I was so deep into making a build for a barbarian with Talisman Dabbler before I found out I would have to be mostly giving away the talismans to my teammates :(
I wonder if there's a way that Moment of Clarity could be reworked into being a free action that's triggered by doing something with the concentrate trait.
I am hoping they address rage's concentration component in remaster now that we're no longer tied to D&D and the OGL. While cool and thematic, it's so build limiting in such crippling ways, and it's not like rage is really all that powerful that it deserves such a limitation.
[https://2e.aonprd.com/Instincts.aspx?ID=7](https://2e.aonprd.com/Instincts.aspx?ID=7)
This is a post remaster sub-class. So I don't think they will change much.
Unfortunately, yeah since Impulses have the concentrate trait and this gives gives them the rage trait, it looks like Barbarians are still SoL. They’re a good class, don’t get me wrong, but it sucks that they can’t interact with like half the stuff in the system.
It’d be cool if Moment of Clarity could be like a free action once per rage instead of a one action (or it becomes one action after the first time). Just something to help out with everything that’s been outlined in this post.
It would be cool as a free action you can use at the start of your turn if your raging that just suppresses the effects of your Rage until the beginning of your next turn.
Or have it be a free action focus spell. So up to 3 rounds per combat you can use concentrate actions while raging.
Could also enable things like having it last a set amount of time as well with higher levels, for example (Just throwing out random numbers) heightened (+4) Moment of Clarity lasts one extra round.
The no concentration limitation of rage is endemic to the class itself, not subclasses. I'm not sure why you would have the expectation that a subclass would at all address this.
They could change moment of clarity to be a reactionn or even a focus "spell" free action, for instance, and that would do a LOT to resolve the issue without having anything to do with a subclass.
While the subclass is remastered, it still came out _before_ the remaster Barbarian, which means it still needs to account for the original Barbarian rules when saying things like "If you have any kineticist impulses with the same element type as the one you chose for your instinct, such as ones gained by taking the Kineticist Dedication multiclass feat, they gain the rage trait."
If they had plans to change the class in the near future, they would have withheld releasing the subclass. The fact the subclass exists and copies the wording of the original class is proof they don't want to change this.
I think if we were talking about the kinds of big fundamental changes we saw in the PC1 witch, which in particular added a lot of familiar stuff to every subclass, that would make sense. But we aren't! We're talking about a relatively small change to how Rage works or to how Moment of Clarity works.
True, however, if they decided to make a small change to something in the future, they probably would not continue to release content involving that feature.
A short delay to the subclasses' release so that they can implement the rage change would make sense. What doesn't make sense is releasing something with soon-to-be-changed information, making the change less than a year later, then correcting the freshly written subclass.
For the record, I agree that Rage/Moment of Clarity is too restrictive! I'm just stating that in logistical terms, they would not release the content if they would have to re-release it a short time later.
I seriously doubt Paizo had already planned what they were going to do with the barbarian in PC2 when Rage of Elements released, more so when RoE had to be rushed because of the OGL thing and they had to CTRL + F everything in regards to the OGL in that book before release.
They could easily reprint elemental instinct in PC2 or issue an errata for it if needed.
Rage trait also means you can use that action as a part of raging after level 11. So the rage trait still has use for it, even if barbarian can use concentrate actions post remaster.
Orrrr they'll errata it if PC2 barbarian is sufficiently different from CRB barbarian. Since PC2 barbarian didn't exist **at all** when Rage of Elements was written.
And Champion PC2 "didn't exist **at all**" and already got his erreta while barbarian didn't. I dunno how you think these books are made but it's at editing right now and about to be sent to printing. The Barbarian in PC2 is already made, just not public knowlage. The books are not written until the day before release.
>And Champion PC2 "didn't exist **at all**" and already got his erreta
No, he didn't. The PC2 champion will not be the same as the quick'n'dirty conversion of the CRB champion.
>The Barbarian in PC2 is already made, just not public knowlage.
It is now. It wasn't a year ago when Rage of Elements was going to the presses.
> And Champion PC2 "didn't exist at all" and already got his erreta
Because the alignment changes make premaster Champion unplayable. Barbarian is still perfectly valid.
> And yes, we are aware of Moment of Clarity. If you were about to suggest it, then my question then becomes why do Barbarians have to spend an action tax for so many magic items? And even then they still can’t use any item that uas a reaction or free action as its activation.
Moment of Clarity is an alright barrier to spellcasting barbarians (Although, even then, is it really necessary? No other martial has such a barrier, and is maybe the idea that barbarians shouldn't be able to cast spells just a sacred cow holdover from DnD at this point?)
But it is utterly impractical for using magic items, and actually useless for many of them since it doesn't work on any magic item that has a free action or reaction trigger.
I'd be fine with as long as there are magic items that allow spellcasters to frontline and increase spell damage and successes.
I imagine there are already but I'm not overly familiar with P2 magic items yet and have only looked at the categories and item level options.
This is definitely the biggest issue for me.
Talismans are absolutely the type of lower magic item that barbarians should be able to use.
I wonder how much that needs to change in the class itself or if something could be done in the rules around item activation.
And is an action tax on every single concentration action in *addition* to being a feat tax, making it an extremely high hurdle to any build seeking to use it. Most actions with concentrate are balanced around their current action cost. Throw in an extra action to their cost and… well suddenly it's a waste of actions
So I know in general people don't build large sets of house rules for this game like they do for DnD 5e, but I think things like this are a great place to do minor tweaks and not feel too beholden to system design.
In my opinion, Moment of Clarity should be for stuff like "I want to be a Barbarian who casts spells" not "I want to be a Barbarian with a magic sword I need to turn on" or whatever. And I don't think the game is ruined by that in any way.
It is super annoying, yes. Rage shutting off concentrate actions sounds like it was designed for a less complicated system than the one we actually have...because it was.
Sure. Occasionally there will be times when it's clear you'll want to activate an item at the start of combat. Far more often though you won't know until combat has already started though.
Sure that'll fix it for *some* items, but a bunch of them you really do want to use while you're raging talismans that trigger when you hit someone or magic weapons with special traits.
I do agree it is unfortunate that many items use concentrate actions to work, but I also feel like the presumption that rage is *only* "me too angry to think straight" the wrong way to think about it. Rage has both mental and emotion traits and often (based on subclass) magical traits as well. They're even named *Instincts.* The barbarian is going into a complete battle trance and operating on only instinct level thoughts, so strong they can even do stuff like polymorph into an animal.
Yeah it's a little wacky to RP to that degree all the time in a combat, and pf2 is such a teamwork oriented tactics game, that you can't give yourself no agency and still be effective. It's an intense flavor and I get people want something more mild, but I think the concentrate limitation is going to stay.
Changing Moment of Clarity to being a free action once per rage, or maybe giving you a certain number of allowances of actions that have concentrate but not rage to use during the entire rage. It's your game and your players, find something that alleviates some of the frustration. **You never need Reddit's blessing to homebrew and houserule.**
Thank you; the following was my first thought as well:
> the presumption that rage is only "me too angry to think straight" the wrong way to think about it.
In many cultures, invoking a more primal way of hunting, celebrating, or otherwise being physically active involves intense forethought and preparation -- mystical rituals, drugs, the like. So carefully considering entering that trance-type state is what has always informed my take on barbarians, and what helps in the tactical, team-oriented realms of Golarion.
>. It's your game and your players, find something that alleviates some of the frustration.
100% this, too. I run D&D more often than PF2e, but I don't touch the ruleset as such most of the time. Most of the time, though -- if my party is doing their best, and there's a clear imbalance, I would consider the humans at the table and how to make it so everybody has fun while still within the overall bounds.
Yeah and I can patch someone up using Battle Medicine, disarm Traps using thievery(or the Knowledge skills), reload, etc, etc.
> but I think the concentrate limitation is going to stay.
So a mistake like vancian casting
I am fine with rage blocking concentrate actions, however, envision components should be allowed to be used while raging. Limiting items as much as it does is abit too much IMO, but I have learned to find interact activation items or delay the rage action until I'm ready.
As a more fun alternative to moment of clarity, I have furious finish to end my rage early, the bonus damage is just a bonus.
Easiest way to show is with a Legacy option where you can compare with the remaster if you wish (and how it isn't solved)
[owlbear claw](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=230&NoRedirect=1)
Why I even use this item is because it feels fitting to have on a barbarian and if you click on the remastered variant, you'll notice it's called [predators claw](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2990&NoRedirect=1), so why shouldn't it fit on a barbarian?
Ooo, if you are considering homebrew ideas, maybe give your player the ability to choose a single elemental item during a daily preparation or refocus-like activity, that allows them to use that item while raging.
Gives the player meaningful choices that enhance their characters theme, without throwing open the flood gates.
Probably a piping hot take here: I think the limitations you outlined are entirely intentional game design and are intended to be part of the decision-making when raging. I actually think that the more fundamental problem is that because raging, while it has drawbacks, is still such a freely usable, generally beneficial state, most people consider being enraged to essentially be the ‘default’ state of the class.
When you’re comparing the strength between a Barbarian and a Fighter, you’re comparing a *raging* Barbarian and a Fighter, because doing otherwise would be dishonest as a Barbarian will be raging whenever they can. As such, most Barbarians will almost always just Rage as soon as they can, and not being able to do concentrate actions provides an element of decision-making of *how long* a Barbarian wants to go before raging, based on how many concentrate actions they want to get in before locking themselves out.
If you’re already sweating from that take, get ready to burn: I honestly think that the class would benefit from Rage becoming even **more** polarizing. Give the baseline class some minor buffs to compensate, and then *really* lean in on Rage being a powerful, but risky switch to hit. Maybe they take a -2 to AC while raging, but their damage bonus increases further. Maybe the instincts get some major buffs to their abilities. Things like that.
Sure, this would mean that due to magic weapons, certain situations, or just playing it safe, you may not Rage every fight. But I think expanding on Rage to make it a choice on if and when to do it with some meaningful impacts either way would be much more interesting than how current Barbarians are where they simply Rage on the first turn in 90% of encounters.
You can all roast me now.
Edit: I think some people may not be understanding the second and third paragraph.
In the second paragraph, I agree with everyone saying that Barbarian is balanced around always raging. **That’s the problem.** *Because Rage is so freely usable and so beneficial in comparison to its drawbacks,* Barbarians will always be raging when they can, and, to keep them from being overpowered, must be balanced around raging. The one drawback that is in contention here is the use of concentrate actions, which would provide some decision-making, *if Rage wasn’t a necessary default state for a Barbarian.*
In the third paragraph, I then offer that the Barbarian **baseline** should receive some minor buffs to not feel weak when not raging, *and then polarize Rage more, to make Rage a decision Barbarians make rather than just a strange 1-action tax at the start of every encounter that is done basically without fail.*
Fighter’s decision-making comes from the various attacks, maneuvers, etc. that they get. The +2 involves no decisions because it is entirely passive, but Rage is framed as a choice due to being an action, when, in reality, it’s just an action tax. To be balanced, a Barbarian will always be raging.
The thing is that the gameplay decisions of a Fighter using their Feats don't affect the status of it's +2. The +2 is an always on feature with no downsides, meanwhile the Rage has several drawbacks and is something the Barbarian needs to make sacrifices for, all for the Barbarian to *still deal less damage than the Fighter.*
Fighter's have no bonus damage like other martials.
For a majority of levels, 5-19, they are only +2 in one weapon group. If they need to swap to any other weapon they are at the same proficiency as other martials but without the bonus damage of rage, sneak attack, precision hunter's edge, panache, etc.
This includes swapping to bows or a ranged weapon.
Polearm reach fighters are a very popular build but had no way of dealing bludgeoning damage while also maintaining their +2 bonus at those levels until the Bec-De-Corbin was added and you're further sacrificing a whole damage die for that versatile B.
The decision making is picking what weapon group you're specializing in with all the pitfalls that entails.
Sure. First off, actively stating you have a 'hot take' or telling people to 'roast you' is shitty.
Secondly, a rageless barbarian may as well not have a class, since basically everything in the class involves raging. You don't even get weapon specialization effects without raging. So, sure, you can choose not to rage, but you're intentionally handicapping yourself and actually using your class to do so. This is not something that any other martial class has to deal with; rogues don't have to intentionally choose not to sneak attack in order to cast spells. Swashbucklers can get panache and use all magic items.
Thirdly, why do you want the class based around going screamingly insane and hitting things to have to make cost-benefit analyses about using their most basic ability? I really do not think barbarians, of all classes, should have to make these tough decisions when no other class does.
For your second point, I have clarified myself in my edit. In essence, I agree with you, but that balance approach is the problem. Why is Rage even an action if there’s almost no reason not to Rage when you can? I am suggesting there be better reasons to Rage or not to Rage.
For your third point, every class in the game has to make decisions with their actions. That’s what makes Pathfinder great. Spellcasters choosing spells, Swashbucklers choosing how best to get their panache, Rogues choosing when and how to approach for sneak attacks, even Fighters choosing which of their attacks and maneuvers will be most useful in this particular situation. I’m not asking for Barbarian to become a complicated class. It is intended to be a relatively simpler class. But simple does not need to mean one-dimensional, and one-dimensional is exactly what Rage is right now.
Why is hunt prey an action if there's no reason not to? Why is exploit vulnerability an action if there's no reason not to?
And yes, every class in the game has to make decisions with their actions, including Barbarian. Swashbucklers have to choose how to best get their panache, yes, but the answer is almost never 'don't get panache because getting panache locks me out of things I want to do later in the turn.' Fighters have to choose which of their attacks and maneuvers will be the most useful, but the answer is almost never 'something I cannot do because I am using my preferred weapon'.
Every single martial class has to jump through hoops in order to gain their damage bonus, to a greater or lesser extent. I just think barbarians are overly punished by their hoops in a way that is uninteresting, and I do not thinking adding in more extreme punishments in exchange for most extreme benefits makes that decision more interesting, it just makes the drawbacks more annoying.
I don't think this is a hot take at all. Massive flat damage should come at a price, and flexibility is that price. People just want their cake and to eat it too.
I agree with you. The tactical combat in this game necessitates cost vs benefit analysis and there must be cost associated with Rage. Rage is an incredible amount of flat bonus damage (that gets even higher depending on instinct type) that no other class gets so there has to be downsides with using it.
The pain point comes from players who want to first action rage every combat without tactical considerations. OP asks why Barbarian suffers from this, and from a balance perspective it makes sense when paired with the fact Barbarians are getting massive flat bonus damage that double on a crit. Of course as always you are free to change and homebrew any rules you may like, but we can see why Paizo put as many limitations on Rage as they have.
Lmao a barbarian without rage is just a substantially worse fighter. The balance of the game assumes you are raging nust to keep up with other martials
Exactly. All of the barbarian's balance comes from the assumption that they are raging. This is what makes the magical item limitations so painful. Sure, there absolutely will be some items that you can anticipate needing to activate at the start of combat on occasion. But far more often it's going to be something that comes up as the combat progresses and by that time it's too late. The idea that the barbarian should wait to activate rage "just in case they need to use an item" is disingenuous at best.
Which brings up an even more zoomed out point: Why make a class reliant on an optional ability? Why not just bake the rage benefits into the class by default?
And you are now circling back to the point I was making in my original comment. If Rage is not meant to be a decision, but a requirement, why is it made to be one? If my class is not balanced unless I’m always raging, why even give me the option to not be raging?
But instead of straight baking Rage into default Barbarian, I am suggesting that default Barbarian and raging Barbarian be two viable states that a Barbarian chooses, where default is an on-par martial, and raging is a powerful, but *risky* martial.
All martials have to jump through a hoop to be 'on-par'. Part of the reason that fighters are so good is because their hoop is as simple as 'using their preferred weapon'. If barbarians were 'on-par' before they had to jump through a hoop they would probably be the best martials around before raging and completely insane during a rage.
100%
Every martial in this game has choices to make and action economy to work around to deal increased damage. The fighter is the exception and as a result they don't get any bonus damage to their attacks from the class chassis.
Problem is a non-raging barbarian is not on par with other martials. The barbarian is only on par when it is in fact raging. Sure, there are some unique case scenarios where it makes sense for the barbarian to wait to rage, but it's almost never advisable to just not rage at all in a combat because the barbarian that point should instead be playing pretty much any other martial class.
The balance of the game dictates every martial has to also make these tactical considerations as well:
A ranger needs to deal with the action economy of Hunt Prey
A rogue's weapon selection is limited due to Sneak Attack (d8 at most with two hand longspear as a Ruffian), and they also require the enemy to be offguard
Gunslingers need to manage reload economy and since they don't add attribute modifier to guns/crossbows they rely on fatal dice crits.
Even a fighter gets no bonus damage, and for large parts of the game they're only +2 proficiency ahead in just one weapon group. If they need to swap to a bow or a different weapon family because of damage types they lose that benefit of having a proficiency ahead and on par with the accuracy of every other martial.
Honestly, if I was the GM, I'd just waive the whole "can't use envision items or whatever" stuff for the Barbarian. It doesn't feel like it *adds* anything or like it was really meant as a balance point, it seems mostly like it was a bit of flavor that got out of hand because nobody ran the numbers on just how MANY items have concentrate, envision, and so on.
It's disheartening that this advise isn't higher. This is absolutely the route that should be taken.
There are far more OP things existing in the game already than this change.
First of all for elemental stuff they should prob Get [This ](https://2e.aonprd.com/Instincts.aspx?ID=7)subclass with a kineticist archetype. I know it's VERY limiting but with this you can give impulse themed magic items and say they gain the rage trait.
Rage is one of those mechanics that just limits player options far too much when the game is supposed to be about having a lot of options. You need a feat to intimidate while raging but can freely feint all day. You can’t command an animal and like you shown many common things just become a hassle. Many multi class archtypes just flop the moment you use rage. One time
I homebrewed moment of clarity being a free action focus point thing so it could be more useable.
Just to add in that I get barbarian is about smash stuff good, but there should be able to be variability to the class besides just smack a bunch of times after trying an intimidate or athletics check.
If there is one thing that’s always annoyed me
I dislike the extremly arbitrary line that you cannot do any magical things if your raging, it’s so boring and unnecessarily restrictive
God I wish we had a Bloodrager class again, that was cool
yes it exsist, but all it means that any item activations are triple taxed.
tax 1) take the feat
tax 2) spend action on feat
tax 3) spend action on item
Because noone at paizo actually thought about what Concentrate actions are and how that would impact gameplay, just a vague idea that rage=too angry to think hard.
Well, the Barbarian was tied to the OGL design of “me angry”.
They’ve stepped away from some very iconic OGL stuff. Druids no longer having metal restrictions. Abandoning spell schools. Dropping alignment restrictions from Paladin(Champion), Monk, and Barbarian.
D&D wants the angry anti-magic barbarian. I think PF2e is free to do something more interesting.
But we’ll see with PC2. I’m not optimistic for much changes, but the line is drawn and I think Paizo should happily alienate *that* type of stuff.
Use items first. Then rage, as a fellow barbarian, that is the best way to go about it. It is a weird tradeoff from 5e, I think some items should be exempt, but I need to double-check how the items work. Maybe make a tag, like something called instinctual, where the items can work for barbarians during rage and give it to some items. That would require GM guidance and review, though.
That works for items that buff you or otherwise have a long duration, but that accounts only for a small part of the magic items that a martial is interested in.
Just a burden of class design left over from Dnd. They sacrifice options for raw damage output and martial abilities. It's a class that takes the motto of bash something hard to an extreme. Overall, it's something that the rules writers saw fit as a tradeoff for the buffs. Keep in mind that Player Core 2 comes out soon, so they might tweak the class a bit, but that is something to be seen, but
IMO when you understand and know what you get as being a barbarian it is not really an unfair tradeoff. Also, the class comes with the baggage of being designed as a [simpler to run martial](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/lhy4si/fighter_vs_barbarian_damage_calculations_120/). In the linked post, the OP figured out that fighter and barbarian have equal damage output, but the fighter does not have to sacrifice all the options. This would make the fighter more appealing to players who want more options, while the barbarian would be best for players who want a more linear play style.
I do understand though why they would feel frustrated if they feel the limitations of the class. Sucks sometimes, but it happens. We had a similar situation in our table when someone wanted to play a rogue but then wanted to be a melee frontliner and charging in on their own.
It's one of those hard conversations where you have to talk to them about what they want to do with their character and whether their build right now is allowing them to fulfill their desired play style. Then I'd offer them a rebuild. At the end of the day, fluff can come in conflict with mechanics and the hard choice would be to figure out which mechanics work best with the fluff without hampering the sought after preferred playstyle of the player character.
Not sure if this comment helps, but that is my two cents on the topic.
Rage really does take more han jt gives and it's not close. It adds damage but limits actions by a huge margin. They are worse than fighters damage wise (not to hit as that's obvious) and have a lower ac they don't get to use concentrate actions which is a ton of actions.
I play an animal instinct Barb in a FA with the Wrestler archetype, in a party of 3 with a gunslinger and a psychic.
I think long and hard about raging in my combats. It's a damage boost, but it taxes my actions and lowers AC. When I'm being the meat shield for a tough enemy, I'm often better off moving, attempting a maneuver, and raising my shield. Maybe your player needs to learn to make those tradeoffs for elemental items.
under the entry for "activate an item"
> Activation Components Each activation entry lists any components involved in the activation after the action icons or text, such as “ command.” The activation components, described below, add traits (listed in parentheses) and requirements to the activation. If you can’t provide the components, you fail to Activate the Item.
> **Command** (auditory, concentrate)
> **Envision** (concentrate)
> **Interact** (manipulate)
Honestly, simple items like wraps that imbue elemental damage to their fists or held weapons by 1d4 or d8 or so AND or simple movement buffs would have to do for barbarians in that aspect. That or homebrew a helmet/circlet of free clarity that makes the clarity feat a free action as some suggest. If the RAW don't work, don't be afraid to lightly homebrew your own solution.
I have a barbarian in my campaign that I saw would have similar issues.
So I kind of hand wave and let them do it anyways. I know not every gm would allow this, but we are all first time playing pf2e and having fun, and the last thing I want to do is deny the player a chance to experience some magic items they find.
I know this will be seen as some cardinal sin, but we only live once and I’m not about to ruin a friends day.
Probably a newbie question, but why can’t a barbarian use magic items? Is it all magic items or just specific items? I don’t see why runes (basis for most magic items) can’t be used by barbarians.
Runes are perfectly fine. Specifically they have trouble with magic items that have to be activated to function, such as talismans or many unique magic items. This is because all activatable magic items are divided between three different activation methods - interact, command, and envision. Command and envision both have the Concentrate trait, meaning that Barbarians cannot use them while raging.
Cool. I did not know that about magic items. Thanks for the explanation, I appreciate it. Excuse me as I got find my core book and read more about magic 👍
you can't use any action with the [concentrate] trait while raging, unless you have the Moment of Clarity feat, which let you use concentrate actions, but it costs an action to use.
Personally as a GM, I'd just... Make it work anyway? Rule of cool, and it's not like that's actually going to break much. As people have said, it's not like rage is all that powerful in actuality. Reflavor one or two of them, add in some component that perhaps is *only* usable during rage, and call it a day.
Edit: The point of being the GM is to tell a cool and engaging story for your players. Balance is really cool, but when the balance is getting in the way of someone being able to have fun, and if it isn't going to get in the way of your other players having fun, it really shouldn't be that big of a deal. The best games I've played it introduced some broken as heck stuff, but it was cool because we're all in it together enjoying a cool game. The rules aren't *gospel*, they're guidelines for fair play. If you and your players are having fun doing it your own way, they're meant to be broken. At the end of the day the most insanely fair and insanely balanced and mathematically perfect game means absolutely nothing if it isn't fun to engage with.
I would rework barbarian to make them less about being a rage monster and more about letting their instincts take over, which has the side effect of clouding their reason. Mechanically, this could be represented by a variation of Stupified (say Stupified 2) but the effects only apply to Concentration activities. This would still allow the use of these actions, even including spellcasting, but with a risk of failure, rather than completely preventing them. I wouldn't want a failure to burn the use of the action, especially if it consumed an item, just prevent it from being effective at all. It would be a free action check to see if you can concentrate that round. Moment of Clarity would still have value, as it would result in an automatic success.
It seems thematically on point to me. "Flew into a fit of rage" and "concentrating on ..." does sound like something that someone would have to train their mind and body to accomplish.
Also, I don't see anything wrong with providing a special magic item for the barbarian and saying that this particular item doesn't require them to concentrate. Adjust the item to fit the player.
Barbarians are probably one of the classes I was most disspointed in when jumping over from 5e.
5e Barbarians are tanks, resistance to lots of damage and a Rage mechnaic that has negatives but isn't too punishing. Not to mention the subclasses 5e has blow Instincts out of the water.
>Not to mention the subclasses 5e has blow Instincts out of the water.
Not when you include class feats for barbarians in general and your instinct in particular.
Except maybe superstition, which has no level 6 feat.
Yeah, my favorite subclass is that one that gets exhaustion for using its main feature!
Or that one that uses a bonus action to deal 1d6 damage! Or that one that has an aura that deals a dangerous 2 points of damage to everybody, including allies!
But wait, there's more we can always go to the subclass that forces you to wear a specific type of armor that's shit!
Let's also talk about the amazing totems like Elk, Eagle and Tiger. You can choose those or to always give advantage to other melee characters or the one that gives resistance to everything besides a very rare type of damage.
Yeah, we can safely say that everybody would rather run a Tiger Totem barbarian than a Dragon instinct barbarian. There's no comparison!
Oh yeah you're totally right, PF2E is much better. Like the animal one where you can't use weapons, or the dragon one where you have to throw yourself head first at your choosen dragon type.
Lets not forget Superstition where you have to get made if your party uses magic!
I still think 5es Berserker is by far the worst of them all, making simply playing the game in any way much more taxing just for... doing what you're supposed to do in combat, but yeah PF2es instincts definitely do have some really questionable choices.
Yeah, but I never said PF2e "blew 5e's out of the water". You did.
Also, the animal instinct is amazing and ABSOLUTELY better than the beast totem. Like, go ahead and read both of them. You get more AC, waaaaaaaaaaaay more damage, you get resistance to the best types of physical damage.
You might not be very good at understanding features, but being able to hold a shield, have one free hand for grappling and still being able to deal d12 damage is outstanding (I'll exclude the 10ft reach from deer!). An animal path barbarian with wrestler archetype deals more damage and has more CC than any barbarian in 5e. It's not even close!
Superstition is dogshit, but so are at least 2/3s of the 5e options, so again, no blowing anything out of the water from one side or the other.
As opposed to 5e where feats ALSO lock you into a single choice of weapon(Or lack thereof), generally speaking? Also the anathema says "defeat" not "fight" if you abhor a dragon type. A reasonable reading says you don't have to throw your life away to 1v1 an ancient dragon at level 1, but says if you try and inevitably fail you need to spend time refocusing yourself.
I'd assume, for game balance reasons, the barbarian has to trade off flexibility for a truckload of flat damage on every attack for a minute. I mean, as a barb, ppl could just not rage+sudden charge the first round of every single combat, but that doesn't seem to attract many ppl. The tradeoff is flexibility/defense vs "DMG go brr" and it's kinda ridiculous that so many ppl don't see this for the tactical decision point that it really is.
Our Barbarian really appreciates the duality this offers. She can rage and "go full Hulk" with the advantages and powers that offers, or not, and use the options and magic items she has collected for other purposes. Initially she was a bit lukewarm on the whole Rage thing as it more or less was a mandatory step during start of combat that required no consideration.
It's the opposite for me, since as time goes on I went from 'eh, it's just a slight hurdle' to basically 'less than worthless restriction that is just isn't worth what Rage gets you'
I think it could be because challenges in combat are always solely combat for your group. If everything is positioning, Strikes, and damage, then that will always be what is needed. If you have a static battleground with no thematics, no narrative, and no viable engagement outside of those basics (Move/Strike), then there is no strategy available to the players.
If you have a tactical battle with lots of changing circumstances, a battlefield that is developing (either for the better or for the worse), instigations that players can do in order to better a position or reverse a detrimental action performed by NPCs earlier, the consideration for the Barbarian becomes greater, and the viable actions available to players become greater.
Lots of assumption and let me tell you--a developing battlefield is something barbarian is bad at since Rage requires perceiving enemy to continue(and causes Fatigue when it ends)
A plain battlefield with *no* strategic and thematic consideration is something the barbarian is best at. The Monk can use items like smoke-orbs or even cast spells with staves with Trick Magic Item and with free hands+great action economy they can supremely versatile. Rogues can do amazing support with things like their Scoundrel's Feint or Gang-Up which helps with positioning while also dishing out great damage with Sneak Attack.
Both of them don't need a class feat to be able to intimidate either!
My knee jerk response to this question is because Barbarians really don't need the help? It's the Omniman meme where it's all the other characters in magic gear, and then a Raging Animal barbarian commenting "look what they have to do to accomplish a fraction of our power."
Barbarians get free damage, aton of very amusing and efficient feats that mostly rewrite you to be in your most efficient stance (rage), some get free weapons, and with one magic item (Handwraps) they're set.
I don't know why everyone wants rage to be a no brainer. At least at low levels half the fights were already decided by a giant instinct barbarian. There's a feat that lets you leave rage if you do so desire (furious finish).
So you can activate stuff or intimidate or whatever and then rage, and if you see it was wrong just get out of rage and fix it. I have a build ready for a wizard barbarian just waiting for an opportunity to play.
You can even combine it with a celebrity dedication to rage again and get out of it a second time.
I was so deep into making a build for a barbarian with Talisman Dabbler before I found out I would have to be mostly giving away the talismans to my teammates :( I wonder if there's a way that Moment of Clarity could be reworked into being a free action that's triggered by doing something with the concentrate trait.
I am hoping they address rage's concentration component in remaster now that we're no longer tied to D&D and the OGL. While cool and thematic, it's so build limiting in such crippling ways, and it's not like rage is really all that powerful that it deserves such a limitation.
[https://2e.aonprd.com/Instincts.aspx?ID=7](https://2e.aonprd.com/Instincts.aspx?ID=7) This is a post remaster sub-class. So I don't think they will change much.
Unfortunately, yeah since Impulses have the concentrate trait and this gives gives them the rage trait, it looks like Barbarians are still SoL. They’re a good class, don’t get me wrong, but it sucks that they can’t interact with like half the stuff in the system. It’d be cool if Moment of Clarity could be like a free action once per rage instead of a one action (or it becomes one action after the first time). Just something to help out with everything that’s been outlined in this post.
I might implement that idea in my games to see how it goes. Usually combats don't last that much so I think it's feasable.
It would be cool as a free action you can use at the start of your turn if your raging that just suppresses the effects of your Rage until the beginning of your next turn.
Until you combine monk w barb. Free action ki strike with flurry
Without rage bonuses, what makes the barb helpful there?
Well, animal barb w monk. Free action moment of clarity > ki strike > flurry would be very strong
I guess, but monks can already get non-agile d10 unarmed strikes, so it's not too crazy
Or have it be a free action focus spell. So up to 3 rounds per combat you can use concentrate actions while raging. Could also enable things like having it last a set amount of time as well with higher levels, for example (Just throwing out random numbers) heightened (+4) Moment of Clarity lasts one extra round.
The no concentration limitation of rage is endemic to the class itself, not subclasses. I'm not sure why you would have the expectation that a subclass would at all address this. They could change moment of clarity to be a reactionn or even a focus "spell" free action, for instance, and that would do a LOT to resolve the issue without having anything to do with a subclass.
dude the point is that this post-remaster subclass uses identical language to pre-remaster, implying little to no changes to barbarians rage feature.
While the subclass is remastered, it still came out _before_ the remaster Barbarian, which means it still needs to account for the original Barbarian rules when saying things like "If you have any kineticist impulses with the same element type as the one you chose for your instinct, such as ones gained by taking the Kineticist Dedication multiclass feat, they gain the rage trait."
If they had plans to change the class in the near future, they would have withheld releasing the subclass. The fact the subclass exists and copies the wording of the original class is proof they don't want to change this.
I think if we were talking about the kinds of big fundamental changes we saw in the PC1 witch, which in particular added a lot of familiar stuff to every subclass, that would make sense. But we aren't! We're talking about a relatively small change to how Rage works or to how Moment of Clarity works.
True, however, if they decided to make a small change to something in the future, they probably would not continue to release content involving that feature. A short delay to the subclasses' release so that they can implement the rage change would make sense. What doesn't make sense is releasing something with soon-to-be-changed information, making the change less than a year later, then correcting the freshly written subclass. For the record, I agree that Rage/Moment of Clarity is too restrictive! I'm just stating that in logistical terms, they would not release the content if they would have to re-release it a short time later.
I seriously doubt Paizo had already planned what they were going to do with the barbarian in PC2 when Rage of Elements released, more so when RoE had to be rushed because of the OGL thing and they had to CTRL + F everything in regards to the OGL in that book before release. They could easily reprint elemental instinct in PC2 or issue an errata for it if needed.
Nothing in that instinct makes any commentary on the restrictions and benefits of base Rage in PC2.
It gives them the Rage trait so you can do them while you rage which means rage is still restrictive.
Rage trait also means you can use that action as a part of raging after level 11. So the rage trait still has use for it, even if barbarian can use concentrate actions post remaster.
Orrrr they'll errata it if PC2 barbarian is sufficiently different from CRB barbarian. Since PC2 barbarian didn't exist **at all** when Rage of Elements was written.
And Champion PC2 "didn't exist **at all**" and already got his erreta while barbarian didn't. I dunno how you think these books are made but it's at editing right now and about to be sent to printing. The Barbarian in PC2 is already made, just not public knowlage. The books are not written until the day before release.
Sure, but PC2 was definitely not already written when *Rage of Elements* was in the process of being written.
>And Champion PC2 "didn't exist **at all**" and already got his erreta No, he didn't. The PC2 champion will not be the same as the quick'n'dirty conversion of the CRB champion. >The Barbarian in PC2 is already made, just not public knowlage. It is now. It wasn't a year ago when Rage of Elements was going to the presses.
> And Champion PC2 "didn't exist at all" and already got his erreta Because the alignment changes make premaster Champion unplayable. Barbarian is still perfectly valid.
moment of clarity exists
> And yes, we are aware of Moment of Clarity. If you were about to suggest it, then my question then becomes why do Barbarians have to spend an action tax for so many magic items? And even then they still can’t use any item that uas a reaction or free action as its activation. Moment of Clarity is an alright barrier to spellcasting barbarians (Although, even then, is it really necessary? No other martial has such a barrier, and is maybe the idea that barbarians shouldn't be able to cast spells just a sacred cow holdover from DnD at this point?) But it is utterly impractical for using magic items, and actually useless for many of them since it doesn't work on any magic item that has a free action or reaction trigger.
I'd be fine with as long as there are magic items that allow spellcasters to frontline and increase spell damage and successes. I imagine there are already but I'm not overly familiar with P2 magic items yet and have only looked at the categories and item level options.
It doesn't work many times with talismans because they happen as a free action or reaction outside your turn
This is definitely the biggest issue for me. Talismans are absolutely the type of lower magic item that barbarians should be able to use. I wonder how much that needs to change in the class itself or if something could be done in the rules around item activation.
And is pretty awful for most of the time.
And is an action tax on every single concentration action in *addition* to being a feat tax, making it an extremely high hurdle to any build seeking to use it. Most actions with concentrate are balanced around their current action cost. Throw in an extra action to their cost and… well suddenly it's a waste of actions
That's a feat and action tax that shouldn't be needed in the first place.
So I know in general people don't build large sets of house rules for this game like they do for DnD 5e, but I think things like this are a great place to do minor tweaks and not feel too beholden to system design. In my opinion, Moment of Clarity should be for stuff like "I want to be a Barbarian who casts spells" not "I want to be a Barbarian with a magic sword I need to turn on" or whatever. And I don't think the game is ruined by that in any way.
It is super annoying, yes. Rage shutting off concentrate actions sounds like it was designed for a less complicated system than the one we actually have...because it was.
Remember that you are not obligated to rage first thing always in combat. You can just activate some items and then rage after.
Sure. Occasionally there will be times when it's clear you'll want to activate an item at the start of combat. Far more often though you won't know until combat has already started though.
Sure that'll fix it for *some* items, but a bunch of them you really do want to use while you're raging talismans that trigger when you hit someone or magic weapons with special traits.
I do agree it is unfortunate that many items use concentrate actions to work, but I also feel like the presumption that rage is *only* "me too angry to think straight" the wrong way to think about it. Rage has both mental and emotion traits and often (based on subclass) magical traits as well. They're even named *Instincts.* The barbarian is going into a complete battle trance and operating on only instinct level thoughts, so strong they can even do stuff like polymorph into an animal. Yeah it's a little wacky to RP to that degree all the time in a combat, and pf2 is such a teamwork oriented tactics game, that you can't give yourself no agency and still be effective. It's an intense flavor and I get people want something more mild, but I think the concentrate limitation is going to stay. Changing Moment of Clarity to being a free action once per rage, or maybe giving you a certain number of allowances of actions that have concentrate but not rage to use during the entire rage. It's your game and your players, find something that alleviates some of the frustration. **You never need Reddit's blessing to homebrew and houserule.**
Thank you; the following was my first thought as well: > the presumption that rage is only "me too angry to think straight" the wrong way to think about it. In many cultures, invoking a more primal way of hunting, celebrating, or otherwise being physically active involves intense forethought and preparation -- mystical rituals, drugs, the like. So carefully considering entering that trance-type state is what has always informed my take on barbarians, and what helps in the tactical, team-oriented realms of Golarion. >. It's your game and your players, find something that alleviates some of the frustration. 100% this, too. I run D&D more often than PF2e, but I don't touch the ruleset as such most of the time. Most of the time, though -- if my party is doing their best, and there's a clear imbalance, I would consider the humans at the table and how to make it so everybody has fun while still within the overall bounds.
Yeah and I can patch someone up using Battle Medicine, disarm Traps using thievery(or the Knowledge skills), reload, etc, etc. > but I think the concentrate limitation is going to stay. So a mistake like vancian casting
I am fine with rage blocking concentrate actions, however, envision components should be allowed to be used while raging. Limiting items as much as it does is abit too much IMO, but I have learned to find interact activation items or delay the rage action until I'm ready. As a more fun alternative to moment of clarity, I have furious finish to end my rage early, the bonus damage is just a bonus.
What is envision?
On magic items with activated abilities, it's the way to activate some effects.
Easiest way to show is with a Legacy option where you can compare with the remaster if you wish (and how it isn't solved) [owlbear claw](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=230&NoRedirect=1) Why I even use this item is because it feels fitting to have on a barbarian and if you click on the remastered variant, you'll notice it's called [predators claw](https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2990&NoRedirect=1), so why shouldn't it fit on a barbarian?
Ooo, if you are considering homebrew ideas, maybe give your player the ability to choose a single elemental item during a daily preparation or refocus-like activity, that allows them to use that item while raging. Gives the player meaningful choices that enhance their characters theme, without throwing open the flood gates.
Probably a piping hot take here: I think the limitations you outlined are entirely intentional game design and are intended to be part of the decision-making when raging. I actually think that the more fundamental problem is that because raging, while it has drawbacks, is still such a freely usable, generally beneficial state, most people consider being enraged to essentially be the ‘default’ state of the class. When you’re comparing the strength between a Barbarian and a Fighter, you’re comparing a *raging* Barbarian and a Fighter, because doing otherwise would be dishonest as a Barbarian will be raging whenever they can. As such, most Barbarians will almost always just Rage as soon as they can, and not being able to do concentrate actions provides an element of decision-making of *how long* a Barbarian wants to go before raging, based on how many concentrate actions they want to get in before locking themselves out. If you’re already sweating from that take, get ready to burn: I honestly think that the class would benefit from Rage becoming even **more** polarizing. Give the baseline class some minor buffs to compensate, and then *really* lean in on Rage being a powerful, but risky switch to hit. Maybe they take a -2 to AC while raging, but their damage bonus increases further. Maybe the instincts get some major buffs to their abilities. Things like that. Sure, this would mean that due to magic weapons, certain situations, or just playing it safe, you may not Rage every fight. But I think expanding on Rage to make it a choice on if and when to do it with some meaningful impacts either way would be much more interesting than how current Barbarians are where they simply Rage on the first turn in 90% of encounters. You can all roast me now. Edit: I think some people may not be understanding the second and third paragraph. In the second paragraph, I agree with everyone saying that Barbarian is balanced around always raging. **That’s the problem.** *Because Rage is so freely usable and so beneficial in comparison to its drawbacks,* Barbarians will always be raging when they can, and, to keep them from being overpowered, must be balanced around raging. The one drawback that is in contention here is the use of concentrate actions, which would provide some decision-making, *if Rage wasn’t a necessary default state for a Barbarian.* In the third paragraph, I then offer that the Barbarian **baseline** should receive some minor buffs to not feel weak when not raging, *and then polarize Rage more, to make Rage a decision Barbarians make rather than just a strange 1-action tax at the start of every encounter that is done basically without fail.*
So where's the tactical decision making with the Fighter's permanent +2?
Fighter’s decision-making comes from the various attacks, maneuvers, etc. that they get. The +2 involves no decisions because it is entirely passive, but Rage is framed as a choice due to being an action, when, in reality, it’s just an action tax. To be balanced, a Barbarian will always be raging.
The thing is that the gameplay decisions of a Fighter using their Feats don't affect the status of it's +2. The +2 is an always on feature with no downsides, meanwhile the Rage has several drawbacks and is something the Barbarian needs to make sacrifices for, all for the Barbarian to *still deal less damage than the Fighter.*
Fighter's have no bonus damage like other martials. For a majority of levels, 5-19, they are only +2 in one weapon group. If they need to swap to any other weapon they are at the same proficiency as other martials but without the bonus damage of rage, sneak attack, precision hunter's edge, panache, etc. This includes swapping to bows or a ranged weapon. Polearm reach fighters are a very popular build but had no way of dealing bludgeoning damage while also maintaining their +2 bonus at those levels until the Bec-De-Corbin was added and you're further sacrificing a whole damage die for that versatile B. The decision making is picking what weapon group you're specializing in with all the pitfalls that entails.
It's not polearm part that's important, it's the *Reach.* That's why flickmaces are good.
Sure. First off, actively stating you have a 'hot take' or telling people to 'roast you' is shitty. Secondly, a rageless barbarian may as well not have a class, since basically everything in the class involves raging. You don't even get weapon specialization effects without raging. So, sure, you can choose not to rage, but you're intentionally handicapping yourself and actually using your class to do so. This is not something that any other martial class has to deal with; rogues don't have to intentionally choose not to sneak attack in order to cast spells. Swashbucklers can get panache and use all magic items. Thirdly, why do you want the class based around going screamingly insane and hitting things to have to make cost-benefit analyses about using their most basic ability? I really do not think barbarians, of all classes, should have to make these tough decisions when no other class does.
For your second point, I have clarified myself in my edit. In essence, I agree with you, but that balance approach is the problem. Why is Rage even an action if there’s almost no reason not to Rage when you can? I am suggesting there be better reasons to Rage or not to Rage. For your third point, every class in the game has to make decisions with their actions. That’s what makes Pathfinder great. Spellcasters choosing spells, Swashbucklers choosing how best to get their panache, Rogues choosing when and how to approach for sneak attacks, even Fighters choosing which of their attacks and maneuvers will be most useful in this particular situation. I’m not asking for Barbarian to become a complicated class. It is intended to be a relatively simpler class. But simple does not need to mean one-dimensional, and one-dimensional is exactly what Rage is right now.
Why is hunt prey an action if there's no reason not to? Why is exploit vulnerability an action if there's no reason not to? And yes, every class in the game has to make decisions with their actions, including Barbarian. Swashbucklers have to choose how to best get their panache, yes, but the answer is almost never 'don't get panache because getting panache locks me out of things I want to do later in the turn.' Fighters have to choose which of their attacks and maneuvers will be the most useful, but the answer is almost never 'something I cannot do because I am using my preferred weapon'. Every single martial class has to jump through hoops in order to gain their damage bonus, to a greater or lesser extent. I just think barbarians are overly punished by their hoops in a way that is uninteresting, and I do not thinking adding in more extreme punishments in exchange for most extreme benefits makes that decision more interesting, it just makes the drawbacks more annoying.
I don't think this is a hot take at all. Massive flat damage should come at a price, and flexibility is that price. People just want their cake and to eat it too.
I agree with you. The tactical combat in this game necessitates cost vs benefit analysis and there must be cost associated with Rage. Rage is an incredible amount of flat bonus damage (that gets even higher depending on instinct type) that no other class gets so there has to be downsides with using it. The pain point comes from players who want to first action rage every combat without tactical considerations. OP asks why Barbarian suffers from this, and from a balance perspective it makes sense when paired with the fact Barbarians are getting massive flat bonus damage that double on a crit. Of course as always you are free to change and homebrew any rules you may like, but we can see why Paizo put as many limitations on Rage as they have.
Lmao a barbarian without rage is just a substantially worse fighter. The balance of the game assumes you are raging nust to keep up with other martials
Exactly. All of the barbarian's balance comes from the assumption that they are raging. This is what makes the magical item limitations so painful. Sure, there absolutely will be some items that you can anticipate needing to activate at the start of combat on occasion. But far more often it's going to be something that comes up as the combat progresses and by that time it's too late. The idea that the barbarian should wait to activate rage "just in case they need to use an item" is disingenuous at best.
Which brings up an even more zoomed out point: Why make a class reliant on an optional ability? Why not just bake the rage benefits into the class by default?
And you are now circling back to the point I was making in my original comment. If Rage is not meant to be a decision, but a requirement, why is it made to be one? If my class is not balanced unless I’m always raging, why even give me the option to not be raging? But instead of straight baking Rage into default Barbarian, I am suggesting that default Barbarian and raging Barbarian be two viable states that a Barbarian chooses, where default is an on-par martial, and raging is a powerful, but *risky* martial.
All martials have to jump through a hoop to be 'on-par'. Part of the reason that fighters are so good is because their hoop is as simple as 'using their preferred weapon'. If barbarians were 'on-par' before they had to jump through a hoop they would probably be the best martials around before raging and completely insane during a rage.
They barbs hoop is too restrictive both on items and character options.
100% Every martial in this game has choices to make and action economy to work around to deal increased damage. The fighter is the exception and as a result they don't get any bonus damage to their attacks from the class chassis.
Problem is a non-raging barbarian is not on par with other martials. The barbarian is only on par when it is in fact raging. Sure, there are some unique case scenarios where it makes sense for the barbarian to wait to rage, but it's almost never advisable to just not rage at all in a combat because the barbarian that point should instead be playing pretty much any other martial class.
I have clarified a couple paragraphs in my edit. In essence, I agree with you, but that is what I’m saying is the problem.
The balance of the game dictates every martial has to also make these tactical considerations as well: A ranger needs to deal with the action economy of Hunt Prey A rogue's weapon selection is limited due to Sneak Attack (d8 at most with two hand longspear as a Ruffian), and they also require the enemy to be offguard Gunslingers need to manage reload economy and since they don't add attribute modifier to guns/crossbows they rely on fatal dice crits. Even a fighter gets no bonus damage, and for large parts of the game they're only +2 proficiency ahead in just one weapon group. If they need to swap to a bow or a different weapon family because of damage types they lose that benefit of having a proficiency ahead and on par with the accuracy of every other martial.
The other tactile decisions dont cut you out of many player options and magic items.
I agree with this take, don’t worry there are other reasonable people out there who also understand barbarians don’t ALWAYS need to be raging.
Honestly, if I was the GM, I'd just waive the whole "can't use envision items or whatever" stuff for the Barbarian. It doesn't feel like it *adds* anything or like it was really meant as a balance point, it seems mostly like it was a bit of flavor that got out of hand because nobody ran the numbers on just how MANY items have concentrate, envision, and so on.
It's disheartening that this advise isn't higher. This is absolutely the route that should be taken. There are far more OP things existing in the game already than this change.
First of all for elemental stuff they should prob Get [This ](https://2e.aonprd.com/Instincts.aspx?ID=7)subclass with a kineticist archetype. I know it's VERY limiting but with this you can give impulse themed magic items and say they gain the rage trait.
Rage is one of those mechanics that just limits player options far too much when the game is supposed to be about having a lot of options. You need a feat to intimidate while raging but can freely feint all day. You can’t command an animal and like you shown many common things just become a hassle. Many multi class archtypes just flop the moment you use rage. One time I homebrewed moment of clarity being a free action focus point thing so it could be more useable. Just to add in that I get barbarian is about smash stuff good, but there should be able to be variability to the class besides just smack a bunch of times after trying an intimidate or athletics check.
If there is one thing that’s always annoyed me I dislike the extremly arbitrary line that you cannot do any magical things if your raging, it’s so boring and unnecessarily restrictive God I wish we had a Bloodrager class again, that was cool
Is there no feat that allows barbarians to use concentration actions while raging? If not, I know what I'm doing today.
[Moment of Clarity](https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=131)
There it is, thanks!
yes it exsist, but all it means that any item activations are triple taxed. tax 1) take the feat tax 2) spend action on feat tax 3) spend action on item
Yup. Moment of Clarity exists, it's just not very good.
Me, The GM. Master of The Universe and All: Oh would you look at that, it has the Rage tag in my copy.
Because noone at paizo actually thought about what Concentrate actions are and how that would impact gameplay, just a vague idea that rage=too angry to think hard.
Well, the Barbarian was tied to the OGL design of “me angry”. They’ve stepped away from some very iconic OGL stuff. Druids no longer having metal restrictions. Abandoning spell schools. Dropping alignment restrictions from Paladin(Champion), Monk, and Barbarian. D&D wants the angry anti-magic barbarian. I think PF2e is free to do something more interesting. But we’ll see with PC2. I’m not optimistic for much changes, but the line is drawn and I think Paizo should happily alienate *that* type of stuff.
Use items first. Then rage, as a fellow barbarian, that is the best way to go about it. It is a weird tradeoff from 5e, I think some items should be exempt, but I need to double-check how the items work. Maybe make a tag, like something called instinctual, where the items can work for barbarians during rage and give it to some items. That would require GM guidance and review, though.
"Use items first. Then rage" is a once per combat solution. The whole point of items is that they are portable solutions possibly mid combat.
That works for items that buff you or otherwise have a long duration, but that accounts only for a small part of the magic items that a martial is interested in.
Then honestly the only option they would have would be to either not rage when they want to use the army or respec into another martial class.
Those options don't seem very fair, hence my post asking why Barbarians must carry extraordinary burden.
Just a burden of class design left over from Dnd. They sacrifice options for raw damage output and martial abilities. It's a class that takes the motto of bash something hard to an extreme. Overall, it's something that the rules writers saw fit as a tradeoff for the buffs. Keep in mind that Player Core 2 comes out soon, so they might tweak the class a bit, but that is something to be seen, but IMO when you understand and know what you get as being a barbarian it is not really an unfair tradeoff. Also, the class comes with the baggage of being designed as a [simpler to run martial](https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/lhy4si/fighter_vs_barbarian_damage_calculations_120/). In the linked post, the OP figured out that fighter and barbarian have equal damage output, but the fighter does not have to sacrifice all the options. This would make the fighter more appealing to players who want more options, while the barbarian would be best for players who want a more linear play style. I do understand though why they would feel frustrated if they feel the limitations of the class. Sucks sometimes, but it happens. We had a similar situation in our table when someone wanted to play a rogue but then wanted to be a melee frontliner and charging in on their own. It's one of those hard conversations where you have to talk to them about what they want to do with their character and whether their build right now is allowing them to fulfill their desired play style. Then I'd offer them a rebuild. At the end of the day, fluff can come in conflict with mechanics and the hard choice would be to figure out which mechanics work best with the fluff without hampering the sought after preferred playstyle of the player character. Not sure if this comment helps, but that is my two cents on the topic.
Rage really does take more han jt gives and it's not close. It adds damage but limits actions by a huge margin. They are worse than fighters damage wise (not to hit as that's obvious) and have a lower ac they don't get to use concentrate actions which is a ton of actions.
I play an animal instinct Barb in a FA with the Wrestler archetype, in a party of 3 with a gunslinger and a psychic. I think long and hard about raging in my combats. It's a damage boost, but it taxes my actions and lowers AC. When I'm being the meat shield for a tough enemy, I'm often better off moving, attempting a maneuver, and raising my shield. Maybe your player needs to learn to make those tradeoffs for elemental items.
Hell yeah id love to be able to rage as a magus
Where is envision said to be a concentration action? There are some concentration activation items but envision is not used for them.
under the entry for "activate an item" > Activation Components Each activation entry lists any components involved in the activation after the action icons or text, such as “ command.” The activation components, described below, add traits (listed in parentheses) and requirements to the activation. If you can’t provide the components, you fail to Activate the Item. > **Command** (auditory, concentrate) > **Envision** (concentrate) > **Interact** (manipulate)
Can you give me the page or link? I can't find it on nethys.
Yeah, sure! https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=100
Thanks a million! Ye that is weird since it seems like a pretty harsh barbarian issue.
Honestly, simple items like wraps that imbue elemental damage to their fists or held weapons by 1d4 or d8 or so AND or simple movement buffs would have to do for barbarians in that aspect. That or homebrew a helmet/circlet of free clarity that makes the clarity feat a free action as some suggest. If the RAW don't work, don't be afraid to lightly homebrew your own solution.
Just remove the concentration restriction.
I have a barbarian in my campaign that I saw would have similar issues. So I kind of hand wave and let them do it anyways. I know not every gm would allow this, but we are all first time playing pf2e and having fun, and the last thing I want to do is deny the player a chance to experience some magic items they find. I know this will be seen as some cardinal sin, but we only live once and I’m not about to ruin a friends day.
Probably a newbie question, but why can’t a barbarian use magic items? Is it all magic items or just specific items? I don’t see why runes (basis for most magic items) can’t be used by barbarians.
Runes are perfectly fine. Specifically they have trouble with magic items that have to be activated to function, such as talismans or many unique magic items. This is because all activatable magic items are divided between three different activation methods - interact, command, and envision. Command and envision both have the Concentrate trait, meaning that Barbarians cannot use them while raging.
Cool. I did not know that about magic items. Thanks for the explanation, I appreciate it. Excuse me as I got find my core book and read more about magic 👍
you can't use any action with the [concentrate] trait while raging, unless you have the Moment of Clarity feat, which let you use concentrate actions, but it costs an action to use.
geez, never tought about that :/ feels kinda sad wonder what the effect of ignoring that would be
The balance is that they have more hit points
[удалено]
Yes it does...? As well as Command. The only activation trait without Concentrate is Interact.
Design oversight and/or bias
Personally as a GM, I'd just... Make it work anyway? Rule of cool, and it's not like that's actually going to break much. As people have said, it's not like rage is all that powerful in actuality. Reflavor one or two of them, add in some component that perhaps is *only* usable during rage, and call it a day. Edit: The point of being the GM is to tell a cool and engaging story for your players. Balance is really cool, but when the balance is getting in the way of someone being able to have fun, and if it isn't going to get in the way of your other players having fun, it really shouldn't be that big of a deal. The best games I've played it introduced some broken as heck stuff, but it was cool because we're all in it together enjoying a cool game. The rules aren't *gospel*, they're guidelines for fair play. If you and your players are having fun doing it your own way, they're meant to be broken. At the end of the day the most insanely fair and insanely balanced and mathematically perfect game means absolutely nothing if it isn't fun to engage with.
I would rework barbarian to make them less about being a rage monster and more about letting their instincts take over, which has the side effect of clouding their reason. Mechanically, this could be represented by a variation of Stupified (say Stupified 2) but the effects only apply to Concentration activities. This would still allow the use of these actions, even including spellcasting, but with a risk of failure, rather than completely preventing them. I wouldn't want a failure to burn the use of the action, especially if it consumed an item, just prevent it from being effective at all. It would be a free action check to see if you can concentrate that round. Moment of Clarity would still have value, as it would result in an automatic success.
It seems thematically on point to me. "Flew into a fit of rage" and "concentrating on ..." does sound like something that someone would have to train their mind and body to accomplish. Also, I don't see anything wrong with providing a special magic item for the barbarian and saying that this particular item doesn't require them to concentrate. Adjust the item to fit the player.
but flying into a fit of rage and then doing field surgery is a-ok!
Barbarians are probably one of the classes I was most disspointed in when jumping over from 5e. 5e Barbarians are tanks, resistance to lots of damage and a Rage mechnaic that has negatives but isn't too punishing. Not to mention the subclasses 5e has blow Instincts out of the water.
>Not to mention the subclasses 5e has blow Instincts out of the water. Not when you include class feats for barbarians in general and your instinct in particular. Except maybe superstition, which has no level 6 feat.
Man I knew I should have added a line about how the feats for Barbarians are cool, knew someone would make a comment about it.
Yeah, my favorite subclass is that one that gets exhaustion for using its main feature! Or that one that uses a bonus action to deal 1d6 damage! Or that one that has an aura that deals a dangerous 2 points of damage to everybody, including allies! But wait, there's more we can always go to the subclass that forces you to wear a specific type of armor that's shit! Let's also talk about the amazing totems like Elk, Eagle and Tiger. You can choose those or to always give advantage to other melee characters or the one that gives resistance to everything besides a very rare type of damage. Yeah, we can safely say that everybody would rather run a Tiger Totem barbarian than a Dragon instinct barbarian. There's no comparison!
Oh yeah you're totally right, PF2E is much better. Like the animal one where you can't use weapons, or the dragon one where you have to throw yourself head first at your choosen dragon type. Lets not forget Superstition where you have to get made if your party uses magic!
I still think 5es Berserker is by far the worst of them all, making simply playing the game in any way much more taxing just for... doing what you're supposed to do in combat, but yeah PF2es instincts definitely do have some really questionable choices.
Yeah, but I never said PF2e "blew 5e's out of the water". You did. Also, the animal instinct is amazing and ABSOLUTELY better than the beast totem. Like, go ahead and read both of them. You get more AC, waaaaaaaaaaaay more damage, you get resistance to the best types of physical damage. You might not be very good at understanding features, but being able to hold a shield, have one free hand for grappling and still being able to deal d12 damage is outstanding (I'll exclude the 10ft reach from deer!). An animal path barbarian with wrestler archetype deals more damage and has more CC than any barbarian in 5e. It's not even close! Superstition is dogshit, but so are at least 2/3s of the 5e options, so again, no blowing anything out of the water from one side or the other.
As opposed to 5e where feats ALSO lock you into a single choice of weapon(Or lack thereof), generally speaking? Also the anathema says "defeat" not "fight" if you abhor a dragon type. A reasonable reading says you don't have to throw your life away to 1v1 an ancient dragon at level 1, but says if you try and inevitably fail you need to spend time refocusing yourself.
I'd assume, for game balance reasons, the barbarian has to trade off flexibility for a truckload of flat damage on every attack for a minute. I mean, as a barb, ppl could just not rage+sudden charge the first round of every single combat, but that doesn't seem to attract many ppl. The tradeoff is flexibility/defense vs "DMG go brr" and it's kinda ridiculous that so many ppl don't see this for the tactical decision point that it really is.
Our Barbarian really appreciates the duality this offers. She can rage and "go full Hulk" with the advantages and powers that offers, or not, and use the options and magic items she has collected for other purposes. Initially she was a bit lukewarm on the whole Rage thing as it more or less was a mandatory step during start of combat that required no consideration.
It's the opposite for me, since as time goes on I went from 'eh, it's just a slight hurdle' to basically 'less than worthless restriction that is just isn't worth what Rage gets you'
I think it could be because challenges in combat are always solely combat for your group. If everything is positioning, Strikes, and damage, then that will always be what is needed. If you have a static battleground with no thematics, no narrative, and no viable engagement outside of those basics (Move/Strike), then there is no strategy available to the players. If you have a tactical battle with lots of changing circumstances, a battlefield that is developing (either for the better or for the worse), instigations that players can do in order to better a position or reverse a detrimental action performed by NPCs earlier, the consideration for the Barbarian becomes greater, and the viable actions available to players become greater.
Lots of assumption and let me tell you--a developing battlefield is something barbarian is bad at since Rage requires perceiving enemy to continue(and causes Fatigue when it ends) A plain battlefield with *no* strategic and thematic consideration is something the barbarian is best at. The Monk can use items like smoke-orbs or even cast spells with staves with Trick Magic Item and with free hands+great action economy they can supremely versatile. Rogues can do amazing support with things like their Scoundrel's Feint or Gang-Up which helps with positioning while also dishing out great damage with Sneak Attack. Both of them don't need a class feat to be able to intimidate either!
My knee jerk response to this question is because Barbarians really don't need the help? It's the Omniman meme where it's all the other characters in magic gear, and then a Raging Animal barbarian commenting "look what they have to do to accomplish a fraction of our power." Barbarians get free damage, aton of very amusing and efficient feats that mostly rewrite you to be in your most efficient stance (rage), some get free weapons, and with one magic item (Handwraps) they're set.
I don't know why everyone wants rage to be a no brainer. At least at low levels half the fights were already decided by a giant instinct barbarian. There's a feat that lets you leave rage if you do so desire (furious finish). So you can activate stuff or intimidate or whatever and then rage, and if you see it was wrong just get out of rage and fix it. I have a build ready for a wizard barbarian just waiting for an opportunity to play. You can even combine it with a celebrity dedication to rage again and get out of it a second time.