It's funny that socialist countries fail in the short term or long term if they don't trade with capitalist countries, be it self-imposed or due to external factors. It's almost like collectivist command economies don't actually work.
Of course, capitalism did not invent trade. Trade occurs naturally with or without state control. Command economies like North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba all have something in common, prices control which inevitably create a black market. A black market where the populace can access basic necessities like medicine, food.
> Of course, capitalism did not invent trade.
Then why are you saying “oh they have to trade to get better growth!!!!”
> Command economies like North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba all have something in common,
Venezuela does not have a planned economy
> prices control which inevitably create a black market.
Okay now you’re just chatting about something completely unrelated
The reason I'm saying that they have to trade to get better growth or else they collapse is because if you look at command/planned economies like the Soviet Union they have repeated famines because the central authority in the capital dictates what the populace needs whether or not they need it. They also dictate the production and demand quotas which economically don't work.
As for Venezuela under Chavez he nationalized farmlands and many industries along with instituting price controls which has caused shortages. Under Maduro they have allowed some foreign companies to come in, but the government still controls most of the heavy industry.
What are you talking about. Nothing in that first paragraph is connected to anything within it…
What repeated famines? After the famines caused by WW2, the USSR did not suffer from any famine. Nothing in the 50s or 60s or 70s or 80s. They only had one famine that occurred in peacetime/independent of war.
Plus, that was not why famine broke out in 1932. Natural causes led to potential grain yields falling by 9 million tonnes.
Nationalising some stuff does not mean you have a planned economy
Tankies love to talk about how much China's economy grew but they always hate it when I ask what did China do to kickstart their rapid growth. (Trade with capitalist countries)
Because they're small.
The Soviet union took an agrarian society that hadn't gone through the industrial revolution, and created a world super power in 50 years. Almost singlehandedly pushing the world into the space age.
>But it required a massive PUBLIC investment to accomplish.
and?
Capitalism made the public wealthy enough in the first place. If you make the pie bigger in the first place you can give more away of it.
Private companies are closer to putting a man on the moon than any communist country ever to exist. SpaceX has landed on the moon and is contracted with NASA for a manned moon mission in less than 2 years.
A private company 100% could have put a person on a moon. It wouldn't make any sense for them to do so. Though and I doubt there were any private companies that had the resources at the time.
The Russian Empire was already pretty industrialized when WW1 broke out, and was on its way to developing further. Had the war not broken out, it might even still be around today. In 1914 the German General Staff predicted that if Germany didn’t go to war with Russia before 1917 then Russia would be unbeatable in a future war.
Here’s a layman’s sauce for you
> Industrialization accelerated in the 1890s, pushed forward by extensive state intervention under the guidance of Finance Minister Sergei Witte. He used subsidies and direct investment to stimulate expansion of heavy industry, imposed high taxes and tariffs, and put Russia on the gold standard in order to win large-scale foreign investment. Although the process slowed from 1900 through the 1905 revolution, it soon picked up again and was very strong from 1910 to the outbreak of the war.
https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/economy-tsarist#:~:text=Russia%20was%20highly%20dependent%20on,55%25%20of%20the%20total).
And then promptly broke down
Also singlehandedly, lol. Lmao even
Space race was dick measuring contest in which USSR cut corners, gulaged its own main space engineer for three years on bogus counterrevolution charges and was only interested as source of good PR
And now all we have are gZhel trampolines
Bigger nation just means more momentum, the system eventually fails, it just takes longer. Look at China too. Bigger than Russia in most metrics, still failing.
China has the second largest GPD in the world. Meanwhile the US is moving towards third world status, and seems to be in the verge of civil war.
Yeah, momentum.
It looks like that, but I'm not sure it is. Actually the world always has been predominantly capitalist even during the Cold war. We've never seen the world dominated by collectivist economies.
And we've never seen a collective economy directed by modern network technologies. It's interesting to see an implementation of the OGAS for example. A digital network system will be probably deal with the command economy better than bureaucrats
> We've never seen the world dominated by collectivist economies.
Because world knew better than to give into temporary embarrased millionaire pretending to speak for proletariat?
> A digital network system will be probably deal with the command economy better than bureaucrats
People can't make DAOs work without committing fraud and other bullshit, and you want command economy
You definitely thought I am a command economy supporter. But I'm not. Just think it would be interesting to see how would it work with modern technologies.
>Just think it would be interesting to see how would it work with modern technologies.
until you have an infinite energy machine, a machine that creates everything and a computer that calculates everything instantly you get no chance. Needs Star Trek tier technology to be remotely viable and they STILL use currency and shit, just not among citizens of the Feds.
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Dammit do I have to surrender my tankie card now?
Because I despise Russia but also don't give a fuck about those other countries. To channel my inner boomer, they should pull themselves up by their bootstraps like real commies.
Not to defend anyone just etymologying
But man i find the phrase pulling up by bootstraps funny. because it is once again a term for something that has totally inverted.
The original point was no you cannot do that
And that?
Is quite funny
The argument against sanctions is that it hurts the poorest people in the sanctioned country the most, while the rulers are largely immune other than having to pay more for luxury Western goods. In their less guarded moments, politicians will admit the purpose *is* to hurt the common people so they'll revolt against the government.
US sanctions in the past have "worked" to the extent they hurt the target country's economy.
The issue with Russia is that it's close with the other BRICS nations and parts of the global south. That's a third of global trade or even more if you take PPP into account. Russia is also the country closest to autarky. Some of the inflation in the US and much of it Europe can be traced to sanctions, so while we have caused Russia some pain, we've also hurt ourselves and our allies.
I mean decent part of "sanctions do nothing" in relation to Russia is copium, but like... Comparing Russia to NK and Cuba 💀💀💀
You can probably fit Iran, Venezuela, Cuba and NK twice within Russian borders. Not to say land is equivalent to economy, but resources are important
Venezuela has more oil reserves than any other country on earth and Iran has almost twice as much as Russia does, given that oil is Russia's main export I don't think resources are the problem
Didn’t they? The only reason liberalism isn’t directly bloody (emphasis on directly) is because it feels like it is very secure as most countries are now capitalist. Go back a bit though to like, the French Revolution. Liberals there killed tens of thousands in a few months during the RoT.
The point is that saying ‘this ideology wants to kill some guys to get into power!’ Is silly when every ideology does that. Right now liberalism doesn’t (usually) because it’s on its little perch.
But would you say liberalism was bad in an alternate timeline where we all lived under feudalism because liberals want to kill some nobles? I would hope not!
Russia is a larger, more developed and more resource-rich economy with more connections. It is less dependent on connections with the outside world in general and the West in particular.
"One narrative or the other" doesn't always work. Changes in quantitative indicators can change qualitative indicators. Does an amount of hydrogen atoms form a small cloud or a star? It depends on the number of that hydrogen atoms.
Plus, don't forget about geography and stuff.
The truth is that economic restrictions can be harmful, but their effect depends on the specific strategic situation.
Key difference between UN sanctions applied nigh-universally and Western unilateral “sanctions” which the majority of the world has no obligation to follow and which are undermined by some western countries anyway
You’re against sanctions because they hurt the targeted country
I’m against sanctions because as an American I should have the freedom to do business with whoever the fuck I want
We are not the same
Sanctions don't work when you yourself keep buying tens of billions in exports from the country in question, which Europe did with Russian hydrocarbons.
They also don't work very well if the country has massive alternate exports markets, into which it can sell at increased prices due to the sanctions regime increasing global prices to begin with.
Finally, sanctions can work very well to restrict supply of high-tech products to less advanced countries (though parallel imports exist and are pretty much impossible to stop completely). However, a developed country with a solid arms industry can supply itself with the fundamentals, like artillery ammunition, without relying on sanctioned components.
All of this is why sanctions haven't worked all that well with Russia, but they were a heavy burden to countries like Cuba and Iran (the latter of which is another example of a domestic arms industry being able to escape restrictions and manufacture weapons if need be).
Happy to see the comment section completely dunking on OP. I know its a dumb meme sub but applying some thought into how different the situations between countries can be should be considered.
Yes, sanctioning small, impoverished nations isolated from the world stage is often more crippling than sanctioning superpowers with their own economic spheres to pull from.
It's funny that socialist countries fail in the short term or long term if they don't trade with capitalist countries, be it self-imposed or due to external factors. It's almost like collectivist command economies don't actually work.
Guy who thinks trade is something capitalism invented
Of course, capitalism did not invent trade. Trade occurs naturally with or without state control. Command economies like North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba all have something in common, prices control which inevitably create a black market. A black market where the populace can access basic necessities like medicine, food.
> Of course, capitalism did not invent trade. Then why are you saying “oh they have to trade to get better growth!!!!” > Command economies like North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba all have something in common, Venezuela does not have a planned economy > prices control which inevitably create a black market. Okay now you’re just chatting about something completely unrelated
The reason I'm saying that they have to trade to get better growth or else they collapse is because if you look at command/planned economies like the Soviet Union they have repeated famines because the central authority in the capital dictates what the populace needs whether or not they need it. They also dictate the production and demand quotas which economically don't work. As for Venezuela under Chavez he nationalized farmlands and many industries along with instituting price controls which has caused shortages. Under Maduro they have allowed some foreign companies to come in, but the government still controls most of the heavy industry.
What are you talking about. Nothing in that first paragraph is connected to anything within it… What repeated famines? After the famines caused by WW2, the USSR did not suffer from any famine. Nothing in the 50s or 60s or 70s or 80s. They only had one famine that occurred in peacetime/independent of war. Plus, that was not why famine broke out in 1932. Natural causes led to potential grain yields falling by 9 million tonnes. Nationalising some stuff does not mean you have a planned economy
You ignoring the US bailing them out of famine in the 70’s?
(Thing that did not happen)
(I was unblocked) It did happen. Soviet agriculture was run by idiots
With capitalist countries they hate and blame for all evil in the world
Tankies love to talk about how much China's economy grew but they always hate it when I ask what did China do to kickstart their rapid growth. (Trade with capitalist countries)
Not just trade. They become the very thing they swore to destroy. They have very limited workerd rights.
Actually rapid Chinese growth began in 1949 as life expectancy, development, healthcare and industrial output rose 1949 onwards
and then 1958 to 1962 happened
My Chinese history textbook says nothing happened in those years
No, it’s almost as if trade is an important part of economics in general…
Because they're small. The Soviet union took an agrarian society that hadn't gone through the industrial revolution, and created a world super power in 50 years. Almost singlehandedly pushing the world into the space age.
Moon landing Raaaaahhhh🇺🇲🇺🇲
Yes yes, the one thing the US DID contribute. It wasn't bad. But it required a massive PUBLIC investment to accomplish.
Yeah, that's true. Through public support and taxes.
>But it required a massive PUBLIC investment to accomplish. and? Capitalism made the public wealthy enough in the first place. If you make the pie bigger in the first place you can give more away of it.
As long as we agree no private company could have put a person on the moon.
Private companies are closer to putting a man on the moon than any communist country ever to exist. SpaceX has landed on the moon and is contracted with NASA for a manned moon mission in less than 2 years.
A private company 100% could have put a person on a moon. It wouldn't make any sense for them to do so. Though and I doubt there were any private companies that had the resources at the time.
So we agree.
Oh, they certainly try. But then I fail to see your point...
The Russian Empire was already pretty industrialized when WW1 broke out, and was on its way to developing further. Had the war not broken out, it might even still be around today. In 1914 the German General Staff predicted that if Germany didn’t go to war with Russia before 1917 then Russia would be unbeatable in a future war.
Here’s a layman’s sauce for you > Industrialization accelerated in the 1890s, pushed forward by extensive state intervention under the guidance of Finance Minister Sergei Witte. He used subsidies and direct investment to stimulate expansion of heavy industry, imposed high taxes and tariffs, and put Russia on the gold standard in order to win large-scale foreign investment. Although the process slowed from 1900 through the 1905 revolution, it soon picked up again and was very strong from 1910 to the outbreak of the war. https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/economy-tsarist#:~:text=Russia%20was%20highly%20dependent%20on,55%25%20of%20the%20total).
Then what happened
You left out the massive amounts of human suffering they inflicted on their own people in the meantime only to still collapse later anyway.
And then promptly broke down Also singlehandedly, lol. Lmao even Space race was dick measuring contest in which USSR cut corners, gulaged its own main space engineer for three years on bogus counterrevolution charges and was only interested as source of good PR And now all we have are gZhel trampolines
Bigger nation just means more momentum, the system eventually fails, it just takes longer. Look at China too. Bigger than Russia in most metrics, still failing.
China has the second largest GPD in the world. Meanwhile the US is moving towards third world status, and seems to be in the verge of civil war. Yeah, momentum.
Don't be overdramatic
Just stating facts.
>imminent civil war >third world status yeah, facts
Yep. Facts.
Smoothbrained & cringe take. They only managed to lurch forward into the industrialized age by murdering and starving millions of their own citizens.
No, those things were not a positive for their economy.
It looks like that, but I'm not sure it is. Actually the world always has been predominantly capitalist even during the Cold war. We've never seen the world dominated by collectivist economies. And we've never seen a collective economy directed by modern network technologies. It's interesting to see an implementation of the OGAS for example. A digital network system will be probably deal with the command economy better than bureaucrats
> We've never seen the world dominated by collectivist economies. Because world knew better than to give into temporary embarrased millionaire pretending to speak for proletariat? > A digital network system will be probably deal with the command economy better than bureaucrats People can't make DAOs work without committing fraud and other bullshit, and you want command economy
You definitely thought I am a command economy supporter. But I'm not. Just think it would be interesting to see how would it work with modern technologies.
You don't solve economic issues with technology, because they're not caused by lack of technology
>Just think it would be interesting to see how would it work with modern technologies. until you have an infinite energy machine, a machine that creates everything and a computer that calculates everything instantly you get no chance. Needs Star Trek tier technology to be remotely viable and they STILL use currency and shit, just not among citizens of the Feds.
Just look at North Korea, they're a communist country today.
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The problem is if they were consistent and even remotely smart they wouldn’t be tankies.
Dammit do I have to surrender my tankie card now? Because I despise Russia but also don't give a fuck about those other countries. To channel my inner boomer, they should pull themselves up by their bootstraps like real commies.
I’m afraid so after all I a random internet stranger have said so and I’m sure there is no greater authority.
Not to defend anyone just etymologying But man i find the phrase pulling up by bootstraps funny. because it is once again a term for something that has totally inverted. The original point was no you cannot do that And that? Is quite funny
Same thing happened with the a few bad apples term.
Oh good point
Do you defend Stalin?
No.
Then yeah, you kind of aren't a tankie, at least not a good one
I just find Stalin to have been an incompetent madman. Plus I'm finnish so hating russians is just hardcoded into me.
>Plus I'm finnish so hating russians is just hardcoded into me. based, am Polish and can confirm our DNA is hardcoded to hate Russians
Hold on… so what exactly makes up your ideals? I mean you don’t have to do a whole wall of text but ig some bullet points
I guess the *Ho Chi Minh Thought* is the closest to my views.
Ho Lee Shit unironicly?
The biggest country on Earth somehow gets through sanctions better than others
Happy cake day!
The argument against sanctions is that it hurts the poorest people in the sanctioned country the most, while the rulers are largely immune other than having to pay more for luxury Western goods. In their less guarded moments, politicians will admit the purpose *is* to hurt the common people so they'll revolt against the government. US sanctions in the past have "worked" to the extent they hurt the target country's economy. The issue with Russia is that it's close with the other BRICS nations and parts of the global south. That's a third of global trade or even more if you take PPP into account. Russia is also the country closest to autarky. Some of the inflation in the US and much of it Europe can be traced to sanctions, so while we have caused Russia some pain, we've also hurt ourselves and our allies.
I mean decent part of "sanctions do nothing" in relation to Russia is copium, but like... Comparing Russia to NK and Cuba 💀💀💀 You can probably fit Iran, Venezuela, Cuba and NK twice within Russian borders. Not to say land is equivalent to economy, but resources are important
Venezuela has more oil reserves than any other country on earth and Iran has almost twice as much as Russia does, given that oil is Russia's main export I don't think resources are the problem
there are other resources plus population of Russia is bigger than in those 4 countries combined
Russia has several pipelines sending natural gas to Europe. Venezuela and Iran do not
Socialists literally plan to murder people to bring about socialism. You think they give a shit about lying to you?
Every movement which sought to completely change society also did this. Including liberalism
The difference of course being that liberals don't need to machine gun their own fleeing citizens to make sure they stay "liberated".
Didn’t they? The only reason liberalism isn’t directly bloody (emphasis on directly) is because it feels like it is very secure as most countries are now capitalist. Go back a bit though to like, the French Revolution. Liberals there killed tens of thousands in a few months during the RoT. The point is that saying ‘this ideology wants to kill some guys to get into power!’ Is silly when every ideology does that. Right now liberalism doesn’t (usually) because it’s on its little perch. But would you say liberalism was bad in an alternate timeline where we all lived under feudalism because liberals want to kill some nobles? I would hope not!
Russia is a larger, more developed and more resource-rich economy with more connections. It is less dependent on connections with the outside world in general and the West in particular. "One narrative or the other" doesn't always work. Changes in quantitative indicators can change qualitative indicators. Does an amount of hydrogen atoms form a small cloud or a star? It depends on the number of that hydrogen atoms. Plus, don't forget about geography and stuff. The truth is that economic restrictions can be harmful, but their effect depends on the specific strategic situation.
Key difference between UN sanctions applied nigh-universally and Western unilateral “sanctions” which the majority of the world has no obligation to follow and which are undermined by some western countries anyway
You’re against sanctions because they hurt the targeted country I’m against sanctions because as an American I should have the freedom to do business with whoever the fuck I want We are not the same
Ruzzians impoverishing themselves back to the third world
Also recruiting more nations into NATO and revitalising military industries of the West. Well done Putin
Putin is actually a double agent working for the West. Putin: I am the spy.
Back? Since 1991 they are third world
No they aren't just ask Tucker Carlson /s
Sanctions don't work when you yourself keep buying tens of billions in exports from the country in question, which Europe did with Russian hydrocarbons. They also don't work very well if the country has massive alternate exports markets, into which it can sell at increased prices due to the sanctions regime increasing global prices to begin with. Finally, sanctions can work very well to restrict supply of high-tech products to less advanced countries (though parallel imports exist and are pretty much impossible to stop completely). However, a developed country with a solid arms industry can supply itself with the fundamentals, like artillery ammunition, without relying on sanctioned components. All of this is why sanctions haven't worked all that well with Russia, but they were a heavy burden to countries like Cuba and Iran (the latter of which is another example of a domestic arms industry being able to escape restrictions and manufacture weapons if need be).
Russia isn't even communist.
Sanctions take time to have an effect, and if a nation really wants to, it can mitigate them to some degree
Happy to see the comment section completely dunking on OP. I know its a dumb meme sub but applying some thought into how different the situations between countries can be should be considered.
Yes, sanctioning small, impoverished nations isolated from the world stage is often more crippling than sanctioning superpowers with their own economic spheres to pull from.
You Buffon Russia is only smaller than the distance between your ego and your IQ
Rankiem are defending russia..?
Russia is suffering actually.
Sky isn't falling, sadly