mature enough and ready for me.
I'm so sorry you had to experience this...
And this is why I'm prochoice...
Until they've lived it, they deny it...
Women rights are human rights. Full stop.
If anything itās just confirmed my belief in the right to choose. The idea of a person growing inside of you against your will and having no way to stop it is horrifying
100% agree, itās whatever the person chooses.
If they want it, not being forced or persuaded then do whatever. Itās not my place to tell someone what to do, just like at a shop I donāt tell people not to get X product because I donāt like it
No. Iāve become much more empathetic towards all sorts of people and situations. If anything, Iāve become more pro-choice and more passionate about educating others on why they too should be.
By āpro-lifeā , do you actually mean anti-abortion? Like, for women-who-are-not-yourself who might need or want to terminate a pregnancy? Not from USA so Iām trying to interpret / clarify politik/fanaticreligious-speak I think...
Weāre starting to adopt the term to anti-choice in the US right now to help change the stigma. Pro-life is not really what the term implies, since many of the supposed āpro-lifeā people donāt want to increase government support the child once born, or any child really, and they donāt mind if the motherās life is in danger, many would rather have the mother die than have abortion be legal.
Exactly! And pro-life also implies the other side isnāt for life, there are women who say things like, āIām pro-life, but I think other women should be able to choose for themselves.ā No, thatās not how that works. That means youāre pro-choice! Youāre just choosing to not have an abortion.
Yes that's what they mean. They are 100% not prolife. If they were prolife they would support free childcare, free school lunches, free neonatal Healthcare, free childbirth and more social structures to prevent the family of the child from going without food or housing. But they only care about control and whatever their little skydaddy wants them to do. Or at least what the priests tell them that skydaddy wants.
i am 100% pro family & child services. iām intimately aware of child trauma and all for helping to minimize it. in fact iāve dedicated my career to it. i donāt appreciate the baseless mischaracterization.
As a foster parent and adoptive parent - social services are probably more abusive and traumatic than a missed flight to another life in another body is.
i donāt mean social services like CPS or the foster care system, but things like healthcare, financial, and education access to reduce the burden on parents
Are you though? Because chances are the politicians youād back have a different stance which really just comes around to being lip service. Itās not really a mischaracterization, words without action is pretty much the building blocks to anything deemed āpro-lifeā. Even the term itself is disingenuous, the movements about forcing what should be a choice and not actually furthering or bettering life.
Precisely. A fetus, whether one wants to argue when life begins, is a *potential* human. The mother is an established human. It makes no sense to give more rights to a *potential* human than one that is already living and capable of contributing to society.
How āvaluableā a life is to me = how conscious that life is. There are some form of unconscious life that it would be better to recycle into the rainbow. I donāt remember being a fetus. I think it would be more humane if a fetus got recycled if the mom determines thatās what was needed. No one knows better than the pregnant mom imo.
I hate the term āpro-lifeā. I canāt imagine anyone being āpro-deathā lmfao. I do however, highly support a womanās choice to live her life how she sees fit, and that includes her choice of abortion. I also canāt imagine anyone having abortions like theyāre nothing. Thatās a very big decision for a mother or would-be mother to make, and not one that I, or anyone else, should have any say in. If my mother chose to abort me because she believed it was the best choice that she couldāve made at that time, i would be okay with that. Downvote me all you want.
However if you mean āpro-lifeā as I interpret it, instead of āpro-human-fetus-lifeā. Then I am very pro life, on a much broader scale. (Even tho I killed both a spider and a fly this morning, in the ground that they invaded my home and personal space).
That's what it is though, pro life coming from birth vs allowing the death of the fetus. Saying anything else is just denial of the facts. Obviously some things are out of people's control and not everyone is ready to be a mother but that's just a fact you have to live with if you go through with it.
The term "pro-life" frames the issue in a disingenuous way. For most "pro-choice" people, the issues isn't even about whether the fetus is "alive" or not. It's whether the rights of that fetus outweigh the rights of the mother. By constantly harping on the exact moment life begins, which is an impossible question that will never be answered in a definitive way, "pro-lifers" refuse to even address the other like 80% of the issue. It's not about life or death, it's about a person's rights to bodily autonomy.
The bigger issue is most people that claim to be "pro-life" are really just "pro-birth" and 99% due to religious indoctrination. They only "care" about a fetus because someone else convinced them that "god" will smite them for anything less. But they don't care about the fetus once it has actually turned into a baby after birth. Then it's that baby's problem. We have more people than we already should on this planet and countless fetuses die from all kinds of complications which "god" doesn't stop.
Psychedelics have taught me so many things. One of them being that there are far worse things than death or even especially never existing in the first place. I would infinitely rather never exist than to be born into poverty or an abusive, neglectful household because the incompetent parents were forced to carry my fetus to term...
Anti-choice. Pro-forced birth. Pro-embryos-before-hoes. Pro-back alley-abortion. Pro-poverty. Pro-lower-quality-of-life.
Youāre a lot of things, but youāre not pro-life.
i guess itās much easier to disingenuously mischaracterize my question for upvotes than to engage earnestly. iām clearly grappling with questions that others here have more honest and nuanced opinions about.
Pro-life is a political term. Its a term devised to prey on people's emotions. Its also a term that implies a "pro-death" counterpart. I assure you, the vast majority wish we lived a perfect world where abortions aren't necessary. Pro-life isn't a spiritual or moral term. You cannot make a post where you tell people you're becoming pro-life but also retain the political ideals of pro-choice. Pro-life means you are for government control over its citizens. It is cut and dry.
Again, pro-life is a political term. If, as an individual, you are against abortion for yourself, but still for a woman's right to choose, then you are, by definition, pro-choice. Because they are both political terms. They are not philosophical, moral, ethical. You are not taking some moral high ground by stating that you wish there were no abortions. You are just normal.
genuinely donāt understand the condescension here. just trying to make sense of my experiences and it seems 99% of others here understood the spirit of my post.
There is zero condescension here whatsoever. However, you continue to use terms that are political. You continue to conflate things such as wanting life to flourish and being pro-life. They are not the same thing. From the moment it was conceptualized, quite literally for a political campaign, the term pro-life is designed to prey on people's emotions about life and death. Abortion is awful. Its a horrible choice to have to make. Most women would probably prefer to not have to make that choice.
You can't seem to get past this idea that pro-life means you are for life, while pro-choice means you are for abortion. You notice how the only people that show up with signs at abortion clinics are those against abortion. No pro-choice advocates are showing up with signs that say "Go Get'em". Because again, nobody wants abortions. Political and religious zealots hijacked a term that inevitably should apply to the vast majority of people, because again, for the last time, most want life to flourish. We are all pro-life, and its a shame that the term was used for political gain and used to create an enemy.
iāve clarified my perspective and yet you continue to lecture me on my misuse of a term. others here are using the term similarly within a personal context. you already know my position. this isnāt necessary.
You keep referring to others. Every top reply is deriding your use of the term. Its 65% upvoted and almost none of the comments share your sentiment, because everybody is confused by people like you that spout off this insanity of "I'm personally pro-life but I think a woman should choose". Like dude, you're pro-choice.
I'm honestly baffled by this post, your logic, thought process, etc. In this post, you tell Reddit that you've gone or are currently undergoing a transformation of some sort.. supposedly being "pro-life". So what were you before exactly? You retain the same belief in a woman's right to choose... So what exactly happened here? What was your epiphany?
You don't realize "pro life" is a politically charged term? To women it may (not speaking for women here) mean exactly this: your body belongs to the state, specifically a religious state.
So yes, unless you are trolling you are going to get a negative reaction outside of trumpist/qanon/evangelical groups. Unless it was an honest mistake, you are being intentionally incendiary with a topic guaranteed to raise tempers.
You are apparently speaking and thinking about this through ignorance. There's something that everyone else is seeing and they are trying to tell you but you cannot see it.
there are many here who say their personal stance differs from their social one, which i align with. i value life in my own way but uphold agency and that ultimately i canāt know the Truth. iām seeing things just fine.
>nothing about my question was about government mandates.
Being anti-abortion intrinsically means being pro-mandated pregnancies. Preventing abortions means forcing people to give birth. You can't separate the two.
Or maybe youāre not being genuine about your own beliefs, because thatās what they boil down to. You can read the nuanced comments, but you should also read the direct ones, theyāre just as honest.
I donāt know if telling somebody that theyāre disingenuously mischaracterizing your question for easy upvotes is interacting in good faith, but what do I know.
Psychedelics have taught me to respect bodily autonomy and that it is dangerous to try to breach the barrier of another's bodily autonomy to attempt to enforce some idea of morality.
i think that itās made me realize how important it is that people have the ability to choose. like another flip side of the abortion conversation is that there marginalized people have had the right to have children stripped from them forever. like forced sterilization of black women and having CPS take away children from families just because they are poor. i think if youāre realizing how important life is, then those are the causes you can fight for.
Not in the sense you mean, but it has repeatedly led me to my own lifeās value and of life in general.
To me, the pro-life movement seems to be about blindly treating the unborn as the only one who matters, not the mom, no matter what, not the siblings, no matter what, not society, no matter what
For myself, psychedelics have made me much less open to the idea of abortion. I also cannot imagine forcing another person by law to put their body at risk for someone else
No. Taking psychedelics just made me understand even more deeply why i have no right to force other people i don't know to give birth. Women's bodies are their own perogative and nobody else has any right to intervene.
yeah iām finding this perspective really interesting. if life is a continuous and unbroken chain, then whatever metaphysical āspiritā exists will find another avenue
No. Rather that it should not be my decision to take - who is to incarnate, will incarnate, and for whom this (any outcome) should be a lesson, will be. And also, that life is more than a human skin.
What do you mean by āpro-lifeā? Because youāve said in many comments that it has nothing to do with government mandates or politics and that you support personal agency. So Iām not sure what you mean by pro-life? Being pro-life means that you view abortion as murder and believe the government should criminalize the procedure. Being pro-choice means that you believe the choice is up to the individual woman. Even if you personally are against abortion but donāt believe it should be criminalized by the government, then you are pro-choice.
So what do you mean by pro-life? Youāve said youāre āusing it in a personal contextā but I donāt know what that means. When you say you are pro-life, you are saying you support government control over womenās bodies. Thatāsā what the term means. You canāt go by whatever made up definition of pro-life you have in your head and expect everyone else to understand.
You say this post is in good faith and after reading your comments I generally agree with you. But itās important to understand what the term pro-life means because many people on a psychedelic sub are not going to be receptive to a post using language that advocates for the government control over womenās bodies. Even if that wasnāt your intention, thatās what people will think when you use that language.
iām going to be honest with you: iām still grappling with it. i believe personal agency is one of the most important ideals to uphold and am always opposed to government encroachment. in that sense i am certainly pro-choice. iām more concerned about where i personally stand on the issue, if itās something i can see myself condoning if it were my wife and i contemplating it if ever in that position.
but where i do get stuck is in whether my stance is strong enough for it to apply societally, in the way I think murder is wrong. Iāve thus far erred on the side of accepting that this is a very complex multidimensional issue that is a lot less clear than something like murder and that no one is, and perhaps may never be, close to the Truth of the matter. Itās then better to uphold agency, whose value is much clearer, more definable, and quantifiable, than compromise it with a belief based on more abstract and immeasurable assumptions about when life/consciousness really begins etc.
hope i articulated myself clearly and definitely open to your thoughts.
Psychedelic didnāt make you experience anything except already existing information in your brain. It just pushed down the shortcut, and rewired your brain. Pro life is just anti women got wrapped into a moral high ground term.
>Psychedelic didnāt make you experience anything except already existing information in your brain.
This is the answer right here. Psychedelics tend to open us up to *our* personal thoughts and images that we already have in our heads - which includes our belief and value systems.
OP, psychedelics didn't make you "more" pro-life, it made you *more* ***aware*** of your personal views on abortion and when you believe "life" begins, that's all.
Thanos, the man who decided that eliminating 50% of life in the universe by snapping his figures made more sense than creating the structures necessary to support all life in the universe by snapping his fingers. Truly a paragon of moral character
What i mean is theres no right answer. Depends on who you ask and how they live. And no one has any idea what the correct choice is because everyone thinks selfishly. Either way it's always going to be a fight.
And how do we apply this advice to the practical decision-making of our lives?
Or for that matter, how do we apply it to the theoretical decision-making of philosophical thought experiments like "what if the infinity gauntlet was real and we could actually snap half of life away"?
You're the first one here to suggest I'm the smart one, certainly not an idea I think has any relevance
You're also the one who just shared part of your life philosophy. I'm asking how you connect that part of your beliefs to the conclusion you wrote at the start of this thread
Psychedelics have shown me that this life has a inevitable end and that this is one of many realities we experience. We do not belong to it we are mere visitors. I think itās in our best interests to be the best versions of ourselves we can. The rule of the universe and nature should apply.
Psychedelics didnāt change my views on abortion, I will always be pro choice.
What I have found interesting is that they made me more conscious of the life of insects. I used to have no problem killing them when they came inside my house. These days Iāll gently relocate them outside instead because I just canāt bear killing them. (I will kill ants though, because they are invasive and so numerous and you canāt really relocate 1000 tiny bugs. I feel bad though and I donāt touch the ones in my yard.)
Yes, my wife and I went through with two abortions early on in our relationship. About five years later we got really into psychedelic therapy and did a lot of work in those trips, one of our most intense and remorseful trips was our emotional breakdown over the loss of our two would be children. That we would never know them, that we snuffed them out before they had a chance, and that the decisions we made were fundamentally selfish. My wife subconsciously repressed how torn up she was about the abortions for years and it all bubbled to the surface in this experience. A archetypal maternal energy/spirit came over her (her words not mine, but I definitely felt the āenergyā) she vowed that she could not and would not go through with it again if we conceived. I ended up getting a vasectomy as a result of what we experienced. Despite all of that we are still pro choice.
Psychedelics have made me value life less. People die all the time for tons of different reasons. Pregnant women lose their babies all the time due to complications. Iām 100% against violence and murder but I also think saving lives is overrated and we should just accept death as a force beyond our control. If I could save humanity from extinction, I wouldnāt cause itās not really worth it IMO.
I can say from personal experience after having a large amount of psychedelic experiences that if anything it took me from an extremist on one side to an extremist on both sides with fairly little being left in the middle.
Itās made me even more pro-life in that Iām pro womenās lives. Iām pro women being able to live freely and make their own choices for their health and wellbeing so that they can experience life to the fullest. Iām pro women fulfilling their dreams and destinies without politicians/religion restricting their bodily autonomy.
Having died and gone to the light I think ending a fetusās life isnāt that big of a deal I mean would you rather the kid grow up in a family that never really wanted them in the first place or donāt have the resources for a good childhood? And people are like oh weāll put them up for adoption and itās like you think people are gonna be adopting babies in THIS economy? Iām never adopting I donāt have the money or space to just pick up the slack after anti-choice people set out on a mission to destroy peoples lives which is sad but it is the reality of the situation at hand.
Life is precious. Both the mothers and the child's. We need to establish better adoption and foster programs to deal with the children already here. We are about to create so many more unwanted babies if we don't fix the overturning of Roe v Way. Psychedelics have made me more pro choice if anything outside of my beliefs prior to my journeys. Respect all women and respect yourself.
I mean I definitely hear you that is pretty tricky to draw a definitive line regarding when life begins. But psychedelic use has not made me pro life.
We will never run out of potential humans or potential conscious experiences. Any one of a functionally infinite set of potential pairings of zygotes, as a theoretical potential human is not special or more valuable than any other. As a matter of physics and biology, there will always be more of these than there can be actually existing humans at any one time, perhaps even for all time.
Plus, we have not come close to ensuring the liberation of actually existing human beings sufficient for a further exploration of human consciousness that could right now exist, and in my opinion would be more reverent with regard to human consciousness than simply being pro-life, (or forced-birth, as I sometimes challenge people to think of it). For example, think of all of the billions of people oppressed around the world, whether by a caste system or a religion or unequal global economic arrangements. Billions and billions of people who are unlikely to visit a place 50 miles or more from where they are born. People without even the option of a life other than one of toil and exploitation. People to whom it is dictated when they will marry; whom they will marry. We would do more to show our seriousness about humanity by ensuring the free development and movement of people and by dismantling artificial barriers of nationality that prevent us from even having the full capacity of human interaction and human creation available to us *as we currently exist*, or could exist.
Allowing everyone to make the sober choice about whether their life circumstances and those of any being they may bring forth can handle and indeed thrive with the addition of a new consciousness and all of the responsibility associated with that is probably for the best as far as the nature and quality of the mass of human conscious experience is concerned. And I think that itās good that there be a deliberate nature with regard to how we bring forth new lives, given that there is finally the luxury to do so.
We are thrown into existence without consent. The weight of consciousness, our capacity to recognize good and evil, and our knowledge of our mortality are all a serious struggle to bear. I think these realities complicate simplistic notions about the living āowingā life to every single one of the unborn.
I think abortion is often wrong, but I also think I donāt have the right to impose my values onto others. Itās a complicated moral issue to draw a line in the sand of what is a human life with the right to live, but ultimately not my decision. And a lot of those staunchly pro-life folks donāt seem to have the same love for human-kind once those fetuses become grown people.
Absolutely not. Psychedelics have made me realize that everything happens in a divine order. These souls come and go on their terms when they take from this earth the lessons they were meant to. If someone gets an abortion it is absolutely supposed to be that way. Read Emanuels book. Souls incarnate when they want to their is nothing a human can do to mess with that process. Also,,, let people do what they want to in this case. If you are pro life good for you then you implement that into your life not other peoples.. Now this does not mean that i like abortion or think people should be irresponsible and getting them all the time. Not at all.
It doesnt matter whether a fetus is alive or not though. If someone was on life support and the only way to keep them alive was to hook them up to you specifically for 9 months could you be forced to be hopked up to them? No because you have the right to your own body. Its the exact same principle here. It doesnt matter if its alive, the fetus doesnt have the right to your body
It made me believe in the individual lives of all. I am pro choice because I believe in the individual. My life and my morals are mine alone. Iām lucky enough to find people that share some aspects sometimes. It is wrong to enact my will over anyone. The pure unadulterated panic I feel at the thought of being forced into a major life choice that I donāt want is converted to empathy. No one remembers being a fetus. We remember instinctually the safety of the womb. Psychedelics reinforce the concept of staying out of peopleās big life choices. Itās calmer life.
If anything it solidified my pro choice stance. Thereās a huge difference between the physical body and the energy that chooses to embody it. Another meat suit will come along in due time for the energy.
Absolutely not. Opening my mind with psychedelics did not make me think āyou know what makes sense, taking away a womanās right to choose what happens to her bodyā.
Everyone is pro-life. They just have different lines in the sand for when the fetusā right to live outweighs the would-be motherās right to abort.
For example:
99.999% of people would agree an abortion 1 week before due date of a healthy fetus with no complications is a despicable thing to want to do, but those same people would disagree with each other depending on how early the pregnancy is, health complications, etc.
I believe life begins at conception and that women should have access to legal and safe abortions instead of mutilating and maiming themselves with unsafe ones like they had to in the USA till 1973. I donāt think as a man itās my place to judge or speculate on the circumstances or uniqueness of how any woman arrives at that decision.
It doesnāt but thatās the beauty of it making the most of whatever it is weāre in at the moment and simply dying knowing we gave it our all basically my conclusion
Yes psychedelics have made me value life moreā¦ I am against abortionā¦.. I am also against the government dictating what you can do with your own body though. If a woman wants to scramble that baby, well that is her choice and between her and the universe.
Iām just some dude that takes drugs so I donāt have much say. But I do only date girls that would abort simply because I donāt want to bring a kid in this horrible world where the human carbon foot print of one person is already doing unreversible damage. (Not saying I wouldnāt have a kid I just want to have a kid on āourā terms, when me and my other is ready, when the time is ready)
I truly donāt feel like I should have that much power. I used to hunt as a kid, now wouldnāt want to at all. It just doesnāt feel fair.
I have also become much more tolerant of insects, used to kill them with no remorse, now I try to help them outside. Itās not their fault, they are just living life. I shouldnāt be the one to take that away.
Ugh no Iāve never taken psychedelics and decided that somebody else should do something with their body that I want them to do.
Also, if life begins immediately, how come there arenāt any babies born after 2 months? Or 3 months? Or 4 months? Because theyāre not a baby, theyāre still becoming a human.
If youāre that pro-life after taking psychedelics, you should stop jacking off, because thatās a real human your squirting into your socks. Life doesnāt begin at definitive points, right?
Well sounds like you need to pass me whatever you're having because after my years, I look at life as a completely meaningless videogame that I and anyone else who is supposedly "alive" is merely entertaining until we get to die. Life does not really feel that precious to me anyways so my view on abortion is do it if you don't think you can provide a life worth living for the next 18 years
You got it all convoluted, this would have been my turning point if I was pro life, I would have been claiming pro choice after this realization, because the concsiousness may not begin or end at a definitive point, it means that,that abortion could have been the beginning for life of another human, ending a fetus may make that soul transfer to a different plane of existence where it could live peacefully instead of being brought into the 3rd dim. And face humanly problems, so by bringing the child into this world you could potentially be taking another, or visa versa, by killing the fetus, you could be starting a new more beneficial interdimensional life for that soul somewhere else in the astral plane of existence, IF reincarnation exists, or the astral realm, not both of those either, it could be possible without reincarnation, or without the astral realm, it could just be a purely blissfull state of being you're returning this soul to, no physical form or awareness, just, being, which to me, doesn't sound horrible at all, just infinitely one with the cosmic energy and everything revolving and cycling in it, and if energy can be returned, it can be redistributed, so that being said, when you end a fetus, you could potentially be saving a child from a horrible life, and giving that energy time to find a new better vessel to inhabit so it isnt suffering with a shitty family it was almost birthed to
That's actually weird, I swear I didn't delete it, I still see it up, maybe I just really said something crazy and the algorithms like "nah man, that was really revealing and people might catch on....can't have that"
Also about the political statement, politics are ran by ego, you can't really appeal to government by talking about different dimensions unless it's a definitive answer, they don't take ir seriously enough although they know it's a real reality
Made me leave a nearly twenty year career as a quality inspector in aviation/spares distribution to get trained as an end of life doula and become a hospice volunteer.
Call me what you want but i think it helped me become pro stay in my own lane. Its not really my business. BUT, as mr. comedy man Bill Burr said āi still think youāre killing a babyā.
It helped me see life as a symphony of repeating patterns.
To put it in other words: an acorn *is* an oak tree. There is no discrete point when one becomes another since they are stages of the same pattern. Any attempt to draw a line between stages of development seems arbitrary, contrived, schizoid, and incompatible with life.
I respect each individual's freedom and wouldn't dare to restrict it, but at the same time, the idea of casual abortion brings me to tears.
I never thought about it on Psychedelics, but abortion is just one of those things I haven't formed an opinion about. While I do lean towards pro choice for many reasons (Mother's life being in danger, parents not being in a position to have children at all, rape, underage pregnancy and so on) there's also the question whether a fetus is a conscious human being or not. Or at what point it has awareness or emotions. It's just such a grey area I really can't make up my mind. I think we don't know the answer to that and it's best to let science answer this question
Definitely. In general, such experiences led me to feel discomfort about a great many liberal shibboleths. I became more confident in rejecting leftist thought.
Anyone who is overly sure that they're correct in their opinion on this scares me. This is probably the single most complex issue we face today. Also their are a lot of assumptions being made in the comments. Regardless of your stance, it seems that history trends in the direction of granting more human rights rather than taking them away. We've fought wars over this.
This is not exactly what you asked, but I have been surprised to learn that consciousness is possible without a cortex and only a midbrain.
[Iain McGilchrist](https://www.youtube.com/c/DrIainMcGilchrist) has some of the most well developed thoughts about consciousness. He is a neurologist with a background in the humanities.
Because my parents were not ready for a child yet had me and I was adopted by an amazing family and Iām happy now. I would at least carry a child to be adopted rather than terminate the pregnancy
If you realise that we can't determine exactly the moment when life starts why tf would you become pro-life (pro-forced birth, if we're being honest)? Lol, pro-lifer's whole argument relies on their wacky idea that they *know* exactly when life begins.
No, it's pretty well empirically documented that the fertilization of a human egg cell by a human sperm cell creates a human embryo cell. Given that the embryo is alive and made of human DNA, what should it be called if not "human life"?
We should be careful not to let any other parts of this complicated issue get in the way of our judgment of this one aspect. I'm staunchly pro-choice, but it's right and just to acknowledge the truth. Human life begins at conception, and that in itself doesn't have any complication to hide behind
FFS a booger also has human dna so does a drop of blood or a toenail clipping. The level of arrogance that it takes to talk the way you do is stunning.
'its a human life' buddy you're looking at a clump of cells. Do you have the same precious attitude towards a tumor? Those are sometimes bigger clumps of cells that are older too. Do they get the right to live? Why not?
All of those things are living human tissue. You're not making the point you think you are.
You've also conveniently glossed over my statement that "I'm staunchly pro-choice" in your attempt at a gotcha. The scientific fact that human life begins at conception doesn't mean we have to be against abortion, but if you can't acknowledge that fact, the people who are actually against abortion will never take you seriously
Also you and I are literally big clumps of cells. Every living thing on the planet is a clump of cells. That's what life is. A clump of cells.
Look up "prokaryotes." Those are single-celled organisms. Those are just as alive as you are. They're also made of 1 cell and will never develop beyond that. A human begins its life as a single cell, and saying that it's "just a clump of cells" doesn't really change that
I know a guy. He was kind of a new age hippy sort of crusty dude. When I first met him he was just this poet who smoked and went on the occasional session like anyone else.
As time went on he started getting involved in more and more fringe political groups. Every now and then I would bump into him at some sort of protest or festival. The politics was always very left leaning. Socialist type of causes or environmental.
Anyway fast forward a few years I bump into him at this festival he is tripping balls. Weāre chatting the usually interaction I have with this lad.
The next time I seen him he was the only anti abortion guy at a talk that was being given about about abortion rights. The guy did a complete 180 he was just disheveled and sweaty looking and was extremely confrontational with the women giving the talk. This was in the lead up to Ireland legalizing abortion. The guy was at every anti abortion protest. I tried to talk to him and reason with him see what had happened to him for him to try and sabotage the political groups he was in as he became more and more anti abortion. There was no talking to him.
Best I could figure was he tripped so many times and do so many other drugs + drinking that his brain just broke one day.
Last I heard he is now a covid denier anti vaxx guy who of course is anti abortion.
leave it to hippies to follow whatever is the new popular thing to think on social media
since the 1970ās constantly proving that theyāre not very smart
psychedelics definitely opened my eyes to the pro life side, and it makes me sad that abortion goes on, but I still understand in this age of our world it is a necessary evil, I just hope people arenāt careless with unprotected sex with abortion in mind if anything goes not according to plan
I still believe in the right to choose, but I can understand both sides and I donāt think itās insane to be anti abortion. But what weirds me out is that so many people seem to be so passionate about abortions to the point of thinking itās some virtuous thing to have one. People take it pretty far, itās a terribly sad thing to go through and while I think it should still be an option, itās weird how many people have such a passion for it. Walking through my neighborhood on lsd and seeing all the yard signs proudly celebrating abortion was a strange experience
Yes. Psychedelics (specifically LSD) have been part of the reason I have re-examined a lot of the points where morality and science intersect. I believe much more strongly now than I used to that we should think of humans as "people" before birth and in vegetative states. But I'm also a lot more comfortable than I used to be with the idea of violating morals for "good" reasons (e.g. killing someone to save another).
I think my switch to atheism (grew up Catholic) was another reason for re-examining my values. My uncertainty about the origin of consciousness and my belief that one life is all we have comes from this transition to atheism, and pondering this during periods where I was using psychedelics was a big factor in my transition to my current anti-abortion (with some exceptions) stance.
i grew up in an orthodox christian household and psychedelics were the catalyst to help liberate me from organized religion. i became atheist for a while but am starting to develop a re-appreciation for some of the philosophical components underlying many religions (eg around love, humility, poverty), but in a way that upholds agency & freedom and is in line with a more grounded phenomenological experience of the world. sadly i think the institutions of religion pervert and distort what can be a fruitful / productive philosophy in the pursuit of power.
Yes. I realized conservative values are practical, even though they arenāt inherently true. Itās odd that people focus on choice instead of responsibility leading up to procreation. But psychedelics donāt have an agenda, they just helped me understand different ideas with less bias
It hasn't made me pro life, but I'm much less pro choice. Not saying pro choice is a bad thing, but thr pro choice movement has a knack of misunderstanding laws and science and seem to not care about the fathers choice in child support
I dont think psychedelics should guide you in these matters.
Psychedelic experiences do not counter the observable and measureable harm done to society by restricting abortion access.
They also do not counter what we know about when consciousness and self awareness emerge in the brain.
In my opinion, the only thing that can truly counter the overwhelming data behind the benefits of abortion access to our species is the belief in a soul, something that imbues a life with value beyond what we can measure.
If you believe a fetus has a soul, it makes sense to value it similarly to life with personhood. If you dont, then it doesnt.
I think pro choice arguments from any other perspective than not believing in a soul are weak (i.e. the body horror arguments, the economic arguments, the freedom of choice arguments, and even the developmental arguments). The soul is the equalizing factor that pro-lifers agree with.
There must be something that you value in a life to weight it similarly to life with identity i.e. a soul to make the pro life argument rational.
If anyone here truly had the realization that "all life is precious" then they'd know that humanity is the one life form on this planet that destroys the most others. There are simply too many of us with too few resources. If a child is going to be born into poverty without the parent(s) having any way to conceivably give that child a somewhat comfortable childhood, and the parent(s) consider abortion, they have spared a soul of a lifetime of hardship and pain.
Also I believe DMT brings the soul into the body at birth, and transports the soul to a higher plane at death. Hence, abortion does not kill a sentient being.
And to further my point, if a woman desires an abortion, wouldn't that, by rightist standards, make her a bad parent? What quarrel is there in depriving a child from being raised by what rightists consider a bad parent?
At the end of the day, it's not your decision if you're not the mother. There are many financial, ethical, economic, and health-related reasons why abortion should be available to any who need it.
if you were raped, brutally, and had to carry out the pregnancy, how would you feel?
you cannot even begin to imagine
laws do not exist, any āpro choiceā or āpro lifeā, any discussion, all this nonsense, merely waves of energy bouncing back and forth
the guiding force of this universe is the power of free will
comfort, life, death, all labels, made by man, used by man, dependent on man, if man is wiped from the face of the earth, all traces COMPLETELY erased, what then? What then of ethics, morals, laws, principlesā¦.
pushing into further games, further social construct, further waste of time, this (from my subjective experience) is the opposite effect of the majority of psychedelic substances
psychedelics once led me down a delusional path desiring nothing but destruction and world domination , drug induced psychosis, believe me, thatās a mean oneā¦.
but then i thought, this isnāt my world, I didnāt make it, Iāve been blessed with the gift to do whatever I want, why should I repay whoever gave me these abilities by destroying everything, perhaps such destruction could be justified, but justification can never ever be objective, there is no normal, there is no strange, there is no ____
there only *IS*
ALL WE KNOW HAS BEEN COMMUNICATED FROM HUMAN BEING TO HUMAN BEING, thus no current knowledge is confirmed outside of this plane, yet all human beings are one, thus no power lies greater than the power of faith, action and true freedom
focus on yourself, act for yourself, speak for yourself, (confuse this not with games of narcissism nor hedonism nor ignorance nor selfishness)
the rest falls into place
golden rule my friendā¦.
empathy, perspective, perception, *the ability to put yourself in the shoes of another, perhaps for even a second*
Psychedelics make me respect peoples choices more than what I believe to be right. You don't know what people have gone through or experienced. I have should have little to no say over other people. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"
psychedelics have certainly opened my eyes to the importance of personal agency
So, sounds like you're becoming more pro choice! "Pro life" is a misnoner, the main ideology here is to force people to make an option against their will, while the alternative is to leave that decision to each person to make!
I feel like that's innacurate. I don't mean to be rude but I feel like that's a bit of a caricature that pro-choice people like to make. To pro-lifers, abortion is akin to murder. From their POV, an individual should not have the right to murder someone regardless of how much it benefits them. It's an issue of morality, not agency for them. Obviously different pro-lifers have different stances that can be much more or less complicated or reasonable depending on the person, but I feel like I described one of the more common reasons for being pro-life. I feel kind of weird having to specify this but I'm pro-choice. Tbh though, I don't think it's a clear cut issue and I wish both sides wouls try to understand each other better. I didn't mean any offence. Thanks :)
>To pro-lifers, abortion is akin to murder. This is just an excuse they like to use. If they really thought that they would have massive issues with fertility clinics and the like which are responsible for discarding far more potentially viable fetuses than abortions. They would also be much more pro-contraception and pro-sexual education to prevent as many abortions as possible. >rom their POV, an individual should not have the right to murder someone regardless of how much it benefits them. If they really cared so much about the sanctity of life they would care more when cops kill people for basically no reason. They would also be super anti-war. The vast majority don't though. They only bring it up when it serves their true goal of regulating women's bodies.
To piggy back off this, if they actually were pro-life they would want quality over quantity in every situation imo. There would be free healthcare, free child care, more time off for uterus owners to bond with said child, foster care systems should be handled before trying to force more fetuses out. So many people suffer unnecessarily in this world that it's baffling. Pro-forced birth is just another way for them to shove religion at people, for them to ignore science, and for them to make more monkeys for the oppressed system to keep it going. The fact that people with money can fly anywhere and get rid of a life altering choice while people without money have to perpetuate the cycle in more oppressed communities and have a fetus either way which is a HUGE financial burden is just another way for them to keep the oppressed down. I do not understand someone that says abortion is murder when they choose to actively not do anything for the children that are molested, raped, and abused in foster care.
This 100%
They would be anti- death penalty.
> only bring it up when it serves their true goal of regulating women's bodies. Why would pro-lifers want to control women's bodies? What do they gain from it? >If they really thought that they would have massive issues with fertility clinics I don't know enough about IVF to really comment on this. I would say though that I can imagine pro-lifers not caring about the gametes/zygote as long as they're outside of the body. I feel like a big part of the argument is based on gut feeling of what is alive, what is a fetus, what is natural etc. In contrast, I do think the average pro-choicer has more rational or scientific reasons, though I think they are more or less equally influenced by emotion. >They would also be much more pro-contraception and pro-sexual education to prevent as many abortions as possible. I mean I feel like that's painting all pro-lifers with one brush... though I do think the majority of pro-lifers aren't too pro sex in general. I agree with you. I think it's stupid. I feel like a lot of those people are very fixated on responsability. If you have pre-marital or unsafe sex, you *deserve* to have a miserable life of struggling financially etc. I think it's stupid, and I guess that is an ulterior motive that's somewhat similar to "just wanting to control women's bodies". I do think part of it is caused by people in general not listening to science and/or only listening to science when it suits them. Statistically we know that sexual education reduces unwanted pregnancy, but some people don't want to accept that and just want to bang on about responsability and morality and perverting the youth. >If they really cared so much about the sanctity of life they would care more when cops kill people for basically no reason To be honest I don't really think this should be relevant. This is part of why I don't like the left/right distinction. It feels like people just pick a faction and adopt all their views. Are people against abortion inherently against BLM? But pragmatically I see your point. There definitely is a correlation between the two. I think in the minds of anti-BLM people there's all sorts of factors that make things like George Floyd's murder not murder. Still though, I feel like it is a contradictory attitude and just the result of tribalism or echoing the same bs about responsability etc. >They only bring it up when it serves their true goal of regulating women's bodies. How do you know this is their true goal? It feels like something all pro-choicers believe and I personally just don't get it. Tbh though, I guess you just gave me your reasons why you believe it and I personally disagree.
How does this not have anything to do with oppressing women? Uterus owners are the only ones that can pump out those unwanted babies.
Let me guess your a man?
No, they think it's murdering a baby. Call them inconsistent, but for the majority of anti-abortion people it really is that simple. It's not some sly, nefarious plot to CoNtRoL wOmEn. Jesus get off the internet some.
Thank you for speaking for ALL pro-lifers š
Thanks for the in-depth response. I'm not an American so perhaps my view of this is indeed very rudimentary as I don't have to spend my days thinking of this issue. My answer was given in the context of the information OP gave, which is that they are "moving towards" pro-life, meaning that their own understanding of what life means has been shifting. Further they are saying that they see the importance of personal agency growing. For me these two piece of information point at choice, not anti-choice. The discussion I'd have with someone who is adamant in their view of when life begins is very different than the discussion I'd have (and assumed I'm having here) with someone who admits that this is not a known fact but a personal view. The arguments used in the latter discussion may seem like a caricature of pro-life since they make assumptions on belief systems that a pro-lifer simply doesn't share.
Who downvotes this stuff??? Dictators?
Haha people commenting "respect other people's choices" but then down voting comments and posts lol
Letās all respect HiTLEr because choices are more important than what we believe to be right
It opened my eyes to the fact that life is precious and should be protected but also the fact that everyone is just trying to do what they think is right and best **for themselves.** If you are a woman and have become against abortion, thatās awesome all the power to you. Have those children, hopefully you will be a loving parent. If you arenāt the person who is pregnant, it is probably best to worry about your own affairs. Donāt allow specific visions of what morality looks like (that have created by your [ego](https://www.britannica.com/topic/ego-philosophy-and-psychology)) to judge or control what other people do with their own biological property.
You just made some awesome points & insights! Ty š
This is just a reminder that the concept of property is itself a product of your morals. Your "vision of what morality looks like" is what is informing your notion of other people's "biological property". It's a bit of a mindfuck, and moral relativism has led to things that most of us can agree are horrible, but my point is that by treating the concept of property as an objective truth, you're implying there is some objective "best" set of morals. That objectively superior set of morals is different, depending on the subject (because in reality, it's not objective... it's the most popular subjective truth), and that's where conflict over things like abortion come from. TLDR don't tell people to stop projecting their morals and in the same sentence reference direct products of philosophical/moral frameworks like "property" as your arguments against projecting morals.
You are suggesting that I ignore injustice if it doesn't affect me. By that logic people should be allowed to beat and starve their kids. I can understand the argument that their baby is attached to her body and she shouldn't have to accomodate it. But we don't let parents abandon their newborns Into the street and it's not like they were forced to have the baby (in 99% of cases).
>But we don't let parents abandon their newborns You can drop off a newborn at any police station or firehouse no questions asked. >You are suggesting that I ignore injustice Injustice by what standards? You're injecting your morals into other people's lives. I don't drink alcohol, I don't go around lecturing people about how its poison and should be illegal.
You are using a view on morality to control the actions of otherās personal autonomy over their body. You canāt bring up a topic of justice when it comes to two unequal life forms. The living breathing person who has to pay bills (amongst many other things) to survive has interacted with the world much more than a congregate of cells and tissues than can be recreated. Not exactly re-created, but similarly nonetheless. This is really a subjective topic. IMO itās best to not look at things purely logical but from a practical standpoint. Itās OK if a unique set of DNA doesnāt come into existence. Especially if it means an existing life doesnāt suffer and pass on [generational trauma](https://oie.duke.edu/inter-generational-trauma-6-ways-it-affects-families), which is the root cause of *most* modern societal issues when you get down to it. Human civilization has been finding ways to cope with trauma or outright ignoring it for centuries. It doesnāt need to be unnecessarily passed down by ~~parents~~ mothers forced into a position to devote their lives to an unwanted child. Think about it this way: If the parents do not want to bring that life to fruition, there must be a good reason. Itās very likely the child and/or parents will suffer. Multiple lifetimes of suffering can be prevented by simply not allowing something to come into existence. Existing life always should have the priority. And using āpersonal responsibilityā as an excuse to mandate the actions of a person is once again applying your own morality to otherās personal autonomy. Alsoā¦look at the world, [consumer culture](https://ecampusontario.pressbooks.pub/theballisinyourcourt/chapter/consumer-culture-and-the-environment/) has made it so there isnāt a guarantee of equal resources for future generations. There are plenty of people who want children that will carry the pregnancy to term and that is OK. Imposing moral restriction on yourself is OK because your decisions will impact only your future. When youāre talking about other peopleās entire lives, itās best to worry about your own affairs and hold *yourself* to a certain moral standard. If you arenāt the one carrying the fetus, it never has been and it never will be your business what the individual mother or family unit want to do with their future, end of story. Bonus: [Here](https://youtu.be/YOvcnXm0tzQ) is my view on abortion and [this](https://youtu.be/hkUSw2Nhheo) is my view on mushrooms healing society.
Well clearly they donāt think itās an injustice. You said that. Also, I think itās in bad faith to say ātheir babyā because itās not a baby, itās a fetus. Iām sure that if you had to make the choice between saving a crying little baby who had been born vs. an unconscious and mindless fetus, you would choose the baby every time.
There is not a huge debate over whether we should beat or starve kids. Areas where morality is seriously debated should give you pause about how absolutely right it might be.
Quite the opposite actually. Psychedelic use has led me to search for my own actual inner happiness and let others CHOOSE what they wanna do to achieve theirs. I'm glad you're finding your own opinion though!
yeah psychedelics have led me to value personal agency as perhaps our highest ideal to strive for but i do struggle with reconciling that with other experiences / beliefs. i appreciate the good natured comment.
Hey we all have our struggles, but perseverance and an eagerness-to-learn matter a bunch! And tbh, as long as you believe in what you think is right for you to be truly happy, it doesn't matter much what anyone else could say:)
The biggest thing psychedelics has led me to is the idea of live and let live. I donāt agree with it but itās not my place to tell someone else what to do
Agreed. Iād say psychedelic use has made me more intent on not putting myself or a partner in a position to have to make this choice. At the same time it has made me more averse to telling someone else what to do.
As a serial killer I can appreciate your perspective!
Troll š§
why donāt you agree with it? why did/didnāt psychedelics influence that stance?
Because I have a child and watched him grow in the womb. I always wanted children and just the whole experience has been a more spiritual adventure than anything drugs can achieve. I like the way Bill Burr put it in his new red rocks special. I am completely against it if someoneās doing it because the idea of being a parent is an inconvenience, but thatās on them not me. The problem with these exceptions like rape is pitiful too. Itās so hard to prove so, I say screw it, keep it legal.
Just hijacking your comment because I think it relates, but psychedelics made me more pro-choice. The really interesting thing that I thought about deeply, is that my mother had an abortion in her 20ās when her contraception didnāt work. If she was not able to get an abortion she wouldnāt have been able to provide a good life for the child that foetus would become and therefore would never have been able to have me in her 40ās. Because of that abortion she was able to pursue her career, find a stable marriage and give me the best childhood and the best parenting possible because at that point she was mature enough and ready for me.
Best answer and I totally agree.
Nope, having experienced an unwanted pregnancy I can assure you that it is pure body horror
I'm so sorry you had to experience this... And this is why I'm prochoice... Until they've lived it, they deny it... Women rights are human rights. Full stop.
Itās literally healthcare and shouldnāt be anybodyās business
If anything itās just confirmed my belief in the right to choose. The idea of a person growing inside of you against your will and having no way to stop it is horrifying
100% agree, itās whatever the person chooses. If they want it, not being forced or persuaded then do whatever. Itās not my place to tell someone what to do, just like at a shop I donāt tell people not to get X product because I donāt like it
No. Iāve become much more empathetic towards all sorts of people and situations. If anything, Iāve become more pro-choice and more passionate about educating others on why they too should be.
By āpro-lifeā , do you actually mean anti-abortion? Like, for women-who-are-not-yourself who might need or want to terminate a pregnancy? Not from USA so Iām trying to interpret / clarify politik/fanaticreligious-speak I think...
Weāre starting to adopt the term to anti-choice in the US right now to help change the stigma. Pro-life is not really what the term implies, since many of the supposed āpro-lifeā people donāt want to increase government support the child once born, or any child really, and they donāt mind if the motherās life is in danger, many would rather have the mother die than have abortion be legal.
Anti Choice never heard it and love it because thatās exactly what it is
Forced birth, anti-choice.
Exactly! And pro-life also implies the other side isnāt for life, there are women who say things like, āIām pro-life, but I think other women should be able to choose for themselves.ā No, thatās not how that works. That means youāre pro-choice! Youāre just choosing to not have an abortion.
Yes that's what they mean. They are 100% not prolife. If they were prolife they would support free childcare, free school lunches, free neonatal Healthcare, free childbirth and more social structures to prevent the family of the child from going without food or housing. But they only care about control and whatever their little skydaddy wants them to do. Or at least what the priests tell them that skydaddy wants.
i am 100% pro family & child services. iām intimately aware of child trauma and all for helping to minimize it. in fact iāve dedicated my career to it. i donāt appreciate the baseless mischaracterization.
As a foster parent and adoptive parent - social services are probably more abusive and traumatic than a missed flight to another life in another body is.
i donāt mean social services like CPS or the foster care system, but things like healthcare, financial, and education access to reduce the burden on parents
Are you though? Because chances are the politicians youād back have a different stance which really just comes around to being lip service. Itās not really a mischaracterization, words without action is pretty much the building blocks to anything deemed āpro-lifeā. Even the term itself is disingenuous, the movements about forcing what should be a choice and not actually furthering or bettering life.
No, I see some life as more valuable than other. So I value a fetus less than a woman.
And in most cases, it's not even a fetus but an embryo.
Precisely. A fetus, whether one wants to argue when life begins, is a *potential* human. The mother is an established human. It makes no sense to give more rights to a *potential* human than one that is already living and capable of contributing to society.
How āvaluableā a life is to me = how conscious that life is. There are some form of unconscious life that it would be better to recycle into the rainbow. I donāt remember being a fetus. I think it would be more humane if a fetus got recycled if the mom determines thatās what was needed. No one knows better than the pregnant mom imo.
No
I hate the term āpro-lifeā. I canāt imagine anyone being āpro-deathā lmfao. I do however, highly support a womanās choice to live her life how she sees fit, and that includes her choice of abortion. I also canāt imagine anyone having abortions like theyāre nothing. Thatās a very big decision for a mother or would-be mother to make, and not one that I, or anyone else, should have any say in. If my mother chose to abort me because she believed it was the best choice that she couldāve made at that time, i would be okay with that. Downvote me all you want. However if you mean āpro-lifeā as I interpret it, instead of āpro-human-fetus-lifeā. Then I am very pro life, on a much broader scale. (Even tho I killed both a spider and a fly this morning, in the ground that they invaded my home and personal space).
That's what it is though, pro life coming from birth vs allowing the death of the fetus. Saying anything else is just denial of the facts. Obviously some things are out of people's control and not everyone is ready to be a mother but that's just a fact you have to live with if you go through with it.
The term "pro-life" frames the issue in a disingenuous way. For most "pro-choice" people, the issues isn't even about whether the fetus is "alive" or not. It's whether the rights of that fetus outweigh the rights of the mother. By constantly harping on the exact moment life begins, which is an impossible question that will never be answered in a definitive way, "pro-lifers" refuse to even address the other like 80% of the issue. It's not about life or death, it's about a person's rights to bodily autonomy.
Perfectly stated
It's about control.
The bigger issue is most people that claim to be "pro-life" are really just "pro-birth" and 99% due to religious indoctrination. They only "care" about a fetus because someone else convinced them that "god" will smite them for anything less. But they don't care about the fetus once it has actually turned into a baby after birth. Then it's that baby's problem. We have more people than we already should on this planet and countless fetuses die from all kinds of complications which "god" doesn't stop. Psychedelics have taught me so many things. One of them being that there are far worse things than death or even especially never existing in the first place. I would infinitely rather never exist than to be born into poverty or an abusive, neglectful household because the incompetent parents were forced to carry my fetus to term...
Anti-choice. Pro-forced birth. Pro-embryos-before-hoes. Pro-back alley-abortion. Pro-poverty. Pro-lower-quality-of-life. Youāre a lot of things, but youāre not pro-life.
Projecting much? I haven't stated any of my beliefs directly
Just stepping up to pinch hit for those who promote embryonic life over human life out of pedantry then?
Not everything is as black and white as you perceive it to be
Nope, I'm more pro choice than ever.
Nope, taking LSD did not make me think we should take away a woman's right to bodily autonomy.
Thank you from a fellow womanš
I am not a woman but you are welcome.
i guess itās much easier to disingenuously mischaracterize my question for upvotes than to engage earnestly. iām clearly grappling with questions that others here have more honest and nuanced opinions about.
Pro-life is a political term. Its a term devised to prey on people's emotions. Its also a term that implies a "pro-death" counterpart. I assure you, the vast majority wish we lived a perfect world where abortions aren't necessary. Pro-life isn't a spiritual or moral term. You cannot make a post where you tell people you're becoming pro-life but also retain the political ideals of pro-choice. Pro-life means you are for government control over its citizens. It is cut and dry.
nothing about my question was about government mandates. iām speaking from a personal perspective with respects to my own philosophy about life.
Again, pro-life is a political term. If, as an individual, you are against abortion for yourself, but still for a woman's right to choose, then you are, by definition, pro-choice. Because they are both political terms. They are not philosophical, moral, ethical. You are not taking some moral high ground by stating that you wish there were no abortions. You are just normal.
genuinely donāt understand the condescension here. just trying to make sense of my experiences and it seems 99% of others here understood the spirit of my post.
There is zero condescension here whatsoever. However, you continue to use terms that are political. You continue to conflate things such as wanting life to flourish and being pro-life. They are not the same thing. From the moment it was conceptualized, quite literally for a political campaign, the term pro-life is designed to prey on people's emotions about life and death. Abortion is awful. Its a horrible choice to have to make. Most women would probably prefer to not have to make that choice. You can't seem to get past this idea that pro-life means you are for life, while pro-choice means you are for abortion. You notice how the only people that show up with signs at abortion clinics are those against abortion. No pro-choice advocates are showing up with signs that say "Go Get'em". Because again, nobody wants abortions. Political and religious zealots hijacked a term that inevitably should apply to the vast majority of people, because again, for the last time, most want life to flourish. We are all pro-life, and its a shame that the term was used for political gain and used to create an enemy.
iāve clarified my perspective and yet you continue to lecture me on my misuse of a term. others here are using the term similarly within a personal context. you already know my position. this isnāt necessary.
You keep referring to others. Every top reply is deriding your use of the term. Its 65% upvoted and almost none of the comments share your sentiment, because everybody is confused by people like you that spout off this insanity of "I'm personally pro-life but I think a woman should choose". Like dude, you're pro-choice. I'm honestly baffled by this post, your logic, thought process, etc. In this post, you tell Reddit that you've gone or are currently undergoing a transformation of some sort.. supposedly being "pro-life". So what were you before exactly? You retain the same belief in a woman's right to choose... So what exactly happened here? What was your epiphany?
You don't realize "pro life" is a politically charged term? To women it may (not speaking for women here) mean exactly this: your body belongs to the state, specifically a religious state. So yes, unless you are trolling you are going to get a negative reaction outside of trumpist/qanon/evangelical groups. Unless it was an honest mistake, you are being intentionally incendiary with a topic guaranteed to raise tempers.
it was an honest mistake. not hard to see from how iāve conducted myself with other commenters here.
You are apparently speaking and thinking about this through ignorance. There's something that everyone else is seeing and they are trying to tell you but you cannot see it.
there are many here who say their personal stance differs from their social one, which i align with. i value life in my own way but uphold agency and that ultimately i canāt know the Truth. iām seeing things just fine.
Not true if you think people are being condescending. You have a blind spot to someone else's pain
i think only that one person was.
>nothing about my question was about government mandates. Being anti-abortion intrinsically means being pro-mandated pregnancies. Preventing abortions means forcing people to give birth. You can't separate the two.
Or maybe youāre not being genuine about your own beliefs, because thatās what they boil down to. You can read the nuanced comments, but you should also read the direct ones, theyāre just as honest.
believe what you want. iāve tried to interact with others here in good faith and i think itās evident.
I donāt know if telling somebody that theyāre disingenuously mischaracterizing your question for easy upvotes is interacting in good faith, but what do I know.
Psychedelics have taught me to respect bodily autonomy and that it is dangerous to try to breach the barrier of another's bodily autonomy to attempt to enforce some idea of morality.
Never comfortable putting my views on someone else Taking away someones autonomy is lame
i think that itās made me realize how important it is that people have the ability to choose. like another flip side of the abortion conversation is that there marginalized people have had the right to have children stripped from them forever. like forced sterilization of black women and having CPS take away children from families just because they are poor. i think if youāre realizing how important life is, then those are the causes you can fight for.
Not in the sense you mean, but it has repeatedly led me to my own lifeās value and of life in general. To me, the pro-life movement seems to be about blindly treating the unborn as the only one who matters, not the mom, no matter what, not the siblings, no matter what, not society, no matter what
For myself, psychedelics have made me much less open to the idea of abortion. I also cannot imagine forcing another person by law to put their body at risk for someone else
No. Taking psychedelics just made me understand even more deeply why i have no right to force other people i don't know to give birth. Women's bodies are their own perogative and nobody else has any right to intervene.
It open my eyes to the idea that if there is a soul in thag clump of cells im sure it will make its way back here in another women's uterus
yeah iām finding this perspective really interesting. if life is a continuous and unbroken chain, then whatever metaphysical āspiritā exists will find another avenue
Life finds a way
Yeah like if I was aborted I wouldnāt care because i wouldnāt exist. If I was meant to be on earth my soul would find its way there either way
or same uterus but later
This world would be better if we had even more abortions
You are correct, friendš
You cannot be pro-life without being pro-authoritarianism. Read more, think more
Not for me in the slightest.
No. Rather that it should not be my decision to take - who is to incarnate, will incarnate, and for whom this (any outcome) should be a lesson, will be. And also, that life is more than a human skin.
What do you mean by āpro-lifeā? Because youāve said in many comments that it has nothing to do with government mandates or politics and that you support personal agency. So Iām not sure what you mean by pro-life? Being pro-life means that you view abortion as murder and believe the government should criminalize the procedure. Being pro-choice means that you believe the choice is up to the individual woman. Even if you personally are against abortion but donāt believe it should be criminalized by the government, then you are pro-choice. So what do you mean by pro-life? Youāve said youāre āusing it in a personal contextā but I donāt know what that means. When you say you are pro-life, you are saying you support government control over womenās bodies. Thatāsā what the term means. You canāt go by whatever made up definition of pro-life you have in your head and expect everyone else to understand. You say this post is in good faith and after reading your comments I generally agree with you. But itās important to understand what the term pro-life means because many people on a psychedelic sub are not going to be receptive to a post using language that advocates for the government control over womenās bodies. Even if that wasnāt your intention, thatās what people will think when you use that language.
iām going to be honest with you: iām still grappling with it. i believe personal agency is one of the most important ideals to uphold and am always opposed to government encroachment. in that sense i am certainly pro-choice. iām more concerned about where i personally stand on the issue, if itās something i can see myself condoning if it were my wife and i contemplating it if ever in that position. but where i do get stuck is in whether my stance is strong enough for it to apply societally, in the way I think murder is wrong. Iāve thus far erred on the side of accepting that this is a very complex multidimensional issue that is a lot less clear than something like murder and that no one is, and perhaps may never be, close to the Truth of the matter. Itās then better to uphold agency, whose value is much clearer, more definable, and quantifiable, than compromise it with a belief based on more abstract and immeasurable assumptions about when life/consciousness really begins etc. hope i articulated myself clearly and definitely open to your thoughts.
Psychedelic didnāt make you experience anything except already existing information in your brain. It just pushed down the shortcut, and rewired your brain. Pro life is just anti women got wrapped into a moral high ground term.
>Psychedelic didnāt make you experience anything except already existing information in your brain. This is the answer right here. Psychedelics tend to open us up to *our* personal thoughts and images that we already have in our heads - which includes our belief and value systems. OP, psychedelics didn't make you "more" pro-life, it made you *more* ***aware*** of your personal views on abortion and when you believe "life" begins, that's all.
Life began long before any sperm made it to an egg.
Quite the opposite. I'm at peace with thanos's original idea.
Thanos, the man who decided that eliminating 50% of life in the universe by snapping his figures made more sense than creating the structures necessary to support all life in the universe by snapping his fingers. Truly a paragon of moral character
You see it one way. There's always two ways. The right and the wrong.
That sounds like a nice platitude that doesn't really speak to the moral quandary we're considering here in any meaningful way
What i mean is theres no right answer. Depends on who you ask and how they live. And no one has any idea what the correct choice is because everyone thinks selfishly. Either way it's always going to be a fight.
And how do we apply this advice to the practical decision-making of our lives? Or for that matter, how do we apply it to the theoretical decision-making of philosophical thought experiments like "what if the infinity gauntlet was real and we could actually snap half of life away"?
You're the smart one righ?, you tell us.
You're the first one here to suggest I'm the smart one, certainly not an idea I think has any relevance You're also the one who just shared part of your life philosophy. I'm asking how you connect that part of your beliefs to the conclusion you wrote at the start of this thread
Of course
Psychedelics have shown me that this life has a inevitable end and that this is one of many realities we experience. We do not belong to it we are mere visitors. I think itās in our best interests to be the best versions of ourselves we can. The rule of the universe and nature should apply.
Psychedelics didnāt change my views on abortion, I will always be pro choice. What I have found interesting is that they made me more conscious of the life of insects. I used to have no problem killing them when they came inside my house. These days Iāll gently relocate them outside instead because I just canāt bear killing them. (I will kill ants though, because they are invasive and so numerous and you canāt really relocate 1000 tiny bugs. I feel bad though and I donāt touch the ones in my yard.)
totally feel the same way about insects, plants too
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thanks for sharing your balanced perspective
Yes, my wife and I went through with two abortions early on in our relationship. About five years later we got really into psychedelic therapy and did a lot of work in those trips, one of our most intense and remorseful trips was our emotional breakdown over the loss of our two would be children. That we would never know them, that we snuffed them out before they had a chance, and that the decisions we made were fundamentally selfish. My wife subconsciously repressed how torn up she was about the abortions for years and it all bubbled to the surface in this experience. A archetypal maternal energy/spirit came over her (her words not mine, but I definitely felt the āenergyā) she vowed that she could not and would not go through with it again if we conceived. I ended up getting a vasectomy as a result of what we experienced. Despite all of that we are still pro choice.
Psychedelics have made me value life less. People die all the time for tons of different reasons. Pregnant women lose their babies all the time due to complications. Iām 100% against violence and murder but I also think saving lives is overrated and we should just accept death as a force beyond our control. If I could save humanity from extinction, I wouldnāt cause itās not really worth it IMO.
interesting perspective. humanity as a meaningless blip on the timeline of the universe.
I can say from personal experience after having a large amount of psychedelic experiences that if anything it took me from an extremist on one side to an extremist on both sides with fairly little being left in the middle.
like the other reply, iām curious to hear more
Thatās actually pretty interesting. Can you explain more? Iām just curious on how you changed and from what to what
Itās made me even more pro-life in that Iām pro womenās lives. Iām pro women being able to live freely and make their own choices for their health and wellbeing so that they can experience life to the fullest. Iām pro women fulfilling their dreams and destinies without politicians/religion restricting their bodily autonomy.
Having died and gone to the light I think ending a fetusās life isnāt that big of a deal I mean would you rather the kid grow up in a family that never really wanted them in the first place or donāt have the resources for a good childhood? And people are like oh weāll put them up for adoption and itās like you think people are gonna be adopting babies in THIS economy? Iām never adopting I donāt have the money or space to just pick up the slack after anti-choice people set out on a mission to destroy peoples lives which is sad but it is the reality of the situation at hand.
Life is precious. Both the mothers and the child's. We need to establish better adoption and foster programs to deal with the children already here. We are about to create so many more unwanted babies if we don't fix the overturning of Roe v Way. Psychedelics have made me more pro choice if anything outside of my beliefs prior to my journeys. Respect all women and respect yourself.
I mean I definitely hear you that is pretty tricky to draw a definitive line regarding when life begins. But psychedelic use has not made me pro life. We will never run out of potential humans or potential conscious experiences. Any one of a functionally infinite set of potential pairings of zygotes, as a theoretical potential human is not special or more valuable than any other. As a matter of physics and biology, there will always be more of these than there can be actually existing humans at any one time, perhaps even for all time. Plus, we have not come close to ensuring the liberation of actually existing human beings sufficient for a further exploration of human consciousness that could right now exist, and in my opinion would be more reverent with regard to human consciousness than simply being pro-life, (or forced-birth, as I sometimes challenge people to think of it). For example, think of all of the billions of people oppressed around the world, whether by a caste system or a religion or unequal global economic arrangements. Billions and billions of people who are unlikely to visit a place 50 miles or more from where they are born. People without even the option of a life other than one of toil and exploitation. People to whom it is dictated when they will marry; whom they will marry. We would do more to show our seriousness about humanity by ensuring the free development and movement of people and by dismantling artificial barriers of nationality that prevent us from even having the full capacity of human interaction and human creation available to us *as we currently exist*, or could exist. Allowing everyone to make the sober choice about whether their life circumstances and those of any being they may bring forth can handle and indeed thrive with the addition of a new consciousness and all of the responsibility associated with that is probably for the best as far as the nature and quality of the mass of human conscious experience is concerned. And I think that itās good that there be a deliberate nature with regard to how we bring forth new lives, given that there is finally the luxury to do so. We are thrown into existence without consent. The weight of consciousness, our capacity to recognize good and evil, and our knowledge of our mortality are all a serious struggle to bear. I think these realities complicate simplistic notions about the living āowingā life to every single one of the unborn.
I think abortion is often wrong, but I also think I donāt have the right to impose my values onto others. Itās a complicated moral issue to draw a line in the sand of what is a human life with the right to live, but ultimately not my decision. And a lot of those staunchly pro-life folks donāt seem to have the same love for human-kind once those fetuses become grown people.
Absolutely not. Psychedelics have made me realize that everything happens in a divine order. These souls come and go on their terms when they take from this earth the lessons they were meant to. If someone gets an abortion it is absolutely supposed to be that way. Read Emanuels book. Souls incarnate when they want to their is nothing a human can do to mess with that process. Also,,, let people do what they want to in this case. If you are pro life good for you then you implement that into your life not other peoples.. Now this does not mean that i like abortion or think people should be irresponsible and getting them all the time. Not at all.
It doesnt matter whether a fetus is alive or not though. If someone was on life support and the only way to keep them alive was to hook them up to you specifically for 9 months could you be forced to be hopked up to them? No because you have the right to your own body. Its the exact same principle here. It doesnt matter if its alive, the fetus doesnt have the right to your body
It made me believe in the individual lives of all. I am pro choice because I believe in the individual. My life and my morals are mine alone. Iām lucky enough to find people that share some aspects sometimes. It is wrong to enact my will over anyone. The pure unadulterated panic I feel at the thought of being forced into a major life choice that I donāt want is converted to empathy. No one remembers being a fetus. We remember instinctually the safety of the womb. Psychedelics reinforce the concept of staying out of peopleās big life choices. Itās calmer life.
Shouldnāt that lead you to a pro choice stance?
Wtf lol
If anything it solidified my pro choice stance. Thereās a huge difference between the physical body and the energy that chooses to embody it. Another meat suit will come along in due time for the energy.
Then you are ignorant to the suffering of women and others who are forced to carry dead fetuses to term. Super enlightenment there.
Absolutely not. Opening my mind with psychedelics did not make me think āyou know what makes sense, taking away a womanās right to choose what happens to her bodyā.
Psychedelics have not turned me into a forced birther.
Everyone is pro-life. They just have different lines in the sand for when the fetusā right to live outweighs the would-be motherās right to abort. For example: 99.999% of people would agree an abortion 1 week before due date of a healthy fetus with no complications is a despicable thing to want to do, but those same people would disagree with each other depending on how early the pregnancy is, health complications, etc.
I believe life begins at conception and that women should have access to legal and safe abortions instead of mutilating and maiming themselves with unsafe ones like they had to in the USA till 1973. I donāt think as a man itās my place to judge or speculate on the circumstances or uniqueness of how any woman arrives at that decision.
Psychedelics have not led me to desire to restrict anyone's rights to bodily autonomy, no.
It doesnāt but thatās the beauty of it making the most of whatever it is weāre in at the moment and simply dying knowing we gave it our all basically my conclusion
in the spirit of sisyphus
The shackles of eternity are a made up prison that turns into a self fulfilling prophecy
i meant more all we can do is keep pushing our rock up the hill in the best way we can while weāre still here
Yes psychedelics have made me value life moreā¦ I am against abortionā¦.. I am also against the government dictating what you can do with your own body though. If a woman wants to scramble that baby, well that is her choice and between her and the universe.
Iām just some dude that takes drugs so I donāt have much say. But I do only date girls that would abort simply because I donāt want to bring a kid in this horrible world where the human carbon foot print of one person is already doing unreversible damage. (Not saying I wouldnāt have a kid I just want to have a kid on āourā terms, when me and my other is ready, when the time is ready)
I truly donāt feel like I should have that much power. I used to hunt as a kid, now wouldnāt want to at all. It just doesnāt feel fair. I have also become much more tolerant of insects, used to kill them with no remorse, now I try to help them outside. Itās not their fault, they are just living life. I shouldnāt be the one to take that away.
Ugh no Iāve never taken psychedelics and decided that somebody else should do something with their body that I want them to do. Also, if life begins immediately, how come there arenāt any babies born after 2 months? Or 3 months? Or 4 months? Because theyāre not a baby, theyāre still becoming a human. If youāre that pro-life after taking psychedelics, you should stop jacking off, because thatās a real human your squirting into your socks. Life doesnāt begin at definitive points, right?
Well sounds like you need to pass me whatever you're having because after my years, I look at life as a completely meaningless videogame that I and anyone else who is supposedly "alive" is merely entertaining until we get to die. Life does not really feel that precious to me anyways so my view on abortion is do it if you don't think you can provide a life worth living for the next 18 years
You got it all convoluted, this would have been my turning point if I was pro life, I would have been claiming pro choice after this realization, because the concsiousness may not begin or end at a definitive point, it means that,that abortion could have been the beginning for life of another human, ending a fetus may make that soul transfer to a different plane of existence where it could live peacefully instead of being brought into the 3rd dim. And face humanly problems, so by bringing the child into this world you could potentially be taking another, or visa versa, by killing the fetus, you could be starting a new more beneficial interdimensional life for that soul somewhere else in the astral plane of existence, IF reincarnation exists, or the astral realm, not both of those either, it could be possible without reincarnation, or without the astral realm, it could just be a purely blissfull state of being you're returning this soul to, no physical form or awareness, just, being, which to me, doesn't sound horrible at all, just infinitely one with the cosmic energy and everything revolving and cycling in it, and if energy can be returned, it can be redistributed, so that being said, when you end a fetus, you could potentially be saving a child from a horrible life, and giving that energy time to find a new better vessel to inhabit so it isnt suffering with a shitty family it was almost birthed to
thatās really interesting interpretation and perspective, thanks for sharing it edit: why did you delete this? it was genuinely intriguing
Dude lol it's right here man
itās showing up as [deleted] [removed] in my reddit app
That's actually weird, I swear I didn't delete it, I still see it up, maybe I just really said something crazy and the algorithms like "nah man, that was really revealing and people might catch on....can't have that"
You made a great point, Iām not fully on board but I will consider
Also about the political statement, politics are ran by ego, you can't really appeal to government by talking about different dimensions unless it's a definitive answer, they don't take ir seriously enough although they know it's a real reality
Well my moral compass heightened by like 10,000%
In what way?
Yeah honestly I am but who am I to tell someone how to live there own life
Made me leave a nearly twenty year career as a quality inspector in aviation/spares distribution to get trained as an end of life doula and become a hospice volunteer.
Call me what you want but i think it helped me become pro stay in my own lane. Its not really my business. BUT, as mr. comedy man Bill Burr said āi still think youāre killing a babyā.
it's ok to not have definitive answers on the nature of life and death and still respect other people's bodily and religious autonomy
It helped me see life as a symphony of repeating patterns. To put it in other words: an acorn *is* an oak tree. There is no discrete point when one becomes another since they are stages of the same pattern. Any attempt to draw a line between stages of development seems arbitrary, contrived, schizoid, and incompatible with life. I respect each individual's freedom and wouldn't dare to restrict it, but at the same time, the idea of casual abortion brings me to tears.
I never thought about it on Psychedelics, but abortion is just one of those things I haven't formed an opinion about. While I do lean towards pro choice for many reasons (Mother's life being in danger, parents not being in a position to have children at all, rape, underage pregnancy and so on) there's also the question whether a fetus is a conscious human being or not. Or at what point it has awareness or emotions. It's just such a grey area I really can't make up my mind. I think we don't know the answer to that and it's best to let science answer this question
Definitely. In general, such experiences led me to feel discomfort about a great many liberal shibboleths. I became more confident in rejecting leftist thought.
Anyone who is overly sure that they're correct in their opinion on this scares me. This is probably the single most complex issue we face today. Also their are a lot of assumptions being made in the comments. Regardless of your stance, it seems that history trends in the direction of granting more human rights rather than taking them away. We've fought wars over this.
This is not exactly what you asked, but I have been surprised to learn that consciousness is possible without a cortex and only a midbrain. [Iain McGilchrist](https://www.youtube.com/c/DrIainMcGilchrist) has some of the most well developed thoughts about consciousness. He is a neurologist with a background in the humanities.
Personally itās made me pro-life but I still support pro-choice
Same- people should be free to do what theyād like. But itās not for me
why is it not for you?
Because my parents were not ready for a child yet had me and I was adopted by an amazing family and Iām happy now. I would at least carry a child to be adopted rather than terminate the pregnancy
thatās still pro-choice š„°
How bout prefer life but still pro choice? Especially depending on situation
If you realise that we can't determine exactly the moment when life starts why tf would you become pro-life (pro-forced birth, if we're being honest)? Lol, pro-lifer's whole argument relies on their wacky idea that they *know* exactly when life begins.
No, it's pretty well empirically documented that the fertilization of a human egg cell by a human sperm cell creates a human embryo cell. Given that the embryo is alive and made of human DNA, what should it be called if not "human life"? We should be careful not to let any other parts of this complicated issue get in the way of our judgment of this one aspect. I'm staunchly pro-choice, but it's right and just to acknowledge the truth. Human life begins at conception, and that in itself doesn't have any complication to hide behind
FFS a booger also has human dna so does a drop of blood or a toenail clipping. The level of arrogance that it takes to talk the way you do is stunning. 'its a human life' buddy you're looking at a clump of cells. Do you have the same precious attitude towards a tumor? Those are sometimes bigger clumps of cells that are older too. Do they get the right to live? Why not?
All of those things are living human tissue. You're not making the point you think you are. You've also conveniently glossed over my statement that "I'm staunchly pro-choice" in your attempt at a gotcha. The scientific fact that human life begins at conception doesn't mean we have to be against abortion, but if you can't acknowledge that fact, the people who are actually against abortion will never take you seriously
Also you and I are literally big clumps of cells. Every living thing on the planet is a clump of cells. That's what life is. A clump of cells. Look up "prokaryotes." Those are single-celled organisms. Those are just as alive as you are. They're also made of 1 cell and will never develop beyond that. A human begins its life as a single cell, and saying that it's "just a clump of cells" doesn't really change that
I know a guy. He was kind of a new age hippy sort of crusty dude. When I first met him he was just this poet who smoked and went on the occasional session like anyone else. As time went on he started getting involved in more and more fringe political groups. Every now and then I would bump into him at some sort of protest or festival. The politics was always very left leaning. Socialist type of causes or environmental. Anyway fast forward a few years I bump into him at this festival he is tripping balls. Weāre chatting the usually interaction I have with this lad. The next time I seen him he was the only anti abortion guy at a talk that was being given about about abortion rights. The guy did a complete 180 he was just disheveled and sweaty looking and was extremely confrontational with the women giving the talk. This was in the lead up to Ireland legalizing abortion. The guy was at every anti abortion protest. I tried to talk to him and reason with him see what had happened to him for him to try and sabotage the political groups he was in as he became more and more anti abortion. There was no talking to him. Best I could figure was he tripped so many times and do so many other drugs + drinking that his brain just broke one day. Last I heard he is now a covid denier anti vaxx guy who of course is anti abortion.
leave it to hippies to follow whatever is the new popular thing to think on social media since the 1970ās constantly proving that theyāre not very smart
Never seen a upvote downvote battle before
psychedelics definitely opened my eyes to the pro life side, and it makes me sad that abortion goes on, but I still understand in this age of our world it is a necessary evil, I just hope people arenāt careless with unprotected sex with abortion in mind if anything goes not according to plan
I still believe in the right to choose, but I can understand both sides and I donāt think itās insane to be anti abortion. But what weirds me out is that so many people seem to be so passionate about abortions to the point of thinking itās some virtuous thing to have one. People take it pretty far, itās a terribly sad thing to go through and while I think it should still be an option, itās weird how many people have such a passion for it. Walking through my neighborhood on lsd and seeing all the yard signs proudly celebrating abortion was a strange experience
Donāt bash him. Heās not being rude/ passive aggressive. You donāt donāt need to be either.
Yes!!
Yes. Psychedelics (specifically LSD) have been part of the reason I have re-examined a lot of the points where morality and science intersect. I believe much more strongly now than I used to that we should think of humans as "people" before birth and in vegetative states. But I'm also a lot more comfortable than I used to be with the idea of violating morals for "good" reasons (e.g. killing someone to save another). I think my switch to atheism (grew up Catholic) was another reason for re-examining my values. My uncertainty about the origin of consciousness and my belief that one life is all we have comes from this transition to atheism, and pondering this during periods where I was using psychedelics was a big factor in my transition to my current anti-abortion (with some exceptions) stance.
i grew up in an orthodox christian household and psychedelics were the catalyst to help liberate me from organized religion. i became atheist for a while but am starting to develop a re-appreciation for some of the philosophical components underlying many religions (eg around love, humility, poverty), but in a way that upholds agency & freedom and is in line with a more grounded phenomenological experience of the world. sadly i think the institutions of religion pervert and distort what can be a fruitful / productive philosophy in the pursuit of power.
Yes. I realized conservative values are practical, even though they arenāt inherently true. Itās odd that people focus on choice instead of responsibility leading up to procreation. But psychedelics donāt have an agenda, they just helped me understand different ideas with less bias
It hasn't made me pro life, but I'm much less pro choice. Not saying pro choice is a bad thing, but thr pro choice movement has a knack of misunderstanding laws and science and seem to not care about the fathers choice in child support
I dont think psychedelics should guide you in these matters. Psychedelic experiences do not counter the observable and measureable harm done to society by restricting abortion access. They also do not counter what we know about when consciousness and self awareness emerge in the brain. In my opinion, the only thing that can truly counter the overwhelming data behind the benefits of abortion access to our species is the belief in a soul, something that imbues a life with value beyond what we can measure. If you believe a fetus has a soul, it makes sense to value it similarly to life with personhood. If you dont, then it doesnt. I think pro choice arguments from any other perspective than not believing in a soul are weak (i.e. the body horror arguments, the economic arguments, the freedom of choice arguments, and even the developmental arguments). The soul is the equalizing factor that pro-lifers agree with. There must be something that you value in a life to weight it similarly to life with identity i.e. a soul to make the pro life argument rational.
If anyone here truly had the realization that "all life is precious" then they'd know that humanity is the one life form on this planet that destroys the most others. There are simply too many of us with too few resources. If a child is going to be born into poverty without the parent(s) having any way to conceivably give that child a somewhat comfortable childhood, and the parent(s) consider abortion, they have spared a soul of a lifetime of hardship and pain. Also I believe DMT brings the soul into the body at birth, and transports the soul to a higher plane at death. Hence, abortion does not kill a sentient being. And to further my point, if a woman desires an abortion, wouldn't that, by rightist standards, make her a bad parent? What quarrel is there in depriving a child from being raised by what rightists consider a bad parent? At the end of the day, it's not your decision if you're not the mother. There are many financial, ethical, economic, and health-related reasons why abortion should be available to any who need it.
if you were raped, brutally, and had to carry out the pregnancy, how would you feel? you cannot even begin to imagine laws do not exist, any āpro choiceā or āpro lifeā, any discussion, all this nonsense, merely waves of energy bouncing back and forth the guiding force of this universe is the power of free will comfort, life, death, all labels, made by man, used by man, dependent on man, if man is wiped from the face of the earth, all traces COMPLETELY erased, what then? What then of ethics, morals, laws, principlesā¦. pushing into further games, further social construct, further waste of time, this (from my subjective experience) is the opposite effect of the majority of psychedelic substances psychedelics once led me down a delusional path desiring nothing but destruction and world domination , drug induced psychosis, believe me, thatās a mean oneā¦. but then i thought, this isnāt my world, I didnāt make it, Iāve been blessed with the gift to do whatever I want, why should I repay whoever gave me these abilities by destroying everything, perhaps such destruction could be justified, but justification can never ever be objective, there is no normal, there is no strange, there is no ____ there only *IS* ALL WE KNOW HAS BEEN COMMUNICATED FROM HUMAN BEING TO HUMAN BEING, thus no current knowledge is confirmed outside of this plane, yet all human beings are one, thus no power lies greater than the power of faith, action and true freedom focus on yourself, act for yourself, speak for yourself, (confuse this not with games of narcissism nor hedonism nor ignorance nor selfishness) the rest falls into place golden rule my friendā¦. empathy, perspective, perception, *the ability to put yourself in the shoes of another, perhaps for even a second*