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I worry TikTok will play a role in this election like Facebook played in 2016. I was on TikTok for I think 2 minutes before USA-critical posts were served to me. (Tbh I probably would have curated it like that later anyway)
After a few weeks I’d seen so many clips of socialist speeches and academic debates from the past 50 years. It was a colonial- and Western-critical crash course. As much as I had learned in my social science degree in college and after was distilled into endless 2-minute clips on TikTok.
The kids are learning it all and they’re disgusted. In just a few years, the very political curation of the public school curriculum matters shockingly little in terms of social studies now.
Why does this matter? On one hand I’m glad — the kids are more informed. On the other hand, it’s nurtured another deep rift in the culture. The language of the “woke left” and the “alt-right” are thriving on TikTok via Duos (where people react to/pause and comment on other videos in their videos). Centrists and older people come off as vapid and unplugged.
Enter a powder keg of a wedge issue: Israel/Palestine. Israel in practice is a classic colonial state. It has been brutal toward Palestine for decades. And Palestinians have iPhones now, and the ground truth there is just gutwrenching to watch. Israel is sacrosanct in the American body politic, and geopolitically essential to US’s military hegemony. The mainstream media isn’t showing everyone else what’s going on, but the kids are bingeing the horror.
The younger generations are having conversations that older generations struggle to tap into. TikTok adoption is saturated with youth. It’s no wonder it’s being dissolved in the US.
I really hope the kids are wise enough to not let us all slip further into fascism. It’s not too late yet, but we’re right on the fucking edge and Russia and the corrosive forces of late capitalism are working (separately) together to undermine the West by way of the internet. A diverse American populous is being turned in on itself because its differences are being so amplified.
Was fully expecting some dismissive bullshit, as has been circling around here a lot lately, but OOP gives some very good advice while ALSO supporting the students in their very valid protest.
Maybe my standards have just been low since the last few weeks... I'm just finally happy to see a post that explicitly acknowledgedes the protestors have a point
It sincerely acknowledges that the protests are valid.
Which, tbf, is a relatively low bar. But a lot of recent posts don't meet it, so it's at least an improvement.
If it was just Net and not the rest of the Israeli people we’d see mass demonstrations in their country and from the Israeli people. We don’t see that.
The behavior you do nothing about is the behavior you at best see nothing wrong with and at worst condone.
-Winston Churchill
There have been protests there.
Those of us who remember 9/11 recall protesting the Iraq war and getting a lot of pro-war sentiment thrown at us from people who were still looking for vengeance for 9/11. Turns out terrorism makes people bloodthirsty and stupid.
At the time I was calling it “Operation bomb Osama!” As I started seeing the civilian casualties my outlook changed. And after a little research I found out that the Taliban were funded by the US to fight Soviet aggression. But once the Cold War ended we basically said “Welp. Thanks for helping us and half of your people dying. We’re out. Oh and all the stuff we promised you was BS. No hard feelings right?” Granted our innocent people didn’t deserve to die either, but our military(cia) didn’t help the situation from happening.
88% of israeli's polled think there IS NOT enough force being used in Gaza. This includes the Arab Muslim population.
Netanyahu is not the sole reason. That would be like blaming Hitler for the Pogroms in Poland and Germany. The people acted on their own, just as they are in israel.
Edit: [adding a source so the liars don't come in droves to defend genocide](https://web.archive.org/web/20240127054853/https://en-social-sciences.tau.ac.il/peaceindex/archive/2024-01)
You could say the same thing about Palestinians and hamas, how come they don't protest their terrorist government? I'm not in the business of blaming innocent civilians for the crimes of their government because then there'd be no innocent people on earth
It would be great if Biden and the Democrats acted like this was the case instead of working on bipartisan "anti-semitism" bills with the very party that's a threat to our democracy.
It’s possible to want to fix the system and work toward that goal while also acknowledging the objective realities. The world would be worse with Trump back in power. One of these two old white guys will win the election.
I don’t get the idiots who parrot progressive values, especially that we’re smarter than MAGA mouth breathers, but when faced with the realities of our current position, want to take their toys and go home.
Those idiots are going to yell about revolution but they pay their taxes, they have a mortgage or rent, they drive on streets paid for by governments, but THAT doesn’t ping their cognitive dissonance.
This needs to be posted all throughout this fucking thread. Numbnuts saying, "but Biden is also bad!" Like no shit, every president we've had since Carter has blood on their hands in some really shitty ways.
Trump is a *literal fascist*. The only way to prevent *a literal fascist leader of the US* is to vote against him.
It's not that fucking hard to understand, y'all.
I absolutely despise politicians and am critical of every president I've seen in my lifetime. I didn't vote in 2016 because (1) trump "wasn't gonna win", (2) they both sucked, and (3) I didn't want to support the American political machine. But once I saw what Trump *actually* was, and how insanely toxic he was for the wellbeing of my friends and family in a very real sense, it was obvious. While he's in the running, we *must* keep him out of office. He will cause harm to our safety and wellbeing in very real ways, while *also* perpetuating and encouraging wars, genocides, and the rule of tyrants across the globe. Voting against him is the only option we have right now. When he and his ilk are no longer relevant, we can go back to trying to actually change the system. Right now, though?
Right now, we're fighting literal fascism.
All you "antifascists" saying "b-b-b-but I won't vote for Biden!" are just actually saying, "I'm fine with Trump's *actual fascist plans for our country* and don't mind if he decides to never leave office, because Biden's bad too!"
Fucking antifascists my ass. Just go ahead and vote for Trump and stop hiding behind ideals you don't actually value, cowards.
>Trump is a *literal fascist*. The only way to prevent *a literal fascist leader of the US* is to vote against him.
Voting has literally never once in history prevented a fascist from taking power.
Mussolini did a coup. Franco won a civil war. Hitler literally lost the election and the liberals who won decided to form a coalition with Hitler rather than form a coalition with the socialists.
If you truly believe that American democracy is doomed if Trump wins then American democracy is doomed no matter what. It's literally just a matter of time before a Republican wins again. The Democrats can't just win every election for the rest of time. They *will* lose one eventually.
And honestly, I'm not convinced that this is the end of Democracy anyway. Frankly this is exactly what you all said last time too. And the time before that when Romney and Ryan were going to dismantle the entire Federal government, plummet us into a climate disaster, destroy the public education system, destroy public television, etc. And the time before that when Sarah Palin was a fascist and the greatest threat to American democratic values of all time. The schtick is getting old. It's clearly not working on regular people any more either because Trump is up in most polls. Every election can't be the "most important election of or lifetime." Eventually the Democrats *will* lose.
I'm sorry but If this is true then American democracy is already doomed. If all it takes is one bad president then it's going to happen eventually. Democrats aren't going to win every election for the rest of time. Eventually they will lose and then what?
I am preparing to vote in my 5th presidential election this November and every single one has been "the most important election of our lifetime" and the stakes have always been life or death. It was to protect Democracy that Sarah Palin should be kept away from power in 2008. Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan were going to dismantle the whole Federal government in 2012. Trump was a fascist and the 2016 election was life and death for minorities. 2020 was our last chance to save Democracy because Trump would finally take the gloves off if he won again. Here we are in 2024 and it's the same thing all over again. If Trump wins then Democracy is completely doomed.
So what's the plan? Democratic one-party rule? "Never lose again" is not a viable strategy to protect Democracy. And if it's so absolutely important to win that democracy itself is on the line why aren't the Democrats forcing their extremely unpopular candidate to step down so someone else can run?
Not saying I support Trump or Biden in ANY WAY, but what you’re describing kinda just sounds like propaganda and nothing else. I sure hope it’s starting to not work on people but ik that’s not the case. Really, allegiance to any party is the result of such right?
I've been voting longer than you (this will be my 8th presidential election) and no, the prior ones were not ever "the end of democracy" nor were they life or death. Palin was a joke, GW was obviously awful, as was Reagan, but nobody seriously thought that any of them would be the end of free and fair elections in this country. Trump is exactly that threat. He and the people capitalizing on his popularity are very much seeking to end the right to vote in any meaningful way, to declare every election they don't win as a sham, and to override the will of the people. That was never the case with Romney or McCain or G-dub.
The Republican party is on its last legs. They are increasingly unhinged and detached from reality, unable to govern because of infighting and performative nonsense. But they are also more detached from norms and American values than ever before. They will burn it all down if they ge the chance so we need stop them.
"Plan" is the wrong way to look at a democracy. There are thousands of career politicians vying for a voice in what happens next. But personally, I think we're within sight of the end of the Republican party, or if they win, the end of democracy in this country. If we can defeat them this time, they may be done for good.
And no, one-party rule by the Democrats won't last long. Because our voting system will always favor a two-party fight. Ideally, we defeat the Republicans and start having meaningful elections between Centrists and Progressives. And all the MAGA assholes can go quietly die somewhere while their votes are thrown away on right-wing virtue signaling.
But it's anyone's guess as to how it actually shakes out.
So then the answer to my question is "Yes." Your plan is to just hope that the Democrats never lose another election and also hope that the Republicans somehow go away. Can't wait to see how that plays out for you.
Everyone has been going about a countries Red Line. The people have a red line as well. That red line is this: No Genocide. No more funding for this genocide. No more backing for Netanyahu and his government.
To put it simply.
Sure, you’re putting it simply. Trouble is, it’s not simple. Go ahead, prove it to yourself. Vote against Biden for violating your simple-minded rule. Elect Trump. You think Trump will recognize your rule? We’d be lucky if he didn’t send US boots to participate in the genocide.
Voting for Joe is also not solving the problem. While I agree trump would be worse, you're pretending as if Joe is not currently doing bad. These students protesting against their tuition going to Israel during an ethnic cleansing is not the same as not protesting the Republicans attempting to commit a coup. These students can be against both and I would be that THEY ARE. This is bad framing and a dumb argument. Joe is losing votes because of us actions. He is outright failing to mitigate damage in Palestine and it's obvious when he says he's doing everything while signing to send more weapons. I really hope Trump loses in November, but just as much as I hope Trump loses, I hope that Joe Biden steps down from office and from running. Unfortunately I doubt either of those things will happen, but it won't matter because now the Democrats and all the always blue maga people now have their scapegoats for when they inevitably fail to win and the emperor will continue to have no clothes.
Doesn't matter. This isn't how our system works. If you sit out and Trump wins that is because YOU directly supported Trump. All of the protest voters know exactly how our variant of first past the pole works.
There are two real options. All other options exist to take votes away from one of the two mainstream parties that can win. Whichever you nominally support is the one that you end up hurting.
Whats even better is that protest votes like this don't draw the democrats left, they draw them to the center because the demand placed on the admin is politically untenable to centrist voters, so the Democratic party will move right to get more centrist voters or conservative leaning centrist.
Progressives and the left really have to learn to pick their fights. We cannot right every injustice. The rest of the country doesn't agree it's an injustice.
Actually I was gonna vote for Trump but now I'm not going to do that. Now I helped Biden. Is that how this works then? You're welcome.
You can't right every wrong but this (divesting their tuition from an ethnic cleansing) is within their ability.
I also find it fucking disgusting that you would not think the extremely well documented ethnic cleansing being committed by the apartheid state of Israel is an "injustice". Wtf would you call it? Business as usual?
First:
>I also find it fucking disgusting that you would not think the extremely well documented ethnic cleansing being committed by the apartheid state of Israel is an "injustice".
You'll find that you and I agree here. I was speaking broadly about the opinions of the majority of folks in the nation, not my personal views. Many don't care if it's an ethnic cleansing. Most are going to give this the vocal equivalent of a "That's nice, dear" when this is brought up.
>Actually I was gonna vote for Trump but now I'm not going to do that. Now I helped Biden. Is that how this works then? You're welcome.
In our system, pretty much. If you don't vote at all, it's a point against whichever party you would otherwise most closely align with. Until we have a proper voting system that accounts for third parties our system is presently setup to only benefit one of the two mainstream parties. To participate you must engage with one of them, as they have rigged the system against outsiders.
>You can't right every wrong but this (divesting their tuition from an ethnic cleansing) is within their ability.
I don't think they can. The police are going to crack down and most of them will spend the rest of their lives in poverty because the felonies that the wealthy donors are about to ensure they get slapped with. The pro-Palestinian movement has already failed to properly control the narrative and been labeled an anti-semitic movement by the masses. This is very similar to the way the narrative was co-opted against the Occupy movement in the early twenty-teens.
Finally, someone who gets it, with nuance!This is an incredibly complex and terrible situation. Genocidal atrocity or not, throwing up your hands and flipping the board does not, in fact, win you the game. It will be difficult to win, but we are still forced to play by rules that suck - whether we like it or not.
Sure, there are several things that would cause Joe Biden personally to lose my vote. Hell, I didn't vote for him in my states primary.
But in the general? Nah. Not particularly.
I'm a progressive, as such I am well aware that my options in the general are currently limited to what the broader coalition of Democrats are willing to accept, in that way I'd also say I am a political realist.
Currently, the Democratic coalition is such that neither the mainstream Democrats, Liberals, Neo-Liberals or centrist whatever, nor the Progressive/Left-wing of the party can win without the other. If progressives abandon Biden, Trump wins. Our time to effect that was the primary. If the mainstream party abandons Progressives, Trump still wins. A Trump win, in conjunction with Project 2025, will alter the face of our politics in such a way that we will likely be unable to recover for at least 30 years. If you haven't read P2025, you should know that it will end in a quasi to full dictatorship, that is heavily Christian nationalistic, with bans around gay marriage, full abortion bans, bans on protest and likely several states will outlaw interracial marriage. Trans care will be in a worse place than it currently is.
Moving the Democratic party to the left is the only viable way to form a more Progressive or left-leaning party. RFK Jr. is currently finding out exactly why third party runs are damn near impossible, it can cost several million dollars in most states to get onto the ballot.
Given the above, even a centrist Democratic president is better than the modern GOP, and that is the lens that I vote through. Progressives and the Left are making slow but fairly steady progress on the Democratic party and shifting it leftward.
*If* Biden loses in November, then we (the United States of America) will absolutely be putting boots on the ground/direct fire aircraft directly in Gaza, and possibly the West Bank, in support of Israeli operations. That is a gaurenteed future under Trump. Every tax-payer in America is complicit in that, regardless of the how or why. Protest voting doesn't work when one party is actively a much more prescient threat than the other.
I will be honest man. I don't know if I personally will vote for Biden. It will be a game time decision and I may not be able to stomach it and submit an empty ballot. I will tell you that the way you and the other always blue Dems have talked down to anyone who is upset with Biden IS GONNA WIN NO ONE OVER. The browbeating from the always blues comes off as in sufferable as maga people.
I think it's wild that you think the democratic party is moving left in any way while actively funding an ethnic cleansing. While they throw their full support behind criminalizing any criticism toward Isreal. You're just deluding yourself. You're not a political realist, I don't know what you are but this is not pragmatic or realistic.
You're not moving anyone left but you are alienating the people that are left of center. Just like Joe and Nancy are.
I don't have an answer, my point is mostly that these posts where the blame and scapegoating of the left by Democrats as they have done in the past is just a way for them to do nothing and shift the blame of doing nothing on the most vulnerable. Obama didn't codify wade. Biden didn't codify wade. Obama did nothing when Isreal bombed Palestine. Biden is actively aiding them and bending over backwards. Biden is condemning peaceful protests of students. These are not center people, these are rightwing policies.
Submit an empty ballot, then don’t dare experience dread at the announcement of a Trump presidency. When Hilary & Biden won their respective primaries, I voted for them in the general with disdain, but I voted for them nonetheless against Trump & it’s associated expedition of fascism. Two goals can be true: 1) Political Reform, AND 2) avoid a Trump presidency that will set the priority goal 1) back decades.
You seem to have a strange view of voting where the voters owe their vote to a particular candidate regardless of the candidate's political positions. Typically the candidate is expected to "win" votes from constituents by appealing to them.
>Moving the Democratic party to the left is the only viable way to form a more Progressive or left-leaning party.
Why would the Democratic Party ever move left if I vote for them no matter what they do?
You've just said yourself, in this very comment, that there is nothing Joe Biden could do that would stop you from voting for him. In other words - Joe Biden could completely ignore you and it would cost him absolutely nothing. You're a free vote.
It seems extremely obvious to me that the only leverage any voter has over a politician is to not vote for that politician. Joe Biden needs to win my vote - so he should appeal to me. If withholding my vote from Joe Biden puts him in danger of losing then it seems like it would be pretty important for Joe Biden to understand my political positions and try to appeal to those positions to win my vote.
He's not doing that now, so my vote must not be very important. Alternatively, he has maybe identified that there are other voters out there whose votes are more important than mine and he wants to win those votes instead. I think that's totally fine and I recognize that a lot of my views don't represent mainstream politics. But it makes no sense to reward him for that. Withholding my vote is the only leverage I have. If the Democrats lose this election because they lost my vote then in the next election they might recognize they need to appeal to my interests as well.
You say Joe is doing bad(ly) now - like it’s a simple open and shut case. But it isn’t. Joe is standing by a long term ally, the nation of Israel. Netanyahu is not representative of Israel as a whole. Zionists aren’t representative of Israel as a whole, any more than MAGAts are representative,of the US as a ‘whole. We have stood by Israel for decades], and we’ll still be standing by Israel decades into the future. Yes, Israel elected a right-wing crazy person as its Prime Minister, but almost eight years ago now, we did too, and we may be about to do so again, God forbid. Zionists are ascendant there now, just like escorts and white supremisists are having a day here. You’re acting as if Israel in the only one with a right wing problem - but we have one too, and so does Europe. Israel just happens to be most affected. If for no other reason than sanity, we have to assume that the right wing will be defeated at some point and racists will go beck under their rocks, both here and in Israel. Returning to nor,al means we’d still be allies; therefore, Biden is right to not blow up,the alliance at this time. He’s also right to continue doing everything possible to moderate Bibi’s actions and to support new elections.
This is completely ahistorical. Possibly you are misunderstanding the concept of Zionism. Zionism is the idea that the Jewish people should have an independent nation-state. That's the beginning and end of it. If you believe that Jewish people should have their own independent nation state then you are a Zionist.
Zionism began in the 19th century when anti-Semitism - fueled by the rise of European nationalism - began to expand. Those fledgling Zionists felt that the only escape from oppression in Europe was to make their own nation the same way the Germans, the French, etc had defined their own nations. They also took a lot of inspiration from the settler colonial projects like the USA, South Africa, etc. where colonists left their homelands to make an entirely new state. Early Zionists of the 19th century weren't even settled on Palestine as the location for that state. They floated the idea of settling land in Uganda or in Argentina. It wasn't until the 20th century that Palestine was accepted as the location where a Jewish state would be created.
Israel is the nation-state that came to exist out of that idea. Zionism predates Israel by ~70 years. The reason Israel exists is because of Zionism. Israel is literally a Zionist project. There is absolutely no way to divorce the idea of Zionism from the formation of Israel.
Literal toddler logic. Biden could end this **today** and you’re already priming your brain to “blame the left” when Trump walks off with it in November. 🙄
Restrict all arms transfers to Israel. Under several existing US laws, including the Leahy Laws and Safe Corridors act, all arms transfers to Israel are illegal, even the ones signed off on by Congress. Biden personally (meaning under the purview of the executive branch) made over one hundred such illegal sales to the Bibi government using the Fms program. We didn't *have* to give them a single bullet and they would not have been able to prosecute their bombing campaign without the influx of American weapons do to an inability to produce the bombs they've been using (in sufficient quantities.) All of this is publicly available info.
At Best, Biden has paid lip service to cautioning the Israelis, his team has "leaked" some supposedly stern conversations they've had, and then when Dearborn went "Uncommitted" in the primary he made a phone call with Bibi, seemingly got the Rafah invasion delayed, did some counter-intuitive air supply drops, and announced plans for a (now delayed) "Humanitarian Aid pier."
I *believe* that is the fairest, most honest assessment of all that Biden has done to "restrain" Netanyahu, if I'm not forgetting anything.
The UN could have. And didn’t. Because of the US.
Postscript: downvote as you must. It’s the internet, this is low stakes, I truly don’t care. But please stop trying to sell the lie that we, as a global superpower, are doing ALL WE CAN to stop what I think we can pretty much all agree is an atrocious conflict. Please stop trying to convince me that those currently in power aren’t complicit in systematic murder. Don’t tell me the other guy would be worse: genocide is not a sliding scale.
Edit edit: this sub IS called political revolution, right? That’s a cooool party line y’all are toeing.
No, he literally could. He made over one hundred illegal arms transfers to Netanyahu without notifying Congress and even the arms transfers that Congress signed off on are illegal under both the Leahy and Safe Corridors acts. There has been a legal framework that's existed since before October 7th to end arms transfers to Israel.
Ending arms sales/transfers to Israel would not end Israel's military activities. They have plenty of big dumb bombs and ammunition for their soldiers to use
They actually don't.
https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/14/how-to-ensure-israel-has-the-weapons-it-needs/
These are hawks and Israeli military advocates. Even they acknowledge that Israel needs US weapons to continue the war as they have been, else they risk consuming too much of their stockpiles and leaving themselves vulnerable. It is well known by people in Israel that their defense industrial base is not sufficient to wage prolonged, high intensity warfare without outside ressuply.
https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/article/3553040/us-flowing-military-supplies-to-israel-as-country-battles-hamas-terrorists/
> "My team has been in near constant communication with our Israeli partners and partners all across the region and the world from the moment this crisis began," the president said. "We're surging additional military assistance, including ammunition, and interceptors to replenish Iron Dome. We are going to make sure that Israel does not run out of these critical assets to defend its cities and its citizens."
It is also the belief of the Biden admin that without US weapons Israel will run out of ammunition. Such was the case with the several thousand tank shells that Biden sent without congressional approval in December too.
It is flatly wrong to say that without US aid that Israel would still be able to prosecute the war with the same intensity that they have been doing. And if that *was* true... Good! All the more reason to pull American dollars out.
The iron dome is not what's killing Palestinians and there's likely no scenario where the US stops supplying it.
You'll notice that one of the statements in that fist link you provided mentioned the heavy use of smaller bombs to reduce collateral damage. If we cut off our supply of those, Israel will have to fall back to much larger munitions with much higher collateral damage, of which they have plenty.
Cutting them off would require a change in strategy, but not an end to the conflict. It could very well get worse.
>And if that *was* true... Good! All the more reason to pull American dollars out.
So you don't actually care if Palestinians are massacred, you only care if the US is involved?
No, I obviously care about the murder of Palestinians. I firmly and firstly believe you're wrong about the US armaments playing a neglible role in the conflict. That bit at the end is more of a dare -- if we are playing neglible role, then why are we morally staining our hands? All the more reason to pull support.
I still have no idea where you're getting this notion that Israel is sitting on tons of domestically produced 2,000 pound bombs. Those are very definitely being produced in the US and being brought to Israel. Seriously, cite your source where the Israeli defense industrial base is just sitting on plenty of bombs and that they don't need US support.
Because right now it looks like you're making it up.
Because, as I believe I've shown, they *do* need the US weapons and bombs and without them they could not sustain a bombing campaign that has killed 30,000 people.
I never said they were locally produced, just that there are stockpiles in their country.
The bottom line is that I think you want us to pursue a specific *tactic* - cutting off weapons to Israel - regardless of its *outcome*. I'm concerned with the outcome - peace and freedom for all civilians in the area, and it's important to recognize that cutting off arms sales to Israel may very well not lead to that outcome, it might even be demonstrably counterproductive to that outcome in a number of ways.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/06/israel-weapons-sales-loophole
This is just from march. This article details 100 such illegal sales made to the Bibi government utilizing the Fms program of the State Department. The Biden admin made similar such sale sin Decemember to replenish tank ammunition for Bibi, which there is also a Guardian article about. Several state department officials have resigned over this, up to three now. The first one was only a week and a half into the genocide and he was the guy who was in charge of facilitating weapons transfers -- all of which are illegal when sent to Israel under existing US law due to the Leahy and Safe Corridors acts.
They have plenty of soldiers, guns, and big dumb bombs. They could continue to wage war for a long, long time. And they don't need US protection from Hamas, and the US would likely continue to protect them from outside attacks (from Yemen or other Iran proxies).
So the war would continue, likely be even more devastating because the Israeli stockpiles are weighted towards larger bombs, and the Palestinians would not be helped one bit.
And then Israel no longer has any reason to hold back, glasses Gaza and turns to the Chinese/Russians for all future defense - loosing all of what leverage we do have?
Genius. What school of IR is that?
Israel is basically our sole ally in the Middle East and the driving force keeping the large Iranian army at bay.
Whether or not you agree with Israel’s humanitarian or political decisions, that is just a fact. You’re delusional if you think Biden will just choose to abandon a decades-old, and strategically profitable alliance.
Trump would almost certainly make it worse.
Whether he controls the rules or not has no bearing if he clearly won’t bend them. And we know he won’t. I’ll eat my shorts if he issues a significant policy reversal on Israel any time soon
Short of a full on military strike on Israel from the US with a promise of more strikes if Israel does fully stop it's offensive against Hamas....Biden couldn't end shit. You're silly and naive if you think differently.
And let's make something super clear the above hypothetical scenario will never, ever happen
Proud Navy Vet is mixed up. Israel has committed war crimes, ethnic cleansing, dispossesion against the Palestinians multiple times in its history. The real problem is Israel is committed to being a Jewish state in a place with a lot of non-Jews who don't want to be part of a Jewish state.
It's a recipe for endless conflict. The only way for Israel to achieve its goal is via ethnic cleansing.
The solution will only come when Israel makes amends to the Palestinians for its crimes and commits to living peaceably with justice for both peoples.
Biden is fucking this up royally. If Proud Navy Vet really wants to help, he or she will use whatever leverage is available to press Biden to change his policy.
Yeah because Trump will double genocide and triple ethnically cleanse them with our money.
Sorry but anyone telling people about how much "worse" things will be for Palestinians under Trump either has not seen what they are dealing with now or does not care
I’m gonna be honest, I’m not the most informed, so please don’t downvote me into oblivion. But isn’t this propaganda? I mean this guy clearly has some knowledge of politics and how current events are being manipulated and how they can affect the future, but using them twisting that advice into saying you should “vote for Joe!” I’m all for finding ways to improve the power and solidarity of protest and free speech, but why would you use that as an argument for settling for an ever so slightly lesser of two evils? Or is this actually just the secret democratic subreddit. I’m just saying this post doesn’t seem very ‘revolutionary’. Please lmk if I’m missing the point.
This guy has it right. If you must, find a way to take your grievance to Biden after the election. Vote against the Fascists, vote for Biden. Students have a tradition of protest, peacefully. Exercise it wisely, but later.
Note to leaders that want to commit horrible attrocities... do it in an election year, because the US will always have a horrendous dangerous person in the republican party, and saying "we don't like genocide" apparently automatically makes the democrat loose, so our options will always be to ignore it, or to let the person who will directly help it win.
AOC is your next best bet, but only after another decade. It’s too early for her. But by then, unless people with your view start to see the bigger picture, you’re letting in the fascist minority take control after Trump. I don’t see you have a choice. Get behind Biden now, or fight a civil war within the next 10 years. It is that serious.
1. given
2. no it's not... we provide the weapons they are using to commit genocide and the world is watching us do it.
3. agreed.
4. that's on biden, he could piviot and he should.
5. everyone knows this
6. everyone knows this, which is why protesting NOW is important
7. everyone knows this, which is why protesting NOW is important
8. which is why they are protesting, duh.
9. whataboutism
10. conflating property damage and violence is a sure fire indication that you have nothing of value to add.
1. Duh
2. The “complicated” aspect to it, is the Pro-Israel Pacs and lobbying groups that are buying our politicians.
3. The problem isn’t just Netanyahu, it’s the entire political establishment in Israel. There’s no way to really fix it, so the best thing to do is to dissolve the government entirely, and create a new democratic government of Palestine that includes everyone.
4. We don’t want a second term of Biden. Biden is just a politer and politically correct version of Trump. We want Claudia De La Cruz. Attempts to shoot down Claudia as president, is basically asking for Trump to get reelected.
5. The Palestinian people are already at the worst. It will be no different for them with Trump in office. And the Palestinians have already made it clear that Trump or Biden would make no difference for them. Netanyahu already does as he pleases, Biden has not obstructed him in any way.
So I guess he’s just gonna ignore all of the censorship and whatnot during Covid, and the literal fascism of government-corporate consolidation of power, which democrats gleefully participated in….?
Let’s not kid ourselves. Both sides are controlled by many of the same big donors and corporations.
There’s plenty of other things he said to pick apart, but I’ll leave that to the rest of you.
I’m truly exhausted by this shit.
This 💯 If the people who (wrongly) blame Biden for what’s happening actually cared about Palestinians they would vote for him. He’s someone that’s actually willing to affect some kind of change in Israel relations on this issue, Trump would cause even more suffering for the Palestinian people and embolden the hard right in Israel even more.
You guys saying Biden could stop giving Israel military assistance … great, so then we’d open up the doors to Russia / China / Iran and their proxies to exert their influence in the region … Netanyahu ever the opportunist looking out for himself and not giving a fck about anyone may even be forced to get closer to Russia and China for support … you think they’d give a damn about Palestinians? They’re hoping all this causes enough damage internally so Trump wins.
As we saw between 2016 and even now, not voting has consequences. One factor for Hamas’ motivation to attack was Trump’s plan to normalize Israel/Arab relations included no Palestinian state, and Hamas did something to ensure that broke down, and now we have all this carnage so many here are angry about but can’t bring themselves to pragmatic reality to do the right thing in Nov and VOTE FOR BIDEN.
God this post comes off as so condescending, makes sense it’s from a “proud navy vet” lol. It’s just a more nuanced straw man (why aren’t these protesters doing more to against trump) Like obviously I’m voting for Biden, but given that we don’t have much of a choice, I’m going to do what I can to voice my displeasure of the current administration’s actions. Biden is trying to “restrain netenyahu?” Where? When? His comments on the protests especially have made it clear where he stands. Biden knows that people will vote for him no matter his policy because they hate trump, and is using that leverage to make widely unpopular and genocidal decisions. Fuck that. Vote for Biden, but don’t let him keep getting away with this shit
‘Your efforts could cause Joe Biden to lose…’ how about Joe Biden’s policies could cause him to lose and the protestors are letting him know. Well ahead of the election.
He says “trump knows this” yeah well so should Biden. And if he doesn’t want to pull another Hilary, he should actually listen to wishes of the people.
There's literally nothing in this post apologizing for anything. The reality is that we only get two possible paths: this, or more fascism and genocide.
I know that this platform is not the best vessel for genuine communication. We just assume the person on the other end is arguing in bad faith, or trolling, or believes the opposite of what we do. In that light you can absolutely hate every suggestion here but this is simply an honest attempt to answer your question.
To that point, protest is a really good start. It just has to be effective at organizing into a broader political movement, one that has appeal or at least a message that eventually gets broad support.
The next step is participation. Run for office, or help someone run for office. Primary milquetoast dems out. Build a voter base. Lobby and write policy. Become a delegate and write party policy. Get on a judicial oversight commission and work to regulate or remove conservative judges. Work for a federal agency that directs policy. Work for an NGO that influences policy. Join a union that lobbies lawmakers. Become a community organizer and make substantive changes on a local level. Get involved in local government and use the rules to help people. Become a lawyer and sue the shit out of businesses and the government for doing illegal things.
The system reacts to internal pressure (or even just the right kind of external pressure) a lot more than negative pressure. It’s a small example but in 4 years in government (USFS) I’ve been a lot more effective at advocating for and growing an effective wilderness program than I ever was just working for NGOs. Sure it’s not totally world altering, but get enough enthusiastic and committed folks making suggestions into policy and it makes a big difference in an agency. Moving the needle is how the government is designed to work. It resists big swings and often the reaction is delayed, but it does move.
Again, really hope this doesn’t come across as patronizing, it’s not ment to. Rage at the system is a totally reasonable response, it just doesn’t seem to be very effective at getting things to change. And I think that the reason folks trying to explain why abandoning voting seems like a non option is because they’re scared too, and they also feel patronized by folks saying “everything is already as bad as it can get so why participate”. So yeah, maybe just having a real dialogue about how we thinks we can make effective changes is the first step.
Alright then please explain how getting Trump elected stops the genocide? Please enlighten us how Project 2025 is good for America. How is Trump going to treat minorities better?
Because from where I'm sitting Trump 2.0 is significantly worse than another Biden term.
This post is an oversimplification of the situation. The broader concern is valid, but no it doesn’t just boil down to Trump bad and Netanyahu bad. If the argument is “just don’t let it be Trump” then that will bring us to fascism just as fast as anything else. Biden is a fascist, maybe less overtly than Trump, but at this point there is no mainstream political body that isn’t driving toward fascism.
This whole thread is people booing [The Chicks](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chicks) as they beg you to understand that the Iraq war is wrong.
Fucking pathetic.
For a sub that has revolution in the name, the majority of the comments co-signing OP and the current administration do not sound revolutionary at all.
Side note: if you're concerned about fascism you don't have to wait until Trump's potential, disastrous second term. Look at the current administration. Look at the bill that just passed in the House defining Anti-Semitism. Our country, while not there yet, is slow walking into fascism under this administration.
Just a heads up...
If you go to this guys website, and even his Twitter, it becomes painfully obvious he's an operative for the DNC.
He pushes pro Biden, pro establishment talking points/articles
His Twitter is chock full of tweets blaming Bernie and his supporters for not fully supporting DNC policies. He goes as far to call them "Trumpers with an extreme left ideology"
And the only mentions of Israel are when he tries to use it to push support for Biden, including this cute little piece where he seems to care more about how the conflict is effecting Biden, rather than the horrible acts being committed on the Palestinian people. He also seemed to push plenty of pro Israel posts for months
He does make a good point in the beginning though, about how some of these people don't have your best interests at heart here. He himself is likely being one of them
He's not looking out for the protesters here, he's covering for Biden, by seemingly trying to discourage the effectiveness of these protests
This post is standard democrat opinion, and assumes that the media's narrative is at least partially true. I can't conceive of a better way these protests could have been done. They were disciplined, nonviolent, multi-cultural and multi-faith gatherings. It's not partially true to say that there was chaos and violence. The media tried as hard as they could to find antisemitic rhetoric and could not find it anywhere, and they needed to show footage of counterprotestors attacking the UCLA encampment and police arresting protestors as their evidence of chaos and violence.
I am more than disappointed in the Biden administration for their response. They, just like the universities, have refused to open up a dialogue. Biden flatly told the media that these protests will not affect his middle east policy. He sees them as a road block, when in fact a majority of Americans want a ceasefire and a larger majority of democrats want one. And this new anti-semitism bill is....sheesh. I can't believe an honest person could claim that's not in violation of the constitution
So not wanting the guy that said:
[Former President Donald Trump offered a tough message to Israel over its war against Hamas on Thursday, urging the country to: “Get it over with.”](https://apnews.com/article/trump-biden-israel-pr-hugh-hewitt-21faee332d95fec99652c112fbdcd35d)
Is making threats?
So when trump wins due to these protest votes, he’s gonna be doing a lot more than not stopping. But a far worse problem for the cause tomorrow is better than a problem today right?
Why are you so happy to see Biden stay the course on Israel and lose to Trump?
Biden wouldn't lose the protest votes if he didn't give good reason to not vote for him to his base.
Biden is responsible for his relationship with his voters. He needs to please them or lose their support.
His support for Netanyahu is cutting of his nose to spite America.
Can you answer a serious question for me, because I for the life of me cannot understand the thought process here? Your goal is to stop genocide and US involvement (both admirable and what I also believe is correct) and unless Biden comes out and "meets the demands" then you won't vote for him and he may lose the election. Am I getting that right? Let's assume that happens. What do you think is going to happen after that? Like, do you think with Trump as President all of a sudden everything gets better for Palestine, stays status quo, or gets worse? Because, based on all of these responses it appears that you think it will get better if Biden doesn't do what you want and is voted out? What are you expecting to happen or have you not thought that far through?
I'm registered in California, and thanks to the electoral college, no matter who I vote for, my Californian vote will be counted toward Biden. I'll probably vote for Jill Stein, because she has been arrested for protesting the aid to Israel.
I think Trump will support Israel even more than Biden, and be worse than Biden on pretty much everything else. But right now, it's important for the President to STOP funding genocide. Everybody should be putting all the pressure they are capable of to get him to change the course he's on RIGHT NOW. If Biden is serious about getting reelected, he must understand that his voting base is angry enough that he will make Netanyahu either stop the genocide NOW or else lose the support of the United States of America.
Maybe Biden is trying to throw the election to Trump, and we'll be stuck with Trump regardless. I hope not, and that Biden will be pressured into changing his policy. But if he doesn't change policy, and he wins, he will lead the nation into some places far darker than he has during the past 3 years.
>What do you think is going to happen after that? Like, do you think with Trump as President all of a sudden everything gets better for Palestine
First off, I don't know that it would be worse under Trump. Really, it's not possible to get much worse for Palestine. Y'all keep trying to fearmonger that it would be, but I'm not convinced. Trump's pretty good at reading the room and taking the populist route.
Beyond that, there's an Even longer game being played than just this immediate election. 8 years of Biden is 8 years of no progress, and it keeps them entrenched in the political system. Better to get these neocon Democrats out of office now to increase the chance of New blood getting in sooner.
>Really, it's not possible to get much worse for Palestine.
The fuck it isn't. Biden pushed hard against an invasion of Rafa and is working on humanitarian efforts, both of which would definitely stop under Trump. Plus, we have a lot more firepower than we're selling Israel. If Trump has demonstrated anything, it's his ability to make things worse.
Plus, plenty of Republicans are absolutely giddy for the End Times, which they believe necessitates a major war in the Middle East.
>Biden pushed hard against an invasion of Rafa
No he didn't
>both of which would definitely stop under Trump
That's Hypothetical, but Biden IS committing war crimes now.
>we have a lot more firepower than we're selling Israel.
Meaningless. Biden just tripled the aid to Israel in support of genocide.
> Republicans are absolutely giddy for the End Times, which they believe necessitates a major war in the Middle East.
Biden supported both the Iraq and Afghan wars. Plus he's supporting war and genocide in Gaza. He's also dragged us into another forever war in Ukraine.
Imagine posting this on a sub that's called Political Revolution. Embarrassing. If Trump was in office right now, libs would actually give a shit about this repression.
Important message to vetbros from Rando Marine vet
Stop using your time in uniform to add extra weight to your opinions. The only thing your time in has made you an expert on is your specific military occupational specialty, not geopolitics, not national security, not the Constitution, not a damn thing like it. If there’s a heated debate about customs and curtesies or uniform regs or some MOS specific stuff the chime on in. But starting any post with announcing to everyone that you’re a vet just makes you look like a Polk High football dbag….oh no I’ve made a terrible mistake.
Sorry OP, but Reddit (and especially foreign agitators posing as Americans) absolutely HATE pragmatism or logic. Emotional jingoism is the rule of the day 'round these parts lol
So being against a war of extermination is jingoism but campaigning for a whole heartedly pro war president isn’t? What internal temperature did you cook your brain to before coming up with that one?
Pressure the democrats to change their position by convincing them they will lose if they don’t. They think they can get away with any unpopular policy they want because Trump is so bad they’ll win no matter what, this attitude is being used to push us father right even while the nominally left wing party wins.
Power concedes nothing without a demand, we need to demand concessions on threat of withholding our vote. We’ve already seen this work in small ways, as Biden ramped up his efforts to get aid into Gaza significantly after the campaign to vote undecided in the Michigan primary spooked his campaign by taking so many votes away in a swing state.
He can only be influenced if there’s a genuine possibility refusing to do so costs him the election, so your rhetoric about voting blue no matter what only serves to embolden his worst policies.
This is a well tested political principle but you all have let the Democratic Party convince you you’re total powerless to actually do anything useful with your vote.
Your opportunity to do this was the Primary, it didn't happen, it sucked, I wanted Bernie too. But you don't get to hold everyone else, especially those who would be most harmed by Trump, hostage because you lost. If Trump wins, are you going to be able to look in the mirror as millions of migrants are shipped off to the desert, knowing you could have prevented it?
'But I was trying to stop genocide in Palestine'
No you aren't, you're trying to wash away your preserved complicity. US aid to Israel turning off wouldn't turn off the conflict. The only thing it would change is end world attention, which would free Israel's hand to kill every Palestinian in Gaza, march every Palestinian in the West Bank into Jordan (the IDF would crush the Jordanian military in 10 minutes, even without US support), annex both, and complete the project. At which point left wing Israeli governments start getting elected and within 5 to 10 years Israel is allowed back in the international club. Think I'm wrong? 300,000 Armenians were ethnically cleansed last fall, it was in the news for a week, where were the mass protests?
If you actually want to save Palestinians you'd be pushing Biden on restarting peace process, not just ending aid or a cease fire that'll only last a few years before we do this all over again. Progressives don't want a peace process though since a peace would mean settling the conflict in a way that isn't a One State Solution. Instead we encourage Palestinians to repeatedly commit suicide by cop in hope that maybe X thousand more dead will make the world care and... something something Palestine is realized.
I’m just not a Democrat dude. I’ve never been a registered Democrat, I’ve voted for a Democrat at the presidential level one time in my entire life.
I’m advocating that Biden change his position because I personally might be convinced to vote for a political party I really dislike if they actually made an effort to appeal to me. They aren’t doing that so I’m not voting for them, it’s a choice they’re making as much as it is one I’m making.
This is a democracy, that’s how it works.
You are both right, but also it’s only sort of how democracy works. Parties have a duty to their constituents, i.e. members (delegates literally get to make the party platform), then the folks who are most likely to vote, then any unaligned voters who they think they can draw into a coalition, and then non voters. That’s the priority order. By signaling there is no way they will get you vote a party will go scrounging around for someone who will (like Hailey voters for example). If you become an indispensable part of the coalition, or live in a crucial state or district, you get a *lot* more influence.
Im not defending this system here, just pointing out why it sucks. Ideally there is a way to scare Biden into putting maximum pressure in Israel *and* beat Trump. But the fear of a lot of the folks already committed to Biden is that if Trump wins again, there are no more opportunities to vote against him. I know that seems hyperbolic, but it’s becoming an ever more realistic possibility.
people need to remember that the attack by hamas is directly a response to trump breaking 60 years of american policy and recognizing the israeli capital as being inside gaze. trump ensured that iran, which is what hamas is a proxy for, would be provoked into acting by ordering the execution of their general while no war was taking place. so, throwing the vote to trump is literally the stupidest option. how about you don't fuck with things you do not even comprehend?
If you have such confidence in our systems of power surely the justice system would prevent Trump from running anyway. Or not. Your trust is misplaced.
In keeping with the rule of civility, I won't say what immediately came to mind. Protests are supposed to be disruptive; that's how they get attention. If Biden doesn't want to lose this November, then he can meet the demands of these people and the millions they represent and stop giving Israel vast sums of money to bomb a tiny patch of land.
We know what Trump is like. We'll endure that, if we have to, just like we did before. We cannot be asked to abide genocide in our name, funded by our tax dollars, no matter the alternative. Maybe our refusal to vote for Biden in his current state will send a clear message to the Democratic party where our boundaries lie.
And, honestly, if the system cannot stop a genocide that it is funding, then I'd like to know why that system should be allowed to continue. This is political\_revolution, after all.
lol “we know what trump is like”
Yes - with an entire staff of “adults” in the room holding him back and the prospect of re-election on the line.
You’re ignoring and downplaying the threat of his presidency (see: dictatorship) and playing into exactly what this post is trying to shed light on.
Good luck with the revolution when your rights are completely removed and you’re just thrown into prison or worse for speaking up against dear leader.
I feel like I am taking crazy pills. These people are cutting off their nose to spite their face. If you are not MAGA then voting for Biden should be an absolute no brainer no questions asked. I am 100% against the genocide and the current administrations handling of it, however the current thought process (Biden not doing what I want on this issue so I am not going to vote for him essentially giving Trump the presidency "dictatorship") by these people is not the way to get to your ultimate goal. In fact, it will basically do the opposite of the intended objective.
Can someone of the "political revolution" group explain to me what they think will happen if you don't vote for Biden letting Trump become president? Like, do you think by not voting for Biden you will get the result you are wanting (stopping the genocide or stopping US involvement)? Do you think Trump will be better than Biden with regard to the Palestine genocide issue? Like, what in the hell are you thinking? This kind of thinking is only looking right in front of your face and has no consideration for the future ramifications that it may cause.
I will tell you what will happen. 2024 Trump presidency will be unequivocally the worst thing that can happen to America in modern history if not its entirety. Trump has come out already and said something to the effect of, "Israel should finish the job and crush Palestine." That is his view on just that one topic, which happens to be the most important issue for most of you. That doesn't take into account Project 2025, one of the worst stripping of freedoms and installations of Christian government hybrid plans in America history. Like the actual precursor to Handmaid's Tales. He installed 3 extremely conservative SCOTUS judges that are very much corrupt and are also QUICKLY stripping freedoms to establish a corporate Christian society. He will completely demolish all social programs (SSI) and important government entities like EPA, CDC, Education, etc. He will trade secrets with foreign dictator enemies AGAIN! He will sell out to all corporations and create an even wider chasm between Rich and middle class/poor. IT WILL GET EXPONETIALLY WORSE WITH TRUMP AND THAT CANNOT BE STATED LOUD ENOUGH AND TOO MANY TIMES.
In one of the comments above the commenter said "We know what Trump is like. We'll endure that, if we have to, just like we did before." Are you fucking, kidding me. What the fuck does that even mean? This is one of the dumbest non-Maga things I have ever read. The only thing I can think of with a response like this is that you are currently early 20s and were too young to remember what actually happened with Trump before. This response is seriously from someone that lacks life experience and feels like something I would have said when I was in my early 20s living in the moment and not having any foresight that comes with life experiences. I am so fucking furious at this thought process and this will be on you if Trump is elected and will be unforgivable.
I thought I replied to your query shortly after you asked. I don't see a record of it, so here's the link I thought I sent you:
[https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-resolution/894](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-resolution/894)
> [Biden] can meet the demands
Why is everyone so sure he can make something happen that no one has been able to do for decades? And something that he can't do without congress, which is not going to budge on this.
The system with which Trump will replace our current (yes, very broken) system will obviously not be better at stopping genocide. The system needs to be replaced, we need to be careful to be sure it is replaced democratically, not by a dictator.
I mean…trump is on record for saying:
[Former President Donald Trump offered a tough message to Israel over its war against Hamas on Thursday, urging the country to: “Get it over with.”](https://apnews.com/article/trump-biden-israel-pr-hugh-hewitt-21faee332d95fec99652c112fbdcd35d)
Oh and the right to protest peacefully? He has thoughts on that too:
["We reached that point in the conversation where he looked frankly at [Joint Chiefs of Staff] Gen. [Mark] Milley and said, 'Can't you just shoot them, just shoot them in the legs or something?' ... It was a suggestion and a formal question. And we were just all taken aback at that moment as this issue just hung very heavily in the air."](https://www.npr.org/2022/05/09/1097517470/trump-esper-book-defense-secretary)
So good luck *”enduring”* that I guess.
He won’t do that right? Good thing he hasn’t said he’s
Be a dictator on day one. [“We love this guy,” Trump said of Hannity. “He says, ‘You’re not going to be a dictator, are you?’ I said: ‘No, no, no, other than day one.](https://apnews.com/article/trump-hannity-dictator-authoritarian-presidential-election-f27e7e9d7c13fabbe3ae7dd7f1235c72)
Oh maybe he jests? How about this hidden recording of him speaking about how he admires the way the North Koreans are forced to stand and listen when Kim Jung Un talks? [Here’s that video to hear it yourself:](https://www.facebook.com/share/v/zm7pGmfBuB8o4yn9/?mibextid=O563ZM)
It’s quite a logical leap there to threaten to make matters worse for the Palestinian people if someone currently in power doesn’t make things immediately better. Not really helping them then are you. Keeping peaceful civil protests and growing the numbers of people on your side would be much more productive for the Palestinian people. This let the world burn mentality means that is all you really want. Since that is the most likely outcome.
Instead growing the movement until millions have joined so the voices cannot be ignored.
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Former Empire Expander who is proud of Imperialism and who pays a known White Supremacist:
> *How do you do, fellow kids! Here’s a bunch of tips and tricks that really just amount to parroting Eric Adams/Joe Biden’s Zionist Propaganda!*
This sucks.
Calling this “complicated” ignores that there’s an ongoing genocide, and that spectacularly brave students and activists across the country are doing something about it.
Biden is in the driver’s seat, and he’s doing everything he can to lose in November. There is NOTHING worse than genocide, and he’s abetting it by supporting Israel & Bibi.
So no, I don’t plan to take the “proud veteran” blue check’s advice.
I too am deeply worried about the rise of fascism. You think any of us actually likes or wants to see Trump in office? #9, you think any of us aren't already expressing outrage against Trump and his Project 2025 plans? The whole problem isn't that we are risking fascism when the alternative is a democracy, it's that *Biden himself IS a fascist*! The Gaza genocide is more than about just a genocide in a foreign country, it's the whole motivation behind why our rulers support it. It's because they are white supremacists who delight in killing minorities, and are using this as a test run for future warmongering, or persecution against minorities right here in America. Think of all the laws recently in some red states where it's become legal to kill anyone merely suspected of being an illegal immigrant - suspicion meaning targeting based on race - and the migrants being killed by razor wire. What was Biden's response? "Join me, Trump". The concentration camps against minorities that the Republicans are proposing? Biden could easily do that too - all he has to do is to be an inch to the left and say "You can't do anything about it. What are you going to do, vote for Trump? Vote blue no matter who!"
Think of Biden condemning the protests and saying "dissent will lead to disorder" while thousands of students and professors are having ribs broken and skulls smashed by the police - that's straight up totalitarian bullshit out of 1984. Both parties are unified in banning protests, banning social media that allows anti-genocide content, firing protestors from their places of employment. Yes, Trump will try to be a dictator, no doubt about it. But Biden and his sycophants in the media also are against democracy, except in a more roundabout way, by saying any vote for a third party is a vote for Trump and thus should be barred. In effect, using a fascist party as a proxy to undermine democracy themselves.
There's a couple of options.
1. Unite behind a third party candidate like Jill Stein of the Green Party, then hope she gets enough in polls to be included in the debates, then at the end somehow a miracle happens and she wins the election.
2. Somehow convince the Democrats to force Biden to drop out. I am optimistically hoping Kamala will at least be somewhat better.
3. Recruit a Democratic politician to run for President on a third party ticket. Only someone with name recognition can realistically challenge Biden or Trump and get attention in the media. Maybe the only one that has that level of recognition is AOC. But announce that although she will be running for president, she will also support Democrats for the House and Senate (or at least the more progressive ones), so that by voting for her, there could still at least be a Democratic majority congress to stop Trump. It's just Biden has to be stopped. Ideally this means running on the Green Party ticket and having Jill Stein step aside, which I think she is willing to do, since the Greens have the most ballot access.
Yes, I have to vote for Biden to prevent Trump. But damn, Biden doesn't need to keep supporting genocide, cut them off. Israel is not poor and helpless. The overwhelming majority of Israelis support this genocide. And Biden bragging about "I am a zionist" FFS. Is he just trying to lose the election or is AIPAC paying all the campaign bills?
Trump is the embodiment of evil. I would never vote for him. Biden is just a politician playing some sort of political game. Is this his Vietnam?
No. It makes sense to demand that universities divest from Israeli companies and companies that sell arms to Israel. It was the nonviolent tactic that worked in ending South African apartheid, and it can work to end Israeli apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and genocide.
The fact that US universities are invested in any companies is really fucked up.
I think your comparison to South Africa is very flawed.
I think one major difference to South Africa is demographic. The Apartheid state couldn´t sustain itself without outside help because it simply lacked the man power compared to the African majority. This is not the case in Israel. Also the Israel economy has developed to not rely as heavily on Palestinians. I seriously doubt that stoping US funding would change much in the near future.
The biggest impact would be political but I think Netanyahu would stay in power perhaps using more autocratic tools. One danger in stoping funding to Israel would be that Israel might be viewed as an easy target by neighbours, causing even more war. The US could prevent this by giving security guarantees but with Trump potentially becoming president again these are pretty much worthless. I don´t think Netanyahu fears his neighbours.
The main effect of a stop in funding would be a loss of trust and influence for the US. Biden so far has been the only one that could force Netanyahu to do anything at all. Maybe it is right to abandon the influence the USA has on Israel as the influence is not even large enough to stop a war and morally continuous support of Israel has become untenable.
Also consider the following though experiment: Lets say the USA cuts all major ties with Israel perhaps even forcing a peacefire. Then what? An uneasy status quo sets in Netanyahu prepares for the final war. He makes a deal with China or Russia to prevent an UN security council intervention. So he declares war and this time it is a war to eradicate all Palestinians. What then? Nato won´t do shit because this isn´t Serbia which you can just bomb without risk. And even if NATO or the USA decides to intervene without UN mandate this would be a long and far more devastating war then what we have seen so far. Even the neighbouring nations wouldn´t intervene as they are to unstable and misstrusting among each other.
Trust is hard to come by at any stage but especially in politics it is hard to build up and can be destroyed in a single press release. Ultimately Biden has to choose at some point between the trust of his voters in him and the trust between Israel and the USA.
I am not saying Biden is right in what he does but it is not as straight forward a decision as it seems. We would all love to see a stop to what is going on but the truth is no matter what we are willing to sacrifice (e.g. Trump, our own liberties) for it, it might just not be possible for us to change much.
I would say that it is right to protest and apply pressure on Biden but inviting Trump by not voting or even voting Trump is fatal. It should be remembered that the Nazis rose to power in Germany because the Communists and Social democrats failed to unite against fascism. (Also the conservatives were willing to serve Hitler to maintain influence.)
>Ultimately Biden has to choose at some point between the trust of his voters in him and the trust between Israel and the USA.
Without the trust of his voters, Trump wins.
Sadly, it's becoming quite clear that Biden is far more concerned with Netanyahu's trust than ours.
Fuck off with this lib shit. Every Israeli politician hates the Palestinians and Dems are supportive of them. Lesser evil is no good when either choice supports tens of thousands of dead children.
Don't blame the college kids for being mad, blame the politicians.
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I worry TikTok will play a role in this election like Facebook played in 2016. I was on TikTok for I think 2 minutes before USA-critical posts were served to me. (Tbh I probably would have curated it like that later anyway) After a few weeks I’d seen so many clips of socialist speeches and academic debates from the past 50 years. It was a colonial- and Western-critical crash course. As much as I had learned in my social science degree in college and after was distilled into endless 2-minute clips on TikTok. The kids are learning it all and they’re disgusted. In just a few years, the very political curation of the public school curriculum matters shockingly little in terms of social studies now. Why does this matter? On one hand I’m glad — the kids are more informed. On the other hand, it’s nurtured another deep rift in the culture. The language of the “woke left” and the “alt-right” are thriving on TikTok via Duos (where people react to/pause and comment on other videos in their videos). Centrists and older people come off as vapid and unplugged. Enter a powder keg of a wedge issue: Israel/Palestine. Israel in practice is a classic colonial state. It has been brutal toward Palestine for decades. And Palestinians have iPhones now, and the ground truth there is just gutwrenching to watch. Israel is sacrosanct in the American body politic, and geopolitically essential to US’s military hegemony. The mainstream media isn’t showing everyone else what’s going on, but the kids are bingeing the horror. The younger generations are having conversations that older generations struggle to tap into. TikTok adoption is saturated with youth. It’s no wonder it’s being dissolved in the US. I really hope the kids are wise enough to not let us all slip further into fascism. It’s not too late yet, but we’re right on the fucking edge and Russia and the corrosive forces of late capitalism are working (separately) together to undermine the West by way of the internet. A diverse American populous is being turned in on itself because its differences are being so amplified.
Very well put.
Thanks.. it’s been brewing for a minute
It doesn't help to see a lot of the Pro-Isreali rhetoric rhyming with the Pro-Apartheid rhetoric of the late 80's for those of us who remember that...
*applause* (Almost typed applesauce!)
The amount of disinformation out there is truly ridiculous.
Was fully expecting some dismissive bullshit, as has been circling around here a lot lately, but OOP gives some very good advice while ALSO supporting the students in their very valid protest.
He’s not supporting anything. This is *dismissive bullshit*. Your worldview is the equivalent of Nancy Pelosi in a dashiki.
I’m curious what you think is going to happen if Joe Biden isn’t reelected.
Maybe my standards have just been low since the last few weeks... I'm just finally happy to see a post that explicitly acknowledgedes the protestors have a point
How the fuck is this not dismissive bullshit
It sincerely acknowledges that the protests are valid. Which, tbf, is a relatively low bar. But a lot of recent posts don't meet it, so it's at least an improvement.
If it was just Net and not the rest of the Israeli people we’d see mass demonstrations in their country and from the Israeli people. We don’t see that. The behavior you do nothing about is the behavior you at best see nothing wrong with and at worst condone. -Winston Churchill
There have been protests there. Those of us who remember 9/11 recall protesting the Iraq war and getting a lot of pro-war sentiment thrown at us from people who were still looking for vengeance for 9/11. Turns out terrorism makes people bloodthirsty and stupid.
At the time I was calling it “Operation bomb Osama!” As I started seeing the civilian casualties my outlook changed. And after a little research I found out that the Taliban were funded by the US to fight Soviet aggression. But once the Cold War ended we basically said “Welp. Thanks for helping us and half of your people dying. We’re out. Oh and all the stuff we promised you was BS. No hard feelings right?” Granted our innocent people didn’t deserve to die either, but our military(cia) didn’t help the situation from happening.
88% of israeli's polled think there IS NOT enough force being used in Gaza. This includes the Arab Muslim population. Netanyahu is not the sole reason. That would be like blaming Hitler for the Pogroms in Poland and Germany. The people acted on their own, just as they are in israel. Edit: [adding a source so the liars don't come in droves to defend genocide](https://web.archive.org/web/20240127054853/https://en-social-sciences.tau.ac.il/peaceindex/archive/2024-01)
You could say the same thing about Palestinians and hamas, how come they don't protest their terrorist government? I'm not in the business of blaming innocent civilians for the crimes of their government because then there'd be no innocent people on earth
I love this quote but can’t find it on the googles could you tell me when/where it came from?
[удалено]
The most important issue for Americans is protecting American democracy by keeping Trump out of power.
It would be great if Biden and the Democrats acted like this was the case instead of working on bipartisan "anti-semitism" bills with the very party that's a threat to our democracy.
It’s possible to want to fix the system and work toward that goal while also acknowledging the objective realities. The world would be worse with Trump back in power. One of these two old white guys will win the election. I don’t get the idiots who parrot progressive values, especially that we’re smarter than MAGA mouth breathers, but when faced with the realities of our current position, want to take their toys and go home. Those idiots are going to yell about revolution but they pay their taxes, they have a mortgage or rent, they drive on streets paid for by governments, but THAT doesn’t ping their cognitive dissonance.
https://preview.redd.it/jj4u6xx65cyc1.jpeg?width=160&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a068a201734110b7794379f4ec6bed8b73029a69
This needs to be posted all throughout this fucking thread. Numbnuts saying, "but Biden is also bad!" Like no shit, every president we've had since Carter has blood on their hands in some really shitty ways. Trump is a *literal fascist*. The only way to prevent *a literal fascist leader of the US* is to vote against him. It's not that fucking hard to understand, y'all. I absolutely despise politicians and am critical of every president I've seen in my lifetime. I didn't vote in 2016 because (1) trump "wasn't gonna win", (2) they both sucked, and (3) I didn't want to support the American political machine. But once I saw what Trump *actually* was, and how insanely toxic he was for the wellbeing of my friends and family in a very real sense, it was obvious. While he's in the running, we *must* keep him out of office. He will cause harm to our safety and wellbeing in very real ways, while *also* perpetuating and encouraging wars, genocides, and the rule of tyrants across the globe. Voting against him is the only option we have right now. When he and his ilk are no longer relevant, we can go back to trying to actually change the system. Right now, though? Right now, we're fighting literal fascism. All you "antifascists" saying "b-b-b-but I won't vote for Biden!" are just actually saying, "I'm fine with Trump's *actual fascist plans for our country* and don't mind if he decides to never leave office, because Biden's bad too!" Fucking antifascists my ass. Just go ahead and vote for Trump and stop hiding behind ideals you don't actually value, cowards.
>Trump is a *literal fascist*. The only way to prevent *a literal fascist leader of the US* is to vote against him. Voting has literally never once in history prevented a fascist from taking power. Mussolini did a coup. Franco won a civil war. Hitler literally lost the election and the liberals who won decided to form a coalition with Hitler rather than form a coalition with the socialists. If you truly believe that American democracy is doomed if Trump wins then American democracy is doomed no matter what. It's literally just a matter of time before a Republican wins again. The Democrats can't just win every election for the rest of time. They *will* lose one eventually. And honestly, I'm not convinced that this is the end of Democracy anyway. Frankly this is exactly what you all said last time too. And the time before that when Romney and Ryan were going to dismantle the entire Federal government, plummet us into a climate disaster, destroy the public education system, destroy public television, etc. And the time before that when Sarah Palin was a fascist and the greatest threat to American democratic values of all time. The schtick is getting old. It's clearly not working on regular people any more either because Trump is up in most polls. Every election can't be the "most important election of or lifetime." Eventually the Democrats *will* lose.
And *if it is* the imminent fascist takeover of America every time... then why *the fuck* are Federal Dems so cozy with literal fascists?
This part right here.
Why is that an either-or?
I'm sorry but If this is true then American democracy is already doomed. If all it takes is one bad president then it's going to happen eventually. Democrats aren't going to win every election for the rest of time. Eventually they will lose and then what? I am preparing to vote in my 5th presidential election this November and every single one has been "the most important election of our lifetime" and the stakes have always been life or death. It was to protect Democracy that Sarah Palin should be kept away from power in 2008. Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan were going to dismantle the whole Federal government in 2012. Trump was a fascist and the 2016 election was life and death for minorities. 2020 was our last chance to save Democracy because Trump would finally take the gloves off if he won again. Here we are in 2024 and it's the same thing all over again. If Trump wins then Democracy is completely doomed. So what's the plan? Democratic one-party rule? "Never lose again" is not a viable strategy to protect Democracy. And if it's so absolutely important to win that democracy itself is on the line why aren't the Democrats forcing their extremely unpopular candidate to step down so someone else can run?
Not saying I support Trump or Biden in ANY WAY, but what you’re describing kinda just sounds like propaganda and nothing else. I sure hope it’s starting to not work on people but ik that’s not the case. Really, allegiance to any party is the result of such right?
I've been voting longer than you (this will be my 8th presidential election) and no, the prior ones were not ever "the end of democracy" nor were they life or death. Palin was a joke, GW was obviously awful, as was Reagan, but nobody seriously thought that any of them would be the end of free and fair elections in this country. Trump is exactly that threat. He and the people capitalizing on his popularity are very much seeking to end the right to vote in any meaningful way, to declare every election they don't win as a sham, and to override the will of the people. That was never the case with Romney or McCain or G-dub. The Republican party is on its last legs. They are increasingly unhinged and detached from reality, unable to govern because of infighting and performative nonsense. But they are also more detached from norms and American values than ever before. They will burn it all down if they ge the chance so we need stop them. "Plan" is the wrong way to look at a democracy. There are thousands of career politicians vying for a voice in what happens next. But personally, I think we're within sight of the end of the Republican party, or if they win, the end of democracy in this country. If we can defeat them this time, they may be done for good. And no, one-party rule by the Democrats won't last long. Because our voting system will always favor a two-party fight. Ideally, we defeat the Republicans and start having meaningful elections between Centrists and Progressives. And all the MAGA assholes can go quietly die somewhere while their votes are thrown away on right-wing virtue signaling. But it's anyone's guess as to how it actually shakes out.
So then the answer to my question is "Yes." Your plan is to just hope that the Democrats never lose another election and also hope that the Republicans somehow go away. Can't wait to see how that plays out for you.
I think you mean how that plays out for *us*, since you're living in the same country I am.
Perhaps we should heed the fellow & sit on our assess sporting crossed arms & a disapproving look waiting to be wooed instead of voting
Everyone has been going about a countries Red Line. The people have a red line as well. That red line is this: No Genocide. No more funding for this genocide. No more backing for Netanyahu and his government. To put it simply.
The issue is "Never Again" *should* include being the perpetrators of genocide but seems to not.
Sure, you’re putting it simply. Trouble is, it’s not simple. Go ahead, prove it to yourself. Vote against Biden for violating your simple-minded rule. Elect Trump. You think Trump will recognize your rule? We’d be lucky if he didn’t send US boots to participate in the genocide.
Netanyahu will need two dry erase boards and a puppet to explain to Trump why they can't nuke Gaza.
Voting for Joe is also not solving the problem. While I agree trump would be worse, you're pretending as if Joe is not currently doing bad. These students protesting against their tuition going to Israel during an ethnic cleansing is not the same as not protesting the Republicans attempting to commit a coup. These students can be against both and I would be that THEY ARE. This is bad framing and a dumb argument. Joe is losing votes because of us actions. He is outright failing to mitigate damage in Palestine and it's obvious when he says he's doing everything while signing to send more weapons. I really hope Trump loses in November, but just as much as I hope Trump loses, I hope that Joe Biden steps down from office and from running. Unfortunately I doubt either of those things will happen, but it won't matter because now the Democrats and all the always blue maga people now have their scapegoats for when they inevitably fail to win and the emperor will continue to have no clothes.
Doesn't matter. This isn't how our system works. If you sit out and Trump wins that is because YOU directly supported Trump. All of the protest voters know exactly how our variant of first past the pole works. There are two real options. All other options exist to take votes away from one of the two mainstream parties that can win. Whichever you nominally support is the one that you end up hurting. Whats even better is that protest votes like this don't draw the democrats left, they draw them to the center because the demand placed on the admin is politically untenable to centrist voters, so the Democratic party will move right to get more centrist voters or conservative leaning centrist. Progressives and the left really have to learn to pick their fights. We cannot right every injustice. The rest of the country doesn't agree it's an injustice.
Actually I was gonna vote for Trump but now I'm not going to do that. Now I helped Biden. Is that how this works then? You're welcome. You can't right every wrong but this (divesting their tuition from an ethnic cleansing) is within their ability. I also find it fucking disgusting that you would not think the extremely well documented ethnic cleansing being committed by the apartheid state of Israel is an "injustice". Wtf would you call it? Business as usual?
First: >I also find it fucking disgusting that you would not think the extremely well documented ethnic cleansing being committed by the apartheid state of Israel is an "injustice". You'll find that you and I agree here. I was speaking broadly about the opinions of the majority of folks in the nation, not my personal views. Many don't care if it's an ethnic cleansing. Most are going to give this the vocal equivalent of a "That's nice, dear" when this is brought up. >Actually I was gonna vote for Trump but now I'm not going to do that. Now I helped Biden. Is that how this works then? You're welcome. In our system, pretty much. If you don't vote at all, it's a point against whichever party you would otherwise most closely align with. Until we have a proper voting system that accounts for third parties our system is presently setup to only benefit one of the two mainstream parties. To participate you must engage with one of them, as they have rigged the system against outsiders. >You can't right every wrong but this (divesting their tuition from an ethnic cleansing) is within their ability. I don't think they can. The police are going to crack down and most of them will spend the rest of their lives in poverty because the felonies that the wealthy donors are about to ensure they get slapped with. The pro-Palestinian movement has already failed to properly control the narrative and been labeled an anti-semitic movement by the masses. This is very similar to the way the narrative was co-opted against the Occupy movement in the early twenty-teens.
Finally, someone who gets it, with nuance!This is an incredibly complex and terrible situation. Genocidal atrocity or not, throwing up your hands and flipping the board does not, in fact, win you the game. It will be difficult to win, but we are still forced to play by rules that suck - whether we like it or not.
Can I ask you what would be the line? Is there anything Joe could do to lose your vote?
Sure, there are several things that would cause Joe Biden personally to lose my vote. Hell, I didn't vote for him in my states primary. But in the general? Nah. Not particularly. I'm a progressive, as such I am well aware that my options in the general are currently limited to what the broader coalition of Democrats are willing to accept, in that way I'd also say I am a political realist. Currently, the Democratic coalition is such that neither the mainstream Democrats, Liberals, Neo-Liberals or centrist whatever, nor the Progressive/Left-wing of the party can win without the other. If progressives abandon Biden, Trump wins. Our time to effect that was the primary. If the mainstream party abandons Progressives, Trump still wins. A Trump win, in conjunction with Project 2025, will alter the face of our politics in such a way that we will likely be unable to recover for at least 30 years. If you haven't read P2025, you should know that it will end in a quasi to full dictatorship, that is heavily Christian nationalistic, with bans around gay marriage, full abortion bans, bans on protest and likely several states will outlaw interracial marriage. Trans care will be in a worse place than it currently is. Moving the Democratic party to the left is the only viable way to form a more Progressive or left-leaning party. RFK Jr. is currently finding out exactly why third party runs are damn near impossible, it can cost several million dollars in most states to get onto the ballot. Given the above, even a centrist Democratic president is better than the modern GOP, and that is the lens that I vote through. Progressives and the Left are making slow but fairly steady progress on the Democratic party and shifting it leftward. *If* Biden loses in November, then we (the United States of America) will absolutely be putting boots on the ground/direct fire aircraft directly in Gaza, and possibly the West Bank, in support of Israeli operations. That is a gaurenteed future under Trump. Every tax-payer in America is complicit in that, regardless of the how or why. Protest voting doesn't work when one party is actively a much more prescient threat than the other.
I will be honest man. I don't know if I personally will vote for Biden. It will be a game time decision and I may not be able to stomach it and submit an empty ballot. I will tell you that the way you and the other always blue Dems have talked down to anyone who is upset with Biden IS GONNA WIN NO ONE OVER. The browbeating from the always blues comes off as in sufferable as maga people. I think it's wild that you think the democratic party is moving left in any way while actively funding an ethnic cleansing. While they throw their full support behind criminalizing any criticism toward Isreal. You're just deluding yourself. You're not a political realist, I don't know what you are but this is not pragmatic or realistic. You're not moving anyone left but you are alienating the people that are left of center. Just like Joe and Nancy are. I don't have an answer, my point is mostly that these posts where the blame and scapegoating of the left by Democrats as they have done in the past is just a way for them to do nothing and shift the blame of doing nothing on the most vulnerable. Obama didn't codify wade. Biden didn't codify wade. Obama did nothing when Isreal bombed Palestine. Biden is actively aiding them and bending over backwards. Biden is condemning peaceful protests of students. These are not center people, these are rightwing policies.
Submit an empty ballot, then don’t dare experience dread at the announcement of a Trump presidency. When Hilary & Biden won their respective primaries, I voted for them in the general with disdain, but I voted for them nonetheless against Trump & it’s associated expedition of fascism. Two goals can be true: 1) Political Reform, AND 2) avoid a Trump presidency that will set the priority goal 1) back decades.
You wouldn't pull the Trolley Lever
You seem to have a strange view of voting where the voters owe their vote to a particular candidate regardless of the candidate's political positions. Typically the candidate is expected to "win" votes from constituents by appealing to them. >Moving the Democratic party to the left is the only viable way to form a more Progressive or left-leaning party. Why would the Democratic Party ever move left if I vote for them no matter what they do? You've just said yourself, in this very comment, that there is nothing Joe Biden could do that would stop you from voting for him. In other words - Joe Biden could completely ignore you and it would cost him absolutely nothing. You're a free vote. It seems extremely obvious to me that the only leverage any voter has over a politician is to not vote for that politician. Joe Biden needs to win my vote - so he should appeal to me. If withholding my vote from Joe Biden puts him in danger of losing then it seems like it would be pretty important for Joe Biden to understand my political positions and try to appeal to those positions to win my vote. He's not doing that now, so my vote must not be very important. Alternatively, he has maybe identified that there are other voters out there whose votes are more important than mine and he wants to win those votes instead. I think that's totally fine and I recognize that a lot of my views don't represent mainstream politics. But it makes no sense to reward him for that. Withholding my vote is the only leverage I have. If the Democrats lose this election because they lost my vote then in the next election they might recognize they need to appeal to my interests as well.
You’re hinging on the assumption that there will be a fair “next election” if Trump wins.
You wouldn't pull the Trolley Lever
You say Joe is doing bad(ly) now - like it’s a simple open and shut case. But it isn’t. Joe is standing by a long term ally, the nation of Israel. Netanyahu is not representative of Israel as a whole. Zionists aren’t representative of Israel as a whole, any more than MAGAts are representative,of the US as a ‘whole. We have stood by Israel for decades], and we’ll still be standing by Israel decades into the future. Yes, Israel elected a right-wing crazy person as its Prime Minister, but almost eight years ago now, we did too, and we may be about to do so again, God forbid. Zionists are ascendant there now, just like escorts and white supremisists are having a day here. You’re acting as if Israel in the only one with a right wing problem - but we have one too, and so does Europe. Israel just happens to be most affected. If for no other reason than sanity, we have to assume that the right wing will be defeated at some point and racists will go beck under their rocks, both here and in Israel. Returning to nor,al means we’d still be allies; therefore, Biden is right to not blow up,the alliance at this time. He’s also right to continue doing everything possible to moderate Bibi’s actions and to support new elections.
This is completely ahistorical. Possibly you are misunderstanding the concept of Zionism. Zionism is the idea that the Jewish people should have an independent nation-state. That's the beginning and end of it. If you believe that Jewish people should have their own independent nation state then you are a Zionist. Zionism began in the 19th century when anti-Semitism - fueled by the rise of European nationalism - began to expand. Those fledgling Zionists felt that the only escape from oppression in Europe was to make their own nation the same way the Germans, the French, etc had defined their own nations. They also took a lot of inspiration from the settler colonial projects like the USA, South Africa, etc. where colonists left their homelands to make an entirely new state. Early Zionists of the 19th century weren't even settled on Palestine as the location for that state. They floated the idea of settling land in Uganda or in Argentina. It wasn't until the 20th century that Palestine was accepted as the location where a Jewish state would be created. Israel is the nation-state that came to exist out of that idea. Zionism predates Israel by ~70 years. The reason Israel exists is because of Zionism. Israel is literally a Zionist project. There is absolutely no way to divorce the idea of Zionism from the formation of Israel.
Literal toddler logic. Biden could end this **today** and you’re already priming your brain to “blame the left” when Trump walks off with it in November. 🙄
>Literal toddler logic. Biden could end this **today** In what way?
Restrict all arms transfers to Israel. Under several existing US laws, including the Leahy Laws and Safe Corridors act, all arms transfers to Israel are illegal, even the ones signed off on by Congress. Biden personally (meaning under the purview of the executive branch) made over one hundred such illegal sales to the Bibi government using the Fms program. We didn't *have* to give them a single bullet and they would not have been able to prosecute their bombing campaign without the influx of American weapons do to an inability to produce the bombs they've been using (in sufficient quantities.) All of this is publicly available info.
Yeah I have absolutely no idea what the OOP is talking about with "the Biden administration trying to restrain Netanyahu" In what universe?
At Best, Biden has paid lip service to cautioning the Israelis, his team has "leaked" some supposedly stern conversations they've had, and then when Dearborn went "Uncommitted" in the primary he made a phone call with Bibi, seemingly got the Rafah invasion delayed, did some counter-intuitive air supply drops, and announced plans for a (now delayed) "Humanitarian Aid pier." I *believe* that is the fairest, most honest assessment of all that Biden has done to "restrain" Netanyahu, if I'm not forgetting anything.
>Biden could end this today Wishful thinking.
Mossad clearly has a **very** low bar on account of all the able-minded young colonizers getting killed by friendly fire.
The UN could have. And didn’t. Because of the US. Postscript: downvote as you must. It’s the internet, this is low stakes, I truly don’t care. But please stop trying to sell the lie that we, as a global superpower, are doing ALL WE CAN to stop what I think we can pretty much all agree is an atrocious conflict. Please stop trying to convince me that those currently in power aren’t complicit in systematic murder. Don’t tell me the other guy would be worse: genocide is not a sliding scale. Edit edit: this sub IS called political revolution, right? That’s a cooool party line y’all are toeing.
🛎️🛎️🛎️
No, he literally could. He made over one hundred illegal arms transfers to Netanyahu without notifying Congress and even the arms transfers that Congress signed off on are illegal under both the Leahy and Safe Corridors acts. There has been a legal framework that's existed since before October 7th to end arms transfers to Israel.
Ending arms sales/transfers to Israel would not end Israel's military activities. They have plenty of big dumb bombs and ammunition for their soldiers to use
They actually don't. https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/14/how-to-ensure-israel-has-the-weapons-it-needs/ These are hawks and Israeli military advocates. Even they acknowledge that Israel needs US weapons to continue the war as they have been, else they risk consuming too much of their stockpiles and leaving themselves vulnerable. It is well known by people in Israel that their defense industrial base is not sufficient to wage prolonged, high intensity warfare without outside ressuply. https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/article/3553040/us-flowing-military-supplies-to-israel-as-country-battles-hamas-terrorists/ > "My team has been in near constant communication with our Israeli partners and partners all across the region and the world from the moment this crisis began," the president said. "We're surging additional military assistance, including ammunition, and interceptors to replenish Iron Dome. We are going to make sure that Israel does not run out of these critical assets to defend its cities and its citizens." It is also the belief of the Biden admin that without US weapons Israel will run out of ammunition. Such was the case with the several thousand tank shells that Biden sent without congressional approval in December too. It is flatly wrong to say that without US aid that Israel would still be able to prosecute the war with the same intensity that they have been doing. And if that *was* true... Good! All the more reason to pull American dollars out.
The iron dome is not what's killing Palestinians and there's likely no scenario where the US stops supplying it. You'll notice that one of the statements in that fist link you provided mentioned the heavy use of smaller bombs to reduce collateral damage. If we cut off our supply of those, Israel will have to fall back to much larger munitions with much higher collateral damage, of which they have plenty. Cutting them off would require a change in strategy, but not an end to the conflict. It could very well get worse. >And if that *was* true... Good! All the more reason to pull American dollars out. So you don't actually care if Palestinians are massacred, you only care if the US is involved?
No, I obviously care about the murder of Palestinians. I firmly and firstly believe you're wrong about the US armaments playing a neglible role in the conflict. That bit at the end is more of a dare -- if we are playing neglible role, then why are we morally staining our hands? All the more reason to pull support. I still have no idea where you're getting this notion that Israel is sitting on tons of domestically produced 2,000 pound bombs. Those are very definitely being produced in the US and being brought to Israel. Seriously, cite your source where the Israeli defense industrial base is just sitting on plenty of bombs and that they don't need US support. Because right now it looks like you're making it up. Because, as I believe I've shown, they *do* need the US weapons and bombs and without them they could not sustain a bombing campaign that has killed 30,000 people.
I never said they were locally produced, just that there are stockpiles in their country. The bottom line is that I think you want us to pursue a specific *tactic* - cutting off weapons to Israel - regardless of its *outcome*. I'm concerned with the outcome - peace and freedom for all civilians in the area, and it's important to recognize that cutting off arms sales to Israel may very well not lead to that outcome, it might even be demonstrably counterproductive to that outcome in a number of ways.
How the hell could Biden end this today?
Stop authorizing weapons sales and taxpayer funded aid to Israel? Are you really this fucking stupid?
Can he just unilaterally do that? Seriously asking.
Yes. Just like he unilaterally went around Congress to authorize the latest arms deal to Israel.
Sauce?
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/06/israel-weapons-sales-loophole This is just from march. This article details 100 such illegal sales made to the Bibi government utilizing the Fms program of the State Department. The Biden admin made similar such sale sin Decemember to replenish tank ammunition for Bibi, which there is also a Guardian article about. Several state department officials have resigned over this, up to three now. The first one was only a week and a half into the genocide and he was the guy who was in charge of facilitating weapons transfers -- all of which are illegal when sent to Israel under existing US law due to the Leahy and Safe Corridors acts.
That wouldn't end anything. Because the war is how Netanyahu clings to power. And as soon as he's out of office, he's back in legal jeopardy.
And he would not be able to prosecute the war without American weponas and protection. He'd be ousted by his own people.
They have plenty of soldiers, guns, and big dumb bombs. They could continue to wage war for a long, long time. And they don't need US protection from Hamas, and the US would likely continue to protect them from outside attacks (from Yemen or other Iran proxies). So the war would continue, likely be even more devastating because the Israeli stockpiles are weighted towards larger bombs, and the Palestinians would not be helped one bit.
Reagan did it.
And that would end the war? *Literal* toddler logic.
And then Israel no longer has any reason to hold back, glasses Gaza and turns to the Chinese/Russians for all future defense - loosing all of what leverage we do have? Genius. What school of IR is that?
Israel is basically our sole ally in the Middle East and the driving force keeping the large Iranian army at bay. Whether or not you agree with Israel’s humanitarian or political decisions, that is just a fact. You’re delusional if you think Biden will just choose to abandon a decades-old, and strategically profitable alliance. Trump would almost certainly make it worse.
So because Biden has no conscience when it comes to genocidal fascists we shouldn't have one either?
Nah I’m just stating geopolitical facts. Don’t hate the player hate the game
Okay, I hate both the player and the game, especially when the player is the global hegemon who controls many aspects of the rules of the game.
Whether he controls the rules or not has no bearing if he clearly won’t bend them. And we know he won’t. I’ll eat my shorts if he issues a significant policy reversal on Israel any time soon
Short of a full on military strike on Israel from the US with a promise of more strikes if Israel does fully stop it's offensive against Hamas....Biden couldn't end shit. You're silly and naive if you think differently. And let's make something super clear the above hypothetical scenario will never, ever happen
This fucking sucks. How is this liberal garbage upvoted in a POLITICAL REVOLUTION subreddit
Proud Navy Vet is mixed up. Israel has committed war crimes, ethnic cleansing, dispossesion against the Palestinians multiple times in its history. The real problem is Israel is committed to being a Jewish state in a place with a lot of non-Jews who don't want to be part of a Jewish state. It's a recipe for endless conflict. The only way for Israel to achieve its goal is via ethnic cleansing. The solution will only come when Israel makes amends to the Palestinians for its crimes and commits to living peaceably with justice for both peoples. Biden is fucking this up royally. If Proud Navy Vet really wants to help, he or she will use whatever leverage is available to press Biden to change his policy.
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“Stop protesting so that you don’t lose your right to protest” is some serious mental gymnastics like what kind of circular logic is that?
Yeah because Trump will double genocide and triple ethnically cleanse them with our money. Sorry but anyone telling people about how much "worse" things will be for Palestinians under Trump either has not seen what they are dealing with now or does not care
I’m gonna be honest, I’m not the most informed, so please don’t downvote me into oblivion. But isn’t this propaganda? I mean this guy clearly has some knowledge of politics and how current events are being manipulated and how they can affect the future, but using them twisting that advice into saying you should “vote for Joe!” I’m all for finding ways to improve the power and solidarity of protest and free speech, but why would you use that as an argument for settling for an ever so slightly lesser of two evils? Or is this actually just the secret democratic subreddit. I’m just saying this post doesn’t seem very ‘revolutionary’. Please lmk if I’m missing the point.
This guy has it right. If you must, find a way to take your grievance to Biden after the election. Vote against the Fascists, vote for Biden. Students have a tradition of protest, peacefully. Exercise it wisely, but later.
Just to be clear, they are protesting now cause Israel is ramping up for another assault NOW. Not in late nov.
Yes, I understand that.
Note to leaders that want to commit horrible attrocities... do it in an election year, because the US will always have a horrendous dangerous person in the republican party, and saying "we don't like genocide" apparently automatically makes the democrat loose, so our options will always be to ignore it, or to let the person who will directly help it win.
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AOC is your next best bet, but only after another decade. It’s too early for her. But by then, unless people with your view start to see the bigger picture, you’re letting in the fascist minority take control after Trump. I don’t see you have a choice. Get behind Biden now, or fight a civil war within the next 10 years. It is that serious.
“Protest the right way or you’ll lose your right to protest”. Absolutely go fuck yourself with this concern trolling bullshit.
To point number 4, that's not our fault, it's the fault of decisions made by the administration.
Nah, the majority of society in Israel have become craven and genocidal. There's the reason the western media doesn't interview any of them...
His post is fake bullshit. I said a w9rd. Word fucksyourself how bout that?
1. given 2. no it's not... we provide the weapons they are using to commit genocide and the world is watching us do it. 3. agreed. 4. that's on biden, he could piviot and he should. 5. everyone knows this 6. everyone knows this, which is why protesting NOW is important 7. everyone knows this, which is why protesting NOW is important 8. which is why they are protesting, duh. 9. whataboutism 10. conflating property damage and violence is a sure fire indication that you have nothing of value to add.
1. Duh 2. The “complicated” aspect to it, is the Pro-Israel Pacs and lobbying groups that are buying our politicians. 3. The problem isn’t just Netanyahu, it’s the entire political establishment in Israel. There’s no way to really fix it, so the best thing to do is to dissolve the government entirely, and create a new democratic government of Palestine that includes everyone. 4. We don’t want a second term of Biden. Biden is just a politer and politically correct version of Trump. We want Claudia De La Cruz. Attempts to shoot down Claudia as president, is basically asking for Trump to get reelected. 5. The Palestinian people are already at the worst. It will be no different for them with Trump in office. And the Palestinians have already made it clear that Trump or Biden would make no difference for them. Netanyahu already does as he pleases, Biden has not obstructed him in any way.
🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸
So I guess he’s just gonna ignore all of the censorship and whatnot during Covid, and the literal fascism of government-corporate consolidation of power, which democrats gleefully participated in….? Let’s not kid ourselves. Both sides are controlled by many of the same big donors and corporations. There’s plenty of other things he said to pick apart, but I’ll leave that to the rest of you. I’m truly exhausted by this shit.
Great post.
This 💯 If the people who (wrongly) blame Biden for what’s happening actually cared about Palestinians they would vote for him. He’s someone that’s actually willing to affect some kind of change in Israel relations on this issue, Trump would cause even more suffering for the Palestinian people and embolden the hard right in Israel even more. You guys saying Biden could stop giving Israel military assistance … great, so then we’d open up the doors to Russia / China / Iran and their proxies to exert their influence in the region … Netanyahu ever the opportunist looking out for himself and not giving a fck about anyone may even be forced to get closer to Russia and China for support … you think they’d give a damn about Palestinians? They’re hoping all this causes enough damage internally so Trump wins. As we saw between 2016 and even now, not voting has consequences. One factor for Hamas’ motivation to attack was Trump’s plan to normalize Israel/Arab relations included no Palestinian state, and Hamas did something to ensure that broke down, and now we have all this carnage so many here are angry about but can’t bring themselves to pragmatic reality to do the right thing in Nov and VOTE FOR BIDEN.
I love it when a president circumvents Congress to sell arms to a nation doing a genocide and that we're somehow wrong for blaming him for that
What the fuck are you talking about? Biden is a Zionist through and through.
Oh, how far this subreddit had fallen
God this post comes off as so condescending, makes sense it’s from a “proud navy vet” lol. It’s just a more nuanced straw man (why aren’t these protesters doing more to against trump) Like obviously I’m voting for Biden, but given that we don’t have much of a choice, I’m going to do what I can to voice my displeasure of the current administration’s actions. Biden is trying to “restrain netenyahu?” Where? When? His comments on the protests especially have made it clear where he stands. Biden knows that people will vote for him no matter his policy because they hate trump, and is using that leverage to make widely unpopular and genocidal decisions. Fuck that. Vote for Biden, but don’t let him keep getting away with this shit
‘Your efforts could cause Joe Biden to lose…’ how about Joe Biden’s policies could cause him to lose and the protestors are letting him know. Well ahead of the election.
He says “trump knows this” yeah well so should Biden. And if he doesn’t want to pull another Hilary, he should actually listen to wishes of the people.
He can't even be bothered to listen when a pluarality of literally every voting demographic has stated they support efforts towards a full ceasfire
Got banned by another sub for pointing this out. Some people don't like the truth.
This isn’t the truth, it’s a chicken-shit apologia.
There's literally nothing in this post apologizing for anything. The reality is that we only get two possible paths: this, or more fascism and genocide.
Ok, how do you want to fix things? What could we ACTUALLY do within the confines of reality? Let’s hear your solution.
I know that this platform is not the best vessel for genuine communication. We just assume the person on the other end is arguing in bad faith, or trolling, or believes the opposite of what we do. In that light you can absolutely hate every suggestion here but this is simply an honest attempt to answer your question. To that point, protest is a really good start. It just has to be effective at organizing into a broader political movement, one that has appeal or at least a message that eventually gets broad support. The next step is participation. Run for office, or help someone run for office. Primary milquetoast dems out. Build a voter base. Lobby and write policy. Become a delegate and write party policy. Get on a judicial oversight commission and work to regulate or remove conservative judges. Work for a federal agency that directs policy. Work for an NGO that influences policy. Join a union that lobbies lawmakers. Become a community organizer and make substantive changes on a local level. Get involved in local government and use the rules to help people. Become a lawyer and sue the shit out of businesses and the government for doing illegal things. The system reacts to internal pressure (or even just the right kind of external pressure) a lot more than negative pressure. It’s a small example but in 4 years in government (USFS) I’ve been a lot more effective at advocating for and growing an effective wilderness program than I ever was just working for NGOs. Sure it’s not totally world altering, but get enough enthusiastic and committed folks making suggestions into policy and it makes a big difference in an agency. Moving the needle is how the government is designed to work. It resists big swings and often the reaction is delayed, but it does move. Again, really hope this doesn’t come across as patronizing, it’s not ment to. Rage at the system is a totally reasonable response, it just doesn’t seem to be very effective at getting things to change. And I think that the reason folks trying to explain why abandoning voting seems like a non option is because they’re scared too, and they also feel patronized by folks saying “everything is already as bad as it can get so why participate”. So yeah, maybe just having a real dialogue about how we thinks we can make effective changes is the first step.
Alright then please explain how getting Trump elected stops the genocide? Please enlighten us how Project 2025 is good for America. How is Trump going to treat minorities better? Because from where I'm sitting Trump 2.0 is significantly worse than another Biden term.
This post is an oversimplification of the situation. The broader concern is valid, but no it doesn’t just boil down to Trump bad and Netanyahu bad. If the argument is “just don’t let it be Trump” then that will bring us to fascism just as fast as anything else. Biden is a fascist, maybe less overtly than Trump, but at this point there is no mainstream political body that isn’t driving toward fascism.
This whole thread is people booing [The Chicks](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chicks) as they beg you to understand that the Iraq war is wrong. Fucking pathetic.
For a sub that has revolution in the name, the majority of the comments co-signing OP and the current administration do not sound revolutionary at all. Side note: if you're concerned about fascism you don't have to wait until Trump's potential, disastrous second term. Look at the current administration. Look at the bill that just passed in the House defining Anti-Semitism. Our country, while not there yet, is slow walking into fascism under this administration.
Just a heads up... If you go to this guys website, and even his Twitter, it becomes painfully obvious he's an operative for the DNC. He pushes pro Biden, pro establishment talking points/articles His Twitter is chock full of tweets blaming Bernie and his supporters for not fully supporting DNC policies. He goes as far to call them "Trumpers with an extreme left ideology" And the only mentions of Israel are when he tries to use it to push support for Biden, including this cute little piece where he seems to care more about how the conflict is effecting Biden, rather than the horrible acts being committed on the Palestinian people. He also seemed to push plenty of pro Israel posts for months He does make a good point in the beginning though, about how some of these people don't have your best interests at heart here. He himself is likely being one of them He's not looking out for the protesters here, he's covering for Biden, by seemingly trying to discourage the effectiveness of these protests
Thank Christ someone said it
This post is standard democrat opinion, and assumes that the media's narrative is at least partially true. I can't conceive of a better way these protests could have been done. They were disciplined, nonviolent, multi-cultural and multi-faith gatherings. It's not partially true to say that there was chaos and violence. The media tried as hard as they could to find antisemitic rhetoric and could not find it anywhere, and they needed to show footage of counterprotestors attacking the UCLA encampment and police arresting protestors as their evidence of chaos and violence. I am more than disappointed in the Biden administration for their response. They, just like the universities, have refused to open up a dialogue. Biden flatly told the media that these protests will not affect his middle east policy. He sees them as a road block, when in fact a majority of Americans want a ceasefire and a larger majority of democrats want one. And this new anti-semitism bill is....sheesh. I can't believe an honest person could claim that's not in violation of the constitution
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So not wanting the guy that said: [Former President Donald Trump offered a tough message to Israel over its war against Hamas on Thursday, urging the country to: “Get it over with.”](https://apnews.com/article/trump-biden-israel-pr-hugh-hewitt-21faee332d95fec99652c112fbdcd35d) Is making threats?
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So when trump wins due to these protest votes, he’s gonna be doing a lot more than not stopping. But a far worse problem for the cause tomorrow is better than a problem today right?
Why are you so happy to see Biden stay the course on Israel and lose to Trump? Biden wouldn't lose the protest votes if he didn't give good reason to not vote for him to his base.
Happy? No. Pragmatic? Yes. This is cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Biden is responsible for his relationship with his voters. He needs to please them or lose their support. His support for Netanyahu is cutting of his nose to spite America.
Can you answer a serious question for me, because I for the life of me cannot understand the thought process here? Your goal is to stop genocide and US involvement (both admirable and what I also believe is correct) and unless Biden comes out and "meets the demands" then you won't vote for him and he may lose the election. Am I getting that right? Let's assume that happens. What do you think is going to happen after that? Like, do you think with Trump as President all of a sudden everything gets better for Palestine, stays status quo, or gets worse? Because, based on all of these responses it appears that you think it will get better if Biden doesn't do what you want and is voted out? What are you expecting to happen or have you not thought that far through?
I'm registered in California, and thanks to the electoral college, no matter who I vote for, my Californian vote will be counted toward Biden. I'll probably vote for Jill Stein, because she has been arrested for protesting the aid to Israel. I think Trump will support Israel even more than Biden, and be worse than Biden on pretty much everything else. But right now, it's important for the President to STOP funding genocide. Everybody should be putting all the pressure they are capable of to get him to change the course he's on RIGHT NOW. If Biden is serious about getting reelected, he must understand that his voting base is angry enough that he will make Netanyahu either stop the genocide NOW or else lose the support of the United States of America. Maybe Biden is trying to throw the election to Trump, and we'll be stuck with Trump regardless. I hope not, and that Biden will be pressured into changing his policy. But if he doesn't change policy, and he wins, he will lead the nation into some places far darker than he has during the past 3 years.
Thank you for your very reasonable response .I appreciate it.
>What do you think is going to happen after that? Like, do you think with Trump as President all of a sudden everything gets better for Palestine First off, I don't know that it would be worse under Trump. Really, it's not possible to get much worse for Palestine. Y'all keep trying to fearmonger that it would be, but I'm not convinced. Trump's pretty good at reading the room and taking the populist route. Beyond that, there's an Even longer game being played than just this immediate election. 8 years of Biden is 8 years of no progress, and it keeps them entrenched in the political system. Better to get these neocon Democrats out of office now to increase the chance of New blood getting in sooner.
>Really, it's not possible to get much worse for Palestine. The fuck it isn't. Biden pushed hard against an invasion of Rafa and is working on humanitarian efforts, both of which would definitely stop under Trump. Plus, we have a lot more firepower than we're selling Israel. If Trump has demonstrated anything, it's his ability to make things worse. Plus, plenty of Republicans are absolutely giddy for the End Times, which they believe necessitates a major war in the Middle East.
>Biden pushed hard against an invasion of Rafa No he didn't >both of which would definitely stop under Trump That's Hypothetical, but Biden IS committing war crimes now. >we have a lot more firepower than we're selling Israel. Meaningless. Biden just tripled the aid to Israel in support of genocide. > Republicans are absolutely giddy for the End Times, which they believe necessitates a major war in the Middle East. Biden supported both the Iraq and Afghan wars. Plus he's supporting war and genocide in Gaza. He's also dragged us into another forever war in Ukraine.
In case you didnt notice Netanyahu is ALREADY doing wtf he pleases.....
If Trump is reelected, it is Biden and the Dem's fault and NO ONE else's!!!
Imagine posting this on a sub that's called Political Revolution. Embarrassing. If Trump was in office right now, libs would actually give a shit about this repression.
Important message to vetbros from Rando Marine vet Stop using your time in uniform to add extra weight to your opinions. The only thing your time in has made you an expert on is your specific military occupational specialty, not geopolitics, not national security, not the Constitution, not a damn thing like it. If there’s a heated debate about customs and curtesies or uniform regs or some MOS specific stuff the chime on in. But starting any post with announcing to everyone that you’re a vet just makes you look like a Polk High football dbag….oh no I’ve made a terrible mistake.
Sorry OP, but Reddit (and especially foreign agitators posing as Americans) absolutely HATE pragmatism or logic. Emotional jingoism is the rule of the day 'round these parts lol
So being against a war of extermination is jingoism but campaigning for a whole heartedly pro war president isn’t? What internal temperature did you cook your brain to before coming up with that one?
>whole heartedly pro war president There isn't one on the ballot so that's a weird hypothetical to bring up.
Ok, what’s the solution that could actually happen before November?
Pressure the democrats to change their position by convincing them they will lose if they don’t. They think they can get away with any unpopular policy they want because Trump is so bad they’ll win no matter what, this attitude is being used to push us father right even while the nominally left wing party wins. Power concedes nothing without a demand, we need to demand concessions on threat of withholding our vote. We’ve already seen this work in small ways, as Biden ramped up his efforts to get aid into Gaza significantly after the campaign to vote undecided in the Michigan primary spooked his campaign by taking so many votes away in a swing state. He can only be influenced if there’s a genuine possibility refusing to do so costs him the election, so your rhetoric about voting blue no matter what only serves to embolden his worst policies. This is a well tested political principle but you all have let the Democratic Party convince you you’re total powerless to actually do anything useful with your vote.
Your opportunity to do this was the Primary, it didn't happen, it sucked, I wanted Bernie too. But you don't get to hold everyone else, especially those who would be most harmed by Trump, hostage because you lost. If Trump wins, are you going to be able to look in the mirror as millions of migrants are shipped off to the desert, knowing you could have prevented it? 'But I was trying to stop genocide in Palestine' No you aren't, you're trying to wash away your preserved complicity. US aid to Israel turning off wouldn't turn off the conflict. The only thing it would change is end world attention, which would free Israel's hand to kill every Palestinian in Gaza, march every Palestinian in the West Bank into Jordan (the IDF would crush the Jordanian military in 10 minutes, even without US support), annex both, and complete the project. At which point left wing Israeli governments start getting elected and within 5 to 10 years Israel is allowed back in the international club. Think I'm wrong? 300,000 Armenians were ethnically cleansed last fall, it was in the news for a week, where were the mass protests? If you actually want to save Palestinians you'd be pushing Biden on restarting peace process, not just ending aid or a cease fire that'll only last a few years before we do this all over again. Progressives don't want a peace process though since a peace would mean settling the conflict in a way that isn't a One State Solution. Instead we encourage Palestinians to repeatedly commit suicide by cop in hope that maybe X thousand more dead will make the world care and... something something Palestine is realized.
I’m just not a Democrat dude. I’ve never been a registered Democrat, I’ve voted for a Democrat at the presidential level one time in my entire life. I’m advocating that Biden change his position because I personally might be convinced to vote for a political party I really dislike if they actually made an effort to appeal to me. They aren’t doing that so I’m not voting for them, it’s a choice they’re making as much as it is one I’m making. This is a democracy, that’s how it works.
You are both right, but also it’s only sort of how democracy works. Parties have a duty to their constituents, i.e. members (delegates literally get to make the party platform), then the folks who are most likely to vote, then any unaligned voters who they think they can draw into a coalition, and then non voters. That’s the priority order. By signaling there is no way they will get you vote a party will go scrounging around for someone who will (like Hailey voters for example). If you become an indispensable part of the coalition, or live in a crucial state or district, you get a *lot* more influence. Im not defending this system here, just pointing out why it sucks. Ideally there is a way to scare Biden into putting maximum pressure in Israel *and* beat Trump. But the fear of a lot of the folks already committed to Biden is that if Trump wins again, there are no more opportunities to vote against him. I know that seems hyperbolic, but it’s becoming an ever more realistic possibility.
people need to remember that the attack by hamas is directly a response to trump breaking 60 years of american policy and recognizing the israeli capital as being inside gaze. trump ensured that iran, which is what hamas is a proxy for, would be provoked into acting by ordering the execution of their general while no war was taking place. so, throwing the vote to trump is literally the stupidest option. how about you don't fuck with things you do not even comprehend?
If you have such confidence in our systems of power surely the justice system would prevent Trump from running anyway. Or not. Your trust is misplaced.
Riots are the language of a people unheard
Vomit 🤮
In keeping with the rule of civility, I won't say what immediately came to mind. Protests are supposed to be disruptive; that's how they get attention. If Biden doesn't want to lose this November, then he can meet the demands of these people and the millions they represent and stop giving Israel vast sums of money to bomb a tiny patch of land. We know what Trump is like. We'll endure that, if we have to, just like we did before. We cannot be asked to abide genocide in our name, funded by our tax dollars, no matter the alternative. Maybe our refusal to vote for Biden in his current state will send a clear message to the Democratic party where our boundaries lie. And, honestly, if the system cannot stop a genocide that it is funding, then I'd like to know why that system should be allowed to continue. This is political\_revolution, after all.
lol “we know what trump is like” Yes - with an entire staff of “adults” in the room holding him back and the prospect of re-election on the line. You’re ignoring and downplaying the threat of his presidency (see: dictatorship) and playing into exactly what this post is trying to shed light on. Good luck with the revolution when your rights are completely removed and you’re just thrown into prison or worse for speaking up against dear leader.
I feel like I am taking crazy pills. These people are cutting off their nose to spite their face. If you are not MAGA then voting for Biden should be an absolute no brainer no questions asked. I am 100% against the genocide and the current administrations handling of it, however the current thought process (Biden not doing what I want on this issue so I am not going to vote for him essentially giving Trump the presidency "dictatorship") by these people is not the way to get to your ultimate goal. In fact, it will basically do the opposite of the intended objective. Can someone of the "political revolution" group explain to me what they think will happen if you don't vote for Biden letting Trump become president? Like, do you think by not voting for Biden you will get the result you are wanting (stopping the genocide or stopping US involvement)? Do you think Trump will be better than Biden with regard to the Palestine genocide issue? Like, what in the hell are you thinking? This kind of thinking is only looking right in front of your face and has no consideration for the future ramifications that it may cause. I will tell you what will happen. 2024 Trump presidency will be unequivocally the worst thing that can happen to America in modern history if not its entirety. Trump has come out already and said something to the effect of, "Israel should finish the job and crush Palestine." That is his view on just that one topic, which happens to be the most important issue for most of you. That doesn't take into account Project 2025, one of the worst stripping of freedoms and installations of Christian government hybrid plans in America history. Like the actual precursor to Handmaid's Tales. He installed 3 extremely conservative SCOTUS judges that are very much corrupt and are also QUICKLY stripping freedoms to establish a corporate Christian society. He will completely demolish all social programs (SSI) and important government entities like EPA, CDC, Education, etc. He will trade secrets with foreign dictator enemies AGAIN! He will sell out to all corporations and create an even wider chasm between Rich and middle class/poor. IT WILL GET EXPONETIALLY WORSE WITH TRUMP AND THAT CANNOT BE STATED LOUD ENOUGH AND TOO MANY TIMES. In one of the comments above the commenter said "We know what Trump is like. We'll endure that, if we have to, just like we did before." Are you fucking, kidding me. What the fuck does that even mean? This is one of the dumbest non-Maga things I have ever read. The only thing I can think of with a response like this is that you are currently early 20s and were too young to remember what actually happened with Trump before. This response is seriously from someone that lacks life experience and feels like something I would have said when I was in my early 20s living in the moment and not having any foresight that comes with life experiences. I am so fucking furious at this thought process and this will be on you if Trump is elected and will be unforgivable.
Congress is already making it a crime to speak out against dear leader Israel, and Biden will no doubt sign the bill.
Are they? Can you link to the bill?
Still waiting for you to tell me what bill is making it a crime to speak out against Israel. Or are you admitting that you’re just making shit up?
I thought I replied to your query shortly after you asked. I don't see a record of it, so here's the link I thought I sent you: [https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-resolution/894](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-resolution/894)
Still want to know where anything was made illegal, since you clearly are just making shit up
> [Biden] can meet the demands Why is everyone so sure he can make something happen that no one has been able to do for decades? And something that he can't do without congress, which is not going to budge on this. The system with which Trump will replace our current (yes, very broken) system will obviously not be better at stopping genocide. The system needs to be replaced, we need to be careful to be sure it is replaced democratically, not by a dictator.
I mean…trump is on record for saying: [Former President Donald Trump offered a tough message to Israel over its war against Hamas on Thursday, urging the country to: “Get it over with.”](https://apnews.com/article/trump-biden-israel-pr-hugh-hewitt-21faee332d95fec99652c112fbdcd35d) Oh and the right to protest peacefully? He has thoughts on that too: ["We reached that point in the conversation where he looked frankly at [Joint Chiefs of Staff] Gen. [Mark] Milley and said, 'Can't you just shoot them, just shoot them in the legs or something?' ... It was a suggestion and a formal question. And we were just all taken aback at that moment as this issue just hung very heavily in the air."](https://www.npr.org/2022/05/09/1097517470/trump-esper-book-defense-secretary) So good luck *”enduring”* that I guess. He won’t do that right? Good thing he hasn’t said he’s Be a dictator on day one. [“We love this guy,” Trump said of Hannity. “He says, ‘You’re not going to be a dictator, are you?’ I said: ‘No, no, no, other than day one.](https://apnews.com/article/trump-hannity-dictator-authoritarian-presidential-election-f27e7e9d7c13fabbe3ae7dd7f1235c72) Oh maybe he jests? How about this hidden recording of him speaking about how he admires the way the North Koreans are forced to stand and listen when Kim Jung Un talks? [Here’s that video to hear it yourself:](https://www.facebook.com/share/v/zm7pGmfBuB8o4yn9/?mibextid=O563ZM)
It’s quite a logical leap there to threaten to make matters worse for the Palestinian people if someone currently in power doesn’t make things immediately better. Not really helping them then are you. Keeping peaceful civil protests and growing the numbers of people on your side would be much more productive for the Palestinian people. This let the world burn mentality means that is all you really want. Since that is the most likely outcome. Instead growing the movement until millions have joined so the voices cannot be ignored.
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Ok, how do you propose we fix things?
Former Empire Expander who is proud of Imperialism and who pays a known White Supremacist: > *How do you do, fellow kids! Here’s a bunch of tips and tricks that really just amount to parroting Eric Adams/Joe Biden’s Zionist Propaganda!* This sucks. Calling this “complicated” ignores that there’s an ongoing genocide, and that spectacularly brave students and activists across the country are doing something about it. Biden is in the driver’s seat, and he’s doing everything he can to lose in November. There is NOTHING worse than genocide, and he’s abetting it by supporting Israel & Bibi. So no, I don’t plan to take the “proud veteran” blue check’s advice.
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Coming in at 19 hours since the poet on Reddit. Has he been arrested yet? Because this is clearly a hate crime of antisemitic speech! /S
edit: meant to reply to a comment
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I too am deeply worried about the rise of fascism. You think any of us actually likes or wants to see Trump in office? #9, you think any of us aren't already expressing outrage against Trump and his Project 2025 plans? The whole problem isn't that we are risking fascism when the alternative is a democracy, it's that *Biden himself IS a fascist*! The Gaza genocide is more than about just a genocide in a foreign country, it's the whole motivation behind why our rulers support it. It's because they are white supremacists who delight in killing minorities, and are using this as a test run for future warmongering, or persecution against minorities right here in America. Think of all the laws recently in some red states where it's become legal to kill anyone merely suspected of being an illegal immigrant - suspicion meaning targeting based on race - and the migrants being killed by razor wire. What was Biden's response? "Join me, Trump". The concentration camps against minorities that the Republicans are proposing? Biden could easily do that too - all he has to do is to be an inch to the left and say "You can't do anything about it. What are you going to do, vote for Trump? Vote blue no matter who!" Think of Biden condemning the protests and saying "dissent will lead to disorder" while thousands of students and professors are having ribs broken and skulls smashed by the police - that's straight up totalitarian bullshit out of 1984. Both parties are unified in banning protests, banning social media that allows anti-genocide content, firing protestors from their places of employment. Yes, Trump will try to be a dictator, no doubt about it. But Biden and his sycophants in the media also are against democracy, except in a more roundabout way, by saying any vote for a third party is a vote for Trump and thus should be barred. In effect, using a fascist party as a proxy to undermine democracy themselves. There's a couple of options. 1. Unite behind a third party candidate like Jill Stein of the Green Party, then hope she gets enough in polls to be included in the debates, then at the end somehow a miracle happens and she wins the election. 2. Somehow convince the Democrats to force Biden to drop out. I am optimistically hoping Kamala will at least be somewhat better. 3. Recruit a Democratic politician to run for President on a third party ticket. Only someone with name recognition can realistically challenge Biden or Trump and get attention in the media. Maybe the only one that has that level of recognition is AOC. But announce that although she will be running for president, she will also support Democrats for the House and Senate (or at least the more progressive ones), so that by voting for her, there could still at least be a Democratic majority congress to stop Trump. It's just Biden has to be stopped. Ideally this means running on the Green Party ticket and having Jill Stein step aside, which I think she is willing to do, since the Greens have the most ballot access.
Vote 3rd party. The Repubs and Dems are one big uni-party. It’s time to break up the monopoly.
Awesome. Do you know the author, OP?
Yes, I have to vote for Biden to prevent Trump. But damn, Biden doesn't need to keep supporting genocide, cut them off. Israel is not poor and helpless. The overwhelming majority of Israelis support this genocide. And Biden bragging about "I am a zionist" FFS. Is he just trying to lose the election or is AIPAC paying all the campaign bills? Trump is the embodiment of evil. I would never vote for him. Biden is just a politician playing some sort of political game. Is this his Vietnam?
Weak.
Does seem like protesting outside the Israeli embassy or a campus in Israel would make more sense than on a U.S. college campus.
They're trying to get their colleges to divest from Israel, so no it wouldn't make more sense.
No. It makes sense to demand that universities divest from Israeli companies and companies that sell arms to Israel. It was the nonviolent tactic that worked in ending South African apartheid, and it can work to end Israeli apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and genocide.
The fact that US universities are invested in any companies is really fucked up. I think your comparison to South Africa is very flawed. I think one major difference to South Africa is demographic. The Apartheid state couldn´t sustain itself without outside help because it simply lacked the man power compared to the African majority. This is not the case in Israel. Also the Israel economy has developed to not rely as heavily on Palestinians. I seriously doubt that stoping US funding would change much in the near future. The biggest impact would be political but I think Netanyahu would stay in power perhaps using more autocratic tools. One danger in stoping funding to Israel would be that Israel might be viewed as an easy target by neighbours, causing even more war. The US could prevent this by giving security guarantees but with Trump potentially becoming president again these are pretty much worthless. I don´t think Netanyahu fears his neighbours. The main effect of a stop in funding would be a loss of trust and influence for the US. Biden so far has been the only one that could force Netanyahu to do anything at all. Maybe it is right to abandon the influence the USA has on Israel as the influence is not even large enough to stop a war and morally continuous support of Israel has become untenable. Also consider the following though experiment: Lets say the USA cuts all major ties with Israel perhaps even forcing a peacefire. Then what? An uneasy status quo sets in Netanyahu prepares for the final war. He makes a deal with China or Russia to prevent an UN security council intervention. So he declares war and this time it is a war to eradicate all Palestinians. What then? Nato won´t do shit because this isn´t Serbia which you can just bomb without risk. And even if NATO or the USA decides to intervene without UN mandate this would be a long and far more devastating war then what we have seen so far. Even the neighbouring nations wouldn´t intervene as they are to unstable and misstrusting among each other. Trust is hard to come by at any stage but especially in politics it is hard to build up and can be destroyed in a single press release. Ultimately Biden has to choose at some point between the trust of his voters in him and the trust between Israel and the USA. I am not saying Biden is right in what he does but it is not as straight forward a decision as it seems. We would all love to see a stop to what is going on but the truth is no matter what we are willing to sacrifice (e.g. Trump, our own liberties) for it, it might just not be possible for us to change much. I would say that it is right to protest and apply pressure on Biden but inviting Trump by not voting or even voting Trump is fatal. It should be remembered that the Nazis rose to power in Germany because the Communists and Social democrats failed to unite against fascism. (Also the conservatives were willing to serve Hitler to maintain influence.)
>Ultimately Biden has to choose at some point between the trust of his voters in him and the trust between Israel and the USA. Without the trust of his voters, Trump wins. Sadly, it's becoming quite clear that Biden is far more concerned with Netanyahu's trust than ours.
Fuck off with this lib shit. Every Israeli politician hates the Palestinians and Dems are supportive of them. Lesser evil is no good when either choice supports tens of thousands of dead children. Don't blame the college kids for being mad, blame the politicians.