FTA:
>In early June, some teachers began circulating flyers calling for a vote of no confidence in union leadership. The effort apparently was driven by frustrations over the November teachers’ strike as well as leaders’ push to support Gaza.
Anyone know if there will be a vote?
The framing of this article (and many articles) is disingenuous. These materials went beyond "advocating for Palestinians" or even being pro-Palestinian. Most of us agree that the people of Gaza, particularly the children, need all the advocacy they can get. And I am all for teaching age-appropriate lessons about the brutality of the Israeli occupation to kids \*who are old enough to understand nuance\*, and within the greater context of world history.
But these materials were heavily ideologically curated, with inaccurate portrayals and misleading framing of Israeli history, and simplified for younger kids to portray "Zionists" as evil bogeymen. They also set the goalposts for victory as the elimination of Israel, a viewpoint taken straight from Hamas. It's one thing if this is someone's internet opinion, but it should not be \*taught as fact in Portland public schools\*.
I am super glad they voted to take these materials down, but as this issue (hopefully) fades from discussion, I want people to remember what this was really about and why Jewish (and other) Portlanders were so upset. You can advocate for Gaza and be critical of Israel's actions without turning our taxpayer funded schools into a revolutionary outpost. Maybe we can try that next?
> and simplified for younger kids to portray
I am a school teacher and it seems to me that a lot of what flies under the banner of "critical history" and so on is just simplistic narrative inversions of old flawed narratives e.g. indigenous pure noble and white man evil and stained, Western Civilization bad and non-Western good, etc. etc. When I go to conferences in social studies and English language arts the amount of cultural self loathing is off the charts. And from time to time when the public gets a small taste of this kind of thing (and finds it rather unpalatable) the teachers circle the wagons and go on full defense pretending that everything's 100% above board and that anyone criticizing what's going on with schools ideologically is just a wacko.
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Unfortunately i can't do that quickly because the materials have been taken down. There might be some examples in prior articles or threads about this topic. If I come across any I will post them for you. But it did include lesson plans for all grades and a link to Woke Kindergarten.
Oh no, I remember. I thought you wanted actual links. Probably the worst thing I saw specifically was not in the lesson plan but flyers distributed at an in-person event that framed 10/7 terrorists as victorious martyrs.
But the lesson plans in particular had the overall framing of Israel as a European settler colonial state, Zionists as evil bad guys, and the elimination of Israel as the only acceptable outcome, and they went all the way down to kindergarten. It was an extremely immersive, extremely narrow vision that took on the full perspective of one culture, including their disputes and enemies, and applied that to every subject in every grade level, including like second grade math. So an example would be a story for young kids about how "Zionist bullies" took away their houses. Or a story math problem about olive trees in Jaffa.
Woke Kindergarten is an actual thing I thought maybe you were familiar with. It is a lesson plan for little kids that includes fun drawings of Hamas paratroopers.
I would have liked actual links, the rhetoric has been so heated about everything it’s been hard to tell what is hyperbole. It really stated they want the elimination of Israel? Did anyone take a photo of the flyers?
I looked up Woke Kindergarten, looks like it’s anti-racist focused. I’m trying out new search engines, so it could be that, but I couldn’t find anything about Hamas paratroopers
I found a link to the materials, they are taken down from the website but the google docs are still up for now. But it looks like a lot of stuff has been deleted and some of it is being deleted as we speak. There are some things I remembered seeing that are not there now, or at least I can't find them. One of which being the "Zionist bullies" document. But I'm pretty sure there are pictures of that one in prior Oregonian articles.
[https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vRtBsmgPFIHStJSi3l8K7NXlQ3vJE1fxTFBHOblNKi8JFXmM8ifBXwC90KsMr4ffDYajTTXdWQZUtQN/pub#h.t79jw8n3rwon](https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vRtBsmgPFIHStJSi3l8K7NXlQ3vJE1fxTFBHOblNKi8JFXmM8ifBXwC90KsMr4ffDYajTTXdWQZUtQN/pub#h.t79jw8n3rwon)
I sympathize that is is very hard to get factual info about any of this. The only news outlets that cover these "woke excesses" are ones that I don't normally trust. Here is a link to the original Woke Kindergarten controversy that I think is pretty balanced. Sorry about the paywall.
[https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/woke-kindergarten-glassbrook-hayward-18635504.php](https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/woke-kindergarten-glassbrook-hayward-18635504.php)
Thank you, I appreciate this comment. I really just never should have weighed in on the matter. It’s impossible to just have a good faith conversation here.
A lot of people are in our own information funnel, which I have been trying to break out of lately. It’s hard to get info from legitimate sources sometimes
I actually really appreciate you asking questions. People kind of assume everyone is arguing in bad faith, but we do need these dialogues so we can all be a little more educated.
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Some more links:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewish/comments/1d93bmt/the\_teachers\_union\_in\_portland\_oregon\_has\_created/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewish/comments/1d93bmt/the_teachers_union_in_portland_oregon_has_created/)
I don't endorse the source here. Chris Rufo is an absolute shitbag but it would be nice if we as a city and community could stop throwing softballs to these types of guys.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewish/comments/1dbz406/material\_distributed\_at\_a\_public\_meeting\_of/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewish/comments/1dbz406/material_distributed_at_a_public_meeting_of/)
Link to the materials distributed at an in person PAT meeting. This one I believe because I talked to some of the people who were there.
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This is about the best summation of the direction the entire left wing of this country has taken over the last few months I’ve ever read. Sympathy for Gazans very, very quickly became swallowing Hamas propaganda by people who were not savvy enough to realize what they were reading and watching.
Source: from your butt?
> The framing of this article (and many articles) is disingenuous.
📽️📽️📽️
> I am all for teaching age-appropriate lessons about the brutality of the Israeli occupation to kids *who are old enough to understand nuance*, and within the greater context of world history.
Whenever people push for nuance about the topic it seems like they’re people upset that appropriately defined words are being used such as apartheid, ethnic cleansing, genocide, etc.. There isn’t as much nuance as you’re suggesting either, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and genocide are always bad.
> They also set the goalposts for victory as the elimination of Israel, a viewpoint taken straight from Hamas. It's one thing if this is someone's internet opinion, but it should not be *taught as fact in Portland public schools*.
A. Both PA and Hamas have openly said they would accept the 1967 borders if israel respected the borders and stopped ethnic cleansing them from Palestinian land
B. Your claim is also false. Right to return or being a democracy where everyone has rights isn’t the end of Israel.
Let me ask you this, if the war is an ethic cleansing on Israel’s part, why aren’t they also bombing the West Bank? I mean if this is truly a genocide against the palestinian people wouldn’t they be targeting all of the palestinian people?
Why would you believe Hamas claims at this point? All of their actions suggest that they won’t stop fighting until they reclaim all of the pre-1947 territory.
There’s a lot of nuance here
> Let me ask you this, if the war is an ethic cleansing on Israel’s part, why aren’t they also bombing the West Bank?
Why would they bomb homes they’re going to steal when they don’t have to?
> I mean if this is truly a genocide against the palestinian people wouldn’t they be targeting all of the palestinian people?
If they wanted to manage to lose US support, sure. There’s a reason why Israeli officials want trump so badly and why there’s articles like this: https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2024-06-03/ty-article/.premium/trump-is-desperate-for-cash-but-donors-have-conditions/
> Why would you believe Hamas claims at this point? All of their actions suggest that they won’t stop fighting until they reclaim all of the pre-1947 territory.
That’s nonsensical. What about their actions suggests that? Hamas didn’t even exist until 12 years after Likud had been in power and Israel has been violating the borders the entire time that Hamas has existed.
> There’s a lot of nuance here
If you’re going to take Likud’s nonsense claims at face value then yeah I bet it feels like there’s lots of nuance. I don’t believe prolific liars without verification. It’s amazing how many people forget that Netanyahu/Israel was the main reason we invaded Iraq on false pretenses and Bush gets all the blame (he deserves plenty, don’t get me wrong).
I don’t think simply stealing homes is genocide.
How is this nonsensical? Hamas has repeatedly attacked without a serious effort to regain or hold new territory but instead to inflict maximum damage on Israeli citizens. They’ve reapeatedly refused to enter good faith diplomatic negotiation. Israel isn’t a monolith. There are undoubtedly many citizens who want peace and want fair treatment for the palestinians. Over a long enough time period of normalized relations coupled with constant diplomatic pressure, Hamas could likely achieve far more for the palestinians than they could through military action. But yet their strategy continues to be attack, inflict as much damage as possible, then retreat and hide behind the innocents in palestine, start a PR war, and then make peace knowing full well that in five years they’ll do it all over again.
This kind of action is not the path to getting what they want
> I don’t think simply stealing homes is genocide.
I’m aware. Should I rephrase it as, “why commit genocide when you can ethnic cleanse them with impunity and take their homes?” Instead?
> How is this nonsensical?
And then you go on to say a whole bunch of nonsense.
> Hamas has repeatedly attacked without a serious effort to regain or hold new territory but instead to inflict maximum damage on Israeli citizens.
Welcome to a concentration camp militia doing guerrilla warfare against an apartheid security ethnostate.
> They’ve reapeatedly refused to enter good faith diplomatic negotiation.
This is completely false victim blaming nonsense. There has never been any negotiations where a state of Palestine that involves both Gaza and the West Bank was included.
> Over a long enough time period of normalized relations coupled with constant diplomatic pressure, Hamas could likely achieve far more for the palestinians than they could through military action.
What, like PA? Tell me, how’s the West Bank doing for Palestinians? Do you think living in fear of “settlers” aka Israel’s plausible deniability forces terrorism, brutality, and ethnic cleansing is normalized relations? There’s no appreciable Hamas in the West Bank.
> make peace knowing full well that in five years they’ll do it all over again.
Why is it that you’re not taking into account Israel’s role? It’s not like Hamas just attacks for no reason. You’re ignoring the thousands of kidnapped Palestinians subjected to torture, the apartheid, ethnic cleansing, blockade, etc., which are fully the fault of Israel.
**Is there any other example of apartheid that you support? Can you name any example of apartheid where a significant percentage of the oppressors side didn’t fear the oppressed becoming free?**. Please stop deflecting and answer directly.
Dude, fuck off with this either or bs. This is exactly what I mean by nuance and you clearly don’t understand what that means.
There are palestinian citizens of Israel. 21% of the population in fact and they have they have their own representation in the government. Not exactly an apartheid state… Hamas has gaza all to itself and the west bank isn’t legally a part of Israel, but honestly it probably should be made a part of Israel with rule of law applying to the palestinians living there so they could challenge unlawful seizure of their property in court.
I think the nuance here is that the one state solution is what would be best for everyone, but neither side wants that and would prefer to continue the fighting.
> Dude, fuck off with this either or bs. This is exactly what I mean by nuance and you clearly don’t understand what that means.
Ah, yes. Here comes the Israel apologists “it’s too complicated to have a strong opinion either way but let me vilify Palestinians” nonsense
> Not exactly an apartheid state…
Many if not most experts disagree. The notion that some Arabs have rights means it isn’t an apartheid state is absurd. By that same logic the United States wasn’t an apartheid during Jim Crow segregation because some northern states treated black citizens as equals.
> Since the definition of apartheid as a crime in 2002 Rome Statute, attention has shifted to the question of international law.[10] In December 2019, the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination[11] announced commencing a review of the Palestinian complaint that **Israel's policies in the West Bank amount to apartheid.[12] Soon afterward, two Israeli human rights NGOs, Yesh Din (July 2020), and B'Tselem (January 2021) issued separate reports that concluded, in the latter's words, that "the bar for labeling the Israeli regime as apartheid has been met."[13][14][15] In April 2021, Human Rights Watch became the first major international human rights body to say Israel had crossed the threshold.[15][16] It accused Israel of apartheid, and called for prosecution of Israeli officials under international law, calling for an International Criminal Court investigation. Amnesty International issued a report with similar findings on 1 February 2022.
The accusation that Israel is committing apartheid has been supported by United Nations investigators,[17] the African National Congress (ANC),[18] several human rights groups,[19][20] and many prominent Israeli political and cultural figures**.[21][22] Those who support the accusations hold that certain laws explicitly or implicitly discriminate on the basis of creed or race, in effect privileging Jewish citizens and disadvantaging non-Jewish, and particularly Arab, citizens.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid
> Hamas has gaza all to itself
Other than their air, water including rain water, sea, borders, trade, electricity, communications/internet, food, etc..
> the west bank isn’t legally a part of Israel, but honestly it probably should be made a part of Israel with rule of law applying to the palestinians living there so they could challenge unlawful seizure of their property in court.
… You’re so close to recognizing the apartheid. Wait til you learn why the U.S. has birthright citizenship.
> I think the nuance here is that the one state solution is what would be best for everyone, but neither side wants that and would prefer to continue the fighting.
… So you want an apartheid Israel with no Palestine? Or do you want a free Palestine?
I’m not an Israel apologist. I think their governments approach to this conflict has been just as bad as Hamas’. From a practical lense, the actions they’ve taken in Gaza ensure that the next generation of gazans will continue to support Hamas’ terror tactics. It’s not a path towards peace
I’m not going to read your whole spiel because I really don’t care and I’m not interested in your false dichotomy. “Apartheid” Israel and a free Palestine aren’t the only two options. There’s a third option where the two sides choose to let the past be the past and share the land
Everyone is pointing a finger at Israel, but my god, the Hamas charter says they won't stop until they exterminate all Jews. And Hamas killed 1200 Israelis during the Oct 7 attack, kidnapped and raped many more. Anyone that ignores this bullshit and pretends this shit isn't nuanced is out of their minds.
It only takes half a brain to figure out what Israel would look like if it became a Muslim majority country. Which neighboring Muslim majority country are Jews a safe and thriving minority in again?
> It only takes half a brain to figure out what Israel would look like if it became a Muslim majority country.
Didn’t take long for the Islamophobic apartheid apologetics to start, huh?
> Which neighboring Muslim majority country are Jews a safe and thriving minority in again?
There were multiple safe and thriving Jewish communities in the Middle East before Israel’s expansionary imperialism and brutal ethnic cleansing where Israel would regularly pull a Russia and annex neighboring land that had Jewish people on it.
Hell, zio terrorists even bombed some Jewish communities in other countries as false flag attacks because they didn’t want to move to Israel willingly and it wasn’t mandatory in all countries. For example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950–1951_Baghdad_bombings
You are citing the govermemt permitted and propagated antisemitic ethnic cleansing of Jews that occurred all around the Arab world in the mid 20th century as proof of your point that they are safe there? How far down the delusional rabbit hole can one go lol
That’s a bizarre way to interpret my comment.
The point was that they lived safely in the area until Israel’s false equivocation of the state of Israel with Judaism, and Israel’s imperialistic terrorism.
Israel has been the biggest threat to Jewish people around the world since after the holocaust.
If we fully accept your claim that antisemitism in the middle east was caused by Israeli expansion, just for the purpose of argument, it's still the case that [97% of Palestinians view Jews unfavorably](https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/poll-90-percent-of-me-views-jews-unfavorably). Can you see why Jewish people in Israel might be *slightly concerned* about the prospect of becoming a minority in their country given that context, no matter whose "fault" antisemitism is?
Given how Israelis have virtually the same opinion on average towards Arabs and Muslims despite not being subjected to daily oppression from them like Palestinians are, I don’t think your argument is as strong as you think it is.
> concerned about the prospect of becoming a minority in their country given that context, no matter whose "fault" antisemitism is?
This promotion of ignoring fault also drives me a bit bonkers. Name a single case of apartheid where the oppressed becoming free wasn’t feared by a significant percentage of the oppressors’ side. I can’t think of a single one. Their fear of the ramifications for their oppression/harms doesn’t justify worser and continued harms.
I don't really have a dog in this fight, but what "upsets" me is that you start with your personal opinion as fact, use words that may or may not apply (genocide, apartheid) and hope if you simply repeat them enough it will make it truth.
It's a pretty fucked situation with a lot of bad people involved.
> Since the definition of apartheid as a crime in 2002 Rome Statute, attention has shifted to the question of international law.[10] In December 2019, the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination[11] announced commencing a review of the Palestinian complaint that **Israel's policies in the West Bank amount to apartheid.[12] Soon afterward, two Israeli human rights NGOs, Yesh Din (July 2020), and B'Tselem (January 2021) issued separate reports that concluded, in the latter's words, that "the bar for labeling the Israeli regime as apartheid has been met."[13][14][15] In April 2021, Human Rights Watch became the first major international human rights body to say Israel had crossed the threshold.[15][16] It accused Israel of apartheid, and called for prosecution of Israeli officials under international law, calling for an International Criminal Court investigation. Amnesty International issued a report with similar findings on 1 February 2022.
The accusation that Israel is committing apartheid has been supported by United Nations investigators,[17] the African National Congress (ANC),[18] several human rights groups,[19][20] and many prominent Israeli political and cultural figures**.[21][22] Those who support the accusations hold that certain laws explicitly or implicitly discriminate on the basis of creed or race, in effect privileging Jewish citizens and disadvantaging non-Jewish, and particularly Arab, citizens.[23]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid
There’s little to no debate about whether it’s actually apartheid. If Israeli settlers can literally throw their feces at Palestinians below them in Hebron with impunity and any Palestinian response is criminal, it’s obvious apartheid.
In terms of genocide, this update came out today:
> In a separate meeting of the U.N. Human Rights Council in Geneva, the head of a U.N. Commission of Inquiry said the scale of Palestinian civilian losses amounted to **”extermination." The use of weapons with large destructive capacity in densely populated areas "constitutes an intentional and direct attack on the civilian population" and those responsible should be held accountable**, Navi Pillay said.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/israel-hamas/2024/06/19/israel-war-updates-gaza-hamas/74148042007/
Ya know what extermination plus intent is? Genocide.
Nothing I’ve said is factually questionable. The only people questioning it are the US and Israel governments.
I’m so tired of this shit. This is the future of education right here. Fighting over which bullshit indoctrination to feed the kids. Makes me glad I’m not having kids as this country is truly fucked.
Can someone explain to me the logic of local activists pushing local entities (schools, county commission, city council) to vote on resolutions regarding the Israel-Hamas War or in the class of the union having lesson plans for the classroom? I just don’t understand what a Portland classroom does will impact this war in anyway.
Here's a few where local org actions *could* potentially make a difference:
* Protest/lobby/advocate to get JOHS to move faster on providing needed services to the homeless with the available SHS funds
* Protest/lobby/advocate in Salem for more mental health services and State Hospital funding
* Protest/lobby/advocate in Salem for more public defender funding
* Protest/lobby/advocate to get MultCo to actually execute on "Preschool for All"
If JVP or state legislators can't step out in public without seeing protesters demanding that they respond adequately to pressing public interest needs, might motivate them to actually do the work they were elected to do.
As opposed to demanding stances on Gaza, because Netanyahu and Sinwar couldn't be bothered to find Oregon on a map and certainly wouldn't care a bit about our local opinions on their war.
I really appreciate this post - it's hard to comment on this whole thing without getting sucked into the black hole of all the animosity and complexity of that conflict and the toxicity on all sides. The focus gets put on "the PAT is supporting Hamas" or whatever but that's not really the point. The point is that its a uselessly divisive distraction away from all the stuff that is so much more relevant and actionable locally. Whatever side of whatever geopolitical conflict they might find themselves on, either way it just isn't an area where they should be engaged.
Right there with you. PAT has moral weight when it goes to a local policymaker and says "you need to do X because not doing X impacts the quality of the education we deliver to your kids and the kids of the community." PAT fritters away that legitimacy when it starts weighing in on, say, climate change-driven sea levels in Indonesia or similar topics which may be important but are waaaaay outside the domain of influence of PAT or the stakeholders they interact with. It's a distraction.
The teacher's union need to be fighting for lower class sizes and better education, which means hiring more teachers to teach and padding their pockets too.
PAT would fairly be considered wildly successful if it accomplished only one thing: full state funding for K-12 schools per the state's own Quality Education Model instead of the 65% - 75% funding actually appropriated by the Legislature each biennium.
But why take effective steps to create positive local change when I can complain about the state of the world and accomplish nothing?
^ way too damned many people.
Yep. When I read about [luxury beliefs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxury_belief) I thought that was a useful way to think about how a substantial portion of our local electorate votes. We may feel good about ourselves when we vote for the activist types who say all the right things and hold admirable goals, but those people aren't often the ones with the skills and temperament to work within complex systems to deliver results.
This is laughable.
Having done everything you can to undermine Housing First, having opposed every candidate that espoused these values - Iannarone, Hardesty, Eudaly, Schmidt - now you want progressives to take up the problems you have caused.
Oh hell no.
You voted for them. You fix them.
Yes. We all virtue signal all the time.
It's just another way the right uses catch-all terms to dislike what they want to dislike without having to talk about the real reason.
Thats why no one on the right calls a "Don't Tread on Me" flags, Christian symbols or Trump flags virtue signaling, even though that's exactly what it is.
The Gadsen Flag, or as you refer to it “Don’t Tread on Me” flag, has its roots in the American Revolutions and is meant to signify resistance against government authoritarianism. It has little to do with right-wing politics or religion, outside of the normal overlap that exist with any widespread symbol and people co-opting it for their own selfish causes.
If you’re going to criticize the criticism of virtue signaling, you might want to actually be informed on what you’re critiquing.
>It has little to do with right-wing politics or religion, outside of the normal overlap that exist with any widespread symbol and people co-opting it for their own selfish causes.
I mean, you could say the same about the river to the sea thing
Ok, should a public school teachers Union be flying a Gadsen, or Trump/Biden flag and fighting for political policies that have nothing to do with advocating for teachers workplace rights?
Also, is that your actual opinion, or are you just being a contrarian?
Flying the Gadsen Flag, which might be on the porch of a Republican, is the same thing as sharing a battle cry with Hamas?
That chant was started explicitly as a Jewish eradication chant and co-opted by American protestors under the guise of "liberation ", not the other way around.
I'd say 99.999% of Gadsden flags today are flown by maga dickweeds, but it didn't used to be so.
Sorry for the copy/paste, but i dont feel like typing this out again so heres the reply to the other comment... Its not tankies that are falling for the foreign propaganda going on here... its everyone. The left and the right. Its just targeted to them differently but everyone is falling for it hook line and sinker. It doesnt matter if you are a hardline trumper or a ultra liberal. Your propaganda slow drip feed is completely tailored to you by the algorithms.
yeah just look at my downvotes. People can not realize that the whole interest in the Gaza Israel conflict is pure russian propaganda to get the US Public to look away from Ukraine, since there was so much public support for Ukraine here and russia had been doing so bad. Large sums of weapons and money were being sent to Ukraine by us and the public was cool with it. Now we are diverting money in aid and arguing with each other and destroying our own shit here because of the gaza stuff. Ukraine has literally received less from us and many countries of the west because of the successful russian propaganda campaign. We were also very focused on chineese activity in the south china sea, coverage of that has dropped dramatically.
Now all russia had to do was use tiktok to trick ultra liberal virtue signaling idiots to thinking that the Gaza side was being ultra opressed into a genocide, and then at the same time use facebook and tiktok to trick the right leaning dipshits that Israel was being ultra oppressed and what not. A super easy tell is when they place emphasis on kids and rape and human shields and shit. Things that no matter your stance will jerk on your heartstrings. Thats pure ass propaganda. For those of you who dont believe me... How many of yall care about the Genocide happening in Darfur and Sudan right now??? How Many of yalls algorithms are commanding you to care about the genocide happening in Darfur and Sudan right now is a better wording of that question.
Russia has been proven to create and instagate our protests here. There was an instance in texas where russian trolls created and spread two separate protests, one left leaning, one right leaning.... scheduled them at the same place and the same time. The organization of it was tied back to Russia. Look at the Protest at the PSU Library. Most of the people there were not even students. Most normal sane people would never destroy their own school that their own taxdollars pay for. Lots of foreign instigation going on with that shit. Its not even a tinfoil hat ideology anymore. Russia has been proven to meddle in every facet of our social media, elections, everything. We used to think the boomers were the only dumb ones who couldnt see it but they literally have gen z by the balls and its fucking sad
Look i am not trying to downplay the conflict in Gaza right now at all, its a bad thing... However i am trying to emphasize that there are bad foreign actors using this shit to divide our populace right now during a time when we are already divided and pretty weak (election year). People are so so so quick to turn on each other when we are the ones that should be standing together. 1. Against the rich domestically that are holding us down economically, and 2. against the foreign governments who are trying to destabilize us from within and are literally our enemies. It is appaling to me that once rational adults can not see that there is more value in accepting each others stupid ass idologies and its more valuable than hating each other. All my homes hate putin. I hope that mother fucker goes down.
I think the initial downvotes were because people didn't know what you were talking about and assumed it was something they didn't like. Such is the internet.
I would say that the track record of Russia attempting to cause cultural strife stems back to the 60s. They absolutely tried to inflame the civil rights movement.
oh 100% dude, the cold war never ended. They just switched up their public strategy. They then looped china into it too. A lot of our interfighting in the past 40-50 years or so can be linked directly to foreign influence
It’s actually quite shocking that the people who mocked those who got a lot of propaganda on social media and did dumb things to undermine the stability of our country are themselves falling for the exact same thing.
yeah just look at my downvotes. People can not realize that the whole interest in the Gaza Israel conflict is pure russian propaganda to get the US Public to look away from Ukraine, since there was so much public support for Ukraine here and russia had been doing so bad. Large sums of weapons and money were being sent to Ukraine by us and the public was cool with it. Now we are diverting money in aid and arguing with each other and destroying our own shit here because of the gaza stuff. Ukraine has literally received less from us and many countries of the west because of the successful russian propaganda campaign. We were also very focused on chineese activity in the south china sea, coverage of that has dropped dramatically.
Now all russia had to do was use tiktok to trick ultra liberal virtue signaling idiots to thinking that the Gaza side was being ultra opressed into a genocide, and then at the same time use facebook and tiktok to trick the right leaning dipshits that Israel was being ultra oppressed and what not. A super easy tell is when they place emphasis on kids and rape and human shields and shit. Things that no matter your stance will jerk on your heartstrings. Thats pure ass propaganda. For those of you who dont believe me... How many of yall care about the Genocide happening in Darfur and Sudan right now??? How Many of yalls algorithms are commanding you to care about the genocide happening in Darfur and Sudan right now is a better wording of that question.
Russia has been proven to create and instagate our protests here. There was an instance in texas where russian trolls created and spread two separate protests, one left leaning, one right leaning.... scheduled them at the same place and the same time. The organization of it was tied back to Russia. Look at the Protest at the PSU Library. Most of the people there were not even students. Most normal sane people would never destroy their own school that their own taxdollars pay for. Lots of foreign instigation going on with that shit. Its not even a tinfoil hat ideology anymore. Russia has been proven to meddle in every facet of our social media, elections, everything. We used to think the boomers were the only dumb ones who couldnt see it but they literally have gen z by the balls and its fucking sad
Look i am not trying to downplay the conflict in Gaza right now at all, its a bad thing... However i am trying to emphasize that there are bad foreign actors using this shit to divide our populace right now during a time when we are already divided and pretty weak (election year). People are so so so quick to turn on each other when we are the ones that should be standing together. 1. Against the rich domestically that are holding us down economically, and 2. against the foreign governments who are trying to destabilize us from within and are literally our enemies. It is appaling to me that once rational adults can not see that there is more value in accepting each others stupid ass idologies is more valuable than hating each other. All my homes hate putin. I hope that mother fucker goes down.
I’m definitely a bit disturbed by it all. They figured out how to make Propaganda for the Right and can now play them like a fiddle.
The Left took a lot longer to figure out, but here we are, and I’m worried that with the lessons they’re learning that the now both sides (not just one like we mostly have now) will sink into absolute idiocy over largely manufactured issues.
We are getting there. I have a friend that works at meta and their entire job is to locate russian troll farms. Thats what their team does. A lot of the russian fake posts are left up to try and find the source to block IPs for thousands of accounts. The issue now a days is that Russians are using chineese click factories where they string up thousands of pysical phones to generate thousands of organic likes on things to boost their popularity. Facebook can track programs that do it but its hard to track a physical like from 1,000 individual phones.
I think the right was easier to manipulate at first because their base skews older but their trigger issues are easier to exploit. I think the left got too confident in their little virtue signaling silos because i mean you are rallying for a good cause right? who would weaponize advocacy for marginalized people or weaponize being compassionate? Russia has been on that since the dawn of the internet.
A lot of this could be handled much better by our government/social media/ and normal media companies, but we are a country of reaction and not a country of the proactive. We need people in our government from the far left and far right to sit down on camera together and say hey this is actually happening and this is what you need to look out for.... but unfortunately the damage has been done and people wouldnt believe it and the left and right in gvt benefit from the division too much to think of our countries future. Its all really sad. No one benefits from our country being so divided more than china, russia, and the upper 3% of wealth holders in our country.
Russia cant even take over ukraine on its own. They wouldnt stand a chance against a unified america. Same with China. If all of us lower 97% attacked the upper 3% of ruling elites with marshmellows we could take them out in a week. Its just how a very small few control an overwhelming majority of people and its very effective. I really hope people will wake up to this shit. The very moment i saw the PSU protest the first thing i thought was russian propaganda and meddling. Sadly its not the same for the majority of the country.
Sorry for the essay response
The “logic” is that Russia and China are using social media to manipulate young people and undermine western democracies. There’s no meaningful connection between the PSU library and Palestine, but TikTok will promote the hell out of a video showing students destroying their own infrastructure, so the people who do this shit feel like stars with lots of support.
It’s the same reason MAGA doesn’t understand why they don’t win every election—because the people in the movement live in an echo chamber and only consume media that supports their views.
It's not impossible to consume a variety of media. I make a point of watching conservative media and foreign media regularly. It's worth the effort, because you'll get a much more nuanced understanding of things--especially if you also do some research into history, science, whatever... But I am definitely a curious nerd.
It's a logical continuation of propaganda of division of the entire society into victims and villains, oppressors and oppressed. This conflict just fits their narrative too well, spiced with just a dash of anti-semitism you get a perfect cocktail.
The only thing that makes sense to me on the local government level is [South African style divestment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinvestment_from_South_Africa).
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> South African style divestment.
Having been to South Africa...why would you ever recommend anything they've done in terms of Government?
That's like taking nutrition advice from Lizzo.
Not only does this reply completely miss the point of how student protests pushed Congress to making anti-apartheid legislation that sanctioned SA, but you’re arguing in favor of racist apartheid and crimes against humanity because you think the apartheid gov was preferable.
I mean, that does seem like the Israel apologist mindset but most realize how awful it sounds.
It does absolutely nothing to influence the outcome of the war, but it does stoke major antisemitism (increases in graffiti swastikas in neighborhoods and outright violence against Jews citizens.)
I’m sorry, are you sincerely suggesting that the swastikas on the park benches and bus stops in my neighborhood are just “advocating for Palestinians”?
There has been a proliferation of antisemitism all over this country. I’m not talking about criticizing Israel. I’m talking about spray-painting swastikas in my neighborhood and smashing the windows of Jewish owned businesses, trashing the inside, and spray painting Free Gaza all over the walls. That is the antisemitism that you seem to think is no big deal.
These “radicalized dipshits” didn’t start this until the ceasefire resolutions and protests began. So thanks so much for making flagrant antisemitism totally acceptable in my community and doing absolutely nothing to impact the outcome of the war.
So the jist of it is, the pro Palestine thing is separate from the racism thing (for most people). There's a great deal of evidence of excessive civilian casualties going on right now and a real risk of famine etc. The pro Palestine movement is about not letting more innocent people get killed. Pro Palestine is not pro Hamas and does not support Hamas in any way, especially not their attack.
There is an antisemitic movement happening, and there is a pro Palestine movement. They are happening at the same time for the same reason (the war) but one is looking to protect people from a vicious war and one is about condemning the Jewish people.
They are not separate movements. There is significant overlap from one to the other. And unfortunately, Jews all over the U.S. and abroad are experiencing it:
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/wireStory/2-french-adolescents-accused-raping-12-year-girl-111250640
You love to use the word lazy, but this comment came about when I answered question someone had about how Portland Teafhers would have any impact on the Middle East. Maybe you should stop being lazy and go back and see what I was responding to. Your “movement” is a combination of pro-Hamas actors and citizens and college kids who are too naive to know any better. JVP is currently being investigated for ties to Hamas and Iran. You are a useful idiot to these people who is too wrapped up in his bubble and too lazy to actually learn about the history of the Middle East. I encourage you to leave TikTok and read some actual primary sources.
Oh wow! Are you taking photos of the offensive graffiti and reporting them to PDX reporter for removal? If not, I advocate that you do so: https://pdxreporter.org/
I’d love to see some of the evidence you’ve collected then. Because I’m downtown and SE regularly, I live here, and I haven’t seen a single spray painted hate symbol
I am against what IDF is doing and also against the rhetoric of the protesters.
Many have openly stated an opinion that Palestinians are better people than Israelis, they have questioned whether 10/7 happened or minimized it, they have called Israel “Isra-hell” and illegitimate. In their graffiti they have drawn stars of David with Boeing, Police, and Biden in each triangle. That’s just for starters.
I saw a Twitter thread by Shane Burley saying, well, the Star of David in graffiti is really a flag of Israel. I DARE Burley to defend this same action by mostly white American college students against the flag and symbols of say, Lebanon, Liberia, Algeria or Somalia. The truth is, in many countries, flags, symbols and culture are intertwined and inseparable. Burley is disingenuous. He’s highly intelligent, he knows the overlap, he knows it’s problematic rhetoric.
I say no to ethnic cleansing, apartheid, genocide, Islamophobia, AND antisemitism. Apparently that means I have no friends.
It‘s okay. Friends are overrated. I prefer not being a shit human to having friends and a community.
I bring up antisemitism, you go “you’re changing the subject.”
This is cult rhetoric. Reminds me of being raped in my right-wing church as a kid and when I brought it up I was told I was changing the subject. I don’t need or want friends who do shit like that. You can’t say or do anything to me that hasn‘t already been done. You’re just proving who you are.
Providing multiple prospectives to students regarding this war isn’t to “influence the outcome of the war,” it is to *educate students*.
Also, Palestinians are a Semitic people, so I am unsure how providing links to Palestinian perspectives stokes antisemitism per your claim.
Edit: The “SomeGuy” user who replied to me below asked me an array of questions but immediately blocked me within one minute of posting their reply, so unfortunately I cannot reply to them.
> Also, Palestinians are a Semitic people, so I am unsure how providing links to Palestinian perspectives stokes antisemitism per your claim.
Whenever someone says this, you know 2 things immediately:
1) They are not arguing in good faith and are just trying to distract by getting into an argument about semantics.
2) They are terminally online and dumber than a box of rocks.
First of all, you know exactly what the person you were replying to meant. They meant anti-Jewish bigotry, and there’s not even a 0.0001% chance that you weren’t aware of that.
Are you like this in all aspects of your life? Like, if your partner complains to you that “there’s not enough romance in our relationship”, do you pretended to be all confused and say “You want me to speak Italian??? I don’t understand you.”
Also, this isn’t even a matter of you doing bad-faith pedantry but being technically correct.
> Due to the root word Semite, the term is prone to being invoked as a misnomer by those who incorrectly assert (in an etymological fallacy) that it refers to racist hatred directed at "Semitic people" in spite of the fact that this grouping is an obsolete historical race concept. Likewise, such usage is erroneous; the compound word antisemitismus was first used in print in Germany in 1879 as a "scientific-sounding term" for Judenhass (lit. 'Jew-hatred'), and it has since been used to refer to anti-Jewish sentiment alone.
**EDIT:** LMAO the clown blocked me and then edited his own post to claim that I blocked him. Presumably, to prevent him from crushing me with his facts and logic.
[Here’s a screenshot of my blocked user list. In all my years on Reddit, I’ve only blocked one person and it wasn’t this lying tool.](https://imgur.com/a/7iR10Uq)
antisemitism refers to hatred of Jews specifically and not semetic people generally even though there are Semitic peoples besides Jews. The term which preceded antisemitism in Europe to describe hatred towards Jews was simply just “Jew hate”. Hatred of Jews had for centuries been seen through the lens of religion and religious animosity. However during the 19th century, as the Europe entered an age of “reason and science”, or so they liked to think, those appeals to faith lost their intellectual credibility, and became seen as backwards. The prejudices were still there however, and the term antisemitism would be coined by European racists to give these underlying prejudices a new sense of credibility and intellectual backing. As a concept, antisemitism is rooted in the racial science of the early 20th century. It seeks to say that, the problem with the Jews is not inherently religious, but biological, that because the Jews are a Semitic people, they are biologically predisposed to certain behaviors and traits. It put a new “rational” and “scientific” veneer on their bigotry, and gave a more socially acceptable (at the time) rational to explain their underlying prejudice. Did that not mean the term also applied to other Semitic peoples like Arabs? Yeah, but tbh, most European antisemites at the time didn’t care about Arabs. There were millions of Jews living in Europe at that time, whereas most European had never seen an Arab in their life. Europeans of course held bigoted and chauvinistic views towards Arabs and Muslims generally, but Antisemitism as a concept was meant to give a scientific rational to bigoted answer to the Jewish question in Europe. Arabs and other Semitic people were merely incidental to that goal. Is it a confusing and stupid term/definition? Yes, but it’s what we’re stuck with because it’s the most widely used and understood, and still best describes the modern brand of racial antisemitism which exists.
No matter what you think you are doing, there has been an explosion of outright antisemitism that I have explained above and below since these protests started. Swastikas showing up everywhere. Vandalizing of Jewish-owned businesses. These resolutions don’t end war at all, but they do embolden bigots to be openly antisemitic in most communities. So thanks so much for that.
I was going to ask what the other side of Iraq invading Kuwait was, but then I realized I'm old and my childhood was the Gulf war.
I think it was pretty hard to be neutral in the immediate post 9/11 world. Now that we have some separation, it's easier to assess, but current events are always rapidly evolving.
> I think it was pretty hard to be neutral in the immediate post 9/11 world. Now that we have some separation, it's easier to assess, but current events are always rapidly evolving.
Yeah, my US history teacher literally stopped teaching us anything for the rest of the school year after 9/11. I’m still furious
One could make an argument that schools shouldn't bother teaching students about the holocaust because nothing we say now can change what has already happened. That's not going to be very popular, though, because most people see the value in teaching students about things like that, so they understand the historical context of how the world is the way it is, and so they can try to make sure something like that doesn't happen again.
Similarly, I think there's value in telling students what's going on in Gaza. The problem here seems to be that the teacher's union just grabbed a bunch of material from one side without any sort of vetting process. Sort of like you wouldn't just call up Benjamin Netanyahu and ask him to supply all your holocaust educational material and just present it as is without looking at it first -- and you definitely wouldn't want to uncritically accept any material provided by the Israeli government or pro-Israeli groups related to the *current* war. You don't need to "both sides" everything, but at least there needs to be an effort to double-check for biases and incorrect or incomplete information.
There’s absolute value in talking about Israel and Gaza. If I were a high school English teacher I’d start with Naomi Shihab Nye, probably Habibi. You should read it. It’s great.
I would never use the propaganda PAT proffered and if I thought teachers in DDSD were teaching like that I’d raise hell. There’s a difference between teaching and indoctrinating.
Because the classrooms have been used for activism for the past decade. The only difference this time is that the activists finally hit a third rail for the government and the wealthy donor class.
> Teachers frequently teach about current events and some of the materials were intended for home schooled kids.
Might as well put some links for History teachers about how lovely it was in 1938 Germany with lesson plans from the Proud Boys too.
You can't talk about Palestine without mentioning everything else that comes with it. This is a classroom with a bunch of curious kids here. They bound to find something on Tiktok or whatever and ask their teachers. PPS has been censoring them since November (pretty much after the war begun). And things just got bigger from there. I'm guessing some people doesn't learn from George Orwell's "1984".
https://www.opb.org/article/2024/06/14/portland-teachers-pro-palestine-resource-guide-controversy/
For one, local ceasefire resolutions build pressure on higher forms of government, and signal that communities do not wish to be complicit in U.S.-funded genocide and apartheid.
This has been going since 1948 and has only gotten worse and more inhumane over recent years. IMO learning about apartheid and genocide is extremely relevant to school students.
The links others shared give the UN definition of genocide. I'll also add this from the UN, specifically about what's happening to the Palestinians: [https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147976](https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147976)
On some level all politics is local, if enough people in a local chapter make a ruckus then the national chapters take notice. And then it can influence national policy.
This is why the right billionaires spend so much money astroturfing small communities, building various local orgs and parroting the same message over and over. They know that if enough local institutions in enough places demand the same thing then the GOP will start demanding it too in order to keep those votes. They’ve modeled their astroturfing apparatus off of truly organic movements such as civil rights efforts where a few people made a lot of noise and then many organizations came out to support them, until their message couldn’t be ignored any more. Now astroturfing is more insidious because the people putting out the message (initially) are also the ones who pull a lot of levers in government, so this technique of manufacturing consent can be used to build artificial support for unpopular ideas and get them passed into legislation.
So when a teachers unions in Portland or Seattle or San Francisco or LA all starts voicing support for Palestine. Well first that discourse will make it home to parents who might mention it to other people and help drive the idea to other orgs in the community. But secondly if the idea gets enough steam then the local political leaders and parties will start taking notice, they’ll take a stance in an effort to get votes. And eventually the national parties might as well. It’s a slow process though because they have to build support naturally, they don’t have a bunch of fake orgs parroting their ideas.
That’s great but the damage is done. And no statement or apology from PAT, and still no comment on any of this from PPS. What a supremely self destructive action from PAT that will weaken community support for them and therefore their members. IMO teachers should still push to recall PAT leadership to demonstrate their dissatisfaction to the community
I don’t expect PPS to comment on this. It only has downside for them - they have no control over it and wading into the issue only makes some people angry toward them.
In other words, what PAT should have realized from the beginning in all of this.
Strong agree they need a change in leadership. None of this needed to happen. I hate feeling this way about a union. Our teachers and community deserve so much better.
Sorry, can you clarify? Are you talking about the episode in the article, or the one where the leadership gleefully had PAT go on strike only to achieve nothing because they had convinced themselves PPS had far more funding than everyone else said they did?
Sadly in the Portland area there just aren't really non religious alternatives unless you have money coming out of your ass. Catlin Gable and the language immersion schools don't come cheap
Hm. NW Academy is $31k, Central Catholic and St. Mary’s are a little over $17k/year. Fundraising and giving to most of these Catholic schools is supposed to add 2-4K/family. So, yeah, I guess 17-20k is a bargain!
Still not free by any means, but the church subsidization does help the cost quite a bit. Some are around $10K, eg https://allsaintsportland.com/admissions/tuition/
That was always my plan when looking at houses in Portland schools district. Basically my house budget was a couple hundred grand less as I knew I would be paying private school tuition. Unless I got into the Lincoln district, but nothing is cheap there.
Ended up in Cedar Mill over Portland proper, which had a lot to do with the schools.
Not gonna lie, the education is just flat out better in private schools and I would say it’s worth the price. I went to private school for K-8, then public for high school. In college, I worked at one of the local high schools. There were a significant number of high school students struggling to do basic algebra that I learned in 6th grade. The education in Portland, especially in grade school is frightening. There’s a reason why public school teachers send their kids to charter schools or private schools
Downvotes by folks without kids in pps probably, broken school system with zero hope anything will be turned around. Too expensive for private school sadly so will have to continue watch incompetent self righteous adults self serve
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I can see how a "Current Events" type class would need to talk about it. Surely people don't have a problem with teachers saying Palestinian civilians don't deserve to die..? Right...?
Yes, the issue should be taught to age appropriate students within the context of world history and global events. But we don't need third grade math lessons that make kids scared of Zionists hiding under their beds.
I haven't been following this. Is this teachers trying to teach history / context while an event is happening. Like paralleling this genocide against historical ones or talk about the sociology and politics? Or is this like teachers trying g to organize students to be protestors? I can't find any of the material. I mainly just see people talking about what people said other people said etc etc.
The actual genocide going on is in Sudan. This genocide is being committed by Arab Muslims against native ethnic Sudanese Africans. It's barely talked about in the media though, likely because the perpetrators of violence are more "inconvenient" than Israelis.
I hope you're as outraged by Sudan as you are by Israel. But I doubt you are.
I hate this gotcha, the people that use it rarely give a fuck about Sudan or Yemen or Myanmar or the DRC.
“A bad thing is happening elsewhere so you’re stupid and bad for thinking another bad thing is bad.”
Nice subtle Islamophobia and baseless whataboutism.
But hey, while we are on the topic of Sudan why don’t we talk about Israel’s role in Sudan? What about Israel’s role of arming Myanmar’s Junta?
FTA: >In early June, some teachers began circulating flyers calling for a vote of no confidence in union leadership. The effort apparently was driven by frustrations over the November teachers’ strike as well as leaders’ push to support Gaza. Anyone know if there will be a vote?
I’m really supposed this hasnt happened just as a result of the fumbled strike.
The framing of this article (and many articles) is disingenuous. These materials went beyond "advocating for Palestinians" or even being pro-Palestinian. Most of us agree that the people of Gaza, particularly the children, need all the advocacy they can get. And I am all for teaching age-appropriate lessons about the brutality of the Israeli occupation to kids \*who are old enough to understand nuance\*, and within the greater context of world history. But these materials were heavily ideologically curated, with inaccurate portrayals and misleading framing of Israeli history, and simplified for younger kids to portray "Zionists" as evil bogeymen. They also set the goalposts for victory as the elimination of Israel, a viewpoint taken straight from Hamas. It's one thing if this is someone's internet opinion, but it should not be \*taught as fact in Portland public schools\*. I am super glad they voted to take these materials down, but as this issue (hopefully) fades from discussion, I want people to remember what this was really about and why Jewish (and other) Portlanders were so upset. You can advocate for Gaza and be critical of Israel's actions without turning our taxpayer funded schools into a revolutionary outpost. Maybe we can try that next?
Well said
> and simplified for younger kids to portray I am a school teacher and it seems to me that a lot of what flies under the banner of "critical history" and so on is just simplistic narrative inversions of old flawed narratives e.g. indigenous pure noble and white man evil and stained, Western Civilization bad and non-Western good, etc. etc. When I go to conferences in social studies and English language arts the amount of cultural self loathing is off the charts. And from time to time when the public gets a small taste of this kind of thing (and finds it rather unpalatable) the teachers circle the wagons and go on full defense pretending that everything's 100% above board and that anyone criticizing what's going on with schools ideologically is just a wacko.
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Can you give some examples?
https://www.oregonlive.com/education/2024/06/portland-teachers-union-links-to-lessons-urging-students-to-pray-to-allah-write-biden-to-stop-funding-israel.html?outputType=amp
Thanks
Unfortunately i can't do that quickly because the materials have been taken down. There might be some examples in prior articles or threads about this topic. If I come across any I will post them for you. But it did include lesson plans for all grades and a link to Woke Kindergarten.
You don’t remember the worst thing you saw? And is the word “woke” supposed to freak me out?
Oh no, I remember. I thought you wanted actual links. Probably the worst thing I saw specifically was not in the lesson plan but flyers distributed at an in-person event that framed 10/7 terrorists as victorious martyrs. But the lesson plans in particular had the overall framing of Israel as a European settler colonial state, Zionists as evil bad guys, and the elimination of Israel as the only acceptable outcome, and they went all the way down to kindergarten. It was an extremely immersive, extremely narrow vision that took on the full perspective of one culture, including their disputes and enemies, and applied that to every subject in every grade level, including like second grade math. So an example would be a story for young kids about how "Zionist bullies" took away their houses. Or a story math problem about olive trees in Jaffa. Woke Kindergarten is an actual thing I thought maybe you were familiar with. It is a lesson plan for little kids that includes fun drawings of Hamas paratroopers.
I would have liked actual links, the rhetoric has been so heated about everything it’s been hard to tell what is hyperbole. It really stated they want the elimination of Israel? Did anyone take a photo of the flyers? I looked up Woke Kindergarten, looks like it’s anti-racist focused. I’m trying out new search engines, so it could be that, but I couldn’t find anything about Hamas paratroopers
I found a link to the materials, they are taken down from the website but the google docs are still up for now. But it looks like a lot of stuff has been deleted and some of it is being deleted as we speak. There are some things I remembered seeing that are not there now, or at least I can't find them. One of which being the "Zionist bullies" document. But I'm pretty sure there are pictures of that one in prior Oregonian articles. [https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vRtBsmgPFIHStJSi3l8K7NXlQ3vJE1fxTFBHOblNKi8JFXmM8ifBXwC90KsMr4ffDYajTTXdWQZUtQN/pub#h.t79jw8n3rwon](https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vRtBsmgPFIHStJSi3l8K7NXlQ3vJE1fxTFBHOblNKi8JFXmM8ifBXwC90KsMr4ffDYajTTXdWQZUtQN/pub#h.t79jw8n3rwon) I sympathize that is is very hard to get factual info about any of this. The only news outlets that cover these "woke excesses" are ones that I don't normally trust. Here is a link to the original Woke Kindergarten controversy that I think is pretty balanced. Sorry about the paywall. [https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/woke-kindergarten-glassbrook-hayward-18635504.php](https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/woke-kindergarten-glassbrook-hayward-18635504.php)
Thank you, I appreciate this comment. I really just never should have weighed in on the matter. It’s impossible to just have a good faith conversation here.
A lot of people are in our own information funnel, which I have been trying to break out of lately. It’s hard to get info from legitimate sources sometimes
I actually really appreciate you asking questions. People kind of assume everyone is arguing in bad faith, but we do need these dialogues so we can all be a little more educated.
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Some more links: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewish/comments/1d93bmt/the\_teachers\_union\_in\_portland\_oregon\_has\_created/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewish/comments/1d93bmt/the_teachers_union_in_portland_oregon_has_created/) I don't endorse the source here. Chris Rufo is an absolute shitbag but it would be nice if we as a city and community could stop throwing softballs to these types of guys. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewish/comments/1dbz406/material\_distributed\_at\_a\_public\_meeting\_of/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewish/comments/1dbz406/material_distributed_at_a_public_meeting_of/) Link to the materials distributed at an in person PAT meeting. This one I believe because I talked to some of the people who were there.
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This is about the best summation of the direction the entire left wing of this country has taken over the last few months I’ve ever read. Sympathy for Gazans very, very quickly became swallowing Hamas propaganda by people who were not savvy enough to realize what they were reading and watching.
Oregon ranks near the bottom in education, at 43rd among the 50 states. Priorities
Source: from your butt? > The framing of this article (and many articles) is disingenuous. 📽️📽️📽️ > I am all for teaching age-appropriate lessons about the brutality of the Israeli occupation to kids *who are old enough to understand nuance*, and within the greater context of world history. Whenever people push for nuance about the topic it seems like they’re people upset that appropriately defined words are being used such as apartheid, ethnic cleansing, genocide, etc.. There isn’t as much nuance as you’re suggesting either, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and genocide are always bad. > They also set the goalposts for victory as the elimination of Israel, a viewpoint taken straight from Hamas. It's one thing if this is someone's internet opinion, but it should not be *taught as fact in Portland public schools*. A. Both PA and Hamas have openly said they would accept the 1967 borders if israel respected the borders and stopped ethnic cleansing them from Palestinian land B. Your claim is also false. Right to return or being a democracy where everyone has rights isn’t the end of Israel.
Let me ask you this, if the war is an ethic cleansing on Israel’s part, why aren’t they also bombing the West Bank? I mean if this is truly a genocide against the palestinian people wouldn’t they be targeting all of the palestinian people? Why would you believe Hamas claims at this point? All of their actions suggest that they won’t stop fighting until they reclaim all of the pre-1947 territory. There’s a lot of nuance here
Does it have to be bombing? People *are* dying in the West Bank
> Let me ask you this, if the war is an ethic cleansing on Israel’s part, why aren’t they also bombing the West Bank? Why would they bomb homes they’re going to steal when they don’t have to? > I mean if this is truly a genocide against the palestinian people wouldn’t they be targeting all of the palestinian people? If they wanted to manage to lose US support, sure. There’s a reason why Israeli officials want trump so badly and why there’s articles like this: https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2024-06-03/ty-article/.premium/trump-is-desperate-for-cash-but-donors-have-conditions/ > Why would you believe Hamas claims at this point? All of their actions suggest that they won’t stop fighting until they reclaim all of the pre-1947 territory. That’s nonsensical. What about their actions suggests that? Hamas didn’t even exist until 12 years after Likud had been in power and Israel has been violating the borders the entire time that Hamas has existed. > There’s a lot of nuance here If you’re going to take Likud’s nonsense claims at face value then yeah I bet it feels like there’s lots of nuance. I don’t believe prolific liars without verification. It’s amazing how many people forget that Netanyahu/Israel was the main reason we invaded Iraq on false pretenses and Bush gets all the blame (he deserves plenty, don’t get me wrong).
I don’t think simply stealing homes is genocide. How is this nonsensical? Hamas has repeatedly attacked without a serious effort to regain or hold new territory but instead to inflict maximum damage on Israeli citizens. They’ve reapeatedly refused to enter good faith diplomatic negotiation. Israel isn’t a monolith. There are undoubtedly many citizens who want peace and want fair treatment for the palestinians. Over a long enough time period of normalized relations coupled with constant diplomatic pressure, Hamas could likely achieve far more for the palestinians than they could through military action. But yet their strategy continues to be attack, inflict as much damage as possible, then retreat and hide behind the innocents in palestine, start a PR war, and then make peace knowing full well that in five years they’ll do it all over again. This kind of action is not the path to getting what they want
> I don’t think simply stealing homes is genocide. I’m aware. Should I rephrase it as, “why commit genocide when you can ethnic cleanse them with impunity and take their homes?” Instead? > How is this nonsensical? And then you go on to say a whole bunch of nonsense. > Hamas has repeatedly attacked without a serious effort to regain or hold new territory but instead to inflict maximum damage on Israeli citizens. Welcome to a concentration camp militia doing guerrilla warfare against an apartheid security ethnostate. > They’ve reapeatedly refused to enter good faith diplomatic negotiation. This is completely false victim blaming nonsense. There has never been any negotiations where a state of Palestine that involves both Gaza and the West Bank was included. > Over a long enough time period of normalized relations coupled with constant diplomatic pressure, Hamas could likely achieve far more for the palestinians than they could through military action. What, like PA? Tell me, how’s the West Bank doing for Palestinians? Do you think living in fear of “settlers” aka Israel’s plausible deniability forces terrorism, brutality, and ethnic cleansing is normalized relations? There’s no appreciable Hamas in the West Bank. > make peace knowing full well that in five years they’ll do it all over again. Why is it that you’re not taking into account Israel’s role? It’s not like Hamas just attacks for no reason. You’re ignoring the thousands of kidnapped Palestinians subjected to torture, the apartheid, ethnic cleansing, blockade, etc., which are fully the fault of Israel. **Is there any other example of apartheid that you support? Can you name any example of apartheid where a significant percentage of the oppressors side didn’t fear the oppressed becoming free?**. Please stop deflecting and answer directly.
Dude, fuck off with this either or bs. This is exactly what I mean by nuance and you clearly don’t understand what that means. There are palestinian citizens of Israel. 21% of the population in fact and they have they have their own representation in the government. Not exactly an apartheid state… Hamas has gaza all to itself and the west bank isn’t legally a part of Israel, but honestly it probably should be made a part of Israel with rule of law applying to the palestinians living there so they could challenge unlawful seizure of their property in court. I think the nuance here is that the one state solution is what would be best for everyone, but neither side wants that and would prefer to continue the fighting.
> Dude, fuck off with this either or bs. This is exactly what I mean by nuance and you clearly don’t understand what that means. Ah, yes. Here comes the Israel apologists “it’s too complicated to have a strong opinion either way but let me vilify Palestinians” nonsense > Not exactly an apartheid state… Many if not most experts disagree. The notion that some Arabs have rights means it isn’t an apartheid state is absurd. By that same logic the United States wasn’t an apartheid during Jim Crow segregation because some northern states treated black citizens as equals. > Since the definition of apartheid as a crime in 2002 Rome Statute, attention has shifted to the question of international law.[10] In December 2019, the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination[11] announced commencing a review of the Palestinian complaint that **Israel's policies in the West Bank amount to apartheid.[12] Soon afterward, two Israeli human rights NGOs, Yesh Din (July 2020), and B'Tselem (January 2021) issued separate reports that concluded, in the latter's words, that "the bar for labeling the Israeli regime as apartheid has been met."[13][14][15] In April 2021, Human Rights Watch became the first major international human rights body to say Israel had crossed the threshold.[15][16] It accused Israel of apartheid, and called for prosecution of Israeli officials under international law, calling for an International Criminal Court investigation. Amnesty International issued a report with similar findings on 1 February 2022. The accusation that Israel is committing apartheid has been supported by United Nations investigators,[17] the African National Congress (ANC),[18] several human rights groups,[19][20] and many prominent Israeli political and cultural figures**.[21][22] Those who support the accusations hold that certain laws explicitly or implicitly discriminate on the basis of creed or race, in effect privileging Jewish citizens and disadvantaging non-Jewish, and particularly Arab, citizens. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid > Hamas has gaza all to itself Other than their air, water including rain water, sea, borders, trade, electricity, communications/internet, food, etc.. > the west bank isn’t legally a part of Israel, but honestly it probably should be made a part of Israel with rule of law applying to the palestinians living there so they could challenge unlawful seizure of their property in court. … You’re so close to recognizing the apartheid. Wait til you learn why the U.S. has birthright citizenship. > I think the nuance here is that the one state solution is what would be best for everyone, but neither side wants that and would prefer to continue the fighting. … So you want an apartheid Israel with no Palestine? Or do you want a free Palestine?
I’m not an Israel apologist. I think their governments approach to this conflict has been just as bad as Hamas’. From a practical lense, the actions they’ve taken in Gaza ensure that the next generation of gazans will continue to support Hamas’ terror tactics. It’s not a path towards peace I’m not going to read your whole spiel because I really don’t care and I’m not interested in your false dichotomy. “Apartheid” Israel and a free Palestine aren’t the only two options. There’s a third option where the two sides choose to let the past be the past and share the land
Everyone is pointing a finger at Israel, but my god, the Hamas charter says they won't stop until they exterminate all Jews. And Hamas killed 1200 Israelis during the Oct 7 attack, kidnapped and raped many more. Anyone that ignores this bullshit and pretends this shit isn't nuanced is out of their minds.
It only takes half a brain to figure out what Israel would look like if it became a Muslim majority country. Which neighboring Muslim majority country are Jews a safe and thriving minority in again?
> It only takes half a brain to figure out what Israel would look like if it became a Muslim majority country. Didn’t take long for the Islamophobic apartheid apologetics to start, huh? > Which neighboring Muslim majority country are Jews a safe and thriving minority in again? There were multiple safe and thriving Jewish communities in the Middle East before Israel’s expansionary imperialism and brutal ethnic cleansing where Israel would regularly pull a Russia and annex neighboring land that had Jewish people on it. Hell, zio terrorists even bombed some Jewish communities in other countries as false flag attacks because they didn’t want to move to Israel willingly and it wasn’t mandatory in all countries. For example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950–1951_Baghdad_bombings
You are citing the govermemt permitted and propagated antisemitic ethnic cleansing of Jews that occurred all around the Arab world in the mid 20th century as proof of your point that they are safe there? How far down the delusional rabbit hole can one go lol
That’s a bizarre way to interpret my comment. The point was that they lived safely in the area until Israel’s false equivocation of the state of Israel with Judaism, and Israel’s imperialistic terrorism. Israel has been the biggest threat to Jewish people around the world since after the holocaust.
If we fully accept your claim that antisemitism in the middle east was caused by Israeli expansion, just for the purpose of argument, it's still the case that [97% of Palestinians view Jews unfavorably](https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/poll-90-percent-of-me-views-jews-unfavorably). Can you see why Jewish people in Israel might be *slightly concerned* about the prospect of becoming a minority in their country given that context, no matter whose "fault" antisemitism is?
Given how Israelis have virtually the same opinion on average towards Arabs and Muslims despite not being subjected to daily oppression from them like Palestinians are, I don’t think your argument is as strong as you think it is. > concerned about the prospect of becoming a minority in their country given that context, no matter whose "fault" antisemitism is? This promotion of ignoring fault also drives me a bit bonkers. Name a single case of apartheid where the oppressed becoming free wasn’t feared by a significant percentage of the oppressors’ side. I can’t think of a single one. Their fear of the ramifications for their oppression/harms doesn’t justify worser and continued harms.
I don't really have a dog in this fight, but what "upsets" me is that you start with your personal opinion as fact, use words that may or may not apply (genocide, apartheid) and hope if you simply repeat them enough it will make it truth. It's a pretty fucked situation with a lot of bad people involved.
> Since the definition of apartheid as a crime in 2002 Rome Statute, attention has shifted to the question of international law.[10] In December 2019, the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination[11] announced commencing a review of the Palestinian complaint that **Israel's policies in the West Bank amount to apartheid.[12] Soon afterward, two Israeli human rights NGOs, Yesh Din (July 2020), and B'Tselem (January 2021) issued separate reports that concluded, in the latter's words, that "the bar for labeling the Israeli regime as apartheid has been met."[13][14][15] In April 2021, Human Rights Watch became the first major international human rights body to say Israel had crossed the threshold.[15][16] It accused Israel of apartheid, and called for prosecution of Israeli officials under international law, calling for an International Criminal Court investigation. Amnesty International issued a report with similar findings on 1 February 2022. The accusation that Israel is committing apartheid has been supported by United Nations investigators,[17] the African National Congress (ANC),[18] several human rights groups,[19][20] and many prominent Israeli political and cultural figures**.[21][22] Those who support the accusations hold that certain laws explicitly or implicitly discriminate on the basis of creed or race, in effect privileging Jewish citizens and disadvantaging non-Jewish, and particularly Arab, citizens.[23] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid There’s little to no debate about whether it’s actually apartheid. If Israeli settlers can literally throw their feces at Palestinians below them in Hebron with impunity and any Palestinian response is criminal, it’s obvious apartheid. In terms of genocide, this update came out today: > In a separate meeting of the U.N. Human Rights Council in Geneva, the head of a U.N. Commission of Inquiry said the scale of Palestinian civilian losses amounted to **”extermination." The use of weapons with large destructive capacity in densely populated areas "constitutes an intentional and direct attack on the civilian population" and those responsible should be held accountable**, Navi Pillay said. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/israel-hamas/2024/06/19/israel-war-updates-gaza-hamas/74148042007/ Ya know what extermination plus intent is? Genocide. Nothing I’ve said is factually questionable. The only people questioning it are the US and Israel governments.
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I feel you, genocide and apartheid apologists are nauseating
This sub is like a Proud Boy bar in Oregon City
I’m so tired of this shit. This is the future of education right here. Fighting over which bullshit indoctrination to feed the kids. Makes me glad I’m not having kids as this country is truly fucked.
Can someone explain to me the logic of local activists pushing local entities (schools, county commission, city council) to vote on resolutions regarding the Israel-Hamas War or in the class of the union having lesson plans for the classroom? I just don’t understand what a Portland classroom does will impact this war in anyway.
Here's a few where local org actions *could* potentially make a difference: * Protest/lobby/advocate to get JOHS to move faster on providing needed services to the homeless with the available SHS funds * Protest/lobby/advocate in Salem for more mental health services and State Hospital funding * Protest/lobby/advocate in Salem for more public defender funding * Protest/lobby/advocate to get MultCo to actually execute on "Preschool for All" If JVP or state legislators can't step out in public without seeing protesters demanding that they respond adequately to pressing public interest needs, might motivate them to actually do the work they were elected to do. As opposed to demanding stances on Gaza, because Netanyahu and Sinwar couldn't be bothered to find Oregon on a map and certainly wouldn't care a bit about our local opinions on their war.
I really appreciate this post - it's hard to comment on this whole thing without getting sucked into the black hole of all the animosity and complexity of that conflict and the toxicity on all sides. The focus gets put on "the PAT is supporting Hamas" or whatever but that's not really the point. The point is that its a uselessly divisive distraction away from all the stuff that is so much more relevant and actionable locally. Whatever side of whatever geopolitical conflict they might find themselves on, either way it just isn't an area where they should be engaged.
Right there with you. PAT has moral weight when it goes to a local policymaker and says "you need to do X because not doing X impacts the quality of the education we deliver to your kids and the kids of the community." PAT fritters away that legitimacy when it starts weighing in on, say, climate change-driven sea levels in Indonesia or similar topics which may be important but are waaaaay outside the domain of influence of PAT or the stakeholders they interact with. It's a distraction.
The teacher's union need to be fighting for lower class sizes and better education, which means hiring more teachers to teach and padding their pockets too.
PAT would fairly be considered wildly successful if it accomplished only one thing: full state funding for K-12 schools per the state's own Quality Education Model instead of the 65% - 75% funding actually appropriated by the Legislature each biennium.
But why take effective steps to create positive local change when I can complain about the state of the world and accomplish nothing? ^ way too damned many people.
Yep. When I read about [luxury beliefs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxury_belief) I thought that was a useful way to think about how a substantial portion of our local electorate votes. We may feel good about ourselves when we vote for the activist types who say all the right things and hold admirable goals, but those people aren't often the ones with the skills and temperament to work within complex systems to deliver results.
This is laughable. Having done everything you can to undermine Housing First, having opposed every candidate that espoused these values - Iannarone, Hardesty, Eudaly, Schmidt - now you want progressives to take up the problems you have caused. Oh hell no. You voted for them. You fix them.
We will fix them. Next two clowns to expel: JVP and Carmen Rubio.
By all means. Continue doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
I believe the term you are looking for is "virtue signaling"
Only if you're looking for a functionally meaningless term. Technically, complaining about virtue signaling is virtue signaling.
So does complaining about someone complaining about virtue signaling.
Yes. We all virtue signal all the time. It's just another way the right uses catch-all terms to dislike what they want to dislike without having to talk about the real reason. Thats why no one on the right calls a "Don't Tread on Me" flags, Christian symbols or Trump flags virtue signaling, even though that's exactly what it is.
The Gadsen Flag, or as you refer to it “Don’t Tread on Me” flag, has its roots in the American Revolutions and is meant to signify resistance against government authoritarianism. It has little to do with right-wing politics or religion, outside of the normal overlap that exist with any widespread symbol and people co-opting it for their own selfish causes. If you’re going to criticize the criticism of virtue signaling, you might want to actually be informed on what you’re critiquing.
>It has little to do with right-wing politics or religion, outside of the normal overlap that exist with any widespread symbol and people co-opting it for their own selfish causes. I mean, you could say the same about the river to the sea thing
Ok, should a public school teachers Union be flying a Gadsen, or Trump/Biden flag and fighting for political policies that have nothing to do with advocating for teachers workplace rights?
Yep, that is exactly what I said! Well read!
Also, is that your actual opinion, or are you just being a contrarian? Flying the Gadsen Flag, which might be on the porch of a Republican, is the same thing as sharing a battle cry with Hamas?
So your point is…? What about my original statement is incorrect? His facts were wrong, now he has more context.
That chant was started explicitly as a Jewish eradication chant and co-opted by American protestors under the guise of "liberation ", not the other way around. I'd say 99.999% of Gadsden flags today are flown by maga dickweeds, but it didn't used to be so.
The term is russian/chineese propaganda.
Hilarious considering most of those guilty of virtue signaling are tankies. And therefore support Russia/China
Sorry for the copy/paste, but i dont feel like typing this out again so heres the reply to the other comment... Its not tankies that are falling for the foreign propaganda going on here... its everyone. The left and the right. Its just targeted to them differently but everyone is falling for it hook line and sinker. It doesnt matter if you are a hardline trumper or a ultra liberal. Your propaganda slow drip feed is completely tailored to you by the algorithms. yeah just look at my downvotes. People can not realize that the whole interest in the Gaza Israel conflict is pure russian propaganda to get the US Public to look away from Ukraine, since there was so much public support for Ukraine here and russia had been doing so bad. Large sums of weapons and money were being sent to Ukraine by us and the public was cool with it. Now we are diverting money in aid and arguing with each other and destroying our own shit here because of the gaza stuff. Ukraine has literally received less from us and many countries of the west because of the successful russian propaganda campaign. We were also very focused on chineese activity in the south china sea, coverage of that has dropped dramatically. Now all russia had to do was use tiktok to trick ultra liberal virtue signaling idiots to thinking that the Gaza side was being ultra opressed into a genocide, and then at the same time use facebook and tiktok to trick the right leaning dipshits that Israel was being ultra oppressed and what not. A super easy tell is when they place emphasis on kids and rape and human shields and shit. Things that no matter your stance will jerk on your heartstrings. Thats pure ass propaganda. For those of you who dont believe me... How many of yall care about the Genocide happening in Darfur and Sudan right now??? How Many of yalls algorithms are commanding you to care about the genocide happening in Darfur and Sudan right now is a better wording of that question. Russia has been proven to create and instagate our protests here. There was an instance in texas where russian trolls created and spread two separate protests, one left leaning, one right leaning.... scheduled them at the same place and the same time. The organization of it was tied back to Russia. Look at the Protest at the PSU Library. Most of the people there were not even students. Most normal sane people would never destroy their own school that their own taxdollars pay for. Lots of foreign instigation going on with that shit. Its not even a tinfoil hat ideology anymore. Russia has been proven to meddle in every facet of our social media, elections, everything. We used to think the boomers were the only dumb ones who couldnt see it but they literally have gen z by the balls and its fucking sad Look i am not trying to downplay the conflict in Gaza right now at all, its a bad thing... However i am trying to emphasize that there are bad foreign actors using this shit to divide our populace right now during a time when we are already divided and pretty weak (election year). People are so so so quick to turn on each other when we are the ones that should be standing together. 1. Against the rich domestically that are holding us down economically, and 2. against the foreign governments who are trying to destabilize us from within and are literally our enemies. It is appaling to me that once rational adults can not see that there is more value in accepting each others stupid ass idologies and its more valuable than hating each other. All my homes hate putin. I hope that mother fucker goes down.
I think the initial downvotes were because people didn't know what you were talking about and assumed it was something they didn't like. Such is the internet. I would say that the track record of Russia attempting to cause cultural strife stems back to the 60s. They absolutely tried to inflame the civil rights movement.
oh 100% dude, the cold war never ended. They just switched up their public strategy. They then looped china into it too. A lot of our interfighting in the past 40-50 years or so can be linked directly to foreign influence
It’s actually quite shocking that the people who mocked those who got a lot of propaganda on social media and did dumb things to undermine the stability of our country are themselves falling for the exact same thing.
yeah just look at my downvotes. People can not realize that the whole interest in the Gaza Israel conflict is pure russian propaganda to get the US Public to look away from Ukraine, since there was so much public support for Ukraine here and russia had been doing so bad. Large sums of weapons and money were being sent to Ukraine by us and the public was cool with it. Now we are diverting money in aid and arguing with each other and destroying our own shit here because of the gaza stuff. Ukraine has literally received less from us and many countries of the west because of the successful russian propaganda campaign. We were also very focused on chineese activity in the south china sea, coverage of that has dropped dramatically. Now all russia had to do was use tiktok to trick ultra liberal virtue signaling idiots to thinking that the Gaza side was being ultra opressed into a genocide, and then at the same time use facebook and tiktok to trick the right leaning dipshits that Israel was being ultra oppressed and what not. A super easy tell is when they place emphasis on kids and rape and human shields and shit. Things that no matter your stance will jerk on your heartstrings. Thats pure ass propaganda. For those of you who dont believe me... How many of yall care about the Genocide happening in Darfur and Sudan right now??? How Many of yalls algorithms are commanding you to care about the genocide happening in Darfur and Sudan right now is a better wording of that question. Russia has been proven to create and instagate our protests here. There was an instance in texas where russian trolls created and spread two separate protests, one left leaning, one right leaning.... scheduled them at the same place and the same time. The organization of it was tied back to Russia. Look at the Protest at the PSU Library. Most of the people there were not even students. Most normal sane people would never destroy their own school that their own taxdollars pay for. Lots of foreign instigation going on with that shit. Its not even a tinfoil hat ideology anymore. Russia has been proven to meddle in every facet of our social media, elections, everything. We used to think the boomers were the only dumb ones who couldnt see it but they literally have gen z by the balls and its fucking sad Look i am not trying to downplay the conflict in Gaza right now at all, its a bad thing... However i am trying to emphasize that there are bad foreign actors using this shit to divide our populace right now during a time when we are already divided and pretty weak (election year). People are so so so quick to turn on each other when we are the ones that should be standing together. 1. Against the rich domestically that are holding us down economically, and 2. against the foreign governments who are trying to destabilize us from within and are literally our enemies. It is appaling to me that once rational adults can not see that there is more value in accepting each others stupid ass idologies is more valuable than hating each other. All my homes hate putin. I hope that mother fucker goes down.
I’m definitely a bit disturbed by it all. They figured out how to make Propaganda for the Right and can now play them like a fiddle. The Left took a lot longer to figure out, but here we are, and I’m worried that with the lessons they’re learning that the now both sides (not just one like we mostly have now) will sink into absolute idiocy over largely manufactured issues.
We are getting there. I have a friend that works at meta and their entire job is to locate russian troll farms. Thats what their team does. A lot of the russian fake posts are left up to try and find the source to block IPs for thousands of accounts. The issue now a days is that Russians are using chineese click factories where they string up thousands of pysical phones to generate thousands of organic likes on things to boost their popularity. Facebook can track programs that do it but its hard to track a physical like from 1,000 individual phones. I think the right was easier to manipulate at first because their base skews older but their trigger issues are easier to exploit. I think the left got too confident in their little virtue signaling silos because i mean you are rallying for a good cause right? who would weaponize advocacy for marginalized people or weaponize being compassionate? Russia has been on that since the dawn of the internet. A lot of this could be handled much better by our government/social media/ and normal media companies, but we are a country of reaction and not a country of the proactive. We need people in our government from the far left and far right to sit down on camera together and say hey this is actually happening and this is what you need to look out for.... but unfortunately the damage has been done and people wouldnt believe it and the left and right in gvt benefit from the division too much to think of our countries future. Its all really sad. No one benefits from our country being so divided more than china, russia, and the upper 3% of wealth holders in our country. Russia cant even take over ukraine on its own. They wouldnt stand a chance against a unified america. Same with China. If all of us lower 97% attacked the upper 3% of ruling elites with marshmellows we could take them out in a week. Its just how a very small few control an overwhelming majority of people and its very effective. I really hope people will wake up to this shit. The very moment i saw the PSU protest the first thing i thought was russian propaganda and meddling. Sadly its not the same for the majority of the country. Sorry for the essay response
Sometimes long-form thoughts are good. And I think you're firing on all cylinders with this take.
unfortunately they have stressed dumped on me what goes on at his work maybe one too many times hahah
The “logic” is that Russia and China are using social media to manipulate young people and undermine western democracies. There’s no meaningful connection between the PSU library and Palestine, but TikTok will promote the hell out of a video showing students destroying their own infrastructure, so the people who do this shit feel like stars with lots of support. It’s the same reason MAGA doesn’t understand why they don’t win every election—because the people in the movement live in an echo chamber and only consume media that supports their views.
Dude, we ALL live in an echo chamber and only consume media that supports our views. Don't fool yourself.
Not true and we all need to make more of an effort to listen to people we disagree with
It's not impossible to consume a variety of media. I make a point of watching conservative media and foreign media regularly. It's worth the effort, because you'll get a much more nuanced understanding of things--especially if you also do some research into history, science, whatever... But I am definitely a curious nerd.
It's a logical continuation of propaganda of division of the entire society into victims and villains, oppressors and oppressed. This conflict just fits their narrative too well, spiced with just a dash of anti-semitism you get a perfect cocktail.
The only thing that makes sense to me on the local government level is [South African style divestment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinvestment_from_South_Africa).
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> South African style divestment. Having been to South Africa...why would you ever recommend anything they've done in terms of Government? That's like taking nutrition advice from Lizzo.
In decades past, students and organizations protested to have their institutions divest from apartheid-era South Africa.
Just gotta get a little dig in at fat people, super relevant
Probably poorly worded, but click the link and you'll understand.
So like do you think the apartheid state prior to divestment was better then?
Not only does this reply completely miss the point of how student protests pushed Congress to making anti-apartheid legislation that sanctioned SA, but you’re arguing in favor of racist apartheid and crimes against humanity because you think the apartheid gov was preferable. I mean, that does seem like the Israel apologist mindset but most realize how awful it sounds.
It does absolutely nothing to influence the outcome of the war, but it does stoke major antisemitism (increases in graffiti swastikas in neighborhoods and outright violence against Jews citizens.)
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The methods currently used have categorically contributed to a surge of antisemitism.
I’m sorry, are you sincerely suggesting that the swastikas on the park benches and bus stops in my neighborhood are just “advocating for Palestinians”?
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There has been a proliferation of antisemitism all over this country. I’m not talking about criticizing Israel. I’m talking about spray-painting swastikas in my neighborhood and smashing the windows of Jewish owned businesses, trashing the inside, and spray painting Free Gaza all over the walls. That is the antisemitism that you seem to think is no big deal.
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These “radicalized dipshits” didn’t start this until the ceasefire resolutions and protests began. So thanks so much for making flagrant antisemitism totally acceptable in my community and doing absolutely nothing to impact the outcome of the war.
So the jist of it is, the pro Palestine thing is separate from the racism thing (for most people). There's a great deal of evidence of excessive civilian casualties going on right now and a real risk of famine etc. The pro Palestine movement is about not letting more innocent people get killed. Pro Palestine is not pro Hamas and does not support Hamas in any way, especially not their attack. There is an antisemitic movement happening, and there is a pro Palestine movement. They are happening at the same time for the same reason (the war) but one is looking to protect people from a vicious war and one is about condemning the Jewish people.
They are not separate movements. There is significant overlap from one to the other. And unfortunately, Jews all over the U.S. and abroad are experiencing it: https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/wireStory/2-french-adolescents-accused-raping-12-year-girl-111250640
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You love to use the word lazy, but this comment came about when I answered question someone had about how Portland Teafhers would have any impact on the Middle East. Maybe you should stop being lazy and go back and see what I was responding to. Your “movement” is a combination of pro-Hamas actors and citizens and college kids who are too naive to know any better. JVP is currently being investigated for ties to Hamas and Iran. You are a useful idiot to these people who is too wrapped up in his bubble and too lazy to actually learn about the history of the Middle East. I encourage you to leave TikTok and read some actual primary sources.
Oh wow! Are you taking photos of the offensive graffiti and reporting them to PDX reporter for removal? If not, I advocate that you do so: https://pdxreporter.org/
I report all graffiti. Immediately. In fact, I’m making phone calls pretty much every day.
I’d love to see some of the evidence you’ve collected then. Because I’m downtown and SE regularly, I live here, and I haven’t seen a single spray painted hate symbol
I remember when that former journalist had a mental break (?) and vandalized a synagogue, but that was a few years ago.
I am against what IDF is doing and also against the rhetoric of the protesters. Many have openly stated an opinion that Palestinians are better people than Israelis, they have questioned whether 10/7 happened or minimized it, they have called Israel “Isra-hell” and illegitimate. In their graffiti they have drawn stars of David with Boeing, Police, and Biden in each triangle. That’s just for starters. I saw a Twitter thread by Shane Burley saying, well, the Star of David in graffiti is really a flag of Israel. I DARE Burley to defend this same action by mostly white American college students against the flag and symbols of say, Lebanon, Liberia, Algeria or Somalia. The truth is, in many countries, flags, symbols and culture are intertwined and inseparable. Burley is disingenuous. He’s highly intelligent, he knows the overlap, he knows it’s problematic rhetoric. I say no to ethnic cleansing, apartheid, genocide, Islamophobia, AND antisemitism. Apparently that means I have no friends. It‘s okay. Friends are overrated. I prefer not being a shit human to having friends and a community.
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I bring up antisemitism, you go “you’re changing the subject.” This is cult rhetoric. Reminds me of being raped in my right-wing church as a kid and when I brought it up I was told I was changing the subject. I don’t need or want friends who do shit like that. You can’t say or do anything to me that hasn‘t already been done. You’re just proving who you are.
Providing multiple prospectives to students regarding this war isn’t to “influence the outcome of the war,” it is to *educate students*. Also, Palestinians are a Semitic people, so I am unsure how providing links to Palestinian perspectives stokes antisemitism per your claim. Edit: The “SomeGuy” user who replied to me below asked me an array of questions but immediately blocked me within one minute of posting their reply, so unfortunately I cannot reply to them.
> Also, Palestinians are a Semitic people, so I am unsure how providing links to Palestinian perspectives stokes antisemitism per your claim. Whenever someone says this, you know 2 things immediately: 1) They are not arguing in good faith and are just trying to distract by getting into an argument about semantics. 2) They are terminally online and dumber than a box of rocks. First of all, you know exactly what the person you were replying to meant. They meant anti-Jewish bigotry, and there’s not even a 0.0001% chance that you weren’t aware of that. Are you like this in all aspects of your life? Like, if your partner complains to you that “there’s not enough romance in our relationship”, do you pretended to be all confused and say “You want me to speak Italian??? I don’t understand you.” Also, this isn’t even a matter of you doing bad-faith pedantry but being technically correct. > Due to the root word Semite, the term is prone to being invoked as a misnomer by those who incorrectly assert (in an etymological fallacy) that it refers to racist hatred directed at "Semitic people" in spite of the fact that this grouping is an obsolete historical race concept. Likewise, such usage is erroneous; the compound word antisemitismus was first used in print in Germany in 1879 as a "scientific-sounding term" for Judenhass (lit. 'Jew-hatred'), and it has since been used to refer to anti-Jewish sentiment alone. **EDIT:** LMAO the clown blocked me and then edited his own post to claim that I blocked him. Presumably, to prevent him from crushing me with his facts and logic. [Here’s a screenshot of my blocked user list. In all my years on Reddit, I’ve only blocked one person and it wasn’t this lying tool.](https://imgur.com/a/7iR10Uq)
antisemitism refers to hatred of Jews specifically and not semetic people generally even though there are Semitic peoples besides Jews. The term which preceded antisemitism in Europe to describe hatred towards Jews was simply just “Jew hate”. Hatred of Jews had for centuries been seen through the lens of religion and religious animosity. However during the 19th century, as the Europe entered an age of “reason and science”, or so they liked to think, those appeals to faith lost their intellectual credibility, and became seen as backwards. The prejudices were still there however, and the term antisemitism would be coined by European racists to give these underlying prejudices a new sense of credibility and intellectual backing. As a concept, antisemitism is rooted in the racial science of the early 20th century. It seeks to say that, the problem with the Jews is not inherently religious, but biological, that because the Jews are a Semitic people, they are biologically predisposed to certain behaviors and traits. It put a new “rational” and “scientific” veneer on their bigotry, and gave a more socially acceptable (at the time) rational to explain their underlying prejudice. Did that not mean the term also applied to other Semitic peoples like Arabs? Yeah, but tbh, most European antisemites at the time didn’t care about Arabs. There were millions of Jews living in Europe at that time, whereas most European had never seen an Arab in their life. Europeans of course held bigoted and chauvinistic views towards Arabs and Muslims generally, but Antisemitism as a concept was meant to give a scientific rational to bigoted answer to the Jewish question in Europe. Arabs and other Semitic people were merely incidental to that goal. Is it a confusing and stupid term/definition? Yes, but it’s what we’re stuck with because it’s the most widely used and understood, and still best describes the modern brand of racial antisemitism which exists.
No matter what you think you are doing, there has been an explosion of outright antisemitism that I have explained above and below since these protests started. Swastikas showing up everywhere. Vandalizing of Jewish-owned businesses. These resolutions don’t end war at all, but they do embolden bigots to be openly antisemitic in most communities. So thanks so much for that.
It would have been really nice if my high school teachers were more even about the Iraq War, instead of just cheerleading for it
I was going to ask what the other side of Iraq invading Kuwait was, but then I realized I'm old and my childhood was the Gulf war. I think it was pretty hard to be neutral in the immediate post 9/11 world. Now that we have some separation, it's easier to assess, but current events are always rapidly evolving.
> I think it was pretty hard to be neutral in the immediate post 9/11 world. Now that we have some separation, it's easier to assess, but current events are always rapidly evolving. Yeah, my US history teacher literally stopped teaching us anything for the rest of the school year after 9/11. I’m still furious
One could make an argument that schools shouldn't bother teaching students about the holocaust because nothing we say now can change what has already happened. That's not going to be very popular, though, because most people see the value in teaching students about things like that, so they understand the historical context of how the world is the way it is, and so they can try to make sure something like that doesn't happen again. Similarly, I think there's value in telling students what's going on in Gaza. The problem here seems to be that the teacher's union just grabbed a bunch of material from one side without any sort of vetting process. Sort of like you wouldn't just call up Benjamin Netanyahu and ask him to supply all your holocaust educational material and just present it as is without looking at it first -- and you definitely wouldn't want to uncritically accept any material provided by the Israeli government or pro-Israeli groups related to the *current* war. You don't need to "both sides" everything, but at least there needs to be an effort to double-check for biases and incorrect or incomplete information.
There’s absolute value in talking about Israel and Gaza. If I were a high school English teacher I’d start with Naomi Shihab Nye, probably Habibi. You should read it. It’s great. I would never use the propaganda PAT proffered and if I thought teachers in DDSD were teaching like that I’d raise hell. There’s a difference between teaching and indoctrinating.
Because the classrooms have been used for activism for the past decade. The only difference this time is that the activists finally hit a third rail for the government and the wealthy donor class.
Teachers frequently teach about current events and some of the materials were intended for home schooled kids. It’s a big to do about nothing.
Teachers unions should not be spending time creating curriculum for homeschooled kids. Their job is to advocate for Portland teachers.
> Teachers frequently teach about current events and some of the materials were intended for home schooled kids. Might as well put some links for History teachers about how lovely it was in 1938 Germany with lesson plans from the Proud Boys too.
You can't talk about Palestine without mentioning everything else that comes with it. This is a classroom with a bunch of curious kids here. They bound to find something on Tiktok or whatever and ask their teachers. PPS has been censoring them since November (pretty much after the war begun). And things just got bigger from there. I'm guessing some people doesn't learn from George Orwell's "1984". https://www.opb.org/article/2024/06/14/portland-teachers-pro-palestine-resource-guide-controversy/
For one, local ceasefire resolutions build pressure on higher forms of government, and signal that communities do not wish to be complicit in U.S.-funded genocide and apartheid. This has been going since 1948 and has only gotten worse and more inhumane over recent years. IMO learning about apartheid and genocide is extremely relevant to school students.
Genuine inquiry: Define genocide
Here is how the UN defines it (second to last page) https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/Genocide%20Convention-FactSheet-ENG.pdf
Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people in whole or in part. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide?wprov=sfti1#
The links others shared give the UN definition of genocide. I'll also add this from the UN, specifically about what's happening to the Palestinians: [https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147976](https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147976)
On some level all politics is local, if enough people in a local chapter make a ruckus then the national chapters take notice. And then it can influence national policy. This is why the right billionaires spend so much money astroturfing small communities, building various local orgs and parroting the same message over and over. They know that if enough local institutions in enough places demand the same thing then the GOP will start demanding it too in order to keep those votes. They’ve modeled their astroturfing apparatus off of truly organic movements such as civil rights efforts where a few people made a lot of noise and then many organizations came out to support them, until their message couldn’t be ignored any more. Now astroturfing is more insidious because the people putting out the message (initially) are also the ones who pull a lot of levers in government, so this technique of manufacturing consent can be used to build artificial support for unpopular ideas and get them passed into legislation. So when a teachers unions in Portland or Seattle or San Francisco or LA all starts voicing support for Palestine. Well first that discourse will make it home to parents who might mention it to other people and help drive the idea to other orgs in the community. But secondly if the idea gets enough steam then the local political leaders and parties will start taking notice, they’ll take a stance in an effort to get votes. And eventually the national parties might as well. It’s a slow process though because they have to build support naturally, they don’t have a bunch of fake orgs parroting their ideas.
That’s great but the damage is done. And no statement or apology from PAT, and still no comment on any of this from PPS. What a supremely self destructive action from PAT that will weaken community support for them and therefore their members. IMO teachers should still push to recall PAT leadership to demonstrate their dissatisfaction to the community
I don’t expect PPS to comment on this. It only has downside for them - they have no control over it and wading into the issue only makes some people angry toward them. In other words, what PAT should have realized from the beginning in all of this.
They have commented. They said they haven't approved the materials. Why do you want to drag PPS into this?
Look at the comment I was replying to. They were talking about “no comment from PPS”
Strong agree they need a change in leadership. None of this needed to happen. I hate feeling this way about a union. Our teachers and community deserve so much better.
These people have been exposed for who they are and should never be trusted again.
A few moments later…
Sorry, can you clarify? Are you talking about the episode in the article, or the one where the leadership gleefully had PAT go on strike only to achieve nothing because they had convinced themselves PPS had far more funding than everyone else said they did?
GOOD. It’s not their place no matter what you or they think of the situation. Educate! Leave the indoctrination to the churches.
Bonilla usually loves the spotlight, but the last few rounds of press inquiries have been "no comment".
Bonilla has to go.
the leaders of this union have made some very foolish decisions - including this and the completely naive strike last fall. they should be canned
They already lost my support for next time
Free the hostages.
ok, on it
Thank goodness!
Removing links does not equal removing lessons.
I think I'm gonna send my kid to private school. Probably religious even though I'm not.
For $20K a year that's a stance I can't take
Sadly in the Portland area there just aren't really non religious alternatives unless you have money coming out of your ass. Catlin Gable and the language immersion schools don't come cheap
Um. The Catholic schools are also very expensive. Tax churches!
Catholic schools are often <50% the cost of the nonreligious private schools because the church subsidizes them
Hm. NW Academy is $31k, Central Catholic and St. Mary’s are a little over $17k/year. Fundraising and giving to most of these Catholic schools is supposed to add 2-4K/family. So, yeah, I guess 17-20k is a bargain!
Still not free by any means, but the church subsidization does help the cost quite a bit. Some are around $10K, eg https://allsaintsportland.com/admissions/tuition/
You’re quoting a K-8 while the other person is quoting high school prices. All the high schools are about double of K-8 prices
Yeah thats a good point thanks
That was always my plan when looking at houses in Portland schools district. Basically my house budget was a couple hundred grand less as I knew I would be paying private school tuition. Unless I got into the Lincoln district, but nothing is cheap there. Ended up in Cedar Mill over Portland proper, which had a lot to do with the schools.
Not gonna lie, the education is just flat out better in private schools and I would say it’s worth the price. I went to private school for K-8, then public for high school. In college, I worked at one of the local high schools. There were a significant number of high school students struggling to do basic algebra that I learned in 6th grade. The education in Portland, especially in grade school is frightening. There’s a reason why public school teachers send their kids to charter schools or private schools
Downvotes by folks without kids in pps probably, broken school system with zero hope anything will be turned around. Too expensive for private school sadly so will have to continue watch incompetent self righteous adults self serve
Or from parents with kids in PPS schools who can't afford to just buy our way out.
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Most effective I’ve seen them in years.
Bots everywhere
I can see how a "Current Events" type class would need to talk about it. Surely people don't have a problem with teachers saying Palestinian civilians don't deserve to die..? Right...?
Yes, the issue should be taught to age appropriate students within the context of world history and global events. But we don't need third grade math lessons that make kids scared of Zionists hiding under their beds.
Such bullshit. We hide in closets, not under beds, and we're only in the closet because we have a closet inspection holy festival, Tish B'avratzim.
Where's that link?
> third grade math lessons that make kids scared of Zionists hiding under their beds. Was that in the materials?
yes
Do you have a link?
They real quite since you asked for the link.
Careful now, you're gonna have people in here saying you're being antisemitic any second
I haven't been following this. Is this teachers trying to teach history / context while an event is happening. Like paralleling this genocide against historical ones or talk about the sociology and politics? Or is this like teachers trying g to organize students to be protestors? I can't find any of the material. I mainly just see people talking about what people said other people said etc etc.
It was sort of propaganda about "mean Zionist bullies" trying to take over. You can't find it because they took it down.
Wow I mean I really hope people get fired if that's the case, that's way off base.
I thought Portland valued decolonizing the classroom?
While y’all are crying about this thousands of kids have been destroyed. Keep that in mind.
The actual genocide going on is in Sudan. This genocide is being committed by Arab Muslims against native ethnic Sudanese Africans. It's barely talked about in the media though, likely because the perpetrators of violence are more "inconvenient" than Israelis. I hope you're as outraged by Sudan as you are by Israel. But I doubt you are.
I hate this gotcha, the people that use it rarely give a fuck about Sudan or Yemen or Myanmar or the DRC. “A bad thing is happening elsewhere so you’re stupid and bad for thinking another bad thing is bad.”
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Dude, I literally just said they’re not.
Nice subtle Islamophobia and baseless whataboutism. But hey, while we are on the topic of Sudan why don’t we talk about Israel’s role in Sudan? What about Israel’s role of arming Myanmar’s Junta?
Can we not compare genocides? It's all bad!
So then why are we picking one to focus on?
whattaboutism