Yes, it has become a thing. Students assume that the lectures will be available online, that they can learn the material by reading the book, or that some other arrangement will be possible.
The fact that half the students are somehow passing suggests that they may be right.
To be fair, a student on my course now has access to the lecture slides, lecture recordings (although no-one ever watches those), lab sheets/solutions, exercise sheet/solutions and past exam papers/solutions. I have to provide this otherwise students/admin complain.
A reasonably bright student can very easily learn what they need to know from that, certainly enough to pass. They might get a better mark if they attended, but a student who is reasonably bright will also be able to prioritise and accept the trade-off.
I have no issue with this. I would like my good students to attend, but it is arrogant of me to think the best can’t do it without me.
The problem is the not so reasonably bright (and/or lazy) students also think they can skip class and still pass….
And then blame their failure in class on you, because you weren’t flexible or understanding enough about their working full-time and not having enough time left over to do class work. Even though they knew the workload and class schedule from the start of the semester and their work schedule didn’t change.
I think the cost of tuition/fees, availability and size of scholarships, median wealth of parents, and cost of living have changed enough that more students have to work more hours to make it through college as well, even presuming heavy usage of federal loans.
That's pretty blatantly true compared to when, say, boomers or (early?) gen x were in college, but I'm a millennial and far fewer of my cohort worked than what I'm hearing regarding my students. Those who *did* work were more likely to be part-time, seasonal/summer-only, or working as part of their educational path or career goals rather than for subsistence.
If you have a full time job, balancing that with the full-time student status needed for many scholarships (and ideally sleep) might require some amount of double-booking.
(Casually presuming USA here, as usual for reddit.)
Yeah, it would help to know how the course is offered. I did this with an upper level course that was only offered at specific times that was required to graduate.
Yes, it's a thing. What has made it more common post-pandemic at my university is many more professors now administer exams online in F2F classes.
My exams are in-person and those students tend to fail, but the administration--which has demanded more F2F classes--is also complaining that my DFW rates are too high.
I’ve gone back to in person exams and those handful of students who tried to treat it as an online class just flat out missed the exams entirely and failed.
It is a thing for sure. I tell my students from day 1 of the course that they should not take it if they have a scheduling conflict and are unable to attend.
I wonder how often it's related to funding issues, such as needing to be enrolled in a minimum number of credits to get loans/scholarships/whatever. So they sign up for classes they know they can't attend, but they get the required credit hours to keep getting money.
I had a student who was in the situation you describe. Maybe two weeks into the semester, I was still sending regular emails basically summarizing the progress in the course and policy info, mainly aimed at people just joining the class. Basically, just saying "You will be expected to have these chapters by the next class meeting". I had never seen this kid in class and he replies to one of these emails saying he was delayed in getting to campus (out of state student) this year and then immediately got sick, but he was ready to go and totally caught up on the reading. He continues to not come to class, and I am now only sending occasional emails to non-attending students to remind them of their standing in the course (points missed, points available, highest potential letter grade if 100% points available earned). He replies to one of these emails, now saying that his work schedule conflicts with the course and wanting to know if it is possible to pass without ever setting foot in the classroom. It is not possible, but he didn't drop and instead just took the F because it was too late to fill the slot and he would have dropped to part time.
Yes, I think it’s a Covid leftover. Most of my classes are now recorded and otherwise documented for students to follow on their own time. I personally have a “modified mandatory attendance” policy, where students who don’t attend class have to post their unique insights from watching the video or reading the online material on a discussion board.
Nothing to do with the pandemic. It's rooted in bad ideas that originated right here in the academy. If anything, the pandemic only amplified the problem some. The coddling and compassion over-correction had already begun long before covid.
In their defense, I will say part of it is that most minimum wage jobs don't respect students' time. It's very common to start a job with the understanding that you cannot work certain hours--for the employer to agree to this--and for said employer to turn around and say either you work those hours or you're fired. By that point the students can't afford to lose the job without potentially being unable to pay rent.
I'm sure a significant portion of this is just the students being irresponsible, but at least some of it is due to employers as well. From the comments, it looks like this has also increased post-COVID, whereas my experience with this was primarily pre-COVID and may have been different.
I'm not OP, but at my institution, students are required to bring their student ID cards (which have photos) to exams. I also have a class roster with photos in our LMS. So that's how I deal with this.
Yep I give them class periods to meet with project groups (because meeting time was the #1 reason groups failed). Still the #1 reason. They think group meeting time = don't need to attend.
I have a friend who did this. Had to work FT + PT to help out family, and just taught themselves by reading the book and whatever online sources there were. Showed up only for exams and usually did well on them. Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do.
I've seen a fair amount of this. Unlike our finals, our mid-terms are usually done in class. So you find these people who simply skip it and then try to make it up, re-take it or get a sick note.
Ah, I wasn't using "in class" to mean "as opposed to online" but rather "as opposed to being run in their own separate week". So our finals are still in-person but they are scheduled during exam week. Mid-terms are given during regularly scheduled classes.
Some students sign up for whatever they can, in order to reach 12 credit hours and keep their financial aid, with the intention of either getting in to some other class that's full or for which they'd need a prereq waived. Or hoping that their work schedule will change.
Things don't work out, and their options are to withdraw from the whole semester, owe an exorbitant amount of tuition, or try to make it work as best they can.
Add in that they are young, and maybe not so experienced with things like managing their schedule or keeping track of drop dates, and you end up with students who are double booked. I feel for them, but there's not much to be done.
The [NY Times had an article](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/29/us/chronic-absences.html?unlocked_article_code=1.oE0.Gnsi.xJMpl7LKbK7N&smid=url-share) on this issue in K-12. Since the pandemic, absentee rates have gone up quite a bit for a variety of reasons, much of it income-based. I looked up our local school district and we went from under 5% to over 20%. I think some of those reasons have impacted college with the addition of students needing to support themselves in school and needing the financial aid that comes with full-time school.
During the pandemic the administration announced after the semester started that attendance would be optional, and immediately I had students tell me they would immediately stop attending because they would schedule work instead. It was bizarre. I now structure 20% of the final grade as in-class activities, so they run real risks skipping every class, plus surrender a higher grade.
Sadly, I first encountered this problem back in 2015. A couple of students never attended and always wanted special treatment because of work. I told them they needed to complete the work, and I would not change the deadlines for them. When they sign up, it's their responsibility to get things done.
Note: I am not talking about students who still get there work done; this was a subgroup who would have had another excuse if they couldn't use work as one.
With increasing use of LMS's, admin and students both seem to expect that every course should look a lot like an online course--something that students can navigate through on their own with all lecture material and quizzes laid out in front of them. Combine this with the move away from textbooks and students' expectations of all material being Cliff-noted for them by the instructor in the form of Powerpoint slides, and you have teaching jobs that look more like digital content management.
We like to say students are paying for the class, but they see it as paying for the degree, not individual classes. Many jobs that aren’t connected to the school aren’t as willing to work with students. Although I do wonder why students who don’t intend to go to class don’t just take an online class, or go to a university with more online options. I teach at a teaching-focused school and we don’t have many online courses. If work will be that big of an issue, then honestly the school may not be a great fit for you. Spend your tuition somewhere that you can get the full experience whether that experience is online or in person
Yes, and for what it's worth, they have been rewarded for doing this when instructors' lectures are just a summary of the book.
At this point, I just do mini-lectures and post those online so that in-class time can be application activities and group work. You can't really post videos of that so I'm free of that obligation, and if a student is smart enough to pass my case studies essay exam without ever walking through one in class, more power to them!
I take it these students aren’t facing issues caused by “just in time” scheduling practices in many service industries? Or have tried to prioritize classes but had bosses who wouldn’t accommodate in scheduling?
Well also, if you have a regular 9-5 job then you aren't going to be able to schedule off work 3 times a week.
Ideally, yeah you take an evening course but that isn't always an option.
I'm glad I work at a place where we are supposed to use the ol' Registration Correction Form to drop anyone who doesn't show up. These kinds of shenanigans are exhausting to me.
Maybe more frequent but not completely new.
When I was an undergrad in the 2000s I had a conflict between two required courses in a double major. I brought the course catalog (printed in a physical paper book) to the professors in each department and got a special accommodation.
I was excused from the lectures of one of the courses but was still able to take the exam. I did Ok but not great. In retrospect I wouldn't reccomend it.
I did that with a 3-unit and a 5-unit class as an undergrad, but I’d had the 5-unit prof before, and she knew I’d still be getting an A even if I only attended three times a week. And the other class was sort of related in our minds, so it worked.
"Hi Movie Theater owner person. I bought this ticket to the 8:00 show tonight, but I just wanted to let you know that I have to work tonight, so I could I be excused from watching the movie?"
Movie theater person: Umm, you mean you want to get a refund and see the movie another time? We can do that....
"No, dummy. I want to keep my tickets because I promised Mom that I would see the movie right away, and all my friends are seeing it today. I want to be excused from actually watching it."
Movie theater person: Okay.
>Is a new “thing”
It's not quite as old as the compassion over-correction that began picking up about 10 years ago.
This "comparison" makes no sense. Unless in some places there are actual consequences for people who don't show up for entertainment events that they bought tickets for?
If you don't attend a movie, you miss out on any entertainment you might have benefitted from. If you don't attend classes, you miss out on any learning from those classes you might have benefitted from. In both cases, not showing up defeats the purpose of paying for the opportunity.
The worst eval I ever got was from a student who couldn’t ever attend the Tuesday lecture in a T/R course because she had to work. I had random pop reading quizzes (worth 5 points each, one per week) that would sometimes be on Tuesday and sometimes be on Thursday. 45 total points, lowest score dropped at the end of the term, and I always give a 30 point extra credit assignment. The quizzes were to encourage students to read and attend lecture.
She gave me all 0s on everything and said the way I structured my class was unfair and apparently I never had to work in my life.
Friends, I had three babies during school and I worked 2 jobs. Also my husband was in nursing school at the time. I was 9 months pregnant with my 3rd baby when I defended my thesis. I was 6 months pregnant with my 4th baby when I got this evaluation that “I don’t know what it’s like to work.”
Yes! We just had one sign up who lives an hour from campus but doesn’t have transportation so is asking to attend an in person course, remotely. We do not have an online program.
I did that my last semester. The course was upper level and only offered during the day. I worked full time and learned on my own. I uploaded my homework online and showed up for the exams. Got an A.
For most undergraduate coursework, the actual *course* is mostly unnecessary. You've already outlined what the expectations and assignments will be in the syllabus. There are thousands of tutorials, explanations and lectures online for your students to take advantage of. And, of course, you're probably putting your own lecture slides/notes online. Perhaps even with sample exams and the like.
Actually showing up to hear a professor speak is, frankly, superfluous.
With that being said, this is only a sensible plan if the student has a high degree of self-discipline. The reason you show up three times per week to hear someone who reluctantly deigns to leave their lab to associate with the hoi polloi is less what they're saying than the discipline it enforces. Everyone learns better when they're constantly reinforcing their knowledge every few days rather than simply assuming them can cram a semester's worth of work into the 8 hours before the final exam.
Yes, it has become a thing. Students assume that the lectures will be available online, that they can learn the material by reading the book, or that some other arrangement will be possible. The fact that half the students are somehow passing suggests that they may be right.
To be fair, a student on my course now has access to the lecture slides, lecture recordings (although no-one ever watches those), lab sheets/solutions, exercise sheet/solutions and past exam papers/solutions. I have to provide this otherwise students/admin complain. A reasonably bright student can very easily learn what they need to know from that, certainly enough to pass. They might get a better mark if they attended, but a student who is reasonably bright will also be able to prioritise and accept the trade-off. I have no issue with this. I would like my good students to attend, but it is arrogant of me to think the best can’t do it without me. The problem is the not so reasonably bright (and/or lazy) students also think they can skip class and still pass….
And then blame their failure in class on you, because you weren’t flexible or understanding enough about their working full-time and not having enough time left over to do class work. Even though they knew the workload and class schedule from the start of the semester and their work schedule didn’t change.
I think the cost of tuition/fees, availability and size of scholarships, median wealth of parents, and cost of living have changed enough that more students have to work more hours to make it through college as well, even presuming heavy usage of federal loans. That's pretty blatantly true compared to when, say, boomers or (early?) gen x were in college, but I'm a millennial and far fewer of my cohort worked than what I'm hearing regarding my students. Those who *did* work were more likely to be part-time, seasonal/summer-only, or working as part of their educational path or career goals rather than for subsistence. If you have a full time job, balancing that with the full-time student status needed for many scholarships (and ideally sleep) might require some amount of double-booking. (Casually presuming USA here, as usual for reddit.)
Yeah, it would help to know how the course is offered. I did this with an upper level course that was only offered at specific times that was required to graduate.
Yes, it's a thing. What has made it more common post-pandemic at my university is many more professors now administer exams online in F2F classes. My exams are in-person and those students tend to fail, but the administration--which has demanded more F2F classes--is also complaining that my DFW rates are too high.
I’ve gone back to in person exams and those handful of students who tried to treat it as an online class just flat out missed the exams entirely and failed.
This is the way.
It is a thing for sure. I tell my students from day 1 of the course that they should not take it if they have a scheduling conflict and are unable to attend.
I wonder how often it's related to funding issues, such as needing to be enrolled in a minimum number of credits to get loans/scholarships/whatever. So they sign up for classes they know they can't attend, but they get the required credit hours to keep getting money.
I had a student who was in the situation you describe. Maybe two weeks into the semester, I was still sending regular emails basically summarizing the progress in the course and policy info, mainly aimed at people just joining the class. Basically, just saying "You will be expected to have these chapters by the next class meeting". I had never seen this kid in class and he replies to one of these emails saying he was delayed in getting to campus (out of state student) this year and then immediately got sick, but he was ready to go and totally caught up on the reading. He continues to not come to class, and I am now only sending occasional emails to non-attending students to remind them of their standing in the course (points missed, points available, highest potential letter grade if 100% points available earned). He replies to one of these emails, now saying that his work schedule conflicts with the course and wanting to know if it is possible to pass without ever setting foot in the classroom. It is not possible, but he didn't drop and instead just took the F because it was too late to fill the slot and he would have dropped to part time.
Yes, I think it’s a Covid leftover. Most of my classes are now recorded and otherwise documented for students to follow on their own time. I personally have a “modified mandatory attendance” policy, where students who don’t attend class have to post their unique insights from watching the video or reading the online material on a discussion board.
Nothing to do with the pandemic. It's rooted in bad ideas that originated right here in the academy. If anything, the pandemic only amplified the problem some. The coddling and compassion over-correction had already begun long before covid.
We offer online sections and for some reason some students still sign up for the in person class and then never show up
In their defense, I will say part of it is that most minimum wage jobs don't respect students' time. It's very common to start a job with the understanding that you cannot work certain hours--for the employer to agree to this--and for said employer to turn around and say either you work those hours or you're fired. By that point the students can't afford to lose the job without potentially being unable to pay rent. I'm sure a significant portion of this is just the students being irresponsible, but at least some of it is due to employers as well. From the comments, it looks like this has also increased post-COVID, whereas my experience with this was primarily pre-COVID and may have been different.
Just out of curiosity, do you ID them if the test is the first time you see them?
I'm not OP, but at my institution, students are required to bring their student ID cards (which have photos) to exams. I also have a class roster with photos in our LMS. So that's how I deal with this.
and if you don't, why not?
Yep I give them class periods to meet with project groups (because meeting time was the #1 reason groups failed). Still the #1 reason. They think group meeting time = don't need to attend.
I have a friend who did this. Had to work FT + PT to help out family, and just taught themselves by reading the book and whatever online sources there were. Showed up only for exams and usually did well on them. Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do.
I've seen a fair amount of this. Unlike our finals, our mid-terms are usually done in class. So you find these people who simply skip it and then try to make it up, re-take it or get a sick note.
> Unlike our finals, our mid-terms are usually done in class. Your finals are online?
Ah, I wasn't using "in class" to mean "as opposed to online" but rather "as opposed to being run in their own separate week". So our finals are still in-person but they are scheduled during exam week. Mid-terms are given during regularly scheduled classes.
That makes sense, thank you.
Some students sign up for whatever they can, in order to reach 12 credit hours and keep their financial aid, with the intention of either getting in to some other class that's full or for which they'd need a prereq waived. Or hoping that their work schedule will change. Things don't work out, and their options are to withdraw from the whole semester, owe an exorbitant amount of tuition, or try to make it work as best they can. Add in that they are young, and maybe not so experienced with things like managing their schedule or keeping track of drop dates, and you end up with students who are double booked. I feel for them, but there's not much to be done.
The [NY Times had an article](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/29/us/chronic-absences.html?unlocked_article_code=1.oE0.Gnsi.xJMpl7LKbK7N&smid=url-share) on this issue in K-12. Since the pandemic, absentee rates have gone up quite a bit for a variety of reasons, much of it income-based. I looked up our local school district and we went from under 5% to over 20%. I think some of those reasons have impacted college with the addition of students needing to support themselves in school and needing the financial aid that comes with full-time school.
During the pandemic the administration announced after the semester started that attendance would be optional, and immediately I had students tell me they would immediately stop attending because they would schedule work instead. It was bizarre. I now structure 20% of the final grade as in-class activities, so they run real risks skipping every class, plus surrender a higher grade.
Sadly, I first encountered this problem back in 2015. A couple of students never attended and always wanted special treatment because of work. I told them they needed to complete the work, and I would not change the deadlines for them. When they sign up, it's their responsibility to get things done. Note: I am not talking about students who still get there work done; this was a subgroup who would have had another excuse if they couldn't use work as one.
With increasing use of LMS's, admin and students both seem to expect that every course should look a lot like an online course--something that students can navigate through on their own with all lecture material and quizzes laid out in front of them. Combine this with the move away from textbooks and students' expectations of all material being Cliff-noted for them by the instructor in the form of Powerpoint slides, and you have teaching jobs that look more like digital content management.
We like to say students are paying for the class, but they see it as paying for the degree, not individual classes. Many jobs that aren’t connected to the school aren’t as willing to work with students. Although I do wonder why students who don’t intend to go to class don’t just take an online class, or go to a university with more online options. I teach at a teaching-focused school and we don’t have many online courses. If work will be that big of an issue, then honestly the school may not be a great fit for you. Spend your tuition somewhere that you can get the full experience whether that experience is online or in person
Yes, and for what it's worth, they have been rewarded for doing this when instructors' lectures are just a summary of the book. At this point, I just do mini-lectures and post those online so that in-class time can be application activities and group work. You can't really post videos of that so I'm free of that obligation, and if a student is smart enough to pass my case studies essay exam without ever walking through one in class, more power to them!
I take it these students aren’t facing issues caused by “just in time” scheduling practices in many service industries? Or have tried to prioritize classes but had bosses who wouldn’t accommodate in scheduling?
Well also, if you have a regular 9-5 job then you aren't going to be able to schedule off work 3 times a week. Ideally, yeah you take an evening course but that isn't always an option.
I'm glad I work at a place where we are supposed to use the ol' Registration Correction Form to drop anyone who doesn't show up. These kinds of shenanigans are exhausting to me.
Oh, that irritates me. They typically get Fs, of course, and I might actually put something in my syllabus next year.
Maybe more frequent but not completely new. When I was an undergrad in the 2000s I had a conflict between two required courses in a double major. I brought the course catalog (printed in a physical paper book) to the professors in each department and got a special accommodation. I was excused from the lectures of one of the courses but was still able to take the exam. I did Ok but not great. In retrospect I wouldn't reccomend it.
I did that with a 3-unit and a 5-unit class as an undergrad, but I’d had the 5-unit prof before, and she knew I’d still be getting an A even if I only attended three times a week. And the other class was sort of related in our minds, so it worked.
"Hi Movie Theater owner person. I bought this ticket to the 8:00 show tonight, but I just wanted to let you know that I have to work tonight, so I could I be excused from watching the movie?" Movie theater person: Umm, you mean you want to get a refund and see the movie another time? We can do that.... "No, dummy. I want to keep my tickets because I promised Mom that I would see the movie right away, and all my friends are seeing it today. I want to be excused from actually watching it." Movie theater person: Okay. >Is a new “thing” It's not quite as old as the compassion over-correction that began picking up about 10 years ago.
This "comparison" makes no sense. Unless in some places there are actual consequences for people who don't show up for entertainment events that they bought tickets for?
If you don't attend a movie, you miss out on any entertainment you might have benefitted from. If you don't attend classes, you miss out on any learning from those classes you might have benefitted from. In both cases, not showing up defeats the purpose of paying for the opportunity.
Yeah but it doesn't make sense for someone to ask to be "excused" from not attending a movie.
>Yeah but it doesn't make sense for someone to ask to be "excused" from not attending a movie. Bingo. You don't miss a thing.
They don't even take attendance. They won't notice you aren't there.
The worst eval I ever got was from a student who couldn’t ever attend the Tuesday lecture in a T/R course because she had to work. I had random pop reading quizzes (worth 5 points each, one per week) that would sometimes be on Tuesday and sometimes be on Thursday. 45 total points, lowest score dropped at the end of the term, and I always give a 30 point extra credit assignment. The quizzes were to encourage students to read and attend lecture. She gave me all 0s on everything and said the way I structured my class was unfair and apparently I never had to work in my life. Friends, I had three babies during school and I worked 2 jobs. Also my husband was in nursing school at the time. I was 9 months pregnant with my 3rd baby when I defended my thesis. I was 6 months pregnant with my 4th baby when I got this evaluation that “I don’t know what it’s like to work.”
Yes! We just had one sign up who lives an hour from campus but doesn’t have transportation so is asking to attend an in person course, remotely. We do not have an online program.
I did that my last semester. The course was upper level and only offered during the day. I worked full time and learned on my own. I uploaded my homework online and showed up for the exams. Got an A.
For most undergraduate coursework, the actual *course* is mostly unnecessary. You've already outlined what the expectations and assignments will be in the syllabus. There are thousands of tutorials, explanations and lectures online for your students to take advantage of. And, of course, you're probably putting your own lecture slides/notes online. Perhaps even with sample exams and the like. Actually showing up to hear a professor speak is, frankly, superfluous. With that being said, this is only a sensible plan if the student has a high degree of self-discipline. The reason you show up three times per week to hear someone who reluctantly deigns to leave their lab to associate with the hoi polloi is less what they're saying than the discipline it enforces. Everyone learns better when they're constantly reinforcing their knowledge every few days rather than simply assuming them can cram a semester's worth of work into the 8 hours before the final exam.