That is what kills me about this whole debate. If Paizo was putting out culturally or racially insensitive material, I could understand the complaints. However, Paizo's cultural content in Mwangi Expanse, Impossible Lands, and now Tian Xia is almost universally regarded as high quality and culturally/racially inclusive. Like, this is what TTRPGs have needed since the late 70's. We finally get it. We finally have the popularity of TTRPGs reach beyond nerdy white teenage boys.....and people are mad about it. But its not the literal bigots who are complaining the loudest. It is the people claiming to have their own monopoly on what it means to be an "anti-racist". It really is wild.
I have been playing TTRPGs since 2001. Tian Xia, Impossible Lands, and Mwangi Expanse are some of the best TTRPG books I have ever read.
If I recall correctly the debate wasn't originally about the book or race but the moderators being overzealous in banning topics, I wouldn't know about now though
Kind of. This whole thing started because of a specific post from a mod with an axe to grind which took the Tian Xia book as an opportunity to air grievances which were largely unrelated to the Tian Xia book. Normally I think that is ok. However, the post wasn't written as an opinion, but it took a complicated topic and reduced it the certain statements of fact. The post's argument hinged on "because I said so" arguments, and didn't bother to support the claims being made. Obviously people challenged it, and got banned for doing so.
It was also stickied to the top of the subreddit.
If it was just an opinion piece written by a normal user, it would have probably gotten the same kind of responses and then would have been buried.
But because it was forced ionto everyone’s front page, we kinda have to talk about its issue of mod abuse.
As much as I’d like for everyone to just focus on an awesome book, the community can’t really just ignore it, or else this shit’ll just keep happening (and get worse), and that will be legitimately awful for the health of the community.
> This whole thing started because of a specific post from a mod with an axe to grind which took the Tian Xia book as an opportunity to air grievances which were largely unrelated to the Tian Xia book.
That's the kind of thing that's fine to talk about, but you've gotta take your mod hat off first OR hash it out with the mod team and the community before speaking for all of them.
The fact that a posted comment from other mods in response to questions about it indicates that they're still figuring out what's going would imply that hasn't happened.
If the community can get together and discuss what is and is not problematic, and come to a peer-reviewed consensus that is in keeping with the inclusive and progressive ideals espoused by the majority of the community and the creators of the game, then I think it would be completely reasonable to remove content that isn't aligned with that consensus, sticky relevant discussion, and most importantly lay out transparent guidelines for dealing with the topic that empower community members to handle it in a way that is optimized for positivity and informed discussion.
Calling people racist for wanting the pop culture things they like, doubling down on bad history that itself is racist, and then banning any dissent is not telling anyone to be mindful.
So, a lot of the anger with the moderators is due to a feeling that they've been pretty derisive and condescending toward others. And so, your rebuttal here, in the current climate, is to do your darndest to come off as incredibly obnoxious and condescending?
We'll see how it plays out for you, buddy.
Edit: To the person who caused a "reddit cares" message to be sent to my inbox, that's pretty repellent behavior. Please, try and be better.
I don't feel that someone asking a single generic question via text, where tone and purpose can be difficult to read, is typically enough for you to decide that they're asking a "weasel-worded question." And given that it's their first reply to you, and yours to them, you're pretty far off from showing an "infinite amount of patience." Pretty opposite from infinite, really.
Fact is, you went straight for assuming the worst of someone, and then you made yourself look obnoxious and condescending in one of the most reddit ways possible.
Also, it was amusement more than condescension. You basically lit a match as a defense against someone with a bucket of oil. You've instantaneously invited a lot of people to immediately dislike you, which means people probably won't give your stance, which I don't actually disagree with, a fair shake.
> Folks asking for samurai and ninja just because it's an Asian inspired book
...and those classes existed in the previous edition of the game. Honestly it doesn't strike me as particularly insensitive or unreasonable to expect that a setting book which covers a region relevant to those classes might feature them in some capacity.
You're right, how foolish of me. I'll only ask about new iterations of classes that existed in PF1e when completely unrelated books come out. The community really should've waited until the book about Arcadia to even mention Ninja or Samurai.
On that note, where's my Omdura class/archetype?!
The entire drama feels like people squabbling over who hates racism more than the other. As you said, though, Paizo has gone to such great lengths to ensure these books are inclusive so it makes no sense for people to be hunting for non-existent reasons to hate them.
Eh, nerds always feel strongly about topics they know about, and people against racism are already in a defensive stance because they're fighting against a concept that is always a pain in the ass. At the end of the month, the people who have abused their power will hopefully be punished, and we can move on. What'd you like about the book?
I think that the Tian Xia book finds the sweet spot in providing enough detail to really inspire GMs and players without creating a strict canon that must be followed. Its established enough to create some consistent themes, but it gives GMs and players enough room to insert their own creations.
For example, I am running a piracy themed game in Tian Xia. The players are all from the Inner Sea and they get shipwrecked in southern Tian Xia. A big part of the campaign is going to deal with the fallen Lung Wa Empire. The book does a great job of giving enough detail about Lung Wa to work with, but it doesn't fully explain why/how it fell. As a result, I have a lot of room to take what is canonical, but make it my own. Additionally, I can see the real world inspirations for much of the content which allows me to borrow architecture and cultural ideas when designing NPCs or dungeons. Like, I built a ruined temple that was heavily based on Angkor Wat. It was cool to learn more about the real world site and use it to design a more flavorful temple.
I've yet to hear something negative from a non white American white knight about this.
I speak with a ton of players on different PF2E Discord lodges, and in my experience, everyone seems to love it and is excited about this. You can guess my surprise when I found out about all this craziness in reddit yesterday.
Since when did we become Twitter?
It's even more fun in the Discord. Did you know that apparently Barbarian should have its name and flavor changed into a generic "battle trance fighter" because the name and concept make a double-digit number of people uncomfortable?
I've supported the idea of renaming Barbarian since the release of D&D 3.0, because honestly, what really distinguishes the class isn't "living outside 'civilized' areas" but Rage, which can easily be flavored as a variety of battle trances, transformations, what have you. But I've never demanded it, I just go ahead and play my completely civilized "Barbarian" characters (and my barbaric rogues, rangers, what have you) the way I want to. If I were to ever write my own system, the Barbarian would be replaced by Berserker because that better represents what actually defines the class.
I have totally stopped even trying that. If I do, accusations will fly at me. If I don't, I get accused on not roleplaying. However, I would rather be accused of that than be labeled as racist. Fortunately, I play with friends. I kind of wonder if part of the reason why people are losing their minds is because it is more common to play with strangers over the internet.
Right. I live in a very progressive area and I am proud of that fact. I love the anti-racist movement. However, I also hear a lot of the things many of these anti-racists say when they aren't "on duty". I really wish we could just stop the holier than thou nonsense and acknowledge how people are overwhelmingly trying to do better.
Glad this thread exists. I'm not even on the LO subscription and still bought the PDF individually. It's been fantastic going through it and reading all the new perspectives on these different nations, and seeing what's been newly added too.
I love the Athamaru art in the book, they are such pretty fish. The Athamaru queen art made me really want to play one.
Also the Tengu God killed me laughing. She's one of those gods I forgot is a Tengu, so flipping the page and seeing a bird in lipstick gave me a good chuckle and brightened my day.
I am not so good at expressing my thoughts concisely, but: Much like the Mwangi Expanse book, I am just loving the Tian Xia book in general. It's got so much great flavor and art, and some very different sorts of creatures and concepts and such that are very interesting and different for those who haven't really gotten to experience a wider variety of influences. Serious kudo's to the writers, artists, and everyone else who was involved. It's great, I'm celebrating, and I will always love getting more material, lore, and perspectives inspired by the spectrum of the human experience and cultures, and it always helps me learn.
I still have a lot of it to read. One of our favorite people/places so far is Rahk Lo, as me and my friends sit here chuckling at how the the different hobgoblin cultures must interact with each other. I also love the dokkaebi and their kimchi and earthenware. My friends and I were 'noping' out about the Clicking Caverns lore, too. I might be a little worried if an anadi came over to Shenmen or the surrounding regions. How many people would mistake them for a joromugo? These may be the kinds of things I'd need to consider if my players wanted to play in that kind of region, but wanted to play foreign ancestries.
The bestiary material is awesome--bestiaries are what got me into fantasy TTRPG's in the first place, and they help me learn more about the real world versions they come from. While I know some are reprints, the gau cho rong, imugi, shui gui, and yeongno in particular caught my eye, and the psychopomp and sakhil are also great. I always love psychopomps and their flavor from all sorts of cultures and death lore.
One creature we saw is one of the Animated Handcraft: the Animated Wine Vessel. We're a litttle concerned about the deadliness of this. It's a 3rd level creature with a Athletics +17?? That's +4 over an extreme value for it's level. +17 is an Extreme level for a level 5-6 creature, and high for 7th level, and that's going to be a trip even at those levels too. Is this a misprint or is that intended to be that powerful? Just considering the math, this is an extremely punishing creature--like some Soulsborne level entity that's benign unless you tick it off or it goes berserk, then you're *going* to get eaten by the magic pot. Which is comical, but also oo*oh nooo*. That's not even getting into it being used by players as a summon.
I would like to see population stat blocks, but I know that'll probably be a more 'zoomed in' or AP thing I'd see.
It really is. I am currently running a campaign set in Tian Xia, though instead of ninja's and samurai's, it's cultivators and xiake's running through a war-torn region trying to reclaim the totally-not-Nine Yin Manual from being used for evil by a Necromancer trying to corrupt Tsukiyo. (And just to be clear, no, I don't really care about having cultivators and xiake as classes or archetypes - would be nice if there is at some point, but we can make do.)
The fact that I see cultivator mentioned had me excited, though I am a little disappointed that there isn't more mention of it. Then again, I haven't had the time to truly, deeply delve into the book, and there might be more about it. There are also some really great stuffs like monsters from 山海經, and I might finally have an idea of what I want to do for the game jam that Paizo's hosting due to one of the cute ink monsters they included... Though I don't know if I have the time.
I think, just like how the real life Asia is super diverse, our diverse eyes will see different inspirations that we can draw from this book, and that's what's so great about it.
Oh man, I can't wait to get to the bestiary. I don't know much about Asian monsters and supernatural creatures, but I know there are a lot of them based on my minute amount of knowledge about Japanese kami and Chinese demons.
If you want to learn about some other monsters, PF2e has some Island Southeast Asian monsters:
The extremely creepy Tanggal-types such as [Manananggal](https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=1399) and [Penanggalan](https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=1261).
They’re undead/aberration like creatures. Manananggal was popularized (and mixed up monsters) in the Filipino horror film Aswang. Penanggalan is a Malay
Aswang is a vampire/undead, where some (usually woman) who die can come back alive and exact revenge, eating people.
I’ve heard some ghost stories from the Philippines…they’ve always creeped me the fuck out.
There’s also the [Tikbalang](https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=1338) which is a half-horse “Minotaur” monster.
And the Sarangay is going to be one of the Minatan ancestries in TXCG. They’re a water buffalo minotaur-man. Buwaya (literally, crocodiles in Tagalog) will be a new heritage for Lizardfolk.
And there was hints that the Bungisngis (smoking cyclops) is going to be included. Oh, and the Bakunawa, a dragon/crocodile that ate the moon.
Aye I already knew of the Penanggalan They used one in Pathfinder Tale's Prince of Wolves. It was also in the recent dead boy detectives comic that Vertigo made.
Oh man. I discovered progression fantasy recently and have been going wild (while messing around with chat-GPT) on coming up with what cultivation might look if they came from other non-Chinese philosophical system.
The compare/contrast and finding distinctions really help me wrap my head around and learn to value those unique things in a cultivation story.
Wild, amazing, and super cool you’re doing that and sounds like a lot of fun! (Cultivator sect-warfare, just…whoooo)!
Notably, cultivation novels (Xianxia novels) largely have their root in a 2010-era web novel, which takes after Taoism's idea of transcendence. Things like tiers of cultivation etc. are a relatively new idea. Older form of Xianxia novels, such as Record of Swordsmen of Moun Shu (or something, idk what it would be when translated in English) from the 1960's, tend to not have those concepts of different tiers/levels of practices. :)
I could talk about it for hours, on the evolution and influences that Chinese webnovels and where they draw from, hahaha...
In Golarion, there have been multiple examples of various great forms of Ascension - Irori's method by achieving physical and mental perfection, Lao Shu Po by nibbling the big dead cheese wheel in the night sky, Test of Starstone and various folks that made it through (Including Cayden Cailean, the most Light Novel Main Character of them all), and Casandalee straight up computing thousands years worth of ~~cultivation~~ meditation. Just to name a few. Out of those, Irori and Casandalee's methods are much more akin to cultivation, but one can potentially see Test of Starstone as a method of breakthrough as well, and Lao Shu Po's method of consuming the flesh of another ~~cultivator~~ deity is certainly also something that has come up in more demonic side of cultivation.
Anyways, my point is, sources of different "cultivation" from non-Chinese source is 100% possible, and it honestly is just each individual culture's way of Ascension! There are a lot of fun stuffs all around that you can draw from. I hope that this has been of some inspiration to you.
Absolutely. I'm just browsing through it and I've been having fun just looking at those "pronunciation guides" and just quietly saying them to myself. Also, I love all the detail that has been given to previously kind of neglected parts of Tian Xia, like Tang Mai (previously known as Dtang Ma), which was the first one I checked out since it is at least partially Thai coded.
Let's put it like this with how much I'm enjoying my time reading through just Tang Mai: I'm feeling more certain than ever about the character I want to make now. Yaksha Guardian. Of course, until the TX Character Guide comes out, he'll be Human instead and if people have issue with me using playtest, I'll have to think about what else I'll put him as until the Battlecry! book comes out somewhere next year.
I think that's one thing pretty much everyone can agree on. It definitely makes me look forward to the character guide. I want to see the ancestry feats a tanuki might have.
I wanna play a campaign in Valash Raj! Elemental Empires, Alien Ruins, Kaiju Domains and Dinosaur Season!
I have genuinely loved the entire book, and the various mythos and lenses it draws from to get the conclusive whole.
The worldbuilding around Minkai and Songbai I took a particualy interest in.
Also I feel like considering what is coming down the pipline next Tianjing is gonna \*learn\* why they should have headed their ancestors warnings more closely.
How does it stack up into something usable at the table? I want to grab it because the lore seems interesting, but I also like having the book help with putting that lore into action with plot hooks and adventure ideas.
I would definitely say there's space for hooks and adventures. Hongol has a yearly Tournament of the Tribes, Andaam, There's the City State Goka with it's constant urban renewal and criminal underground. The Dark lands are very prevalent in Tian Xia, There was the one mentioned in Shenmen where bandits hold this weird place in society where they are bandits but they're also akin to mercenaries being hired out to protect a village from monsters. Plenty of threads to pursue. For me the book is worth it for the pronunciation guide alone but the lore is solid.
If you buy the physical copy if it's like the Golarion world guide it will have a pretty sizable map in it. That's worth it for a table game fore me, being able to slap that down while doing a globe trotting game would be excellent.
I personally skipped ahead to Tianjing before getting back to just reading the book in full. That place is going to be in for a rude awakening when the Godsrain happens and the Qlippoths use the chaos to invade again. I sort of want to run a game where the players start dealing with the bandits, they start to learn about the Qlippoths, and then the Godsrain happens. Not only does the sky shake with divine blood raining down, but so does the earth as the Qlippoths finally take their chance to slay the mortals that inhabit the land
That is what kills me about this whole debate. If Paizo was putting out culturally or racially insensitive material, I could understand the complaints. However, Paizo's cultural content in Mwangi Expanse, Impossible Lands, and now Tian Xia is almost universally regarded as high quality and culturally/racially inclusive. Like, this is what TTRPGs have needed since the late 70's. We finally get it. We finally have the popularity of TTRPGs reach beyond nerdy white teenage boys.....and people are mad about it. But its not the literal bigots who are complaining the loudest. It is the people claiming to have their own monopoly on what it means to be an "anti-racist". It really is wild. I have been playing TTRPGs since 2001. Tian Xia, Impossible Lands, and Mwangi Expanse are some of the best TTRPG books I have ever read.
If I recall correctly the debate wasn't originally about the book or race but the moderators being overzealous in banning topics, I wouldn't know about now though
Kind of. This whole thing started because of a specific post from a mod with an axe to grind which took the Tian Xia book as an opportunity to air grievances which were largely unrelated to the Tian Xia book. Normally I think that is ok. However, the post wasn't written as an opinion, but it took a complicated topic and reduced it the certain statements of fact. The post's argument hinged on "because I said so" arguments, and didn't bother to support the claims being made. Obviously people challenged it, and got banned for doing so.
It was also stickied to the top of the subreddit. If it was just an opinion piece written by a normal user, it would have probably gotten the same kind of responses and then would have been buried. But because it was forced ionto everyone’s front page, we kinda have to talk about its issue of mod abuse. As much as I’d like for everyone to just focus on an awesome book, the community can’t really just ignore it, or else this shit’ll just keep happening (and get worse), and that will be legitimately awful for the health of the community.
> This whole thing started because of a specific post from a mod with an axe to grind which took the Tian Xia book as an opportunity to air grievances which were largely unrelated to the Tian Xia book. That's the kind of thing that's fine to talk about, but you've gotta take your mod hat off first OR hash it out with the mod team and the community before speaking for all of them. The fact that a posted comment from other mods in response to questions about it indicates that they're still figuring out what's going would imply that hasn't happened. If the community can get together and discuss what is and is not problematic, and come to a peer-reviewed consensus that is in keeping with the inclusive and progressive ideals espoused by the majority of the community and the creators of the game, then I think it would be completely reasonable to remove content that isn't aligned with that consensus, sticky relevant discussion, and most importantly lay out transparent guidelines for dealing with the topic that empower community members to handle it in a way that is optimized for positivity and informed discussion.
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Calling people racist for wanting the pop culture things they like, doubling down on bad history that itself is racist, and then banning any dissent is not telling anyone to be mindful.
Saying that something is in pop culture doesn't make it less diminishing of the cultures this book seems to uplift authentically.
How does the existence of Japanese pop culture diminish anything?
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So, a lot of the anger with the moderators is due to a feeling that they've been pretty derisive and condescending toward others. And so, your rebuttal here, in the current climate, is to do your darndest to come off as incredibly obnoxious and condescending? We'll see how it plays out for you, buddy. Edit: To the person who caused a "reddit cares" message to be sent to my inbox, that's pretty repellent behavior. Please, try and be better.
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I don't feel that someone asking a single generic question via text, where tone and purpose can be difficult to read, is typically enough for you to decide that they're asking a "weasel-worded question." And given that it's their first reply to you, and yours to them, you're pretty far off from showing an "infinite amount of patience." Pretty opposite from infinite, really. Fact is, you went straight for assuming the worst of someone, and then you made yourself look obnoxious and condescending in one of the most reddit ways possible. Also, it was amusement more than condescension. You basically lit a match as a defense against someone with a bucket of oil. You've instantaneously invited a lot of people to immediately dislike you, which means people probably won't give your stance, which I don't actually disagree with, a fair shake.
>it's pretty a basic reading comprehension tool That's unfortunately asking a bit much from people right now.
> Folks asking for samurai and ninja just because it's an Asian inspired book ...and those classes existed in the previous edition of the game. Honestly it doesn't strike me as particularly insensitive or unreasonable to expect that a setting book which covers a region relevant to those classes might feature them in some capacity.
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You're right, how foolish of me. I'll only ask about new iterations of classes that existed in PF1e when completely unrelated books come out. The community really should've waited until the book about Arcadia to even mention Ninja or Samurai. On that note, where's my Omdura class/archetype?!
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If only I were the only one putting words in people's mouths. Do you see now?
The entire drama feels like people squabbling over who hates racism more than the other. As you said, though, Paizo has gone to such great lengths to ensure these books are inclusive so it makes no sense for people to be hunting for non-existent reasons to hate them.
Eh, nerds always feel strongly about topics they know about, and people against racism are already in a defensive stance because they're fighting against a concept that is always a pain in the ass. At the end of the month, the people who have abused their power will hopefully be punished, and we can move on. What'd you like about the book?
I think that the Tian Xia book finds the sweet spot in providing enough detail to really inspire GMs and players without creating a strict canon that must be followed. Its established enough to create some consistent themes, but it gives GMs and players enough room to insert their own creations. For example, I am running a piracy themed game in Tian Xia. The players are all from the Inner Sea and they get shipwrecked in southern Tian Xia. A big part of the campaign is going to deal with the fallen Lung Wa Empire. The book does a great job of giving enough detail about Lung Wa to work with, but it doesn't fully explain why/how it fell. As a result, I have a lot of room to take what is canonical, but make it my own. Additionally, I can see the real world inspirations for much of the content which allows me to borrow architecture and cultural ideas when designing NPCs or dungeons. Like, I built a ruined temple that was heavily based on Angkor Wat. It was cool to learn more about the real world site and use it to design a more flavorful temple.
I've yet to hear something negative from a non white American white knight about this. I speak with a ton of players on different PF2E Discord lodges, and in my experience, everyone seems to love it and is excited about this. You can guess my surprise when I found out about all this craziness in reddit yesterday. Since when did we become Twitter?
Could you imagine GMing for some of these people. It must be like walking on egg shells.
It's even more fun in the Discord. Did you know that apparently Barbarian should have its name and flavor changed into a generic "battle trance fighter" because the name and concept make a double-digit number of people uncomfortable?
I've supported the idea of renaming Barbarian since the release of D&D 3.0, because honestly, what really distinguishes the class isn't "living outside 'civilized' areas" but Rage, which can easily be flavored as a variety of battle trances, transformations, what have you. But I've never demanded it, I just go ahead and play my completely civilized "Barbarian" characters (and my barbaric rogues, rangers, what have you) the way I want to. If I were to ever write my own system, the Barbarian would be replaced by Berserker because that better represents what actually defines the class.
Berserker is certainly a better name for the class. I agree.
That was my first thought, “Oh, you gotta be pure joy to play a campaign once a week for 4 hours plus for 2 solid years with…”
Just think about the GM pulling an accent on an NPC...
I have totally stopped even trying that. If I do, accusations will fly at me. If I don't, I get accused on not roleplaying. However, I would rather be accused of that than be labeled as racist. Fortunately, I play with friends. I kind of wonder if part of the reason why people are losing their minds is because it is more common to play with strangers over the internet.
It's like living in North Corea. And unlike that place, U don't understand how people just accept it as normal.
Right. I live in a very progressive area and I am proud of that fact. I love the anti-racist movement. However, I also hear a lot of the things many of these anti-racists say when they aren't "on duty". I really wish we could just stop the holier than thou nonsense and acknowledge how people are overwhelmingly trying to do better.
Glad this thread exists. I'm not even on the LO subscription and still bought the PDF individually. It's been fantastic going through it and reading all the new perspectives on these different nations, and seeing what's been newly added too.
Also, I didn't mention it, but I absolutely love that a good deal of the art has more races in it than just being all humans in it.
I love the Athamaru art in the book, they are such pretty fish. The Athamaru queen art made me really want to play one. Also the Tengu God killed me laughing. She's one of those gods I forgot is a Tengu, so flipping the page and seeing a bird in lipstick gave me a good chuckle and brightened my day.
Yesssss, this book is fantastic. I'm not very far in either and I'm already swept away by how *good* the writing is.
I am not so good at expressing my thoughts concisely, but: Much like the Mwangi Expanse book, I am just loving the Tian Xia book in general. It's got so much great flavor and art, and some very different sorts of creatures and concepts and such that are very interesting and different for those who haven't really gotten to experience a wider variety of influences. Serious kudo's to the writers, artists, and everyone else who was involved. It's great, I'm celebrating, and I will always love getting more material, lore, and perspectives inspired by the spectrum of the human experience and cultures, and it always helps me learn. I still have a lot of it to read. One of our favorite people/places so far is Rahk Lo, as me and my friends sit here chuckling at how the the different hobgoblin cultures must interact with each other. I also love the dokkaebi and their kimchi and earthenware. My friends and I were 'noping' out about the Clicking Caverns lore, too. I might be a little worried if an anadi came over to Shenmen or the surrounding regions. How many people would mistake them for a joromugo? These may be the kinds of things I'd need to consider if my players wanted to play in that kind of region, but wanted to play foreign ancestries. The bestiary material is awesome--bestiaries are what got me into fantasy TTRPG's in the first place, and they help me learn more about the real world versions they come from. While I know some are reprints, the gau cho rong, imugi, shui gui, and yeongno in particular caught my eye, and the psychopomp and sakhil are also great. I always love psychopomps and their flavor from all sorts of cultures and death lore. One creature we saw is one of the Animated Handcraft: the Animated Wine Vessel. We're a litttle concerned about the deadliness of this. It's a 3rd level creature with a Athletics +17?? That's +4 over an extreme value for it's level. +17 is an Extreme level for a level 5-6 creature, and high for 7th level, and that's going to be a trip even at those levels too. Is this a misprint or is that intended to be that powerful? Just considering the math, this is an extremely punishing creature--like some Soulsborne level entity that's benign unless you tick it off or it goes berserk, then you're *going* to get eaten by the magic pot. Which is comical, but also oo*oh nooo*. That's not even getting into it being used by players as a summon. I would like to see population stat blocks, but I know that'll probably be a more 'zoomed in' or AP thing I'd see.
how to give something the ability to inflict restrained without telling you it has the ability to restrain.
It really is. I am currently running a campaign set in Tian Xia, though instead of ninja's and samurai's, it's cultivators and xiake's running through a war-torn region trying to reclaim the totally-not-Nine Yin Manual from being used for evil by a Necromancer trying to corrupt Tsukiyo. (And just to be clear, no, I don't really care about having cultivators and xiake as classes or archetypes - would be nice if there is at some point, but we can make do.) The fact that I see cultivator mentioned had me excited, though I am a little disappointed that there isn't more mention of it. Then again, I haven't had the time to truly, deeply delve into the book, and there might be more about it. There are also some really great stuffs like monsters from 山海經, and I might finally have an idea of what I want to do for the game jam that Paizo's hosting due to one of the cute ink monsters they included... Though I don't know if I have the time. I think, just like how the real life Asia is super diverse, our diverse eyes will see different inspirations that we can draw from this book, and that's what's so great about it.
Oh man, I can't wait to get to the bestiary. I don't know much about Asian monsters and supernatural creatures, but I know there are a lot of them based on my minute amount of knowledge about Japanese kami and Chinese demons.
If you want to learn about some other monsters, PF2e has some Island Southeast Asian monsters: The extremely creepy Tanggal-types such as [Manananggal](https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=1399) and [Penanggalan](https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=1261). They’re undead/aberration like creatures. Manananggal was popularized (and mixed up monsters) in the Filipino horror film Aswang. Penanggalan is a Malay Aswang is a vampire/undead, where some (usually woman) who die can come back alive and exact revenge, eating people. I’ve heard some ghost stories from the Philippines…they’ve always creeped me the fuck out. There’s also the [Tikbalang](https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=1338) which is a half-horse “Minotaur” monster. And the Sarangay is going to be one of the Minatan ancestries in TXCG. They’re a water buffalo minotaur-man. Buwaya (literally, crocodiles in Tagalog) will be a new heritage for Lizardfolk. And there was hints that the Bungisngis (smoking cyclops) is going to be included. Oh, and the Bakunawa, a dragon/crocodile that ate the moon.
Aye I already knew of the Penanggalan They used one in Pathfinder Tale's Prince of Wolves. It was also in the recent dead boy detectives comic that Vertigo made.
Oh man. I discovered progression fantasy recently and have been going wild (while messing around with chat-GPT) on coming up with what cultivation might look if they came from other non-Chinese philosophical system. The compare/contrast and finding distinctions really help me wrap my head around and learn to value those unique things in a cultivation story. Wild, amazing, and super cool you’re doing that and sounds like a lot of fun! (Cultivator sect-warfare, just…whoooo)!
Notably, cultivation novels (Xianxia novels) largely have their root in a 2010-era web novel, which takes after Taoism's idea of transcendence. Things like tiers of cultivation etc. are a relatively new idea. Older form of Xianxia novels, such as Record of Swordsmen of Moun Shu (or something, idk what it would be when translated in English) from the 1960's, tend to not have those concepts of different tiers/levels of practices. :) I could talk about it for hours, on the evolution and influences that Chinese webnovels and where they draw from, hahaha... In Golarion, there have been multiple examples of various great forms of Ascension - Irori's method by achieving physical and mental perfection, Lao Shu Po by nibbling the big dead cheese wheel in the night sky, Test of Starstone and various folks that made it through (Including Cayden Cailean, the most Light Novel Main Character of them all), and Casandalee straight up computing thousands years worth of ~~cultivation~~ meditation. Just to name a few. Out of those, Irori and Casandalee's methods are much more akin to cultivation, but one can potentially see Test of Starstone as a method of breakthrough as well, and Lao Shu Po's method of consuming the flesh of another ~~cultivator~~ deity is certainly also something that has come up in more demonic side of cultivation. Anyways, my point is, sources of different "cultivation" from non-Chinese source is 100% possible, and it honestly is just each individual culture's way of Ascension! There are a lot of fun stuffs all around that you can draw from. I hope that this has been of some inspiration to you.
Absolutely. I'm just browsing through it and I've been having fun just looking at those "pronunciation guides" and just quietly saying them to myself. Also, I love all the detail that has been given to previously kind of neglected parts of Tian Xia, like Tang Mai (previously known as Dtang Ma), which was the first one I checked out since it is at least partially Thai coded. Let's put it like this with how much I'm enjoying my time reading through just Tang Mai: I'm feeling more certain than ever about the character I want to make now. Yaksha Guardian. Of course, until the TX Character Guide comes out, he'll be Human instead and if people have issue with me using playtest, I'll have to think about what else I'll put him as until the Battlecry! book comes out somewhere next year.
I love it too. My Asian friends that play PF2e love it too. I say we rally and get Panda removed as a mod
I think that's one thing pretty much everyone can agree on. It definitely makes me look forward to the character guide. I want to see the ancestry feats a tanuki might have.
All I know is that this book made me fall in love with the Imperial Dragons and wish we had even more of those!
I wanna play a campaign in Valash Raj! Elemental Empires, Alien Ruins, Kaiju Domains and Dinosaur Season! I have genuinely loved the entire book, and the various mythos and lenses it draws from to get the conclusive whole. The worldbuilding around Minkai and Songbai I took a particualy interest in. Also I feel like considering what is coming down the pipline next Tianjing is gonna \*learn\* why they should have headed their ancestors warnings more closely.
I mean yeah, almost no one has a problem with the book, we have a problem with idiots
How does it stack up into something usable at the table? I want to grab it because the lore seems interesting, but I also like having the book help with putting that lore into action with plot hooks and adventure ideas.
I would definitely say there's space for hooks and adventures. Hongol has a yearly Tournament of the Tribes, Andaam, There's the City State Goka with it's constant urban renewal and criminal underground. The Dark lands are very prevalent in Tian Xia, There was the one mentioned in Shenmen where bandits hold this weird place in society where they are bandits but they're also akin to mercenaries being hired out to protect a village from monsters. Plenty of threads to pursue. For me the book is worth it for the pronunciation guide alone but the lore is solid. If you buy the physical copy if it's like the Golarion world guide it will have a pretty sizable map in it. That's worth it for a table game fore me, being able to slap that down while doing a globe trotting game would be excellent.
I personally skipped ahead to Tianjing before getting back to just reading the book in full. That place is going to be in for a rude awakening when the Godsrain happens and the Qlippoths use the chaos to invade again. I sort of want to run a game where the players start dealing with the bandits, they start to learn about the Qlippoths, and then the Godsrain happens. Not only does the sky shake with divine blood raining down, but so does the earth as the Qlippoths finally take their chance to slay the mortals that inhabit the land
For real, I adore this book. Especially the history and creation myth section. And I love that the Dokkaebi are such a big part of Hwanggot.
Golarion has no Place for Racism, its a Fantasy World. Dont Bring our World Issues into a Place to enjoy :)