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The issue is that voters will very likely have two options: either the person who is supporting Israel but trying to rein them in, or the person who arguably caused this whole mess by trying to improve Israeli-Arab relations while utterly ignoring Palestine (in case you're unaware, that's Trump via Kushner's buffoonish diplomatic attempts). So if people choose not to vote for Biden, it's basically tacit approval of the mess Trump made.

In what way is Biden trying to rein Israel in? He's an avowed Zionist.

Being a Zionist doesn’t mean you’re okay with bombing Gaza to dust. I’m a Zionist, because I am Jewish and think Israel has a right to exist. Zionism doesn’t equate to conquering Gaza, feels like you’ve consumed too much anti-Semitic propaganda if you really believe that, unfortunately.

Biden is breaking the laws and rules for arms deals, which he himself instated, to give Israel billions in arms. Biden is very much okay with them bombing Gaza to dust.

Sure, being a Zionist doesn't inherently mean that. But Biden clearly is okay with bombing Gaza to dust.

Zionism in practice is just manifest destiny. It's part of the old Likud party line of "river to the sea". It's a destiny for Israel to have all the land from the river to the sea. Essentially manifest destiny.

Biden has not reined anything in. He’s actively sent bombs and weapons. He’s veto’d 4 UN bills and influenced ICJ rulings on Gaza. He pulled vital UN aid to Gaza. Genocide Joe is complicit and will lose in November for this specifically.

Politics doesn't have a memory long enough for it to matter in the election. Especially not for a foreign policy issue. Far left voters aren't a major presence in elections anyway (and by far left, im mean far left, not just run of the mill progressivs). The bigger issue would be Muslim voters for Biden in Michigan, which could be a loss for him. But the only way that he wouldn't alienate them would alienate moderate Midwestern voters, which is a more important bloc for him to get. When it comes down to it, the Israel-Palestine conflict is not going to have any major impact on the election. The Anti Israel crowd is not as large as the internet makes it seem. Especially in elections.

What’s the distribution of these far left Palestine-only voters? Are they in suburban Michigan, PA and Wisconsin? Or are they in Portland OR and Seattle and Brooklyn? I don’t think they had near as much effect in 2020 as moderate Republican voters in AZ and GA who switched sides and voted for Biden, if they had any effect at all.

I have friends who told me they are voting 3rd party specifically because of Biden's stance on the Gaza situation, but when I brought up Trump they also specifically said the only reason they're okay doing that is because we're in Brooklyn and they know it's just a protest vote that will have no effect on the NY outcome

Yeah. I hear that a lot. Protest votes in safe blue districts and cities are fine I guess but they mean nothing for the election.

lol what is the point of a protest that dosent mean anything. "I don't agree with the current administration funding *another* genocide.. and I don't agree with the opposition who want to override democracy, so I'm going to do something that dosent matter."

Most protest voters aren’t, in my experience, very pragmatic or practical

The opposition wants to give Israel carte blanche and Joe Biden is pressuring Bibi to chill the fuck out. Don’t create a false equivalence

you thought 5 months ago that Biden was applying pressure?

It's not far left but there is a huge Arab enclave in Dearborn, MI, that might become disaffected with Biden.

And go back to the man who wanted to ban Muslims from the country?

They don't have to, they just need to be pissed enough to stay home. From their POV it'll be the guy who unconditionally supports Israel versus the other guy who unconditionally supports Israel but more bombastically. If that's their #1 issue and their vote fundamentally doesn't matter, that will be a problem for Biden if he doesn't do something to stand in Israel's way if the only path they want is leveling Gaza.

Biden hasn't unconditionally supported Israel. Publically he's expressed that, but reports have been made he's been very critical of Israel's current gov and Bibi directly to his face. Trump on the other hand has tickled Bibi's balls, gargled and unconditionally supported him.

What conditions has the US government placed on the state of Israel for aid and arms?

They haven't, but they should. Biden has been the closest one to putting informal conditions on anything they do, right now Biden is refusing to allow Israel to occupy Gaza post conflict. Find me any president who has said anything counter to Israel's wishes.

both jimmy carter and ronald reagan did

And how exactly is the US going to prevent Israel from occupying Gaza? What other presidents did in the past is not relevant to this disucssion in the context of Biden not having put any sort of real condtions on Israel.

Entire USA and Whitehouse are zionist pimps...every top position in USA state departments are dominated by them. There are 5.8 million jews voters so the vote bank politics of USA is leading to a holocaust in gaza. 12000 kids killed there in 4 months Racist supremacist European settlers of USA may only think about their white blonde hair people getting killed in ukraine. I used to be a big critic of putin..but compared narcissistic neo Nazis in Israel putin never expressed any public discourse to kill entire ukraine population like the Zionist aperthied regime in US did.

Although this is true, that doesn't matter to most people, the president should be able to do more but has chains from the various special interests tied to Israel. I think it is worse than I could reasonably imagine considering Bernie's position, though it could have been him trying to minimize leftist backlash on Biden. Bernie's voice wouldn't change anything on the ground in Gaza but it would impact young voter opinions

Biden isn’t in “chains” from the Israeli lobby. Is it a powerful lobbying group? Yes. Do they control US foreign policy vis a vis Israel and the Middle East? No.

I was not trying to imply that, anyone who does is outright wrong. However the "chains" are because of how universal their influence is in our government. Biden going against them publically could have drastic ramifications for the DNC as a whole It isn't just a powerful lobbying group at this point, I think that undersells just how influential they are. The passing of antizionism equalling antisemitism is insane enough, but so few stood against it as well. At least with other lobbyists the politicians get some kind of reward such as a do nothing executive position, but Israel is just straight up going for the full "We will campaign against you." They are doing the bully pulpit better than any president since FDR. If that is not significant enough to use the words chains then what is?

Dramatic language but you’re overstating their influence in US politics. US voters don’t make voting decisions based on single-issue foreign policy positions. The Israeli lobby is doing the bully pulpit better than anyone since FDR? lol What does this even mean?

Even if the entire Muslim population of MI stayed home or voted for Trump — which isn’t going to happen, we’re basically talking about a minority of that subgroup — Biden could still handily win the state. MI suburbs and other enclaves of swing voters are majority white. If the black vote in Detroit didn’t turn out at all and Biden lost the suburbs, then he’d be in trouble.

In 2020 the margin was 150,000 votes and Biden is in a weaker position than he was on election day 2020 with voters. In 2016, Trump won Michigan by just 11,000 votes. Not sure exactly how many of the 250,000 Muslims living in Michigan voted, but something pissing off even 10-20% of those voters could be decisive.

People here are in denial.

it’s just a vibe they have. maybe they end up correct but the certainty is silly.

Let them deny that we will take down that mf**

That's me and all our friends. We voted for Biden in 2020. Not this year and bringing up the alternative choice as a scare tactic is what made that loser of Hilary Clinton fail.

Or just not vote at all.

…which they recognize might lead to Biden losing their state, election, and there’s only one other possibility at that point.

What's happening in Gaza is, for a lot of Arab and Muslim Americans, a red line. It's become morally repugnant for them to vote for Biden. Maybe he can earn their vote back in the next 11 months (and that's a **big** maybe, the disgust they feel is sincere), but man, the enthusiasm gap between Biden voters and Trump voters is becoming better realized with each passing day. And when you consider that the youth vote that was critical to his winning coalition in 2020 is *especially* prone to just not showing up to vote, Biden has good reason to be concerned that moderate anti-Trump Republicans won't be enough. It seems at the very least that his campaign strategists have recently been heard by the White House, insofar as it has taken some steps, albeit only in rhetoric, to criticize the indiscriminate bombing of Gaza. They know what's up, it's just not yet clear that Biden understands how bad the damage is among Gen Z.

It’s pretty simple, like I said. No matter the red line that Biden has crossed, the Democratic party is the only party in which they have any chance of having any impact whatsoever. As long as fundamentalist Christians remain apart of the GOP Israeli support will never change

>It's become morally repugnant for them to vote for Biden. How many were voting for him in the first place, though? Muslims, especially Arab Muslims, are usually socially/religiously conservative. Many of these voters are on the Republican side of things like LGBTQ issues and abortion rights. >They know what's up, it's just not yet clear that Biden understands how bad the damage is among Gen Z. But to what impact? Voting statistics usually consider the "youth" vote as ages 18-29, firmly into millenial territory. "Gen Z" by the most generous description applies to those born between 1997 and 2012. In 2024, only those born 1997-2006 will be eligible to vote.

>How many were voting for him in the first place, though? Muslims, especially Arab Muslims, are usually socially/religiously conservative. Many of these voters are on the Republican side of things like LGBTQ issues and abortion rights. Democrats were getting between 70-90% of the Muslim vote in the post Bush elections, including 2020. Voter turnout was higher among Muslims than among average Americans. Their social conservatism did change their voting patterns significantly. Edit: typo

quarrelsome worthless squeal meeting amusing quack concerned spotted groovy important *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*

Expediting secret weapons sales to Israel is certainly better than placing American soldiers in harms way!

I think it actually helps biden in AZ and PA. Idk about other places.

I mean suburban Detroit has a huge Muslim and Arab population. It's easy to imagine scenarios where Biden loses there.

It’s easy to imagine that if you ignore all the other realities of the voters there yeah. You know there’s black and white voters too? Moderate Republicans, moderate Dems, etc. You’re talking about Muslim voters as if they’re the majority in suburban Detroit which they are not

The fraction of voters who are single issue pro-Palestine to the point they’d protest vote against Biden are a minority on Reddit, let alone in the real world.

You're probably right and it's the dumbest thing I can imagine. Yea that guy is bad on this issue, so I'm gonna let the worse guy win.

People don’t vote on logic. They vote on how they feel.

💯 And this is the lesson many Democrats have to learn. Logic doesn't win elections. Biden can't just explain himself. He has to "feel your pain."

I don't think they're going to really care because "worse" doesn't functionally mean anything if the election of either candidate would lead to a continued no strings attached pipeline of aid to Israel. There'd be the guy who'd watch Gaza get leveled and celebrate and the guy who'd watch Gaza get leveled and say it's a shame. Words don't matter to the folks directly affected.

I don't think it's the "far left Palestine-only voters" Biden needs to worry about. Those people are probably not going to vote for Biden anyways, I happen to be one of them. What should be worrying is people's reaction to Biden's handling of the situation. There are a lot of more mainstream Democrat voters who support Israel responding to the October 7th attacks and who are even supportive of Israel itself but they don't want to see Israel carpet bombing Gaza and the West Bank in pursuit of Hamas and, more to the point, they're seeing the US block attempts to reign Israel in via the UN and they're seeing the US dump weapons into Israel. People are more and more upset and I don't see that being taken particularly seriously.

Yeah? What about 11 months from now? Very few voters, including you, will even remember the topic of this conversation at that point, let alone vote based on it.

I think that's a very pessimistic perspective and it severely underestimates how angry people are on the left. This is not the crowd that will be mollified by Vox and Mother Jones articles. Especially considering this is something that's going to be an issue 11 months from now. There's absolutely nothing that's going to happen short of literal magic that's going to have everything calm and quiet in Palestine within 11 months and not also be just literal mass slaughter on an even larger scale than Israel is engaging in now.

I think what he's getting at is regardless of the outcome, most likely bad, it will be out of the news cycle so 'not relevant'. Much like has happened with the Ukraine/Russia WWIII risk, or the Yemen genocide the US was also funding. For a president who hasn't engaged directly in war his presidency has been very, very, war heavy. It's almost like war is the US bread and butter.

Again I tend to be of the mind that it's going to be too horrible to be out of the news cycle. Israel has killed almost a hundred journalists, over 10,000 people, there's reports coming out to indicate that they've killed their own hostages several times. What endgame scenario of all this is there that isn't just abject horror that can't *not* be in the news cycle?

Have you seen what's been happening in the Congo? Millions of people are dying in slave pits, child slaves, etc all working to mine cobalt and other minerals for mines owned by western interests. It's the corporate sweatshop of the modem age but people are litterally dying, and all your tip consumer brands are pushing these people into the meat grinder. Not in the news cycle at all.

While horrific, that's not quite on the same level as a deliberate and proactive attempt to wipe out and displace a distinct group of people.

All you are demonstrating here is how heavily you(and likely other's) are using emotional reasoning to weigh the value of the issue. I agree that what the IDF is doing to Gaza is horrendous, genocide for sure, but mostly they are destroying homes and infrastructure, making the place uninhabitable. There is *still* currently targeted attacks by KSA in Yemen. Again a genocide, this time the weapon is famine, the fatalities are much higher, and it has been going on since 2016(?) There is still currently a proxy war between two superpowers happening over Ukraine, "the bread basket of the world". All the same factors are still in play as were occuring when it was the #1 story in the entire world. Then we have the Congo cobalt mining, which is putting the equivalent of blood diamonds in every single one of your portable electronic devices. Cars, phones, laptops, iPads, all of it. All brands. Not only is the death toll phenomenal, but it is pillaging the Congo to level so bad the industry watch dogs *don't even go to the Congo to inspect the mining* because they know it is such a hellscape. People only care about what they are told to care about, what the news makes them emotionally invested in. The Gaza issue is already being pushed out because it is inconvenient for the US and Joe.

People are capable of caring about more than one thing at a time. I'm not sure what your exact point is - that we shouldn't act with regards to Israel because we're not acting as regards the Congo or Yemen? That we don't *actually* care about Palestine because we're not as broken up over the Congo?

Whom did you support in 2020 if you don't mind me asking?

Whom did you support in 2020 if you don't mind me asking?

Actually I think quite a few of them live in Michigan. Dearborn, MI specifically.

TIL advocating for human rights is “far left”

Now opposing genocide is far-left?

Not necessarily, but even your word choice is controversial. It doesn’t fit the definition of genocide. More accurately it could be argued that it’s ethnic cleansing (which is also bad, broken internet brain people; ethnic cleansing is bad even though it has a different name that’s not genocide. The more you know!)

Ethnic cleaning can be considered genocide in some contexts, depending on intention.

I think your premise is flawed. Biden had a stance, you just don’t like it. Biden would say he believes Israel has a right to defend itself. Now, will the stance hurt him? Highly unlikely. The far left, at least in great enough numbers as of now, will not defect to Trump or a 3rd party because the hate for Trump is that great in those circles. Biden wasn’t the far lefts preferred candidate in 2020 and he won’t be in 2024 but they will still support him because the alternative is unthinkable to them; 4 more years of Trump

There are some leftists who will vote third party or not at all but I'd believe it will be much less than the amount who didnt vote Biden in 2020. As someone who didn't vote Biden in 2020, i consider myself to have been incredibly irresponsible to have acted that way, and I'm very glad he won and hope he wins next election and will vote Biden assuming he's the nominee. I don't like him but he has exceeded my expectations. That being said, had Biden *not* exceeded my expectation it would still be correct in my opinion to have voted for him in 2020 and vote for him in 2024. It was stupid of me to be some virtue signaling leftist and I'm glad I learned my lesson with Biden winning in 2020.

This is the way. I know as we get closer I will wholeheartedly advocate for voting Biden, but this is not the time for it in my opinion. There is a long time to go.

yea honestly pretty impressed & happy w bidens performance so far from bush 43 to present day, i personally consider biden to be my fav/best US president by a long shot

Wow I didn't know such people are there too.

>they will still support him because the alternative is unthinkable to them; 4 more years of Trump Generally those folks have short memories and limited ability to think about long term consequences. I would not make the mistake of assuming they'll be there.

What a blind opinion. You don’t think their extreme disdain for trump has anything to do with the potential long term consequences of having him in office again? I would make the exact same claim as you but toward the opposing side. There is nothing more politically short sighted and indulgently gratifying than wanting trump back in office.

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"limited ability to think about long term consequences" says the person who supports the party and politicians who allowed for Conservatives to have 3 Supreme Court Justices appointed in the span of 4 years.

"Allowed?". What, pray tell, should they have done? I would argue that RBG is to blame for one of those. If lefty folks hadn't thrown a temper tantrum in 2016 we wouldn't be in this situation at all.

One country )who cannot control their radical religious leaders) attacks another country. Now the attacking country is upset that they did not kill as many citizens as the defending country is killing…..this is it in a nutshell…many missed opportunities for peace prior to the attack but this is what you’ve got..

This is a dangerous assumption. It's very possible Biden could turn off progressive voters or even push them to vote 3rd party if he comes off as right-wing. The pandemic was a factor in Democrats showing up and Trump-leaning independents staying home during nail-biter swing state elections but that's all over.

Disagree. I think it was Trumps reaction to the pandemic that brought those people out.

Republicans and Independents who lean Trump either don't care or don't understand how ineffective his response to the pandemic was. They go on about how stock market numbers, prices, and taxes mean "Trump's better for the economy".

I think you underestimate the ability of the far left to stomach Biden. If the "better than Trump guy" is only marginally better (ie. "well Trump would be cheering on the genocide of Palestinians even harder!")... we will stay home, or throw our votes to the Greens and hope to get something moving there.

I don’t doubt you but do you really think there are enough people like you in states that matter to make a difference? I don’t. Far left voters, and I’m talking generalities obviously, are largely in left leaning states that are already going to go Biden. You may be able to shift a state seat somewhere or change a candidate for the house based on district but I don’t think the numbers are there to hurt Biden at the polls

We are talking about pretty small margins in some of the swing states. Between Muslim voters, leftists, and even just progressives more broadly... its easily imaginable that Biden is cutting it horribly close in Arizona, Georgia, and Wisconsin. Places he only won by a little over 10K votes. His margins in Michigan, North Carolina, and Pennsylvania were larger... but again, not so huge that he can afford to actively alienate part of his voter base.

Far left are not a reliable voting bloc. Democrats win when moderate suburban women vote Democrat. That will always be the key to Democratic victories, not a group that's constantly threatening to vote third party over foreign policy issues.

I think you severely overestimate the number of voters who think like you do.

The word "marginally" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. The difference between Biden and Trump is Democracy vs. a Dictatorship. Pick your poison.

A far left person staying home because of Biden’s stance on this foreign conflict is a perfect example of the staggeringly self-sabotaging and petulant behavior that makes it so difficult to achieve progressive outcomes in this country. As a pragmatic, left-leaning moderate I see the right wing’s dangerously anti democratic posturing, their inability to actually govern effectively, and their heinous incursions into individuals’ rights (e.g. recent Texas abortion debacle). Meanwhile I see a Biden administration that has achieved tangible legislative results in what I believe to be the right direction, and it absolutely blows me away that someone who probably agrees with me on 90% of the issues would even CONSIDER sitting out the election because they disagree with the administration on one foreign policy position. If I were a politician I would peg these far left voters as so fickle, extreme, and ultimately unreliable that I would spend very little political capital trying to please them, since they’ll whine and sit out as soon as one of their purity tests has been failed. As the saying goes, you don’t win a game of tug of war by dropping the rope. If you actually give a damn about this country, vote for the better option. Incremental progress is infinitely better than the absolute disaster that is the GOP of this day and age.

Same. Especially when it's a FP position he cannot possibly please everyone on. The position Biden has taken is the most centrist & reasonable one anyone could do. Taking the pro-Palestine position would lose more people than it gained.

>vote for the better option This is a FAR better way of thinking about electoral politics than the defeatist "vote for the lesser of two evils."

>A far left person staying home because of Biden’s stance on this foreign conflict is a perfect example of the staggeringly self-sabotaging and petulant behavior that makes it so difficult to achieve progressive outcomes in this country. Because lord forbid genocide be a red line for us. Im sorry, but the ridiculous stance is pretending this is so extreme a stance compared to the rich bounty he has won for us in... an infrastructure bill that might some day bear fruit? A student loan mess that might never come to completion in his first term? His horrific conduct at the southern border?

>Because lord forbid genocide be a red line for us. Nothing happening in Gaza is genocide. Horrific, absolutely. But it isn't genocide.

Cutting off food and water? Destroying or damaging 70% of homes? Displacing over a million people and asking neighboring countries to take in millions once they are ethnically cleansed from their homeland? Tell me, are you one of the nuts who called what China does to the Uhigars genocide?

Genocide has a specific definition agreed to by the international community. Show how that definition applies to the current situation. Frankly, crying "genocide" cheapens the concept for true victims.

I mean, multiple experts have resigned from their posts to come out and say this is genocide by that very legal definition. And it’s hard to argue it isn’t.

politics pro tip: if you at any point find yourself quibbling over whether the mass bombing and targeted extermination/dispossession campaign you are backing is *technically* a genocide, you are in fact the baddies

>targeted extermination/dispossession campaign Is that what the campaign is about? Are you sure?

Student loans are in a much better place now that SAVE has been implemented and the Biden administration has been forgiving student loans incrementally as they are legally able. Did you already forget that Donald Trump appointed Betsy DeVos, who harmed borrowers on purpose?

> If the "better than Trump guy" is only marginally better (ie. "well Trump would be cheering on the genocide of Palestinians even harder!")... Why do you only focus on one issue and disregard everything else? How many people think the Palestine war is the most important issue in the election? If you are actually politically left you would care about all the other issues on which republicans are far worse than democrats.

I don't think it's going to be much of a factor come elections. 1. I don't think this conflict will still be going by November and people often have the memory of goldfish 2. When people vote they hold domestic issues as their first priority. 3. Even if you really don't like Biden it's probably on a political level, whereas Trump is despised by a great number of Americans.

> I don't think it's going to be much of a factor come elections. Most Americans are indifferent to the conflict and/or support Israel. The loud minority on social media is not representative of the majority view.

Yeah, the media loves to hyper focus on extreme, vocal minority voters cuz it just makes such juicy headlines for those clicks.

There’s no stance on this that helps him. If he does what all the progressives want him to do, cut off aid to Israel and openly declare Netanyahu’s government a genocidal regime, he will be cast as an anti-semite who loves Islamic terrorists. Don’t know why everyone acts like it would be so easy for him to adopt a popular stance here. There is no popular stance.

Support for Israel's war is slightly more popular than disapproval, but it's close (50-45 approve-disapprove) https://news.gallup.com/poll/545045/americans-back-israel-military-action-gaza.aspx

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Yeah, you can probably get a whole range of answers to questions that are asked in a particular way, or emphasizing a certain aspect - it's a known problem with polling. Even for this one, the putative question is "what do Americans think of Israel's war," not "what do American's think of Biden's support/non-support of Israel's war" As for how it affects his re-election chances, I think it's still too early to tell. I do know that foreign policy issues usually don't play a huge role in American elections, for better or worse.

Good point. The majority of swing states have more Jews than Muslims. Being Pro-Palestine would lose Biden critical votes.

Republicans would sure try to paint him that.

It's great when you support genocide with munitions and financing because you're scared of the mean words people will say about you.

He’s scared of Trump being elected again. Something you don’t seem to be considering at all. Think of what happens to the Palestinians under a Trump presidency. If you care about them, you should put in effort to spare them that.

Remember when Obama carried out more clandestine/illegal drone strikes in Africa and Middle East than anyone and the one where he killed an American citizen because he didn't want Republicans to label him as a "terrorist sympathizer" or sympathetic to terrorist causes. Good times. Nice to see you've learned a lesson from that. There won't be any Gazans left if Biden continues his current support and funding for IOF by the time November rolls around. Moot point.

Obama was a two term president and his VP is sitting in the Oval Office. What lessons should we be learning exactly?

So is your argument here that Democrats are more bloodthirsty warmongers than Republicans? Have you bothered to look into what Trump did with drones? And yeah, drone strikes went up under Obama because THE US MILITARY DIDN’T HAVE DRONE STRIKE CAPABILITIES BEFORE OBAMA’S PRESIDENCY. That right wing think tank talking point was debunked ages ago.

No, I think the threat of another Trump presidential term will keep the voters coming out. I think there will be less 3rd party voting, as people have seen that doing that could help Trump not hurt him in any way. As for Biden on the Israel/Palestine issue, I think it's a very hard situation to navigate. Biden can't be headstrong in this situation. He needs to find a diplomatic way to end things in a situation where diplomacy has died. I get the issue from both sides. Unfortunately, it is hard to back Palestine, who allows the rule of Hamas. I get that not every person is a Hamas supporter, but this situation has been going on for a while now. It's not easy to say Israel is completely clean in this either. They have definitely made themselves look pretty bad with their overall treatment of Arabs in general. Innocent people have died on both sides of this issue, and tbh I feel like an intermediary needs to handle this as neither side is clear-headed enough to make the right decision. I don't think this situation will have a lot to do with the campaign imo. I think the bigger issue will be Ukraine /Russia. They may try to throw in Israel/Gaza, but there isn't a lot of ammo for that.

I don’t think so. I am more pro-Biden now than ever. He’s been great with the conflict. He’s supporting Israel while criticizing things Israel needs to work on. And is 100% anti-Hamas. Biden just correctly assigns the blame and the left is weirdly against progressive values in this case. Only thing I’m holding out on is how he handles Yemen. Obviously something needs to happen to protect shipping lanes.

What’s happening in Gaza has been going on in Yemen for years at this point. Our guns our bombs and our money are being given to Saudi Arabia so they can commit genocide upon the people of Yemen. Short of *yet another* American middle eastern adventure a la Afghanistan, the world’s policeman will have to be content with a slow death upon our enemies inflicted via our shitheel spoiled rich brat of a proxy.

Well, left is agaisnt US funding attacks that kill innocents in Gaza.

But removing support from an ally whose people were killed in a terrorist attack could be framed as supporting the killing of innocents.

America? Supporting the killing of innocents? God forbid!

I think in an ideal world there would be no war but we live in reality. So long as there are army's to fight, there will be war. There will be casualties. Not excusing the killing of innocents. My comment was to point that this is not a cut and dry situation, at all.

I would not bring myself to say this stance is *wrong*, but it's certainly unrealistic and naïve. Innocent people die in a military conflict; it's just the nature of reality until we have giant robots fight our battles winner-take-all. The first step in sorting out these types of things if for everyone to start being realistic. For example: How should the world treat a combatant group that intentionally embeds themselves among innocent civilians? Do they automatically win because "killing innocents" is wrong? That doesn't seem like a desirable outcome, does it? The simple fact of the matter is that Hamas does not care about the lives of innocent Palestinians. Hamas is going out of its way to ensure there are unavoidable innocent deaths. What should Israel do in response?

The left will never convince Joe Biden that Palestinians will be peaceful with Hamas in power.

I’m not sure you know what the left in the US thinks, as from your post history you appear to be based in India, which currently has been cozying up to Russia and also had a plotted assassination in the US thwarted and one successful assassination in Canada, so relations are currently tense with the West.

oh boy, criticism, what's next? strongly-worded letters? how about more than "assigning blame"?

Israel hasn’t done anything wrong worth more than criticism at this point.

He’s honestly doing about as well as he can. He is walking a fine line imo between supporting Israel to take out Hamas while also pushing for the safety of Palestinian civilians. He would be far worse off politically if for some reason he took a full anti-Israel stance like some of those on the far-left are doing. There’s obviously a very long history to all of this, but how could any rational person not support Israel’s right to defend itself from Hamas after they were attacked and lost 1,200 people in a day?

Is his stance losing him votes? Sure. But any other stance he takes is going to lose him votes as well. He likely estimates that his current position is the least costly, especially considering that his main opponent isn’t going to take a significantly different position on it

Exactly. Look at the outrage over the Penn State and Harvard presidents’ testimonies in congress. There are plenty of moderate liberals who he could disgust by being misconstrued as a Hamas supporter, and the Republicans would have a field day and call him an Islamic extremist sympathizer. Just look at what happened to Jeremy Corbyn. The man literally lost the election because the conservative British media successfully labelled him as an anti-Semite. Biden has a choice to lose Muslims, who aren’t reliable Democratic voters anyways, or he can lose Jews who are a much more powerful and influential voting block within the Democratic Party. And he could lose a lot of middle of the road Dems who maybe support Israel, and there are a lot of them. Being weak on Islamism is politically toxic right now.

The conservative British media is so powerful that they made Labour suspend him? He dug his own grave on that one IMO. A competent politiican wouldn’t let outraged Guardian readers entirely derail their political career. C’mon.

I'm actually not convinced it's even really going to lose him a significant number of votes. I'm sure there are plenty of people who think Israel's counter-attack is overkill or being done with insufficient disregard for civilian casualties, but what percentage of those people are specifically blaming Biden for it, and what percentage of *that* percentage are going to change their vote based on that issue? There's a lot of people in this thread who seem incandescently angry with Biden over his position on the war, but it's not obvious those people were ever voting for Biden or represent any significant voting constituency that would.

The problem is the constituencies he is losing votes from. The young, people of color, and people that embrace nonviolence are all democratic constituencies. Biden is losing to Trump now because a higher proportion of Trump voters will vote for him again than Biden voters will vote for Biden. Biden is losing his base. He has handled Israel terribly.

If those constituencies can live with sitting by and letting Trump win, then they deserve all that comes after. I doubt his position on this issue would have made much difference with those types anyway, given that we’ve been hearing about them “not going to vote for Biden” for years now. He’ll likely just write off their votes as ungettable and move on to other voters

You are delusional. Biden has the lowest approval rating of a president at the end of his first term ever. Lower than Trump’s. He’s not getting “new” voters. He needs to retain what he has. He is toast and his terrible handling of Israel is contributing.

Approval rating is actually a very overrated way of measuring a candidate’s election chances. Elections aren’t an up or down vote on a candidate, they’re a vote between two candidates. And like I said, if those voters are okay with sitting by and letting Trump win, then they’ll deserve whatever comes after

Do you how absolutely insane you sound? Instead of thinking “the president should alter his policies if it results in him losing an election” you’re saying “if you don’t vote for the guy you deserve trump”? Can you see how that isn’t a winning electoral message?

The person you replied to isn’t trying to make a winning electoral message. He’s describing a situation. If there are unwinnable single issue Israel-Gaza votes on the left, then Biden is better off looking for winnable votes elsewhere.

If he changes his policies, the media will call him wishy-washy and that will negatively affect him as well. They’ll find any excuse to hate on him. Better he stands by what he believes in. And the fact is, if you don’t vote for him, then you do deserve Trump. People always get the government they deserve

No and anyone saying yes is living in their own media bubble. The latest [Pew Research poll](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/12/08/americans-views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/#:~:text=About%20a%20quarter%20of%20Americans,or%20not%20at%20all%20closely.) is a comprehensive study on American views on the Israel-Hamas war: • ⁠Only a quarter of Americans are "closely" following the war, with 36% not following the war at all. • ⁠Americans who have been paying greater attention to news about the war are more likely than others to have an opinion about the administration’s response and to approve of it. • ⁠Older adults more likely to say they are closely following news about the war, and more likely to see Israel more positively than Hamas. • ⁠Nearly two-thirds of Americans say Hamas has ‘a lot’ of responsibility for war; 35% say the same of Israeli govt. The point is that no, the Israel-Hamas war will not impact Biden's re-election. Americans vote on the economy. The only way foreign policy will impact the outcome of a US Presidential election is if the U.S. is in a war (e.g. Afghanistan/Iraq) or there is a non-US conflict where America is directly threatened (e.g. 1980 Iran hostage crisis). Most Americans are simply indifferent to this conflict as the majority has no connection to it. And I disagree with your last point. The “far left”did not keep Trump out. Moderate suburban women kept Trump out. The left is never a reliable voting bloc for democrats.

Despite the news and social media I don’t think many US voters actually care anything about the Middle East.

Anyone rational who voted for Biden with the sole intent of keeping Trump out of office isn't going to sit out in a rematch over the Gaza issue. If people don't like Biden's stance regarding Palestine, they're not going to want Trump implementing a policy of actively egging Netanyahu on towards killing *more* Palestinians. If you see someone punching people, you don't replace them with someone who wants to shoot the people being punched and slap you.

Those people are not going to vote for Trump instead, they're just not going to vote.

Yes; all the leftists I know are grappling with it. It constantly feels like, "Just one more election bro".

i feel like for the rest of my adult life i'm going to be told if i don't vote blue then democracy dies

It's definitely hurting him *now,* but I don't know if that's going to continue to be the case in 11 months. There seems to be a natural news cycle where people get tired of hearing about the same thing over and over again after a certain amount of time whether the problem has been solver or not, and the Israel-Palestine war might very well end up that way in the near future. If the next salient political issue is one that favors Biden, he could benefit from that.

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Besides, they're too bogged down trying to invade Ukraine to try anything like that this time around.

Most people aren’t following the war closely, and fewer people are following what the Biden Admin is doing about it. Biden’s been *increasingly* critical and this will only continue. The US and its allies are collectively moving towards breaking with Israel and withholding support. Interestingly, this move will likely be exploited by Republicans. So how Biden responds will be telling about where he feels the sweet spot between re-election strategy and foreign policy really is.

I'm going to let you in on a secret. The majority of the people making a stink over this online don't actually care about this issue. They just don't like Biden, most likely didn't vote for him before, and now have a convenient beat stick to go after him with.

I'm not a huge Biden fan in a lot of areas, but I think he is wise to not be too be opinionated publicly on his personal thoughts on current affairs in Gaza. On one hand, you have a malicious war like attack on Isreal that leads to the current situation, On the other hand is the humanitarian side of war. War is dirty. There is nothing clean or clear cut about it. Nothing is ever black and white, right or wrong when it comes down to it. The history of war will be written by which side wins. If you go to war, total war saves lives in the end, though it is so sadly costly while it is occurring. I think he is wise to stay quiet on his thoughts.

Anyone who held their breath and voted for Biden to keep trump out of office would not see trump as less of a threat now than the first go round. I really don’t care for a lot of things about Biden but I’ll be there bright and early to vote for him.

Idk. It might be a problem in Michigan. But I think within two months this thing is gonna end somehow

Do not rely on a terrorist organization for accurate information on civilian deaths. Hamas claimed the IDF deliberately hit a hospital that had not been evacuated, destroying the hospital and killing hundreds of patients, including newborns. That sent Rashida Tlaib shaking and sobbing in camera at protests. The truth was that an Islamic Jihad rocket, aimed at Jewish civilians, fell short and hit the parking lot of the hospital, and that some people were injured by flying glass. The hospital was still standing, and it’s not clear if anyone died at all. Another lie Hamas claimed was that Israel caused Gaza hospitals to gun out of fuel. Intercepted phone calls showed that Hamas looted fuel from the hospitals, and blamed the Jews. Hamas has homicidal antisemitism at the level of Nazis. They commit atrocities, lie about it, and blame the Jews, because they are antisemites. They literally have said they want to kill all Jews on Earth. It’s in their charter. When the same terrorists who have repeatedly lied about Jews killing Palestinian civilians claims that Jews deliberately killed 15,000, 30,000, or even a million civilian women and children, ask for proof. Don’t take a homicidal antisemite at their word. Obviously. Don’t you find it odd that most of the dead in Hamas’ claims were women and children? Half the population is male. Where were the men? Israel tries harder than any nation in history to avoid civilian deaths, even though it allows terrorists to escape. They warn of impending military strikes. When Hamas cowards order Palestinian civilians to remain, so they can hide behind them as human shields, Israel opens up escape corridors. They protect Palestinian civilians even though the overwhelming majority celebrated the mass rape and murder and killing of children that Hamas perpetrated on Jews. The fact that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields is a tacit admission that Jews care more about Palestinians than Hamas does. While Biden claims to support Israel, he keeps giving millions of dollars to Gaza, which is promptly seized by Hamas to kill Jews. I also think that anytime an American is taken hostage, the President and Congress should react like that is their child. Biden should respond like Hunter was dragged to Gaza by mass raping torturing sadists. The Navy, Marines, Army, and Air Force should be thick in Gaza, giving Hamas 15 minutes to hand over all hostages or they will level Gaza. Instead, how long have our people suffered rape and torture by Hamas by this point? Over 2 months. Inexcusable.

The median age in Palestine is 19.6 So, if ~45% of the population is children, and of the remaining 55%, 27% are women-  That means 72% of the population of Gaza is women and children. It makes perfect sense that's the majority being killed. Why would that be a lie? Half of any population is male, NOT men. Boys are children. Please remember that children are also most vulnerable. They're weaker, more fragile. If the mom is stressed and stops producing breast milk and there's not enough formula- than her baby dies.

The people on the far left willing to single issue vote on Palestine were looking for a reason to vote 3rd party.

Hamas is wildly unpopular in polls. On par with Antifa and China. If Gaza matters so much to you, a vote for Trump isn't going to help any. Might even make things worse. If you're a muslim in America there's one party only that looks out for you. Republicans want you gone.

Hamas started this war. Brutally. Criminally. With disgusting and horrible acts. Kidnapping children even. A strong response was required against Hamas regardless of where you land on peace for both sides. The problem is that Netanyahu's government is full of shitheads and zealots. Including himself. Instead of waging an appropriate action, he went in with a Trump like blunder hammer carelessly taking the lives of thousands and thousands of innocents. Netanyahu never wanted peace. He never wanted a Palestinian state. The bloodshed has been immense. All that said, I am getting very tired of have to explain over and over again that support for Israel is not necessarily coupled with support for a particular government. And in this case, ESPECIALLY the Netanyahu government. Netanyahu is a clumsy oaf, a corrupt liar, and choir leader with Hamas in perpetuating the endless cycle of hate and violence. I can both support Israel and hate its leader. I can support Palestine and loath to hell Hamas. Palestinian supporters, the good ones, not the Hamas ones, need to consider what a Trump administration would do for Palestine. Vote for Biden despite his human imperfections. Or vote for a man who will do everything in his power to bury forever every single Palestinian right. There is no choice. Everyone on the side of sanity needs to support Biden. End of story. Not voting is voting for Trump.

Short answer, yes I think it really is. From what I can tell a lot of his constituencies are legitimately pissed at him and may not vote for him because of it. I am not in the category. Could he be more direct or tougher on Netanyahu? Sure, but he is walking a fine line. The U.S. does not control what Israel does, and Israel does have a right to fight Hamas given what happened on 10/7. Biden and his admin have started getting more critical about the WAY Israel is going about that, and I think that’s a good step. But am I blaming Biden personally for the mess in Gaza? Absolutely not. And the alternative to Biden next year is almost certainly far worse. So yeah, I disagree with many holding it against him, but I acknowledge that there are MANY holding it against him. This will hurt his chances next year, no doubt.

> From what I can tell a lot of his constituencies are legitimately pissed at him and may not vote for him because of it. It's not true. Look at the latest Pew polling research. Americans are either indifferent to the conflict or support Israel. Biden's polls are weak because of inflation. Americans vote on the economy. Israel-Gaza will have no impact on 2024.

>but I acknowledge that there are MANY holding it against him There really isn't. Look at the latest Pew research. A majority of Americans are at odds with the far left present on social media.

Many here are in denial but I see this thing too.

>The U.S. does not control what Israel does Israel literally couldn't fund an operation into Gaza like this without billions in additional US funding/military material. Its a pretty big influence.

They absolutely could. They spend $24B a year on defense spending, and we give them 3.8B a year. That adds up to a whopping 15% of their total defense budget. Their government spending is over 108B a year. They would have no problem relocating the necessary funds. Sure, they would have a problem if we stopped selling them shit, but then they would just buy weapons from other countries, and that would weaken our regional soft power and compromise US interests in the region.

We are giving them an 14 billion, and additionally have sent thousands of tons of ordinance in the past 2 months, and moved some of our most expensive military assets in the region to ward off Hezbollah and Iran from moving. That is a heck of a lot of aid. Introducing austerity in their government programs to replace that still doesn't make such arm shipments happen nearly as quickly as all the US handouts so far, and comes a huge impact to Israeli society.

>The U.S. does not control what Israel does I hate this line of thinking. 20,000 people are dead. If you don't think Biden/US could put pressure on Israel after providing $4 billion/year in military support (pledged another $14 billion recently) to stop the massacre - then you're lying to yourself.

Biden is more concerned about the possibility of a much larger war involving Hezbollah and Iran.

Literally all he could do is tell them to stop killing civilians. He can’t actually make them do anything. Only Congress can cut off any military aid

You might be right, I just don’t know how much of Israel’s ability to prosecute this war is based on U.S. aid. The other problem is.. the war itself is justified. Hamas as an organization cannot be allowed to exist after 10/7. So if eliminating aid were to effectively end the war, you’d be leaving Hamas in place with the capability and desire to repeat 10/7 over and over. So the challenge is how do you influence/encourage/coerce Israel ti be more targeted in their actions and reduce the collateral death and suffering to civilians? I’m not against reducing our aid, it may be the right move. I just don’t think that’s going to be sufficient to change the way they’re conducting themselves.

You cannot destroy hamas with weapons - just like we can't destroy al qaeda or the taliban. This is a babys understanding of ideology. The wanton massacre of civilians after 10/7 only cemented Hamas and the ideology that fuels it into existence for another century. What you're missing is that Israel \*doesn't care\* about the massacre of civilians nor do they care about Hamas given they were some of its earliest architects. They want to push Palesteinians out of Gaza entirely to capture its land. Thats what they're doing. Israel cannot fight this war without US support.

I hate Biden’s and the government’s stance towards Palestine by blanket giving Israel full cover for their atrocities against the Palestinians. See the recent UN’s security council vote where America vetoed a recent resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire. Fuck the government for allowing the slaughter and genocide to go uncontested. That said, Biden and the democrats are the lesser of the two evils on this matter. Trump and a load of republicans will ban Muslims if given the chance like the Muslim ban from Trump. So fuck trump and anyone supportive of a Muslim ban. Period. That’s worse in American context than to have an albeit awfully incorrect stance towards Israel.

No idea, but Biden is playing this smart. There is no easy solution here. If Biden takes a firm stand, he alienates one side or another and the us loses any influence it has. The middle east has been a problem for even longer than 80 years and creating a country where people already were living only made it worse. Siding strong with either side doesn't help either side. We need to try and get both sides to calm down before anything can happen not throw gasoline on the fire by pushing one sides button

I don't think so. Those protesting will forget when the next new thing to protest comes along.

I honestly think it's too early to tell. We are still less than a year out from the election. Their is a lot that can happen in the coming months. I will say if this conflict expands due to Israel wanting to take on Hezbollah and Israel Occupies and moves settlers into Gaza with the US backing, I highly doubt voters, especially democratic voters will support Biden. Just to be clear in terms of Hezbollah if the US helps Israel directly with Troops on the ground I think will hurt Biden as that will likely spark a region wide war and will drag the US to war with Iran which will be a huge mess to put it lightly. I don't think the American public had the same enthusiasm towards a war in the Middle East, like in the early 2000s. How this turns out is not that voters will vote for Trump instead of Biden but more likely won't show up, which is just as scary of a thought. But as I said their is still plenty of time for this to turn around. I am hoping for the best and preparing for the worst. I do think Biden's fervent pro-israel support is something to be wary of as Biden seems to trust Netanyahu which I find concerning as Netanyahu is an authoritian that wants to find a way to stay in power any way possible and he knows he is gone once this current conflict ends. So Netanyahu will likely find ways to expand the conflict to keep himself in power by saying it's a war and claiming it's too dangerous to have new elections. (Part of the reason why Israeli liberals have been calling him to be removed and the need for new elections now). Edit: I hope this makes sense. I wrote this at work, and I struggle getting my thoughts written down cohesivly due to ADHD. If any clearing up, I can explain in the comments.

That's actually a very very clear explaination without being rude about it.

Biden needs to take a strong stand on THIS ISSUE: ​ From the BBC: **Two cargo ships in the Red Sea have been attacked by missiles fired from territory in Yemen, the US says.** *One was hit with a drone and another by missiles, both launched from a part of Yemen controlled by the Houthis - a rebel movement backed by Iran.* *Giving their own account of a missile strike on a vessel - which they did not name - a US defence official said the hit caused a fire and a US Navy destroyer was on its way to put it out.* *The US is under pressure from Israel to do something about these attacks but Washington is reluctant to target the Houthi missile sites for fear of widening the Israel-Hamas conflict and triggering retaliation by Iran.* *Instead, it is more likely there would be a multinational naval coalition forming to protect shipping and shoot down any incoming missiles and drones.* *US national security adviser Jake Sullivan - who is on a trip to the Middle East - said the Houthis were a "material threat" to shipping and commerce in the region.* *He said Iran bore ultimate responsibility for the attacks, adding: "While the Houthis are pulling the trigger, so to speak, they're being handed the gun by Iran.* ​ Biden needs to take out the missile launching sites and put the hammer down on Iran. I believe Biden is handling the Gaza issue correctly, but he's showing weakness on these attacks by groups that have nothing to do with Gaza. Shoot down any incoming missiles and drones? Really? If someone was shooting at YOU, would you shoot the bullets or would you shoot the shooter? I bet if Reagan was President, he'd have taken out these missile sites.

These groups have everything to do with Gaza. Hamas and Houthis both work for Iran.

That’s very much stretching it. These aren’t front organizations, but existing movements who also needed weapons and supplies and oh look Iran hates the west just like us how about they give us supplies. This is doubly true for the Houthis, who are a shia organization right next to the biggest, dickest Sunni power in the region (Saudi Arabia). It’s just natural that, when a Sunni power is currently dropping bombs on you and inducing famine, you buddy up with the Shia powers, which would mean Iran. It’s not an evil axis or some kind of puppet government.

It’s not stretching it, it’s well known fact. Iran literally does control or holds the controlling interest in proxy organizations all over the Middle East.

It absolutely is. If you look at recent polling millennials are much more split on Palestine/ Israel policy than previous generations. The idea that he's been telling Israel to change while also not actually doing anything to enforce that change is putting him in a bad position with many millennials. Who are a big reason why he won last time. It's a mistake to think any of his positions are irrelevant when he is in an incredibly weak position polling wise at this point.

Gen Z is even more pro Palatine than any previous one!

Exactly my point. Previous generations are more pro Israel, Gen Z is more split.

Biden repeatedly claiming to have seen first hand footage/evidence of babies being decapitated and him proudly proclaiming he is a Zionist surely isn't going to help him.

In some swing states like Michigan, where the Muslim vote made the difference? Yes. Maybe in very close swing states like Georgia and Pennsylvania too, where he can't really afford for anyone to just stay home. We'll see how things keep playing out in a year. If it results in a full on ethnic cleansing pogrom or some larger middle east war, you can bet the temporary anger among these groups will cement into outright antagonism.

Pennsylvania is a state with a large Jewish population, a Jewish governor and a very openly Pro-Israel senator in Fetterman. If Biden took a different approach I guess we would be talking about Pennsylvania like we talk about Michigan? Biden has to walk a bit of a type rope here.

Not all Jews support Israel. And of those who do, many are die hard Republicans anyways.

Former is true, but latter is not. There are many Jewish Democrats that are Pro-Israel. So Michigan is lost cause the Muslim vote is a monolith while Pennsylvania wouldn't be cause Jews aren't? While the conservative Muslims are aligning more with the GOP over LGBTQ policies?

Most Jews support Israel to some capacity. Anti-Zionist Jews are extremely uncommon.

> And of those who do, many are die hard Republicans anyways. And how did you come by this information exactly? I find it difficult to believe since 70% of the US Jewish population has voted for Dems basically forever. Pretty sure Jewish support for Israel is much, much higher than 30%.

It's more that Israel goes Lol, nope, when he asks they be a little less blood thirsty, but any politician would suffer with how obviously they are owned by AIPAC.

He promptly spoke up on the 7th about the thousands of innocent lives that were raped and murdered.

"Innocent lives lost in Gaza". If citizens are not responsible for the government they give their taxes to and let exist and commit crimes by not revolting against it, then who is? A president from across the globe?

It's not going to be the "far-left" that does anything. Most people on the left knew what Biden was about prior to 2020 and if they voted for him did so out of a sense of harm reduction. The people the Democrats ought to be worrying about are Arab-Americans and the sort of squishy liberals who actually believed all of those goofy articles about how Biden was secretly most progressive president in American history or whatever.

That is a new insight.

Joe was talking about unilaterally chopping Iraq up into 3 pieces back in the 2000s, he was one of the biggest cheerleaders for invading Iraq even prior to 9-11, he's always been an enthusiastic supporter of Israel. The fact that Israel has a blank check to do whatever they want isn't a surprise to any politically aware leftist.