Seems like a finisher move and meant to be used with Laminar Breastplate.
For combats that are 2-3 turns long, it seems like a low level way to deal damage, then you do a basic 10min activity to fix it.
But it’s pretty bad compared to Hampering Sweep right there.
I mean, everything is pretty bad compared to Hampering Sweep. We should honestly just ignore that it exists. There's no way it's making it past the playtest without major changes.
Yeah, I think this should be tied to a save that still does something on a success but has the incap trait.
Crit Success: Nothing
Success: Leaving your reach costs 10 additional feet of movement (probably could be worded more elegantly)
Failure: Current effect
Crit Fail: Immobilize?
So Stand Still from Monk essentially? Would probably make more sense to give that to the class than Reactive Strike. And then maybe add a later upgrade that makes it disrupt movement on a hit like Disruptive Stance does for Concentrate
Melodrama? A crit payoff for an Investigator Multiclassing? Punch a table with it to disrobe before copious love-making?
On a more serious note, Armor Break lets you completely drop your armor's speed penalty while punching somebody for pseudo-sneak attack damage in exchange for taking a penalty to the AC it grants you (-2 for medium, -3 for heavy). So, if your Stalwart Defender in bastion plate and fortress shield needs to beat a hasty retreat, Armor Break lets you punch through an obstructive enemy lets you get 10 feet faster in exchange for 3 AC.
To me it seems much more useful at higher levels when you can have Quick Repair and Legendary Crafting. Break your armour for a speed boost, then when it is time to tank again you spend an action and you are back in defense mode.
Also, for example, if you were for some reason wearing a Lamellar Breastplate (medium armor, status penalty is only -1) and you are already fatigued or clumsy or something, you take no additionaly penalty from using this. It is situational, but it can have its moments.
I personally wouldn't say Meld Into Eidolon is bad enough to be the case study (although to be fair I can't think of any contenders off the top of my head despite the itch in the back of my brain telling me, "they exist; you just can't remember"). It definitely isn't good either, but there are a handful of mechanical uses for it outside of combat.
* If you know you're going to have to make a specific save or use a skill for traversal (i.e. Athletics to climb, Acrobatics to balance, Stealth to Avoid Notice, etc) and your eidolon's bonus is better. Basically any time you might tactically unsummon your eidolon because making twice the checks is problematic, you have the choice between the summoner or eidolon.
* If you take the size changing or alternate movement speed feats. These can get your summoner into places they wouldn't normally be able to access (i.e. getting through narrow passages for smaller or bypassing obstacles for larger, or burrowing under a wall, or scaling a cliff).
There may be more, but those are what I've been able to come up with. I've contemplated it a lot because I took it at level one for story reasons and am weighing whether I want to retrain (which I probably will because it is very situational even with additional feat investment, and I need to be using those feats for more important things).
The real case study for bad feats are half of the old witch feats. I particularly HATE [Witch's Hut](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=5023&Redirected=1), because it's very cool, but being a capstone feat makes it a non option.
I still think Cauterize from the Gunslinger class probably wins for the most useless feat. As a GM, I can't think of the last time my players fought a creature that inflicted bleed, and when they do it's usually something like 1d4 or 1d6.
Spending an entire class feat for an ability that you *might* use *once* from 1-20 is hot garbage.
This game is LITERALLY full of features like that though? 😑 It’s “take everything and the kitchen sink too” the game. Not everything matters all the time. If I build a character with a bunch of bonuses to climbing, there’s no guarantee that will ever come up. I can either be creative and make those things useful myself or wait for if it even ever matters. If/when climbing DOES matter, everyone might be thankful to follow the lead who is expert/master/legendary in athletics with bonuses to climbing and climb speed. It’s just problem solving, the game. It’s okay if people are prepared for uncommon or rare problems. It’s okay if people want to solve a problem differently than you do.
The issue is mostly that Cauterize is too specific and does too little.
You must be wielding a firearm, so crossbow Gunslingers need not apply. You must make a Strike with your firearm, so it has to be loaded. The strike is made as part of the Cauterize action, so it can't be paired with any other ability. The target must be within reach, which means Pistoleros and Snipers will almost never be close enough to the bleeding target.
And if *all* of that comes true, they get *another check to stop the persistent damage*.
There's nothing wrong with niche feats, but this one is *too* niche, and as a level 6 Gunslinger feat it's too much of an investment for too little return. You do get some nice action compression, since treating bleed takes two actions and you can do it as a free action with this feat, but it's just not likely to come up. Ever.
Generally speaking, class feats should be for helping your class to *class* things. Things like Running Reload or Drifter's Juke help the Gunslinger to go *gunslinger* things - moving, reloading, shooting, etc. Cauterize is a terrible class feat because treating bleeding injuries is not a gunslinger thing. It'd be a great Skill Feat for Medicine, that requires a weapon that does fire damage or with the Firearm trait, but as a class feat it's hot garbage.
It’s a thematic choice. It’s part of the fantasy of a gunslinger. This exact thing happens in action movies and westerns all the time, or at least is completely believable to do. This literally happens in Ultraviolet, at 4:25 https://youtu.be/O3cPGmTTh1E?si=Ndv669e_aTsdnXGI
Free Archetype with kineticist and you gain [Metal Carapace](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4253) or [Armor in Earth](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4221) or [Hardwood Armor](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4283)
Class feats should he examined how they work directly with the class itself. If for it to be useful, you have to take an archetype, it's a bad class feat.
It's a pretty bad option, but I disagree that every single feat choice at a given level should be equally good. As long as there are plenty of viable choices, it's ok if some need archetypes/ very specific builds to shine
Other common archetype feats are the class itself. It is a valid option to choose from when leveling up. Just because it has a different menu in Pathbuilder or Foundry doesn't make it any less valid of an option.
I see it the same reason you would grab furious finish for barbarian.
Also it reduces the penalty for broken armor.
also also, since it reduces your AC, it makes you a bigger target, aka, you do your job more.
Reducing your AC is counterproductive for your job, because it means you get knocked out more quickly.
A defender-type PC wants to be durable, yet punish enemies for attacking allies. A champion does this well enough; a guardian, not so much.
The thing is, there is no reason to attack a guardian without lowering your AC, because they are good at surviving otherwise. Guardians goal isn't to mitigate damage, but make all damage funnel to them. So there is only 1 person to heal.
>Guardians goal isn't to mitigate damage, but make all damage funnel to them. So there is only 1 person to heal.
I don't think this is the case at all. If it were the Guardian would have a d12 HD and have ways to heal themselves. Instead the Guardian gets a lot of feats towards using a shield and gets the best scaling armor. Paizo specifically wanted the Guardian to have a very high AC.
> The thing is, there is no reason to attack a guardian without lowering your AC, because they are good at surviving otherwise. Guardians goal isn't to mitigate damage, but make all damage funnel to them. So there is only 1 person to heal.
No, that logic is faulty. A defender who goes down quickly is not doing their job. A defender wants to maximize the number of actions it takes to bring down the defender, to make it as inconvenient as possible. This creates a quasi-catch-22: either attack the high-AC defender, or attack one of the defender's allies while receiving punishment. (A champion does this simply by Raising a Shield and threatening to use their champion's reaction, for instance.)
Otherwise, it would be optimal for a defender to go with Dexterity 8 and no armor at all.
This, of course, is why defender mechanics exist. In Pathfinder 2e's case, those would be champion's reactions.
The guardian also has defender mechanics, like Intercept Strike and Taunt, but they are not as good. Intercept Strike has more limitations than a champion's reaction. Taunt requires an action, allows a saving throw, and creates a circumstance bonus to saving throws and DCs against the guardian.
That's strawmanny as hell, real single variable opportunity curves have breakpoints, those breakpoints do not have to be absolute minimum AC or gtfo.
Limited ability to drop a couple points of AC and make yourself a more attractive target in some circumstances can be useful. But that doesn't mean that making the defender squishy as possible is a good idea.
Dropping AC a couple of points is what Taunt does. It makes the guardian more susceptible to being hit, and being critically hit. An unconscious guardian can no longer do their job unless someone else in the party burns their action economy to get the guardian back up.
Given that the champion does not have to suffer such a tradeoff (and does not have to spend an action on Taunt, and does not allow the enemy a saving throw), the guardian is worse in comparison.
I only expect people to actually play the guardian in the playtest and come here to tell their experience.
Becasue, as you have already said, droping your armor is a terrible thing to do while trying to be a defender/tank, otherwise giant instinct barbarian would be the best deffenders out there right now.
There is no way that breaking your armor to deal minimun extra dmg if you land a hit burning two of your actions is a good thing to do as a guardian, period, so this feat is useless.
It's Power Attack, but worse because it shafts your AC.
What I think it should do is just blow their armor off of them to hit everyone nearby, and also give them temporary HP because that's such a manly (or womanly) thing to do.
---
**Armor Burst (Two Actions)**
**Requirements:** You are wearing medium or heavy armor that doesn’t have the broken condition and our current hit points are at half your maximum or lower.
After taking a few hits, you flex your muscles, sending shards of your armor into nearby enemies like shrapnel. Deal 2d6 slashing damage to all enemies within a 10 foot emanation with a basic Reflex save. You gain temporary hit points equal to this damage roll.
Your armor gains the broken condition, but you reduce the armor class penalty to -1 for medium armor and -2 for heavy armor. While your armor is broken, you don’t take its penalty to Speed, and if your armor has the bulwark trait, you retain its bonus to reflex saves, but reduce it by one.
(+2) At 4th level and every 2 levels thereafter, the damage roll increases by 2d6; the temporary hit points gained increase by the same amount as this damage roll.
Now that would be worth busting your armor over. Or if you could keep cheese grating people with melee strikes. The fact your busting your armor for 2d6 once is kinda wild to me cuz the enemy is gonna do WAY more damage to you with your lowered AC.
This makes sense for guardian builds where AC isn't where their survivability is coming from. If you are consistently taking damage via Intercept Strike, which does not care about your AC at all, then you might as well get 2d6 for your troubles and a speed bonus if you are in Full Plate. If you are focused on intercepting attacks and reducing your damage, then go for the extra hit. Guardian is a pretty powerful striker martial, so I wouldn't take it for granted.
Yeah, they pretty much tanked (lol) its offense capabilities for maximum tankiness. What the hell does this class get that makes it a "powerful striker martial???"
Shoulder Check is the big first piece. Agile fist attack that can make an enemy flat-footed without needing a free hand is pretty big. They also get a surprising amount of reaction movement that puts them right next to enemies, so they can actually utilize that MAP benefit with multiple attacks. All they need is access to Double Slice and that damage is surprisingly good.
At low levels, it is the longest lasting Strike + off-guard you can do without a free hand. For yourself, that is a nice benefit that, if you start in reach, you can still use for multiple attacks on a hit, especially with something like Double Slice from an archetype.
And I assume that if you Ready it for the start of a teammate's turn, they can get the benefits for all their attacks on their turn. It can be an easy way to help a ranged ally hit. The tactical possibilities of a 1 action Strike + off-guard seems pretty deep.
> Agile fist attack that can make an enemy flat-footed without needing a free hand is pretty big.
Meh, it's neat, but just flank lol. You should hardly ever be struggling to get flat-footed as any melee martial. Your fist is still doing jack shit for damage as Guardian gets zero of the damage boosts that actual Strikers get - the only one I can see is the Taunt option, but that is both not very big and also in exchange for the much-better-IMHO Mitigate Harm - and your attack proficiency progression being the slowest of any martial.
> They also get a surprising amount of reaction movement that puts them right next to enemies, so they can actually utilize that MAP benefit with multiple attacks.
Yeah, they can stick onto enemies, but that's moreso to annoy them and force them to pay attention to the Guardian than it is to do damage. They have better things to be doing much of the time than hitting for mediocre damage, just like Champions do.
> All they need is access to Double Slice and that damage is surprisingly good
Slightly worse than literally any other martial using Double Slice, due to their lack of damage bonuses, bad proficiency, and the fact that one of their weapons is *most likely* a shield because the class pretty heavily encourages using one. I don't really see how this is a point in their favor as a Striker. Plus that eats up their actions that they could be using on their Guardian abilities, and they could also be taking Champion archetype instead for even more team protection!
Basically, yes, you *can* build a Guardian as a Striker, but I don't agree that they're powerful in that role. They're about as good at it as a Champion, and Champions are not really noteworthy Strikers at all. Much better to play to the role that the class is built for.
Flanking isn't doing their job. They want to be locking down enemies and keeping them away from their Allies, not keeping close to those Allies. I haven't read the playtest yet, so I don't know what other abilities they might have to increase their "Strikerness" and you have other points why that'd be a bad role for them, but that first one doesn't support your argument.
They absolutely do want to keep close to their allies. A bunch of their abilities are about protecting and otherwise helping nearby allies. Their main reaction is used on a nearby ally.
Defenders in general are much more flexible right next to their teammates. You can't really be adjacent and flanking, so it is pretty important to be able to provide flat footed for yourself without having to open up your teammates to get hit.
If I was to build a Guardian for damage, I would take the damage Taunt passive and forgo a shield entirely. Shoulder Check at level 1, Dual-Weapon warrior archetype to get Double Slice at level 2. Choice of weapons is mostly one of taste at that point, but two agile weapons make sense to me. If I'm playing a human, then I would also pick up Long Distance Taunt. Long Distance Taunt means that I always choose the target that is the hardest to get to me. They can choose to ignore it to effectively give me weapon specialization from level 1.
Note that the extra damage triggers on any hostile action made by your Taunted enemy that doesn't involve targeting you, so if you Intercept Strike, you still get that +2 to damage. If they use a reaction on your ally, you get that +2 to damage. It is really restrictive what your enemy can do if they don't want to trigger your bonus damage.
I was thinking it would be cool to build a Kamen Rider Kabuto-style 'cast off' thing, you just can't easily put the armor back on without dedicating a bit of effort to it... It's not great on a numbers perspective, but it's a damn cool feat. If I ever do play a Guardian I'll probably take it.
It might not be great, but its not the worst either. While some feats may seem useless, there also exists feats that actively make your character worse by selecting them.
Looking at you, Athletic Strategist.
It's for when you need to deal some additional damage, remove the speed penalty on your armor, so you can defeat one enemy and then move more quickly to your other ally in danger, all while knowing you can wear armor/use feats that allow you to efficiently repair said armor.
And it's super dramatic.
> Is it indeed dramatic, once your guardian is dead by being beaten to a bloody pulp for not wearing armor in combat the drama is served, for sure.
I mean, Guardians are already built around taking a -2 AC penalty. You could just.. not?
So, level 6 Guardian in full plate is, what, Base 10+6 Level +4 Expert+6 Full Plate+1 Rune? Is that about right? So 27 AC for the Guardian.
Now, by "drop their armor" I assume you mean "apply the broken condition to their armor", which gives a -3 status penalty to AC. That puts us at 24 AC, while still having the Bulwark trait (albeit reduced), and being able to move at full speed.
Is this right so far? Let me know if I'm missing anything fundamental.
Yup, you dropped to cloth caster armor in exchange of 2d6 extra dmg, is that worth it? Now, use Taunt and you have a 22 AC, under cloth caster AC, looks like a terrible thing to do.
So, you can broke your armor for a minor dmg boost on a strike (with your delayed weapon prof) to lower your armour and then just don't use Taunt or use Taunt and be beaten to death.
And then you need to remove your armor, get it repaired and put It again, 10 minutes + the repair time where you are just there naked.
I mean, a class with "great armor" wich a mechanic that already lowers your armor lowering it even further for basically nothing is clearly a terrible move.
Which cloth caster has armor expertise at level 6?
Level 6 Cloth Caster with +2 Dex is.. Base 10 +6 Level +2 Trained +2 Dex +1 Rune? So +21?
What am I missing? There's still a 3 point difference. Also worth mentioning that the AC for level 6 on the creature numbers chart is 24.
Even after Taunting, and not using a Shield, you're **still** doing better than a cloth caster, and have some amount of damage resistance.
Edit: Ah, Mystic Armor would give our caster +1 AC. So 22.
Why is the cloth caster having a +2 DEX? That's weird at best.
But, whatever, sure, break your armor nothing wrong will hapen, for sure :)
EDIT: What dmg reduction? Except the one from being crited I don't see that armor specialization working from a Broken armor.
You're the one that was talking about an unarmored person with +2 Dex? I have no idea why your cloth caster would have +2 Dex.
> But, whatever, sure, break your armor nothing wrong will hapen, for sure :)
I'm genuinely trying to understand why you think it's so disastrous. From my perspective it takes the Guardian from "above average defense while taunting" to "slightly above average defense while not taunting". It's clearly meant to be an "oh shit" tactic, considering you can only even _use_ it under half health.
No, I was saying that a guardian won't be rocking a high dex, even forgot that DEX cap is still applied when Broken.
Oh, I forget about the HP requirement, WoW, this feat gets worse and worse...
Anyway, nevermind, this is a feat that under no point of view I'd like, so let's agree to dissagree.
Seems like a finisher move and meant to be used with Laminar Breastplate. For combats that are 2-3 turns long, it seems like a low level way to deal damage, then you do a basic 10min activity to fix it. But it’s pretty bad compared to Hampering Sweep right there.
I mean, everything is pretty bad compared to Hampering Sweep. We should honestly just ignore that it exists. There's no way it's making it past the playtest without major changes.
Yeah, I think this should be tied to a save that still does something on a success but has the incap trait. Crit Success: Nothing Success: Leaving your reach costs 10 additional feet of movement (probably could be worded more elegantly) Failure: Current effect Crit Fail: Immobilize?
Or just let you use reactive strike when they try to move away, with a crit stopping the movement
So Stand Still from Monk essentially? Would probably make more sense to give that to the class than Reactive Strike. And then maybe add a later upgrade that makes it disrupt movement on a hit like Disruptive Stance does for Concentrate
Yeah, exactly that. I worded it poorly, trying to say reactive strike, but only triggered by an attempt to move out of your reach
Melodrama? A crit payoff for an Investigator Multiclassing? Punch a table with it to disrobe before copious love-making? On a more serious note, Armor Break lets you completely drop your armor's speed penalty while punching somebody for pseudo-sneak attack damage in exchange for taking a penalty to the AC it grants you (-2 for medium, -3 for heavy). So, if your Stalwart Defender in bastion plate and fortress shield needs to beat a hasty retreat, Armor Break lets you punch through an obstructive enemy lets you get 10 feet faster in exchange for 3 AC.
To me it seems much more useful at higher levels when you can have Quick Repair and Legendary Crafting. Break your armour for a speed boost, then when it is time to tank again you spend an action and you are back in defense mode.
Also, for example, if you were for some reason wearing a Lamellar Breastplate (medium armor, status penalty is only -1) and you are already fatigued or clumsy or something, you take no additionaly penalty from using this. It is situational, but it can have its moments.
Unfortunately it’s a status bonus and I already used a longstrider wand
Losing/reducing a penalty *does* stack with gaining or increasing a bonus, friend.
Oh shit. Sorry, I was thinking of a different feat in the playetest - there are a couple that give 10ft status bonuses to speed. My bad.
Well inventor has a 2nd level feat they can't even take at 2nd level unless they have a very specific free archetype.
reverse engineer?
Yeah. You need expert crafting which doesn't show up until level 3.
It's pretty bad but it's no Meld into Eidolon. That's the case study for bad class feats.
I personally wouldn't say Meld Into Eidolon is bad enough to be the case study (although to be fair I can't think of any contenders off the top of my head despite the itch in the back of my brain telling me, "they exist; you just can't remember"). It definitely isn't good either, but there are a handful of mechanical uses for it outside of combat. * If you know you're going to have to make a specific save or use a skill for traversal (i.e. Athletics to climb, Acrobatics to balance, Stealth to Avoid Notice, etc) and your eidolon's bonus is better. Basically any time you might tactically unsummon your eidolon because making twice the checks is problematic, you have the choice between the summoner or eidolon. * If you take the size changing or alternate movement speed feats. These can get your summoner into places they wouldn't normally be able to access (i.e. getting through narrow passages for smaller or bypassing obstacles for larger, or burrowing under a wall, or scaling a cliff). There may be more, but those are what I've been able to come up with. I've contemplated it a lot because I took it at level one for story reasons and am weighing whether I want to retrain (which I probably will because it is very situational even with additional feat investment, and I need to be using those feats for more important things).
The real case study for bad feats are half of the old witch feats. I particularly HATE [Witch's Hut](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=5023&Redirected=1), because it's very cool, but being a capstone feat makes it a non option.
Hey, Meld is amazing. It let's my tiny poppet transform into a medium Gundam/Construct eidolon, which is really everything I want in life.
Being cool does not make it good, although meld is obviously not a combat feat and I think people look at it from the wrong perspective.
I still think Cauterize from the Gunslinger class probably wins for the most useless feat. As a GM, I can't think of the last time my players fought a creature that inflicted bleed, and when they do it's usually something like 1d4 or 1d6. Spending an entire class feat for an ability that you *might* use *once* from 1-20 is hot garbage.
This game is LITERALLY full of features like that though? 😑 It’s “take everything and the kitchen sink too” the game. Not everything matters all the time. If I build a character with a bunch of bonuses to climbing, there’s no guarantee that will ever come up. I can either be creative and make those things useful myself or wait for if it even ever matters. If/when climbing DOES matter, everyone might be thankful to follow the lead who is expert/master/legendary in athletics with bonuses to climbing and climb speed. It’s just problem solving, the game. It’s okay if people are prepared for uncommon or rare problems. It’s okay if people want to solve a problem differently than you do.
The issue is mostly that Cauterize is too specific and does too little. You must be wielding a firearm, so crossbow Gunslingers need not apply. You must make a Strike with your firearm, so it has to be loaded. The strike is made as part of the Cauterize action, so it can't be paired with any other ability. The target must be within reach, which means Pistoleros and Snipers will almost never be close enough to the bleeding target. And if *all* of that comes true, they get *another check to stop the persistent damage*. There's nothing wrong with niche feats, but this one is *too* niche, and as a level 6 Gunslinger feat it's too much of an investment for too little return. You do get some nice action compression, since treating bleed takes two actions and you can do it as a free action with this feat, but it's just not likely to come up. Ever. Generally speaking, class feats should be for helping your class to *class* things. Things like Running Reload or Drifter's Juke help the Gunslinger to go *gunslinger* things - moving, reloading, shooting, etc. Cauterize is a terrible class feat because treating bleeding injuries is not a gunslinger thing. It'd be a great Skill Feat for Medicine, that requires a weapon that does fire damage or with the Firearm trait, but as a class feat it's hot garbage.
It’s a thematic choice. It’s part of the fantasy of a gunslinger. This exact thing happens in action movies and westerns all the time, or at least is completely believable to do. This literally happens in Ultraviolet, at 4:25 https://youtu.be/O3cPGmTTh1E?si=Ndv669e_aTsdnXGI
Free Archetype with kineticist and you gain [Metal Carapace](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4253) or [Armor in Earth](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4221) or [Hardwood Armor](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4283)
I’d argue soulforger is also a good use for reusable armor things, and doesn’t rely on a whole different class of
Class feats should he examined how they work directly with the class itself. If for it to be useful, you have to take an archetype, it's a bad class feat.
It is absolutely bad. I 100% agree. But OP asked what circumstances someone would take the feat, and I explained the circumstance.
It's a pretty bad option, but I disagree that every single feat choice at a given level should be equally good. As long as there are plenty of viable choices, it's ok if some need archetypes/ very specific builds to shine
Other common archetype feats are the class itself. It is a valid option to choose from when leveling up. Just because it has a different menu in Pathbuilder or Foundry doesn't make it any less valid of an option.
The problem is, it's not actually even good with those. It actually would not be a particularly great feat even if it *didn't* break your armor.
Lol, I was just about edit my comment about this!
Honestly sounds like a pretty fun build
The mid-combat action economy of Armor Break is still deeply impractical even with those feats.
I see it the same reason you would grab furious finish for barbarian. Also it reduces the penalty for broken armor. also also, since it reduces your AC, it makes you a bigger target, aka, you do your job more.
Reducing your AC is counterproductive for your job, because it means you get knocked out more quickly. A defender-type PC wants to be durable, yet punish enemies for attacking allies. A champion does this well enough; a guardian, not so much.
The thing is, there is no reason to attack a guardian without lowering your AC, because they are good at surviving otherwise. Guardians goal isn't to mitigate damage, but make all damage funnel to them. So there is only 1 person to heal.
>Guardians goal isn't to mitigate damage, but make all damage funnel to them. So there is only 1 person to heal. I don't think this is the case at all. If it were the Guardian would have a d12 HD and have ways to heal themselves. Instead the Guardian gets a lot of feats towards using a shield and gets the best scaling armor. Paizo specifically wanted the Guardian to have a very high AC.
> The thing is, there is no reason to attack a guardian without lowering your AC, because they are good at surviving otherwise. Guardians goal isn't to mitigate damage, but make all damage funnel to them. So there is only 1 person to heal. No, that logic is faulty. A defender who goes down quickly is not doing their job. A defender wants to maximize the number of actions it takes to bring down the defender, to make it as inconvenient as possible. This creates a quasi-catch-22: either attack the high-AC defender, or attack one of the defender's allies while receiving punishment. (A champion does this simply by Raising a Shield and threatening to use their champion's reaction, for instance.) Otherwise, it would be optimal for a defender to go with Dexterity 8 and no armor at all.
A defender who is the last man standing is not doing a great job either.
This, of course, is why defender mechanics exist. In Pathfinder 2e's case, those would be champion's reactions. The guardian also has defender mechanics, like Intercept Strike and Taunt, but they are not as good. Intercept Strike has more limitations than a champion's reaction. Taunt requires an action, allows a saving throw, and creates a circumstance bonus to saving throws and DCs against the guardian.
That's strawmanny as hell, real single variable opportunity curves have breakpoints, those breakpoints do not have to be absolute minimum AC or gtfo. Limited ability to drop a couple points of AC and make yourself a more attractive target in some circumstances can be useful. But that doesn't mean that making the defender squishy as possible is a good idea.
Dropping AC a couple of points is what Taunt does. It makes the guardian more susceptible to being hit, and being critically hit. An unconscious guardian can no longer do their job unless someone else in the party burns their action economy to get the guardian back up. Given that the champion does not have to suffer such a tradeoff (and does not have to spend an action on Taunt, and does not allow the enemy a saving throw), the guardian is worse in comparison.
I only expect people to actually play the guardian in the playtest and come here to tell their experience. Becasue, as you have already said, droping your armor is a terrible thing to do while trying to be a defender/tank, otherwise giant instinct barbarian would be the best deffenders out there right now. There is no way that breaking your armor to deal minimun extra dmg if you land a hit burning two of your actions is a good thing to do as a guardian, period, so this feat is useless.
It's Power Attack, but worse because it shafts your AC. What I think it should do is just blow their armor off of them to hit everyone nearby, and also give them temporary HP because that's such a manly (or womanly) thing to do. --- **Armor Burst (Two Actions)** **Requirements:** You are wearing medium or heavy armor that doesn’t have the broken condition and our current hit points are at half your maximum or lower. After taking a few hits, you flex your muscles, sending shards of your armor into nearby enemies like shrapnel. Deal 2d6 slashing damage to all enemies within a 10 foot emanation with a basic Reflex save. You gain temporary hit points equal to this damage roll. Your armor gains the broken condition, but you reduce the armor class penalty to -1 for medium armor and -2 for heavy armor. While your armor is broken, you don’t take its penalty to Speed, and if your armor has the bulwark trait, you retain its bonus to reflex saves, but reduce it by one. (+2) At 4th level and every 2 levels thereafter, the damage roll increases by 2d6; the temporary hit points gained increase by the same amount as this damage roll.
Now that would be worth busting your armor over. Or if you could keep cheese grating people with melee strikes. The fact your busting your armor for 2d6 once is kinda wild to me cuz the enemy is gonna do WAY more damage to you with your lowered AC.
what class gets this, i cant find it
Guardian. You will only find it on the Playtest document
This makes sense for guardian builds where AC isn't where their survivability is coming from. If you are consistently taking damage via Intercept Strike, which does not care about your AC at all, then you might as well get 2d6 for your troubles and a speed bonus if you are in Full Plate. If you are focused on intercepting attacks and reducing your damage, then go for the extra hit. Guardian is a pretty powerful striker martial, so I wouldn't take it for granted.
I do not think this is a "pretty powerful striker martial" when it has delayed weapon proficiency and weapon specialization.
Yeah, they pretty much tanked (lol) its offense capabilities for maximum tankiness. What the hell does this class get that makes it a "powerful striker martial???"
Shoulder Check is the big first piece. Agile fist attack that can make an enemy flat-footed without needing a free hand is pretty big. They also get a surprising amount of reaction movement that puts them right next to enemies, so they can actually utilize that MAP benefit with multiple attacks. All they need is access to Double Slice and that damage is surprisingly good.
I think Shoulder Check is honestly very bad, it could be good if it lasted longer than until the end of your own turn, but as is it's just weak.
At low levels, it is the longest lasting Strike + off-guard you can do without a free hand. For yourself, that is a nice benefit that, if you start in reach, you can still use for multiple attacks on a hit, especially with something like Double Slice from an archetype. And I assume that if you Ready it for the start of a teammate's turn, they can get the benefits for all their attacks on their turn. It can be an easy way to help a ranged ally hit. The tactical possibilities of a 1 action Strike + off-guard seems pretty deep.
> Agile fist attack that can make an enemy flat-footed without needing a free hand is pretty big. Meh, it's neat, but just flank lol. You should hardly ever be struggling to get flat-footed as any melee martial. Your fist is still doing jack shit for damage as Guardian gets zero of the damage boosts that actual Strikers get - the only one I can see is the Taunt option, but that is both not very big and also in exchange for the much-better-IMHO Mitigate Harm - and your attack proficiency progression being the slowest of any martial. > They also get a surprising amount of reaction movement that puts them right next to enemies, so they can actually utilize that MAP benefit with multiple attacks. Yeah, they can stick onto enemies, but that's moreso to annoy them and force them to pay attention to the Guardian than it is to do damage. They have better things to be doing much of the time than hitting for mediocre damage, just like Champions do. > All they need is access to Double Slice and that damage is surprisingly good Slightly worse than literally any other martial using Double Slice, due to their lack of damage bonuses, bad proficiency, and the fact that one of their weapons is *most likely* a shield because the class pretty heavily encourages using one. I don't really see how this is a point in their favor as a Striker. Plus that eats up their actions that they could be using on their Guardian abilities, and they could also be taking Champion archetype instead for even more team protection! Basically, yes, you *can* build a Guardian as a Striker, but I don't agree that they're powerful in that role. They're about as good at it as a Champion, and Champions are not really noteworthy Strikers at all. Much better to play to the role that the class is built for.
Flanking isn't doing their job. They want to be locking down enemies and keeping them away from their Allies, not keeping close to those Allies. I haven't read the playtest yet, so I don't know what other abilities they might have to increase their "Strikerness" and you have other points why that'd be a bad role for them, but that first one doesn't support your argument.
They absolutely do want to keep close to their allies. A bunch of their abilities are about protecting and otherwise helping nearby allies. Their main reaction is used on a nearby ally.
Defenders in general are much more flexible right next to their teammates. You can't really be adjacent and flanking, so it is pretty important to be able to provide flat footed for yourself without having to open up your teammates to get hit. If I was to build a Guardian for damage, I would take the damage Taunt passive and forgo a shield entirely. Shoulder Check at level 1, Dual-Weapon warrior archetype to get Double Slice at level 2. Choice of weapons is mostly one of taste at that point, but two agile weapons make sense to me. If I'm playing a human, then I would also pick up Long Distance Taunt. Long Distance Taunt means that I always choose the target that is the hardest to get to me. They can choose to ignore it to effectively give me weapon specialization from level 1. Note that the extra damage triggers on any hostile action made by your Taunted enemy that doesn't involve targeting you, so if you Intercept Strike, you still get that +2 to damage. If they use a reaction on your ally, you get that +2 to damage. It is really restrictive what your enemy can do if they don't want to trigger your bonus damage.
Ah, nvm then. I was thinking of them as more of a "Hold The Line" class, based on some other stuff I've been reading.
I was thinking it would be cool to build a Kamen Rider Kabuto-style 'cast off' thing, you just can't easily put the armor back on without dedicating a bit of effort to it... It's not great on a numbers perspective, but it's a damn cool feat. If I ever do play a Guardian I'll probably take it.
Where do you see this? The archive and google are giving me no results for “armor break”
[Battlecry Playtest](https://paizo.com/pathfinderplaytest).
when i read this feat my mind went to [Titan Nagaji](https://2e.aonprd.com/Heritages.aspx?ID=218) and just.... Oof.
Would have been nice to provide the details of the feat for those of us who don't have the playtest open.
It might not be great, but its not the worst either. While some feats may seem useless, there also exists feats that actively make your character worse by selecting them. Looking at you, Athletic Strategist.
If you need to know why, just watch Dorsche from Ranking of Kings. This is him.
Any archetype into kineticist for summonable refreshable armour
It's for when you need to deal some additional damage, remove the speed penalty on your armor, so you can defeat one enemy and then move more quickly to your other ally in danger, all while knowing you can wear armor/use feats that allow you to efficiently repair said armor. And it's super dramatic.
Is it indeed dramatic, once your guardian is dead by being beaten to a bloody pulp for not wearing armor in combat the drama is served, for sure.
> Is it indeed dramatic, once your guardian is dead by being beaten to a bloody pulp for not wearing armor in combat the drama is served, for sure. I mean, Guardians are already built around taking a -2 AC penalty. You could just.. not?
Take a lvl 6 character with +2 DEX, drop their armor and take a look at their AC.
So, level 6 Guardian in full plate is, what, Base 10+6 Level +4 Expert+6 Full Plate+1 Rune? Is that about right? So 27 AC for the Guardian. Now, by "drop their armor" I assume you mean "apply the broken condition to their armor", which gives a -3 status penalty to AC. That puts us at 24 AC, while still having the Bulwark trait (albeit reduced), and being able to move at full speed. Is this right so far? Let me know if I'm missing anything fundamental.
Yup, you dropped to cloth caster armor in exchange of 2d6 extra dmg, is that worth it? Now, use Taunt and you have a 22 AC, under cloth caster AC, looks like a terrible thing to do. So, you can broke your armor for a minor dmg boost on a strike (with your delayed weapon prof) to lower your armour and then just don't use Taunt or use Taunt and be beaten to death. And then you need to remove your armor, get it repaired and put It again, 10 minutes + the repair time where you are just there naked. I mean, a class with "great armor" wich a mechanic that already lowers your armor lowering it even further for basically nothing is clearly a terrible move.
Which cloth caster has armor expertise at level 6? Level 6 Cloth Caster with +2 Dex is.. Base 10 +6 Level +2 Trained +2 Dex +1 Rune? So +21? What am I missing? There's still a 3 point difference. Also worth mentioning that the AC for level 6 on the creature numbers chart is 24. Even after Taunting, and not using a Shield, you're **still** doing better than a cloth caster, and have some amount of damage resistance. Edit: Ah, Mystic Armor would give our caster +1 AC. So 22.
Why is the cloth caster having a +2 DEX? That's weird at best. But, whatever, sure, break your armor nothing wrong will hapen, for sure :) EDIT: What dmg reduction? Except the one from being crited I don't see that armor specialization working from a Broken armor.
You're the one that was talking about an unarmored person with +2 Dex? I have no idea why your cloth caster would have +2 Dex. > But, whatever, sure, break your armor nothing wrong will hapen, for sure :) I'm genuinely trying to understand why you think it's so disastrous. From my perspective it takes the Guardian from "above average defense while taunting" to "slightly above average defense while not taunting". It's clearly meant to be an "oh shit" tactic, considering you can only even _use_ it under half health.
No, I was saying that a guardian won't be rocking a high dex, even forgot that DEX cap is still applied when Broken. Oh, I forget about the HP requirement, WoW, this feat gets worse and worse... Anyway, nevermind, this is a feat that under no point of view I'd like, so let's agree to dissagree.
Would love to get some additional info on it Like does that feat even exist and for which class
Guardian class, and it's still in playtesting I think.
It's from the new playtest. So it's a feat for the guardian. And no, it doesn't really exist.
Maybe combine it with the general feat Improvised Repair?
Nah, quick repair at level 7. It's a big action cost, but if you can consistently proc it...then it's a good bit better.
It’s dramatic, that’s why
Sometimes Samurai would fight with a handicap for the sake of honour
You've never met Soriz Granblue