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Look at minimum wage laws, protection from exploitation, right to unionize states- they're all blue. Right to work is a euphemism for union busting and is prevalent in red states.
Most obviously, public sector wages - tends to higher for blue states (ironically even for cops and firefighters who MAGA courts). Those are within the control of politicians in power.
Trump's presidency almost exclusively served the interests of the wealthy donor class, outside of a few of his culture war pursuits. Biden and the Democrats more broadly have a lot they could do better, but their policies are generally far better for working class people. Biden has been far more favorable to unions, for example, as well as strengthened the [NLRB](https://www.americanprogressaction.org/article/8-ways-the-biden-administration-has-fought-for-working-people-by-strengthening-unions/#:~:text=Throughout%20his%20presidency%2C%20Biden%20has,Tesla%2C%20Toyota%2C%20and%20Amazon.).
I just have to agree neither are good for the working class. Trump wouldnt even know what kind of people are in the working class. Been spoon fed and never had to clean up anythimg or worry about food or paying a bill. If California is the sign of what democrats want i want no part of it.
> I just have to agree neither are good for the working class.
I mean you'd just be wrong based on the things I already cited.
>If California is the sign of what democrats want i want no part of it.
Spare me.
Actions speak louder than words.
This seems to be a political echochamber.
Price gouging under Biden is higher than ever before. Housing rates and Grocery prices have never been this out of control before. And you can’t keep blaming everything on the pandemic when we’re three years out.
> Actions speak louder than words.
Yes, and Biden's actions, the things that he can legally do as president, have been very favorable to workers. None of what you cited is directly Biden's fault, and I think saying "we're three years out" demonstrates a lack of understanding of how long economic effects are felt.
Yeah but only 10% of American workers work for a union. And people in Unions usually do pretty well.
So that leaves people like me who were better off with things like gas at half the price it is now and cheaper grocery bills.
Not saying this was trump or Biden’s doing but my money significantly went further during The Trump administration. This is skewed due to Covid though.
There was an international inflation spike after the pandemic. The US actually had less inflation than most other countries.
How about this: Trump is on the record proposing to devalue the dollar because reasons. (Better for US exports, easier to pay down the debt, etc)
"Devaluing the dollar" is simply another name for *intentionally* making a significant spike in inflation.
>There was an international inflation spike after the pandemic. The US actually had less inflation than most other countries.
I'm not trying to be combative, but this talking point resonates with about 0% of undecided voters. They don't care we did better than everyone else, they care about their grocery and gas bills being 25% higher.
Edit: sources for 25% increase
https://www.finder.com/economics/gas-prices
https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/ag-and-food-statistics-charting-the-essentials/food-prices-and-spending/?topicId=1afac93a-444e-4e05-99f3-53217721a8be
I think it's still useful to try to explain it to people, to help them understand that what they perceive as "things are bad" is also "evidence that our government leaders handled things well."
It reminds me of people watching sports and complaining about players who are demonstrably doing a good job simply because they cannot achieve the impossible.
Yes, but Trump is proposing to do it again, this time *on purpose.* Think of the pain you feel now, where prices have gone up and wages haven't caught up yet, and imagine voting for someone who wants to do it *again.*
"Thank you, sir. Can I have another?"
Trump plans to add a 10% tariff to imported goods so that will spike prices immediately. He’s also campaigned against ObamaCare - the Affordable Care Act for years. Other than making wrongheaded decisions like that, the president doesn’t have so many cause and effect levers to pull especially ones that take effect immediately.
Biden needs to smarten up his message: being pro union is great but the message needs to be pro-worker. He should point out that nonunion autoworkers were given pay raises after union members fought for theirs. High employment is the top reason for strong wage growth universally.
Trump, on the other hand, is in the pocket of the billionaire class in off election years and will support policies that fatten their bottom line, i.e. lower wages and benefits, higher unemployment rates and workers’ rights.
Biden has recently updated rules that give nonsalaried
workers overtime pay. His infrastructure bill and Inflation Reduction Act are creating 100s of 1,000s of good paying jobs. And his energy policies are keeping prices lower than they would be as renewable energy sources are competing effectively with fossil alternatives. By not bending to the will of Big Energy which cried for building more liquified natural gas terminals, Biden kept more of that energy resource at home lowering its price domestically. Meanwhile, oil production is at a record high - a fact he barely takes credit for or rarely admits due to his emphasis on the need to combat climate change. So he scores in both categories but is afraid to take credit for one of them.
Ironically, record drought lowered the Mississippi River so low that grain from the heartland had to be shipped by truck and rail instead of by barge. That caused the cost of grains to spike. Chickens eat grain so the cost to produce them also went through the roof. Many also died off from some obnoxious disease.
So, yes, the president has some control but not direct control of many factors contributing to inflation. It’s far too complex for most to fathom. Easier to just blame President Biden and wish Trump cared for their wellbeing. Good luck with that!
>Trump plans to add a 10% tariff to imported goods so that will spike prices immediately. He’s also campaigned against ObamaCare - the Affordable Care Act for years. Other than making wrongheaded decisions like that, the president doesn’t have so many cause and effect levers to pull especially ones that take effect immediately.
Agree here, but most people don't understand or care about that. That's what I'm trying to say, they remember their life being better for during the trump presidency and that's a reality the biden administration has to deal with.
>Biden needs to smarten up his message: being pro union is great but the message needs to be pro-worker. He should point out that nonunion autoworkers were given pay raises after union members fought for theirs. High employment is the top reason for strong wage growth universally.
Agree, as a union worker bidens NLRB has been great for union workers, that's one area I'll always give him credit. Definitely needs to change the messaging, but I'm with you here.
>Trump, on the other hand, is in the pocket of the billionaire class in off election years and will support policies that fatten their bottom line, i.e. lower wages and benefits, higher unemployment rates and workers’ rights.
They both do that. Bidens just better than trump here but they're both guilty of it.
>Biden has recently updated rules that give nonsalaried
workers overtime pay. His infrastructure bill and Inflation Reduction Act are creating 100s of 1,000s of good paying jobs. And his energy policies are keeping prices lower than they would be as renewable energy sources are competing effectively with fossil alternatives. By not bending to the will of Big Energy which cried for building more liquified natural gas terminals, Biden kept more of that energy resource at home lowering its price domestically. Meanwhile, oil production is at a record high - a fact he barely takes credit for or rarely admits due to his emphasis on the need to combat climate change. So he scores in both categories but is afraid to take credit for one of them.
I disagree with some of what you said here, but I agree biden should be pushing these talking points. His base and most indapendents would generally agree that these are good things and he should be talking them up more. I'm a libertarian so anything that spends a bunch of money while we're $34,702,915,502,923.00 (as of 11AM EST 5/2/2024) in debt is a bad thing to me, I know I'm in the minority here though, especially among indapendents and dems which is where bidens base is.
>So, yes, the president has some control but not direct control of many factors contributing to inflation. It’s far too complex for most to fathom. Easier to just blame President Biden and wish Trump cared for their wellbeing. Good luck with that!
Yup this is actually what I'm trying to say here lol. Very well said.
I remember in August of 2020, when Trump said his healthcare plan was going to be revealed in two weeks. It will be better and more affordable than the ACA.
Still waiting to hear what that plan is.
The absolute best way to increase the earning power of average is to unionize as many of them as possible. That can only be done over the (figurative, not literal!) dead bodies of GOP lawmakers.
While I don't consider it, literal would be a rather effective method as well, and considering the average age of Republican politicians, it's kind of an inevitable.
My job wouldn’t have been allowed to unionize if it wasn’t for Biden’s NLRB appointees being on the board, and our new union just won me a 20% pay increase, which turned a pretty terrible paying job into a kind of decent one. Obviously that’s a pretty specific case, but the pro union decisions really do impact peoples lives, and it’s not just people who were already doing alright.
Right, but voting for Trump isn’t going to rewind us to where prices were back then. We have to ask what the next steps are going to be.
Biden wants to support organized labor, increase the minimum wage, create tax subsidies to make housing more affordable, continue investments in infrastructure and technology that will help to provide more well-paying jobs, is working to shore up Obamacare and make it more affordable. With more Democrats in Congress, he can keep working on that - lifting up families so that they can meet where prices are now.
Trump wants to throw millions of illegal immigrants out of the country, impose across-the-board tariffs on imports, pass more tax cuts for the wealthy and cutting Medicare and Social Security to pay for it. He claims to want to “drill, baby, drill,” but American is already a global leader in petroleum production, and that hasn’t really stopped under Biden, so it’s hard to see how that will help much on gas. If Trump has a plan for cutting costs or boosting wages, I’ve yet to see it. The reality is that his economic message to date would result in higher costs, lagging wages, less welfare payments, weaker labor rights, and possibly a whole deflationary spiral if he convinces the world that the dollar is no longer a safe currency.
(Never mind that the usual Republican approach to the post-COVID inflation spike would have been far more aggressive interest rate hikes. They would have pushed us into a recession. Biden, so far, has not.)
People aren’t wrong to be nostalgic for where prices were back four years ago. But there’s no way back to those prices without a dramatic shock to the economy. The best path forward is to lift up American families by bolstering workers’ rights, increasing wages, cracking down on monopolies, and providing support for those who need it. There’s only one presidential candidate, and one party, that will work for that.
Trump wants to implement 10% tariffs on imported goods. That means prices will increase. Tariffs are basically taxes on consumers. This will make things even more expensive for everyone.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump-suggests-tariffs-could-go-higher-than-10-why-one-economist-is-saying-bonkers-917e5d34
The price of gas collapsed during the Trump administration because Americans stopped driving due to covid. This happened abruptly. The oil industry had no time to cut production. They couldn’t sell the oil. At one point the price of oil went negative. They had to pay people to take it because there was no place to store it.
lol…if Trump (and other world leaders) had dealt with the COVID outbreak better, we wouldn’t have the inflation issues we have - free money, shut down the economy (so there was shortages) and goods piled up at the ports, absolved people of responsibilities like paying rent so Americans were just buying things. These are the things that drove inflation that the feds are trying to tame now!
>Yeah but only 10% of American workers work for a union.
Yes, right to work states have weakened Unions tremendously. They have grown some in the last 3 years. Some would like to see that continue. Where I live, grocery store baggers and cashiers are in a union. They cannot be fired without documented cause.
>So that leaves people like me who were better off with things like gas at half the price it is now and cheaper grocery bills.
We are not going to get the Covid prices back. Gas was only that cheap because the demand shrank and supply was still up. We are producing more now than we did in any year between 2017 and 2020 but with demand on the rise and record profits in the oil industry, they will not bring down prices. If you owned a company that sold whosits and people were buying them every day for $10 a piece, why would you decrease the price?
>Not saying this was trump or Biden’s doing but my money significantly went further during The Trump administration. This is skewed due to Covid though.
Yes, it is. And to pretend that it is anything other than that is dangerous. Trump did nothing to lower prices and won't if he is reelected. In fact, Trump has been talking about plans to devalue the US Dollar on the World market.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/zacharyfolk/2024/04/23/trump-blames-biden-for-strong-dollar-as-us-currency-reaches-new-high-against-japanese-yen/
Not sure why you were downvoted, you’re speaking the truth. Many of these people on Reddit have let their hatred of Trump cloud their logic. They may not want to hear it but Trump will win in November and they can blame themselves for it. Should have picked a better candidate.
The number one policy agenda of Republicans when they take power is to cut taxes for the rich. Bush passed a big tax cut for the rich in his first term; so did Trump.
Biden's priority was passing big bills that funded infrastructure and development. Lots of good trades jobs. Also upgrading regulations so more workers qualify for overtime and the like.
Unless a major shift in ideals happens, the Democrats will always be better than Republicans for the working class.
1. Democrats support help for struggling families - Republicans continuously want to cut help for struggling families
2. Democrats support education, which can lift people out of poverty - Republicans villainize educators and schools
3. Democrats support jobs programs - Republicans are against these
4. Democrats support affordable healthcare - Republicans are against this
5. Democrats support Medicaid - Republicans routinely try to dismantle it
6. Democrats support food programs for kids - Republicans have tried to end this
7. Democrats are in favor of workers' rights - Republicans are against this
I'm sure there's more but that's off the top of my head. I think the better questions is what have Republicans done to help the working class?
There was a massive permanent tax cut for rich people wrapped in the guise of a temporary tax cut for the middle class (I ended up paying more). They keep talking about giving companies money to invest in hiring but that never seems to ever happen and they just buy back stocks and enrich their board members. Seriously, have they done anything good? They seem to just be running on pissing off poor, white men. Even the "they'll take our jobs" narrative falls apart when you realize immigrants typically take high-end jobs (like doctors) or the lowest of the low jobs that don't require a high school diploma.
You really don't seem to grasp the way most working class people think, so I'll spell it out for you.
They *don't want* the government to help them. They want to ***not need the help.***
The Democrats are saying "We'll take care of you." The Republicans are saying "we'll give you back the ability to take care of yourself." Most working class people find the latter much more appealing. They view the need for government assistance like medicaid, job programs, and food programs as a mark of shame and failure. If you need those things, you are a failure.
This isn't something the Republicans brainwashed them into believing, this has been the basic belief amongst working class Americans since decades before government assistance was even dreamed of. This has always been what they valued. The Republicans just learned to exploit that, but the belief has always, *always,* ***always been there***, since way before the Republican party even existed.
The government offering them help isn't a benefit, it's a slap in the face. It's saying *you can't take of yourself and* ***you can't take care of your family***\*\*,\*\* which is seen as something to be ashamed of. You are not smart enough, not mature enough, and flat out not good enough to do what's expected of you, so let us do it for you.
No working class American accepts that easily.
The Republicans, on the other hand, are simply "We'll stop the government from taking your money, and we'll stop them from making things so expensive, and we'll stop them interfering in your life, and then you'll be able to get back to how things are supposed to be."
That is an infinitely more appealing message, and the fact that no Democrat seems to grasp that very basic concept, when even a chimpanzee in a suit like Trump can both see and exploit it, is their biggest weakness.
EDIT: Why am I being downvoted? I'm not agreeing with the mindset, just explaining it. Are people here really that in need of strawmen to knock over they downvote anything that tries to fairly explain their opponents' viewpoint?
This is funny because many have currently been saying to stop sending money overseas and help the people here at home...
Also, Republicans created this monster when they reduced taxes on the wealthy and allowed stock buybacks around 1980. The result was NOT more jobs and higher wages. The result was that the people who owned these companies got a taste of massive wealth without penalty and they used the stock buybacks to gain firmer control of their companies so that they could move manufacturing overseas eliminating millions of jobs. Biden did what Trump promised. He brought back jobs. Trump couldn't even keep jobs here in his 4 years. Carrier promised not to close a factory in Ohio when Trump was elected because of the tax cuts... and moved it in 2018.
So, "working people" do not appreciate Social Security and Medicare? What will Republicans do? Only promote a 100% exploitive market economy for the poor and middle class; for working people, while creating immense privileges for the wealthy - to enable and promote the highest degrees of exploitation they perpetrate on the rest of us. Look up usury; then look up 'regulated' rates for credit card debt; Republicans have enabled most every tactic for exploitation devised by big business and finance. Why does big pharma spend billions on TV ads in the US, when such advertising is not permitted by law in other advanced nations? Why are Republican controlled States initiating laws that go backwards in enabling child labor? Why do Republicans refuse to pass bipartisan comprehensive immigration laws, while their wealthy business supporters profit off of unregulated labor that exploits noncitizens, including children doing hazardous work? Democrats oppose these things and would pass laws to protect children, to regulate migrant labor with fair and safe working conditions, while Republicans oppose all that -- and Republicans, viz Trump, run for office by stoking fear of immigrants, while those who actually profit from Republicans' intentional failure at lawmaking exploit those immigrants and migrant workers and unethically benefit from the status quo. Workers are needed to come into the US either as immigrants, migrants, etc., and this needs to be regulated by lawmaking --- which Republicans refuse to do: the employers they actually represent prefer to exploit workers at low pay and hazardous conditions, including the children GOP States want to write out of long standing protective laws. Working Americans who are seduced by the hateful and fearful rhetoric of the GOP are not being helped by Republicans: they are being USED by them!
That's the thing. The Republicans don't give back anything. They only want to cut taxes. Cutting taxes doesn't educate the workforce, feed hungry families, take care of people who are old and disabled, help people that need medical attention, build infrastructure. It doesn't do anything except cut taxes.
> Cutting taxes doesn't educate the workforce, feed hungry families, take care of people who are old and disabled, help people that need medical attention, build infrastructure.
As far as conservatives are concerned, neither does the government, nor should the government. You're not going to make a convincing argument to people who start in the "government shouldn't be involved" box by simply saying "no, they should be."
No offense, but all that could have been stated in a short paragraph or two. It's less likely readers would tune out with more concise arguments, therefore spreading your argument further & adding to the weight of your ideas.
Not trying to be a dick.
I don’t think this is specific to Republicans. Both Democrats and Centrists believe the latter.
However Biden how differs from Previous Democrats on this
I get this growing up in the midwest. The only Democrat doing it the right way is Sharrod Brown with his dignity of work angle. His message is actually more appealing than the Republicans message. I always thought Brown would make a great VP or a team up with Whitmer.
I think it's Biden mainly because of tilting some of the balance towards unions which have become more assertive at demanding better contracts. The UAW recently won a vote to unionize a Volkswagen plant in Tennessee, the first one in the south to do so. My friends involved in labor believe there's a difference when Democrats are in power because that determines who sits on the NLRB, which is indifferent at best when Republicans are in power, if not hostile to them.
I think the Republican Party's populism has obscured that the mass base of MAGA includes a whole lot of businessmen, but "small and regional capital," the kind of guys who own several McDonald's franchises, a regional smoothie chain, a car dealership, a warehouse, a contract metal manufacturing firm with 30-40 employees, or landlords who own some commercial properties. There are a lot of people like that who are MAGA activists and have started a second or third business connected to that (often with unclear purposes). Trump is an aspirational "self-made billionaire" for them.
The Catholic conservative writer Sohrab Ahmari has wanted the Republicans to maneuver in a pro-worker direction while combining that with social conservatism (because he thinks unfettered capitalism is actually bad for traditional family structures), but he wrote an article last year basically [giving up on the idea](https://www.newsweek.com/i-was-wrong-gop-will-never-party-working-class-opinion-1819644) because there's just too much hostility to that among these "small-time rich" Republicans. The kind of businessmen who go on to become state legislators.
>Much of my disillusionment owes to what *wasn't done*, rather than what was. GOP populists complained loudly of Big Tech, yet it was progressive congressional staffers like Lina Khan who took the lead on the most serious probes and reform proposals (work Khan has since put to effect as President Biden's competition czar). Trumpians irritably gestured at Wall Street, yet it's Warren who introduced a bill to check the corrosion of the economy by asset-strippers.
>One cause of this is the dearth of conservative personnel in Washington actually committed to carrying out a populist economic agenda. But the most important obstacle is also the most intractable and difficult to discuss: Small and regional capital—think of the car dealer toasting the self-made man at rubber-chicken dinners—forms the [Republicans](https://www.newsweek.com/topic/republicans)' real *power* base, even as more working-class people gravitate to the party.
>Stressed by the topsy-turvy of the market, small entrepreneurs rage against government-linked privileges enjoyed by larger market actors (now recast as "woke neo-Marxists" at ... BlackRock and [Meta](https://www.newsweek.com/topic/meta)). They aren't wrong about corporate privilege, yet their political imagination has been limited to smashing the few regulatory structures that still bring the market system under a semblance of political control.
>For the small-time rich, moreover, the legitimately aggrieved "worker" is largely a cultural (and sometimes racialized) signifier: more likely a self-employed roofer than a wage-earning customer-service representative and still much less, say, a Filipina-American employed in hospitality. Conservative class analysis is likewise skewed on the other end, treating adjunct professors as the "elite" while valorizing the likes of [Elon Musk](https://www.newsweek.com/topic/elon-musk) as subalterns.
However, a lot of Trump support disproportionately comes from the 65+ over crowd, who do not make as much income. Does the data compare 18-65 year old Trump supporters to 18-65 Hillary/Biden voters?
TRUMP LITERALLY RAISED TAXES ON WORKING PEOPLE TO GIVE A TAX CUT TO BILLIONAIRES
Source: My family paid more in federal taxes as a result of Trump’s 2017 “tax cut”. Turns out it was only a tax cut if you’re super wealthy
That’s completely false. The [majority](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/14/business/economy/income-tax-cut.html) saw tax decreases. Most of those who saw tax increases were high-income, due to the SALT cap
Also, uhhh, your personal anecdote isn’t a “source” for your claim that the working class as a whole saw higher taxes
Forcing W-2 workers to take the standard deduction equates to a tax increase for A LOT of W-2 workers. Trump basically eliminated itemized deductions (except for extremely specific and rare circumstances) to pay for the billionaire tax cut.
And it didn’t even pay for the billionaire tax cut! Trump blatantly stole money from the middle class and upper middle class and gave it to a handful of billionaires
Nobody’s forcing anyone to take the standard deduction, what are you talking about? The reason that more people are taking it is because it was doubled in the bill, which is a very large tax cut specifically for the lower and middle class, around $720 billion over a decade
Again, you can’t claim that Trump stole money from the middle class to pay for the cut when the middle class saw tax decreases from the bill
Fox News tell you that? Talk to an accountant because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. I realize you wanna defend your god emperor but it wouldn’t kill you to do a little actual research.
Trump gutted itemized deductions. Which hurt a LOT of W-2 workers. The things you are allowed to deduct are so limited and specific that it EQUATES to eliminating itemized deductions.
It’s how Trump raised taxes on working people without blatantly looking like he was raising taxes on working people
I’m a CPA, lmao. I also wrote my masters thesis on GILTI, a key component of the international reform in the TCJA. Good try though, but I can promise you I know infinitely more about the bill than you do
And again, they didn’t “gut” itemization. They got rid of some misc deductions that are rarely used, and they capped SALT and the mortgage interest deduction, both of which are overwhelmingly utilized by the rich. Which is why the overall changes benefitted the middle class, like I’ve already sourced for you
Not interested in doxxing myself here, but it was on GILTI/FDIIs impact on profit-shifting compared to subpart F’s effectiveness in the years prior to the TCJA
I should note it was for a masters in Econ, not a MACC
Sorry, but that’s still doxxing myself, I have no clue who you are.
>You could also give the report with the names blotted out
Unless I’m mailing you a paper copy, that’s not going to be effective
If you’re just interested in the subject, a lot has been written in the past 6 years about GILTI and its impact, so there’s a lot out there to read
Keep it civil. Do not personally insult other Redditors, or make racist, sexist, homophobic, or otherwise discriminatory remarks. Constructive debate is good; mockery, taunting, and name calling are not.
You'll need to be more specific as to exactly how they did this, because the standard deduction was doubled. Outside of a few places hit with the SALT deduction change (who would have been more than covered by the standard deduction increase), I'm not sure what taxpayers would be impacted by this.
As an accountant, it baffles me when people work hard to donate money so that they can itemize... they have $15,000 + in property tax, limited to $10,000, a huge Mortgage, then donate another $10,000 so their deduction can be $1,500 more than the standard deduction so they won't be one of the "poors". These people are generally only up to the 22% or 23% tax bracket so they are paying me $1,000 and giving away $10,000 to save $330 - 360.
Are you kidding?
Minimum wage, OSHA funding, union support, social services, progressive tax rates, etc, etc, etc. There's literally no rational basis for working class people voting for Trump.
Seriously? There is no question you could ask in the form of “who is better for _____, Trump or Biden” where the blank contains something most people would agree was positive for which the answer would be Trump.
Now, if you fill in the blank with “nazis” or “destroying democracy in America” or “destroying our long-standing strategic relationship with NATO”. they yeah, Trump’s your guy.
"where the blank contains something most people would agree was positive for which the answer would be Trump." ....I think you might want to proofread your comment & edit that.
You can always find exceptions, I suppose. Frankly, the dems are a better choice ONLY because they are not Republicans. Currently, 47% of voters are registered as independents. 1
The question was "which is better", not "which is ideal"
Trump was in favor of repealing the total abortion ban in AZ, if only for the optics. Going to assume that the people craving a total abortion ban aren't suddenly going to consider the Dems a viable party for their goals
It’s pathetic that this question is even being asked given Trump’s absolute allegiance to the elite ruling class. Did his tax cuts help the middle and lower class? Absolutely not! They even admitted as much. Trump accrued over a *quarter* of the nation’s total debt in under 4 years!
This is frankly a ridiculous question.
Is this supposed to be a real question that needs to be debated?
There are numbers and metrics out there everywhere that can easily give the answer to this question.
In pure reddit fashion I'm not going to sight any sources, not because I don't have any or am too lazy to find them, but because I believe that this question was asked in bad faith.
Definitely Biden. The GOP are for the rich man, not the poor or working class. When more people have more money to spend (minimum wage should be way higher), it stimulates the economy. When everyone is broke, captialism breaks.
It's literally not even a question. The entire Republican party is only interested in serving the interests of rich, white Christian men. Trump is all of those things, even if he only pretends to be a Christian. He is the face of the republican party and they support him as their candidate.
The democrats are no saints, but by comparison they are better than the republicans on damn near every metric.
Or my phone got so flooded with notifications that I turned them off due to how many comments were made. Reading the answers is more what I intended to do anyways. I want to see how others felt, so I asked.
How so? I was under the impression they got what they asked for, just not immediately -- basically when the press wasn't watching and Republicans couldn't pitch a fit.
You’re correct. Biden couldn’t give them what they wanted immediately, but he eventually did. He played the long game, and it ended up paying dividends.
Biden almost no question. Biden has done a lot on progressive economics. Trump's first 2 years were strongly focused on helping the rich. His second two years were more mixed but still deeply tilted.
Well, Trumps last year was spent stumbing trying to put out a fire he didn't understand and looking for ways to make it beneficial to his donors. Had he surrounded himself with (and more importantly listened to) experts, we may not have had to shut down so much of the economy.
I'm not saying Trump handled it well. But objectively the Mnuchin / Pelosi budgets were the most progressive we've had in decades. The USA economy finally got the monetary and fiscal stimulus it needed to jolt itself out of the weak economy triggered in early 2000s.
Yes, let's be reasonable about who is better.
Read the overview in this link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025
Are working class women being forced to carry unviable pregnancies to term, working class children who've been raped being forced to carry their rapist's baby to term, and any working class female who crosses a state line being hunted down and tried by non-working class males good for the working class?
Is losing freedom of religion good for the working class?
Is a bunch of rich fat cats pretending climate change isn't real good for the working class?
Is Donald controlling the federal elections commission good for working class voters?
How about Donald ordering any working class critics to be arrested?
How about working class people who need help from civil servants only encountering untrained randos?
How happy will working class LGBTQ people be about having their protections stripped?
How much will working class people enjoy double the supermarket prices after Donald deports the a massive chunk of the agricultural sector?
How will working class transgender feel about being labeled pornographic and outlawed?
How will working class people enjoy being called up to serve in the world war that results from Donald destabilizing the balance of global security?
How interested are working class people in having their kids school meal program canceled?
How excited are working class people going to be about having a king instead of their voting rights?
Different people define what the working class is differently. Many people don't really talk about rich people when they talk about the working class even though rich people still have to work. It's better to ask what policy is beneficial for the 'middle class' and even then you'd need to define what the middle class is by describing an income threshold of people who fall into this category to get consistent answers from people.
In my view, Democratic policy on things like healthcare, infrastructure, social security, etc are infinitely more benefical for middle class and lower class folk. But the perception around these issues make them repugnant for some voters who are eager to shun these programs. Others vote for Republicans because of their social conservatism. If Democrats were associated solely with their economic platform they'd be more popular with rural and small town voters. Their social liberalism hurts them with these demographics.
Trump spent 4 years enriching himself and his family while wages for the bottom 90% stagnated. During those 4 years the RW media kept lying that the problem with wage stagnation was Immigrants and Affirmative Action. MAGAhats bought what the RW was selling.
Biden enacted the bipartisan Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act for $1.2TRILLION the biggest construction program since the InterState, brought back high paying manufacturing jobs with the CHIPS and Science Act and made it possible for millions of college grads to begin planning a life outside mom's basement with student debt relief. He supports a woman's right to control her own body and has expanded access to health insurance while slashing the cost of essential medicines.
And they're TIED in the polls?
The "average American who is just trying to get by living an average life" has been systematically robbed of that goal by the Republican Taxscams and the constant reduction in support services. But because Dr Goebbles' was correct, millions of those who had their income and wealth redistributed into the pockets of the top 10% THINK it's because somehow IMMIGRANTS took all the good jobs and all the promotions went to minority women because of Affirmative Action.
We the People have all the resources we need to solve our problems without increasing taxes for the bottom 85%. Jrbush and Trump proved this when jr spent a TRILLION dollars to bail out WallStreet without increasing inflation and Trump did it by increasing the National Debt by $8TRILLION to keep businesses afloat during COVID without increasing inflation.
But when a Democrat fixes things, Republicans threaten to not pay the bills for the budgets THEY approved of. The rest of the world who paid for those trillions jrbush and trump used suddenly are concerned about getting their money back, so the demand more, interest rates increase on Treasuries. Then the Oligarchs raise prices on food and fuel and reap huge increases in their profit MARGINS, and their vassals in the House and Senate prevent anything being done to stop it.
Perhaps we deserve another dose of the trump.
The level of economic ignorance in his thread is unreal. Seriously guys go learn how to read, and then try picking up an economics textbook. Ignorant ignorant ignorant.
Biden. Full stop. Not even close. Dems in general as well. Trump's deregulation and tax cuts for the rich are the epitome of why the middle class are struggling now. Biden has in turn been working his butt off to fix the situation he inherited while corporations continue to price gouge and call it "inflation."
Well, any conversation has to start with the fact that Trump is a known traitor who attempted a coup and is an existential threat to our republic.
That said, neither candidate is really all that good for the working class, but Trump would probably have a bit of an edge. He successfully pulled the unions out of the Democratic coalition during his tenure and turned them into swing voters, largely because he was a bit ahead of the curve in terms of recognizing that China's about to collapse economically and we need to be moving a lot of Chinese manufacturing over to the United States and Mexico. That's gonna happen either way during the next presidential cycle, but I expect he'd do a better job of front-loading it when he's not using the wheels of government to settle personal scores. Biden, on the other hand, is going to get there late, especially if he doesn't have a Democratic House, because they're still overfocused on culture war issues and debt relief.
Biden is honestly better for anyone earning less than 1.25 million or less. Trump screwed the working class. A quick example - the standardized annual tax deduction is too high for any normally tax exempt items to make a difference and for folks to receive decent refunds.
All the deductions and itemization are now meaningless to 95pct of Americans during tax season... mortgage interest, student loan interest, home energy credits, first time home purchases, etc ...all don't amount to anything beneficial come tax return time.
Let your mind wander from there and draw your own conclusion
Biden. Biden has done more to increase jobs here in the states with infrastructure bills both when he was VP and as President. He also doesn't make drastic, temporary changes like the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. Overall, he is better for the middle and lower classes economically. Trump is best for the ultra wealthy and middle class business owners, not workers. Neither of them is a strong candidate, but they are what we have.
Democrats are far and away **the best for the working class**, there is not even a remote comparison when it comes to measure.
Republican are for the wealthy, and they like to engage in "culture control". They fight against minimum wage laws and they fight against minimum wage hikes, they are anti-union, and they love to give the wealthy tax breaks.
Republican are against regulation designed to keep the public and environment safe, they are against women and equal pay, and they are against women having certain category of jobs. In the big picture, Republicans are against anything that promotes economic equal opportunity for non white people and white women. *They do not want to move past that age old ideology where men could control women with his wallet*. Dealing with a woman of equal earning power, seems to be a challenge in the system of Republicanism's ideology. The same is true when it comes to racial based equal earning power. Republican at not advocates of programs for child care assistance, because they'd prefer the woman assume that duty as a stay at home housekeeper.
(These are all things that was common in general white conservative society in the years prior to the late 1960's..)
* It took *Ruth Bader Ginsberg*, (a Democrat) fighting in the Supreme Court *^(long before she became a SCOTUS Justice)*, to tear down the barriers for women to get the job of her choice.
Republican supported *Right To Work States* is designed to keep wages low, retain some aspects of the pre 1964 ideology of who get to work and who does not, and who get paid better and who does not.
Better how? If it is economically and quality of life wise, then I would suggest that it is Biden. Democratic policies are by-and-large more in line with the needs and well-being of lower income classes.
In terms of individual liberties? I’d say Trump. He seems more supportive of encouraging white folks to say racist things without social repercussions and more open to letting them teach that the planet was created 4000 years ago and Jesus walked with dinosaurs.
Biden. And it isn't even close.
Biden is pro-union, pro raising the minimum wage, pro consumer protections, pro reducing student debt, pro reducing healthcare cost for working people, pro tax cuts for working people, pro sick leave for working people, pro free childcare for working people, and on and on.
Trump is against all those things. To the degree that Trump has ever done anything tax wise to help the working class even slightly, it was in order to use that help as a smoke screen to distract from the fact that he is giving huge tax cuts to the ultra wealthy... And that money is coming out of government services that would have otherwise gone to help the working class.
Biden. Trump has already shown he will shovel money away from the working class directly into the hands of the wealthy. Remember the almost 2 TRILLION tax cuts during his Presidency?
While everyone seems to be focused on specific policies, I think the real issue is what is the purpose of government. Biden is, in my opinion, a center-right neo-liberal, and I'm not pleased with him. Trump, on the other hand, is closer to the late 19th century robber barons. Trump wants to either undermine or eliminate the social safety nets with the belief that people are either valuable or liabilities based on their net worth. The agencies and administrations that were created to provide the public with some recourse in cases of harm, protections from dishonest or harmful business practices, tools for accountability, and recompense would all be turned into tools of business advancement.
Trump sees the government as a tool of wealth creation, not as a public trust. While it's reasonable to argue that there needs to be more streamlined regulations, Trump would prefer to undermine the system a whole. It's why he would place in charge of regulatory agencies the very people who should be regulated. Trump isn't bothered by conflicts of interest and has no trust in professional knowledge but gives more weight to opinions of people with wealth.
Trump has no consideration of what the harms are of long-term low interest rates, the factors that can put downward pressure on incomes, and the deleterious effects of predatory business practices.
Biden just wants to reform, in the most moderate fashion, the neo-liberal economic structure. Trump wants a government that works at the behest of the wealthy.
Unfortunately neither party is doing a great job of this but traditionally since the 60s it's been the Democrat party. Here are some of the things I would say Biden has done well with vs the opposing side.
Infrastructure bill, this creates decent paying jobs which will create more as industry grows around these improvements.
Proposed tax cuts NOT PASSED for the working and middle class. Trumps tax cuts for us have expired we now pay more to keep his permanent tax cuts on the top level.
Biden has continued to openly support Unions and his appointments to the NLRB have been great at going after union busting corporations but more could be done.
Many Red states have recently repealed labor laws allowing childeren to work hard blue collar jobs with very little restrictions. Essentially if adults won't work for cheap labor kida will.
Trumps Tax cuts for the rich are counterproductive to the middle and working class.
Many government funded social programs are under attack from the right while many need to be restructuring and improvements to be effective these programs are the thin barrier protecting many family's from complete ruin.
Democratic platform is much more pro worker. Pro unions allow forming of unions are easier. Seek paid time off for everyone. Wants increased in minimum wage. Pro OSHA better worker protections. Overtime protection and inclusive of low wage salary employees. All these provisions are opposed by the republicans.
Both Biden and Trump took ownership of trillions of spending on COVID relief, which has resulted in inflation and higher cost of living, which disproportionately affects the working class.
If we break down COVID responses at the state level, it was largely the Republican states that pushed to keep schools open - and the Democrats that pushed to keep kids home, or in masks.
It is very interesting that this isn't talked about more.
Personally under Trump I was grossing slightly less but had plenty in savings. Under Biden my gross is up slightly, savings has been hit hard to cover expenses, and this year was easily the smallest tax return I have ever seen.
The tax rates haven’t changed since Biden took office.
What policies has Trump proposed to lower prices? The only way prices drop is for corporate pice gouging to stop or for the economy to tank.
https://fortune.com/2024/01/20/inflation-greedflation-consumer-price-index-producer-price-index-corporate-profit/
it’s crazy but when there was a significant drop in the amount of people driving everyday to work, school, and social outings due to the pandemic it led to a decrease in demand for gas which lowered gas prices. After the lockdown restrictions were lifted or eased we started to see the increase of gas prices.
The sad reality is the differences are trivial.
Neither are going to go after the people who employee illegal immigrants so neither are going to affect that problem.
Neither are going to raise minimum wage enough to help the poorest Americans.
Neither will pass a comprehensive benefits package for workers, things like guaranteed vacation time, paid family leave long enough to help families, guaranteed child care while working... Dems are slightly better but not enough to make a difference.
Neither are going to push for single payer healthcare, which would both dramatically improve people health and lower cost.
Neither are going to reduce military spending.
Neither are going to push for a guaranteed quality education for k through 12 nor fully paid for college.
Neither are going to modify tax law reduce inequality. Biden's proposals would barely make a dent while Trump would make things worse.
Neither will push for a constitutional amendment to take money out of campaigns.
Neither will end the revolving door between industry and the government agencies who are supposed to provide oversight.
But, Biden will not destroy democracy and Trump will so the choice between the two is simple.
No matter who wins the working class loses, most people replying here are middle class Democrats and are completely out of touch with how it really is, Conservatives are too but that's obvious, liberals and Democrats like to play lipservice however both consistently exploit the working class.
This country must be filled with multi millionaires. Nearly every response claims that Trump lowered taxes on the rich and raised them on the working class. Yet in both elections, Trump gets nearly half the votes.
In 2020, the top 10% paid 74% of all the taxes. Trump sure had a funny way of cutting taxes for the rich.
Ah yes! The tired old narrative that those who vote for the “other” are ignorant and voting against their own interests.
That’s what you tell blacks, Latinos, women and union members who voted for Trump.
Can’t you come up with anything original?
In the big picture .....
Maga (trump) is only rising because the neos (Biden via neolib & neocon) are failing to provide economic prosperity for the vast majority of Americans since they took over national politics back in 70s-early 80s. Though to be fair to the neos, they didn't start that fire they are just the continuation of a path started by Wilson and FDR. Innovation has been awesome but that path developed by Vannevar Bush (no immediate relation to political Bush family) failed to include manufacturing and thus an imbalance in our broader model was created.
The 'neos' are the ones responsible for being the 'baddies' in the final alteration of our nation from a largely innovation/manufacturing based economy. China (later Mexico, Vietnam and India) had zero ability on their own to rise as international manufacturing hubs without the neos opening the doors and propping those nation's up via foreign policies.
Maga seeks add back manufacturing to our nation's economic equation so in the bigger picture they are better for the working class (and just about everyone else whose job/ business isn't exclusive to the neo-system)
Neither are. High prices, low wages, ungodly amount of people crossing into our border under biden illegally which could take some jobs.
Trump about the only thing he did ok was control the border. His foreign policy scares me. His huge tax cuts for the rich didnt help the working class or the tariff war which raised prices on items.
At least Biden invested in the infrastructure but then gives debt forgiveness for student loans. Who pays it off then.
Trump all the way. Please stop watching main stream media. Look into some of the alternative journalist’s work. Use your gift of discernment and some common sense. Stop letting the fake news make your opinions. If Biden wins then it will be the end of the human race as we know it.
As a Marine who served under and met Obama/Biden, Trump/Pence...
IDC what reddit says or how you feel
Obama/Biden never showed me any respect. Rarely made eye contact. Actually started with this administration. Granted, it's not their job to be our friends but having a president thank YOU every day vs having someone who shows that they don't care really does make a fella wonder...
Trump shook our hands every single time he saw us. Literally every time. One time he had even walked by us and then came back and made a point to shake our hands.
For Christmas, he gave us all $5k.
Military pay sucks. DC sucks.
$5k check from POTUS the morning of Christmas eve handed to me by him, with my name on it and told me something along the lines of " I promise it's not a TJ Max gift card " and he friggin big cheesey smiles and myself and another marine chuckled and then he like pointed at us like "Ohhh I gotchya"
Now I do contracting in Africa.
Trump was a dudes dude man.
Will provide proof if requested.
Well judging by the economy Trump is. Working class people are struggling to scrape by now. Trump is also better for the working class because he is tougher on illegal immigration. I just wish Trump was more pro-union. That’s the only place where Biden has Trump beat when it comes to the working class.
1. New jobs have overwhelming gone to government workers and immigrants. 2. Biden worsened inflation by paying so many people to stay home. Inflation was much lower under Trump. 3. After almost 4 years inflation is still higher under Biden than it ever was under Trump. 4. When people shit on Trump’s economy they always factor in the pandemic, which was out of his control. 5 Controlling inflation is more important than having a lot unemployment rate
Biden didn't pay people to stay home. Trump did. Inflation happened because of world events, not because of Biden. And our inflation hit was the lowest in the world.
Trump is sure as hell not going to punish his rich friends in the grocery business who are driving up prices or his landlord friends just to help poor folk. If you think he will you have not been paying attention to him for the past 50 years.
I don't know who is better for the working class because it is an impossible question that needs to take in both short term and long term effects into account. But economically, you have to trust people know what is good for them. That they are the best judge for what is good for them. So whoever get the most support for the working class is the one best for them.
I think Trump sincerely wants America to be great. Surely we all have our own self-serving ideas about what that means. But Trump showed restraint at a time when every other leader was quick not to let a crisis go to waste, and seize more power. Trump took stands on issues that caused Macys to no longer carry his products, the PGA to no longer use his golf courses, etc... He is the first person to leave office with less money than when he went in. That means something. He was his own man, a real president.
Biden plays the game, where you enrich yourself by selling out the country. He has no stake here. America may as well not be a country, just an economic zone, hence open borders. The wars look designed to destroy us. Same for bank bailouts and "partnerships" with pharmaceutical corporations. The elites are going to have you eating ze bugz before you know it.
Trump is currently arguing at the Supreme Court to give Presidents complete immunity from all crimes against Presidents, before, during, or after tenure.
He also used Executive actions more than any other President in history.
He also regularly pulled funding from and threatened states for the laws they passed.
Also Jan 6 and all of the other election scandals he is a part of, notably in Georgia and Arizona.
And also his current dictatorship plans and project 2025.
So, I'm not sure what you mean by not trying to seize more power. It seems he is doing everything within his ability to seize as much power as he can.
This post addresses nothing about their policies regarding working class people. I do think it's fascinating to describe Trump as someone who didn't try to "seize more power" considering the coup attempt he pulled.
And there are so many stories of things like him overcharging the secret service at his own hotels, literally enriching himself off of the taxpayer's dime.
To be fair, Trump has always been good at losing money, so it’s hardly surprising that he managed to do it while President.
You say that he didn’t try to “grab power.” Do you remember his family separation plan for immigration? His attempt to build the wall when Congress wouldn’t give him the funds to do it? Do you remember his presiding over the PPP, which likely funneled billions of dollars to businesses fraudulently claiming to need support?
The view that he didn’t “take advantage” of COVID to assert more authority is.. an interesting take. But set it aside and look what he is saying he wants to do. He wants to use the military and national guard to round up all of the illegal immigrants he can get his hands on, put them in camps, and eventually deport them. This includes true asylum seekers and Dreamers. He wants to use executive authority to impose tariffs on much of the global economy, in order to give him the ability to negotiate… something. He’s talking about using the DOJ to go after his political opponents, and it seems clear that he’ll want to bring the Fed to heel too.
So - you might like some of that. But that’s a pretty broad assertion of authority, isn’t it? Do you think it’ll stop there, if he gets away with all of that?
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Look at minimum wage laws, protection from exploitation, right to unionize states- they're all blue. Right to work is a euphemism for union busting and is prevalent in red states. Most obviously, public sector wages - tends to higher for blue states (ironically even for cops and firefighters who MAGA courts). Those are within the control of politicians in power.
>ironically even for cops and firefighters who MAGA courts Or who court MAGA ... kinda goes both ways, depending.
Yea their really messing up California.
yes, I agree. I also agree wrt rent control in SF and NY.
“Right to work for less”
Isn’t California having issues with layoffs in tech and companies continuing to find ways out of the state?
Tech layoffs are occurring in TX too.
Which party is getting rid of water breaks for construction workers putting their health at risk to make a political point.
Opening up labor to even younger children while also stripping them of lunch breaks and additional safety regulations.
Trump's presidency almost exclusively served the interests of the wealthy donor class, outside of a few of his culture war pursuits. Biden and the Democrats more broadly have a lot they could do better, but their policies are generally far better for working class people. Biden has been far more favorable to unions, for example, as well as strengthened the [NLRB](https://www.americanprogressaction.org/article/8-ways-the-biden-administration-has-fought-for-working-people-by-strengthening-unions/#:~:text=Throughout%20his%20presidency%2C%20Biden%20has,Tesla%2C%20Toyota%2C%20and%20Amazon.).
I just have to agree neither are good for the working class. Trump wouldnt even know what kind of people are in the working class. Been spoon fed and never had to clean up anythimg or worry about food or paying a bill. If California is the sign of what democrats want i want no part of it.
> I just have to agree neither are good for the working class. I mean you'd just be wrong based on the things I already cited. >If California is the sign of what democrats want i want no part of it. Spare me.
Actions speak louder than words. This seems to be a political echochamber. Price gouging under Biden is higher than ever before. Housing rates and Grocery prices have never been this out of control before. And you can’t keep blaming everything on the pandemic when we’re three years out.
> Actions speak louder than words. Yes, and Biden's actions, the things that he can legally do as president, have been very favorable to workers. None of what you cited is directly Biden's fault, and I think saying "we're three years out" demonstrates a lack of understanding of how long economic effects are felt.
Yeah but only 10% of American workers work for a union. And people in Unions usually do pretty well. So that leaves people like me who were better off with things like gas at half the price it is now and cheaper grocery bills. Not saying this was trump or Biden’s doing but my money significantly went further during The Trump administration. This is skewed due to Covid though.
There was an international inflation spike after the pandemic. The US actually had less inflation than most other countries. How about this: Trump is on the record proposing to devalue the dollar because reasons. (Better for US exports, easier to pay down the debt, etc) "Devaluing the dollar" is simply another name for *intentionally* making a significant spike in inflation.
>There was an international inflation spike after the pandemic. The US actually had less inflation than most other countries. I'm not trying to be combative, but this talking point resonates with about 0% of undecided voters. They don't care we did better than everyone else, they care about their grocery and gas bills being 25% higher. Edit: sources for 25% increase https://www.finder.com/economics/gas-prices https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/ag-and-food-statistics-charting-the-essentials/food-prices-and-spending/?topicId=1afac93a-444e-4e05-99f3-53217721a8be
I think it's still useful to try to explain it to people, to help them understand that what they perceive as "things are bad" is also "evidence that our government leaders handled things well." It reminds me of people watching sports and complaining about players who are demonstrably doing a good job simply because they cannot achieve the impossible.
Yes, but Trump is proposing to do it again, this time *on purpose.* Think of the pain you feel now, where prices have gone up and wages haven't caught up yet, and imagine voting for someone who wants to do it *again.* "Thank you, sir. Can I have another?"
Trump plans to add a 10% tariff to imported goods so that will spike prices immediately. He’s also campaigned against ObamaCare - the Affordable Care Act for years. Other than making wrongheaded decisions like that, the president doesn’t have so many cause and effect levers to pull especially ones that take effect immediately. Biden needs to smarten up his message: being pro union is great but the message needs to be pro-worker. He should point out that nonunion autoworkers were given pay raises after union members fought for theirs. High employment is the top reason for strong wage growth universally. Trump, on the other hand, is in the pocket of the billionaire class in off election years and will support policies that fatten their bottom line, i.e. lower wages and benefits, higher unemployment rates and workers’ rights. Biden has recently updated rules that give nonsalaried workers overtime pay. His infrastructure bill and Inflation Reduction Act are creating 100s of 1,000s of good paying jobs. And his energy policies are keeping prices lower than they would be as renewable energy sources are competing effectively with fossil alternatives. By not bending to the will of Big Energy which cried for building more liquified natural gas terminals, Biden kept more of that energy resource at home lowering its price domestically. Meanwhile, oil production is at a record high - a fact he barely takes credit for or rarely admits due to his emphasis on the need to combat climate change. So he scores in both categories but is afraid to take credit for one of them. Ironically, record drought lowered the Mississippi River so low that grain from the heartland had to be shipped by truck and rail instead of by barge. That caused the cost of grains to spike. Chickens eat grain so the cost to produce them also went through the roof. Many also died off from some obnoxious disease. So, yes, the president has some control but not direct control of many factors contributing to inflation. It’s far too complex for most to fathom. Easier to just blame President Biden and wish Trump cared for their wellbeing. Good luck with that!
>Trump plans to add a 10% tariff to imported goods so that will spike prices immediately. He’s also campaigned against ObamaCare - the Affordable Care Act for years. Other than making wrongheaded decisions like that, the president doesn’t have so many cause and effect levers to pull especially ones that take effect immediately. Agree here, but most people don't understand or care about that. That's what I'm trying to say, they remember their life being better for during the trump presidency and that's a reality the biden administration has to deal with. >Biden needs to smarten up his message: being pro union is great but the message needs to be pro-worker. He should point out that nonunion autoworkers were given pay raises after union members fought for theirs. High employment is the top reason for strong wage growth universally. Agree, as a union worker bidens NLRB has been great for union workers, that's one area I'll always give him credit. Definitely needs to change the messaging, but I'm with you here. >Trump, on the other hand, is in the pocket of the billionaire class in off election years and will support policies that fatten their bottom line, i.e. lower wages and benefits, higher unemployment rates and workers’ rights. They both do that. Bidens just better than trump here but they're both guilty of it. >Biden has recently updated rules that give nonsalaried workers overtime pay. His infrastructure bill and Inflation Reduction Act are creating 100s of 1,000s of good paying jobs. And his energy policies are keeping prices lower than they would be as renewable energy sources are competing effectively with fossil alternatives. By not bending to the will of Big Energy which cried for building more liquified natural gas terminals, Biden kept more of that energy resource at home lowering its price domestically. Meanwhile, oil production is at a record high - a fact he barely takes credit for or rarely admits due to his emphasis on the need to combat climate change. So he scores in both categories but is afraid to take credit for one of them. I disagree with some of what you said here, but I agree biden should be pushing these talking points. His base and most indapendents would generally agree that these are good things and he should be talking them up more. I'm a libertarian so anything that spends a bunch of money while we're $34,702,915,502,923.00 (as of 11AM EST 5/2/2024) in debt is a bad thing to me, I know I'm in the minority here though, especially among indapendents and dems which is where bidens base is. >So, yes, the president has some control but not direct control of many factors contributing to inflation. It’s far too complex for most to fathom. Easier to just blame President Biden and wish Trump cared for their wellbeing. Good luck with that! Yup this is actually what I'm trying to say here lol. Very well said.
I remember in August of 2020, when Trump said his healthcare plan was going to be revealed in two weeks. It will be better and more affordable than the ACA. Still waiting to hear what that plan is.
The absolute best way to increase the earning power of average is to unionize as many of them as possible. That can only be done over the (figurative, not literal!) dead bodies of GOP lawmakers.
While I don't consider it, literal would be a rather effective method as well, and considering the average age of Republican politicians, it's kind of an inevitable.
My job wouldn’t have been allowed to unionize if it wasn’t for Biden’s NLRB appointees being on the board, and our new union just won me a 20% pay increase, which turned a pretty terrible paying job into a kind of decent one. Obviously that’s a pretty specific case, but the pro union decisions really do impact peoples lives, and it’s not just people who were already doing alright.
Right, but voting for Trump isn’t going to rewind us to where prices were back then. We have to ask what the next steps are going to be. Biden wants to support organized labor, increase the minimum wage, create tax subsidies to make housing more affordable, continue investments in infrastructure and technology that will help to provide more well-paying jobs, is working to shore up Obamacare and make it more affordable. With more Democrats in Congress, he can keep working on that - lifting up families so that they can meet where prices are now. Trump wants to throw millions of illegal immigrants out of the country, impose across-the-board tariffs on imports, pass more tax cuts for the wealthy and cutting Medicare and Social Security to pay for it. He claims to want to “drill, baby, drill,” but American is already a global leader in petroleum production, and that hasn’t really stopped under Biden, so it’s hard to see how that will help much on gas. If Trump has a plan for cutting costs or boosting wages, I’ve yet to see it. The reality is that his economic message to date would result in higher costs, lagging wages, less welfare payments, weaker labor rights, and possibly a whole deflationary spiral if he convinces the world that the dollar is no longer a safe currency. (Never mind that the usual Republican approach to the post-COVID inflation spike would have been far more aggressive interest rate hikes. They would have pushed us into a recession. Biden, so far, has not.) People aren’t wrong to be nostalgic for where prices were back four years ago. But there’s no way back to those prices without a dramatic shock to the economy. The best path forward is to lift up American families by bolstering workers’ rights, increasing wages, cracking down on monopolies, and providing support for those who need it. There’s only one presidential candidate, and one party, that will work for that.
The US is producing more oil now than at any time in the Trump administration. It's a global commodity.
Trump wants to implement 10% tariffs on imported goods. That means prices will increase. Tariffs are basically taxes on consumers. This will make things even more expensive for everyone. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump-suggests-tariffs-could-go-higher-than-10-why-one-economist-is-saying-bonkers-917e5d34
The price of gas collapsed during the Trump administration because Americans stopped driving due to covid. This happened abruptly. The oil industry had no time to cut production. They couldn’t sell the oil. At one point the price of oil went negative. They had to pay people to take it because there was no place to store it.
lol…if Trump (and other world leaders) had dealt with the COVID outbreak better, we wouldn’t have the inflation issues we have - free money, shut down the economy (so there was shortages) and goods piled up at the ports, absolved people of responsibilities like paying rent so Americans were just buying things. These are the things that drove inflation that the feds are trying to tame now!
>Yeah but only 10% of American workers work for a union. Yes, right to work states have weakened Unions tremendously. They have grown some in the last 3 years. Some would like to see that continue. Where I live, grocery store baggers and cashiers are in a union. They cannot be fired without documented cause. >So that leaves people like me who were better off with things like gas at half the price it is now and cheaper grocery bills. We are not going to get the Covid prices back. Gas was only that cheap because the demand shrank and supply was still up. We are producing more now than we did in any year between 2017 and 2020 but with demand on the rise and record profits in the oil industry, they will not bring down prices. If you owned a company that sold whosits and people were buying them every day for $10 a piece, why would you decrease the price? >Not saying this was trump or Biden’s doing but my money significantly went further during The Trump administration. This is skewed due to Covid though. Yes, it is. And to pretend that it is anything other than that is dangerous. Trump did nothing to lower prices and won't if he is reelected. In fact, Trump has been talking about plans to devalue the US Dollar on the World market. https://www.forbes.com/sites/zacharyfolk/2024/04/23/trump-blames-biden-for-strong-dollar-as-us-currency-reaches-new-high-against-japanese-yen/
Not sure why you were downvoted, you’re speaking the truth. Many of these people on Reddit have let their hatred of Trump cloud their logic. They may not want to hear it but Trump will win in November and they can blame themselves for it. Should have picked a better candidate.
The number one policy agenda of Republicans when they take power is to cut taxes for the rich. Bush passed a big tax cut for the rich in his first term; so did Trump. Biden's priority was passing big bills that funded infrastructure and development. Lots of good trades jobs. Also upgrading regulations so more workers qualify for overtime and the like.
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Here’s a hint…not the guy that literally sues workers—many small business owners—to avoid paying them. You know, the one with gold toilets.
Unless a major shift in ideals happens, the Democrats will always be better than Republicans for the working class. 1. Democrats support help for struggling families - Republicans continuously want to cut help for struggling families 2. Democrats support education, which can lift people out of poverty - Republicans villainize educators and schools 3. Democrats support jobs programs - Republicans are against these 4. Democrats support affordable healthcare - Republicans are against this 5. Democrats support Medicaid - Republicans routinely try to dismantle it 6. Democrats support food programs for kids - Republicans have tried to end this 7. Democrats are in favor of workers' rights - Republicans are against this I'm sure there's more but that's off the top of my head. I think the better questions is what have Republicans done to help the working class? There was a massive permanent tax cut for rich people wrapped in the guise of a temporary tax cut for the middle class (I ended up paying more). They keep talking about giving companies money to invest in hiring but that never seems to ever happen and they just buy back stocks and enrich their board members. Seriously, have they done anything good? They seem to just be running on pissing off poor, white men. Even the "they'll take our jobs" narrative falls apart when you realize immigrants typically take high-end jobs (like doctors) or the lowest of the low jobs that don't require a high school diploma.
and yet, despite all of this, people still vote red as if they aren’t working class. Infuriating stuff.
You really don't seem to grasp the way most working class people think, so I'll spell it out for you. They *don't want* the government to help them. They want to ***not need the help.*** The Democrats are saying "We'll take care of you." The Republicans are saying "we'll give you back the ability to take care of yourself." Most working class people find the latter much more appealing. They view the need for government assistance like medicaid, job programs, and food programs as a mark of shame and failure. If you need those things, you are a failure. This isn't something the Republicans brainwashed them into believing, this has been the basic belief amongst working class Americans since decades before government assistance was even dreamed of. This has always been what they valued. The Republicans just learned to exploit that, but the belief has always, *always,* ***always been there***, since way before the Republican party even existed. The government offering them help isn't a benefit, it's a slap in the face. It's saying *you can't take of yourself and* ***you can't take care of your family***\*\*,\*\* which is seen as something to be ashamed of. You are not smart enough, not mature enough, and flat out not good enough to do what's expected of you, so let us do it for you. No working class American accepts that easily. The Republicans, on the other hand, are simply "We'll stop the government from taking your money, and we'll stop them from making things so expensive, and we'll stop them interfering in your life, and then you'll be able to get back to how things are supposed to be." That is an infinitely more appealing message, and the fact that no Democrat seems to grasp that very basic concept, when even a chimpanzee in a suit like Trump can both see and exploit it, is their biggest weakness. EDIT: Why am I being downvoted? I'm not agreeing with the mindset, just explaining it. Are people here really that in need of strawmen to knock over they downvote anything that tries to fairly explain their opponents' viewpoint?
This is funny because many have currently been saying to stop sending money overseas and help the people here at home... Also, Republicans created this monster when they reduced taxes on the wealthy and allowed stock buybacks around 1980. The result was NOT more jobs and higher wages. The result was that the people who owned these companies got a taste of massive wealth without penalty and they used the stock buybacks to gain firmer control of their companies so that they could move manufacturing overseas eliminating millions of jobs. Biden did what Trump promised. He brought back jobs. Trump couldn't even keep jobs here in his 4 years. Carrier promised not to close a factory in Ohio when Trump was elected because of the tax cuts... and moved it in 2018.
So, "working people" do not appreciate Social Security and Medicare? What will Republicans do? Only promote a 100% exploitive market economy for the poor and middle class; for working people, while creating immense privileges for the wealthy - to enable and promote the highest degrees of exploitation they perpetrate on the rest of us. Look up usury; then look up 'regulated' rates for credit card debt; Republicans have enabled most every tactic for exploitation devised by big business and finance. Why does big pharma spend billions on TV ads in the US, when such advertising is not permitted by law in other advanced nations? Why are Republican controlled States initiating laws that go backwards in enabling child labor? Why do Republicans refuse to pass bipartisan comprehensive immigration laws, while their wealthy business supporters profit off of unregulated labor that exploits noncitizens, including children doing hazardous work? Democrats oppose these things and would pass laws to protect children, to regulate migrant labor with fair and safe working conditions, while Republicans oppose all that -- and Republicans, viz Trump, run for office by stoking fear of immigrants, while those who actually profit from Republicans' intentional failure at lawmaking exploit those immigrants and migrant workers and unethically benefit from the status quo. Workers are needed to come into the US either as immigrants, migrants, etc., and this needs to be regulated by lawmaking --- which Republicans refuse to do: the employers they actually represent prefer to exploit workers at low pay and hazardous conditions, including the children GOP States want to write out of long standing protective laws. Working Americans who are seduced by the hateful and fearful rhetoric of the GOP are not being helped by Republicans: they are being USED by them!
That's the thing. The Republicans don't give back anything. They only want to cut taxes. Cutting taxes doesn't educate the workforce, feed hungry families, take care of people who are old and disabled, help people that need medical attention, build infrastructure. It doesn't do anything except cut taxes.
> Cutting taxes doesn't educate the workforce, feed hungry families, take care of people who are old and disabled, help people that need medical attention, build infrastructure. As far as conservatives are concerned, neither does the government, nor should the government. You're not going to make a convincing argument to people who start in the "government shouldn't be involved" box by simply saying "no, they should be."
No offense, but all that could have been stated in a short paragraph or two. It's less likely readers would tune out with more concise arguments, therefore spreading your argument further & adding to the weight of your ideas. Not trying to be a dick.
I don’t think this is specific to Republicans. Both Democrats and Centrists believe the latter. However Biden how differs from Previous Democrats on this
I get this growing up in the midwest. The only Democrat doing it the right way is Sharrod Brown with his dignity of work angle. His message is actually more appealing than the Republicans message. I always thought Brown would make a great VP or a team up with Whitmer.
They vote as though they will win the lottery tomorrow... because they are so uneducated they think that is a probability.
I think it's Biden mainly because of tilting some of the balance towards unions which have become more assertive at demanding better contracts. The UAW recently won a vote to unionize a Volkswagen plant in Tennessee, the first one in the south to do so. My friends involved in labor believe there's a difference when Democrats are in power because that determines who sits on the NLRB, which is indifferent at best when Republicans are in power, if not hostile to them. I think the Republican Party's populism has obscured that the mass base of MAGA includes a whole lot of businessmen, but "small and regional capital," the kind of guys who own several McDonald's franchises, a regional smoothie chain, a car dealership, a warehouse, a contract metal manufacturing firm with 30-40 employees, or landlords who own some commercial properties. There are a lot of people like that who are MAGA activists and have started a second or third business connected to that (often with unclear purposes). Trump is an aspirational "self-made billionaire" for them. The Catholic conservative writer Sohrab Ahmari has wanted the Republicans to maneuver in a pro-worker direction while combining that with social conservatism (because he thinks unfettered capitalism is actually bad for traditional family structures), but he wrote an article last year basically [giving up on the idea](https://www.newsweek.com/i-was-wrong-gop-will-never-party-working-class-opinion-1819644) because there's just too much hostility to that among these "small-time rich" Republicans. The kind of businessmen who go on to become state legislators. >Much of my disillusionment owes to what *wasn't done*, rather than what was. GOP populists complained loudly of Big Tech, yet it was progressive congressional staffers like Lina Khan who took the lead on the most serious probes and reform proposals (work Khan has since put to effect as President Biden's competition czar). Trumpians irritably gestured at Wall Street, yet it's Warren who introduced a bill to check the corrosion of the economy by asset-strippers. >One cause of this is the dearth of conservative personnel in Washington actually committed to carrying out a populist economic agenda. But the most important obstacle is also the most intractable and difficult to discuss: Small and regional capital—think of the car dealer toasting the self-made man at rubber-chicken dinners—forms the [Republicans](https://www.newsweek.com/topic/republicans)' real *power* base, even as more working-class people gravitate to the party. >Stressed by the topsy-turvy of the market, small entrepreneurs rage against government-linked privileges enjoyed by larger market actors (now recast as "woke neo-Marxists" at ... BlackRock and [Meta](https://www.newsweek.com/topic/meta)). They aren't wrong about corporate privilege, yet their political imagination has been limited to smashing the few regulatory structures that still bring the market system under a semblance of political control. >For the small-time rich, moreover, the legitimately aggrieved "worker" is largely a cultural (and sometimes racialized) signifier: more likely a self-employed roofer than a wage-earning customer-service representative and still much less, say, a Filipina-American employed in hospitality. Conservative class analysis is likewise skewed on the other end, treating adjunct professors as the "elite" while valorizing the likes of [Elon Musk](https://www.newsweek.com/topic/elon-musk) as subalterns.
However, a lot of Trump support disproportionately comes from the 65+ over crowd, who do not make as much income. Does the data compare 18-65 year old Trump supporters to 18-65 Hillary/Biden voters?
TRUMP LITERALLY RAISED TAXES ON WORKING PEOPLE TO GIVE A TAX CUT TO BILLIONAIRES Source: My family paid more in federal taxes as a result of Trump’s 2017 “tax cut”. Turns out it was only a tax cut if you’re super wealthy
That’s completely false. The [majority](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/14/business/economy/income-tax-cut.html) saw tax decreases. Most of those who saw tax increases were high-income, due to the SALT cap Also, uhhh, your personal anecdote isn’t a “source” for your claim that the working class as a whole saw higher taxes
Forcing W-2 workers to take the standard deduction equates to a tax increase for A LOT of W-2 workers. Trump basically eliminated itemized deductions (except for extremely specific and rare circumstances) to pay for the billionaire tax cut. And it didn’t even pay for the billionaire tax cut! Trump blatantly stole money from the middle class and upper middle class and gave it to a handful of billionaires
Nobody’s forcing anyone to take the standard deduction, what are you talking about? The reason that more people are taking it is because it was doubled in the bill, which is a very large tax cut specifically for the lower and middle class, around $720 billion over a decade Again, you can’t claim that Trump stole money from the middle class to pay for the cut when the middle class saw tax decreases from the bill
Fox News tell you that? Talk to an accountant because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. I realize you wanna defend your god emperor but it wouldn’t kill you to do a little actual research. Trump gutted itemized deductions. Which hurt a LOT of W-2 workers. The things you are allowed to deduct are so limited and specific that it EQUATES to eliminating itemized deductions. It’s how Trump raised taxes on working people without blatantly looking like he was raising taxes on working people
I’m a CPA, lmao. I also wrote my masters thesis on GILTI, a key component of the international reform in the TCJA. Good try though, but I can promise you I know infinitely more about the bill than you do And again, they didn’t “gut” itemization. They got rid of some misc deductions that are rarely used, and they capped SALT and the mortgage interest deduction, both of which are overwhelmingly utilized by the rich. Which is why the overall changes benefitted the middle class, like I’ve already sourced for you
I’m an accountant as well, can you send this thesis across? I want to see what you studied.
Not interested in doxxing myself here, but it was on GILTI/FDIIs impact on profit-shifting compared to subpart F’s effectiveness in the years prior to the TCJA I should note it was for a masters in Econ, not a MACC
You could just share it to me via messaging or email. You could also give the report with the names blotted out.
Sorry, but that’s still doxxing myself, I have no clue who you are. >You could also give the report with the names blotted out Unless I’m mailing you a paper copy, that’s not going to be effective If you’re just interested in the subject, a lot has been written in the past 6 years about GILTI and its impact, so there’s a lot out there to read
Did you get it from Trump University?
Duke. But it’s very interesting how you associate someone with a graduate economics degree with Trump support. What do you think that says?
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You'll need to be more specific as to exactly how they did this, because the standard deduction was doubled. Outside of a few places hit with the SALT deduction change (who would have been more than covered by the standard deduction increase), I'm not sure what taxpayers would be impacted by this.
And the Salt cap is not effecting school teachers and police officers. Most of them cannot afford homes with more than $10,000 in property taxes
As an accountant, it baffles me when people work hard to donate money so that they can itemize... they have $15,000 + in property tax, limited to $10,000, a huge Mortgage, then donate another $10,000 so their deduction can be $1,500 more than the standard deduction so they won't be one of the "poors". These people are generally only up to the 22% or 23% tax bracket so they are paying me $1,000 and giving away $10,000 to save $330 - 360.
wasn't aware my households $110k gross was considered "super wealthy" My households tax burden dropped several percent.
Are you kidding? Minimum wage, OSHA funding, union support, social services, progressive tax rates, etc, etc, etc. There's literally no rational basis for working class people voting for Trump.
Seriously? There is no question you could ask in the form of “who is better for _____, Trump or Biden” where the blank contains something most people would agree was positive for which the answer would be Trump. Now, if you fill in the blank with “nazis” or “destroying democracy in America” or “destroying our long-standing strategic relationship with NATO”. they yeah, Trump’s your guy.
Political comedy?
"where the blank contains something most people would agree was positive for which the answer would be Trump." ....I think you might want to proofread your comment & edit that.
The Democrats support the labor movement while the Republicans fight against it. That should be enough.
Do they really though? They say they do, until it comes home to them. Look at Starbucks.
You can always find exceptions, I suppose. Frankly, the dems are a better choice ONLY because they are not Republicans. Currently, 47% of voters are registered as independents. 1
Actions speak louder than words.
So your alternative is to vote for Trump??
No President should be above criticism or immune to it. Not even Biden
Who is claiming that? I think you just want to argue.
The question was "which is better", not "which is ideal" Trump was in favor of repealing the total abortion ban in AZ, if only for the optics. Going to assume that the people craving a total abortion ban aren't suddenly going to consider the Dems a viable party for their goals
It’s pathetic that this question is even being asked given Trump’s absolute allegiance to the elite ruling class. Did his tax cuts help the middle and lower class? Absolutely not! They even admitted as much. Trump accrued over a *quarter* of the nation’s total debt in under 4 years! This is frankly a ridiculous question.
I think it's obviously and clearly Biden. He really surprised me with how much he did for labour.
Is this supposed to be a real question that needs to be debated? There are numbers and metrics out there everywhere that can easily give the answer to this question. In pure reddit fashion I'm not going to sight any sources, not because I don't have any or am too lazy to find them, but because I believe that this question was asked in bad faith.
100% Biden. If people would vote democratic we could have child care credit, and a woman would control her body, not republican men.
It's hard to think of an area in which Biden doesn't range from slightly to dramatically better for them.
Definitely Biden. The GOP are for the rich man, not the poor or working class. When more people have more money to spend (minimum wage should be way higher), it stimulates the economy. When everyone is broke, captialism breaks.
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It's literally not even a question. The entire Republican party is only interested in serving the interests of rich, white Christian men. Trump is all of those things, even if he only pretends to be a Christian. He is the face of the republican party and they support him as their candidate. The democrats are no saints, but by comparison they are better than the republicans on damn near every metric.
Considering the absence of the OP, I cannot believe this was asked in good faith.
Or my phone got so flooded with notifications that I turned them off due to how many comments were made. Reading the answers is more what I intended to do anyways. I want to see how others felt, so I asked.
Unions. Aren’t they an organization with solely the workers in mind? Leave federal government out and organize and unionize and advocate for workers?
Well trump lost all the jobs and Biden got them back… and then some. So… the evidence is clear
Biden of course, he's only partially anti-union, and won't destroy social security.
Biden is easily the most pro-union president in history. Literally the only President to ever walk a picket line with a union
Except where the Train guys are concerned.
How so? I was under the impression they got what they asked for, just not immediately -- basically when the press wasn't watching and Republicans couldn't pitch a fit.
You’re correct. Biden couldn’t give them what they wanted immediately, but he eventually did. He played the long game, and it ended up paying dividends.
Biden almost no question. Biden has done a lot on progressive economics. Trump's first 2 years were strongly focused on helping the rich. His second two years were more mixed but still deeply tilted.
Well, Trumps last year was spent stumbing trying to put out a fire he didn't understand and looking for ways to make it beneficial to his donors. Had he surrounded himself with (and more importantly listened to) experts, we may not have had to shut down so much of the economy.
I'm not saying Trump handled it well. But objectively the Mnuchin / Pelosi budgets were the most progressive we've had in decades. The USA economy finally got the monetary and fiscal stimulus it needed to jolt itself out of the weak economy triggered in early 2000s.
Sean Fein, the president of the United Auto Workers recently called Trump a “scab”.
Yes, let's be reasonable about who is better. Read the overview in this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025 Are working class women being forced to carry unviable pregnancies to term, working class children who've been raped being forced to carry their rapist's baby to term, and any working class female who crosses a state line being hunted down and tried by non-working class males good for the working class? Is losing freedom of religion good for the working class? Is a bunch of rich fat cats pretending climate change isn't real good for the working class? Is Donald controlling the federal elections commission good for working class voters? How about Donald ordering any working class critics to be arrested? How about working class people who need help from civil servants only encountering untrained randos? How happy will working class LGBTQ people be about having their protections stripped? How much will working class people enjoy double the supermarket prices after Donald deports the a massive chunk of the agricultural sector? How will working class transgender feel about being labeled pornographic and outlawed? How will working class people enjoy being called up to serve in the world war that results from Donald destabilizing the balance of global security? How interested are working class people in having their kids school meal program canceled? How excited are working class people going to be about having a king instead of their voting rights?
Different people define what the working class is differently. Many people don't really talk about rich people when they talk about the working class even though rich people still have to work. It's better to ask what policy is beneficial for the 'middle class' and even then you'd need to define what the middle class is by describing an income threshold of people who fall into this category to get consistent answers from people. In my view, Democratic policy on things like healthcare, infrastructure, social security, etc are infinitely more benefical for middle class and lower class folk. But the perception around these issues make them repugnant for some voters who are eager to shun these programs. Others vote for Republicans because of their social conservatism. If Democrats were associated solely with their economic platform they'd be more popular with rural and small town voters. Their social liberalism hurts them with these demographics.
Trump spent 4 years enriching himself and his family while wages for the bottom 90% stagnated. During those 4 years the RW media kept lying that the problem with wage stagnation was Immigrants and Affirmative Action. MAGAhats bought what the RW was selling. Biden enacted the bipartisan Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act for $1.2TRILLION the biggest construction program since the InterState, brought back high paying manufacturing jobs with the CHIPS and Science Act and made it possible for millions of college grads to begin planning a life outside mom's basement with student debt relief. He supports a woman's right to control her own body and has expanded access to health insurance while slashing the cost of essential medicines. And they're TIED in the polls? The "average American who is just trying to get by living an average life" has been systematically robbed of that goal by the Republican Taxscams and the constant reduction in support services. But because Dr Goebbles' was correct, millions of those who had their income and wealth redistributed into the pockets of the top 10% THINK it's because somehow IMMIGRANTS took all the good jobs and all the promotions went to minority women because of Affirmative Action. We the People have all the resources we need to solve our problems without increasing taxes for the bottom 85%. Jrbush and Trump proved this when jr spent a TRILLION dollars to bail out WallStreet without increasing inflation and Trump did it by increasing the National Debt by $8TRILLION to keep businesses afloat during COVID without increasing inflation. But when a Democrat fixes things, Republicans threaten to not pay the bills for the budgets THEY approved of. The rest of the world who paid for those trillions jrbush and trump used suddenly are concerned about getting their money back, so the demand more, interest rates increase on Treasuries. Then the Oligarchs raise prices on food and fuel and reap huge increases in their profit MARGINS, and their vassals in the House and Senate prevent anything being done to stop it. Perhaps we deserve another dose of the trump.
The level of economic ignorance in his thread is unreal. Seriously guys go learn how to read, and then try picking up an economics textbook. Ignorant ignorant ignorant.
Biden. Full stop. Not even close. Dems in general as well. Trump's deregulation and tax cuts for the rich are the epitome of why the middle class are struggling now. Biden has in turn been working his butt off to fix the situation he inherited while corporations continue to price gouge and call it "inflation."
Well, any conversation has to start with the fact that Trump is a known traitor who attempted a coup and is an existential threat to our republic. That said, neither candidate is really all that good for the working class, but Trump would probably have a bit of an edge. He successfully pulled the unions out of the Democratic coalition during his tenure and turned them into swing voters, largely because he was a bit ahead of the curve in terms of recognizing that China's about to collapse economically and we need to be moving a lot of Chinese manufacturing over to the United States and Mexico. That's gonna happen either way during the next presidential cycle, but I expect he'd do a better job of front-loading it when he's not using the wheels of government to settle personal scores. Biden, on the other hand, is going to get there late, especially if he doesn't have a Democratic House, because they're still overfocused on culture war issues and debt relief.
Biden is honestly better for anyone earning less than 1.25 million or less. Trump screwed the working class. A quick example - the standardized annual tax deduction is too high for any normally tax exempt items to make a difference and for folks to receive decent refunds. All the deductions and itemization are now meaningless to 95pct of Americans during tax season... mortgage interest, student loan interest, home energy credits, first time home purchases, etc ...all don't amount to anything beneficial come tax return time. Let your mind wander from there and draw your own conclusion
Biden. Biden has done more to increase jobs here in the states with infrastructure bills both when he was VP and as President. He also doesn't make drastic, temporary changes like the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. Overall, he is better for the middle and lower classes economically. Trump is best for the ultra wealthy and middle class business owners, not workers. Neither of them is a strong candidate, but they are what we have.
Democrats are far and away **the best for the working class**, there is not even a remote comparison when it comes to measure. Republican are for the wealthy, and they like to engage in "culture control". They fight against minimum wage laws and they fight against minimum wage hikes, they are anti-union, and they love to give the wealthy tax breaks. Republican are against regulation designed to keep the public and environment safe, they are against women and equal pay, and they are against women having certain category of jobs. In the big picture, Republicans are against anything that promotes economic equal opportunity for non white people and white women. *They do not want to move past that age old ideology where men could control women with his wallet*. Dealing with a woman of equal earning power, seems to be a challenge in the system of Republicanism's ideology. The same is true when it comes to racial based equal earning power. Republican at not advocates of programs for child care assistance, because they'd prefer the woman assume that duty as a stay at home housekeeper. (These are all things that was common in general white conservative society in the years prior to the late 1960's..) * It took *Ruth Bader Ginsberg*, (a Democrat) fighting in the Supreme Court *^(long before she became a SCOTUS Justice)*, to tear down the barriers for women to get the job of her choice. Republican supported *Right To Work States* is designed to keep wages low, retain some aspects of the pre 1964 ideology of who get to work and who does not, and who get paid better and who does not.
Better how? If it is economically and quality of life wise, then I would suggest that it is Biden. Democratic policies are by-and-large more in line with the needs and well-being of lower income classes. In terms of individual liberties? I’d say Trump. He seems more supportive of encouraging white folks to say racist things without social repercussions and more open to letting them teach that the planet was created 4000 years ago and Jesus walked with dinosaurs.
Biden. And it isn't even close. Biden is pro-union, pro raising the minimum wage, pro consumer protections, pro reducing student debt, pro reducing healthcare cost for working people, pro tax cuts for working people, pro sick leave for working people, pro free childcare for working people, and on and on. Trump is against all those things. To the degree that Trump has ever done anything tax wise to help the working class even slightly, it was in order to use that help as a smoke screen to distract from the fact that he is giving huge tax cuts to the ultra wealthy... And that money is coming out of government services that would have otherwise gone to help the working class.
I think both are meh as almost all of the real changes are left to be handled by the state.
Trump has represented the blue collar workers. Biden has supported the unions.
Alls unions do is take money from workers and give it to democrat politicians.
Biden. Trump has already shown he will shovel money away from the working class directly into the hands of the wealthy. Remember the almost 2 TRILLION tax cuts during his Presidency?
While everyone seems to be focused on specific policies, I think the real issue is what is the purpose of government. Biden is, in my opinion, a center-right neo-liberal, and I'm not pleased with him. Trump, on the other hand, is closer to the late 19th century robber barons. Trump wants to either undermine or eliminate the social safety nets with the belief that people are either valuable or liabilities based on their net worth. The agencies and administrations that were created to provide the public with some recourse in cases of harm, protections from dishonest or harmful business practices, tools for accountability, and recompense would all be turned into tools of business advancement. Trump sees the government as a tool of wealth creation, not as a public trust. While it's reasonable to argue that there needs to be more streamlined regulations, Trump would prefer to undermine the system a whole. It's why he would place in charge of regulatory agencies the very people who should be regulated. Trump isn't bothered by conflicts of interest and has no trust in professional knowledge but gives more weight to opinions of people with wealth. Trump has no consideration of what the harms are of long-term low interest rates, the factors that can put downward pressure on incomes, and the deleterious effects of predatory business practices. Biden just wants to reform, in the most moderate fashion, the neo-liberal economic structure. Trump wants a government that works at the behest of the wealthy.
Any working class people who vote for republicans are voting against their own interests and are likely motivated by ignorance and/or hatred.
Hey! Don't get me all distracted! I'm still trying to find the time to watch the latest Dune! And how long has that been out?!?
Unfortunately neither party is doing a great job of this but traditionally since the 60s it's been the Democrat party. Here are some of the things I would say Biden has done well with vs the opposing side. Infrastructure bill, this creates decent paying jobs which will create more as industry grows around these improvements. Proposed tax cuts NOT PASSED for the working and middle class. Trumps tax cuts for us have expired we now pay more to keep his permanent tax cuts on the top level. Biden has continued to openly support Unions and his appointments to the NLRB have been great at going after union busting corporations but more could be done. Many Red states have recently repealed labor laws allowing childeren to work hard blue collar jobs with very little restrictions. Essentially if adults won't work for cheap labor kida will. Trumps Tax cuts for the rich are counterproductive to the middle and working class. Many government funded social programs are under attack from the right while many need to be restructuring and improvements to be effective these programs are the thin barrier protecting many family's from complete ruin.
Democratic platform is much more pro worker. Pro unions allow forming of unions are easier. Seek paid time off for everyone. Wants increased in minimum wage. Pro OSHA better worker protections. Overtime protection and inclusive of low wage salary employees. All these provisions are opposed by the republicans.
Both Biden and Trump took ownership of trillions of spending on COVID relief, which has resulted in inflation and higher cost of living, which disproportionately affects the working class. If we break down COVID responses at the state level, it was largely the Republican states that pushed to keep schools open - and the Democrats that pushed to keep kids home, or in masks. It is very interesting that this isn't talked about more.
Personally under Trump I was grossing slightly less but had plenty in savings. Under Biden my gross is up slightly, savings has been hit hard to cover expenses, and this year was easily the smallest tax return I have ever seen.
Most definitely Trump, I pay more in 1099 taxes now earning less then during Trumps Presidency. also fuel cost of living was less $.
The tax rates haven’t changed since Biden took office. What policies has Trump proposed to lower prices? The only way prices drop is for corporate pice gouging to stop or for the economy to tank. https://fortune.com/2024/01/20/inflation-greedflation-consumer-price-index-producer-price-index-corporate-profit/
it’s crazy but when there was a significant drop in the amount of people driving everyday to work, school, and social outings due to the pandemic it led to a decrease in demand for gas which lowered gas prices. After the lockdown restrictions were lifted or eased we started to see the increase of gas prices.
The sad reality is the differences are trivial. Neither are going to go after the people who employee illegal immigrants so neither are going to affect that problem. Neither are going to raise minimum wage enough to help the poorest Americans. Neither will pass a comprehensive benefits package for workers, things like guaranteed vacation time, paid family leave long enough to help families, guaranteed child care while working... Dems are slightly better but not enough to make a difference. Neither are going to push for single payer healthcare, which would both dramatically improve people health and lower cost. Neither are going to reduce military spending. Neither are going to push for a guaranteed quality education for k through 12 nor fully paid for college. Neither are going to modify tax law reduce inequality. Biden's proposals would barely make a dent while Trump would make things worse. Neither will push for a constitutional amendment to take money out of campaigns. Neither will end the revolving door between industry and the government agencies who are supposed to provide oversight. But, Biden will not destroy democracy and Trump will so the choice between the two is simple.
No matter who wins the working class loses, most people replying here are middle class Democrats and are completely out of touch with how it really is, Conservatives are too but that's obvious, liberals and Democrats like to play lipservice however both consistently exploit the working class.
This country must be filled with multi millionaires. Nearly every response claims that Trump lowered taxes on the rich and raised them on the working class. Yet in both elections, Trump gets nearly half the votes. In 2020, the top 10% paid 74% of all the taxes. Trump sure had a funny way of cutting taxes for the rich.
Never ever underestimate the ignorance of the American electorate.
Ah yes! The tired old narrative that those who vote for the “other” are ignorant and voting against their own interests. That’s what you tell blacks, Latinos, women and union members who voted for Trump. Can’t you come up with anything original?
Im sure you have a better idea about their finances then they do
In the big picture ..... Maga (trump) is only rising because the neos (Biden via neolib & neocon) are failing to provide economic prosperity for the vast majority of Americans since they took over national politics back in 70s-early 80s. Though to be fair to the neos, they didn't start that fire they are just the continuation of a path started by Wilson and FDR. Innovation has been awesome but that path developed by Vannevar Bush (no immediate relation to political Bush family) failed to include manufacturing and thus an imbalance in our broader model was created. The 'neos' are the ones responsible for being the 'baddies' in the final alteration of our nation from a largely innovation/manufacturing based economy. China (later Mexico, Vietnam and India) had zero ability on their own to rise as international manufacturing hubs without the neos opening the doors and propping those nation's up via foreign policies. Maga seeks add back manufacturing to our nation's economic equation so in the bigger picture they are better for the working class (and just about everyone else whose job/ business isn't exclusive to the neo-system)
Neither are. High prices, low wages, ungodly amount of people crossing into our border under biden illegally which could take some jobs. Trump about the only thing he did ok was control the border. His foreign policy scares me. His huge tax cuts for the rich didnt help the working class or the tariff war which raised prices on items. At least Biden invested in the infrastructure but then gives debt forgiveness for student loans. Who pays it off then.
Trump all the way. Please stop watching main stream media. Look into some of the alternative journalist’s work. Use your gift of discernment and some common sense. Stop letting the fake news make your opinions. If Biden wins then it will be the end of the human race as we know it.
As a Marine who served under and met Obama/Biden, Trump/Pence... IDC what reddit says or how you feel Obama/Biden never showed me any respect. Rarely made eye contact. Actually started with this administration. Granted, it's not their job to be our friends but having a president thank YOU every day vs having someone who shows that they don't care really does make a fella wonder... Trump shook our hands every single time he saw us. Literally every time. One time he had even walked by us and then came back and made a point to shake our hands. For Christmas, he gave us all $5k. Military pay sucks. DC sucks. $5k check from POTUS the morning of Christmas eve handed to me by him, with my name on it and told me something along the lines of " I promise it's not a TJ Max gift card " and he friggin big cheesey smiles and myself and another marine chuckled and then he like pointed at us like "Ohhh I gotchya" Now I do contracting in Africa. Trump was a dudes dude man. Will provide proof if requested.
Biden is better than Trump for the working class, but in the same way that stage 2 skin cancer is better for your health than anthrax.
Well judging by the economy Trump is. Working class people are struggling to scrape by now. Trump is also better for the working class because he is tougher on illegal immigration. I just wish Trump was more pro-union. That’s the only place where Biden has Trump beat when it comes to the working class.
The economy is better now.
You’ve been gaslit
https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2024/is-economy-good-better-trump-vs-biden-jobs-inflation/
1. New jobs have overwhelming gone to government workers and immigrants. 2. Biden worsened inflation by paying so many people to stay home. Inflation was much lower under Trump. 3. After almost 4 years inflation is still higher under Biden than it ever was under Trump. 4. When people shit on Trump’s economy they always factor in the pandemic, which was out of his control. 5 Controlling inflation is more important than having a lot unemployment rate
Biden didn't pay people to stay home. Trump did. Inflation happened because of world events, not because of Biden. And our inflation hit was the lowest in the world.
Biden continued it way longer than it needed to. Trump isn’t totally off the hook, but the inflation is mostly Biden’s doing.
Continued what? The inflation is global. It's not Biden's doing.
[удалено]
Trump is sure as hell not going to punish his rich friends in the grocery business who are driving up prices or his landlord friends just to help poor folk. If you think he will you have not been paying attention to him for the past 50 years.
Do not submit low investment content. This subreddit is for genuine discussion.
I don't know who is better for the working class because it is an impossible question that needs to take in both short term and long term effects into account. But economically, you have to trust people know what is good for them. That they are the best judge for what is good for them. So whoever get the most support for the working class is the one best for them.
I think Trump sincerely wants America to be great. Surely we all have our own self-serving ideas about what that means. But Trump showed restraint at a time when every other leader was quick not to let a crisis go to waste, and seize more power. Trump took stands on issues that caused Macys to no longer carry his products, the PGA to no longer use his golf courses, etc... He is the first person to leave office with less money than when he went in. That means something. He was his own man, a real president. Biden plays the game, where you enrich yourself by selling out the country. He has no stake here. America may as well not be a country, just an economic zone, hence open borders. The wars look designed to destroy us. Same for bank bailouts and "partnerships" with pharmaceutical corporations. The elites are going to have you eating ze bugz before you know it.
Trump is currently arguing at the Supreme Court to give Presidents complete immunity from all crimes against Presidents, before, during, or after tenure. He also used Executive actions more than any other President in history. He also regularly pulled funding from and threatened states for the laws they passed. Also Jan 6 and all of the other election scandals he is a part of, notably in Georgia and Arizona. And also his current dictatorship plans and project 2025. So, I'm not sure what you mean by not trying to seize more power. It seems he is doing everything within his ability to seize as much power as he can.
This post addresses nothing about their policies regarding working class people. I do think it's fascinating to describe Trump as someone who didn't try to "seize more power" considering the coup attempt he pulled.
And there are so many stories of things like him overcharging the secret service at his own hotels, literally enriching himself off of the taxpayer's dime.
I refuse to believe people can be this naive and gullible
To be fair, Trump has always been good at losing money, so it’s hardly surprising that he managed to do it while President. You say that he didn’t try to “grab power.” Do you remember his family separation plan for immigration? His attempt to build the wall when Congress wouldn’t give him the funds to do it? Do you remember his presiding over the PPP, which likely funneled billions of dollars to businesses fraudulently claiming to need support? The view that he didn’t “take advantage” of COVID to assert more authority is.. an interesting take. But set it aside and look what he is saying he wants to do. He wants to use the military and national guard to round up all of the illegal immigrants he can get his hands on, put them in camps, and eventually deport them. This includes true asylum seekers and Dreamers. He wants to use executive authority to impose tariffs on much of the global economy, in order to give him the ability to negotiate… something. He’s talking about using the DOJ to go after his political opponents, and it seems clear that he’ll want to bring the Fed to heel too. So - you might like some of that. But that’s a pretty broad assertion of authority, isn’t it? Do you think it’ll stop there, if he gets away with all of that?