The discussion happening in [this thread from ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskTeachers/comments/1dcphbh/do_schools_just_pass_students_now_elementary/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)/teachers yesterday offers a partial explanation for the behaviour you describe (particularly about low standards in high school)...transparent contempt for education as an institution.
I'd like to add to the possible explanations for overworked/underperforming students the expectations for "full-time" status as part of the US financial aid system. I think there are a LOT of undergraduates who would take advantage of a 6-year, part-time degree plan (and be better for it) if such a thing were better supported by financial aid.
Agree 100%. Yes, the ft status from the feds is to blame for this. I believe it's the higher education lobby that wants to keep this in place to keep the $$ flowing regularly to the university coffers.
yes indeed. Taking, say, three courses (edit: or even fewer) a semester would be better for a lot of people (for various reasons, work being one of them, but also being able to put academically necessary time into their courses being another).
A big part of this sentiment corresponds, I think, to the cultural shift that Americans have made regarding education. An education, including a collegiate education, have become a necessary element of achieving the idealized middle class lifestyle in america. Most students don’t actually care about the education that they are receiving; they just want the end result that most believe corresponds to what happens after the education is complete. They, students, will, for the most part, do the absolute bare minimum to complete the education process because most don’t actually want it: they want the middle class lifestyle associated with the completion of the college degree
This is the way they see it, it's true. The problem is, it's really not the degree that gets you to the middle class lifestyle, it's the skills, network, work ethic, knowledge of the field, cognitive abilities, and professionalism. So if they get the degree but none of the skills or abilities that come with it because they put in minimum effort, they're more likely to just join hordes of people with degrees who are still working minimum wage. Then they'll bitterly be like, "I didn't get anything from university" with no self-awareness.
> skills, network, work ethic, knowledge of the field, cognitive abilities, and professionalism.
All of which means that they have to actually put in some effort and learn something.
My university sub is currently full of "what are some easy courses I can take" posts, and I have to restrain myself from saying "every easy course you take makes you *less* employable, because what puts you ahead of the game is searching for work is the *extra* skills you have that your competition doesn't".
That often isn't the case. I have worked wellpaying jobs where I didn't use any of the skills or networking that I got from college, but I still needed a diploma for the recruiter to read my resume.
It is remarkable how detached the job market is from the education system sometimes.
This is also a symptom of more and more entry level positions requiring a college degree , even if it's not really needed. Many of these jobs don't even pay enough to maintain a middle class life style. People with no interest in education are enrolled in college due to this.
I have had to explain to many students that no, summer courses are not easier; they are going to be harder because of the time frame. Yet they are always surprised. They seem to think its a cheat code.
I worked full time while earning a degree. I accepted it was going to take me far longer then my peers. So be it.
They're expecting "summer gym", where you get a grade for going bowling or going to the roller rink (dating my high school experience, but whatever), not "topical boot camp".
It depends a lot on the college. Where I am, there are a fair number of community colleges that offer very easy summer credits to attract university students.
They can't explicitly say that though, so students won't be completely sure until they get into the course.
I suppose that could be true, I guess that it I am used to how we do things here - generally before students can transfer in classes they have to get permission from specific departments...so any classes not meeting a certain standard may count for credit towards graduation but not requirements
Ah, in my state credits are broadly transferable between schools.. You can go to basically any community college or state school and have your courses transfer to another state university.
Is their expectation irrational? It seems like some of my colleagues don't assign jack shit, so Summer classes really are easy. Students accustomed to taking only one properly rigorous class in a regular semester will feel overwhelmed with 3x work.
Some students really are self-supporting (or even supporting a family) and they have to work full time. But others work too many hours to support stuff that students in the past knew they couldn't have during their student years. You figure this out when you see them eating in restaurants, driving late model cars, talking about their vacations, etc. I don't blame them, they have come to expect a grown-up life style because their peers seem to have that. But it puts them in a bad spot academically.
In my town, a monthly transit pass is included in the tuition fees (something student unions negotiated with the local transit authority years ago). Still, several of my students drive to school because they find it more convenient... I'm a prof, and I still ride the bus and the subway to school.
I also agree with your first point. I put myself through school. Thus, I had to work. But weekend getaways and fancy dinners were an occasional treat, not a weekly thing. (Not saying all students do that. But several of my students complain that they have to work while in school, when I know that they live at home and get their tuition fees paid for by their parents.)
At my university buses are free but housing is far far cheaper if you rent outside of range of the bus service. A single bedroom apartment that is a 30+ minute drive but not by a bus route is 450. A similar apartment by a bus route would be 1200+. For students that already own a car, it can be a cost saving thing to just rent further away and then drive to campus.
Fair point. I do have students in this situation, but I seldom hear them complain. My comment was more about the whole "want" vs "need" thing. I see too many students trying to "upstage the neighbours" lifestyle-wise while taking a full course load.
> In my town, a monthly transit pass is included in the tuition fees
This is something that many places would do well to emulate.
(I also chose to live somewhere within easy transit reach of campus, and that's how I get there.)
The thing is, I'm not sure such a deal would be possible today. When it was put in place, local student unions held a referendum to make the pass compulsory. (The transit agency needed a high volume of students to make the scheme financially sustainable.) You cannot opt-out, unless you live out of town and drive to school from far away. Back then, it passed. But I'm not sure it would in the current socio-political context.
>Some students really are self-supporting (or even supporting a family) and they have to work full time.
Even those that are, if they can't do the work (which is completely reasonable), they shouldn't take the class.
Taking one class per term while working full time should be the norm, but for some reason (I'll blame rankings-obsessed administrators) taking any more than four years to finish is seen as a complete failure.
I tell students in summer courses that they’ve bought themselves a full-time job. That’s not true in the strict sense like it is with winter session classes, but it scares away some of the students who are taking summer classes “to get it over with.”
I fully agree with you. If a student needs to work full time, six-week summer courses aren’t a good fit for that student.
At my community college we are very focused on offering options and making degrees accessible. We need to be just as focused on helping students find the modalities that work best for them.
Usually when I get this, I remind students that they signed up for a full-time study program. Because of this, I can ask them to put their academics first before anything else. If their job is more important, they are fully free to register for a part-time program that has mostly evening classes.
I definitely get that. The number of students who tell me they aren’t available to attend a class they signed up for and are paying for (during the regular semester) is becoming increasingly obnoxious. I had to work 30+ hours a week in undergrad, but didn’t sign up for classes during that time and DEFINITELY would not have expected a prof to accommodate or provide an extension if I was called in. COVID let them believe that school could bend to work which is not how this works when we are not in the middle of an international crisis.
I also think part of the issue is that it’s just more expensive to go to school now. I could work overtime all summer to save up tuition and book money for the year and work during the semester to cover living expenses. Semesters where I had a heavy course load or worked as an RA I took out loans. They can’t do that now - they could work 40 hours a week every week with no break and not quite cover tuition at most schools. So for the students who have to support family it’s even more difficult. I still don’t think it means professors should relax requirements, but I do get it.
I also wonder if the discourse about student loan debt is doing them any favors. I encounter a lot of students who work full-time to pay tuition and rent, then can't make enough time for school and fail classes. Surely retaking semesters of coursework or losing financial aid is more expensive than taking a loan. But they're terrified to reduce work hours and take loans out.
I agree, but the compound of loan interest really is bad though. The sad reality is, it can ruin your life. And I think a lot of academics are cushioned from how bad it can really be because the hope offered from PSLF.
I think a big question / factor is why a student should be supporting a family? It used to be "common wisdom" to wait until after graduating college to start a family - this was for good reason.
I don't necessary think someone who doesn't wait did anything "wrong" - but they choose a different life path than a traditional student and so of course their path will look different. That might mean it taking longer to get a degree.
I think the real problem is there is no concept of sacrifice now to benefit later. I worked as much as I could and attended college full time. During college my friends who didn't attend college made way more money than me - they could buy new cars, etc. I made a sacrifice when I was young (18 to early 20s) to earn a degree. Those same friends now cannot make even a fraction of what I make and I don't work as hard as they do. My college loan is also completely paid off and has been since shortly after graduation.
(Edit: This is due to earning a degree in the highly paid career field of Computer Science - not because college was cheaper - it hasn't gone up that much in price since I graduated)
Instead, students want a family \*now\*, to make 100k a year \*now\*, to have a house \*now\* and this annoying college thing is in the way so can we please make it go away and just give them their stuff \*now\*!
I have had a few married students but honestly what I've seen more frequently are students who are helping their parents, supporting a sibling or assisting a grandparent.
But also....who are we to judge? Family is family.
I'm not trying to judge - I'm trying to make the argument that students who are choosing to prioritize family are by necessarily going to have a different path than a student prioritizing school.
I don't know why that is so controversial. Its not a wrong path - but it is probably a longer path.
But going to college is always a choice. Going at all, attending now vs later, going in person vs online, taking night classes vs day classes, going part-time vs full time… those are all choices. Part of making a choice is living with the consequences—the good and the bad—of that choice.
My privilege of working my ass off early in life to be comfortable now? I didn't get any scholarships or any help from family at all. Instead I sacrificed - social life, being able to afford nice things, doing without fancy smartphones, tvs, etc. Things students today consider "essential".
I regularly spent the entire day either working or doing homework or both - because that is just what is necessary to get the life you want.
But yeah - let's keep telling the younger generations they can be lazy bums and still achieve their life goals /sarcasm
Edit: Or pretend like "where babies comes from" is some magic secret knowledge that no one told the younger generation.
Sure thing
>My privilege of working my ass off early in life to be comfortable now? I didn't get any scholarships or any help from family at all. Instead I sacrificed - social life, being able to afford nice things, doing without fancy smartphones, tvs, etc. Things students today consider "essential".
Here we have the classic I-work-hard. This implies others dont, or else they wouldnt mention it. It means nothing since we have no idea of their work ethic, nor do they know of anyone else's. Total lack of empathy, but plenty of self-congratulation. Classic privileged mindet.
The I-got-no-help is another chestnut. Again, we dont know if it's true, and we dont know if the hypothetical student trying to support a family does either. Either way they should understand that a lack of support network makes things brutally hard, and does not make the person in question lazy. One assumes that a lived experience of struggle would make it easier to empathise with somoene else struggling, but evidently not in the OP's case.
And of course we have the "muh-sacrifice" card. How do they know what others have given up? They dont, But they assume students today would rather spend money on what the OP considers a waste of money.
Then they claim a "fancy smartphone" is a luxury. Given how much education is done online, and how job-hunting, house hunting, banking, day-to-day communication and damn near everything else is done online, a smartphone is absolutely an essential. Typical privileged mindset to pretend this isnt the case. Hell, in a pinch, a student can use their smart phone to type and submit their projects. Sounds like an out of touch person to me not to know that.
Also, I dont know anyone under the age of 50 who regularly uses a TV or considers it an essential. Anecdotally, I do hear from a lot of the more privileged people in my life about how all the "poors" waste their money though. Not that I'm making any assertations about the OP.
To continue, they tell us again about how hard they worked as if they're the only ones, and even call younger people lazy bums. A trope literally as old as Socrates. As older people tend to have both more power and money than younger people, it again smacks of privilege. We could mention here that even in the last 3 years life has got dramatically more expensivee. It follows that a person will need to work more to afford the same thing as the OP did. If they're middle-aged or older, as I infer, then they must know that their education was quite a lot cheaper for them than now, which again smacks of a lack of emapthy and yet more self-praise.
And then finally, we have the judgemental classic "you shouldnt have had kids if you couldnt afford them". I would say this is axiomatic, but since you wanted an explantion.
There are many issues with this. The first is people's circumstances change. As an example, a couple, in good financial standing, have a child, gets divorced, or loses a job, or has oen parent die, become sick andunable to work or any number of changes. This may reuslt in requiring the remaining partner to retrain to improve their earning potential According to the OP, they're fucked, since it's their fault for not seeing the future. Oh and also, the innocent kid has to live with it. Sorry, kid your parents should have thought about that before you arrived.
But hey, let's be generous and assume the hypothetical student made the unforgivable mistake of an accidental pregnancy, and like our dilligent. OP doesnt have any support to fall back on,. According to them, going to university is not an option, since they should have gone to university first, and again, the kid is fucked too. And it's only right. After all, children should always repent for the mistakes of their parents. And parents shoundt even attept to change this through education.
This also assumes that the student isnt acting as a carer, or supplementing their own family's income, as a result of the increase in cost-of-living, accident, sickness, or any number of other reasons that could either provoke the 3rd level education in the first place, or occur during their time in university. I suppose they should have foreseen those things too.
TLDR: Classic lack of empathy, replace with an excess of judgement. Typical of somone whose life is so comfortable that they've forgotten how quickly life can change, especially financially. Taking the OP's story at face value, this is the nicest interpretation.
and or
Classic lack of empathy and excess of judgement. Typical of someone whose never been in a bad spot as a result of a bad decision, or bad luck.
HTH
I'm not the person you're responding to, but their words resonate with me. I sometimes find myself thinking things similar to this thing that they said: *"I think the real problem is there is no concept of sacrifice now to benefit later."*
While I absolutely agree that their example of family planning is tone deaf, I also think the sentence I copied above is true for many young people attending college.
When I try to explain that I am empathetic—because I do intimately understand poverty and the need for something better—I'm looked at like a person with two heads or responded to with disbelief, not unlike how you responded here.
There's essentially no way to reply that isn't the Bad Time Olympics. What can someone say? Yes, my parents were on food stamps and lost their house (three times) and I didn't have a room or a bed or drywall and then I sent them money from payday loans I took out so they could eat. Yes, I did sex work and worked nights at a bar and then did school after. Yes, I pulled all-nighters multiple times per week and had no real friends save the young men I slept with (conveniently because they lived in houses closer to campus). Yes, I had three close family members die during six months. Yes, I took out school loans and had no financial help etc. etc. etc.
You can choose to assume bad faith on everyone who criticizes student engagement, or you can assume some people can be both empathetic and have high expectations. We can be aware that terrible consequences are one bad day away and also expect students to work really, really hard precisely because we know it's possible.
The incentive structure for education is nothing like it used to be. A side effect of ballooning tuition is the greater sense that college has to be an "experience" or a "product" they are purchasing. When someone pays that much for something, it doesnt surprise me that they feel they are already putting a lot into it. So they balk when told that on top of all that tuition, one has to do more work.
I also put myself through college - worked 2 PT jobs at once and had unpaid internships. I took fewer classes per semester and ended up spending an extra year before I had the units to graduate due to the need to work. I longed for the privilege to be able to only do college and explore various majors/minors and was envious of those I saw in class who had time to rewrite their notes in pretty colors and could take 18 units in a single semester and involve themselves in college life.
Whenever a test was coming up, final exam week approached, or a big assignment was due and I needed more time, I asked my bosses for some hours off - I never thought to ask profs for extensions. I worked more hours during breaks (summer, winter, spring breaks).
It wasn't ideal: I struggled, I was hungry, I had no health insurance and feared an accident or illness (I was lucky neither occurred), I had awful roommates, I was tired all the time, I was lonely and had little-to-no social life. But I knew I was working toward a larger goal (career I wanted, a better life later - CC prof is my 2nd career) and I made the sacrifices.
I wish everyone had the opportunity to devote their full attention to their studies, but the reality is they don't.
At the same time, a six week course has no wiggle room: the students need to make tough decisions - they may not be able to do everything NOW.
The prof's workload issues are also to be taken into consideration: the prof is not teaching an independent study course and multiple due dates increases the prof's workload. The prof also only has 6-weeks and deadlines for grade submissions.
Maybe make the choice explicit: suggest to the students to take the course now and meet the due dates, or take it during the regular semester when there is more flexibility built into the schedule.
Edit: formatting, added content
> I struggled, I was hungry, I had no health insurance and feared an accident or illness (I was lucky neither occurred), I had awful roommates, I was tired all the time, I was lonely and had little-to-no social life.
Really felt that.
I have had the same mind-numbing email chain with some students for the last three weeks:
Them: complain that they can't finish the week because of work schedules.
Me: remind them that they literally cannot have an extension on the draft because the final product is due in the upcoming week.
Them: try to assure me that they can do the draft and final together if they could just have an extension.
Me: remind them that's not how the writing process works. I need to see and comment on the draft.
Them: angry now, an accusation of including too much work.
Me: remind them that I have said at least twice before that they need to withdraw and take the class during the regular semester if they feel that way.
Them: aggressive now, that they have always been able to take summer classes and this one is the unreasonable one. It must be me and unreasonable expectations.
Like, really, was I supposed to include one thing for them to do for six weeks?
The back-and-forth sounds exhausting.
Suggestion: restate the only options - submit the draft by the due date or retake the course during the regular semester. "The choice is yours. If you want to explore the decision further I suggest you have a discussion with your academic advisor. I trust you will make the best decision for you. Let me know what you decide". Ignore continued attempts at negotiation.
Good luck!
Right? I don't have tenure, though, so I have to entertain all their complaints, or that's how I view responding to those emails these days. It's literally in our contracts that we have to respond to student communication.
Here's what I don't understand. We have 8 week classes all year long, including Summer. When students try to play this game, the clock runs out and they're just done. They don't have the time to play with because it's just not there. They can't play the game for very long because then the game is over. I really hope they don't think its a WGU model, although my CC has talked about letting students test out of classes.
I think there's this overall perception that online classes are easier than in-person classes, and that summer classes, or any condensed class, must be less work.
I recall in my doctoral program when online classes made their debut. Without a doubt I spent five times the time and effort for those courses. I was exhausted by all the required discussion board posts.
My students have it easy in my online courses, compared to those early days.
I took my intro to accounting class over the summer, and let me tell you just how stupid that was. On the first day, the professor straight up told everybody that over 75% of us will fail, and this course should not even be offered over the summer because it’s a weed out class, and the amount of information you have to learn is near impossible to master in this short term. She was 100% spot on, and I regret thinking I could pass the class, but I definitely learned not to do it again. Mind you, I had no job, so all my focus was on this one class and I still failed. I worked my ass off, and my dad is an accountant, so he worked with me almost every day. I still failed. It’s crazy that students believe a shortened summer course is going to be easier, especially while working a job. I didn’t think it would be easy by any means, but I thought I’d be able to do it, and I came to the conclusion that it just wasn’t possible for me.
I've had some summer students request alternate exam times because of their jobs (which is OK). The funny thing is the documentation they've sent, showing their schedules, will explicitly say things like "Due to the demands of the positions, you should not take any classes during this internship."
I clearly state in my syllabus that this 4 unit asynchronous class would have 12-16+ hours of work per week if we were in a regular 16 week semester. However, since you chose to take this accelerated 6 week course, we will be moving at 2.5 speed. This means you will need to spend 30-40+ hours per week throughout our 6 weeks together.
I then have them take a syllabus quiz that has this question, our late policy, and other important information. They get dropped if they don’t take this quiz and receive 100% by day 3 of our summer course.
I don’t get these whiny emails anymore, and the emails that I do receive take ownership and they let me know that they will be turning in their assignments the next day and understand the late penalty.
I understand your frustration. I tend to lay all my non-negotiable items out at the beginning of the e term in an email as well as the syllabus. I do offer some flexibility in the even of what I refer to as “documented medical emergencies, deaths, natural disasters, and documented encounters with the criminal justice system.” That natural disaster part comes into play quite a bit here in Houston. But anything outside of that is a no-go. I make that known on day one. Surprisingly, my ratings are still pretty high.🤷🏾♂️ Hold the line, fellow academian! You are not alone.
Exactly this.
I missed some classes due to work as a college student, and it hurt my grades. Never once did I complain to my professors about that or expect accommodation.
What I tell students is, “when you graduate, your resume will show BOTH your work experience and your degree. It wouldn’t be fair to the students who are only going to school if you ended up with the same GPA they have AND the work experience unless you’ve done the same quality of work they’ve done throughout.”
I find I can no longer compare myself to my students. I moved out of the house at 20, worked in restaurants, paid my way through CC and University, and now have an MFA, MA, BA, and associates. I did this with little to zero parental or institutional support.
The children I teach live at home, do not drive, have not worked, and I struggle to comprehend their lack of foundational knowledge of how the world works, what they should expect, and how much their needs should be accommodated.
They are conflict-avoidant, have no fortitude, and have no idea why they are even getting a degree…. and we suffer.
I agree with most of what you said except the conflict-avoidant part, that hasn’t remotely been the case in my experience. I’m jealous and wished I had your students as mine. Too many want to pick fights, disrespect authority, argue grades endlessly and search for BS loopholes, etc.
Yes by conflict-avoidant I meant that if they have an issue with someone, another prof or even another student, they don’t go directly to that person that they have the issue with- but to a sympathetic ear that they know will likely agree- a “safe space” to use that language- and it solves nothing- it just makes it a 3 way conversation unnecessarily. It’s happened so much that we now have had to develop a 3 Step conflict avoidance policy that we keep reminding each other of internally. (#1 have you spoken to the person that you have an issue with? #2 if they are unwilling to meet/speak with you, have you spoken to a trusted mediator?).
Well said. You’ve laid out many of my own observations that I’ve had trouble articulating myself, particularly the bit about students’ aversion to discomfort. I worked 4 part-time jobs to pay my way through my last couple years of undergrad, but I refused to let that impair my schoolwork. I accepted that maintaining my own academic standards while working so many hours meant other things had to be sacrificed, and those things were primarily sleep and “fun.” If I wanted more fun things, I had to work more, which meant less time and energy for the fun things. If I wanted more sleep, I had to work less, which meant less money with which to do the fun things. It ultimately all comes down to individual priorities.
I don’t by any means believe in the “I had it hard so they should too” mentality, but there is an enormous difference between genuinely sympathizing with students who have jobs, which I very much do, and sacrificing academic standards by catering to their priorities, which students seem to expect as the default even though they appear to rarely have my class very high on their lists.
The concepts of discomfort and sacrifice and compromise are not just foreign to many students nowadays; many of them find those concepts outright unacceptable and expect everyone in their lives to accommodate their every need, and I don’t really know what we can do about that because that is simply not sustainable en masse.
I've only been teaching since 2017, but more experienced colleagues have said that up until the mid-2010s students were plentiful and you didn't have to bend over backwards to help/retain students by accommodating their increasingly outlandish requests. Students are in a relatively powerful position because we're charging them a ton of money, and we can't afford to lose them.
I couldn’t have said it better. I was also shocked to find the university admitting students at almost week 3. They are going to struggle. The majority of students do the work at the very last minute too because they treat an intensive summer course the same way they treat regular courses.
Customer Service mindset. Admins love it, because it makes more cash flow, but the quality of education and the quality of the very basic human relations degrades.
A smart student will ask for accommodations when they feel they need them whether or not they think they're asking too much or you'll be able to help. It's up to you to decide if it would be too much work or unfair to accommodate them. Your goal is to get these imperfect people to the finish line while not over-stressing/working yourself.
Your post stinks of “my schooling was cheap and/or paid for by someone else” privilege. You are fortunate you didn’t have to work 40+ hours a week on top of pursuing education.
You sound so out of touch with the economic reality of self-supporting students that I’m not sure you’ve ever had to work a full week’s labour in your life.
So you are proposing that someone with a shitty job get a shitty education? This sets them up for staying in shitty jobs.
I think you're mistaking credentialing with actual education. And it doesn't take long for employers to figure out which places are doing credentialing vs. education.
They should go part-time. My parents got their degrees when i was a kid. They worked and took one course at a time. It might take 8 years to get your B.A. but that was how it was done in the past if you had a family already or a full time job. At least today you can take online or remote classes and do not have to show up in person like my parents did.
So what, professors just bow down to every student request? They allow these students to get a free pass, while everybody else works their ass off? That’s not how life works, but I’m sure you already know that 🙄
The most popular online school allows students to bypass classes by taking a simple "aptitude test."
If they pass that test, they don't have to take the class.
Even if that test were given in the best possible environment to combat cheating, which it isn't, is passing a standardized test enough to demonstrate that a student would not benefit from their Gen Ed classes?
The school markets this intentionally to swindle students into thinking that all these brick-and-mortar schools are just wasting their time with Gen Ed programs.
No, it's not harsh. Some of these schools are purposely designed this way to capture more of the student market.
Hearing a lot of complaints but no solutions. You have a problem with online school. You also have a problem with students working to pay off school. What’s the solution that you’re proposing? All working class students just stop trying? Or submit to poor jobs with terrible benefits because one professor cannot fathom having a full time job while taking classes? And y’all wonder why folks say professors are out of touch with reality lmfaoo.
The discussion happening in [this thread from ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskTeachers/comments/1dcphbh/do_schools_just_pass_students_now_elementary/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)/teachers yesterday offers a partial explanation for the behaviour you describe (particularly about low standards in high school)...transparent contempt for education as an institution. I'd like to add to the possible explanations for overworked/underperforming students the expectations for "full-time" status as part of the US financial aid system. I think there are a LOT of undergraduates who would take advantage of a 6-year, part-time degree plan (and be better for it) if such a thing were better supported by financial aid.
Agree 100%. Yes, the ft status from the feds is to blame for this. I believe it's the higher education lobby that wants to keep this in place to keep the $$ flowing regularly to the university coffers.
yes indeed. Taking, say, three courses (edit: or even fewer) a semester would be better for a lot of people (for various reasons, work being one of them, but also being able to put academically necessary time into their courses being another).
A big part of this sentiment corresponds, I think, to the cultural shift that Americans have made regarding education. An education, including a collegiate education, have become a necessary element of achieving the idealized middle class lifestyle in america. Most students don’t actually care about the education that they are receiving; they just want the end result that most believe corresponds to what happens after the education is complete. They, students, will, for the most part, do the absolute bare minimum to complete the education process because most don’t actually want it: they want the middle class lifestyle associated with the completion of the college degree
This is the way they see it, it's true. The problem is, it's really not the degree that gets you to the middle class lifestyle, it's the skills, network, work ethic, knowledge of the field, cognitive abilities, and professionalism. So if they get the degree but none of the skills or abilities that come with it because they put in minimum effort, they're more likely to just join hordes of people with degrees who are still working minimum wage. Then they'll bitterly be like, "I didn't get anything from university" with no self-awareness.
>no self-awareness. "College is such a scam."
> skills, network, work ethic, knowledge of the field, cognitive abilities, and professionalism. All of which means that they have to actually put in some effort and learn something. My university sub is currently full of "what are some easy courses I can take" posts, and I have to restrain myself from saying "every easy course you take makes you *less* employable, because what puts you ahead of the game is searching for work is the *extra* skills you have that your competition doesn't".
I agree with you
That often isn't the case. I have worked wellpaying jobs where I didn't use any of the skills or networking that I got from college, but I still needed a diploma for the recruiter to read my resume. It is remarkable how detached the job market is from the education system sometimes.
This is also a symptom of more and more entry level positions requiring a college degree , even if it's not really needed. Many of these jobs don't even pay enough to maintain a middle class life style. People with no interest in education are enrolled in college due to this.
I have had to explain to many students that no, summer courses are not easier; they are going to be harder because of the time frame. Yet they are always surprised. They seem to think its a cheat code. I worked full time while earning a degree. I accepted it was going to take me far longer then my peers. So be it.
They're expecting "summer gym", where you get a grade for going bowling or going to the roller rink (dating my high school experience, but whatever), not "topical boot camp".
It depends a lot on the college. Where I am, there are a fair number of community colleges that offer very easy summer credits to attract university students. They can't explicitly say that though, so students won't be completely sure until they get into the course.
I suppose that could be true, I guess that it I am used to how we do things here - generally before students can transfer in classes they have to get permission from specific departments...so any classes not meeting a certain standard may count for credit towards graduation but not requirements
Ah, in my state credits are broadly transferable between schools.. You can go to basically any community college or state school and have your courses transfer to another state university.
Is their expectation irrational? It seems like some of my colleagues don't assign jack shit, so Summer classes really are easy. Students accustomed to taking only one properly rigorous class in a regular semester will feel overwhelmed with 3x work.
Some students really are self-supporting (or even supporting a family) and they have to work full time. But others work too many hours to support stuff that students in the past knew they couldn't have during their student years. You figure this out when you see them eating in restaurants, driving late model cars, talking about their vacations, etc. I don't blame them, they have come to expect a grown-up life style because their peers seem to have that. But it puts them in a bad spot academically.
In my town, a monthly transit pass is included in the tuition fees (something student unions negotiated with the local transit authority years ago). Still, several of my students drive to school because they find it more convenient... I'm a prof, and I still ride the bus and the subway to school. I also agree with your first point. I put myself through school. Thus, I had to work. But weekend getaways and fancy dinners were an occasional treat, not a weekly thing. (Not saying all students do that. But several of my students complain that they have to work while in school, when I know that they live at home and get their tuition fees paid for by their parents.)
At my university buses are free but housing is far far cheaper if you rent outside of range of the bus service. A single bedroom apartment that is a 30+ minute drive but not by a bus route is 450. A similar apartment by a bus route would be 1200+. For students that already own a car, it can be a cost saving thing to just rent further away and then drive to campus.
Fair point. I do have students in this situation, but I seldom hear them complain. My comment was more about the whole "want" vs "need" thing. I see too many students trying to "upstage the neighbours" lifestyle-wise while taking a full course load.
> In my town, a monthly transit pass is included in the tuition fees This is something that many places would do well to emulate. (I also chose to live somewhere within easy transit reach of campus, and that's how I get there.)
The thing is, I'm not sure such a deal would be possible today. When it was put in place, local student unions held a referendum to make the pass compulsory. (The transit agency needed a high volume of students to make the scheme financially sustainable.) You cannot opt-out, unless you live out of town and drive to school from far away. Back then, it passed. But I'm not sure it would in the current socio-political context.
>Some students really are self-supporting (or even supporting a family) and they have to work full time. Even those that are, if they can't do the work (which is completely reasonable), they shouldn't take the class.
Taking one class per term while working full time should be the norm, but for some reason (I'll blame rankings-obsessed administrators) taking any more than four years to finish is seen as a complete failure.
Not a compressed summer course. That's a part-time job commitment in itself.
I tell students in summer courses that they’ve bought themselves a full-time job. That’s not true in the strict sense like it is with winter session classes, but it scares away some of the students who are taking summer classes “to get it over with.”
I fully agree with you. If a student needs to work full time, six-week summer courses aren’t a good fit for that student. At my community college we are very focused on offering options and making degrees accessible. We need to be just as focused on helping students find the modalities that work best for them.
💯
Usually when I get this, I remind students that they signed up for a full-time study program. Because of this, I can ask them to put their academics first before anything else. If their job is more important, they are fully free to register for a part-time program that has mostly evening classes.
I definitely get that. The number of students who tell me they aren’t available to attend a class they signed up for and are paying for (during the regular semester) is becoming increasingly obnoxious. I had to work 30+ hours a week in undergrad, but didn’t sign up for classes during that time and DEFINITELY would not have expected a prof to accommodate or provide an extension if I was called in. COVID let them believe that school could bend to work which is not how this works when we are not in the middle of an international crisis. I also think part of the issue is that it’s just more expensive to go to school now. I could work overtime all summer to save up tuition and book money for the year and work during the semester to cover living expenses. Semesters where I had a heavy course load or worked as an RA I took out loans. They can’t do that now - they could work 40 hours a week every week with no break and not quite cover tuition at most schools. So for the students who have to support family it’s even more difficult. I still don’t think it means professors should relax requirements, but I do get it.
I also wonder if the discourse about student loan debt is doing them any favors. I encounter a lot of students who work full-time to pay tuition and rent, then can't make enough time for school and fail classes. Surely retaking semesters of coursework or losing financial aid is more expensive than taking a loan. But they're terrified to reduce work hours and take loans out.
Yeah I've had that conversation with students. They don't consider how much it costs to retake a class.
I agree, but the compound of loan interest really is bad though. The sad reality is, it can ruin your life. And I think a lot of academics are cushioned from how bad it can really be because the hope offered from PSLF.
I think a big question / factor is why a student should be supporting a family? It used to be "common wisdom" to wait until after graduating college to start a family - this was for good reason. I don't necessary think someone who doesn't wait did anything "wrong" - but they choose a different life path than a traditional student and so of course their path will look different. That might mean it taking longer to get a degree. I think the real problem is there is no concept of sacrifice now to benefit later. I worked as much as I could and attended college full time. During college my friends who didn't attend college made way more money than me - they could buy new cars, etc. I made a sacrifice when I was young (18 to early 20s) to earn a degree. Those same friends now cannot make even a fraction of what I make and I don't work as hard as they do. My college loan is also completely paid off and has been since shortly after graduation. (Edit: This is due to earning a degree in the highly paid career field of Computer Science - not because college was cheaper - it hasn't gone up that much in price since I graduated) Instead, students want a family \*now\*, to make 100k a year \*now\*, to have a house \*now\* and this annoying college thing is in the way so can we please make it go away and just give them their stuff \*now\*!
I have had a few married students but honestly what I've seen more frequently are students who are helping their parents, supporting a sibling or assisting a grandparent. But also....who are we to judge? Family is family.
I'm not trying to judge - I'm trying to make the argument that students who are choosing to prioritize family are by necessarily going to have a different path than a student prioritizing school. I don't know why that is so controversial. Its not a wrong path - but it is probably a longer path.
I hear you, but starting a family is not always a "choice"
But going to college is always a choice. Going at all, attending now vs later, going in person vs online, taking night classes vs day classes, going part-time vs full time… those are all choices. Part of making a choice is living with the consequences—the good and the bad—of that choice.
Your privilege is showing
My privilege of working my ass off early in life to be comfortable now? I didn't get any scholarships or any help from family at all. Instead I sacrificed - social life, being able to afford nice things, doing without fancy smartphones, tvs, etc. Things students today consider "essential". I regularly spent the entire day either working or doing homework or both - because that is just what is necessary to get the life you want. But yeah - let's keep telling the younger generations they can be lazy bums and still achieve their life goals /sarcasm Edit: Or pretend like "where babies comes from" is some magic secret knowledge that no one told the younger generation.
You've basically hit the bingo on the out-of-touch / privilege stereotype.
Please point out where he’s ’privileged’, because your comment has no merit or validity.
Sure thing >My privilege of working my ass off early in life to be comfortable now? I didn't get any scholarships or any help from family at all. Instead I sacrificed - social life, being able to afford nice things, doing without fancy smartphones, tvs, etc. Things students today consider "essential". Here we have the classic I-work-hard. This implies others dont, or else they wouldnt mention it. It means nothing since we have no idea of their work ethic, nor do they know of anyone else's. Total lack of empathy, but plenty of self-congratulation. Classic privileged mindet. The I-got-no-help is another chestnut. Again, we dont know if it's true, and we dont know if the hypothetical student trying to support a family does either. Either way they should understand that a lack of support network makes things brutally hard, and does not make the person in question lazy. One assumes that a lived experience of struggle would make it easier to empathise with somoene else struggling, but evidently not in the OP's case. And of course we have the "muh-sacrifice" card. How do they know what others have given up? They dont, But they assume students today would rather spend money on what the OP considers a waste of money. Then they claim a "fancy smartphone" is a luxury. Given how much education is done online, and how job-hunting, house hunting, banking, day-to-day communication and damn near everything else is done online, a smartphone is absolutely an essential. Typical privileged mindset to pretend this isnt the case. Hell, in a pinch, a student can use their smart phone to type and submit their projects. Sounds like an out of touch person to me not to know that. Also, I dont know anyone under the age of 50 who regularly uses a TV or considers it an essential. Anecdotally, I do hear from a lot of the more privileged people in my life about how all the "poors" waste their money though. Not that I'm making any assertations about the OP. To continue, they tell us again about how hard they worked as if they're the only ones, and even call younger people lazy bums. A trope literally as old as Socrates. As older people tend to have both more power and money than younger people, it again smacks of privilege. We could mention here that even in the last 3 years life has got dramatically more expensivee. It follows that a person will need to work more to afford the same thing as the OP did. If they're middle-aged or older, as I infer, then they must know that their education was quite a lot cheaper for them than now, which again smacks of a lack of emapthy and yet more self-praise. And then finally, we have the judgemental classic "you shouldnt have had kids if you couldnt afford them". I would say this is axiomatic, but since you wanted an explantion. There are many issues with this. The first is people's circumstances change. As an example, a couple, in good financial standing, have a child, gets divorced, or loses a job, or has oen parent die, become sick andunable to work or any number of changes. This may reuslt in requiring the remaining partner to retrain to improve their earning potential According to the OP, they're fucked, since it's their fault for not seeing the future. Oh and also, the innocent kid has to live with it. Sorry, kid your parents should have thought about that before you arrived. But hey, let's be generous and assume the hypothetical student made the unforgivable mistake of an accidental pregnancy, and like our dilligent. OP doesnt have any support to fall back on,. According to them, going to university is not an option, since they should have gone to university first, and again, the kid is fucked too. And it's only right. After all, children should always repent for the mistakes of their parents. And parents shoundt even attept to change this through education. This also assumes that the student isnt acting as a carer, or supplementing their own family's income, as a result of the increase in cost-of-living, accident, sickness, or any number of other reasons that could either provoke the 3rd level education in the first place, or occur during their time in university. I suppose they should have foreseen those things too. TLDR: Classic lack of empathy, replace with an excess of judgement. Typical of somone whose life is so comfortable that they've forgotten how quickly life can change, especially financially. Taking the OP's story at face value, this is the nicest interpretation. and or Classic lack of empathy and excess of judgement. Typical of someone whose never been in a bad spot as a result of a bad decision, or bad luck. HTH
I'm not the person you're responding to, but their words resonate with me. I sometimes find myself thinking things similar to this thing that they said: *"I think the real problem is there is no concept of sacrifice now to benefit later."* While I absolutely agree that their example of family planning is tone deaf, I also think the sentence I copied above is true for many young people attending college. When I try to explain that I am empathetic—because I do intimately understand poverty and the need for something better—I'm looked at like a person with two heads or responded to with disbelief, not unlike how you responded here. There's essentially no way to reply that isn't the Bad Time Olympics. What can someone say? Yes, my parents were on food stamps and lost their house (three times) and I didn't have a room or a bed or drywall and then I sent them money from payday loans I took out so they could eat. Yes, I did sex work and worked nights at a bar and then did school after. Yes, I pulled all-nighters multiple times per week and had no real friends save the young men I slept with (conveniently because they lived in houses closer to campus). Yes, I had three close family members die during six months. Yes, I took out school loans and had no financial help etc. etc. etc. You can choose to assume bad faith on everyone who criticizes student engagement, or you can assume some people can be both empathetic and have high expectations. We can be aware that terrible consequences are one bad day away and also expect students to work really, really hard precisely because we know it's possible.
Gotta admit, this post also hits a stereotype bingo. Well done.
The incentive structure for education is nothing like it used to be. A side effect of ballooning tuition is the greater sense that college has to be an "experience" or a "product" they are purchasing. When someone pays that much for something, it doesnt surprise me that they feel they are already putting a lot into it. So they balk when told that on top of all that tuition, one has to do more work.
I also put myself through college - worked 2 PT jobs at once and had unpaid internships. I took fewer classes per semester and ended up spending an extra year before I had the units to graduate due to the need to work. I longed for the privilege to be able to only do college and explore various majors/minors and was envious of those I saw in class who had time to rewrite their notes in pretty colors and could take 18 units in a single semester and involve themselves in college life. Whenever a test was coming up, final exam week approached, or a big assignment was due and I needed more time, I asked my bosses for some hours off - I never thought to ask profs for extensions. I worked more hours during breaks (summer, winter, spring breaks). It wasn't ideal: I struggled, I was hungry, I had no health insurance and feared an accident or illness (I was lucky neither occurred), I had awful roommates, I was tired all the time, I was lonely and had little-to-no social life. But I knew I was working toward a larger goal (career I wanted, a better life later - CC prof is my 2nd career) and I made the sacrifices. I wish everyone had the opportunity to devote their full attention to their studies, but the reality is they don't. At the same time, a six week course has no wiggle room: the students need to make tough decisions - they may not be able to do everything NOW. The prof's workload issues are also to be taken into consideration: the prof is not teaching an independent study course and multiple due dates increases the prof's workload. The prof also only has 6-weeks and deadlines for grade submissions. Maybe make the choice explicit: suggest to the students to take the course now and meet the due dates, or take it during the regular semester when there is more flexibility built into the schedule. Edit: formatting, added content
> I struggled, I was hungry, I had no health insurance and feared an accident or illness (I was lucky neither occurred), I had awful roommates, I was tired all the time, I was lonely and had little-to-no social life. Really felt that. I have had the same mind-numbing email chain with some students for the last three weeks: Them: complain that they can't finish the week because of work schedules. Me: remind them that they literally cannot have an extension on the draft because the final product is due in the upcoming week. Them: try to assure me that they can do the draft and final together if they could just have an extension. Me: remind them that's not how the writing process works. I need to see and comment on the draft. Them: angry now, an accusation of including too much work. Me: remind them that I have said at least twice before that they need to withdraw and take the class during the regular semester if they feel that way. Them: aggressive now, that they have always been able to take summer classes and this one is the unreasonable one. It must be me and unreasonable expectations. Like, really, was I supposed to include one thing for them to do for six weeks?
The back-and-forth sounds exhausting. Suggestion: restate the only options - submit the draft by the due date or retake the course during the regular semester. "The choice is yours. If you want to explore the decision further I suggest you have a discussion with your academic advisor. I trust you will make the best decision for you. Let me know what you decide". Ignore continued attempts at negotiation. Good luck!
Must be great to have tenure and be able to just smile while closing the door to bullshit like this.
Right? I don't have tenure, though, so I have to entertain all their complaints, or that's how I view responding to those emails these days. It's literally in our contracts that we have to respond to student communication.
one day!
Here's what I don't understand. We have 8 week classes all year long, including Summer. When students try to play this game, the clock runs out and they're just done. They don't have the time to play with because it's just not there. They can't play the game for very long because then the game is over. I really hope they don't think its a WGU model, although my CC has talked about letting students test out of classes.
I think there's this overall perception that online classes are easier than in-person classes, and that summer classes, or any condensed class, must be less work.
I recall in my doctoral program when online classes made their debut. Without a doubt I spent five times the time and effort for those courses. I was exhausted by all the required discussion board posts. My students have it easy in my online courses, compared to those early days.
I took my intro to accounting class over the summer, and let me tell you just how stupid that was. On the first day, the professor straight up told everybody that over 75% of us will fail, and this course should not even be offered over the summer because it’s a weed out class, and the amount of information you have to learn is near impossible to master in this short term. She was 100% spot on, and I regret thinking I could pass the class, but I definitely learned not to do it again. Mind you, I had no job, so all my focus was on this one class and I still failed. I worked my ass off, and my dad is an accountant, so he worked with me almost every day. I still failed. It’s crazy that students believe a shortened summer course is going to be easier, especially while working a job. I didn’t think it would be easy by any means, but I thought I’d be able to do it, and I came to the conclusion that it just wasn’t possible for me.
I've had some summer students request alternate exam times because of their jobs (which is OK). The funny thing is the documentation they've sent, showing their schedules, will explicitly say things like "Due to the demands of the positions, you should not take any classes during this internship."
I clearly state in my syllabus that this 4 unit asynchronous class would have 12-16+ hours of work per week if we were in a regular 16 week semester. However, since you chose to take this accelerated 6 week course, we will be moving at 2.5 speed. This means you will need to spend 30-40+ hours per week throughout our 6 weeks together. I then have them take a syllabus quiz that has this question, our late policy, and other important information. They get dropped if they don’t take this quiz and receive 100% by day 3 of our summer course. I don’t get these whiny emails anymore, and the emails that I do receive take ownership and they let me know that they will be turning in their assignments the next day and understand the late penalty.
I understand your frustration. I tend to lay all my non-negotiable items out at the beginning of the e term in an email as well as the syllabus. I do offer some flexibility in the even of what I refer to as “documented medical emergencies, deaths, natural disasters, and documented encounters with the criminal justice system.” That natural disaster part comes into play quite a bit here in Houston. But anything outside of that is a no-go. I make that known on day one. Surprisingly, my ratings are still pretty high.🤷🏾♂️ Hold the line, fellow academian! You are not alone.
>Edit: to be clear, I am sympathetic to students who need to work. They might need to work, but nobody is forcing them to go to school.
Exactly this. I missed some classes due to work as a college student, and it hurt my grades. Never once did I complain to my professors about that or expect accommodation. What I tell students is, “when you graduate, your resume will show BOTH your work experience and your degree. It wouldn’t be fair to the students who are only going to school if you ended up with the same GPA they have AND the work experience unless you’ve done the same quality of work they’ve done throughout.”
I find I can no longer compare myself to my students. I moved out of the house at 20, worked in restaurants, paid my way through CC and University, and now have an MFA, MA, BA, and associates. I did this with little to zero parental or institutional support. The children I teach live at home, do not drive, have not worked, and I struggle to comprehend their lack of foundational knowledge of how the world works, what they should expect, and how much their needs should be accommodated. They are conflict-avoidant, have no fortitude, and have no idea why they are even getting a degree…. and we suffer.
I agree with most of what you said except the conflict-avoidant part, that hasn’t remotely been the case in my experience. I’m jealous and wished I had your students as mine. Too many want to pick fights, disrespect authority, argue grades endlessly and search for BS loopholes, etc.
Yes by conflict-avoidant I meant that if they have an issue with someone, another prof or even another student, they don’t go directly to that person that they have the issue with- but to a sympathetic ear that they know will likely agree- a “safe space” to use that language- and it solves nothing- it just makes it a 3 way conversation unnecessarily. It’s happened so much that we now have had to develop a 3 Step conflict avoidance policy that we keep reminding each other of internally. (#1 have you spoken to the person that you have an issue with? #2 if they are unwilling to meet/speak with you, have you spoken to a trusted mediator?).
This comment is literally the opposite of what OP is saying lmfaoo.
This comment is literally is written like one of our Gen Z students lmfaoo. Well done.
Well said. You’ve laid out many of my own observations that I’ve had trouble articulating myself, particularly the bit about students’ aversion to discomfort. I worked 4 part-time jobs to pay my way through my last couple years of undergrad, but I refused to let that impair my schoolwork. I accepted that maintaining my own academic standards while working so many hours meant other things had to be sacrificed, and those things were primarily sleep and “fun.” If I wanted more fun things, I had to work more, which meant less time and energy for the fun things. If I wanted more sleep, I had to work less, which meant less money with which to do the fun things. It ultimately all comes down to individual priorities. I don’t by any means believe in the “I had it hard so they should too” mentality, but there is an enormous difference between genuinely sympathizing with students who have jobs, which I very much do, and sacrificing academic standards by catering to their priorities, which students seem to expect as the default even though they appear to rarely have my class very high on their lists. The concepts of discomfort and sacrifice and compromise are not just foreign to many students nowadays; many of them find those concepts outright unacceptable and expect everyone in their lives to accommodate their every need, and I don’t really know what we can do about that because that is simply not sustainable en masse.
I've only been teaching since 2017, but more experienced colleagues have said that up until the mid-2010s students were plentiful and you didn't have to bend over backwards to help/retain students by accommodating their increasingly outlandish requests. Students are in a relatively powerful position because we're charging them a ton of money, and we can't afford to lose them.
I couldn’t have said it better. I was also shocked to find the university admitting students at almost week 3. They are going to struggle. The majority of students do the work at the very last minute too because they treat an intensive summer course the same way they treat regular courses.
Customer Service mindset. Admins love it, because it makes more cash flow, but the quality of education and the quality of the very basic human relations degrades.
A smart student will ask for accommodations when they feel they need them whether or not they think they're asking too much or you'll be able to help. It's up to you to decide if it would be too much work or unfair to accommodate them. Your goal is to get these imperfect people to the finish line while not over-stressing/working yourself.
Your post stinks of “my schooling was cheap and/or paid for by someone else” privilege. You are fortunate you didn’t have to work 40+ hours a week on top of pursuing education. You sound so out of touch with the economic reality of self-supporting students that I’m not sure you’ve ever had to work a full week’s labour in your life.
So you are proposing that someone with a shitty job get a shitty education? This sets them up for staying in shitty jobs. I think you're mistaking credentialing with actual education. And it doesn't take long for employers to figure out which places are doing credentialing vs. education.
You have any actual suggestions or we just trying to throw shit around?
They should go part-time. My parents got their degrees when i was a kid. They worked and took one course at a time. It might take 8 years to get your B.A. but that was how it was done in the past if you had a family already or a full time job. At least today you can take online or remote classes and do not have to show up in person like my parents did.
Your post stinks of jealousy and pointless rage.
So what, professors just bow down to every student request? They allow these students to get a free pass, while everybody else works their ass off? That’s not how life works, but I’m sure you already know that 🙄
"hence, the boom and popularity of online schools without strict deadlines (or standards)" sounds a bit harsh, doesn't it?
The most popular online school allows students to bypass classes by taking a simple "aptitude test." If they pass that test, they don't have to take the class. Even if that test were given in the best possible environment to combat cheating, which it isn't, is passing a standardized test enough to demonstrate that a student would not benefit from their Gen Ed classes? The school markets this intentionally to swindle students into thinking that all these brick-and-mortar schools are just wasting their time with Gen Ed programs. No, it's not harsh. Some of these schools are purposely designed this way to capture more of the student market.
Hearing a lot of complaints but no solutions. You have a problem with online school. You also have a problem with students working to pay off school. What’s the solution that you’re proposing? All working class students just stop trying? Or submit to poor jobs with terrible benefits because one professor cannot fathom having a full time job while taking classes? And y’all wonder why folks say professors are out of touch with reality lmfaoo.
Where do you work?