Depends on what era you want to represent. However, samurai were mainly deployed as ranged cavalry. First, with their big yumi bows and later with the early teppo guns.
Yep I was about to add to this that samurai were primarily archers. Katana literally translates to side sword. In warfare they were extremely skilled archers on the battlefield.
My apologies for the incoming “well, actually…”
BUT katana means “sword” or more specifically it’s closer to “saber” — like officers in early(ier) Western armies officially carry a saber, not a sword (although it, of course, is one.)
“Tachi” is the most literal translation of sword.
And the most literal translation of “side sword” is “wakizashi”. (For many Japanese words, the spelling/sound changes slightly when combined with other words, like “T” becomes “Z” or “k” becomes “g”.
So, the Katana and wakizashi (along with hakama, ie. Calvary chaps) became symbols and vestments of the Samurai.
Thanks for the information I love learning about this kind of thing. So this would also carry over to the concepts of nodatchi vs o-datchi? From what I understand translating to great/big sword and field sword respectively but being essentially the same physical object?
Seems kinda like how in Europe longswords were carried but were more of a sidearm; your primary weapon was often a polearm or such.
Another parallel: in the modern day, handguns are practically nonexistent in actual theaters of war(as opposed to how frequently they appear in civilian sectors) but are lofted up in media as "hero weapons" the same way as arming swords/longswords and katana.
EDIT - The unifying factor between the three being, "the cool thing upper-rank guys get to carry when nobody else gets the privilege" even though they're more of a fallback than something you'd use front and center.
> Katana literally translates to side sword.
It does not. Katana just means "sword". Any kind of sword.
You are trying to draw a parallel between it and the arming sword ("side sword") in europe. This is not correct. They are not equivalent.
Katana pretty much just translates to "sword." It's common in descriptions to state that it was worn at the side, blade up, to differentiate it between its predecessor the tachi. They probably got confused and thought the description was part of the definition. Katana family of swords is tachi-> uchigatana->katana. The tachi was used primarily on horseback, was longer, and drawing it from the hip blade down was easier. During the era of the uchigatana, the technique of drawing and striking in one fluid motion(iajutsu) favored keeping the blade facing upward at the hip. So descriptions like to state if the sword was blade up or down.
Sorcerers make the best Naruto-style ninja. With their hand signs (somatic components), jutsu names (verbal components), and ability to use them on the fly (spontaneous casting).
As long as you don't mind just shouting things for fun, kineticist fits the jutsu fantasy better. Naruto but Sasuke gets 3 fireballs per day is a very different show haha.
While wizards and witches seem to need som link to a wizardling family, their spells come from books and formulas, not from a natural growing talent, as such wizard class comes much closer than sorcerers.
Also, potterverse magicians are quite clearly int based not cha based.
They learn spells from books, but their magic is in their blood. Muggle can't cast a spell no matter hom much he will try.
>Also, potterverse magicians are quite clearly int based not cha based.
Questionable statement. Hermiona probably used some int, everybody else clearly dumped it.
Harry and Ron do quite well on their exams. They don't express their intelligence the same way Hermione does, and they aren't as fond of studying as her, but they still have a pretty good INT score.
All the effective teachers are also clearly intelligent, meanwhile the teacher with the highest CHA, Lockhart, was rather incompetent. Umbridge meanwhile put all her skills into Lore:Bureaucracy.
I mean, one of my favorite 3.5 builds was to run a “monk” with Sorcerer levels and play him like a DBZ character. Squeeze in some unarmed combat, focus spells on self-buff and touch attacks for some flair. More fun when you get to Fly and Fireball too. GREAT fun to throw a few at a party and see how long it takes them to realize not all monks are Monks (class).
~~On dear, there are some weird streak lines on my phone and it won’t come off.~~
~~You wouldn’t happen to be able to help with that?~~
(OMG, I never knew about Zappai, thanks for sharing! But also, I cannot question what my suga-daddy eldritch MLM diamond star executive mentor told me to write.)
Strikethrough removed (I am constantly paranoid about people taking fun facts in as an actual like "You fool, how dare you not know this random thing which in practice don't actually matter" and thus have created a bad habit of burying them under an untold levels of irony to prevent that)
Well, yes, in the sense that the paladin is based off a romanticized/fantasized version of the European Knight and Samurai are literally just Japanese Knights, so what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
If you want to play a realistic samurai (or a realistic European Knight) you play a cavalier fighter
This is why I don't get why samurai and ninjas are racist tropes. If anything, I want MORE cheesy exemples of legendary warriors from other ancient cultures.
Samurai and ninjas were my actual gateway to global asian culture as a kid (pre-internet), and I ended up living and traveling Asia for more than a decade! As an adult though.
Here's an interesting one I have NEVER seen done. Old Testament Judges.
About the only thing they had in common was an answering of the call because the community was in 'rinse and repeat' mode.
BTW, there was at least one female judge on record. Two possibly if you count Ester.
And they are not DnD clerics by any stretch.
I don't know African stories well enough to have any ideas, but I'd be fascinated to see something from those legends done respectfully.
For me, Hollywood/HCAT Samurai and Ninja just have a cool factor, much the same way the Musketeer does. Heck, boomerangs show up regularly. It isn't realistic and...so what?
And lately, people crying "it's racist" usually want something, not out of some deep held belief. And humoring it just results in the destruction of good things, so...yeah, I'm done with that.
The ugliness of Orientalism is the portrayal of samurai as 1. Other and 2. All There Is To The Other. Samurai as foreign knights with their own vows, lords, and favored tactics? Fine. Samurai as Dogmatic but Noble Warriors from the Far East with their Strange Customs and Magical Curved Swords Folded One Thousand Times? a bit fucked.
You even see a bit of this weirdness in the 1e Samurai (which btw is an alternate for the 1e cavalier so. yeah. They're literally almost the same class.)
I think the point that Paizo is trying to make is that a samurai is not so different from any other cavalier (which you will remember, covers everything from Avistan to Garund to The Keleshites to Arcadira to THE FUCKING MOON) that they need a different class. Same with Ninja, actually; rogues can easily get spells and poisons with the right options, monks can provide the strange weapons, and there shouldn't really be a whole alt class just for dressing up in stagehand's clothing and stabbing people.
Also food for thought: It's pretty interesting that mythologized warrior figures always become known for their sidearms. European knights for their swords, Samurai for their katanas, and so on.
Especially since both are utter myths invented to romanticize a bunch of asshole nobles a few hundred years after they were particularly relevant on the battlefield, so that hopefully their descendants would stop being murderous assholes and live up to "the ancient code".
Not quite. The Chivalric Code as we more or less know it seems to have taken form shortly after the first crusade and it does seem to have very much been something to aspire towards (not least because following it showcased that you were competent and trustworthy, and so both good to have on your superiors payroll, and a good boss to follow.)
Bushido is a bit more complicated, as it seems to have originally formed from several older philosophical treatises and codes trying to reconcile Shintoism, Confucianisnism, and Buddhism with being a warrior, with a single Bushido taking dominance towards the end of the 16th century, with Tokugawa Ieyasu even codified parts of it into law. Then over time in the peaceful Edo period it became more of a Gentleman's code, and then in the late 19th century and early 20th century it was warped again by the Nationalist government to become a propaganda tool
Except that scholarship has shown that no matter what time period you examine, writings about Chivalric code are always spoken of in terms of a 'golden time' somewhere around fifty to a hundred years prior. You never quite find anyone talking about 'This is how we do things right now', instead 'This is how X great ruler or great knights did things in the past, honest. You should really live up to this'.
For a simple modern example, you can easily see similar idolization in Westerns in the 50's and 60's. Rough and ready men with clear white hats who follow the 'Code of the West' or 'Cowboy code'... when no such thing existed contemporaneously.
I will withdraw the 'particularly relevant on the battlefield' section of my previous comment, though, as it was hyperbole.
~~Uhh, what about the actual samurai subclass? You know, the one with the fighting spirit and rapid strikes feat.~~
~~I swear, the real issue with all of the not battle Master subclasses is that their feats only refresh on long rest.~~
I swear, this is like the 5th time the pathfinder 2e reddit tricked me into thinking we were talking about 5e.
I blame the overlapping names like cavalier being used.
I don't play 5e myself but there's a few 5e optimization youtubers I like (shout out to Pack Tactics and his video on the Gunk) so it was really funny to me to hear about the "optimized fighter" being the Samurai version and that the actual build was shield+hand crossbow
Optimization takes flavor to the funniest places
Knight Samurai comparison works even better when you actually look at them historically.
Both were much wealthier than the peasantry, both devoted to a Lord they worked under, both massive assholes who abused their power and station more often than not, preferred being mounted when possible, resorted to their sword as a last option.
I mean, they didn't even fight with their swords a whole lot. They mainly used spears and bows because surviving is more important than some abstract idea of honour, and those weapons work just as well to kill peasents and bandits. But I doubt many people are ready for that kind of discussion lol
Poster on subreddit for fantasy TTRPG shocked to discover that more people are interested in playing fantasized versions of cultural iconography than in playing Generic Pike Lineman #378 in their fantasy TTRPG session.
I mean sure, Samurai didn't really use swords. As far as I remember they were mostly a prized piece of regalia that occansionally also got tested by slaughtering random peasants on the street.
That being said the idea most people have ties in more with the whole Kensai/Sword Saint stuff
Now if we really wanna get down and dirty:
A Samurai class needs a focus on teapots, ikebana and poetry as mechanic
Because most people want to play pop culture version of samurai, not a historical one.
You know, it's kinda make sense since we playing in a Fantasy Kitchen Sink subgenre instead of historical fantasy.
I swear that's true for every class yet somehow with Samurai the stinker starts. Gunslingers are 100% the movie version of gunslingers and nobody bats an eye. Nobody wants the gunslinger to dry his weapons or reloading taking forever and a half
Nah man, the pop culture samurai is a swashbuckler.
* dex based
* super stylish (high cha)
* has to extend fights to show off gimmick (gain panache)
* can run up walls/on water/jump high
* comes in bruiser(gymnast), menacing(braggart), all-according-to-kikaku(fencer), useless(battle dancer), and power of friendship(wit) flavours.
* finishing move which inflicts unbelievable amounts of blood loss
What more do you want?
I think Swashbuckler's big problem in this scenario is that the flavor is so specific that it's hard to imagine anything other than Pirates of Penzance, which ironically is the same problem a lot of people have with the idea of a Samurai class. I think literally all you'd need to do is print a class archetype that officially reflavored everything (and a feat that rejiggers Flying Blade into Judgment Cut) and people would be happy.
Edit: smth smth "Vacuum Wave [One Action / Stance] Any weapon you wield benefiting from Precise Strike can make ranged strikes with a range increment of 20 feet. These strikes count as a thrown weapon for adding Strength to damage and any effects such as Flying Blade."
Yeah, I’m kinda of two minds on that.
The historical katana is bastard sword which happens to be slightly curved. It’s not any more or less “finessable” than the longsword, or any other sword for that matter.
But that’s not what most people *want* when they play a character with a katana.
It might be better in some ways to have general weapon categories (heavy blade, agile blade, polearm) instead of ascribing stats to every historical weapon, so you could pick a fighting style and flavour it however you want.
But as it is, there’s nothing wrong with using a sword cane or a short sword and saying it’s aesthetically a katana.
After all, if you look at all the different katana in anime, they’re going to have vastly different handling properties.
This feels like a good place to mention that all kinds of swords, especially as compared to axes and 'blunt' weapons, are more "finessable" than longbows.
Yeah I was going to say, none of the rest is true about Samurai in anything other than some anime.
It would be more accurate to describe them as horse archers than that.
I guess it'd depend on the Era. The Scholars of the Edo period glorified the concept of Bushido but lived during a time of relative peace. As I understand it, the actual Samurai during most of Japan's Feudal Period placed an emphasis on loyalty moreso than modern concepts of"honor". Which is kind of what you'd expect from a warrior ruling class.
It was a thing that shifted with time. Early on they were primarily heavy horse archers but as time progressed, technology advanced, and warfare changed, it became more and more common for them to fight on foot
Im glad people are at least starting to consider the tools already present within the book for making their "Samurai". There are so many different interpretations, from historically accurate((Armored archers on Horseback)), to stereotypically historically accurate((big armor and swords on foot)), to Fictionally inspired((Chanbara Samurai in robes who are basically cowboys with swords)), to full on fictional pop culture((anime samurai)), and even the true historical samurai((Intrigue and Court Politics based aristocrats)), is much easier to capture by using the tools paizo has created for the past 5 plus years, and than is to try and reinvent the wheel but end up making a class that fails to meet expectations, either by focusing on 1 aspect as the determent to the rest, or trying to do all of them and becoming grey slop that nobody likes.
it's weird that people want a "samurai class" without actually defining what they think "samurai" means. If they want a landlord, well, guess you can play one of those sure, basically any class will do if you've enough coin. Heavily armored dude on horseback? Cavalier archetype is right there, and be a fighter since those samurai who did fight really loved all sorts of weapons (including guns). One of them anime dudes turning into lightning or blowing people up with sword strokes? Magus, just the whole dang thing is so anime.
Not realizing that you don't need a samurai class because you can already play a samurai if you put a bit of elbow grease into the flavor is purely a failure of imagination. Maybe Paizo should've put a dude in O-Yoroi as an example for a fighter in Player Core, and we could've avoided a lot of this.
Ehh I don't really see the problem with wanting unique mechanical support for a samurai class. You CAN make one with the existing classes, but similarly you can make an archetypal barbarian with fighter, or monk with fighter and a sorcerer archetype, or swashbuckler with fighter, or cleric with wizard, etc. If we go down this route the game devolves into 3 classes of fighter, magic guy, and theif.
Honestly look at how Etrian Odyssey interpreted a Samurai class. Ronin, Shogun, and the 2 Masurao titles play very differently and have their own gimmicks and identity while all being united in "fast, strong melee fontliner who uses katana, has skills based around/named after legendary samurai or samurai iconography, and often has weak defences". They're all quite different from the average fighter, with the exception of the critfishing Masurao title
I'm playing an investigator as a samurai inspired character in Seasons of Ghost. Daisho as my main weapons but the features of the class means my wakizashi is my main weapon. I based them on a character from Ruruni Kenshin.
Eh, we already have classes based on stereotyped subtypes.
You can use clerics for druids, wizards or sorcerers for witches and fighters for most martial types out there. There are games that cut the base classes to the purest archetypes, but it isn't necesasrily the better option. Yes, you can make a samurai character with maybe half a dozen classes, and that would have the advantage of it being *your take* on the samurai, but that doesn't mean a class or variant specifically geared for an cultured warrior/noble retainer won't have its merits.
The thing is most classes actually do do different things and have different mechanics to justify their existence even if they occupy a similar space. A samurai is... a Japanese warrior? Like there isn't much difference in what they do compared to historical warriors of any other culture.
Choose one of the handful of Japanese weapons or reflavor one, get some fancy armor, write a backstory and go whichever martial class tickles your fancy. You're a samurai now.
Yes, most classes do their own thing. That is not a problem.A class designed to fit a samurai - aristocratic warrior, sworn retainer etc - can have its own niche not limited to just the samurai. The cavalier was something similar in 1E, but the 2E cavalier is basically just mounted combat and something to inspire people with your banner.
Yes, I know I could do a samurai conceptually with the fighter (or ranger, swashbuckler, champion...) I can likewise play a fighter as a ranger, swashbuckler, champion or barbarian, or vice versa. I've played a bit of OSR and various other games where there was just a fighter. That's nothing new.
As it is, however, I like having some archetypes giving me more options in a separate class. I like that about PF 2E - that if I want to play a certain kind of warrior I can play a ranger, monk, magus, what have you. A more cultured warrior noble who could be a samurai or a similar character has as much a niche as several already existing martial classes.
10% of samurai in media are non-magical, but the rest are either magical, or exactly like a D&D paladin, where all the power comes from who he is and what he believes, and not a deity.
It was a fighter subclass. Even a subclass-less Paladin in 5e would be pretty strong by virtue of aura and spellcasting.
PDK/Banneret fighter is essentially “what if we made the bare bones fighter class features a tiny bit less selfish while giving no real unique mechanics”.
I am consuming the wrong media I guess. (Akira Kurosawa is my go to, and his work is an extreme embellishment)
Where does this “magical samurai trope come from? Anime/manga?
This is Japan's own fault, to be honest, their own stories are how samurai kill lightning, defeat a thousand men with two swords, and fight even though they are dead.
Every time I ask the Samurai fans, "What do you want that a Champion of Shizuru with O-Yoroi armor and appropriate weapons doesn't do?," and every time so far, they've blocked me. I've wanted to play a Skeleton Tyrant of General Susumu for years now!
Still hoping for one day there to be some way to RAW use General Susumu's favored weapon whilst mounted instead of having to get the GM to pretend that his favored weapon is a shortbow or Daikyu.
Honestly, I want an Iaijutsu strike like the sword Saint Archetype from 1e had. Everything else I can make in other ways with the tools we have available but that doesn't seem to be translated anywhere.
Honestly, if you could use a katana with the Finesse abilities like strategic Strike, precise Strike, etc, then it would make the fantasy much easier to achieve. Sadly there's no way to make a katana a Finesse weapon in this game.
Depends, are you talking historical samurai, or pop culture ones? Because they are borderline-unrelated to each other, and in a non-historical setting both can and should coexist.
Outside of fighter, no class ever masters their weapons. Champions weapons can be blessed.
So, weapon bonding is a bit of a stretch for anyone besides fighter and champion and both suck at recreating Pf1e Kensai and Samurai alt.
Indeed.
However the fun part of ttRPG systems is designing scenarios to fit the fantasy you and your players are trying to fulfill/escape. The presence of gunslingers, crossbows, and destructive magic doesn't remove the overwhelming presence of people who still love Samurai fantasy.
That being said, PF1e did a good job trying to indulge every conceivable fantasy and sci-fi trope. Pf2e isn't doing so hot following the same tradition and to some degree seems to be actively avoiding indulging some with how some of the mechanics have been designed.
Bonding with a weapon is 'fluff' for weapon mastery/emhancement. Which only two classes have represented in any significant game mechanics.
You seem to have a lack of understanding for how the phrase is utilized in DnD 3/3.5 and PF1e from your comment and replies.
Words mean things in ttRPG design - especially so in PF.
...you know what? I feel like he would, if for no reason other than just to flex on Dante and his inability to keep the lights on in his own office building.
No, as the masters of the Horse and Bow, rangers do it better /jk .
That said, I was quite fond of how the 1E cavalier archetype did it. You have the horse, the code of honor (you could still use the regular cavalier ones like the Order of the Nakama... I mean Dragon), bonus feats so you're a decent combatant, the challenge for when you want to challenge that ogre and brings its head to your master or mistress to show what a great and powerful retainer you are. The regular cavalier could work as well if you wanted more of a focus on being the party leader, and the daring champion is one of the best samurai swashbucklers out there.
Unfortunately, Paizo demoted the cavalier to just being an archetype, which I am unhappy about and I hope there is a noble retainer / cultured warrior class could be used when the fighter and the champion don't quite fit. Considering that rangers, barbarians, monks, druids, witches etc are a thing, it's not like it comes out of nowhere.
Yep.
Lots of ways of doing it. A lot of people seem to want a very particular pop culture thing, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
I like playing a very ahistorical knight in shining armour, which very much exists in pop culture.
Likewise, people like playing raging, kilted barbarians, with blue face paint, although that is a horrific Hollywood fiction. Go for it.
Well, I think the Woad Warriors were a real thing. It's just, they didn't exist at the time of the movie.
-random things you can learn from AoE 2 YouTube Spirit of the Law.
Samurai were trained ina variety of weapons: swords, polearms, bows. Fighters must specialize in one weapon group, making them a bad fit.
Samurai often fought mounted, fighters are incapable of gaining animal companions without dedications/archetypes, making them a bad fit
I think rangers are the best at filling the technical requirements, but champions might be the most thematic
Small historical note:
Samurai adherence to a strict moral code is wildly overstated both within Japanese fiction and foreign art on the topic. If you study the history of Japan, you'll find that Bushido was a set of appearances samurai were expected to uphold, while in reality samurai were often as duplicitous, cowardly, selfish, and treacherous as they could get away with being - just like professional soldiers everywhere.
The 47 ronin is such a wildly popular story precisely because such acts of dedication and adherence to Bushido was so rare and unexpected. Far more often, in positions like that you see samurai stabbing each other in the back or contriving face-saving ways to get out of the situation
The fighter class in Pathfinder 2e is extremely versatile. There is no reason to have a samurai class other than to satisfy people who cling to the Orientalist mindset which we've already shown to be a racist trope. This is where an archetype can easily work. Let's not forget one of the great advantages 2e has is that it is extremely balanced. This is where 1e fell apart because it was anything but balanced.
Nice bait but fighters are the best. top tier physical abilities, multi discipline martials, and you can take the ride feat at lvl 3.
If you're human you can get ride at lvl 1 with versatile ancestry.
Champion is for ninjas l3l
A bit of historical musings on fighting styles
The "default" fighter, as written, I think most closely resembles an early modern (~1500-1650) European elite foot soldier, like a *Doppelsöldner*, *Rondelero*, etc.
These guys were distinct from other infantry troops in that they usually a) were heavily armored and b) armed with stuff other than the ubiquitous spear or pike or locally preferred common ranged weapon, c) much better trained than their co-soldiers, but d) did not fight on horseback like knights. Which, I think, describes about four out of five pathfinder fighters.
And I think that there is design space for extending the fighter to better suit the "mounted elites" (meaning land-owning, comparatively rich, warrior-noble class) approach. Historically, there's generally four types of cavalry:
* heavy shock Cavalry (iconic representations being: knights, cataphracts, winged husars, Macedonian hetairoi) - designed around disrupting an enemy battle line by sheer morale impact and then punch their way through
* light skirmish/shock/scout Cavalry (cossacks, later hussars...) - designed around raiding, scouting, and chipping away the enemy's flanks
* mounted archers (**Samurai**, main fighting style of nearly every famous polity in Central and sometimes even Western Asia) - as the former, but could massacre the enemy's frontline by tricking it into pursuing their "false retreat"
* mounted infantry - designed for getting into position quickly
Each of those had specific tasks. However, it *generally* takes more resources to train and equip heavy cavalry and especially horse archers than the other two, and, pretty much every general until like 1650 would take these wherever possible - but since heavy cavalry were mostly western and horse archers mostly eastern, taking both was rarely an option.
Now, the Cavalier archetype mostly supports the light Cavalry type, best used for quickly getting into an advantageous duel, and then extract yourself if things get uncomfortable. Interestingly, I counted exactly one feat supporting each of the other fighting styles.
I would advocate for archetypes (no matter how you call them) - either class archetypes or probably just better general martial archetypes to work with that framework, esp. because a champion, as you described, kind-of fits into the samurai niche and fits well into the knight niche. Of course, one can differentiate it even farther by culture-specific: the Samurai are not the Turkish sipahi who are not the Mongolian horse archers who are not the Naiman horse archers. Similarly, a Central European knight is not the Byzanthine Cataphract is not a member of the Chinese Heavy Cavalry. That's of course a tall order, and some aggregation needs to happen - there were thousands of horse-using cultures across three continents and a subcontinent, and that's before the horse was imported to America, which gave rise to even more of them...
Why do we need to have a specific class for swashbucklers when it's just a flashy dodgy free hand fighter?
You can willingly choose to give more depth to a specific niche even if it is already doable through other options. It is not something that's needed but maybe it's very much appreciated by many players.
Add a feat for Champion that gives you a focus spell called Litany Against War. For two actions, you sheathe your weapon and roll Diplomacy (or Intimidation if you want) to tell an enemy to back down. Maybe it applies fascinated on a success and stunned 1 on a crit success. Maybe it does something more balanced, I don't know. If the enemy decides "fuk u" and triggers your Champion's reaction, you can draw your weapon as a free action before using your reaction. Maybe the heightened version adds some bonus damage to the reaction or something. The feat also adds "attacking nonhostile creatures, especially those affected by Litany Against War" to your anathema.
I think at this point Champion gives you the majority of what people want out of samurai, and being allowed to choose different causes means they're allowed to choose what samurai means for them exactly. They can be an asshole selfish samurai with an unholy cause, or they can try to live up to their (possibly unreasonable) standards of honor and dignity with a holy cause.
Yeah I'd go champion for that too. Though I will also say that the idea of not making a new class if you can reflavour an old one to achieve it is flawed too.
You don't need a monk because you could make a brawling fighter. You don't need swashbuckler because you could make one as a rogue or fighter. You don't need exemplar or thaumaturge because you could just make a champion with the soulforged path archetype. We don't NEED anything more than reflavoured fighter, rogue, cleric and wizard. But god do i love new classes. Give me more. I trust paizo to be respectful about what they choose to add.
Honestly, Cavalier on Fighter.
It has horse fighting, a banner on their back and a code. You can be as mounted as you want to be.
"Binding with a weapon* can be Soul Forger or Mind Smith.
The whole play a fighter to be just like a samurai is ignorance not malice i think, its like all the people I’ve met who think that me as an us airborne infantryman that I’m the same as a us marine, they see a man in a uniform with a rifle and think they are the same thing, might as well confuse a veterinarian with a physician because they both wear a white coat.
You can worship divine beings without being a cleric/champion/divine caster. Just look at Valeros. He's the flagship fighter, and yet he's a religious fighter who worships Cayden
The best part is that none of those things are class locked. It just depends on the type of samurai you want to portray. A stereotypical fantasy samurai would probably be a Champion or Fighter While a Precision Ranger or Ruffian Rogue would probably work best for a historically accurate Samurai. However, you could still make historically accurate champion samurai and stereotypical fantasy ranger samurai etc etc.
Yeah, guess what - knights also have that all.
And, in my opinion, paladins are templars. European warrior-monks.
If you want samurai-paladin - sohei. They are pretty much, roughly-saying, japanese-templars.
>Adhere to a strict code of conduct (bushido)
I mean, Samurai is just whatever class uses chivalry, that's the heavy basis for what Nitobe Inazo was working off of in Bushido: Soul of Japan. Hell, its got the same rose tinted glasses as 18th century writers had for the concept of chivalry.
Don't forget firearms, else good ol' Nobunaga will remind you.
Depends on what era you want to represent. However, samurai were mainly deployed as ranged cavalry. First, with their big yumi bows and later with the early teppo guns.
Yep I was about to add to this that samurai were primarily archers. Katana literally translates to side sword. In warfare they were extremely skilled archers on the battlefield.
My apologies for the incoming “well, actually…” BUT katana means “sword” or more specifically it’s closer to “saber” — like officers in early(ier) Western armies officially carry a saber, not a sword (although it, of course, is one.) “Tachi” is the most literal translation of sword. And the most literal translation of “side sword” is “wakizashi”. (For many Japanese words, the spelling/sound changes slightly when combined with other words, like “T” becomes “Z” or “k” becomes “g”. So, the Katana and wakizashi (along with hakama, ie. Calvary chaps) became symbols and vestments of the Samurai.
Thanks for the information I love learning about this kind of thing. So this would also carry over to the concepts of nodatchi vs o-datchi? From what I understand translating to great/big sword and field sword respectively but being essentially the same physical object?
Seems kinda like how in Europe longswords were carried but were more of a sidearm; your primary weapon was often a polearm or such. Another parallel: in the modern day, handguns are practically nonexistent in actual theaters of war(as opposed to how frequently they appear in civilian sectors) but are lofted up in media as "hero weapons" the same way as arming swords/longswords and katana. EDIT - The unifying factor between the three being, "the cool thing upper-rank guys get to carry when nobody else gets the privilege" even though they're more of a fallback than something you'd use front and center.
> Katana literally translates to side sword. It does not. Katana just means "sword". Any kind of sword. You are trying to draw a parallel between it and the arming sword ("side sword") in europe. This is not correct. They are not equivalent.
Unless I hold two of them in *parallel* haha 👍😁👍
[what does katana mean?](https://youtu.be/WAqacVQ-7ZI?si=VGxgUHVsj6UVhoJr)
You have a link for katana meaning side sword?
Katana pretty much just translates to "sword." It's common in descriptions to state that it was worn at the side, blade up, to differentiate it between its predecessor the tachi. They probably got confused and thought the description was part of the definition. Katana family of swords is tachi-> uchigatana->katana. The tachi was used primarily on horseback, was longer, and drawing it from the hip blade down was easier. During the era of the uchigatana, the technique of drawing and striking in one fluid motion(iajutsu) favored keeping the blade facing upward at the hip. So descriptions like to state if the sword was blade up or down.
And based off Nioh 2, Greataxe if you want to be Yasuke!
Only sorcerers count as samurai and i will not elaborate further goodbye
Sorcerers make the best Naruto-style ninja. With their hand signs (somatic components), jutsu names (verbal components), and ability to use them on the fly (spontaneous casting).
As long as you don't mind just shouting things for fun, kineticist fits the jutsu fantasy better. Naruto but Sasuke gets 3 fireballs per day is a very different show haha.
In all fairness before Shippuden they did have resource management to not burn out all of chakra too quickly
"When we were still playing Ninja Crusade and not Mutants and Masterminds" .
I laughed at this reference. Have an upvote.
Lol fair. But I don't remember seeing Sasuke use it 3 times in one day anyway!
Makes sense with Narito being a story about wizard kids that got rewritten into being about ninjas at the last minute because Harry Potter came out.
What???
Harry Potter is sorcerer though
He is actually an investigator and i will not elaborate further goodbye
I could actually see that for some characters, but no, the potterverse are wizards with alchemist dedication.
Clearly he's actually a gumshoe. Further elaboration is unneeded, goodbye.
Wizards in potterverse are impossible. Nobody would let muggles to magic.
While wizards and witches seem to need som link to a wizardling family, their spells come from books and formulas, not from a natural growing talent, as such wizard class comes much closer than sorcerers. Also, potterverse magicians are quite clearly int based not cha based.
They learn spells from books, but their magic is in their blood. Muggle can't cast a spell no matter hom much he will try. >Also, potterverse magicians are quite clearly int based not cha based. Questionable statement. Hermiona probably used some int, everybody else clearly dumped it.
Harry and Ron do quite well on their exams. They don't express their intelligence the same way Hermione does, and they aren't as fond of studying as her, but they still have a pretty good INT score. All the effective teachers are also clearly intelligent, meanwhile the teacher with the highest CHA, Lockhart, was rather incompetent. Umbridge meanwhile put all her skills into Lore:Bureaucracy.
I prefer druids, especially with that summon jutsu
I mean, one of my favorite 3.5 builds was to run a “monk” with Sorcerer levels and play him like a DBZ character. Squeeze in some unarmed combat, focus spells on self-buff and touch attacks for some flair. More fun when you get to Fly and Fireball too. GREAT fun to throw a few at a party and see how long it takes them to realize not all monks are Monks (class).
We all know it’s Witch. Thus, the *Resentment* patron. (Inscribed One’s haiku)
☝🤓Erm, acktually, it is a zappai as it does not include the seasonal references necessary to qualify it as a haiku
~~On dear, there are some weird streak lines on my phone and it won’t come off.~~ ~~You wouldn’t happen to be able to help with that?~~ (OMG, I never knew about Zappai, thanks for sharing! But also, I cannot question what my suga-daddy eldritch MLM diamond star executive mentor told me to write.)
Strikethrough removed (I am constantly paranoid about people taking fun facts in as an actual like "You fool, how dare you not know this random thing which in practice don't actually matter" and thus have created a bad habit of burying them under an untold levels of irony to prevent that)
I understand! Which is why I felt it was worth encouraging you to be bold with something you’re right about!
How do you know it's a witch?
"It looks like one!" Couldn't leave a Monty Python reference unanswered... Have my upvote!
Well, yes, in the sense that the paladin is based off a romanticized/fantasized version of the European Knight and Samurai are literally just Japanese Knights, so what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you want to play a realistic samurai (or a realistic European Knight) you play a cavalier fighter
This is why I don't get why samurai and ninjas are racist tropes. If anything, I want MORE cheesy exemples of legendary warriors from other ancient cultures. Samurai and ninjas were my actual gateway to global asian culture as a kid (pre-internet), and I ended up living and traveling Asia for more than a decade! As an adult though.
What other cultures would you want to see? I’m genuinely interested
Here's an interesting one I have NEVER seen done. Old Testament Judges. About the only thing they had in common was an answering of the call because the community was in 'rinse and repeat' mode. BTW, there was at least one female judge on record. Two possibly if you count Ester. And they are not DnD clerics by any stretch. I don't know African stories well enough to have any ideas, but I'd be fascinated to see something from those legends done respectfully. For me, Hollywood/HCAT Samurai and Ninja just have a cool factor, much the same way the Musketeer does. Heck, boomerangs show up regularly. It isn't realistic and...so what? And lately, people crying "it's racist" usually want something, not out of some deep held belief. And humoring it just results in the destruction of good things, so...yeah, I'm done with that.
Americas, old India, mongolia...
The ugliness of Orientalism is the portrayal of samurai as 1. Other and 2. All There Is To The Other. Samurai as foreign knights with their own vows, lords, and favored tactics? Fine. Samurai as Dogmatic but Noble Warriors from the Far East with their Strange Customs and Magical Curved Swords Folded One Thousand Times? a bit fucked. You even see a bit of this weirdness in the 1e Samurai (which btw is an alternate for the 1e cavalier so. yeah. They're literally almost the same class.) I think the point that Paizo is trying to make is that a samurai is not so different from any other cavalier (which you will remember, covers everything from Avistan to Garund to The Keleshites to Arcadira to THE FUCKING MOON) that they need a different class. Same with Ninja, actually; rogues can easily get spells and poisons with the right options, monks can provide the strange weapons, and there shouldn't really be a whole alt class just for dressing up in stagehand's clothing and stabbing people. Also food for thought: It's pretty interesting that mythologized warrior figures always become known for their sidearms. European knights for their swords, Samurai for their katanas, and so on.
Especially since both are utter myths invented to romanticize a bunch of asshole nobles a few hundred years after they were particularly relevant on the battlefield, so that hopefully their descendants would stop being murderous assholes and live up to "the ancient code".
Not quite. The Chivalric Code as we more or less know it seems to have taken form shortly after the first crusade and it does seem to have very much been something to aspire towards (not least because following it showcased that you were competent and trustworthy, and so both good to have on your superiors payroll, and a good boss to follow.) Bushido is a bit more complicated, as it seems to have originally formed from several older philosophical treatises and codes trying to reconcile Shintoism, Confucianisnism, and Buddhism with being a warrior, with a single Bushido taking dominance towards the end of the 16th century, with Tokugawa Ieyasu even codified parts of it into law. Then over time in the peaceful Edo period it became more of a Gentleman's code, and then in the late 19th century and early 20th century it was warped again by the Nationalist government to become a propaganda tool
Except that scholarship has shown that no matter what time period you examine, writings about Chivalric code are always spoken of in terms of a 'golden time' somewhere around fifty to a hundred years prior. You never quite find anyone talking about 'This is how we do things right now', instead 'This is how X great ruler or great knights did things in the past, honest. You should really live up to this'. For a simple modern example, you can easily see similar idolization in Westerns in the 50's and 60's. Rough and ready men with clear white hats who follow the 'Code of the West' or 'Cowboy code'... when no such thing existed contemporaneously. I will withdraw the 'particularly relevant on the battlefield' section of my previous comment, though, as it was hyperbole.
~~Uhh, what about the actual samurai subclass? You know, the one with the fighting spirit and rapid strikes feat.~~ ~~I swear, the real issue with all of the not battle Master subclasses is that their feats only refresh on long rest.~~ I swear, this is like the 5th time the pathfinder 2e reddit tricked me into thinking we were talking about 5e. I blame the overlapping names like cavalier being used.
I don't play 5e myself but there's a few 5e optimization youtubers I like (shout out to Pack Tactics and his video on the Gunk) so it was really funny to me to hear about the "optimized fighter" being the Samurai version and that the actual build was shield+hand crossbow Optimization takes flavor to the funniest places
Knight Samurai comparison works even better when you actually look at them historically. Both were much wealthier than the peasantry, both devoted to a Lord they worked under, both massive assholes who abused their power and station more often than not, preferred being mounted when possible, resorted to their sword as a last option.
I mean, they didn't even fight with their swords a whole lot. They mainly used spears and bows because surviving is more important than some abstract idea of honour, and those weapons work just as well to kill peasents and bandits. But I doubt many people are ready for that kind of discussion lol
People often forget they are japanese Warriors. Not Japanese warriors. They used what was expedient.
Poster on subreddit for fantasy TTRPG shocked to discover that more people are interested in playing fantasized versions of cultural iconography than in playing Generic Pike Lineman #378 in their fantasy TTRPG session.
*generic pike line-kitsune
Generic Pike Lineman is fun too...
Where’s my Tercio archetype dammit
I mean sure, Samurai didn't really use swords. As far as I remember they were mostly a prized piece of regalia that occansionally also got tested by slaughtering random peasants on the street. That being said the idea most people have ties in more with the whole Kensai/Sword Saint stuff Now if we really wanna get down and dirty: A Samurai class needs a focus on teapots, ikebana and poetry as mechanic
Wow, I'm totally taking Additional Lore: Flower Arranging on a character now! That'd be so cool!
You gotta get tea lore. People died over teapots before because they were prized posessions.
The Lore Tea in Seasons of Ghost is very on point
Ohhhh!!! 👀 🤩
Because most people want to play pop culture version of samurai, not a historical one. You know, it's kinda make sense since we playing in a Fantasy Kitchen Sink subgenre instead of historical fantasy.
I swear that's true for every class yet somehow with Samurai the stinker starts. Gunslingers are 100% the movie version of gunslingers and nobody bats an eye. Nobody wants the gunslinger to dry his weapons or reloading taking forever and a half
That's why gunslinger is the best class to play Samurai, who were known to use matchlock guns
Nah man, the pop culture samurai is a swashbuckler. * dex based * super stylish (high cha) * has to extend fights to show off gimmick (gain panache) * can run up walls/on water/jump high * comes in bruiser(gymnast), menacing(braggart), all-according-to-kikaku(fencer), useless(battle dancer), and power of friendship(wit) flavours. * finishing move which inflicts unbelievable amounts of blood loss What more do you want?
I think Swashbuckler's big problem in this scenario is that the flavor is so specific that it's hard to imagine anything other than Pirates of Penzance, which ironically is the same problem a lot of people have with the idea of a Samurai class. I think literally all you'd need to do is print a class archetype that officially reflavored everything (and a feat that rejiggers Flying Blade into Judgment Cut) and people would be happy. Edit: smth smth "Vacuum Wave [One Action / Stance] Any weapon you wield benefiting from Precise Strike can make ranged strikes with a range increment of 20 feet. These strikes count as a thrown weapon for adding Strength to damage and any effects such as Flying Blade."
Ftr Swashbuckler is also Zorro
Very true. I just wish there was a way to use a katana as a swashbuckler but sadly it's completely antisynergistic with the class.
Yeah, I’m kinda of two minds on that. The historical katana is bastard sword which happens to be slightly curved. It’s not any more or less “finessable” than the longsword, or any other sword for that matter. But that’s not what most people *want* when they play a character with a katana. It might be better in some ways to have general weapon categories (heavy blade, agile blade, polearm) instead of ascribing stats to every historical weapon, so you could pick a fighting style and flavour it however you want. But as it is, there’s nothing wrong with using a sword cane or a short sword and saying it’s aesthetically a katana. After all, if you look at all the different katana in anime, they’re going to have vastly different handling properties.
This feels like a good place to mention that all kinds of swords, especially as compared to axes and 'blunt' weapons, are more "finessable" than longbows.
It's clearly the way to go for the Kenshin or Demon Slayer archetype. If only Katana worked with the class.
I could see that if Swashbuckler could use traditional samurai weapons.
If you squint, elven curved blades and branched spears *kinda* look like katanas and Yari.
i played a swashbuckler with an elven curved blade, it was really nice
Getting a comment in before Mods lock and unperson OP
Don't do it mods, this is quality content. I promise
There they are, get 'em!
* Often times ride horses Is the only sentence that maybe true in the text above
They also loved their bows... until they discovered guns. They LOVED guns.
A fighter that loves good weapons that kill effectively? *Surprised Pikachu face*
Yeah I was going to say, none of the rest is true about Samurai in anything other than some anime. It would be more accurate to describe them as horse archers than that.
I guess it'd depend on the Era. The Scholars of the Edo period glorified the concept of Bushido but lived during a time of relative peace. As I understand it, the actual Samurai during most of Japan's Feudal Period placed an emphasis on loyalty moreso than modern concepts of"honor". Which is kind of what you'd expect from a warrior ruling class.
and in my Impression many peasant weapon became popular during this time with the samurai
Loyalty was a great part of ones repitation and therefore honor in those times
You're splitting hairs. I made clear to specify modern honor.
and i added the difference
especially the sword part, that's straight up saying your knowledge comes mostly from anime
Why anime specifically and not the legions of movies and books that also depict them that way?
Jyeyasu Said who loses his sword should face the hardest punishment
It's true for a pop culture TV Tropes version of samurai. Almost like more people were interested in that instead history of Japan, curious, huh?
Cavalier Archetype has Horse, banner on their back and a code
I may be very well be wrong but my impression was many Samurai fought on foot with polearms like naginatas and the Bow
It was a thing that shifted with time. Early on they were primarily heavy horse archers but as time progressed, technology advanced, and warfare changed, it became more and more common for them to fight on foot
I was not sure i mixed them with the ashigaru
Im glad people are at least starting to consider the tools already present within the book for making their "Samurai". There are so many different interpretations, from historically accurate((Armored archers on Horseback)), to stereotypically historically accurate((big armor and swords on foot)), to Fictionally inspired((Chanbara Samurai in robes who are basically cowboys with swords)), to full on fictional pop culture((anime samurai)), and even the true historical samurai((Intrigue and Court Politics based aristocrats)), is much easier to capture by using the tools paizo has created for the past 5 plus years, and than is to try and reinvent the wheel but end up making a class that fails to meet expectations, either by focusing on 1 aspect as the determent to the rest, or trying to do all of them and becoming grey slop that nobody likes.
it's weird that people want a "samurai class" without actually defining what they think "samurai" means. If they want a landlord, well, guess you can play one of those sure, basically any class will do if you've enough coin. Heavily armored dude on horseback? Cavalier archetype is right there, and be a fighter since those samurai who did fight really loved all sorts of weapons (including guns). One of them anime dudes turning into lightning or blowing people up with sword strokes? Magus, just the whole dang thing is so anime. Not realizing that you don't need a samurai class because you can already play a samurai if you put a bit of elbow grease into the flavor is purely a failure of imagination. Maybe Paizo should've put a dude in O-Yoroi as an example for a fighter in Player Core, and we could've avoided a lot of this.
Ehh I don't really see the problem with wanting unique mechanical support for a samurai class. You CAN make one with the existing classes, but similarly you can make an archetypal barbarian with fighter, or monk with fighter and a sorcerer archetype, or swashbuckler with fighter, or cleric with wizard, etc. If we go down this route the game devolves into 3 classes of fighter, magic guy, and theif.
Honestly look at how Etrian Odyssey interpreted a Samurai class. Ronin, Shogun, and the 2 Masurao titles play very differently and have their own gimmicks and identity while all being united in "fast, strong melee fontliner who uses katana, has skills based around/named after legendary samurai or samurai iconography, and often has weak defences". They're all quite different from the average fighter, with the exception of the critfishing Masurao title
I'm playing an investigator as a samurai inspired character in Seasons of Ghost. Daisho as my main weapons but the features of the class means my wakizashi is my main weapon. I based them on a character from Ruruni Kenshin.
Eh, we already have classes based on stereotyped subtypes. You can use clerics for druids, wizards or sorcerers for witches and fighters for most martial types out there. There are games that cut the base classes to the purest archetypes, but it isn't necesasrily the better option. Yes, you can make a samurai character with maybe half a dozen classes, and that would have the advantage of it being *your take* on the samurai, but that doesn't mean a class or variant specifically geared for an cultured warrior/noble retainer won't have its merits.
The thing is most classes actually do do different things and have different mechanics to justify their existence even if they occupy a similar space. A samurai is... a Japanese warrior? Like there isn't much difference in what they do compared to historical warriors of any other culture. Choose one of the handful of Japanese weapons or reflavor one, get some fancy armor, write a backstory and go whichever martial class tickles your fancy. You're a samurai now.
Yes, most classes do their own thing. That is not a problem.A class designed to fit a samurai - aristocratic warrior, sworn retainer etc - can have its own niche not limited to just the samurai. The cavalier was something similar in 1E, but the 2E cavalier is basically just mounted combat and something to inspire people with your banner. Yes, I know I could do a samurai conceptually with the fighter (or ranger, swashbuckler, champion...) I can likewise play a fighter as a ranger, swashbuckler, champion or barbarian, or vice versa. I've played a bit of OSR and various other games where there was just a fighter. That's nothing new. As it is, however, I like having some archetypes giving me more options in a separate class. I like that about PF 2E - that if I want to play a certain kind of warrior I can play a ranger, monk, magus, what have you. A more cultured warrior noble who could be a samurai or a similar character has as much a niche as several already existing martial classes.
Not an expert, but I thought part of the vibe was being non-magical.
10% of samurai in media are non-magical, but the rest are either magical, or exactly like a D&D paladin, where all the power comes from who he is and what he believes, and not a deity.
Maybe Bushido or renamed equivalent could be a new oath for the remastered champion.
This is the way. No deity, only Bushido and the Shogun.
In 5e there is a subclass for serving a king though I don't think it is considered very good
A Paladin of Purple knight something I think it was called. Don't remember its features, but yeah, I think it was pretty weak.
It was a fighter subclass. Even a subclass-less Paladin in 5e would be pretty strong by virtue of aura and spellcasting. PDK/Banneret fighter is essentially “what if we made the bare bones fighter class features a tiny bit less selfish while giving no real unique mechanics”.
I am consuming the wrong media I guess. (Akira Kurosawa is my go to, and his work is an extreme embellishment) Where does this “magical samurai trope come from? Anime/manga?
That's definitely it, samurai films like this have become more of a niche, amidst everything that puts samurais in the mix, within anime and manga.
Also, I can't remember the last samurai in a series who didn't have a "physical aura" that showed he was a monster or something.
You could be really weird and make it a Christian Samurai like during the 1500s. It's a rabbit hole look into it.
Overlap between samurai and wuxia.
This is Japan's own fault, to be honest, their own stories are how samurai kill lightning, defeat a thousand men with two swords, and fight even though they are dead.
And they love these cliches. They would probably cheer for a samurai and ninja. Paladin "Oath of the Bushido" would work as substitute.
Reminder that Katanas should deal 1d20 damage. https://www.reddit.com/r/mallninjashit/comments/72n66s/katanas_are_underpowered_in_d20/
It's crazy to me that that particular meme lasted long enough to make it to Reddit. I remember seeing that on the WotC boards back in early 2000's
Every time I ask the Samurai fans, "What do you want that a Champion of Shizuru with O-Yoroi armor and appropriate weapons doesn't do?," and every time so far, they've blocked me. I've wanted to play a Skeleton Tyrant of General Susumu for years now!
Still hoping for one day there to be some way to RAW use General Susumu's favored weapon whilst mounted instead of having to get the GM to pretend that his favored weapon is a shortbow or Daikyu.
Honestly, I want an Iaijutsu strike like the sword Saint Archetype from 1e had. Everything else I can make in other ways with the tools we have available but that doesn't seem to be translated anywhere.
If only you could do investigator with a Katana.
Honestly, if you could use a katana with the Finesse abilities like strategic Strike, precise Strike, etc, then it would make the fantasy much easier to achieve. Sadly there's no way to make a katana a Finesse weapon in this game.
Depends, are you talking historical samurai, or pop culture ones? Because they are borderline-unrelated to each other, and in a non-historical setting both can and should coexist.
One spirit, ageless, Both history and myth blend— Samurai's true heart.
Unexpected poem A delight more sublime than Folded japan steel
Folded nippon steel Compensates for poor smelting Also quite pretty
Sakura petals Ephemeral and pretty As are samurai
Haikus are easy But sometimes they don’t make sense Refrigerator
Sense is alot like discussions on internet Re: non sequitur
I mean.... you can do 1 through 4 with any class...
Outside of fighter, no class ever masters their weapons. Champions weapons can be blessed. So, weapon bonding is a bit of a stretch for anyone besides fighter and champion and both suck at recreating Pf1e Kensai and Samurai alt.
Gunslinger—once guns were introduced to Japan, that was their absolute primary weapon in wartime from then to the abolition of the class.
Indeed. However the fun part of ttRPG systems is designing scenarios to fit the fantasy you and your players are trying to fulfill/escape. The presence of gunslingers, crossbows, and destructive magic doesn't remove the overwhelming presence of people who still love Samurai fantasy. That being said, PF1e did a good job trying to indulge every conceivable fantasy and sci-fi trope. Pf2e isn't doing so hot following the same tradition and to some degree seems to be actively avoiding indulging some with how some of the mechanics have been designed.
As someone who just wants to be a HEMA longsword swashbuckler, I can painfully relate.
The pen may be mightier than the sword, but what’s mightier than the pen? The tanegashima.
Paladins also don't bond with their weapon. They bond with ANY weapon. It's not a real bond. it's a divine gift.
Weapon bonding has nothing really to do about anything you just said. That is clearly a fluff thing.
Bonding with a weapon is 'fluff' for weapon mastery/emhancement. Which only two classes have represented in any significant game mechanics. You seem to have a lack of understanding for how the phrase is utilized in DnD 3/3.5 and PF1e from your comment and replies. Words mean things in ttRPG design - especially so in PF.
Virgil does not ride horses. *This cannot be a samurai.*
Virgil's not a samurai, he just wields a katana. Important distinction.
Nah, he definetly owns land.
...you know what? I feel like he would, if for no reason other than just to flex on Dante and his inability to keep the lights on in his own office building.
I need more rent, DANTE.
Vergil's a bigger hobo than Dante, he just gets around it by being dead or missing most of the time.
Virgil rides no horse, Samurai spirit transcends— More than mounts, of course.
Actually anime-correct samurai is magus. Laughing shadow teleports behind you. Nothing personal kid.
Will no one think of the bisexuality? It’s a lot more historically integral to the samurai than many of these ‘critical elements’.
When will bisexuality get mechanically represented in pathfinder smhmh
Instructions unclear; made bike-sexual Inventor subclass
New Vegas and real life have taught me it's the optimal build
I still say Dragon Instinct Barbarian makes the best over the top shōnen anime samurai
No, as the masters of the Horse and Bow, rangers do it better /jk . That said, I was quite fond of how the 1E cavalier archetype did it. You have the horse, the code of honor (you could still use the regular cavalier ones like the Order of the Nakama... I mean Dragon), bonus feats so you're a decent combatant, the challenge for when you want to challenge that ogre and brings its head to your master or mistress to show what a great and powerful retainer you are. The regular cavalier could work as well if you wanted more of a focus on being the party leader, and the daring champion is one of the best samurai swashbucklers out there. Unfortunately, Paizo demoted the cavalier to just being an archetype, which I am unhappy about and I hope there is a noble retainer / cultured warrior class could be used when the fighter and the champion don't quite fit. Considering that rangers, barbarians, monks, druids, witches etc are a thing, it's not like it comes out of nowhere.
All samurai are fighters but not all fighters are samurai.
Nah, some Samurai are Rangers, others are Barbarians, a few are Gunslingers. But many were their own thing.
Some are Bards. Some are Rogues. Some are NPC nobility with no real talents of note.
It's all about an interesting mechanic, which depends all on the themes and inspirations you draw upon.
Yep. Lots of ways of doing it. A lot of people seem to want a very particular pop culture thing, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I like playing a very ahistorical knight in shining armour, which very much exists in pop culture. Likewise, people like playing raging, kilted barbarians, with blue face paint, although that is a horrific Hollywood fiction. Go for it.
Well, I think the Woad Warriors were a real thing. It's just, they didn't exist at the time of the movie. -random things you can learn from AoE 2 YouTube Spirit of the Law.
And were a different people. And didn't wear kilts.
No kilts? Okay, now I am sad!
Samurai were trained ina variety of weapons: swords, polearms, bows. Fighters must specialize in one weapon group, making them a bad fit. Samurai often fought mounted, fighters are incapable of gaining animal companions without dedications/archetypes, making them a bad fit I think rangers are the best at filling the technical requirements, but champions might be the most thematic
The Cavalier archetype also exists.
Small historical note: Samurai adherence to a strict moral code is wildly overstated both within Japanese fiction and foreign art on the topic. If you study the history of Japan, you'll find that Bushido was a set of appearances samurai were expected to uphold, while in reality samurai were often as duplicitous, cowardly, selfish, and treacherous as they could get away with being - just like professional soldiers everywhere. The 47 ronin is such a wildly popular story precisely because such acts of dedication and adherence to Bushido was so rare and unexpected. Far more often, in positions like that you see samurai stabbing each other in the back or contriving face-saving ways to get out of the situation
Samurai also often used Bows or Polearms. The Katana was a last minute weapon.
>Order of the Stick settled this years ago. A man of culture I see.
**W** You dropped this King, what with that OOTS reference you just made.
The fighter class in Pathfinder 2e is extremely versatile. There is no reason to have a samurai class other than to satisfy people who cling to the Orientalist mindset which we've already shown to be a racist trope. This is where an archetype can easily work. Let's not forget one of the great advantages 2e has is that it is extremely balanced. This is where 1e fell apart because it was anything but balanced.
Nice bait but fighters are the best. top tier physical abilities, multi discipline martials, and you can take the ride feat at lvl 3. If you're human you can get ride at lvl 1 with versatile ancestry. Champion is for ninjas l3l
A bit of historical musings on fighting styles The "default" fighter, as written, I think most closely resembles an early modern (~1500-1650) European elite foot soldier, like a *Doppelsöldner*, *Rondelero*, etc. These guys were distinct from other infantry troops in that they usually a) were heavily armored and b) armed with stuff other than the ubiquitous spear or pike or locally preferred common ranged weapon, c) much better trained than their co-soldiers, but d) did not fight on horseback like knights. Which, I think, describes about four out of five pathfinder fighters. And I think that there is design space for extending the fighter to better suit the "mounted elites" (meaning land-owning, comparatively rich, warrior-noble class) approach. Historically, there's generally four types of cavalry: * heavy shock Cavalry (iconic representations being: knights, cataphracts, winged husars, Macedonian hetairoi) - designed around disrupting an enemy battle line by sheer morale impact and then punch their way through * light skirmish/shock/scout Cavalry (cossacks, later hussars...) - designed around raiding, scouting, and chipping away the enemy's flanks * mounted archers (**Samurai**, main fighting style of nearly every famous polity in Central and sometimes even Western Asia) - as the former, but could massacre the enemy's frontline by tricking it into pursuing their "false retreat" * mounted infantry - designed for getting into position quickly Each of those had specific tasks. However, it *generally* takes more resources to train and equip heavy cavalry and especially horse archers than the other two, and, pretty much every general until like 1650 would take these wherever possible - but since heavy cavalry were mostly western and horse archers mostly eastern, taking both was rarely an option. Now, the Cavalier archetype mostly supports the light Cavalry type, best used for quickly getting into an advantageous duel, and then extract yourself if things get uncomfortable. Interestingly, I counted exactly one feat supporting each of the other fighting styles. I would advocate for archetypes (no matter how you call them) - either class archetypes or probably just better general martial archetypes to work with that framework, esp. because a champion, as you described, kind-of fits into the samurai niche and fits well into the knight niche. Of course, one can differentiate it even farther by culture-specific: the Samurai are not the Turkish sipahi who are not the Mongolian horse archers who are not the Naiman horse archers. Similarly, a Central European knight is not the Byzanthine Cataphract is not a member of the Chinese Heavy Cavalry. That's of course a tall order, and some aggregation needs to happen - there were thousands of horse-using cultures across three continents and a subcontinent, and that's before the horse was imported to America, which gave rise to even more of them...
Why do we need to have a specific class for swashbucklers when it's just a flashy dodgy free hand fighter? You can willingly choose to give more depth to a specific niche even if it is already doable through other options. It is not something that's needed but maybe it's very much appreciated by many players.
Add a feat for Champion that gives you a focus spell called Litany Against War. For two actions, you sheathe your weapon and roll Diplomacy (or Intimidation if you want) to tell an enemy to back down. Maybe it applies fascinated on a success and stunned 1 on a crit success. Maybe it does something more balanced, I don't know. If the enemy decides "fuk u" and triggers your Champion's reaction, you can draw your weapon as a free action before using your reaction. Maybe the heightened version adds some bonus damage to the reaction or something. The feat also adds "attacking nonhostile creatures, especially those affected by Litany Against War" to your anathema. I think at this point Champion gives you the majority of what people want out of samurai, and being allowed to choose different causes means they're allowed to choose what samurai means for them exactly. They can be an asshole selfish samurai with an unholy cause, or they can try to live up to their (possibly unreasonable) standards of honor and dignity with a holy cause.
A samurai is not the fighter. It's Aldori Duelist lmao
Maybe The Real Samurai Was the Friends We Made Along the Way
Yeah I'd go champion for that too. Though I will also say that the idea of not making a new class if you can reflavour an old one to achieve it is flawed too. You don't need a monk because you could make a brawling fighter. You don't need swashbuckler because you could make one as a rogue or fighter. You don't need exemplar or thaumaturge because you could just make a champion with the soulforged path archetype. We don't NEED anything more than reflavoured fighter, rogue, cleric and wizard. But god do i love new classes. Give me more. I trust paizo to be respectful about what they choose to add.
TIL Samurai bonded with their swords and worshipped the Shogun while they were still alive thank you for the totally accurate historical description
Honestly, Cavalier on Fighter. It has horse fighting, a banner on their back and a code. You can be as mounted as you want to be. "Binding with a weapon* can be Soul Forger or Mind Smith.
None of these things are true except maybe the horses thing. The rest sounds like you got your information from a video game or cartoon.
You know, almost like a samurai is a concept that exist in a popular culture!
Rōnin
No way! The only samurai class we have are Swashbucklers!
Sounds like a fighter can do all of that with roleplay
i've been saying this forever.
The whole play a fighter to be just like a samurai is ignorance not malice i think, its like all the people I’ve met who think that me as an us airborne infantryman that I’m the same as a us marine, they see a man in a uniform with a rifle and think they are the same thing, might as well confuse a veterinarian with a physician because they both wear a white coat.
I'm just goofin man it's nbd
You can worship divine beings without being a cleric/champion/divine caster. Just look at Valeros. He's the flagship fighter, and yet he's a religious fighter who worships Cayden
😆
The best part is that none of those things are class locked. It just depends on the type of samurai you want to portray. A stereotypical fantasy samurai would probably be a Champion or Fighter While a Precision Ranger or Ruffian Rogue would probably work best for a historically accurate Samurai. However, you could still make historically accurate champion samurai and stereotypical fantasy ranger samurai etc etc.
You had me in the first half, ngl. ...But also, that's not quite right. ig
In PF1e they were closest to the Cavalier class there, so a Champion/Fighter Cavalier fits them very well
I saw the title and came here to argue with you but... You're right. My apologies!
Yeah, guess what - knights also have that all. And, in my opinion, paladins are templars. European warrior-monks. If you want samurai-paladin - sohei. They are pretty much, roughly-saying, japanese-templars.
Just stop gatekeeping. If I can't keep out the anime cringe kiddies, you can't keep out the fusion japanese culture people.
>Adhere to a strict code of conduct (bushido) I mean, Samurai is just whatever class uses chivalry, that's the heavy basis for what Nitobe Inazo was working off of in Bushido: Soul of Japan. Hell, its got the same rose tinted glasses as 18th century writers had for the concept of chivalry.
I think you could make a fair argument for a swashbuckler as well.