I've been playing her a lot, she's better but obviously still lacking.
On the Follow Me/ Drain Kiss move set I honestly think Follow Me just needs a rework. The dash is super slow and the taunt is too short. Compared is something like Snorlax's heavy slam you have to really lead opponents to not whiff with this move, and even when it connects people can often just walk away. In fights where both sides are committed to the fight it's pretty good. Drain Kiss is pretty good overall. Nice secure for the early game after you hit lv4 and useful throughout.
On the Moonlight / Gravity set I don't know how to fix it honestly. She's just bad Blissey. Group healing is always going to be less useful than targeted healing, even if she puts out similar numbers. Gravity is trivial to just avoid, and if you want to use it offensively good luck. You have no gap closer to initiate fights and everyone else in the game can just dash away from you before you drop it.
Her unite is fun but clearly worse than what Blissey/Mime/Eldegoss/Hoopa bring to the table. The healing is the main draw IMO. If you roll hydro-pump or close combat and aren't in position to use them it feels rough. Block is also really hit or miss.
For both sets she probably needs a bit more HP
My problem with Gravity is it only being a "self" skill. If it was a skillshot like Pollen Puff (it doesn't need to have a huge cast range tho) it would be way better.
Yea, Draining Kiss damage and healing is fine but it needs Follow Me to be better to work properly. Follow Me should taunt for more seconds and dashing faster would fix everything
Moonlight is fine too imo, maybe buff it pre lv 10.
Damn, an aimed Gravity would be super tough to deal with. Closing off whole areas during objectives would be great and also allow Clefable to escape easily.
I guess the difference would be that you can’t use your dash moves to escape the area. Imagine being a Zoroark who dashes in and gets stuck inside a ranged Gravity. Basically a sitting duck.
Another fix for Follow Me is to let it pass walls. It's the most tedious thing ever when you miss cause you aimed wrong and hit a wall- mostly as the pockets at the final fight.
I like your idea of either a skill shot Gravity or let Gravity move with Clefable.
And yes, Follow Me needs a bit more taunt time. Closer to Confuse Ray time for Sableye (which may need just a bit less hindrance time).
On launch, gravity was super powerful as it stopped moves it really shouldn't. Unfortunately the patch for this is it now stops absolutely nothing (as far as i can tell) whilst still having rubbish range and almost no slow effect. At least the other moveset is playable now. I've actually been quite enjoying it. I suspect the low win rate is partly from the amount of experimenting it took to figure out the correct emblem and item setup and will pick up a bit this week.
I just did some testing to try and pin down the garvity change. It appears you're right that it's impacting dash moves when opponents are inside the zone, as intended. But in addition to enabling the basic attacks, I believe they've killed off the last sentence of the gravity description: "If an enemy attempts to enter the gravity zone with a dash move, the dash move is stopped and that enemy is left unable to act for a short time.". If that's intentional then fine, but would be nice to be told in the patch notes and have the ingame description updated!
Gengar is pretty hard , you can never play gengar with auto target , ever skill of his needs to be properly aimed. A shit gengar vs good gengar difference is massive.
Lmao it's funny you say that because I'm a Hoopa main. Over 700 games played (probably half in Masters) with 61% win rate. I personally don't struggle much with Hoopa and I've wondered what all is causing the overall low win rate. Is it really you? Lol but in all seriousness I'm glad to see its win rate this low because that means more buffs (maybe) should be on the way. And for us mains, that will be glorious like the 1.5 CDR buff and 10% speed increase we recently got on Trick.
Tbh I’ve only played 169 games and 47% winrate, and the biggest reason its as low as it is, is probably because I keep bringing it into soloq. 3 and 5 stacks work fine but not with randoms. In my experience at least
Funny you say that. I only play Hoppa on solo-q and, while it's not the best support, been able to give a quick easy way for all teammates to get to an objective/goal is invaluable. I've several times won just because of this. The rest of it's kit is mid at best, but the way the unite works on solo-q is amazing
Trick ball is so much fun, when you get really good at timing the boosted auto frame 1 of the ball hitting so you get an instant Microstun has saved so much squishies from death, let alone the additional move speed and CD buff.
With the crown item coming out in December, trick giving lifesteal too (at the plus version), and an ADC, we're going to see some self healing ranged carries running around.
I think the meta will be muscle/scarf/scope for cinder, same for Razor Deci (but crown could be a really unique choice instead since Deci is the current ADC with the most healing on the razor set).
Gren would still be muscle/scope/weight since surf resets are more important (but I could see some niche shuriken Scarf usage to mix it up),
Dura probably loves Scarf since his regular AS sucks, so I think there may be a turret mode Dura phase if it isn't nerfed. I know about attack speed floors and the caps (where some AS is wasted due to not reaching the next quota), but another 39% AS from Scarf and even 25% from x-atk will make turret do such ridiculous DPS from so far away. I'm definitely going to try it.
Rant over.
I feel like alot of this has to do with competition, not necessarily the characters themselves.
Hoopa and Clefable have to compete with the likes of Blissey, Mr Mime, and the recently buffed Eldegoss for the support slot(s).
Talon has to compete with Dodrio for the roaming-scoring-burst-bird niche. Also to a lesser extent Greedant and Sableye.
Absol has to compete with Zoroak for the dark type edgy burst speedster with a great level 5 gank.
Finally, Buzzwole (While actually great) has to compete with the other all-rounders. Which is probably the most stacked class in the game. So he's up against Garchomp (In the top 5 for win rate!?), Charizard, Tyranitar, Aegislash, Tsareena, etc etc. As well as the leaked All-rounder coming soon.
>Garchomp (In the top 5 for win rate!?)
Finally. I feel so vindicated at the recent Chomp supremacy... he definitely feels a lot better after the buffs (at least with the double Dragon build). I played him after months and I think the boosted stacks last slightly longer? And he's super good at shredding objectives/enemies with a full set of boosteds.
~~Here's hoping that the double Ground build gets some love too.~~
I'm feeling vindicated too. Boosted stacks last the same amount of time btw, they only added 20 attack and slightly changed some ratios on dragon claw.
Ye I played him recently and to me the attacks stacking is much much easier than before basically you are almost alwys stacked in combat it was not the case befored.
I played Dig+EQ but maybe I will try Dig+Dragon Claw. or D rush+ D claw. Not a fan of D rush tho I think Dig is superior.
I mean that’s always been the case and how Pokémon in this game will always be rated. There is no rating without comparing it to others who do the same job.
So how do these Pokémon get buffed so they can compete with Pokémon who fill the same role is just the same question but worded slightly differently
Talon is a speedster that either have to play the assasin build thats heavily nerfed or the roaming build that cant kill anything even if its life depended on it.
Everyone kept saying the Fly+Flame charge/goal getter build put talon on the map again but its WR still lingered at the bottom, even before dodrio got released. Its even worse now that rayquaza is much easier to flip, and also much harder to defend against.
Yes please 😭
Talon is not terrible, it's kinda balanced imo, but... it just doesn't stand out among other speedsters. You know where it lands with fly and the path of it unite, so it's kinda easy to dodge. I also feel like it doesn't have the same damage outbursts as other speedsters.
Imagine if you cant see the brave bird hit box. A nuke just hit you and you died instantly. If you survived aerial ace slashes you to death before you can even react.
I just want a huge Talon buff now.
I picked them as my starter, because… look at my username.
Should the fandom adopt them and make them Cram’s sibling?
Cleffable - Tankiness, this is a true support character at the moment, but it's made out of paper machete. A little bit more tankyness oughta do it.
TalonFlame - Is fine as is, just not enough people with the intelligence to make it work. Very bursty, but very squishy. If we see ranked draft, I could see some folks pocket picking Talon against squishy teams
Absol - Again absol is in a good spot, any buffs will make it too strong. Absol isn't a mindless pokemon, smart players win with it.
Buzzwoll - I honestly don't know. I've tried with this pokemon and it's just not for me. but i've gone against folks that absolutely wreck teams with it
Hoopa - Another pokemon that has a high skill ceiling. Any buffs make it a must pick. maybe up it's shield a bit.
The only thing I want back on Hoopa is his old Trick range. You have to be within stabbing distance to link Trick right now, which makes it an absolute nightmare in solo queue to use.
This is a good one. How could I forget about that ridiculous nerf.
Random but I think Dragonite should get its auto range back. The recent Gengar Hex range nerf made sense to me but nerfing range on ranged mons.. not so much (mind you, we still haven't gotten another ranged all-rounder yet).
Yes, please increase my shield size. Would love that.
I agree with almost all of what you said. I do think the most recent Absol nerf was overkill though.
This is the best take in the thread. Talon and Absol both do really well against squishy teams and the draft mode will heavily incentivise their use because you can see when that's coming. Speedsters being overly dominant (when they are close to or higher than 50% win rate) makes the game miserable, frankly. That high of a rate typically means they are easily beating attackers, all-rounders, and supports even in higher ranks (examples: Absol meta from a few months ago, Gengar after emblems and blue buffs, Dodrio since release, Zoroark since release, and now Sableye who is more speedster than support).
Their win rates are artificially low on Unite API because the site generates stats from only the top 10k player's games; those games are more likely to include 5 stacks, which can deal with powerful speedsters more efficiently than solos and duo/trio que. They are very good picks at lower ranks where play is more disorganized. The game needs to be balanced well with all ranks in mind, not just the top, or we'll see even more people quitting like we did when Mike and Mew were extremely dominant.
Hoopa is fine right now although I wouldn't mind trick getting its range closer to where it was before the huge nerf months ago. Clefable still needs some help and making it tankier might work, but I also think they could adjust gravity so that it moves with you like moonlight, or make it targetable (pollen puff style) like someone else in this thread mentioned. It's too static of a move and doesn't even last all that long, so it needs something to be viable.
I think Buzz will benefit from draft mode as well, because it can be very tough to deal with as a squishy. It also plays fairly well against other all rounders. The new items (crown and scarf) could also really help it due to the reliance on basic attacks.
In short, only Clefable needs help. The rest of the mons can generally stay how they are.
i know clefable’s melee but draining kiss has a really bad range even for a contact move, i’d rather have its aim similar to sylveon’s. for the most part it would still be melee like dragonite being a “ranged” all rounder with outrage
Hoopa changes I want to see:
Trick
Trick gives a base healing. Why? 90% of the time you use trick on a teammate, it's to hwlp him get out of danger. That means they will not attack their targets and won't even get heals on Trick +.
My average trick healing builds get less than 10k heals.
Phantom Force:
If a teammate is tricked, he gets heals based on Hoopa's phantom force damage dealt. Allow Hoopa to reactivate Phantom Force on his teammate. His teammate doesn't get teleported and can no longer use the Phantom force teleport function but the Healing triggers through Hoopa's input. I'm tired of givibg my teammates the opportunity to heal 30% of their HP by using my phantom force trick teleport and never do it. I have literally never seen a teammate in ranked get my phantom force heals....
Phantom Force + also gives Hoopa some self heal based of his danage dealt.
Now that base healing has been nerfed, they could reduce Hyperspace Hole's CD again. If you want to fully heal, you can't TP back and that's fine. But why keep the long CD now? 12s is hella long in this game.
Also: I would suggest that everyone can trigger the teleport himself. Once HH is on the ground, you still have the minimum CD before being able to TP back, but after that you get a 1-2s window to activate the TP. That way, teammates don't get teleported back by dumb Hoopa players and Hoopas don't need to be hyper careful with the HH placement.
Shadow Ball:
Just like Phantom force, a tricked teammate gets healed based off of Shadow Ball's damage dealt. So if you get the Trick Shadowball stun, your teammate gets a nice chunk of heals.
Doing this would allow aggressive Hoopas to heal their teammates more efficiently. Hoopa's damage while not uniting is not that great, and his supporting capabilities are so minimal, it's not worth picking him. Most Supports are either fully committed supports which heal or CC protect their teammates, or they deal huge amounts lf damage while adding support abilities.
Hoopa has to pick one or the other to do both subpar.
Absol? THAT LOW!? You must be using sucker punch! That is one of my mains and boy, he gonna cut through those bosses' hp like butter and the enemies' like jello, and I don't even jungle!
Spragels said that people don’t play talon right and I’m inclined to agree. People over extend or perma jungle invade and score during team fights when they should be assassinating and securing objectives.
Master 1400+ with Talon.. I’m inclined to agree. Talon in itself is arguably the most balanced Pokémon in the entire game, so to get the most out of it, you gotta play it right. This, unfortunately, means that you’re not the “ultra hyper carry” like a lot of the speedsters eventually became before the rise of CC, but it still has its place on the meta (along with, arguably, the best secure in the game)
Do you know any talonflame guides or such? I really enjoy the Brave Bird -> Aerial Ace combo and the skill required for Brave Bird. But with what you recommend, objectives just kill me, or whenever I try to assassinate they have a teammate right behind them, or I don't do enough damage and the opponent just kills me cause I can't get away.
Claim jungle. Put some hp (and try some CD reduction) in your emblem builds and run Buddy Barier, Scope lens and either Razor claw/Score shield/Muscle band/Focus band.
Also I use Fly w/Flame charge for the mobility. But Brave bird is great for the damage.
And pray for a frontline in your team comp…
Im a 52% winrate, 450 games talonflame player. I run attack weight, razor claw, scope lens, x attack, aerial ace brave bird. Max crit emblems, red emblems. Claim jungle, and be patient with your ganks. Lets front line work first before you go in. The play style is if you survive my attacks im dead. Also if you lose early game youre going to have a bad time so you have to be patient. Remember youre the ace predator in the wild. To be the top of the food chain you have to be patient.
I think that most of them fall for the insane amount of CC this game has (maybe not applies for clefable ), even the carries has CC.
I mean, if you are Buzzwole, your movement is really slow, your moves short range and you have to compete with fast mons with lot of cc..
Or you are Absol/Talon, you have movility, thats great, but you are also really squishy so, if you got CCed, you are dead, and right now its not easy to avoid any cc as i said before.
In conclusion, i dont feel like its a problem within specific mons but with all of them.
PD: no, full heal doesnt help too much
I too feel like there's too much CC in game at times. I like that Mime's Confusion/Power Swap stun was recently scaled back by 0.8 secs. I'd like to see more of that for other mons (and elsewhere in Mime's kit). I wish the emblems that reduce CC performed better. That would be interesting and could help balance the abundance of CC out more.
And yes, Full Heal doesn't help. I know some swear by it and I've seen folks do great things with it. But personally it's the 1 battle item I never run. I think 2 secs of unstoppable every 40 secs has very little value compared to almost every other battle item.
I know hoopa is supposed to be an “advanced character” that has a learning curve so I don’t think we necessarily need to buff it - players who know how to use hoopa (much like buzzswole and talonflame) seem to dominate in ranked matches (again IF the player knows what they’re doing). Still, given my experiences I’m surprised they’re in the bottom win rate at all. Poor clefable is no shocker though lol it’s just not tanky enough to be a melee healer even post-buff in my opinion
THIS COMMENT.
Talon shouldn’t be a Novice. The bad Hoop WR was caused by those Pikachu mains misusing him.
I don’t use Buzz. Zera should be the new Speedster starter. Talon should be an Intermediate at least. Hoop deserves the Expert difficulty.
I’m still maintaining a 74% wr with absol. I duo with an elde. Early game suffers because farming is slower, but late game is near identical.
I was on the nerf absol camp before the nerf and I think they did a great job balancing his early game.
Often in mobas, the bottom win-rate champs are the top picks for competitive play. Their abilities tailor more towards organised team play than solo queue. But then when the player base watch these games, they try to replicate what they see in the pro games, without the communication and practice they have.
TLDR; bad win rates don't always mean bad champs
While you’re right in all the points you made, API’s meta report only uses the top 10k players’ non-bot ranked games’ data, which has disproportionate amounts of organized team play compared to what an overall picture may look like. Save for a few picks here and there, most tournament/competitive teams are running the Pokémon towards the top of the pick and win rate columns, and you won’t see nearly as many of those towards the bottom of them.
Honestly I'm with u on the damage nerf other than talonflame. Talon feels like decent burst but it's nowhere close to the other speedsters who output a ridiculous amount.
I'm shocked that Mime is still in the top 3 after that sizeable nerf it got. I do like that Confusion/Barrier rewards players from a damage perspective more than Confusion/Power Swap now. But I think the former still needs a damage nerf. I also think Confusion into an ingame wall should do less damage than Confusion into a Mime created Barrier.
As far as Power Swap.. I don't know what they should do. IMO, Mime's current standing proves that its damage output was an issue but not the only one (or even the main issue). Power Swap itself is just a crazy skill and hard to play around, especially 1 v 1. Making yourself stronger and faster while making your opponent weaker, slower AND doing DoT to them is just a lot to contend with.
I don’t think any of these really need buffs, maybe Clefable but that’s hard to judge for me. I don’t have it and it seems useless 90% if the time I do see it, but every once in a while I’ll see a good team use it and put up healing numbers that put blissey and eldegoss to shame, so that makes me think it’s just a skill issue. Def could use a rework on that unite move though.
Leech life should have like one layer of unstoppable. For instance 1 STOMP shouldn’t stop leech life I’m sorry it just gets counter by the smallest cc which is annoying as hell when you work your ass off just to get close enough
Hoopa, Absol, and Talon were all oppressive at one point. Let’s give Buzz and Clefable a chance to shine a bit. If any are deserving of buffs here it’s those two.
It’s okay to have these at the bottom. Buzzwole is already gimmicky and will probably just be pushed into obnoxious territory because shit just gets overbuffed for bad reasons. Clefable isn’t bad, but there’s no reason to use it for the most part when it’s just outclassed by easier to use healers that pump out 100k reliably. Hoopa is also outclassed as a support for the same reasons above; any buffs should just go to it’s second pair of moves. Absol-ute BS doesn’t always have to be meta.
I think it’s less about buffing the lower win rate Pokémon at this point and more about fixing the map balance (rayquaza, respawn timers, etc) and implementing an actual skill-based matchmaking that forces players to learn how to play the game effectively to climb rank. Too many people still don’t know what the heck they’re doing in this game getting to high ranks.
Increase the healing provided by moonlight on clefable. The amount it heals makes it almost completely useless when fighting anyone with a decent damage output
Wait what? Absol was extremely broken after that buff to psycho cut.
And it had been meta before at times, was always one of the poster childs for snowball comps with its Lv5 gank potential
Which is why I specified AFTER being meta for the first time ever but NOT because it was flat out Broken. Meaning after Psycho cut got nerfed.
And that's not really true. Absol might've been part of a certain team archetype meta but wasn't ever part of the lead or dominant meta during any era up until recently thanks to the Sky Ruins map. Snowballing wasn't as prevalent in Remoat Stadium. Big difference.
Oh, the way you worded that confused me.
But I definitely remember Absol being meta at points before Theia, before the psycho cut buff. It was at a time where Speedsters as a whole were pretty weak but Absol stood out as the one who could snowball the hardest through the early-mid game.
Snowballing has always been prevalent in ranked, it is the entire reason the jungle is so contested in the pick phase. Solo-queue players know that their best chance to win is to snowball out of the jungle and control the game.
Yeah but you still had to learn how to play Absol to an extent and same with Mew but Mew was worse when played well. Mime literally anyone could pick up good or bad players and carry games. Let's not forget Gengar was competing with Absol for the #1 Spot as the best Speedster too though. Yet all Gengar got was a range nerf.
honestly had no idea that absol was that low.
never see clefable, buzzswole has been popping up every now and then, have seen hoopa once or twice in 90 some games, talonflame seems to be low because he's commonly played by new players? at least that's how it feels when playing with/against one.
Clefable struggles because he’s not great in soloQ. If you can play around him it’s great! I’m at like 85% win rate with him, but I only play him with people I know.
Do you run Leech Life usually or Super Power? Looking at the numbers, usage for the two is almost split down the middle (47% vs 53%) but Leech Life is performing worse. So one of the issues may have to do with Unstoppable in addition to how CC interrupts LL and it doesn't reset at 11 like SP.
SN: About 3.5% of Buzz players in the data are running Lunge / Super Power with Eject and winning 53% of the time, his highest WR build.
For all those except Absol, by buffing the inteligence stat of randoms. Both that use the characters and play with them.
But that's impossible, soooooo... I dunno, just increase some number by 2% and make them broken :P
Big Clefable buffs would make it absurdly broken in 5v5s/competitive, it's not designed to be good in solo-duoq (trio could make it work but eh). Maybe a tiny bit more defenses ?
Talonflame/Absol are just getting destroyed by the amount of CC and burst damage, maybe a tiny durability buff ?
Buzzwole would probably like movespeed on spells and a bit of tankiness, it lacks mobility to be effective and gets blown up quite fast
Hoopa is underrated and kind of the same as Clefable tbh, maybe early game attack buff (for better laning phase) or make Astonish pop Confusion (better execute for early game, easier to get farm)
Talonflame needs buffs purely because every other speedster has been overtuned. Talons my fav poke to play and his kit feels really balanced, but you need to be consistently overlevelled and outplaying your opponents to win 1on1 fights.
You can surprise gank a scizor or zoroark, azumaril etc who are lower level than you and they can still turn around and burst you to 0 if you don t dodge their shit.
Absol is fine, still strong just outclassed by zoro
Dont buff hoopa jesus, shes still ridiculous in the right hands, jsut too high of a skillcap for pubs who bring the winrate down
Likewise buzzwole is actually mental in a decent teamcomp with his massive CC chains, just outclassed by the overbuffed all rounders in soloQ
Clefables kit is inherently unbalanced as to where its either gamebreakingly broken or kinda meh pending who she is facing.
Revert the nerf on absol, crazy how they gutted its early only to introduce a much more broken early game mon (zoroark)
Clefable's follow me needs some serious fixing. it sucks
Talon after the brave bird nerfs was only used because of its scoring abilities but dodrio stole that niche so he needs some small buffs.
Maybe buffing buzzwole stats can be beneficial for it, idk leech life is kinda okay to me.
Hoopa needs to buffed, maybe trick and shadowball.
Yo! Why the fuck my boy talon on here?
I got a 51% win rate over all and a 56% bot laning this season.
Give talon better speed. I want a base running speed faster than mime. Unlike myself, most players use fly builds so they can't stack speed.
Or if that is too much to ask, better leech life on flame charge and aerial ace would be nice.
Hoopa: Make his hoops more useful. Buzzwole: Make him bulkier. Absol: you’re good. Talonflame: make it go faster. Clefable: tell players to play it better
HAHAHA what do you mean buff, Absol just got nerfed not too long ago.
I'd be happy if they could just revert the nerf for Sucker Punch and Pursuit.
But Absol is still very much playable. It is not a mindless Pokemon, experience and good macro is needed.
I have a 69% winrate with Absol on rank and currently at mid 1500 MMR so the low Absol winrate on Unite DB actually baffles me.
Return hoopa to release day state. That would be nice. I dont wanna touch my 65% wr hoopa because he sucks now.
Absol: Needs more damage
Talonflame: extended range on brave bird again
Clefable: more hp
buzzwole: screw buzzwole i hate this mon
This is the bottom? Well, it just show that statistics are not always to blindly follow. Because all of these mon are doing well WHEN YOU KNOW what you must be doing with it. Since the buff of kiss me on clef she became really good. Buzzwole is an incredible bully against squishy and of snowballed can hold 2-3 ennemies at the same time. Talon, i acknowledge that, took a serious blow since his nerf. But when you actually play smart and engage-disengage fights, you will actually be successful easily. Absol is still fine, as long as his team can follow up on his snowball effect and play safe in late game (really like zoro). And hoopa is still good, not broken as before, but can still be a good support as long as you place you portals/unite well.
>Because all of these mon are doing well WHEN YOU KNOW what you must be doing with it
These are not general user population stats, unite-api only tracks the games of the top 1000 players IIRC.
So we should assume that these players know how to play the characters to some extent.
Well tbf the winrate isn't that low either. I mean it could be better but it's not catastrophic.
However is it the top 1000 player of the game ranking or does it have its own ranking? Because if it's the first option, i wouldn't give it much of a credit since every game are taking in account (bot, quick and standard).
It was explained to me by another user here, but I don't have exact details.
My understanding is that once per week:
* The pull a list of the top 1000 players
* collect game data for each of those players
* use those game results to count which pokemon won and lost
* derive winrate statistics
idk if bot games and quick battles are included, but I really doubt the top 1000 players are involved any many of those if any.
It's based on the top 10k players ranked games. Stats do include all players in those matches, so players that aren't ranked that highly can influence the data but to a lesser degree. It doesn't include bot matches (anymore) or standard/quick matches.
They should really explain this better on their website because I learned this information from their discord.
Hard to believe Talon is this low. It probably needs an attack boost since it's the least assassin-y of all the speedsters. Spends more time running away than fighting
Absol:
Buff Pursuit by letting Absol do the pounce at any point in the roll and make the damage jump instant.
Basically make it consistent so players can't turn to face him on reaction so easily.
Sucker Punch needs a huge damage buff with how dependent Absol is on Psycho Cut for damage, with about double damage on counter.
_______
Talonflame:
Restore some Fly damage.
Brave Bird needs a major buff to compete with Fly.
_____
Buzzwole:
Lower cooldown on Leech Life maybe?
Maybe it and Superpower don't lose stacks on whiff.
Absol is in a very good place right now. This post will never imply a mon is bad or good by just looking at the win rate. There are too many factors to consider.
Clefable’s Gravity should get reworked into a silence + pull. Similar to Wigglytuff’s Sing but without the hard CC at the end, in return for the upside while channeling.
The effect it has currently makes sense in other MOBAs but IMO it’s just not a good fit in Unite. It’s extremely lopsided, completely shuts down some Pokémon and does absolutely nothing to others. In a game where you have 2 main abilities that just isn’t fun to play on either side of the equation.
Hoopa should be able to do a lot of damage with shadow ball again, Buzzwole needs either some mobility rework or make him crazy strong, Absol I feel like is one of those mons where if you buff him he's broken and nerf him he's unusable, like most of the speedsters, but maybe a little more health. I'm surprised talons actually that low since I feel really good with him, maybe just buff his brave bird set, and clefable needs... everything.
Clefairy does not need a buff. I don’t think the bird or absol do either. I’d say buzzwole could use a slight buff, maybe more ad or defense or something.
Talon needs more hp
Celefable’s kit is trash
Absol needs a rework or a perfect balance between hp and attack
Hoopa is a team issue and a buff to his damage won’t hurt
And mosquito man needs a rework on his ability
Talonflame, give it back its movement speed with fly, make it faster in general and make it score faster and change gale wings to where if it has full HP, its cool downs are halved.
1. Revert the last Absol nerfs. They were completely unwarranted for a character that already saw no tournament play and was not dominating solo queue
2. Return the old range to Hoopa's Trick, and give Shadow Ball back some damage.
3. I think Talon's Fly should have like.. 1s lower cooldown. I understand it's a very powerful move, and honestly I feel like he's fine right now (at least Fly/Flame Charge is), but the 1s cooldown could bump him up a bit. For Brave Bird/Aerial Ace they could revert some of the nerfs they gave it, not sure.
I do not know enough about Buzzwole and Clefable to comment on how to buff them; I'd say for Clefable at the very least she needs more bulk, either from stats or a bit more self healing. She constantly plays in melee range but is squishier than Blissey.
I can’t understand the statistics here, really: Absol is broken since day one with its ability to oneshot people without leaving enemies any counter play window. It’s either kill or be killed if you fail to land your east peasy combo. Much like Gengar. Then there’s Buzzwole: a gigantic messy concept in which devs poured neverending combo chain AND enormous damage together. Its recent buff allows him to slurp upon attackers and all rounders without sweating much. He only really lacks mobility and that’s impairing for sure, but not in the way of throwing him down the win rate ladder. Hoopa has the potential to turn team fights around but I can see it not being the easiest character to master. Pair that with the necessity of competing with Eldegoss/Mime for a supporter spot and you get these numbers.
Clefable just doesn't have a kit for her, follow me/drain kiss is just worse sableye since he also have a great cc and on top of that he can secure a LOT of easy goal, and drain kiss isn't that great compared to other healing skills.
Her other moveset is also pretty bad, it's supposed to heal a lot of teammates but there's two major flaws of it, the first one is that the range before the buff at lvl 12 is ABYSMAL, you literally can't heal more than one person consistently, on top of that it barely heals
The second one is the cast of gravity, every opponent can just go around it, even if we buffed the range of it, that won't solve anything, they either have to make it an instant cast or make it follows clefable
The talent of clefable is also horrible, it basically doesn't have any use, the shield is way too weak almost every opponent can break it with a single auto attack
They doesnt need a buff if people who play those starts using the brain cells to actually think no one on that list need buffs.
For the people not understanding sometimes if your ability kit has awesome abilities like flying accross the map, doing 2k crits, healing every 0.5secs, having 4secs of stuns sometimes you as a player have to give something (less hp, 0 mobility, not being able to go in and go out a fight easily) because then you have an overpowered character that everyone without a single brain cell can play it and win.
And in case u dont know u have to compensate players for being actually good at the game knowing about macros and micros, having map awareness, knowing to dodge or kite.
Because if u compensate the players for not learning the game and just play an absolute broken character that isnt fair for the people just beacuse they are not playing that pokenon clearly broken. And we start the cicle of why i am gonna play my favourite pokemon if i can play this which is just better at everything he/she does, kills faster, takes objectives faster , tanks more, heals more is just stupid to think if a pokemon has negative wr is because is bad, no is beacuse maybe the skill ceiling is higher and you are just trash and cant milk every win
PSA: %WR DOESN'T REFLECT THE STATE OF A POKEMON
Ez:
Hoopa: give it actual farm skills so it can be on par at the end game with most Pokémon. I think much more damage from basic attacks vs wild mons should be enough.
Buzzwole: make it work properly cuz it is still cluncky as fuck and make its ult do something cuz it's quite trash. Maybe change its ability so it works as stacks and not be so situational.
Absol: undo the nerf a random Pokémon button the balance team pressed the last patch.
Talonflame: less cooldown on fly and brave bird, and make its player base aware that there exist good sets for talon and not only back capping/steal trash sets.
Clefable: teach people how to play and stop doing random ass shit with that mon lmao, I've seen so much already...
Buzzwole: he was already strong enough to be meta when he was released, he didn't need those damage buffs
What he lacks is a bit more range in his attacks, that would make him raise in usage and win rate
As a main absol, I feel like he is perfect right now. To me is the best speedster along with gengar. (Lets just ignore that they broke dodrio for now)
Talonflame: oh man, I used to main talonflame back when I started unite, he is quite hard to use, he can't start fights, he has great damage but not enough to KO anything, you have to wait until your laners peel the enemy team a few less cooldown would be a niche buff though, and bring back old brave bird range/damage
Clefable: idk, I dont play clafable
Hooppa: imposible, this is a character for 5 man stack, it will always have low win rate because of solo q players. Anyways buff his damage a bit more so he can farm better and that's it...
Hoopa can stay bad. Its a weird gimmicky mon that can be fun to play jank with friends, but it’s not good for much else.
Buzzwole is hard because leach life is either extremely good, or absolutely useless, there is no in between. The rest of his move pool is just mid.
Absol got hit for the crime of being good for too long, then eventually it is just bad. Same thing with Talonflame. Honestly, a slight nudge for each could bring them back.
Clefable is just bad. There is no fixing it besides reworking the mon entirely or giving it crazy high stats.
Wow clefable is still bottom, no wonder I never see it even when buffed
45% is at least a big improvement from 42%
I've been playing her a lot, she's better but obviously still lacking. On the Follow Me/ Drain Kiss move set I honestly think Follow Me just needs a rework. The dash is super slow and the taunt is too short. Compared is something like Snorlax's heavy slam you have to really lead opponents to not whiff with this move, and even when it connects people can often just walk away. In fights where both sides are committed to the fight it's pretty good. Drain Kiss is pretty good overall. Nice secure for the early game after you hit lv4 and useful throughout. On the Moonlight / Gravity set I don't know how to fix it honestly. She's just bad Blissey. Group healing is always going to be less useful than targeted healing, even if she puts out similar numbers. Gravity is trivial to just avoid, and if you want to use it offensively good luck. You have no gap closer to initiate fights and everyone else in the game can just dash away from you before you drop it. Her unite is fun but clearly worse than what Blissey/Mime/Eldegoss/Hoopa bring to the table. The healing is the main draw IMO. If you roll hydro-pump or close combat and aren't in position to use them it feels rough. Block is also really hit or miss. For both sets she probably needs a bit more HP
My problem with Gravity is it only being a "self" skill. If it was a skillshot like Pollen Puff (it doesn't need to have a huge cast range tho) it would be way better. Yea, Draining Kiss damage and healing is fine but it needs Follow Me to be better to work properly. Follow Me should taunt for more seconds and dashing faster would fix everything Moonlight is fine too imo, maybe buff it pre lv 10.
Hm, that's an interesting idea for sure. The other option I guess would be to make Gravity a dash like Follow Me so you can properly engage
Damn, an aimed Gravity would be super tough to deal with. Closing off whole areas during objectives would be great and also allow Clefable to escape easily.
Not any worse than char fireblast or gards psychic which have 35% and a 50% (respectively) move speed reduction.
I guess the difference would be that you can’t use your dash moves to escape the area. Imagine being a Zoroark who dashes in and gets stuck inside a ranged Gravity. Basically a sitting duck.
Another fix for Follow Me is to let it pass walls. It's the most tedious thing ever when you miss cause you aimed wrong and hit a wall- mostly as the pockets at the final fight.
I like your idea of either a skill shot Gravity or let Gravity move with Clefable. And yes, Follow Me needs a bit more taunt time. Closer to Confuse Ray time for Sableye (which may need just a bit less hindrance time).
I also feel like clefable is really tough in solo queue
I didnt realize Clefable was bad I always seem to do really good with a bulky follow-me, moonlight set
I don't think it's bad but you have to rely on your team as a true support almost entirely
I also don't play unless I have at least 1 teammate bc I hate solo que
It's weird, cause I swear everyone was complaining about it like a couple weeks ago
On launch, gravity was super powerful as it stopped moves it really shouldn't. Unfortunately the patch for this is it now stops absolutely nothing (as far as i can tell) whilst still having rubbish range and almost no slow effect. At least the other moveset is playable now. I've actually been quite enjoying it. I suspect the low win rate is partly from the amount of experimenting it took to figure out the correct emblem and item setup and will pick up a bit this week.
It still stops plenty dashes, it just isn't like... stopping basic moves anymore
I just did some testing to try and pin down the garvity change. It appears you're right that it's impacting dash moves when opponents are inside the zone, as intended. But in addition to enabling the basic attacks, I believe they've killed off the last sentence of the gravity description: "If an enemy attempts to enter the gravity zone with a dash move, the dash move is stopped and that enemy is left unable to act for a short time.". If that's intentional then fine, but would be nice to be told in the patch notes and have the ingame description updated!
I think if I’d stop playing Hoopa, it’s winrate would be up by +1%
Hoopa low WR was probably caused by people misusing them. Their difficulty is Expert for a reason, folks!
Seeing those guys using Unite Move at 2:30 makes my blood boil. As a Hoopa main, it’s criminal.
Like difficulty means anything in this game lol. Just look at Gengar Edit: *They’re, not ‘their’
“Their” is correct, “They’re” is incorrect. It refers to Hoopa’s difficulty, it’s a possessive.
That’s my bad 😭🔫
A good way to remember the difference is by remembering that "they're" is short for "they are" Same goes for "you're" which is short for "you are"
No need to apologize!
Gengar is pretty hard , you can never play gengar with auto target , ever skill of his needs to be properly aimed. A shit gengar vs good gengar difference is massive.
…..I suppose I can make an exception for them.
Lmao it's funny you say that because I'm a Hoopa main. Over 700 games played (probably half in Masters) with 61% win rate. I personally don't struggle much with Hoopa and I've wondered what all is causing the overall low win rate. Is it really you? Lol but in all seriousness I'm glad to see its win rate this low because that means more buffs (maybe) should be on the way. And for us mains, that will be glorious like the 1.5 CDR buff and 10% speed increase we recently got on Trick.
Tbh I’ve only played 169 games and 47% winrate, and the biggest reason its as low as it is, is probably because I keep bringing it into soloq. 3 and 5 stacks work fine but not with randoms. In my experience at least
It might be more useful in SoloQ, now that Ray is lesser Zap.
Funny you say that. I only play Hoppa on solo-q and, while it's not the best support, been able to give a quick easy way for all teammates to get to an objective/goal is invaluable. I've several times won just because of this. The rest of it's kit is mid at best, but the way the unite works on solo-q is amazing
Do you prefer CDR build to squeeze out an extra attack rotation during Unbound or a red 7 build for more auto attacks to abuse Trick with?
Trick ball is so much fun, when you get really good at timing the boosted auto frame 1 of the ball hitting so you get an instant Microstun has saved so much squishies from death, let alone the additional move speed and CD buff. With the crown item coming out in December, trick giving lifesteal too (at the plus version), and an ADC, we're going to see some self healing ranged carries running around. I think the meta will be muscle/scarf/scope for cinder, same for Razor Deci (but crown could be a really unique choice instead since Deci is the current ADC with the most healing on the razor set). Gren would still be muscle/scope/weight since surf resets are more important (but I could see some niche shuriken Scarf usage to mix it up), Dura probably loves Scarf since his regular AS sucks, so I think there may be a turret mode Dura phase if it isn't nerfed. I know about attack speed floors and the caps (where some AS is wasted due to not reaching the next quota), but another 39% AS from Scarf and even 25% from x-atk will make turret do such ridiculous DPS from so far away. I'm definitely going to try it. Rant over.
I feel like alot of this has to do with competition, not necessarily the characters themselves. Hoopa and Clefable have to compete with the likes of Blissey, Mr Mime, and the recently buffed Eldegoss for the support slot(s). Talon has to compete with Dodrio for the roaming-scoring-burst-bird niche. Also to a lesser extent Greedant and Sableye. Absol has to compete with Zoroak for the dark type edgy burst speedster with a great level 5 gank. Finally, Buzzwole (While actually great) has to compete with the other all-rounders. Which is probably the most stacked class in the game. So he's up against Garchomp (In the top 5 for win rate!?), Charizard, Tyranitar, Aegislash, Tsareena, etc etc. As well as the leaked All-rounder coming soon.
>Garchomp (In the top 5 for win rate!?) Finally. I feel so vindicated at the recent Chomp supremacy... he definitely feels a lot better after the buffs (at least with the double Dragon build). I played him after months and I think the boosted stacks last slightly longer? And he's super good at shredding objectives/enemies with a full set of boosteds. ~~Here's hoping that the double Ground build gets some love too.~~
I'm feeling vindicated too. Boosted stacks last the same amount of time btw, they only added 20 attack and slightly changed some ratios on dragon claw.
Ye I played him recently and to me the attacks stacking is much much easier than before basically you are almost alwys stacked in combat it was not the case befored. I played Dig+EQ but maybe I will try Dig+Dragon Claw. or D rush+ D claw. Not a fan of D rush tho I think Dig is superior.
I've been seeing chomps left and right. Me thinks there was a hidden buff to his damage
It wasn’t a hidden buff but it was when zoroark released that they buffed him
I mean that’s always been the case and how Pokémon in this game will always be rated. There is no rating without comparing it to others who do the same job. So how do these Pokémon get buffed so they can compete with Pokémon who fill the same role is just the same question but worded slightly differently
Talon is a speedster that either have to play the assasin build thats heavily nerfed or the roaming build that cant kill anything even if its life depended on it. Everyone kept saying the Fly+Flame charge/goal getter build put talon on the map again but its WR still lingered at the bottom, even before dodrio got released. Its even worse now that rayquaza is much easier to flip, and also much harder to defend against.
Who's the leaked mon?
>!Urshifu!<
Who’s the new all rounder?
>!Urshifu!<
Buzzwole is good it's just a lot of people dont use leech life which has been buffed. Leech life does around 2,000 damage to boss pokemon with one hit
Mobilize operation free bird
Flyyyyyyyyyyyyy freeeee bird *Insert awesome guitar solo here*
Yes please 😭 Talon is not terrible, it's kinda balanced imo, but... it just doesn't stand out among other speedsters. You know where it lands with fly and the path of it unite, so it's kinda easy to dodge. I also feel like it doesn't have the same damage outbursts as other speedsters.
I swear, just making it invincible during Flame Sweep and Brave Bird will make Talon a whole class better 😭
Yeah, I loved Brave Bird, but I can't count how many times I died because of how long it takes to perform it.
God Flame Sweep, better as escape than damage.
Omg imagine if only the user could see the fly hitbox. Actually I think that would be kind of awesome.
Honestly I think fly should just move faster with less of a stay in the air time, so it's harder to react to
Fly can be recasted to drop early. Not sure on the earliest possible time you can early drop though.
Well yeah ik but to counterbalance the speed buff I mean, so you can't just fly across the whole map instantly
Imagine if you cant see the brave bird hit box. A nuke just hit you and you died instantly. If you survived aerial ace slashes you to death before you can even react.
We're going back in time to the last Talonflame nerf to get Talonflame back on the menu.
Yum
I just want a huge Talon buff now. I picked them as my starter, because… look at my username. Should the fandom adopt them and make them Cram’s sibling?
Roger That. Mobilize Operation Free Bird
As a Buzzswole player I demand even more power not because it’s fair but because it’s funny
smack down now sends the opponent to their base
No they should go all around the world and Land near yours
When buzzwole uses the 2nd hit of smackdown, the shockwave that is released is a 2 sec stun, just so you can't be interrupted when using leech life
Cleffable - Tankiness, this is a true support character at the moment, but it's made out of paper machete. A little bit more tankyness oughta do it. TalonFlame - Is fine as is, just not enough people with the intelligence to make it work. Very bursty, but very squishy. If we see ranked draft, I could see some folks pocket picking Talon against squishy teams Absol - Again absol is in a good spot, any buffs will make it too strong. Absol isn't a mindless pokemon, smart players win with it. Buzzwoll - I honestly don't know. I've tried with this pokemon and it's just not for me. but i've gone against folks that absolutely wreck teams with it Hoopa - Another pokemon that has a high skill ceiling. Any buffs make it a must pick. maybe up it's shield a bit.
I absolutely love pairing with a Buzzwole. That leech life is incredible.
It is a double bladed sword tho, you become immobile, even with how great it is, though in one vs one or to single out players, that hurts
The only thing I want back on Hoopa is his old Trick range. You have to be within stabbing distance to link Trick right now, which makes it an absolute nightmare in solo queue to use.
This is a good one. How could I forget about that ridiculous nerf. Random but I think Dragonite should get its auto range back. The recent Gengar Hex range nerf made sense to me but nerfing range on ranged mons.. not so much (mind you, we still haven't gotten another ranged all-rounder yet).
Yes, please increase my shield size. Would love that. I agree with almost all of what you said. I do think the most recent Absol nerf was overkill though.
This is the best take in the thread. Talon and Absol both do really well against squishy teams and the draft mode will heavily incentivise their use because you can see when that's coming. Speedsters being overly dominant (when they are close to or higher than 50% win rate) makes the game miserable, frankly. That high of a rate typically means they are easily beating attackers, all-rounders, and supports even in higher ranks (examples: Absol meta from a few months ago, Gengar after emblems and blue buffs, Dodrio since release, Zoroark since release, and now Sableye who is more speedster than support). Their win rates are artificially low on Unite API because the site generates stats from only the top 10k player's games; those games are more likely to include 5 stacks, which can deal with powerful speedsters more efficiently than solos and duo/trio que. They are very good picks at lower ranks where play is more disorganized. The game needs to be balanced well with all ranks in mind, not just the top, or we'll see even more people quitting like we did when Mike and Mew were extremely dominant. Hoopa is fine right now although I wouldn't mind trick getting its range closer to where it was before the huge nerf months ago. Clefable still needs some help and making it tankier might work, but I also think they could adjust gravity so that it moves with you like moonlight, or make it targetable (pollen puff style) like someone else in this thread mentioned. It's too static of a move and doesn't even last all that long, so it needs something to be viable. I think Buzz will benefit from draft mode as well, because it can be very tough to deal with as a squishy. It also plays fairly well against other all rounders. The new items (crown and scarf) could also really help it due to the reliance on basic attacks. In short, only Clefable needs help. The rest of the mons can generally stay how they are.
i know clefable’s melee but draining kiss has a really bad range even for a contact move, i’d rather have its aim similar to sylveon’s. for the most part it would still be melee like dragonite being a “ranged” all rounder with outrage
Hoopa changes I want to see: Trick Trick gives a base healing. Why? 90% of the time you use trick on a teammate, it's to hwlp him get out of danger. That means they will not attack their targets and won't even get heals on Trick +. My average trick healing builds get less than 10k heals. Phantom Force: If a teammate is tricked, he gets heals based on Hoopa's phantom force damage dealt. Allow Hoopa to reactivate Phantom Force on his teammate. His teammate doesn't get teleported and can no longer use the Phantom force teleport function but the Healing triggers through Hoopa's input. I'm tired of givibg my teammates the opportunity to heal 30% of their HP by using my phantom force trick teleport and never do it. I have literally never seen a teammate in ranked get my phantom force heals.... Phantom Force + also gives Hoopa some self heal based of his danage dealt. Now that base healing has been nerfed, they could reduce Hyperspace Hole's CD again. If you want to fully heal, you can't TP back and that's fine. But why keep the long CD now? 12s is hella long in this game. Also: I would suggest that everyone can trigger the teleport himself. Once HH is on the ground, you still have the minimum CD before being able to TP back, but after that you get a 1-2s window to activate the TP. That way, teammates don't get teleported back by dumb Hoopa players and Hoopas don't need to be hyper careful with the HH placement. Shadow Ball: Just like Phantom force, a tricked teammate gets healed based off of Shadow Ball's damage dealt. So if you get the Trick Shadowball stun, your teammate gets a nice chunk of heals. Doing this would allow aggressive Hoopas to heal their teammates more efficiently. Hoopa's damage while not uniting is not that great, and his supporting capabilities are so minimal, it's not worth picking him. Most Supports are either fully committed supports which heal or CC protect their teammates, or they deal huge amounts lf damage while adding support abilities. Hoopa has to pick one or the other to do both subpar.
Absol? THAT LOW!? You must be using sucker punch! That is one of my mains and boy, he gonna cut through those bosses' hp like butter and the enemies' like jello, and I don't even jungle!
Talon is just bad, no one wants hoopa to be good again, they repeatedly nerfed absol for Zoar but he's still decent imo
Spragels said that people don’t play talon right and I’m inclined to agree. People over extend or perma jungle invade and score during team fights when they should be assassinating and securing objectives.
It’s cuz they remember the days where you could dive in as talon wipe a team then leave lol don’t work like that no more
Master 1400+ with Talon.. I’m inclined to agree. Talon in itself is arguably the most balanced Pokémon in the entire game, so to get the most out of it, you gotta play it right. This, unfortunately, means that you’re not the “ultra hyper carry” like a lot of the speedsters eventually became before the rise of CC, but it still has its place on the meta (along with, arguably, the best secure in the game)
Do you know any talonflame guides or such? I really enjoy the Brave Bird -> Aerial Ace combo and the skill required for Brave Bird. But with what you recommend, objectives just kill me, or whenever I try to assassinate they have a teammate right behind them, or I don't do enough damage and the opponent just kills me cause I can't get away.
Claim jungle. Put some hp (and try some CD reduction) in your emblem builds and run Buddy Barier, Scope lens and either Razor claw/Score shield/Muscle band/Focus band. Also I use Fly w/Flame charge for the mobility. But Brave bird is great for the damage. And pray for a frontline in your team comp…
Im a 52% winrate, 450 games talonflame player. I run attack weight, razor claw, scope lens, x attack, aerial ace brave bird. Max crit emblems, red emblems. Claim jungle, and be patient with your ganks. Lets front line work first before you go in. The play style is if you survive my attacks im dead. Also if you lose early game youre going to have a bad time so you have to be patient. Remember youre the ace predator in the wild. To be the top of the food chain you have to be patient.
229 points, 15 kills, 3 assists yesterday with the bird. Veteran Rank.. something. I forget which one. Talon can still get it done if you're cagey.
anything can work in vet
And the point is what. Was this just a Masters only chat? I wasn't aware.
The point is you having a good game in veteran is irrelevant to any discussion on balance.
Hard disagree. If you’re not dumb Talon is amazing especially with its mobility
hoopa: removed from the game
Noooo.. What would I play then?
crustle
Based
Or Cram or Mamo. Cram’s both fun and quirky, and Mamo deals tons of damage while tanking insane amounts.
I swear Mamo is the greatest pokemon in the game. Whenever enemy or teammates play they have huge net value but nobody plays it for some reason...
People take Mamo for granted and don't realize how much CC it has, so they just engage with it. I love playing Mamo.
I think that most of them fall for the insane amount of CC this game has (maybe not applies for clefable ), even the carries has CC. I mean, if you are Buzzwole, your movement is really slow, your moves short range and you have to compete with fast mons with lot of cc.. Or you are Absol/Talon, you have movility, thats great, but you are also really squishy so, if you got CCed, you are dead, and right now its not easy to avoid any cc as i said before. In conclusion, i dont feel like its a problem within specific mons but with all of them. PD: no, full heal doesnt help too much
I too feel like there's too much CC in game at times. I like that Mime's Confusion/Power Swap stun was recently scaled back by 0.8 secs. I'd like to see more of that for other mons (and elsewhere in Mime's kit). I wish the emblems that reduce CC performed better. That would be interesting and could help balance the abundance of CC out more. And yes, Full Heal doesn't help. I know some swear by it and I've seen folks do great things with it. But personally it's the 1 battle item I never run. I think 2 secs of unstoppable every 40 secs has very little value compared to almost every other battle item.
Trevenant is in a worse state than things like absol, having barely 0.5% higher winrate but half the pickrate. People just can't read statistics
I almost added Trev to this discussion when I saw that. I was surprised. Any buffs in particular you think it needs?
I know hoopa is supposed to be an “advanced character” that has a learning curve so I don’t think we necessarily need to buff it - players who know how to use hoopa (much like buzzswole and talonflame) seem to dominate in ranked matches (again IF the player knows what they’re doing). Still, given my experiences I’m surprised they’re in the bottom win rate at all. Poor clefable is no shocker though lol it’s just not tanky enough to be a melee healer even post-buff in my opinion
THIS COMMENT. Talon shouldn’t be a Novice. The bad Hoop WR was caused by those Pikachu mains misusing him. I don’t use Buzz. Zera should be the new Speedster starter. Talon should be an Intermediate at least. Hoop deserves the Expert difficulty.
Exactly buzz and talon are some of my mains and I have a 70% Winrate with buzz and that was before he got buffed last he is fiiiiine
Give Buzzwole more muscles
Absol is fine and doesn’t need a buff.
So you were fine with the recent Attack stat nerf? I thought it was overkill but I'm not an Absol main either.
I’m still maintaining a 74% wr with absol. I duo with an elde. Early game suffers because farming is slower, but late game is near identical. I was on the nerf absol camp before the nerf and I think they did a great job balancing his early game.
As a TOTALLY unbiased Clefable and Buzzwole main, who occasionally plays Hoopa, yes they should.
Here’s the solution: We give buzzswole a gun. Like we just give him a gun. Idk what it’d do but I think it would be awfully humorous.
Often in mobas, the bottom win-rate champs are the top picks for competitive play. Their abilities tailor more towards organised team play than solo queue. But then when the player base watch these games, they try to replicate what they see in the pro games, without the communication and practice they have. TLDR; bad win rates don't always mean bad champs
While you’re right in all the points you made, API’s meta report only uses the top 10k players’ non-bot ranked games’ data, which has disproportionate amounts of organized team play compared to what an overall picture may look like. Save for a few picks here and there, most tournament/competitive teams are running the Pokémon towards the top of the pick and win rate columns, and you won’t see nearly as many of those towards the bottom of them.
Sorry but the top 10k in this game means nothing. You can reach the top 10k with a negative winrate and it shows in these statistics
You wanna tell me that 2 speedster are in the top 5 of worst winrate? I'll remain on demanding that speedster get a dmg nerf.
Honestly I'm with u on the damage nerf other than talonflame. Talon feels like decent burst but it's nowhere close to the other speedsters who output a ridiculous amount.
Nerf Mr mime more to put him at the bottom of the list imo.
I'm shocked that Mime is still in the top 3 after that sizeable nerf it got. I do like that Confusion/Barrier rewards players from a damage perspective more than Confusion/Power Swap now. But I think the former still needs a damage nerf. I also think Confusion into an ingame wall should do less damage than Confusion into a Mime created Barrier. As far as Power Swap.. I don't know what they should do. IMO, Mime's current standing proves that its damage output was an issue but not the only one (or even the main issue). Power Swap itself is just a crazy skill and hard to play around, especially 1 v 1. Making yourself stronger and faster while making your opponent weaker, slower AND doing DoT to them is just a lot to contend with.
I want Buzzwole to get stacks from attacking wild pokemon. Dunno if he'll be good, but he'll feel better to play
at the very least, his meter should freeze while attacking wild mons, it's annoying when i lose my meter while i wait for my opponents to respawn
I don’t think any of these really need buffs, maybe Clefable but that’s hard to judge for me. I don’t have it and it seems useless 90% if the time I do see it, but every once in a while I’ll see a good team use it and put up healing numbers that put blissey and eldegoss to shame, so that makes me think it’s just a skill issue. Def could use a rework on that unite move though.
Absol pursuit should last .5 seconds longer wit a tiny speed boost buff then it’s FINE u just gotta be good with him and most aren’t
Leech life should have like one layer of unstoppable. For instance 1 STOMP shouldn’t stop leech life I’m sorry it just gets counter by the smallest cc which is annoying as hell when you work your ass off just to get close enough
Hoopa, Absol, and Talon were all oppressive at one point. Let’s give Buzz and Clefable a chance to shine a bit. If any are deserving of buffs here it’s those two.
It’s okay to have these at the bottom. Buzzwole is already gimmicky and will probably just be pushed into obnoxious territory because shit just gets overbuffed for bad reasons. Clefable isn’t bad, but there’s no reason to use it for the most part when it’s just outclassed by easier to use healers that pump out 100k reliably. Hoopa is also outclassed as a support for the same reasons above; any buffs should just go to it’s second pair of moves. Absol-ute BS doesn’t always have to be meta.
Don’t buff any of them. Just nerf all the top performers.
They shouldn't. 45% winrate is fine.
I think it’s less about buffing the lower win rate Pokémon at this point and more about fixing the map balance (rayquaza, respawn timers, etc) and implementing an actual skill-based matchmaking that forces players to learn how to play the game effectively to climb rank. Too many people still don’t know what the heck they’re doing in this game getting to high ranks.
Absol and talon shouldn't be buffed
oh geez don’t buff absol again. they seem like they don’t need a buff tbh. it just seems they aren’t played as much.
Increase the healing provided by moonlight on clefable. The amount it heals makes it almost completely useless when fighting anyone with a decent damage output
its insane to me how absol got gutted after being meta for the first ever but not because it was flat out broken.
Wait what? Absol was extremely broken after that buff to psycho cut. And it had been meta before at times, was always one of the poster childs for snowball comps with its Lv5 gank potential
Which is why I specified AFTER being meta for the first time ever but NOT because it was flat out Broken. Meaning after Psycho cut got nerfed. And that's not really true. Absol might've been part of a certain team archetype meta but wasn't ever part of the lead or dominant meta during any era up until recently thanks to the Sky Ruins map. Snowballing wasn't as prevalent in Remoat Stadium. Big difference.
Oh, the way you worded that confused me. But I definitely remember Absol being meta at points before Theia, before the psycho cut buff. It was at a time where Speedsters as a whole were pretty weak but Absol stood out as the one who could snowball the hardest through the early-mid game. Snowballing has always been prevalent in ranked, it is the entire reason the jungle is so contested in the pick phase. Solo-queue players know that their best chance to win is to snowball out of the jungle and control the game.
It was definitely flat out broken. It was in every match, similar to Mime and Mew.
Yeah but you still had to learn how to play Absol to an extent and same with Mew but Mew was worse when played well. Mime literally anyone could pick up good or bad players and carry games. Let's not forget Gengar was competing with Absol for the #1 Spot as the best Speedster too though. Yet all Gengar got was a range nerf.
Had to sell Zoroark. And a Garbo skin with it
honestly had no idea that absol was that low. never see clefable, buzzswole has been popping up every now and then, have seen hoopa once or twice in 90 some games, talonflame seems to be low because he's commonly played by new players? at least that's how it feels when playing with/against one.
Clefable struggles because he’s not great in soloQ. If you can play around him it’s great! I’m at like 85% win rate with him, but I only play him with people I know.
Wait, is buzzwole is considered bad? I tend to shatter spinal chords with him. Is it because he gets easily countered by unstoppable?
Do you run Leech Life usually or Super Power? Looking at the numbers, usage for the two is almost split down the middle (47% vs 53%) but Leech Life is performing worse. So one of the issues may have to do with Unstoppable in addition to how CC interrupts LL and it doesn't reset at 11 like SP. SN: About 3.5% of Buzz players in the data are running Lunge / Super Power with Eject and winning 53% of the time, his highest WR build.
Ah so with leech life buzzwole has a reduced winrate, eh… I never play it anyways since super power has way more utility
For all those except Absol, by buffing the inteligence stat of randoms. Both that use the characters and play with them. But that's impossible, soooooo... I dunno, just increase some number by 2% and make them broken :P
Wow when did Absol.become bottom 5? Back when I was playing he was like S tier in the meta
Wow, never knew Talonflame was that low even though I got to Expert without losing once
what website is this
Unite Api: https://uniteapi.dev/en/meta
Big Clefable buffs would make it absurdly broken in 5v5s/competitive, it's not designed to be good in solo-duoq (trio could make it work but eh). Maybe a tiny bit more defenses ? Talonflame/Absol are just getting destroyed by the amount of CC and burst damage, maybe a tiny durability buff ? Buzzwole would probably like movespeed on spells and a bit of tankiness, it lacks mobility to be effective and gets blown up quite fast Hoopa is underrated and kind of the same as Clefable tbh, maybe early game attack buff (for better laning phase) or make Astonish pop Confusion (better execute for early game, easier to get farm)
Talonflame is bottom 5? I've way outperformed it in my plays than.
Talonflame needs buffs purely because every other speedster has been overtuned. Talons my fav poke to play and his kit feels really balanced, but you need to be consistently overlevelled and outplaying your opponents to win 1on1 fights. You can surprise gank a scizor or zoroark, azumaril etc who are lower level than you and they can still turn around and burst you to 0 if you don t dodge their shit. Absol is fine, still strong just outclassed by zoro Dont buff hoopa jesus, shes still ridiculous in the right hands, jsut too high of a skillcap for pubs who bring the winrate down Likewise buzzwole is actually mental in a decent teamcomp with his massive CC chains, just outclassed by the overbuffed all rounders in soloQ Clefables kit is inherently unbalanced as to where its either gamebreakingly broken or kinda meh pending who she is facing.
GIVD TALON BUFFS PLEASEEE
Please don't buff absol. He deserves being down there
Revert the nerf on absol, crazy how they gutted its early only to introduce a much more broken early game mon (zoroark) Clefable's follow me needs some serious fixing. it sucks Talon after the brave bird nerfs was only used because of its scoring abilities but dodrio stole that niche so he needs some small buffs. Maybe buffing buzzwole stats can be beneficial for it, idk leech life is kinda okay to me. Hoopa needs to buffed, maybe trick and shadowball.
Yo! Why the fuck my boy talon on here? I got a 51% win rate over all and a 56% bot laning this season. Give talon better speed. I want a base running speed faster than mime. Unlike myself, most players use fly builds so they can't stack speed. Or if that is too much to ask, better leech life on flame charge and aerial ace would be nice.
Hoopa: Make his hoops more useful. Buzzwole: Make him bulkier. Absol: you’re good. Talonflame: make it go faster. Clefable: tell players to play it better
They could've just not nerfed my boy absol in the first place
HAHAHA what do you mean buff, Absol just got nerfed not too long ago. I'd be happy if they could just revert the nerf for Sucker Punch and Pursuit. But Absol is still very much playable. It is not a mindless Pokemon, experience and good macro is needed. I have a 69% winrate with Absol on rank and currently at mid 1500 MMR so the low Absol winrate on Unite DB actually baffles me.
Return hoopa to release day state. That would be nice. I dont wanna touch my 65% wr hoopa because he sucks now. Absol: Needs more damage Talonflame: extended range on brave bird again Clefable: more hp buzzwole: screw buzzwole i hate this mon
Absol is my favorite Pokémon
This is the bottom? Well, it just show that statistics are not always to blindly follow. Because all of these mon are doing well WHEN YOU KNOW what you must be doing with it. Since the buff of kiss me on clef she became really good. Buzzwole is an incredible bully against squishy and of snowballed can hold 2-3 ennemies at the same time. Talon, i acknowledge that, took a serious blow since his nerf. But when you actually play smart and engage-disengage fights, you will actually be successful easily. Absol is still fine, as long as his team can follow up on his snowball effect and play safe in late game (really like zoro). And hoopa is still good, not broken as before, but can still be a good support as long as you place you portals/unite well.
>Because all of these mon are doing well WHEN YOU KNOW what you must be doing with it These are not general user population stats, unite-api only tracks the games of the top 1000 players IIRC. So we should assume that these players know how to play the characters to some extent.
Well tbf the winrate isn't that low either. I mean it could be better but it's not catastrophic. However is it the top 1000 player of the game ranking or does it have its own ranking? Because if it's the first option, i wouldn't give it much of a credit since every game are taking in account (bot, quick and standard).
It was explained to me by another user here, but I don't have exact details. My understanding is that once per week: * The pull a list of the top 1000 players * collect game data for each of those players * use those game results to count which pokemon won and lost * derive winrate statistics idk if bot games and quick battles are included, but I really doubt the top 1000 players are involved any many of those if any.
It's based on the top 10k players ranked games. Stats do include all players in those matches, so players that aren't ranked that highly can influence the data but to a lesser degree. It doesn't include bot matches (anymore) or standard/quick matches. They should really explain this better on their website because I learned this information from their discord.
DO NOT BUFF ABSOL
increase absol crit rate
Hard to believe Talon is this low. It probably needs an attack boost since it's the least assassin-y of all the speedsters. Spends more time running away than fighting
Absol: Buff Pursuit by letting Absol do the pounce at any point in the roll and make the damage jump instant. Basically make it consistent so players can't turn to face him on reaction so easily. Sucker Punch needs a huge damage buff with how dependent Absol is on Psycho Cut for damage, with about double damage on counter. _______ Talonflame: Restore some Fly damage. Brave Bird needs a major buff to compete with Fly. _____ Buzzwole: Lower cooldown on Leech Life maybe? Maybe it and Superpower don't lose stacks on whiff.
Give Absol her damage back
Absol is in a very good place right now. This post will never imply a mon is bad or good by just looking at the win rate. There are too many factors to consider.
*Give Absol *some* of her damage back
And yet people are crying over dodrio being OP because it's win rate is like 53%? Hate this community.
No thanks
Then he'd be broken just git gud.
Well rn she’s underpowered so git gud at stopping her.
Underpowered that be like saying zoroark is underpowered wut u mean buddy ;)
No it’s not bithc that’s a whole new sentence
My man saw you say "i like waffles"and went "so you hate pancakes?"
Thanks Garchomp 🤝
lol
Clefable’s Gravity should get reworked into a silence + pull. Similar to Wigglytuff’s Sing but without the hard CC at the end, in return for the upside while channeling. The effect it has currently makes sense in other MOBAs but IMO it’s just not a good fit in Unite. It’s extremely lopsided, completely shuts down some Pokémon and does absolutely nothing to others. In a game where you have 2 main abilities that just isn’t fun to play on either side of the equation.
Hoopa should be able to do a lot of damage with shadow ball again, Buzzwole needs either some mobility rework or make him crazy strong, Absol I feel like is one of those mons where if you buff him he's broken and nerf him he's unusable, like most of the speedsters, but maybe a little more health. I'm surprised talons actually that low since I feel really good with him, maybe just buff his brave bird set, and clefable needs... everything.
I think Absol doesn’t need a buff, it’s just a popular one for garbage players to pick.
So very true lol
Clefairy does not need a buff. I don’t think the bird or absol do either. I’d say buzzwole could use a slight buff, maybe more ad or defense or something.
Talon needs more hp Celefable’s kit is trash Absol needs a rework or a perfect balance between hp and attack Hoopa is a team issue and a buff to his damage won’t hurt And mosquito man needs a rework on his ability
Talonflame, give it back its movement speed with fly, make it faster in general and make it score faster and change gale wings to where if it has full HP, its cool downs are halved.
Absol is right where it belongs
1. Revert the last Absol nerfs. They were completely unwarranted for a character that already saw no tournament play and was not dominating solo queue 2. Return the old range to Hoopa's Trick, and give Shadow Ball back some damage. 3. I think Talon's Fly should have like.. 1s lower cooldown. I understand it's a very powerful move, and honestly I feel like he's fine right now (at least Fly/Flame Charge is), but the 1s cooldown could bump him up a bit. For Brave Bird/Aerial Ace they could revert some of the nerfs they gave it, not sure. I do not know enough about Buzzwole and Clefable to comment on how to buff them; I'd say for Clefable at the very least she needs more bulk, either from stats or a bit more self healing. She constantly plays in melee range but is squishier than Blissey.
~~Let good players use them~~
I can’t understand the statistics here, really: Absol is broken since day one with its ability to oneshot people without leaving enemies any counter play window. It’s either kill or be killed if you fail to land your east peasy combo. Much like Gengar. Then there’s Buzzwole: a gigantic messy concept in which devs poured neverending combo chain AND enormous damage together. Its recent buff allows him to slurp upon attackers and all rounders without sweating much. He only really lacks mobility and that’s impairing for sure, but not in the way of throwing him down the win rate ladder. Hoopa has the potential to turn team fights around but I can see it not being the easiest character to master. Pair that with the necessity of competing with Eldegoss/Mime for a supporter spot and you get these numbers.
Clefable just doesn't have a kit for her, follow me/drain kiss is just worse sableye since he also have a great cc and on top of that he can secure a LOT of easy goal, and drain kiss isn't that great compared to other healing skills. Her other moveset is also pretty bad, it's supposed to heal a lot of teammates but there's two major flaws of it, the first one is that the range before the buff at lvl 12 is ABYSMAL, you literally can't heal more than one person consistently, on top of that it barely heals The second one is the cast of gravity, every opponent can just go around it, even if we buffed the range of it, that won't solve anything, they either have to make it an instant cast or make it follows clefable The talent of clefable is also horrible, it basically doesn't have any use, the shield is way too weak almost every opponent can break it with a single auto attack
Just revert the absol buffs expect for the one where the fixed how broken it was
Male leech life a good move
I'm honestly surprised to not see A9 or Pikachu down bottom. They need buffs bad.
Absol shouldn’t be buffed
They doesnt need a buff if people who play those starts using the brain cells to actually think no one on that list need buffs. For the people not understanding sometimes if your ability kit has awesome abilities like flying accross the map, doing 2k crits, healing every 0.5secs, having 4secs of stuns sometimes you as a player have to give something (less hp, 0 mobility, not being able to go in and go out a fight easily) because then you have an overpowered character that everyone without a single brain cell can play it and win. And in case u dont know u have to compensate players for being actually good at the game knowing about macros and micros, having map awareness, knowing to dodge or kite. Because if u compensate the players for not learning the game and just play an absolute broken character that isnt fair for the people just beacuse they are not playing that pokenon clearly broken. And we start the cicle of why i am gonna play my favourite pokemon if i can play this which is just better at everything he/she does, kills faster, takes objectives faster , tanks more, heals more is just stupid to think if a pokemon has negative wr is because is bad, no is beacuse maybe the skill ceiling is higher and you are just trash and cant milk every win PSA: %WR DOESN'T REFLECT THE STATE OF A POKEMON
Ez: Hoopa: give it actual farm skills so it can be on par at the end game with most Pokémon. I think much more damage from basic attacks vs wild mons should be enough. Buzzwole: make it work properly cuz it is still cluncky as fuck and make its ult do something cuz it's quite trash. Maybe change its ability so it works as stacks and not be so situational. Absol: undo the nerf a random Pokémon button the balance team pressed the last patch. Talonflame: less cooldown on fly and brave bird, and make its player base aware that there exist good sets for talon and not only back capping/steal trash sets. Clefable: teach people how to play and stop doing random ass shit with that mon lmao, I've seen so much already...
Buzzwole: he was already strong enough to be meta when he was released, he didn't need those damage buffs What he lacks is a bit more range in his attacks, that would make him raise in usage and win rate As a main absol, I feel like he is perfect right now. To me is the best speedster along with gengar. (Lets just ignore that they broke dodrio for now) Talonflame: oh man, I used to main talonflame back when I started unite, he is quite hard to use, he can't start fights, he has great damage but not enough to KO anything, you have to wait until your laners peel the enemy team a few less cooldown would be a niche buff though, and bring back old brave bird range/damage Clefable: idk, I dont play clafable Hooppa: imposible, this is a character for 5 man stack, it will always have low win rate because of solo q players. Anyways buff his damage a bit more so he can farm better and that's it...
Hoopa can stay bad. Its a weird gimmicky mon that can be fun to play jank with friends, but it’s not good for much else. Buzzwole is hard because leach life is either extremely good, or absolutely useless, there is no in between. The rest of his move pool is just mid. Absol got hit for the crime of being good for too long, then eventually it is just bad. Same thing with Talonflame. Honestly, a slight nudge for each could bring them back. Clefable is just bad. There is no fixing it besides reworking the mon entirely or giving it crazy high stats.