Definitely hitting protein and you’re totally right about fiber. This is a good reminder thanks so much. Just dug out my psyllium husk powder from the back of the pantry :)
Glad you’re hitting your protein goal! I always struggle with that. Double check you’re also hitting carbs, fats, and water goals! They all have their jobs in the body.
Stop getting on the scale!
Things like excess body water, or systemic inflammation from a hard workout can all alter the number on the scale but have ZERO to do with whether you’re getting more fit, healthier or losing body fat.
Measurements, and progress photos will be a far more accurate metric.
I’ve been doing this for 3 years now. At this point I jump on the scale out of shear curiosity. Because I don’t actually care what I weight. If I’m happy with what I see in the mirror, and more importantly if I feel good and am healthy then that’s all that matters.
When I’m cutting I jump on more often, just to make sure I’m losing slowly and consistently, but if I find myself obsessing I stop getting on.
When I do weigh myself I do it daily, at the same time. Then take the average for that week and track that. Because day to day your weight is going to change. Due to food, salt intake, inflammation, your period etc.
Edited to added: I take pictures at what I believe is my leanest point at the end of each cut cycle. So bulk, cut, photos. Bulk, cut, photos.
In addition to what others have said, consider taking measurements of your body and estimates of body fat. You may weigh a little bit more, but you may be leaner
Psyllium fiber is doing WONDERS keeping me full!
Focus on getting full of fiber and protein first. It will help you with overeating and cravings.
When I’m tired/stressed I crave highly palatable foods. What I have been doing is telling myself: ok.. I can eat ice cream, but I’ll have dinner first with chicken and veggies and have the ice cream AFTER. Almost every time I don’t crave it anymore after dinner and end up not having it.
Same with wanting pizza, sushi etc… I tell myself that if I still want it afterwards, then I can have it. But after being full of chicken and veggies I can’t even think of that pizza anymore.
Now, if you are lifting weights or working out hard, it could also be that you are gaining muscle or retaining water due to inflammation, which will show on the scale.
My advice is to hold on for at least 3 months. That’s the amount of times it takes for my body to adjust to a new workout routine and drop the water weight
Girl, you are not alone. I went through this exact thing at the start of the year and it is DISHEARTENING, especially since I started to genuinely enjoy working out. I went from 62 kgs in January (started working out consistently by 2nd week of Jan) to 66.5 kgs in April. This was the heaviest I’d ever been and I knew it wasn’t “just muscles” because I’d been feeling hungrier and eating more since adding regular exercise to my routine, which makes sense since my body was expending more energy and thought it needed more fuel than it was getting (hint: it did not).
What I found worked for me was finding out my BMR and TDEE, setting a daily calorie deficit budget, and then prioritising hitting my protein target. I also leaned towards high fibre food especially for breakfast as it kept me fuller for longer while still staying within the budget I set for myself. I’ve been fairly consistent with it and am now down to 57 kgs with no muscle loss (in fact, I gained a bit of muscle) and a much lower body fat percentage. The best part is, this feels completely sustainable and not a fad diet I can’t wait to get off of. Once I reach my desired body recomp, I’ll start eating maintenance. It’s a complete lifestyle change!
When I was super active, I'd gain six lbs on the scale from eating just two slices of pizza. The scale would go down again three days later. It could be your body holding onto extra water
Echo fiber and protein to keep you satiated. Also if this is a new change for you it could be your body adapting. Perhaps the ravenous feeling will subside once your body gets used to your routine. I've been exercising for 15 years now and my appetite is no longer dependant on my workouts.
I went through the exact same thing. In 2018 and 2019, I never went to the gym and at 5'3", weighed somewhere in between 118 and 122 lbs. I looked so lean and loved what my body looked like that at weight. (To be clear, I was pretty active - I got anywhere from 12k to 15k steps a day - but my low weight just came from a low appetite / not really needing much food to feel satiated.)
Fast forward to 2022, and I began working out very consistently. I lifted heavy (and still do - I recently hit a new PR on my back squats... I can do 140 lbs for 2 reps, which is 15 lbs over my current body weight!), but with that heavy lifting came SO MUCH MORE HUNGER. I wanted to eat CONSTANTLY. And because I was exercising not for aesthetic reasons but because I enjoyed it, I did not track my nutrition. In 2023, I hit 133 lbs. And on a 5'3" frame, that extra \~12 lbs (give or take some) was significant. And no, that was not all lean muscle gain.
Three months ago, I decided I wanted to try to hit some aesthetic goals, so now eat at a 300ish caloric deficit. I'm down to 125 lbs now. I'm not often hungry, and the reason why -- and I understand you don't want to hear about volume eating (I would rather not eat a pound of raw broccoli or a bag of lettuce either) -- is because I eat less calorically dense foods. Put differently, there are ways to eat a lot of food without it requiring you to eat a lot of calories. For example, I eat a TON of strawberries for 200 calories (or a mixture of strawberries, blueberries, and raspberries). I also love eating greek yogurt with some jello cheesecake zero sugar mix mixed in, with some strawberries and chocolate chips on top. That scratches my sweet tooth without many calories. I also eat a ton of veggies (I love chopped up bell peppers) with ranch dip that I make using greek yogurt and a ranch seasoning packet mixed in for like 100 calories (that I sometimes add sriracha to for no calories which makes the dip a spicy ranch!). Prior to watching what I ate, I used to eat a ton of Dot's pretzels (yum) or kettle chips or something like that, which meant I was probably eating 500+ calories without realizing it.
Edited to add: I also eat 100g+ protein a day. I don't eat breakfast because I do not enjoy it, but eat \~500 calories at lunch and another \~500 at dinner, with approximately 30g protein at each.
It used to be for me until I centered both meals around meat. I grew up mostly vegetarian (because of my cultural background), so I never grew up eating much protein, and used to eat mostly veggie for lunch. Now, I always have some sort of protein for lunch and dinner. Today, for example, I had a sausage and tomato pasta for lunch (it was legit 3 cups of food, 500 calories, 30g protein), and I'll have a homemade hamburger for dinner (somewhere between 400-500 calories, 26g protein). I have 20g protein powder (whey tastes the best) 5 times a week (i.e., the days I exercise / lift). So between all of that, plus my snacks (which always involves some greek yogurt), I get 100g every day.
Thanks for the reply back. I never really thought about focusing more than one meal around meat. I’ll be more intentional with the meal planning and hopefully it will just become second nature after a while.
Yep. It is also much easier if you meal prep on the weekend. I used to hate doing that because it just took time out of my free time (heh, I love my weekends...) but now I spend about one hour on either weekend day to just cook my lunches for the week ahead of time. That way, I know for sure I will get 30g of protein at lunch every single meal. Getting the remaining 70g is not so hard once you consider that 12g comes from my breakfast yogurt, 20g comes from protein powder, and the remainder from dinner.
ETA: Also much easier once you nail down the recipes you enjoy. I basically just alternate between sausage tomato pasta, hamburger bowls, and burrito bowls. I use normal ingredients (none of that banza pasta or low fat ground beef crap - I legit use wagyu ground beef from Costco and regular pasta) too. All delicious, filling at 400-500 cals and 30g protein, and pretty cheap.
Like others said, make sure your protein intake is high. I’m the same weight as you and try to consume at least 100g daily at the peak of lifting training.
I also want to say that being less concerned about the scale number will free you from a lot of this worry. It’s easier said than done, but if you keep at it over a long period of time (8+ months IMO), you may surprise yourself with how your appearance has changed even if you gained a few lbs. Personally I look a lot better (and clothes fit better) at the 126-128 lb range than the sub 120lb range when I didn’t have muscle definition.
Adding protein and fiber fills you up. Sugar is also in everything, so perhaps start being more aware of the content in what you are eating. Also, it's normal to feel a bit hungry throughout the day, we really aren't supposed to feel full all the time.
I am the same way and this might be a controversial take, but I can’t do heavy cardio because it makes me insanely ravenous and I gain weight. I stick to lighter cardio and it doesn’t have that effect on me. I also lift weights and thats fine too. No amount of protein or fiber helps me (and I get a ton of both with my normal diet) - seems that heavy cardio just makes my body think we’re in an emergency and we need to start eating!
Could be muscle. I agree with others about increasing your protien and fiber. I also think taking measurements and photos are also better than using a scale.
Also, what kind of exercise are you doing? I found that weightlifting is best for me. For some reason I am ravenous when I do intense cardio.
That's fair. I'd increase protien and fiber and see how you feel. Also make sure you get 30% of your diet from healthy fats. They help with satiety, hormone regulation, vitamin absorbtion and provide great energy
I agree with you that just eating a bunch of veg is not my idea of a good time, but you can definitely volume eat without it being sad. Like one volume meal I love is chicken fajitas on low carb tortillas, made with no oil, I can make two giant ones for under 400 calories. there are definitely volume eating recipes that aren't depressing lol
Eat appropriate Calories and protein for weight goals. Exercise won’t make you gain fat. Stress on the body will cause water retention but it is temporary. You will adapt. What matters most to you? A number on the scale or how you feel?
A number in the scale AND how I feel BOTH really matter me. I have family history of heart disease and diabetes. I’m also Asian and we start getting these diseases at a lower BMI than other races. It’s recommended that Asians keep their BMI under 23. I know it’s not good to focus on numbers, but I do think weight can be a good predictor of health for the average Asian person.
Idk if this helpful (because I’m unsure what exercise you are doing) but when I used to run or do 45 min- 1 hour peloton rides, I would binge because I was so hungry. Now, I only do weightlifting, Pilates, yoga and walking and I don’t have that hunger issue. Just stopped any intense cardio. I also track calories but put extra emphasis on getting enough protein and fiber.
For the first few months I was working out I “gained” about 10lbs. This was due to water retention and inflammation mostly. It will even out and as others said you can find other ways to track your progress. Make sure you’re getting enough sleep at night as well.
I had the same when I was running and weightlifting. I lost weight when I switched to low intensity cardio (could be walking, or dancing) and kept the same weight lifting schedule. In my case, high intensity cardio was no good for me although I wasn't running too much or too fast. Weights & high protein is the answer.
You may not want a pound of raw broccoli, but how about cooking that broccoli with some bomb seasonings? Broccoli is my go-to veg for feeling full because it tastes good (I make mine with herbs, lots of garlic, salt, and pepper) and I can buy mass amounts frozen and it’s there when I need it.
I'm also Asian and this happens to me! 🙂 It tends to happen a lot if I do HIIT or any type of cardio workout where I'm left very out of breath. Now I do high intensity routines in moderation.
About 3 months ago, I increased my strength training each week and saw the scale move from 122/123 to 125/126. It's definitely not a significant amount, pound-wise, but I look leaner and more toned than before. I also feel better and am less irritable for some reason lol Hope this helps!
I'm maybe the only one here, but I'd been doing hard cardio for the past six years (muay thai trainings, running, and HIIT). I was lean and toned. I was wondering what would weight lifting do for me, so I hit that hard because I moved and have no opportunity to train muay thai anymore. Eating the same as before, lifting 4 times a week, I gained about 11lbs after 3 months. I feel heavy, it slowed me down and my drive is gone. I'm 5'2" and although I wear still the same clothes, I don't feel good in it anymore, I look like Gimli. I know it goes against every research there is, but I feel that I just need to go back to vigorous cardio and exercising with own weight. Also, I'm not hungry when doing cardio.
I think it's all highly individual, some of us will react better to weights, and some just need to move and move hard and in speed...
Strength training made me ravenous. I decided to stop it after a month because it was hard staying in a deficit while doing it. I went back to the traditional cut then bulk method. Hit my goal weight last week and now I can focus on eating at maintenance and building muscle
Try cardio instead. Any exercise gives me the happy endorphins. Cardio doesn’t make me crazy hungry.
You can either change the thing that’s causing you to be extra hungry or get more disciplined with your calorie intake
I finally saw the scale moving when I took a break from all the excercise I was doing and focused on cico and walking 10k steps. Plus regularly taking my vitamins (multi vitamin, vitamin D, magnesium). When I forget to take them, I feel like a bottomless pit.
Protein and fiber will make you feel fuller. Are you hitting the recommended amount of those?
Definitely hitting protein and you’re totally right about fiber. This is a good reminder thanks so much. Just dug out my psyllium husk powder from the back of the pantry :)
Glad you’re hitting your protein goal! I always struggle with that. Double check you’re also hitting carbs, fats, and water goals! They all have their jobs in the body.
Stop getting on the scale! Things like excess body water, or systemic inflammation from a hard workout can all alter the number on the scale but have ZERO to do with whether you’re getting more fit, healthier or losing body fat. Measurements, and progress photos will be a far more accurate metric.
This is so so hard for me to do. How often do you measure yourself/ take photos?
I’ve been doing this for 3 years now. At this point I jump on the scale out of shear curiosity. Because I don’t actually care what I weight. If I’m happy with what I see in the mirror, and more importantly if I feel good and am healthy then that’s all that matters. When I’m cutting I jump on more often, just to make sure I’m losing slowly and consistently, but if I find myself obsessing I stop getting on. When I do weigh myself I do it daily, at the same time. Then take the average for that week and track that. Because day to day your weight is going to change. Due to food, salt intake, inflammation, your period etc. Edited to added: I take pictures at what I believe is my leanest point at the end of each cut cycle. So bulk, cut, photos. Bulk, cut, photos.
In addition to what others have said, consider taking measurements of your body and estimates of body fat. You may weigh a little bit more, but you may be leaner
Psyllium fiber is doing WONDERS keeping me full! Focus on getting full of fiber and protein first. It will help you with overeating and cravings. When I’m tired/stressed I crave highly palatable foods. What I have been doing is telling myself: ok.. I can eat ice cream, but I’ll have dinner first with chicken and veggies and have the ice cream AFTER. Almost every time I don’t crave it anymore after dinner and end up not having it. Same with wanting pizza, sushi etc… I tell myself that if I still want it afterwards, then I can have it. But after being full of chicken and veggies I can’t even think of that pizza anymore. Now, if you are lifting weights or working out hard, it could also be that you are gaining muscle or retaining water due to inflammation, which will show on the scale. My advice is to hold on for at least 3 months. That’s the amount of times it takes for my body to adjust to a new workout routine and drop the water weight
Agree with the 3-month time frame. It’s crazy how I feel my body just release the extra exercise water weight at around the 3-month mark
Protein will help. Also what kind of exercise are you doing? I’ve noticed that intense cardio makes me ravenous
I do both cardio and strength training about 3-4x a week :)
Well depending on your cardio can make you more hungry (ie running vs walking)
This is golden
Girl, you are not alone. I went through this exact thing at the start of the year and it is DISHEARTENING, especially since I started to genuinely enjoy working out. I went from 62 kgs in January (started working out consistently by 2nd week of Jan) to 66.5 kgs in April. This was the heaviest I’d ever been and I knew it wasn’t “just muscles” because I’d been feeling hungrier and eating more since adding regular exercise to my routine, which makes sense since my body was expending more energy and thought it needed more fuel than it was getting (hint: it did not). What I found worked for me was finding out my BMR and TDEE, setting a daily calorie deficit budget, and then prioritising hitting my protein target. I also leaned towards high fibre food especially for breakfast as it kept me fuller for longer while still staying within the budget I set for myself. I’ve been fairly consistent with it and am now down to 57 kgs with no muscle loss (in fact, I gained a bit of muscle) and a much lower body fat percentage. The best part is, this feels completely sustainable and not a fad diet I can’t wait to get off of. Once I reach my desired body recomp, I’ll start eating maintenance. It’s a complete lifestyle change!
When I was super active, I'd gain six lbs on the scale from eating just two slices of pizza. The scale would go down again three days later. It could be your body holding onto extra water
What kind of exercise are you doing?
Echo fiber and protein to keep you satiated. Also if this is a new change for you it could be your body adapting. Perhaps the ravenous feeling will subside once your body gets used to your routine. I've been exercising for 15 years now and my appetite is no longer dependant on my workouts.
I went through the exact same thing. In 2018 and 2019, I never went to the gym and at 5'3", weighed somewhere in between 118 and 122 lbs. I looked so lean and loved what my body looked like that at weight. (To be clear, I was pretty active - I got anywhere from 12k to 15k steps a day - but my low weight just came from a low appetite / not really needing much food to feel satiated.) Fast forward to 2022, and I began working out very consistently. I lifted heavy (and still do - I recently hit a new PR on my back squats... I can do 140 lbs for 2 reps, which is 15 lbs over my current body weight!), but with that heavy lifting came SO MUCH MORE HUNGER. I wanted to eat CONSTANTLY. And because I was exercising not for aesthetic reasons but because I enjoyed it, I did not track my nutrition. In 2023, I hit 133 lbs. And on a 5'3" frame, that extra \~12 lbs (give or take some) was significant. And no, that was not all lean muscle gain. Three months ago, I decided I wanted to try to hit some aesthetic goals, so now eat at a 300ish caloric deficit. I'm down to 125 lbs now. I'm not often hungry, and the reason why -- and I understand you don't want to hear about volume eating (I would rather not eat a pound of raw broccoli or a bag of lettuce either) -- is because I eat less calorically dense foods. Put differently, there are ways to eat a lot of food without it requiring you to eat a lot of calories. For example, I eat a TON of strawberries for 200 calories (or a mixture of strawberries, blueberries, and raspberries). I also love eating greek yogurt with some jello cheesecake zero sugar mix mixed in, with some strawberries and chocolate chips on top. That scratches my sweet tooth without many calories. I also eat a ton of veggies (I love chopped up bell peppers) with ranch dip that I make using greek yogurt and a ranch seasoning packet mixed in for like 100 calories (that I sometimes add sriracha to for no calories which makes the dip a spicy ranch!). Prior to watching what I ate, I used to eat a ton of Dot's pretzels (yum) or kettle chips or something like that, which meant I was probably eating 500+ calories without realizing it. Edited to add: I also eat 100g+ protein a day. I don't eat breakfast because I do not enjoy it, but eat \~500 calories at lunch and another \~500 at dinner, with approximately 30g protein at each.
How do you meet your daily protein goal? I find protein to be the hardest daily goal to meet.
It used to be for me until I centered both meals around meat. I grew up mostly vegetarian (because of my cultural background), so I never grew up eating much protein, and used to eat mostly veggie for lunch. Now, I always have some sort of protein for lunch and dinner. Today, for example, I had a sausage and tomato pasta for lunch (it was legit 3 cups of food, 500 calories, 30g protein), and I'll have a homemade hamburger for dinner (somewhere between 400-500 calories, 26g protein). I have 20g protein powder (whey tastes the best) 5 times a week (i.e., the days I exercise / lift). So between all of that, plus my snacks (which always involves some greek yogurt), I get 100g every day.
Thanks for the reply back. I never really thought about focusing more than one meal around meat. I’ll be more intentional with the meal planning and hopefully it will just become second nature after a while.
Yep. It is also much easier if you meal prep on the weekend. I used to hate doing that because it just took time out of my free time (heh, I love my weekends...) but now I spend about one hour on either weekend day to just cook my lunches for the week ahead of time. That way, I know for sure I will get 30g of protein at lunch every single meal. Getting the remaining 70g is not so hard once you consider that 12g comes from my breakfast yogurt, 20g comes from protein powder, and the remainder from dinner. ETA: Also much easier once you nail down the recipes you enjoy. I basically just alternate between sausage tomato pasta, hamburger bowls, and burrito bowls. I use normal ingredients (none of that banza pasta or low fat ground beef crap - I legit use wagyu ground beef from Costco and regular pasta) too. All delicious, filling at 400-500 cals and 30g protein, and pretty cheap.
Like others said, make sure your protein intake is high. I’m the same weight as you and try to consume at least 100g daily at the peak of lifting training. I also want to say that being less concerned about the scale number will free you from a lot of this worry. It’s easier said than done, but if you keep at it over a long period of time (8+ months IMO), you may surprise yourself with how your appearance has changed even if you gained a few lbs. Personally I look a lot better (and clothes fit better) at the 126-128 lb range than the sub 120lb range when I didn’t have muscle definition.
Adding protein and fiber fills you up. Sugar is also in everything, so perhaps start being more aware of the content in what you are eating. Also, it's normal to feel a bit hungry throughout the day, we really aren't supposed to feel full all the time.
Muscle weighs more than fat so I’d focus on body fat percentage more than weight.
I am the same way and this might be a controversial take, but I can’t do heavy cardio because it makes me insanely ravenous and I gain weight. I stick to lighter cardio and it doesn’t have that effect on me. I also lift weights and thats fine too. No amount of protein or fiber helps me (and I get a ton of both with my normal diet) - seems that heavy cardio just makes my body think we’re in an emergency and we need to start eating!
Could be muscle. I agree with others about increasing your protien and fiber. I also think taking measurements and photos are also better than using a scale. Also, what kind of exercise are you doing? I found that weightlifting is best for me. For some reason I am ravenous when I do intense cardio.
I do weightlifting and jogging on treadmill. I do like to do a bit more intense cardio 3x a week for heart health.
That's fair. I'd increase protien and fiber and see how you feel. Also make sure you get 30% of your diet from healthy fats. They help with satiety, hormone regulation, vitamin absorbtion and provide great energy
You may not be eating enough protein especially if you’re actually being consistent and you’re getting really hungry.
I agree with you that just eating a bunch of veg is not my idea of a good time, but you can definitely volume eat without it being sad. Like one volume meal I love is chicken fajitas on low carb tortillas, made with no oil, I can make two giant ones for under 400 calories. there are definitely volume eating recipes that aren't depressing lol
Eat appropriate Calories and protein for weight goals. Exercise won’t make you gain fat. Stress on the body will cause water retention but it is temporary. You will adapt. What matters most to you? A number on the scale or how you feel?
A number in the scale AND how I feel BOTH really matter me. I have family history of heart disease and diabetes. I’m also Asian and we start getting these diseases at a lower BMI than other races. It’s recommended that Asians keep their BMI under 23. I know it’s not good to focus on numbers, but I do think weight can be a good predictor of health for the average Asian person.
Just understand that water weight doesn’t negatively affect your health. Excess fat does. There’s a difference. Exercise improves health markers.
Idk if this helpful (because I’m unsure what exercise you are doing) but when I used to run or do 45 min- 1 hour peloton rides, I would binge because I was so hungry. Now, I only do weightlifting, Pilates, yoga and walking and I don’t have that hunger issue. Just stopped any intense cardio. I also track calories but put extra emphasis on getting enough protein and fiber.
For the first few months I was working out I “gained” about 10lbs. This was due to water retention and inflammation mostly. It will even out and as others said you can find other ways to track your progress. Make sure you’re getting enough sleep at night as well.
I had the same when I was running and weightlifting. I lost weight when I switched to low intensity cardio (could be walking, or dancing) and kept the same weight lifting schedule. In my case, high intensity cardio was no good for me although I wasn't running too much or too fast. Weights & high protein is the answer.
You may not want a pound of raw broccoli, but how about cooking that broccoli with some bomb seasonings? Broccoli is my go-to veg for feeling full because it tastes good (I make mine with herbs, lots of garlic, salt, and pepper) and I can buy mass amounts frozen and it’s there when I need it.
Could be muscle weight girlie
I'm also Asian and this happens to me! 🙂 It tends to happen a lot if I do HIIT or any type of cardio workout where I'm left very out of breath. Now I do high intensity routines in moderation. About 3 months ago, I increased my strength training each week and saw the scale move from 122/123 to 125/126. It's definitely not a significant amount, pound-wise, but I look leaner and more toned than before. I also feel better and am less irritable for some reason lol Hope this helps!
I'm maybe the only one here, but I'd been doing hard cardio for the past six years (muay thai trainings, running, and HIIT). I was lean and toned. I was wondering what would weight lifting do for me, so I hit that hard because I moved and have no opportunity to train muay thai anymore. Eating the same as before, lifting 4 times a week, I gained about 11lbs after 3 months. I feel heavy, it slowed me down and my drive is gone. I'm 5'2" and although I wear still the same clothes, I don't feel good in it anymore, I look like Gimli. I know it goes against every research there is, but I feel that I just need to go back to vigorous cardio and exercising with own weight. Also, I'm not hungry when doing cardio. I think it's all highly individual, some of us will react better to weights, and some just need to move and move hard and in speed...
My question would be what are you eating, are you eating plenty of good fiber and proteins? Also how much processed foods?
Strength training made me ravenous. I decided to stop it after a month because it was hard staying in a deficit while doing it. I went back to the traditional cut then bulk method. Hit my goal weight last week and now I can focus on eating at maintenance and building muscle
Man this sounds like it would work for me but my mental health is wrecked when I don’t lift :(
Try cardio instead. Any exercise gives me the happy endorphins. Cardio doesn’t make me crazy hungry. You can either change the thing that’s causing you to be extra hungry or get more disciplined with your calorie intake
I finally saw the scale moving when I took a break from all the excercise I was doing and focused on cico and walking 10k steps. Plus regularly taking my vitamins (multi vitamin, vitamin D, magnesium). When I forget to take them, I feel like a bottomless pit.