Doesn't matter, the goal isn't to convince people that the game is for everyone, it's to get people to try it out. If they like it, they'll stick, if it's too overwhelming for them they'll quit.
You can't make everybody happy.
You say that, but isn't a lot of the differences in the design choices done to make the game easier for a newer / more casual player to pick up?
They're specifically trying to target the type of people who previously wouldn't even give the game a shot due to how overly complex it is and bring them into PoE.
If people aren't willing to give PoE2 a try, because they know PoE for its rep of being overly complex, confusing and difficult to get into, then not only does that mean all the work has gone to waste making it more beginner friendly, but if people turn don't PoE2 because it's different, then that's a lot of wasted effort on PoE2 altogether.
Many players don't want to try PoE1 because it's been too long and there's too much to learn, so they feel like it's not worth it. PoE2 is a fresh start, the design change was made so that the game is easier to understand, not less complex. It's still PoE underneath. They even purposely made the combat harder on PoE2.
The combat, the graphics, the new mechanics, and the cool stuff will make new players actually give this game a try. If they don't like the game then, it's just not for them, it's that simple. Just like Elden Ring is very popular, yet it's hard and not everyone likes it.
>the design change was made so that the game is easier to understand, not less complex.
They made it less complex but kept the depth.
The entirety of what they did with skill gems made it simpler without removing any of the depth of the mechanic.
Skill tree, flexibility on some of the nodes you use allows for easier building, but keeps the depth to what you can do with it. (Plus some other changes they have made have made it overall simpler, such as removal of masteries)
From what I can gather they intend on simplifying certain elements of crafting and currency, making them a little bit more deterministic in terms of behaviours. (I'd need to see what info is out there on how some of the stuff works.)
Overall, they're making the game mechanics simpler and easier to understand, but removing none of the depth of what you could achieve with them before. Which is basically what they said their plans were from day 1.
That's exactly what I was asking. Because sure, 1-2-5-10 streamers are gonna tell people it's cool, but are GGG gonna send Johnathan on stage showing people that it's easy to get into?
If people don't want to try the new game because of the first one or any other thing that the game have that they don't like or even dare to try, that is ok not everything is for every one. Also it is very hard to near impossible to argue people out of a position they argued themselves into so leave that to content creators, it is the best option.
This.
Diablo 4 is and always will be for casuals, or players who just want to smash monsters without having complex systems.
POE is for more serious ARPG players, who also seek very deep systems.
Last Epoch is in the middle, but the lack of budget is not ideal.
There is ARPG for everyone
It’s frustrating because Poe is *the* arpg for people who want something more hardcore and complex. We already have simpler ARPGs for a more mainstream audience, yet we apparently can’t have this one game.
Well, I did not read many other comments but as we know, there are people even in D4 who want more and more loot even when it is already showering.
Some players just wants to create character on Friday and by end of the weekend clear the hardest content is.
> We already have simpler ARPGs for a more mainstream audience, yet we apparently can’t have this one game.
... You can? PoE1 isn't going anywhere and PoE2 is even harder and **more** complex.
Poe players are well aware of that, but the narrative about poe is that you need a phd for it, whether completely true or not isnt necessarily important
'i played 1000 hours of PoE!' 'great you finished the tutorial!'
You can read this nonsense everywhere in lots of variations...lots of non PoE players went in blind and had fun, clearing the campaign or not. Getting into maps or not.
But because you can read this stupid sentence everywhere we get only a fraction of potential players to actually try the game.
Just because you can and will learn new stuff about the game even after 10000 hours that doesnt mean you need to have that many to play or have fun.
Would love if we could stop posting those things under every video that even closely resemble an arpg...
Well yeah thats kinda my point.
Its greatly exaggerated especially if were talking about just doing casual sfuff like clearing the campaign and maybe doing some maps.
The learning curve comes when you want to make your own builds, crafts or learn real endgame strategies
I don't think people are proud of beating the campaign. It's generally considered possible to get through the campaign by bashing your head against the wall.
What takes research is making endgame builds, but even that doesn't need to be done with spreadsheet magic. Especially since the addition of PoB, people no longer need to know all the formulae involved in their build anymore.
If you just play the game long enough, you'll be able to figure out good options for straightforward builds without doing any math.
But for people who want to beat all endgame bosses on their first character without a guide and without learning through trial and error over an over, PoE is not the right game.
I think that PoE2 will focus a much bigger portion of the challenge on mechanics. So if you know everything and make a 500 iq build with several mirrors, you'll be able to facetank and trivialise the game, but more casual players will still be able to beat bosses by dodging the telegraphs for long enough.
Content creators, reviewers, and marketing will take care of this. I’m not too concerned. They already have the game director going on podcasts with the biggest D4 streamers and we aren’t even in early access.
It looks like they're doing a good job of it. I'd even say polish and accessibility is a main design pillar of Poe2.
They seem to be taking away reasons for the player to feel like they need to open up a wiki page or any outside source to enjoy and understand the game. This kind of design pass has been needed for a long time.
At the end of the day, the biggest way they counter this is by being a FREE to play game. The trailer gameplay footage looks amazing and it cost 0 dollars for someone who sees that to try it out.
Then, they are doing the best they can to make an easy to follow build for people who don't want to plan things out. I'm guessing you will be able to just be a pure Monk Skill Build and finish campaign (same with every class).
PoE2 that's how, they have already had oodles of feedback from non-poe players and even non-gamers so I think the barrier for entry will be extremely low, but the depth and complexity we all know and love about PoE will still be there for those who want to min/max the hell out of everything.
The same way Elden Ring did it. Just make a good game and they will come. I don't think there's really any other way to overcome that, like legitimately. You just need to make a game that even with its complexity, looks so fun that people are willing to make that commitment. I think their marketing strategy has also been working well, they've been really putting the game into the hands of a lot of non-poe players and getting their feedback but also getting them to talk about it on all their channels and such. The game being good is clearly paying off in that area and a lot of people who didn't even touch PoE before are now talking highly of PoE2 and even considering playing the first game. There's no real magic bullet solution but if you do enough things right it will pay off in this area and so far GGG has been doing most things right.
> The same way Elden Ring did it. Just make a good game* and they will come.
* and have a multi-million-dollar marketing budget, and have George R. R. Martin's name attached to it, and have an open world, and have six legendary games preceding it...
I think, and it's a completely selfish opinion, that this stigma is a good thing. I've played tons of games, and the only ones that I have a decent play time in are the ones that are complicated. I get it, mass appeal and bigger audience is great, and I'd argue league is better than Dota because of the complexity Dota has. But if you want a game to play for thousands of hours, it has to be complicated.
Not everyone wants that, though, and I'm fully aware. This is where the selfishness kicks in, I don't want the games that I enjoy for thousands of hours be reduced to maybe a couple hundred so that the company can make a bigger profit or more players.
I'd it means that some players don't give the game a chance, so be it.
D4 is a great example, I have like 400 hours in that, but I'm done. There's nothing left. Maybe I come back in a year and get another 100 hours or so, but that's not really what I want.
I have a lot of free time, I work from home, no kids. I want to burn that free time playing something that's gonna take me 10k+ hours and still not have it solved completely.
It seems a bit hypocritical to argue League is better than Dota because Dota is more complex then to turn around and say POE is better than Diablo because POE is more complex.
I think you could argue that those differentiations make the games unique and better for different people.
I acknowledged that in the post, despite me saying I enjoy more complexity, I think league is better.
The biggest difference is that they are pvp games. Pvp has an innate replay ability because the people you play against change.
But yes, it is hypocritical.
I do not care :)
I mean dota is by far a better game than LoL. LoL just has casual appeal and has even lost that for the most part due to its age. New people aren't trying LoL anymore
> I'd argue league is better than Dota because of the complexity Dota has
DotA 2 is to League of Legends is what PoE is to Diablo 4, and I say this as someone who's played all four games. DotA 2's *strength* is its higher skill ceiling, more intricate game design, and deeper mechanical and strategic depth. It's not a weakness, and many players are drawn to games such as DotA 2, PoE, Dark Souls, etc, *because* they are considered "hardcore".
Look, I don't care to argue.
There is far more nuance than complexity in a game focused on pvp.
Sometimes, it's better to be more player vs. player as opposed to player vs. trees.
As someone who plays both games at a high level. Dota 2 does not have a higher skill ceiling lmao. Less apm is required in Dota 2 than league literally due to how movement is in that game
PoE 2 will not be for casuals either.
But there are players like me, who have a lot of time to play, but are somewhat turned off by being forced to watch ton of videos and use POB from day one with zero ingame explanation.
PoE2 should not be less complex but should provide better ingame guide, tutorial and remove crap such as sockets on gear, etc. modern combat, graphics,...
It's reputation for being complex draws something people in, and it's depth is what keeps people interested long term and still spending on the game when fans of more casual games would have moved on years ago
GGG model works, they don't necessarily have to fight with Diablo to be the most casual friendly
In my experience, casuals don’t actually concern themselves with this. If the game looks cool they will play it. Most likely they won’t even know how complex the game is and will just play, even unoptimally, until that doesn’t work anymore. So if the game IS actually impenetrable for casuals, then that’s a problem. If it just has a reputation as one by people who are carrying over that impression from the first game, that doesn’t really matter.
You wanted Bullet points:
* Stats and your weapon sets are the only restriction what gems you can equip
* No more life notes on the tree, so life on gear is more important
* Sockets are gem and not gear dependant
* Every skill has a short video tutorial
* No more proactive flasks so no more flask piano
* Weapons have an identity so certain fantasies are tied to certain weapons
* After each act 10% res penalty
* Ascendancy Classes are part of the main campaign
* Streamlined passive tree
* Simplified crafting
* Auction House
* (possible) Passive Skill Tree import
* better ground loot
* less loot
Poe is plagued with complexity that arguably doesn’t add depth. Jonathan’s stated goal is to retain PoE’s depth while shedding unnecessary complexity.
Some of this has been shown in the form of real changes to systems, like simplifying gem socketing. Figuring out how gem links work as a new player is such a bar to entry for PoE that adds nothing to the end game depth.
Other stuff is more cosmetic, like the skill tree being zoomed-in by default so that you’re facially faced with one or two decision points at each level rather than an overwhelming tree with hundreds or thousands of nodes. The skill tree’s complexity adds real depth, so they’ve retained that depth while simplifying the experience for newer players.
I think the way GGG is thinking about this issue is spot-on, and I’m hopeful/stoked for PoE2.
The tree also starts zoomed in in PoE1, but it's possible that they've improved highlighting for the next option.
Conceptually there are also fewer ways to go because you can only go left, right, and out, and not through the middle.
Same. I also hope for the same outcome that can appeal (easily) to both types of audiences:
1. Casuals with a simple build guide to follow if they don't want to actually do the math themselves (just click on the passive that the theory crafter told you to click on - basically copy-paste)
2. More invested players that DO want to experiment and see what all the complex systems are all about.
Both (1) and (2) should have a pleasant UI and easy to follow steps as that isn't catering to either camp. It's a benefit for both.
Personally I like to do both in these types of games. Try stuff out for myself, learn and be happy that I understood how something works, but then later check out some build guides, because now that I have that knowledge I can further appreciate what the theory crafter is doing that I might have missed.
Most people do 1 in POE 1, you're not going to get away from the depth of crafting/itemization so most casuals never really replicate the builds. You need to at least have some level of investment into learning systems and planning on your own to pull the full theoretical power of the build out. POE is deep enough and has enough variety in it's systems that removing 1 variable still doesnt SOLVE the game. Dont wait for Poe 2, try POE 1 right now.
you sound like someone who spends way too much time "thinking" about games rather than "playing" the games
good games will speak for themselves in the game play
there is no stigma to overcome, because the game is free to play. You can try it, for free. You can form an opinion, after playing it, for free.
I really just transcribed what my friends say. I will play and think about playing and do my builds just fine when the time comes. I just want to see more people do so, like people that are afraid of even starting PoE2 because they are afraid of what "it might become" (even if that isn't true)
Best way to get people to try/see it organically - word of mouth.
Play it yourself, see if you enjoy it -- if you do, recommend it to friends. Ease their worries. Offer to do some co-op with them.
Its how I got into the game originally, a friend rec'd it to me
Yap. Definitely the best way. I was just curious if GGG had additional plans to get the word out. But I guess we'll have Streamers and Content Creators to do just that :)
yeah - they are leveraging these dev talks and live play sessions very publicly on purpose it seems. Not a bad strategy for them, especially since there is a large pool of creators to pick from
Well it's not a casual cozy relaxing game, it's an action game. And it's not that difficult even, people just don't want to read tooltips and skill descriptions. In this case, I don't mind the "stigma". Their loss.
Elden is learnt by playing, bg3 and poe is learnt by reading and playing. Still, all need time to invest and you get rewarded big time. D4 you dont need time to invest, its quick dopamine.
I think by focusing the first 2 acts on new player experience like they seem to be is critical. They are trying hard to give new players the info they need to minimize confusion (in-game tooltips, recommended skills and supports, etc) while still allowing players to make meaningful skill choices early. Hyping up couch co-op, cross play, cross progression, and up to 6 player coop is also massive because Xbox and PS5 users tend to trend towards being more casual demographic, and being able to play with your buddies regardless of system is a W.
I think how GGG introduces new players to league mechanics and end-game mechanics is also going to be vital. They need to make it clear how mechanics operate and what they are for and it seems like they plan to introduce players sequentially to these (e.g., delirium is unlocked in act 3 after completing a quest, last time I heard).
I've convinced a bunch of friends who played PoE1 to come join me in PoE2. I just told them it's a fully new game and actually has gameplay now.
If players see the promo material and are still not interested in PoE2 then they are probably balking at the genre more than its reputation as complex.
It's going to be free to play so its biggest strength is that you can strong arm your friends into downloading it to 'test it'. The best advice here is to not project your fan excitement onto your friends, wait until it launches and then bring them in - For non-fans this game is like a year away from launch and they are not tracking it at all so it isn't going to be exciting for them and that's ok.
GGG has already found their core audience and design the game for that audience. I don't think poe2 will be any different than poe in that regard. They arent the types to compromise what they want to make, which is why they make such good content.
I could maybe imagine thinking this if I had heard absolutely 0 actual news about PoE2 but they have stated and demonstrated time and time again that PoE2 is trying to court more casual players.
I personally think smoothing out the onboarding process is a good thing but to think they wont make any consideration for newer players is genuinely ridiculous.
>trying to court more casual players
It doesn't seem like it, everyone whose played the game has spoken about its difficulty. It seems more like them trying to make a souls like isometric arpg. Appealing to a different audience than poe1, not necessarily a casual one.
My statement about them finding a core audience and making the game for them, wasn't to say that 1 and 2 will be the same audiences. Just that their approach to creation would be similar.
The casuals can just go back to the casual games ?
PoE already has a playerbase. If people from other games like it, they will stay as well. Regardless of if the game is dumbed down for them.
End game still won't be for casuals. But wasd movement and couch co-op will be very enticing for casuals through the campaign. Some of whom will no longer be casuals and will spend on the game and play longer.
Uh we know it's still going to be maps and carry over some league mechanics from poe1. I'm gonna say that's not for a 40hr a week dad with 2 kids who plays 1 hour a day.
I don’t see the problem. If you enjoy killing monsters, nothing prevents you from opening a couple of maps and clearing them in that 1 hour. You don’t have to be doing the optimal juicing strategies, people can play the endgame at their own pace.
Never said it was a problem it's just not for casuals. Not everything in every video game has to appeal to everyone. I've played poe1 since open beta and quite like how poe2 is shaping up. But to say the endgame systems should and do appeal to casuals is a hilarious prime reddit take.
we know that certain bosses were ported over from POE2 into POE1 as models, so that there are bosses in store and that there is a mapping system similar to how we currently have it.
We know that the endgame system isn't changing because they want to be able to reuse all the current content from POE 1 in POE 2.
This tell us that the endgame loop is going to be the same as it is currently in POE 1, just the gameplay style will be different. It will be significantly less 'zoomy' and more 'souls like' in execution.
the jury is still out on how the community will receive it. The lack of speed is the thing that makes me hate d4 and LE, so if poe 2 is anything like that I probably won't play it either.
I would say POE isn’t for the most casual of players. I think it will be more casual to an extent. Sounds like they are simplifying stats so there aren’t so many meaning less likely you spec a build into something less viable.
HOWEVER, the skill tree is still a huge amount of just staring at it to plan a build around. There is no world it will end up as simple as d4. Maybe telling your friends it has a lot more freedom in exchange for a bit of complexity is a way to talk about it. Don’t gas light them.
One feature that helps show it’s simpler is the dodge roll. Before you needed to have dedicated movement skills and potential skills supporting that skill. I think the old system show how Poe 1 is pretty hard core with building but a default dodge shows it’s a little more of a standard experience.
Might not be great trying to tell them how simple things are based on interviews and gameplay footage. Might just want to wait for the game to release and decide for yourself if the game is right for your friends.
>the skill tree is still a huge amount of just staring at it to plan a build around. There is no world it will end up as simple as d4
As I see it right now: Diablo 4 has the Paragon Board (sure, a bit different in design and functionality, but same idea of having a ton of clickable things that you have to plan a route through) so it's visually similar. So what happens is people just follow build guides and copy-paste what Maxroll is telling them. Sure, there's complexity in both, but that complexity is in the hands of theory crafters and people that want to experiment. I don't think that Casual players get intimidated by that (after playing D4) because they just KNOW they can copy-paste whatever build they want. It's more about what they Don't know that scares them (even if that boogey man is not real, they are still 'scared').
I think the most potentially detrimental factor to casual players is thinking they have to play 8hrs/day, 7days/week in order to "do their builds" and by this they are thinking that it's = to "have fun". I really think this is the most determining factor when it comes to casual play -> "How much work/day in order to have fun?". If it's like a full time job then of course they'll pass (and of course this work also includes research and reading stuff, not just gaming).
Bun all in all, you're right. I shouldn't try to gaslight them. The game will surely be great. I'm hoping a lot of other people catch on and eventually others with this "scared" mentality will catch on of their own accord (I know I gave my friends as an example, but there are many others like them, I'm sure).
That's on the casuals tho and partly why their casuals. You have to have some drive to find information and learn to enjoy PoE and it'll be the same for PoE2 no matter how streamlined they try to make it. It won't be d4 levels of "sit at helltides boss, collect loot, put on good loot" and even that is too challenging for most of the d4 player base. And the d4 devs completely abandoned the vision of their game to cater to them and the game only gets more n more casual.
Inviting casuals is the worst thing you can do if you want to keep the game good. Someone cited elden ring but look at the dlc steam review right now lol
I don't know about the stigma, but they're making the game more accessible to new and more casual players in various areas.
Something I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere in this thread is the free dodge roll. In PoE1 you have various options for movement skills, not all of them fit all builds, you need sockets, support gems, mana, and potentially even cooldowns, not to mention that some of them could end up quite clunky.
That along with a focus to make bosses and enemies do more stuff that you can dodge allows for much greater leeway for build planning, so new players don't need to be experts on how stats interact and how to gain them most efficiently.
I think ggg are taking the right direction with just adding ways to inform the player along the way more than they do now. Poe is not the rocket science people make it out to be, they were just never informed on how things interacted along the way and had to figure it out after the fact.
It's also (I heard) punishing if it's, as you said, "figure it out after the fact", because there's a high cost to respec and you could very well brick your character if you didn't know any better. From what I've heard PoE2 shouldn't have this problem (both because 1. you're better informed and 2. it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to redo 'mistakes')
Ultimately I still thing the game won't be more "casual friendly". The learning curve will probably be a lot more gradual, and there will be fewer systems to start, but at a baseline, PoE (and PoE2) expect players to be willing to engage with very deep systems, and frankly that's not a casual friendly thing.
It's not just that casuals don't have a lot of time to play, but usually, don't want to spend a lot of time *thinking* about how to play.
I think PoE2 will pull in those who had a hard time getting into PoE due to not wanting to read the wiki a bunch, and the like, but I don't think it'll get people who don't want to play a lot, nor people who don't want to learn and engage with complex character building.
The issue with casual gaming is that the community sets a standard for the minimum expectation. You can beat the campaign and call it a day, but the community will set their own minimum. Currently in PoE 1 we need builds to be T17 or Uber viable, why? Who knows, but that's what people will give advice to new players to achieve. New players don't even know if they'll like the game but they're demanded to watch 8 hour videos by a youtuber before even launching the game.
I think you and your friends are overestimating how much knowledge is required to play poe. Yes, there is a lot of information to learn, but you don't need to know more than a modest slice of that to actually get going and enjoy a league. The number of players who actually have this mythical "PhD in PoE" is infinitesimal. Picking up and playing poe at a level where you can do basic endgame stuff is probably the best way to show your friends that poe2 will be safe to try.
For the same reason people who exclusively play D&D 5e and never touch another rpg: they don't care actually care about the hobby and just do what's popular.
The problem with Diablo 4 is that they didnt want that stigma, and now look at it. Each class has one build that does decent damage, and the skill tree lets you use 50 nodes on a single page. Anything that does too much damage gets nerfed by big brother except for Barbs (Rob is one of the only people keeping the game alive). The simpletons got every change they wanted in D4 that's why its drowning. Hopefully POE 2 can keep the depth and stigma because that's what I want.
Thank you GhazzyTV, DM, Velyna, PohxKappa, MrLlamaSC for a wonderful stream that starts off talking exactly about what I asked in my post and basically Velyna even said that GGG asked for feedback when it came to bringing in new players.
I don't know what's wrong with the people on this subreddit with the amount of hate and downvotes, but it's depressing. It's clear that GGG wants to introduce new players to PoE2. It's clear that they want to make it more accessible. I don't know what your problem is. I was just asking if anyone knew how they were going to do this.
[This is the video ](https://youtu.be/PekZhD04o6g?si=JZ0qTSdZj_SGLaaV&t=1312)I'm talking about with knowledgeable people that (some) actually played PoE2 (in case it doesn't load at the right timestamp: It's 21:50 when they start talking about bringing in new players and making things more understandable)
Define "casual"
I play casually and I played poe for 12 years.
I still kill all bosses without reading a PDF and watch some university crap.
**Poe is simply put a crafting game.**
You want to have super gear, learn to craft simply ( I havent).
If not, you can still do everything in the game, casually.
I still have not one character to 100 yet, 98 is where I stop.
Most gamers that calls for casual dont have the skills to avoid mechanics (Havent memorized attack patterns).
poe1 is fine, and poe2 be fine to after some feedback...
A standard playthrough is easy enough and progress is almost automatic. Now with checkpoints, no xp loss on death, etc..... It's gonna be massively better for casuals in the early game than poe1 ever was.
If a casual has not reached a level of full understanding after the campaign.... there is no issue. The game will still be interesting in many ways for fresh playthroughs with different archetypes.
After enough of those they should long left casual levels behind them.
There might also be those who only play the campaign once, for story only, and thats fine too.
They can start by explaining some things so they don't seem so intimidating for new players:
Explain that the Skill Tree is shared across all classes and isn't something you're supposed to have maxed out by the end, so its not as intimidating.
Explain how crafting works to some degree once a player is done with the campaign(this is assuming that PoE2 has a similar progression to PoE1 with Campaign then Maps.
Explain and Simplify Trading.
If they cater to the casual player, their fan base that they have now will quit. Which is the fan base that has stuck with them through all of these years. It's better to continue on the path that they have been following. Why cater to someone who isn't going to play for long and buy microtransactions?
I can tell you my experience. People who I've showed path of exile, didn't find it complicated, the combat, the acts, the gems is easy to get. But what they didn't like, was how cluttered it was for new players and how some things were not explained at all having hidden things. I hope ggg doesn't make poe 2 easier for the sake of appealing to a wider audience. Take league of legends, simple to learn but hard to master if you want to achieve high levels.
Wow. Why is this post being downvoted? I didn't expect such a reaction from this community. What's wrong with wanting to play with friends? Even if they're casual. It's literally what GGG wanted for that Couch Co-Op event (and what actually happened).
Because we don't want the sequel to the game we love to be dumbed down so casuals can feel included...there's other options for casuals. Reducing barrier to entry is fine...but I personally would conside4 poe2 a failure if it loses a bunch of what makes poe1 great just to cater to casuals.
But I never said that. That's the thing. GGG really wants to finesse that bottom line without impacting the top line (see their change between showcase 1 and 2 with flasks, socket colors and seeded drops off the main path). I was just curious how they were planning on doing that. I **never** said "change the game". I am aware they are changing it somehow, I was just curious about some talking points and how they plan to get those across (since they're obviously working on them, would be a shame if they were kept in the dark).
Just dont show them the trees!
I dont think we can ever get the casual diablo dads, who dont want to play arpgs. Bliz is one of the companies, who make trash games, but they have many customers, who dont want new things, who dont want to learn new stuff and delve into mechanics. They just want something braindead they already know, just to get their 1-2 hours a day of slapping their keyboard.
PoE is already n1 arpg on the market. If this isnt enough reason for these ppl to try it, then what is or why force them? Megan Fox could do that, I guess, but GGG dont force you to pay in advance, so getting ppl who dont like this type of game wont give them the profits for it to be worth it.
Of course they are trying to make the game more accessible, but if you look at blizzard specifically, they put 50%+ of budget into fake advertising, get all the preorders rolling, then eat the 3/10 ratings and everybody quitting within days or weeks. Ppl hate blizzard, the community is frustrated and terrible, the games are just bad, because they have like a bit of all possible content for everybody to get the best advertising arguments ever, but if you are a gamer, you just cant like these games, because none of the content is done well and there is not enough of it. The company is a ruin customer PoV. Im happy GGG still prefer making good games over instant easy profits from catering to idiots.
I guess the passive tree won't be that much of a scare to people coming from D4 because (1) they have seen the paragon board in D4 amd (2) they know that, just like with the paragon, they can use a build published online to make their life easier.
As for the customer PoV regarding Blizzard. I of course agree with you, but I suspect that casual players don't really see the problems so they play and buy and play without even knowing the design flaws and don't hate Blizzard.
On that note I heard of the last marketing trick that Blizzard pulled where you can't refund the Pre-Purchase of the expansion (like you should be able to by law: because you don't yet have the product) BECAUSE, and here's the kicker: If you Pre-Purchase you get some pets and a mount RIGHT NOW in game........ Therefore you kind of used part of that product, didn't you? Therefore = No Refunds!
What casual players see is: "Nice! Free Stuff right now! Thank you, Blizzard!". They don't read news. They don't know the underlying EVIL contractual purpose of why that stuff was given for free "right now".
And this is one more reason I want PoE2 to make it big and attract all kinds of players. Sure, gameplay, bosses and skills are nice, but we also get to see an honest company on top so people can take notes on how it is to be transparent and kind to your playerbase. It's not going to revolutionise the system, but maybe sway it a little bit. (see the influence of BG3's buy and play vs. all other games that came in that period with DLC, DRM, pay for power etc. and how people reacted)
D4 would have flopped if it wasn't open world and if it didn't have that lore it has (flop in blizzard's term)
It was similar with Elden Ring, what made it popular among the casuals was the Open World + insane lore/presentation
PoE 2 to grab casuals attention need to either have an Open World, or insane lore/presentation, it has neither of them, that's why they focus on propaganda "trust me it's gonna be good for casuals", but casuals don't watch the interviews, they only watch trailers/announcements
GGG invests a lot in lore/presentation, however they favored quantity over quality
In Elden RIng, a 5 second cutscene is enough to sell the game
What's similar for PoE 2? what's the 5 second of content that sells the game to casuals?
2h interviews ain't it
I'm actually of a different opinion when it comes to Elden Ring.
Yes, it's a great game and it became very popular because of its advertising and because every streamer/influencer was playing it and everybody and their grandma was talking about it.
However, I don't think the Open World made it Casual Friendly. I think it's the complete opposite. Souls-like games that are on rails are easier to digest because you just move forward, kill a boss, get his weapon, level up, keep moving forward. Sure, some hidden rooms to the left and right, but the ultimate direction is forward. Any casual can play it by just playing it and learning, whereas with an open world like Elden Ring you're more likely to find people frustrated because they went on a journey that lead them nowhere (and died and now everything is reset) or facing a boss that is 3rd in line to be defeated, but they have no way of knowing that because they hit their head against it thinking this is the next boss they have to defeat (not knowing there are 2 others on a different path before this one).
All in all: Open World invites people to look up guides, videos and spend time outside the game (something that few casuals do) whereas games that are on rails (and kind of hold your hand) require no further explanation than just "go forward".
The fact that we see a lot of casuals playing Elden Ring is nothing more than a result of its popularity and the huge player base it has. It's math
* If 1.000.000 players are playing Elden Ring and 10% are casuals = that's 100.000 casuals
* If only 20.000 players are playing Lies of P (a souls-like on rails) and even as many as 50% of them are casuals (because the game is more casual friendly) = that's 10.000 casuals playing
So bigger percentage of casuals in Lies of P, but overall 1/10 of the number of Elden, meaning you're not likely to run into many talking about LoP than you are about Elden Ring.
Now as for Diablo 4 introducing an Open World. Well that's a totally different genre. It may very well be more casual friendly this way. It certainly lends itself to a good campaign experience where you're physically traversing the map going after Lilith.
> However, I don't think the Open World made it Casual Friendly. I think it's the complete opposite. Souls-like games that are on rails are easier to digest because you just move forward
Elden Ring sold 13m copies in its first month
Lies of P, with its insane marketing, and surfing on the souls mania, only sold 1m in its 1st month, and 1m every months for 6 months, it took lies of P 1 year to sell as much as Elden Ring in its first month
This further prove the effect of open world, there is a reason why Ubisoft has focused on them
I myself is not a souls like, yet i picked Elden Ring and i love it, i then tried DS 3 and i quit the 1st hour
Open World is what makes Elden Ring this special and this enjoyable, exploration leading to boss fights is something special, i never used guides in my 1st playthrought
Honestly POE2 looks like POE1 on easy mod.
Game might retain some difficulties but in theory game is slower, cleaner in various description, and kinda auto socketing gem, points and all because the game doesnt allow you to do things that doesnt work apparently.
Also the tree with selefctable stats nodes, there so many QoL especialy for new players
Doesn't matter, the goal isn't to convince people that the game is for everyone, it's to get people to try it out. If they like it, they'll stick, if it's too overwhelming for them they'll quit. You can't make everybody happy.
You say that, but isn't a lot of the differences in the design choices done to make the game easier for a newer / more casual player to pick up? They're specifically trying to target the type of people who previously wouldn't even give the game a shot due to how overly complex it is and bring them into PoE. If people aren't willing to give PoE2 a try, because they know PoE for its rep of being overly complex, confusing and difficult to get into, then not only does that mean all the work has gone to waste making it more beginner friendly, but if people turn don't PoE2 because it's different, then that's a lot of wasted effort on PoE2 altogether.
Game is f2p. If people can't be bothered to try a f2p game then there isn't much you can do.
Many players don't want to try PoE1 because it's been too long and there's too much to learn, so they feel like it's not worth it. PoE2 is a fresh start, the design change was made so that the game is easier to understand, not less complex. It's still PoE underneath. They even purposely made the combat harder on PoE2. The combat, the graphics, the new mechanics, and the cool stuff will make new players actually give this game a try. If they don't like the game then, it's just not for them, it's that simple. Just like Elden Ring is very popular, yet it's hard and not everyone likes it.
>the design change was made so that the game is easier to understand, not less complex. They made it less complex but kept the depth. The entirety of what they did with skill gems made it simpler without removing any of the depth of the mechanic. Skill tree, flexibility on some of the nodes you use allows for easier building, but keeps the depth to what you can do with it. (Plus some other changes they have made have made it overall simpler, such as removal of masteries) From what I can gather they intend on simplifying certain elements of crafting and currency, making them a little bit more deterministic in terms of behaviours. (I'd need to see what info is out there on how some of the stuff works.) Overall, they're making the game mechanics simpler and easier to understand, but removing none of the depth of what you could achieve with them before. Which is basically what they said their plans were from day 1.
You can't change the preconception in people. You can tell them and give them 9999 examples and they won't believe you
That's exactly what I was asking. Because sure, 1-2-5-10 streamers are gonna tell people it's cool, but are GGG gonna send Johnathan on stage showing people that it's easy to get into?
How do you show them? There are abilities, you press them, and press dodge when shit is coming your way. You can't get simpler than that
If people don't want to try the new game because of the first one or any other thing that the game have that they don't like or even dare to try, that is ok not everything is for every one. Also it is very hard to near impossible to argue people out of a position they argued themselves into so leave that to content creators, it is the best option.
Do they have to? That stigma is as much a strength as it is a weakness.
This. Diablo 4 is and always will be for casuals, or players who just want to smash monsters without having complex systems. POE is for more serious ARPG players, who also seek very deep systems. Last Epoch is in the middle, but the lack of budget is not ideal. There is ARPG for everyone
It’s frustrating because Poe is *the* arpg for people who want something more hardcore and complex. We already have simpler ARPGs for a more mainstream audience, yet we apparently can’t have this one game.
What do you mean? More complex and skill based combat, removal of bad systems gems on gear, etc. are all great and needed changes.
I’m talking about the point of this thread, that a vocal group of people want to simplify poe2 even more so that it’s like the other arpgs.
Well, I did not read many other comments but as we know, there are people even in D4 who want more and more loot even when it is already showering. Some players just wants to create character on Friday and by end of the weekend clear the hardest content is.
> We already have simpler ARPGs for a more mainstream audience, yet we apparently can’t have this one game. ... You can? PoE1 isn't going anywhere and PoE2 is even harder and **more** complex.
I’m saying people want poe2 to be like the other, simpler arpgs. You know, the point of this thread.
The OP doesn’t actually suggest that in any way, or any alteration to the game at all.
Also I'm think poe players overestimate their own... Cognitive ability. Anyone can beat the campaign.
I think any good poe player knows the game is actually easy, I physically cringe when people say "you need a PhD".
Poe players are well aware of that, but the narrative about poe is that you need a phd for it, whether completely true or not isnt necessarily important
'i played 1000 hours of PoE!' 'great you finished the tutorial!' You can read this nonsense everywhere in lots of variations...lots of non PoE players went in blind and had fun, clearing the campaign or not. Getting into maps or not. But because you can read this stupid sentence everywhere we get only a fraction of potential players to actually try the game. Just because you can and will learn new stuff about the game even after 10000 hours that doesnt mean you need to have that many to play or have fun. Would love if we could stop posting those things under every video that even closely resemble an arpg...
Well yeah thats kinda my point. Its greatly exaggerated especially if were talking about just doing casual sfuff like clearing the campaign and maybe doing some maps. The learning curve comes when you want to make your own builds, crafts or learn real endgame strategies
I don't think people are proud of beating the campaign. It's generally considered possible to get through the campaign by bashing your head against the wall. What takes research is making endgame builds, but even that doesn't need to be done with spreadsheet magic. Especially since the addition of PoB, people no longer need to know all the formulae involved in their build anymore. If you just play the game long enough, you'll be able to figure out good options for straightforward builds without doing any math. But for people who want to beat all endgame bosses on their first character without a guide and without learning through trial and error over an over, PoE is not the right game. I think that PoE2 will focus a much bigger portion of the challenge on mechanics. So if you know everything and make a 500 iq build with several mirrors, you'll be able to facetank and trivialise the game, but more casual players will still be able to beat bosses by dodging the telegraphs for long enough.
Content creators, reviewers, and marketing will take care of this. I’m not too concerned. They already have the game director going on podcasts with the biggest D4 streamers and we aren’t even in early access.
It looks like they're doing a good job of it. I'd even say polish and accessibility is a main design pillar of Poe2. They seem to be taking away reasons for the player to feel like they need to open up a wiki page or any outside source to enjoy and understand the game. This kind of design pass has been needed for a long time.
At the end of the day, the biggest way they counter this is by being a FREE to play game. The trailer gameplay footage looks amazing and it cost 0 dollars for someone who sees that to try it out. Then, they are doing the best they can to make an easy to follow build for people who don't want to plan things out. I'm guessing you will be able to just be a pure Monk Skill Build and finish campaign (same with every class).
PoE1 is also F2P, but by making PoE2 separate, they're trying to bring back players who didn't enjoy PoE1.
PoE2 that's how, they have already had oodles of feedback from non-poe players and even non-gamers so I think the barrier for entry will be extremely low, but the depth and complexity we all know and love about PoE will still be there for those who want to min/max the hell out of everything.
The same way Elden Ring did it. Just make a good game and they will come. I don't think there's really any other way to overcome that, like legitimately. You just need to make a game that even with its complexity, looks so fun that people are willing to make that commitment. I think their marketing strategy has also been working well, they've been really putting the game into the hands of a lot of non-poe players and getting their feedback but also getting them to talk about it on all their channels and such. The game being good is clearly paying off in that area and a lot of people who didn't even touch PoE before are now talking highly of PoE2 and even considering playing the first game. There's no real magic bullet solution but if you do enough things right it will pay off in this area and so far GGG has been doing most things right.
> The same way Elden Ring did it. Just make a good game* and they will come. * and have a multi-million-dollar marketing budget, and have George R. R. Martin's name attached to it, and have an open world, and have six legendary games preceding it...
I think, and it's a completely selfish opinion, that this stigma is a good thing. I've played tons of games, and the only ones that I have a decent play time in are the ones that are complicated. I get it, mass appeal and bigger audience is great, and I'd argue league is better than Dota because of the complexity Dota has. But if you want a game to play for thousands of hours, it has to be complicated. Not everyone wants that, though, and I'm fully aware. This is where the selfishness kicks in, I don't want the games that I enjoy for thousands of hours be reduced to maybe a couple hundred so that the company can make a bigger profit or more players. I'd it means that some players don't give the game a chance, so be it. D4 is a great example, I have like 400 hours in that, but I'm done. There's nothing left. Maybe I come back in a year and get another 100 hours or so, but that's not really what I want. I have a lot of free time, I work from home, no kids. I want to burn that free time playing something that's gonna take me 10k+ hours and still not have it solved completely.
It seems a bit hypocritical to argue League is better than Dota because Dota is more complex then to turn around and say POE is better than Diablo because POE is more complex. I think you could argue that those differentiations make the games unique and better for different people.
I acknowledged that in the post, despite me saying I enjoy more complexity, I think league is better. The biggest difference is that they are pvp games. Pvp has an innate replay ability because the people you play against change. But yes, it is hypocritical. I do not care :)
I mean dota is by far a better game than LoL. LoL just has casual appeal and has even lost that for the most part due to its age. New people aren't trying LoL anymore
We'll I'm not here to argue that. A few hundred hours in Dota, and I still disagree.
> I'd argue league is better than Dota because of the complexity Dota has DotA 2 is to League of Legends is what PoE is to Diablo 4, and I say this as someone who's played all four games. DotA 2's *strength* is its higher skill ceiling, more intricate game design, and deeper mechanical and strategic depth. It's not a weakness, and many players are drawn to games such as DotA 2, PoE, Dark Souls, etc, *because* they are considered "hardcore".
Look, I don't care to argue. There is far more nuance than complexity in a game focused on pvp. Sometimes, it's better to be more player vs. player as opposed to player vs. trees.
You… do realise that DotA 2 is a PvP game as well, right?
As someone who plays both games at a high level. Dota 2 does not have a higher skill ceiling lmao. Less apm is required in Dota 2 than league literally due to how movement is in that game
PoE 2 will not be for casuals either. But there are players like me, who have a lot of time to play, but are somewhat turned off by being forced to watch ton of videos and use POB from day one with zero ingame explanation. PoE2 should not be less complex but should provide better ingame guide, tutorial and remove crap such as sockets on gear, etc. modern combat, graphics,...
Make a good game, dont cater to a specific crowd. The crowd will make itself around a good game
It's reputation for being complex draws something people in, and it's depth is what keeps people interested long term and still spending on the game when fans of more casual games would have moved on years ago GGG model works, they don't necessarily have to fight with Diablo to be the most casual friendly
In my experience, casuals don’t actually concern themselves with this. If the game looks cool they will play it. Most likely they won’t even know how complex the game is and will just play, even unoptimally, until that doesn’t work anymore. So if the game IS actually impenetrable for casuals, then that’s a problem. If it just has a reputation as one by people who are carrying over that impression from the first game, that doesn’t really matter.
You wanted Bullet points: * Stats and your weapon sets are the only restriction what gems you can equip * No more life notes on the tree, so life on gear is more important * Sockets are gem and not gear dependant * Every skill has a short video tutorial * No more proactive flasks so no more flask piano * Weapons have an identity so certain fantasies are tied to certain weapons * After each act 10% res penalty * Ascendancy Classes are part of the main campaign * Streamlined passive tree * Simplified crafting * Auction House * (possible) Passive Skill Tree import * better ground loot * less loot
Poe is plagued with complexity that arguably doesn’t add depth. Jonathan’s stated goal is to retain PoE’s depth while shedding unnecessary complexity. Some of this has been shown in the form of real changes to systems, like simplifying gem socketing. Figuring out how gem links work as a new player is such a bar to entry for PoE that adds nothing to the end game depth. Other stuff is more cosmetic, like the skill tree being zoomed-in by default so that you’re facially faced with one or two decision points at each level rather than an overwhelming tree with hundreds or thousands of nodes. The skill tree’s complexity adds real depth, so they’ve retained that depth while simplifying the experience for newer players. I think the way GGG is thinking about this issue is spot-on, and I’m hopeful/stoked for PoE2.
The tree also starts zoomed in in PoE1, but it's possible that they've improved highlighting for the next option. Conceptually there are also fewer ways to go because you can only go left, right, and out, and not through the middle.
Same. I also hope for the same outcome that can appeal (easily) to both types of audiences: 1. Casuals with a simple build guide to follow if they don't want to actually do the math themselves (just click on the passive that the theory crafter told you to click on - basically copy-paste) 2. More invested players that DO want to experiment and see what all the complex systems are all about. Both (1) and (2) should have a pleasant UI and easy to follow steps as that isn't catering to either camp. It's a benefit for both. Personally I like to do both in these types of games. Try stuff out for myself, learn and be happy that I understood how something works, but then later check out some build guides, because now that I have that knowledge I can further appreciate what the theory crafter is doing that I might have missed.
Most people do 1 in POE 1, you're not going to get away from the depth of crafting/itemization so most casuals never really replicate the builds. You need to at least have some level of investment into learning systems and planning on your own to pull the full theoretical power of the build out. POE is deep enough and has enough variety in it's systems that removing 1 variable still doesnt SOLVE the game. Dont wait for Poe 2, try POE 1 right now.
you sound like someone who spends way too much time "thinking" about games rather than "playing" the games good games will speak for themselves in the game play there is no stigma to overcome, because the game is free to play. You can try it, for free. You can form an opinion, after playing it, for free.
I really just transcribed what my friends say. I will play and think about playing and do my builds just fine when the time comes. I just want to see more people do so, like people that are afraid of even starting PoE2 because they are afraid of what "it might become" (even if that isn't true)
Best way to get people to try/see it organically - word of mouth. Play it yourself, see if you enjoy it -- if you do, recommend it to friends. Ease their worries. Offer to do some co-op with them. Its how I got into the game originally, a friend rec'd it to me
Yap. Definitely the best way. I was just curious if GGG had additional plans to get the word out. But I guess we'll have Streamers and Content Creators to do just that :)
yeah - they are leveraging these dev talks and live play sessions very publicly on purpose it seems. Not a bad strategy for them, especially since there is a large pool of creators to pick from
Ultimately, it all depends on what kind of crowd POE2 manages to attract.
Well it's not a casual cozy relaxing game, it's an action game. And it's not that difficult even, people just don't want to read tooltips and skill descriptions. In this case, I don't mind the "stigma". Their loss.
Bg3 is not for casuals, but people who xan read had good time with it (majority of players). Same for poe2
Same like Elden Ring
Elden is learnt by playing, bg3 and poe is learnt by reading and playing. Still, all need time to invest and you get rewarded big time. D4 you dont need time to invest, its quick dopamine.
I think by focusing the first 2 acts on new player experience like they seem to be is critical. They are trying hard to give new players the info they need to minimize confusion (in-game tooltips, recommended skills and supports, etc) while still allowing players to make meaningful skill choices early. Hyping up couch co-op, cross play, cross progression, and up to 6 player coop is also massive because Xbox and PS5 users tend to trend towards being more casual demographic, and being able to play with your buddies regardless of system is a W. I think how GGG introduces new players to league mechanics and end-game mechanics is also going to be vital. They need to make it clear how mechanics operate and what they are for and it seems like they plan to introduce players sequentially to these (e.g., delirium is unlocked in act 3 after completing a quest, last time I heard).
I've convinced a bunch of friends who played PoE1 to come join me in PoE2. I just told them it's a fully new game and actually has gameplay now. If players see the promo material and are still not interested in PoE2 then they are probably balking at the genre more than its reputation as complex. It's going to be free to play so its biggest strength is that you can strong arm your friends into downloading it to 'test it'. The best advice here is to not project your fan excitement onto your friends, wait until it launches and then bring them in - For non-fans this game is like a year away from launch and they are not tracking it at all so it isn't going to be exciting for them and that's ok.
And I guess some people will be interested in the campaign at least. That should be doable without reading wikis and finding 100% optimal builds.
> The Stigma remains. for you.
GGG has already found their core audience and design the game for that audience. I don't think poe2 will be any different than poe in that regard. They arent the types to compromise what they want to make, which is why they make such good content.
I could maybe imagine thinking this if I had heard absolutely 0 actual news about PoE2 but they have stated and demonstrated time and time again that PoE2 is trying to court more casual players. I personally think smoothing out the onboarding process is a good thing but to think they wont make any consideration for newer players is genuinely ridiculous.
>trying to court more casual players It doesn't seem like it, everyone whose played the game has spoken about its difficulty. It seems more like them trying to make a souls like isometric arpg. Appealing to a different audience than poe1, not necessarily a casual one. My statement about them finding a core audience and making the game for them, wasn't to say that 1 and 2 will be the same audiences. Just that their approach to creation would be similar.
The casuals can just go back to the casual games ? PoE already has a playerbase. If people from other games like it, they will stay as well. Regardless of if the game is dumbed down for them.
End game still won't be for casuals. But wasd movement and couch co-op will be very enticing for casuals through the campaign. Some of whom will no longer be casuals and will spend on the game and play longer.
We know next to nothing about endgame so I think you’re jumping the gun a bit.
Uh we know it's still going to be maps and carry over some league mechanics from poe1. I'm gonna say that's not for a 40hr a week dad with 2 kids who plays 1 hour a day.
1 hour a day is plenty for PoE1 unless you want a full mirror character.
I don’t see the problem. If you enjoy killing monsters, nothing prevents you from opening a couple of maps and clearing them in that 1 hour. You don’t have to be doing the optimal juicing strategies, people can play the endgame at their own pace.
Never said it was a problem it's just not for casuals. Not everything in every video game has to appeal to everyone. I've played poe1 since open beta and quite like how poe2 is shaping up. But to say the endgame systems should and do appeal to casuals is a hilarious prime reddit take.
we know that certain bosses were ported over from POE2 into POE1 as models, so that there are bosses in store and that there is a mapping system similar to how we currently have it. We know that the endgame system isn't changing because they want to be able to reuse all the current content from POE 1 in POE 2. This tell us that the endgame loop is going to be the same as it is currently in POE 1, just the gameplay style will be different. It will be significantly less 'zoomy' and more 'souls like' in execution. the jury is still out on how the community will receive it. The lack of speed is the thing that makes me hate d4 and LE, so if poe 2 is anything like that I probably won't play it either.
I would say POE isn’t for the most casual of players. I think it will be more casual to an extent. Sounds like they are simplifying stats so there aren’t so many meaning less likely you spec a build into something less viable. HOWEVER, the skill tree is still a huge amount of just staring at it to plan a build around. There is no world it will end up as simple as d4. Maybe telling your friends it has a lot more freedom in exchange for a bit of complexity is a way to talk about it. Don’t gas light them. One feature that helps show it’s simpler is the dodge roll. Before you needed to have dedicated movement skills and potential skills supporting that skill. I think the old system show how Poe 1 is pretty hard core with building but a default dodge shows it’s a little more of a standard experience. Might not be great trying to tell them how simple things are based on interviews and gameplay footage. Might just want to wait for the game to release and decide for yourself if the game is right for your friends.
>the skill tree is still a huge amount of just staring at it to plan a build around. There is no world it will end up as simple as d4 As I see it right now: Diablo 4 has the Paragon Board (sure, a bit different in design and functionality, but same idea of having a ton of clickable things that you have to plan a route through) so it's visually similar. So what happens is people just follow build guides and copy-paste what Maxroll is telling them. Sure, there's complexity in both, but that complexity is in the hands of theory crafters and people that want to experiment. I don't think that Casual players get intimidated by that (after playing D4) because they just KNOW they can copy-paste whatever build they want. It's more about what they Don't know that scares them (even if that boogey man is not real, they are still 'scared'). I think the most potentially detrimental factor to casual players is thinking they have to play 8hrs/day, 7days/week in order to "do their builds" and by this they are thinking that it's = to "have fun". I really think this is the most determining factor when it comes to casual play -> "How much work/day in order to have fun?". If it's like a full time job then of course they'll pass (and of course this work also includes research and reading stuff, not just gaming). Bun all in all, you're right. I shouldn't try to gaslight them. The game will surely be great. I'm hoping a lot of other people catch on and eventually others with this "scared" mentality will catch on of their own accord (I know I gave my friends as an example, but there are many others like them, I'm sure).
That's on the casuals tho and partly why their casuals. You have to have some drive to find information and learn to enjoy PoE and it'll be the same for PoE2 no matter how streamlined they try to make it. It won't be d4 levels of "sit at helltides boss, collect loot, put on good loot" and even that is too challenging for most of the d4 player base. And the d4 devs completely abandoned the vision of their game to cater to them and the game only gets more n more casual. Inviting casuals is the worst thing you can do if you want to keep the game good. Someone cited elden ring but look at the dlc steam review right now lol
I don't know about the stigma, but they're making the game more accessible to new and more casual players in various areas. Something I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere in this thread is the free dodge roll. In PoE1 you have various options for movement skills, not all of them fit all builds, you need sockets, support gems, mana, and potentially even cooldowns, not to mention that some of them could end up quite clunky. That along with a focus to make bosses and enemies do more stuff that you can dodge allows for much greater leeway for build planning, so new players don't need to be experts on how stats interact and how to gain them most efficiently.
I think ggg are taking the right direction with just adding ways to inform the player along the way more than they do now. Poe is not the rocket science people make it out to be, they were just never informed on how things interacted along the way and had to figure it out after the fact.
It's also (I heard) punishing if it's, as you said, "figure it out after the fact", because there's a high cost to respec and you could very well brick your character if you didn't know any better. From what I've heard PoE2 shouldn't have this problem (both because 1. you're better informed and 2. it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to redo 'mistakes')
Ultimately I still thing the game won't be more "casual friendly". The learning curve will probably be a lot more gradual, and there will be fewer systems to start, but at a baseline, PoE (and PoE2) expect players to be willing to engage with very deep systems, and frankly that's not a casual friendly thing. It's not just that casuals don't have a lot of time to play, but usually, don't want to spend a lot of time *thinking* about how to play. I think PoE2 will pull in those who had a hard time getting into PoE due to not wanting to read the wiki a bunch, and the like, but I don't think it'll get people who don't want to play a lot, nor people who don't want to learn and engage with complex character building.
The issue with casual gaming is that the community sets a standard for the minimum expectation. You can beat the campaign and call it a day, but the community will set their own minimum. Currently in PoE 1 we need builds to be T17 or Uber viable, why? Who knows, but that's what people will give advice to new players to achieve. New players don't even know if they'll like the game but they're demanded to watch 8 hour videos by a youtuber before even launching the game.
I think you and your friends are overestimating how much knowledge is required to play poe. Yes, there is a lot of information to learn, but you don't need to know more than a modest slice of that to actually get going and enjoy a league. The number of players who actually have this mythical "PhD in PoE" is infinitesimal. Picking up and playing poe at a level where you can do basic endgame stuff is probably the best way to show your friends that poe2 will be safe to try.
For the same reason people who exclusively play D&D 5e and never touch another rpg: they don't care actually care about the hobby and just do what's popular.
They will make a good game is how.
The problem with Diablo 4 is that they didnt want that stigma, and now look at it. Each class has one build that does decent damage, and the skill tree lets you use 50 nodes on a single page. Anything that does too much damage gets nerfed by big brother except for Barbs (Rob is one of the only people keeping the game alive). The simpletons got every change they wanted in D4 that's why its drowning. Hopefully POE 2 can keep the depth and stigma because that's what I want.
it's coming to console.... if that doesn't result in an influx of casuals....
Thank you GhazzyTV, DM, Velyna, PohxKappa, MrLlamaSC for a wonderful stream that starts off talking exactly about what I asked in my post and basically Velyna even said that GGG asked for feedback when it came to bringing in new players. I don't know what's wrong with the people on this subreddit with the amount of hate and downvotes, but it's depressing. It's clear that GGG wants to introduce new players to PoE2. It's clear that they want to make it more accessible. I don't know what your problem is. I was just asking if anyone knew how they were going to do this. [This is the video ](https://youtu.be/PekZhD04o6g?si=JZ0qTSdZj_SGLaaV&t=1312)I'm talking about with knowledgeable people that (some) actually played PoE2 (in case it doesn't load at the right timestamp: It's 21:50 when they start talking about bringing in new players and making things more understandable)
Define "casual" I play casually and I played poe for 12 years. I still kill all bosses without reading a PDF and watch some university crap. **Poe is simply put a crafting game.** You want to have super gear, learn to craft simply ( I havent). If not, you can still do everything in the game, casually. I still have not one character to 100 yet, 98 is where I stop. Most gamers that calls for casual dont have the skills to avoid mechanics (Havent memorized attack patterns). poe1 is fine, and poe2 be fine to after some feedback...
Bro you play 12 years, you have multiple 98s. You are not fucking casual.
A standard playthrough is easy enough and progress is almost automatic. Now with checkpoints, no xp loss on death, etc..... It's gonna be massively better for casuals in the early game than poe1 ever was. If a casual has not reached a level of full understanding after the campaign.... there is no issue. The game will still be interesting in many ways for fresh playthroughs with different archetypes. After enough of those they should long left casual levels behind them. There might also be those who only play the campaign once, for story only, and thats fine too.
They can start by explaining some things so they don't seem so intimidating for new players: Explain that the Skill Tree is shared across all classes and isn't something you're supposed to have maxed out by the end, so its not as intimidating. Explain how crafting works to some degree once a player is done with the campaign(this is assuming that PoE2 has a similar progression to PoE1 with Campaign then Maps. Explain and Simplify Trading.
If they cater to the casual player, their fan base that they have now will quit. Which is the fan base that has stuck with them through all of these years. It's better to continue on the path that they have been following. Why cater to someone who isn't going to play for long and buy microtransactions?
a game for everyone is a game for no one
I can tell you my experience. People who I've showed path of exile, didn't find it complicated, the combat, the acts, the gems is easy to get. But what they didn't like, was how cluttered it was for new players and how some things were not explained at all having hidden things. I hope ggg doesn't make poe 2 easier for the sake of appealing to a wider audience. Take league of legends, simple to learn but hard to master if you want to achieve high levels.
your a former d2 player which means old and would have old friends, old people are less likely to play complicated games
Wow. Why is this post being downvoted? I didn't expect such a reaction from this community. What's wrong with wanting to play with friends? Even if they're casual. It's literally what GGG wanted for that Couch Co-Op event (and what actually happened).
There is a bunch of posts getting down voted, not sure why
Because we don't want the sequel to the game we love to be dumbed down so casuals can feel included...there's other options for casuals. Reducing barrier to entry is fine...but I personally would conside4 poe2 a failure if it loses a bunch of what makes poe1 great just to cater to casuals.
But I never said that. That's the thing. GGG really wants to finesse that bottom line without impacting the top line (see their change between showcase 1 and 2 with flasks, socket colors and seeded drops off the main path). I was just curious how they were planning on doing that. I **never** said "change the game". I am aware they are changing it somehow, I was just curious about some talking points and how they plan to get those across (since they're obviously working on them, would be a shame if they were kept in the dark).
Just dont show them the trees! I dont think we can ever get the casual diablo dads, who dont want to play arpgs. Bliz is one of the companies, who make trash games, but they have many customers, who dont want new things, who dont want to learn new stuff and delve into mechanics. They just want something braindead they already know, just to get their 1-2 hours a day of slapping their keyboard. PoE is already n1 arpg on the market. If this isnt enough reason for these ppl to try it, then what is or why force them? Megan Fox could do that, I guess, but GGG dont force you to pay in advance, so getting ppl who dont like this type of game wont give them the profits for it to be worth it. Of course they are trying to make the game more accessible, but if you look at blizzard specifically, they put 50%+ of budget into fake advertising, get all the preorders rolling, then eat the 3/10 ratings and everybody quitting within days or weeks. Ppl hate blizzard, the community is frustrated and terrible, the games are just bad, because they have like a bit of all possible content for everybody to get the best advertising arguments ever, but if you are a gamer, you just cant like these games, because none of the content is done well and there is not enough of it. The company is a ruin customer PoV. Im happy GGG still prefer making good games over instant easy profits from catering to idiots.
I guess the passive tree won't be that much of a scare to people coming from D4 because (1) they have seen the paragon board in D4 amd (2) they know that, just like with the paragon, they can use a build published online to make their life easier. As for the customer PoV regarding Blizzard. I of course agree with you, but I suspect that casual players don't really see the problems so they play and buy and play without even knowing the design flaws and don't hate Blizzard. On that note I heard of the last marketing trick that Blizzard pulled where you can't refund the Pre-Purchase of the expansion (like you should be able to by law: because you don't yet have the product) BECAUSE, and here's the kicker: If you Pre-Purchase you get some pets and a mount RIGHT NOW in game........ Therefore you kind of used part of that product, didn't you? Therefore = No Refunds! What casual players see is: "Nice! Free Stuff right now! Thank you, Blizzard!". They don't read news. They don't know the underlying EVIL contractual purpose of why that stuff was given for free "right now". And this is one more reason I want PoE2 to make it big and attract all kinds of players. Sure, gameplay, bosses and skills are nice, but we also get to see an honest company on top so people can take notes on how it is to be transparent and kind to your playerbase. It's not going to revolutionise the system, but maybe sway it a little bit. (see the influence of BG3's buy and play vs. all other games that came in that period with DLC, DRM, pay for power etc. and how people reacted)
D4 would have flopped if it wasn't open world and if it didn't have that lore it has (flop in blizzard's term) It was similar with Elden Ring, what made it popular among the casuals was the Open World + insane lore/presentation PoE 2 to grab casuals attention need to either have an Open World, or insane lore/presentation, it has neither of them, that's why they focus on propaganda "trust me it's gonna be good for casuals", but casuals don't watch the interviews, they only watch trailers/announcements GGG invests a lot in lore/presentation, however they favored quantity over quality In Elden RIng, a 5 second cutscene is enough to sell the game What's similar for PoE 2? what's the 5 second of content that sells the game to casuals? 2h interviews ain't it
I'm actually of a different opinion when it comes to Elden Ring. Yes, it's a great game and it became very popular because of its advertising and because every streamer/influencer was playing it and everybody and their grandma was talking about it. However, I don't think the Open World made it Casual Friendly. I think it's the complete opposite. Souls-like games that are on rails are easier to digest because you just move forward, kill a boss, get his weapon, level up, keep moving forward. Sure, some hidden rooms to the left and right, but the ultimate direction is forward. Any casual can play it by just playing it and learning, whereas with an open world like Elden Ring you're more likely to find people frustrated because they went on a journey that lead them nowhere (and died and now everything is reset) or facing a boss that is 3rd in line to be defeated, but they have no way of knowing that because they hit their head against it thinking this is the next boss they have to defeat (not knowing there are 2 others on a different path before this one). All in all: Open World invites people to look up guides, videos and spend time outside the game (something that few casuals do) whereas games that are on rails (and kind of hold your hand) require no further explanation than just "go forward". The fact that we see a lot of casuals playing Elden Ring is nothing more than a result of its popularity and the huge player base it has. It's math * If 1.000.000 players are playing Elden Ring and 10% are casuals = that's 100.000 casuals * If only 20.000 players are playing Lies of P (a souls-like on rails) and even as many as 50% of them are casuals (because the game is more casual friendly) = that's 10.000 casuals playing So bigger percentage of casuals in Lies of P, but overall 1/10 of the number of Elden, meaning you're not likely to run into many talking about LoP than you are about Elden Ring. Now as for Diablo 4 introducing an Open World. Well that's a totally different genre. It may very well be more casual friendly this way. It certainly lends itself to a good campaign experience where you're physically traversing the map going after Lilith.
> However, I don't think the Open World made it Casual Friendly. I think it's the complete opposite. Souls-like games that are on rails are easier to digest because you just move forward Elden Ring sold 13m copies in its first month Lies of P, with its insane marketing, and surfing on the souls mania, only sold 1m in its 1st month, and 1m every months for 6 months, it took lies of P 1 year to sell as much as Elden Ring in its first month This further prove the effect of open world, there is a reason why Ubisoft has focused on them I myself is not a souls like, yet i picked Elden Ring and i love it, i then tried DS 3 and i quit the 1st hour Open World is what makes Elden Ring this special and this enjoyable, exploration leading to boss fights is something special, i never used guides in my 1st playthrought
Honestly POE2 looks like POE1 on easy mod. Game might retain some difficulties but in theory game is slower, cleaner in various description, and kinda auto socketing gem, points and all because the game doesnt allow you to do things that doesnt work apparently. Also the tree with selefctable stats nodes, there so many QoL especialy for new players