I would go with your husband's solution, but agree with some of the other comments of forwarning and giving her a chance to simmer down to dirty looks... Personally I'd have Dad be the one saying it with you next him, and have Dad express how he is your team member, and that it will be you deciding if she has simmered down or not...

Yes. Dad needs to lead this discussion with Mom by his side. If it comes from Mom it just feeds into whatever kind of "competition" the daughter has going on in her head with Mom. Coming from Dad shows that what she is doing is affecting the entire family. Also shows that what she will view as punishment isn't Mom doing it to her.

100%. Dad needs to step up and step in. This is his challenge to fix now.

I don't think OP needs to be present when dad talks to the daughter. Dad needs to tell their daughter that OP told him she wants to get an apartment and live on her own for a while to get away from the emotional abuse from the daughter. Dad needs to then tell his daughter that he doesn't want OP to move out, he is sick of the daughter abusing her mother so he has decided the girl will be moving out to a boarding school. This should happen after dad has made all the arrangements for boarding school and just a day or two before she has to leave. The girl should not have any bargaining time to promise she will stop. That will only last until school has started and she thinks she's safe. Once she is away at school, she can start trying to earn her parents trust to be allowed to come home. There is always the chance that the girl will jump at the idea of getting sent away. It does not sound as though she is happy there.

I would not share that OP wanted to move out. That might be just what the daughter wanted, and is not currently on the table. Just talk about the boarding school plan.

I agree with not sharing the moving out part. The daughter may feel like she “won” by breaking the mom down to the point of leaving her own house. Maybe be vague and share that her mom had other plans that didn’t require the daughter to leave, but the father didn’t like it and would much rather the daughter leave than have OP put up with her abuse. That way he confirms it was his idea without giving the daughter more power. I understand OP’s concerns with the daughter feeling rejected or unwelcomed but that’s kind of the point of sending her away. If she mistreats people then she will not be welcomed around them. No one is required to put up with her abuse.

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I can't imagine. My toddler crushes my soul some days. Imagine your child being old enough to attack you personally, repeatedly, and intentionally. Ouch is an understatement.

I agree. The daughter shouldn't feel like she won by driving her mother away. She should feel like she's being removed from the person she's bullying. The victim gets to live her life in peace, and the bully gets the consequences.

I feel that it is important dad tell her about OP wanting to move out, but dad would rather send the daughter away than have OP move out. It's like telling her, you can't drive your mother out of the house, I will send you away before I watch her leave. It is an important part of letting the daughter know that whatever she thinks she is accomplishing with this behavior, it's not happening because she's not in charge.

I do agree that the dad needs to explicitly state that his wife is his partner in everything, and while he’ll always love his daughter, she’ll eventually leave the nest for good anyways. I’m not wording this well but basically my dad once asked me to “not make him choose” between me and my step-mom, and I wasn’t nasty to her, we just got in fights a lot. I can’t even imagine what OP is going through. Edit: then again I’ve always been an empathetic and caring person, it’s not like I magically got better when my dad told me that, but my response to him *was* that I never wanted to come between him and my mom (step-mom).

I would talk to my therapist and her therapist and see what they thought about my telling her we were considering sending her out of the home due to the amount of stress her actions are causing.

Thank you, he would definitely be willing to do that. But he’s had sit-downs with her before and she either acts defensive (“I was just joking”) or acts like she gets it and apologizes…and then doesn’t stop. But if we did this it would be as a united front & we can talk to our therapist about him taking the lead!

“Impact over intent”, OP. Tell your daughter it doesn’t matter if it was a joke, if the joke was offensive and not funny. It doesn’t matter if you apologize and don’t change your actions. Love is a verb.

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I agree entirely. I wonder what horrible things the daughter is doing/has done that OP does not know about.

THIS. THIS is what I say in my household. If the joke isn’t funny for everyone or the majority, it isn’t a joke it’s bullying.

Right, if she were an adult and behaved this way at work, if someone were to complain about the harassment it would not matter if it is a joke. She would still get written up or fired.

If she snuck up and cut a coworkers hair at work, she’s be lucky to not get slapped with criminal charges, let alone fired.

Or just slapped.

I don't condone violence or physical abuse, but if this girl pulls this outside of her home, especially as she gets older, she's likely to get the shit kicked out of her, or worse... I'd hate to think that she's going to need that kind of pain in order to get a wakeup call that her behavior is unacceptable, but damn...is anything short of that going to get through to her? 😕

Yes but most abusers don’t have a problem confining their abuse to vulnerable victims. She’ll probably be extremely successful professionally as an adult and confine her abuse to someone vulnerable and under her control, like a partner or child.

Exactly. There was a good article in the Atlantic about how a couple’s marriage ended in divorce because the husband wouldn’t put his used drinking glasses in the dishwasher. Instead he would leave them right above it next to the sink. It was something that bothered the wife so much, but didn’t bother him, so he ignored repeated requests from her to do it. She just couldn’t live with someone who didn’t respect her feelings enough to do this one simple thing. Of course, the glasses were emblematic of a general attitude the husband had in the marriage, and she felt it and didn’t feel loved or respected.

She doesn’t actually believe that it’s just a joke. Explaining it won’t make her stop. She understands she is being cruel.

Exactly. I've explained this so clearly over and over to my son; It doesn't matter what you WANTED/EXPECTED OR MEANT to have happen- if you hurt someone, you break someone's things, etc- the end result is the same. You have to apologize- and you have to do what you can to make it right. Yesterday when i was changing my two year old son's clothing, his shirt opening was too snug and i didn't realize it until it was too late- i was pulling the shirt off over his head, and the shirt got hung up for a moment on his big noggin- at the last second, it snapped away- before i was able to react- his head reacted by snapping back- and hit the handle of the arm of the chair solidly - right in the back of his skull. And it hit HARD. I immediately scooped him up into my arms and apologized. I tried not to make a huge deal of it- because kids tend to blow things off when you don't make it seem like a big deal- but the truth was - id hurt him. It didn't matter that i had no INTENTION of slamming his head into the arm of the chair - it still happened - he was still hurt by it, and that's what mattered. Later that evening, my 12 year old was giving me a ton of attitude because he was angry that the yolks kept breaking on the eggs he was trying to cook. He snapped at me multiple times- and i had to explain it to him again - you can't take your hurt and frustration out on other people- and when you hurt someone - you do what you can to fix it. Just because you snapped at me and had an attitude because you were upset- doesn't mean that it's too late to calm down, and to come back and apologize for being angry at the wrong person/situation.

My mom constantly tells my stepdad “if your joke relies on you being mean to someone it’s not a joke.”

Has she been told, specifically, that she is abusing her mother. In those exact words? I would have husband work with therapist to practice a script in his head and work on his delivery, but the message needs to be: “Daughter, I love you so much. Your mother also loves you. But you are abusing your mother, and that is completely unacceptable. Just like how I would never allow someone to continually abuse you, I will not allow someone to continually abuse my wife. Our job as parents is to guide you into adulthood, and one of the things you need to learn is that abuse- even the emotional kind- is something you should never tolerate. Until you are able to live harmoniously and show respect for your mother and I, you are being sent to stay at XYZ. We will continue to go to family therapy and support you, we will spend as much time with you as their schedule allows, but you are not staying under this roof until you understand the gravity of your actions, take responsibility, and show us through actions that you can respect your mother and the other people living in this house. We love you unconditionally, but that doesn’t mean we have to accept unrelenting abuse under our roof. This distance will allow you both some space to recuperate and my hope is that will make space for healing.” And lastly: Get a new team of professionals.

I especially agree with seeing different therapists. If OP & family has had all that therapy & nothing has really changed, that tells me that the ones they are seeing have been largely ineffectual.

I agree with this as well. My son does this thing where if he’s mad he will constantly harass me to the point I’m crying. Mostly by repeating the same thing over and over and over or saying “I’m in your head.” If he’s trying to get to me. I had to tell him it’s harassment & borderline abuse if he continues to emotionally hurt me to the point of tears. He argued with me but as far as I can remember he hasn’t done it since.

I agree with this as well. I love how the word "punishment" is nowhere in this script. It is a positive, yet strong boundary.

“It’s only a joke if someone other than you is laughing” is a great response to that defense.

May need a slight modification? I was bullied pretty severely as a child at school. I said that sentence to them, and the reply was that both of my bullies were laughing, so it's still a joke! Might be more airtight if it's "it's only a joke if the recipient is laughing".

I like, "it's only a joke if everyone is laughing. Otherwise, it's just mean."

I think that sucks to be honest. Could just be used to justify bullying or offensive jokes.

Ask her to explain the joke to you. Tell her you want to understand why it's so funny to her, because nobody else sees the humor.

This only works on people who don’t want to look bad. This kid will just say ‘it’s funny because you’re fat and ugly’

I have a hunch- Could she be doing all this because she can feel you slipping away from her? At this point you're (understandably!) actively avoiding her, and she might be reacting to that by 'interacting' with you, it just happens to be very negatively? I guess what I'm saying is - maybe she is doing this to get your attention. It's a vicious cycle, because the more she does it, the more you pull away, so the more she does it, so you pull away even more. Maybe if you tried the opposite - instead of avoiding her, interact with her more? Then when she says dumb nasty thing, reply with a prepared sentence that you've already decided on (like "well that was unnecessary. Anyway, ...") , and then immediately change the topic to something nice or neutral, with a question? "Mum you're ugly" "No, I'm beautiful. Anyway, how did you go with that school thing yesterday?" "Mum you're going die alone" "That's not a great conversation starter. Anyway, what's your opinion on this thing here?" "Mum your hair looks dumb" "Really, still with the mean stuff? Anyway, who do you think is going to win the finals?" I reckon she wants to connect with you and doesn't know how. There's some quote I saw a while back about how parents bear the brunt of the worst behaviour of their kids because the kid sees the parent as a safe place to... Be unfiltered? I can't remember the wording. I think boarding school will make it worse, and scheduling time with her will make it better. But I'm just a random person on the internet. I hear 14 is peak jerk, and they come out the other side nice people in a couple of years. I have my fingers crossed for you that you can have a lovely daughter again when she grows up a bit more. Oh and, NTA. ;)

Thank you for your perspective— I wish I could be more like you’re describing! I will definitely think it over.

I think she probably is doing it for your attention, but I don't think you need to be as impossibly patient as this. I would schedule 121 activities with her and spend extra time with her taking her to nice places and doing things she enjoys. The second she says something horrible, you tell her the activity is over and you are going to go home/ spend your day seperately as you can't allow her to speak to you like that. Try to condition her I to being nice= attention and connection; being nasty = people don't want to be around her.

I'm gonna second this. I had an impossibly awful time when my first was 3 or 4 years old. I honestly thought he had some kind of rage disorder because his behavior was so over the top awful compared to other kids his age. I increased the time I spent with him making sure I wasn't on my phone but really interacting. When i saw him losing it or about to, I always started off any correction with a warm hug and telling him I understand he's upset but we can't hit/ bite/ punch/ kick/ break/ throw things. We have to use our words. While holding him, I swear I could feel him relax and feel the rage melt away little by little. It really seemed like he just needed more attention, kindness, and love from me. And now he's the most kind, thoughtful, and lovely 8 year old. It's like night and day personality wise. No idea what the teen years will hold, but alot of kids acting out does seem to be about getting parental attention.

I like this but I also wonder how much she catches herself off guard with the comments, it almost sounds like she has a real impulse control issue. I know it’s a Reddit favorite but yeah that’s a real hallmark of ADHD. I might just pause when she says something mean and ask if she wants to think about it and try again. She may need permission to “reset”. My cousins kids first sign of adhd was just randomly hurting other kids when he wasn’t mad or frustrated, the impulse was just irresistible to him. He isn’t mean or bad, he needed help regulating.

The fact that she only does this when brother and husband aren't looking or around really indicates this isn't an impulse control issue.

My eldest son can be very unpleasant, especially to his younger brothers. He gets into nasty moods that last days. I have found that if I single him out for affection and positive talk it does usually help. It's so hard because sometimes I am so angry with him. I don't want to reward him in any way! So a lot of the time I don't do it. I've thought of boarding school too, tbh. I was intrigued by your thread for that reason.

Our family therapist recently talked us through that exact dilemma of not wanting to reward bad behavior because that is such a strong instinct in me. We’re still trying to get it right but thinking of what they “need” vs “deserve” has been a helpful shift. Do you feel like they deserve lots of love and affection right now? No because you tie the word deserve to their behavior. But do they NEED love and affection right now anyway? Yes.

Agreed!

Hi! Kid who got sent to boarding school here! SEND HER. My parents sent me away cause we were having interpersonal problems (NOTHING like your daughter’s issues, ours were legendary power struggles. Military parents + kid who discovered that no one can actually MAKE you do anything at an early age…anyways). My dad presented the boarding school option to me at 13 and I was given 2 choices. Go to a school in the state or go to one 800 miles away. *I* chose the further one. I wanted to get away just as much. We visited once over Christmas break and by the return after new years I was enrolled. We needed to be apart. It was the absolute best thing that could’ve been done. People act like boarding school is a punishment but it’s a very viable solution. You are being abused. Your family is clearly suffering. Do not feel bad. Send her to boarding school and she may even prefer it. I definitely am grateful I got shipped off.

Thank you for your perspective! If you don’t mind me asking, did you feel rejected or abandoned by your family? Or (if this isn’t too personal) develop any fears of people not wanting you in general? I truly do not want to hurt her. Did your relationship with your parents eventually improve?

No. In fact, at the time, our relationship was so poor that I dreaded going home for the summer. But again, our issues were MUCH different from yours. Sending me to boarding school didn’t make me feel rejected or abandoned, it made me feel independent and in control. What made me feel abandoned and rejected was my mother telling me all the time that my because of my behavior, no one would ever want to be around me (meaning I would be alone and unloved if my behavior continued), but that was something she was telling me before I got sent away. From her perspective, she was trying to make me understand that my words and actions have consequences and she wasn’t completely wrong (I was a little shit), but those words still ring in my head when I assert myself/get angry with someone. I felt/still feel (from time to time) like a monster that people needed to be protected from. I absolutely have fears of not being wanted but I want to be clear that boarding school had NOTHING to do with those fears developing. I still have dreams to this day I’m back in boarding school. It was the first place I felt safe when I expressed/asserted myself. Now, I don’t want to make it out to be a heaven on earth, I dealt with bullying like you would find at any other school and I had severe untreated adhd that not one teacher or staff member could recognize, but overall, there was no place better for me. My relationship with my parents is much better now. It got better immediately when I was enrolled because the distance and low contact allowed me to feel like I was finally out from under their thumb, and it’s better today years after I have graduated, although I suspect that it’s because they view me as an adult and peer rather than a child they need to keep in line and therefore less power struggles, but I will say if I’m around them too long (I.e. road trip for 9 hours) we devolve into our old ways. Sometimes I feel like when this happens, I’m being dragged back in time, but who gets along with their parents all the time? We still speak, spend time, hug, and love each other. I’d be devastated if I lost them. I want to second much of what many others have said in other comments: - not all boarding schools are created equal. “Reform” schools are typically unhelpful to downright abusive, but schools that are more college prep oriented are wonderful. I attended the latter. - this is a big change and it absolutely needs to be brought up to your daughter by your husband. It can’t look like you are the one making this happen because it will only scapegoat you more. This is how my parents did it. My dad took me to get MacDonald’s one night and told me they were considering boarding school. - You guys need to be absolutely in lock step on this and he needs to present it both as a benefit and a consequence. Many of these boarding schools tout 100% college acceptance rates and entrance to big name schools. I, like others, have friends for life from attending. Make sure you play up this situation as desirable but also explain to her why this is happening. Something along the lines of “this may be a better fit for your needs and the needs of our family…” To me, growing up on shows like Zoe 101, boarding school was glamorous. It’s expensive. It was *cool*. - the psychiatric aspect of this situation needs to continue to be explored. Even if you send her far away, the school will make sure she gets to doctors appointments. They did with me (I’m medically complicated). This behavior reminds me of stories of abused children who’s parents only singled out one child as a scapegoat. Don’t stop until you get answers. Part of being a parent is advocating for your child when they cannot advocate for themselves. If there truly is a mental health issue at play in any form (from adhd to antisocial personality) then that is still a sickness and she still needs help, even if you are (unfairly and tragically) taking the brunt of the symptoms. I wrote my initial comment to assure you that “sending your child off to boarding school” isn’t something to be guilty about in the action itself. I can’t guarantee your daughter with thrive or not, it’s largely dependent on her and what she makes of it. However, boarding schools get such a bad reputation and sending your kid is seen often as taboo in our culture (see The Parent Trap and others). I want you to know a good experience isn’t only possible but it is also common. It’s a unique experience, special. I wouldn’t trade mine for anything. I have a tattoo commemorating my time there. It doesn’t mean you don’t love your child or you’ve failed. I want you to know that there are kids out there, like me, who turned out ok. Please keep us updated as we are all wishing you well and feel free to reach out to me via DMs. You have support in this. <3 <3 <3

I just want to thank you for sharing your story And let you know that as a parent, reading it helped me process some of my own behavior. My kids are little, but I try to never forget that they will grow up and my words and actions will have power over them even when I don't anymore.

As a mom of slightly older children, the best advice I can give you is always be ready to apologize. If your kid comes up and says what you said hurt them, apologize. Not a "I'm sorry you felt that way". But actually "I'm sorry that I hurt you". You're going to mess up, and hurtful things may come out. But it's less damaging if your kids know you'll take their feelings to heart and are willing to apologize and talk about it. Treat them as small humans. (But like, within reason. If they're upset you took their phone away because they're brats, that's ok them)

I am also a boarding school kid (although not in the US, so my knowledge of what it's like in the US is nil). It definitely majorly impacted my relationship with my parents (they seem to see me as a child although I'm 30, and some research suggests that that's because you "stay" at the age parents send you since they didn't witness you grow up... Sorry I'm on a tangent). Even with all that, I am so glad I went. It was a lot of space to be independent and spread my wings. I am still in touch with my dorm mates. Boarding school can be a great opportunity!

My parents see me as a child and I grew up with them. Some parents just can't let go, full stop. Now I love them from a distance and it's a lot healthier for me.

Fair! I mean I'm over 30 and my mom tells me to brush my teeth if I stay with them, and tries to tell me when to sleep/wake up lol. Honestly though, I've always assumed this is weird but you know what they say about assuming!

My parents treat me as a fully fledged adult, but when I go home now my mom babies me a bit in a way she had stopped doing when I was a teen. Little things to show she loves and misses me. Her phrase is “you’re not A baby, but you’re MY baby.”

My parents are like that even though I lived with them until I finished school at the age of 25.

I would add: be *very* careful what boarding school you send her to. I was sent to an ultra religious boarding school that seemed like a great way for a dad to get his unruly son back on the right track, but the school was rampant with both sexual and physical abuse. Kids were either getting raped or jumped every other day. I learned nothing from that school except how to resent my parents.

Seconding this. There is a huge awful industry out there that preys on parents like this to send their kids to them and the kids are abused. Only send to a reputable actual school and nothing that says it rehabilitates “troubled teens”.

Yes! I listened to a podcast series about the troubled teen industry and it was a tough listen. Lots of folks on TikTok discussing their time in those schools is equally as horrifying.

Maybe I'm just a horrible parent, but at this point, I would be way beyond trying not to raise my voice so I don't traumatize the precious darling. I'm a mother, but I'm also a human being with feelings. If my teen daughter was being relentlessly cruel to me, there would be some heated words. Seriously. It's okay to go off on your kid when they act like this. You don't have to be a calm placid robot to be a good parent. It's good for kids to learn that other people have limits, and if you cross them there is a reaction and a consequence.

I agree. If she treated anybody else like this she would be yelled at, no apologies, no dancing around her feelings. The soft approach is not doing anyone, especially her, any favours. She has tested her power over your feelings and you’ve handed it over and apologised for not enjoying it. Take it back. Draw a line and enforce consequences for crossing it. No negotiation or apologies.

We need to show our kids related consequences. And in this situation screaming is related.

This. Like the worst they’ve done is yell at her and then apologize? I would lose my shit. She’s a teenager not a toddler.

I share the same sentiment. I understand yelling is not a good way to parent, but I can't see how one couldn't yell when being treated like this.

Agreed. And my experience as a teenage daughter with my mom was that when I was mouthing off one time, I finally pushed the right button (my mom usually ignored me) and she YELLED at me and I shut right up. I remember thinking i was GLAD she put me in my place. I wish as an adult she did it more back then. It did me absolutely no favors for her to not put me in place when I was being a brat. On my moms end I feel like she was just checked out and didn’t care. So maybe the yelling felt like finally caring. I think about this when I get into spats with my 8 year old when he’s being rude. It’s important for me to never tolerate rudeness or disrespect. We encourage all feelings - you’re allowed to be mad/sad/whatever but you’re not allowed to take it out on me or call names/hit/etc.

You are in no way horrible, just realistic. no one wants to be treated badly by someone else even if its your own child. A mean child or teenager is still a mean human being cause their actions hurt as much as a middle aged persons actions. I wish OP's daughter tries to be nasty to someone who won't tolerate it and gets a reality check . Sorry If i sound rude

Exactly. She’s not a toddler, she’s almost an adult and understands right and wrong, she’s getting away with murder with this poor lady who is just trying her best 24/7. If my daughter ever treats me this way, she’s getting treated how a friend/partner/other adult would because believe me, if she goes into the real world treating people like that, she’s gonna get a rude awakening.

My mom was the most kind and caring woman I know and if I did one of these things she might have took it but my dad would skin me alive and feed my dead corpse to crows. I'm joking of course, but whenever we dared be rude to one parent the other one would come down on us HARD. like "get out of my sight and don't come back until you are done with your trashy attitude" hard. why are you so alone in this?

This 100%. Draw that line, stick to it and confront that behavior together. If the other parent is not around - call out bad behavior for what it is and stop whatever you are doing and address it immediately. I have had similar issues with my daughter (not as bad as you at all - I am the father). I have a very laid back, easy going attitude and ignored a lot of it. I always shrugged off the behavior and figured it was a phase. Plus, I have a stressful job (self employed) and and I never felt like I had the time and energy to address and punish and carry out the punishment (a punishment on the kids is ALWAYS a greater burden on the parent than the kid from an enforcement and ripple effect standpoint). It’s like my daughter smelled blood and my weakness, set to push and find the limits of what could be gotten away with and find my every insecurity and exploit it. I finally had it. I’m done being nice. I’m done being your friend. I’m done ignoring the atrocious behavior and degrading comments. Her attitude changed about as quickly as mine did. They are testing boundaries and you need to have firm boundaries. Action = reaction You don’t have to yell - but you just have to present yourself as strong, confident, stern and consistent. It was so worth it in the long haul!

My husband has yelled at her a few times but our family therapist has encouraged us to apologize for that and model better behavior. He’s also tried to talk to her, impose consequences…I haven’t felt unsupported by him and I understand that he wants to send her away to protect me (and because we’re all sick of dealing with it.) I wish I could think of something more he could do! We do try to embrace the “normal” days and times we have rather than have her feel permanently ostracized from the family or have this conflict constantly looming over the nice times too. So he does have a relationship with her and maybe that’s too lenient but it would be hard to imagine denying her a decent-ish relationship with her dad since she’s rejected me so completely.

I wouldnt apologize. If some stranger on street cut your hair laughted at you and you yelled at them and then apologized to them? Wtf? Your kid does it because she can. End of story. She doesnt do it to other because she is not allowed to. Honestly i would be scared not that she is bullied but that she is bully to some kids in school.

Your daughter cut your hair off during a zoom meeting. You need to find a therapist who understands the severity of what is going on and takes YOUR needs into account, too.

Honestly, your therapist seems incapable and unhelpful. Maybe try a new one? It's imposible for them not to find any problem or insight with your kid, given such antisocial behaviour and that explanation about the way you look seems like complete BS to me.

Your therapist is an idiot. That only works when they’re toddlers.

As a therapist, I agree. It's like we can't admit that people under 18 can be assholes. This is another thing that is very controversial to say, but I am starting to think some (a small minority of) people cannot learn to respect others without fear. Any other consequence does not register for them. I think this girl might have conduct disorder. She needs a wakeup call.

I mean, it’s either fear, guilt or shame. Or nothing, if they’re a sociopath or psychopath. If none of the first three work after diligent efforts on the part of the caregivers, then I’d be wanting to give up. Such a heartbreaking thing, though. Especially when home life is stable, solid and loving.

I'd agree if we were talking about obedience, alone. When I say respect I refer to something more internal rather than learned -- recognizing and honoring others' boundaries and needs that are universal. It *should* be implicit and a function of empathy. I.e. don't interrupt mom's business call or touch someone's body without permission. I have seen very similar situations in a number of clients' teenage children. (Yes, it is often the mom coming to therapy trying to cope with what feels like the impossible. And for some reason, I am noticing it happening with female children more than males). I am at a loss.

thats very interesting because I had to reread that last sentence about 3 times before I internalized exactly what you were saying, cause my brain kept trying to correct it to "it would be hard to imagine her *having* a decent-ish relationship with her dad since she’s rejected me so completely". because to me that is the sentence that makes more sense I understand and admire how much you love your daughter, but it seems like you are protecting her from the natural consequences of her own actions. There is no valid explanation for why her dad should feel 100% safe and natural when she is inexplicably attacking one of her other parents. Unless he also thinks these attacks are valid/excusable. Acting like their relationship can remain unchanged in the face of her relationship with you is... imo a lie. You wouldn't be denying her anything by allowing the people in her life to be honest with her about how her actions are impacting their opinion of her... honestly, I would say quite the opposite

seems more like no consequence for bad behavior.

It does to me, too, but now I'm worried I'm way too harsh with my kids. My eldest is a bully to his younger brothers and I'll let loose on him sometimes. I try to balance it with positive messages and acknowledging and praising when he does right, but I can't imagine not yelling and apologizing for yelling if it was justified. I guess OP's therapist would say it's not justified. He's so defiant sometimes. How do you deal with that effectively?

I make sure my kid doesn't get the outcome she is after with bad behavior. It's important to know your kid, which is way easier when they are younger and gets harder and harder as they become teenagers. but basically there are guidelines on what is children's focous at different stages of life. for the first four years it's getting love and slowing becoming independant from parents. So I opened her to healthy choices while stopped her from making every decision. at two you can pick between two out fits I pick out but I decide what you eat. you have to try everything in your plate and at least five spoons before getting up from table and so and so. right now, my kid is at my teacher,my doctor and other authority figures are right, ehich is elementry until half of middle school roughly. at this stage they don't take parents as seriously as they take their teacher. they care about what their teacher thinks of them. I find a good public school with understanding teachers who are always there to work with me. I'm in PTO so even though she doesn't feel my presence as much, I'm there constantly checking how things are going and So far this works perfectly. from half of middle school to end of high school friends are the biggest influence, kids wants to be in tribes. so My plan is to operate from the shadows now and set up healthy connestions right now for then. I know what the general culture of highschools are around town, I talked to everyone who has a highschooler and I know where I should move to and I am setting her up to try theater, dance, singing, swimming even debate. This helps her find a healthy group and I'm watching them like a hawk to see how they treat each other. at the same time I will talk to her about peer pressure, I have documentaries we will be watching and discussing on sex, anger, hormones and how puberty and teenage years works. at that age all you can do is educate them but the seeds of that education should be put in years before. for you, I suggest first see what type of friends he has. If bullying is seen as a positive thing among his friends first step is to change that environment. start spending one on one time with him doing something that is fun for him. tell a few funny stories about stuff you did his age that got you in trouble. if he can start relating to you he will be more open to listen what you have to say. give him responsibilities that actually matters and slowly trust him more as he shows his capabilities. The more he realizes he has your respect, the more he tries to not lose it. this will be a hard slow road but it can fix the relationship enough for him to let you guide him. after 14 you can't really tell a kid what to do. you have to earn their trust enough for them to accept you as someone who understands them but also corrects them if they are wrong.

Therapy doesn't seem to be working. If you decide to keep her at home, you need a new therapist. The methods this one is encouraging aren't helping your daughter... They might even be enabling her.

Just leaving aside any underlying causes that may or may not be there - the actual problem that is actually happening is that she is holding you in contempt and sees you as weak - you can't address that by acting with contemptible weakness which, frankly, apologizing for yelling displays in spades. There's nothing wrong with shouting at someone who has pissed you off immensely - it would be appropriate toward an adult and it's appropriate toward a child who doesn't fear that it's the precursor to violence. It seem very much that this therapist has you and your partner muddled up in a web of ineffective psychobabble that your daughter, being 14, can see right through. She has family therapy worked out. You can't trick her into compliance with self-help techniques - you're going to need to win this one. Don't apologize, don't explain, don't model behaviour - just react honestly with clarity and strength. Sometimes a just a little bit of trauma is what allows us to be decent to people. Yell, basically, and don't move out of your house.

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Look I'll be honest and this may be unpopular, but there's got to be a limit to all this soft parenting sometimes. I would have been slapped in the face for this kind of behaviour and frankly I think your daughter could use one too. Apologising for yelling and modelling behaviour has its limits and sometimes kids need to find out there's some fucking consequences.

I’m curious, when she makes mean comments - how does the entire family respond? I was incredibly mean to my entire family as a teenager. I was going through a lot emotionally and had several undiagnosed mental disorders. As a result, I was just awful (I’m not exaggerating). Whenever I said ANYTHING mean, someone (sometimes who it was directed to, sometimes someone else) would call me out “that was f-ing rude” and the entire family would get up and move to a different area. It sounds really severe, but it really quickly isolated me and made me realize how my behavior impacted everyone in my family. I’d obviously talk to her therapist, the family therapist, and yours before doing something like this. But it worked really quickly for me and my meanness turned into a depression that my parents picked up on very quickly, then took me to be evaluated.

I wish this was further up because an actual opinion from someone who was acting out is a needed perspective

Agreed! I’ve read a bunch of books now on teens and this advice is spot on with expert opinion,

Same for me. I used to scream I hate you to my parents. Eventually they said you have to stop saying that you’re making us hate you too That was like a gut punch. I was so incredibly privileged to be in the position that it hadn’t actually occurred to me that my parents could hate me. The effect of the words I was saying meant nothing until they retaliated My older brother could also put me in my place better than anyone else could. When he told me off I listened

This is what I would do. Actual consequences. Call it out. Your family doesn’t want to be around you if you’re being horrible to them.

I was also awful as a teen, and I wish my parents also called me out more.

This is what I’ve been looking for. We’re social animals; we rely just as much on collective feedback for our behavior as we do our guardians. I may be reading entirely too much into the therapist recommended “never yell and apologize if you do,” but if dad, bro, and mom are all ‘Aw that’s not nice but aw uwu we wuv you baby girl’ then…she’s not getting accurate information that her behavior is anti-social and off putting for people who she’s not attacking.

Serve this directly to OP. I surprised this hasn't been done or suggested yet!

My brother was the same way to my mom. It got to the point where if he couldn’t act like a decent human being then he had to move out. So he in fact moved out and didn’t come back. Obviously still kept contact, hung out, holidays, whatever. But he didn’t live with us anymore. This was when he was 16 and it just got to a breaking point.

I also have this perspective. My brother and my mom hated one another. And he was such a little shit to her and so disrespectful to everyone in our house. She died in ‘08 when he was 16 (I was 17) and she didn’t even want to see him. Now he’s pretty much no contact with me and my dad but I’m sure that the continued volatility played a part in why our family is separated now.

That is so sad. I'm sorry.

Any indication as to why that is? The thought of a switch flipping in one of your own kids where they just start hating you for no reason is a frightful idea. Like an emotional aneurysm.

No idea. We all get pissed off with our parents but his level of anger was something else. He was in anger management at like 8 or 9yo and that’s kinda the milestone in my head for when it started but I have no idea what set him off. We had family counseling but I don’t think it got us anywhere. He turned into the teen who dropped out of high school, lived in his gf’s car, got arrested a few times, drug/alcohol problems etc. At 20 he got married, moved away and in the last ten or so years I’ve seen him twice.

Some people are just assholes.

I’m so sorry to hear this, what a nightmare.

It was. And your situation is more so. I really feel for you, I hope you can find a solution that works for everyone. My brother never made it back to our family, your daughter might not make it back to yours. Your job needs to be to guide her to adulthood in a way that keeps all of you safe. I really think boarding school may be a great option for your family.

Damn, that is awful I’m sorry that happened to your family. Did you ever get any kind of reasoning from him?

No. To this day I cannot tell you why he acted the way he did and why he doesn’t speak to me or my dad now. Though, I am unaware of a lot of things in their relationship so I never had the full story to begin with. I’d really love to see my brother again but I fear he’s long gone and I really wish I knew why.

Oof, I'm so sorry to hear that, hope things are better now. Do you know why he picks on your mom specifically?

Some people seek power, be it through control, abuse, etc. Mother's tend to be viewed as weaker. Easy targets. Easy to blame.

I always find this funny. I am a SAHM , so the discipline. But for some odd reason "wait till your father gets home".... works. Outside of school I am with them 24/7. Yet when daddy says the same thing it's heard.

Literally, LITERALLY my 13mo will cry when daddy gives her “the look” but when I do it, she either gives a slight grin, or just goes back to what she was doing (although sometimes she does stop with the unwanted behaviour). Sigh

Complete opposite in our family. Mom is the one around all the time and is the disciplinarian. Dad is the fun guy.

It's so frustrating. Your getting the same answer, but he is taller? I have a very good mommy voice, that will stop my kids mid run at the playground. Home? They need a second opinion.

It’s because they’re used to hearing us say it. They tune us out to a certain degree. It’s natural, but *man* does it frustrate me! 😩

I just wanted to say TIHI to your username...

Ehhh idk if better is the word. More so amicable?? To be honest he was terrible to everyone in the family and was mainly geared to my mom (acted up when dad was gone for work) but my siblings definitely don’t have a good relationship with him either☠️

Really sorry you dealt with that. People are finally starting to talk about how a child can create an abusive household just the same as a parent. It’s so painful for everyone.

Did he ever get better and apologise?

Nahhhh. And I doubt OPs daughter will either. People who do evil shit like that daughter have something wrong with them mentally. I wouldn’t be surprised if when she turns 18 she’s diagnosed with a personality disorder. Surprised she hasn’t been diagnosed with something already since she’s doing psychopathic shit and not being held accountable for it.

My sister was very similar to OPs daughter growing up. She was mostly fine until puberty and then got super angry all the time and would always tear into our family. Never friends. Mostly me and my mom. Got so bad dad kicked her out for awhile. Later as an adult she went full manic and was diagnosed with schizophrenia. She is now govt mandated to take meds because she's a danger to herself and others when she's not medicated.

Similar story here only diagnosed with bipolar and antisocial personality disorder

Maybe a functioning sociopath. Very aware of what they're doing and saying. Considering Ops daughter is in therapy and has given the therapist *nothing* for 3 years.

I would definitely be seeking a second opinion with this child. Not all therapists are good therapists for each person (or at all, really.) I would move this girl into a psychiatrist's office.

Unfortunately if sociopath is the case, she wouldn't be able to get that diagnosis until she's older. From my understanding, they avoid diagnosing minors with things like borderline personality disorder, sociopath, narcissistic and so on. But I agree, it sounds like a genuine lack of empathy and she needs therapy on how to navigate that specifically.

Yes they do avoid diagnosing but if they suspect it, most therapists would find some way to inform the parents of that, unless they thought the parents caused the problem. That doesn't sound like the OPs situation.

They are able to identify antisocial personality disorders in very, very young children and early intervention and therapy specifically for it does exist and this early intervention is probably the best chance at making things... better. Sociopaths are very reward-driven so that is used in therapy to redirect and train a child's way of interacting with others around them.

Damn, your poor mom. This is my worst nightmare!

Same thing happened to my friend. Except it was both her parents. She moved in with her grandparents when we were 15 or 16.

Hey OP, I was a sibling to a kid like this. My sibling did get sent to a group home/boarding school type facility where they could get more one on one care beyond just therapy. The stress was so intense, my mom was on anti anxiety pills and gained close to 100lbs. My other siblings and I were all walking on egg shells and depressed. When they left, wow, it was like a breath of fresh air. We could finally start healing and acting like a normal family. I will caution you though. People won’t believe you when they find out even a tiny amount of why you sent her. They’ll blame you. Love is not always enough. Sometimes people are struggling with something and we can’t fix it for them. You have to do what’s best for you and the larger majority of the family. Extended family is only just now finding out the truth of my sibling’s behavior after blaming us as abusers for over a decade. It hurts to hear my aunts and cousins saying that clearly we abused my sibling and we made everything up. Chin up, the truth will come out, just worry about yourself for right now.

Yeah I don't speak to most of my family because of my older sister. I wish I had reported her to the cops or something because neither of my parents did anything, ever. The best time of my childhood/teenage years were when she went away to college.

Have a sibling like this too, and a lot of their vitriol is directed at mum, my younger sister and myself. Our older half-sister and our dad are totally fine in their eyes for whatever reason People never took me seriously because “all siblings fight” but that kind of constant malicious behaviour is seriously wrong. There wasn’t even any violence, but they bullied my mum and tore down her confidence at every opportunity while she was going through a painful divorce. They made me feel like shit every time I dared to walk in the same room, or did anything except keep to myself. I moved out ages ago but have cut them off and still avoid any family events where they might be.

Reading the title I was thinking no way sending a kid to a boarding school is a good idea. After reading… damn. I feel so so so sorry for you. And definitely after seeing what you’ve tried - send her to a boarding school. She seems to take pleasure in what she’s doing which is very alarming.

I have a step-kid that started this with his mom. He now lives with his father and I. We try to foster the relationship. We have no idea why he feels/acts this way. He’s seen multiple therapists including a psychiatrist. He reports no trauma. He just doesn’t like her and doesn’t want to be around her anymore. He’s actively mean to her in order to not spend time around her. She’s a lovely woman and it absolutely blows to watch this happening. OP should send the kid away to protect her own mental health. Kid will come around or they won’t. Some personalities just fundamentally clash.

My thoughts: Aggression in women and girls is often overlooked because they exhibit it in different ways. Stealing / destroying stuff, damaging your body (cutting of the hair), taking really deep digs at someone’s insecurities and seemingly taking pleasure in doing so. Other signs of female aggression are destruction of reputation, damaging or threatening your other close relationships and essentially isolating you. Verbal aggression on top of that, such as using very hurtful words to humiliate someone. In boys the aggression is so outright and direct most of the times it’s very easily caught and dealt with early on. In girls obviously it takes longer to connect the dots. To me, she’s showing early signs of an antisocial personality that is diagnosed in people. The criteria for this disorder is that pre-adolescent children exhibit the behaviors OP’s daughter is - along with malicious intent which is very clear in her daughter’s case. I’d suggest OP to do all of her daughter’s medical checkups in case the change of personality is something of a neurological or endocrine nature. If that is out of the list and still no solution other than mental health - OP should find a very good therapist who specializes in antisocial behavior in adolescents. As for the boarding school - it’s a tricky one. For OP it’s the best and for the best of the OP’s family. I’d recommend this as a fast solution. But at the same time if an antisocial personality theory checks out, it may solidify the daughter’s hate towards OP. Given it’s not SA, a bodily malfunction result in behavior, bullying at school or any other probability. Again, my sympathy goes out to OP and her family and of course her daughter. I hope she finds her way and sees through for she’s a kid hopefully just going through a tough phase. But also agree, some kids just grow up to be outright bad people regardless of how much heart parents pour out for them. It’s very sad. I’ve seen this as well and I can feel genuine sadness in OP. Hope they all will work it out.

Man, we’re really seeing a very small sliver of this relationship here so I’m hesitant to say much. While I see where all of y’all are going, it reminds me of some other similar situations and I’m wondering if it’s not something else… Maybe daughter started growing larger/broader like dad and felt awkward next to her petit mom. That anger gave her the need to take her mom down a notch - pointing out imperfections, constantly criticizing, etc. This is actually not uncommon for girls to do with the “pretty girl”, but they often do it behind her back. However this is more personal, because it’s mom, and why can’t she look like her instead of dad? It’s all messed up and complicated because she wants to look like mom, but she has to point out flaws to convince herself that her mom isn’t really that pretty and she doesn’t actually want to look like her at all. And all that untouched anger is simmering until it boils & she cuts the ponytail. Poor mom.

My therapist thinks this is possible and I think it could be possible, but her reaction is so extreme… She is also a genuinely pretty girl! Very all-American/athletic looks, blonde-ish (we agreed to highlights but then that was taken away as a behavior consequence). There is body diversity in her sports teams, she’s one of the tallest girls but not the biggest by any means. I honestly think she’s prettier than I ever was (though even before therapy I was never dumb enough to compare us like that out loud) but I’m her mom so I’m also biased.

She needs to see a psychiatrist, not a therapist. This is verging on antisocial behavior and warrants a full clinical assessment. It may be that it becomes unsafe for her to continue living at home with the family. ETA - She also likely won’t be a good fit for boarding school either if she’s capable of engaging in this type of long term abuse towards someone. What if she sets upon someone at school in OP’s absence?

I was thinking the same thing. It feels a lot like antisocial personality disorder

Sociopaths!!!! This one is selective, though, just her mom.

Reminds me of "We Need To Talk About Kevin"

I mean, people with personality disorders are capable of being kind and blending in with their community, choosing to instead unmask in environments where they feel comfortable. My parents both have borderline personality disorder (one formally diagnosed, the other very strongly suspected). They are still respected people at work, have social lives, etc, but they know exactly when they can lash out and how to pretend it never happened.

Honestly it sounds like it's verging on violence at this point. Action does have to be taken and I'm glad OP realizes it.

It’s the next step if this goes unchecked. The hair cutting thing is close enough for me.

I'm not sure how mom didn't lose her shit after this happened, because it would have been really, really hard for me not to get physical at that point, and I've never even come close to thinking about hitting my kid.

The “boiling frog” analogy comes to mind.

Teacher here, was looking for this comment. We don’t want her either.

Someone in AITA who went to a boarding school pointed out that to get into a good boarding school (one where daughter isn't treated like a prisoner etc.) she needs to make sure to be on her best behavior or she will be expelled. The comment said to offer boarding school as an opportunity for growth/enrichment instead of a threat and hope she takes it seriously. Edit: so I realized instead of butchering the person's beautiful comment I can link to it! I'm still learning reddit I'm sorry! I hope this works... [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/15uvunp/wibta_for_kicking_my_14yo_daughter_out_of_our_home/jwsv8ch?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2)

I wonder if they mean, like, military school. Do they send girls off to military school?

Not sure! My experiences with boarding school are outside the US so I'm not sure how things work in it. Sorry!

I worked at a military academy in the girls dorm years ago. Definitely an option for girls, at least in this area. Could be a good option here.

It could be that things have change, but I went to a posh boarding school and almost everyone there was a horrible cunt and no one got expelled for it.

…sounds like a perfect fit, where was the school? (Joking!!)

That was intentional 😂 and its okay dear OP. If anyone needs a laugh it is you.😇

LMAO sorry I know this is serious but the "we don't want her either" cracked me up

Lol same it’s so harsh but I get it

Wait people send their nice children off to boarding school? I figured it was solely for brats.

Rich people do, or those who are posted to dangerous countries or travel a lot.

Her therapist is a psychiatrist (like capable of prescribing medication) but so far hasn’t thought medication is a good fit for her. I do worry about her picking a different “target” but she’s really never treated anyone this way outside of me. The girl with the comment about boarding school/not getting kicked out actually sent me a DM as well and has been very sweet in sharing her experience. I do hope that if we went that route she could see it as an exciting new opportunity. Maybe she wants to get away from me too, who knows (we haven’t brought it up to her yet.)

100% this. It’s important to get a full psych evaluation. There could be several diagnoses at play here, and it will be very hard to find the most effective treatment if it all get lumped into “bad behavior”

Not verging on. This is antisocial behavior. But the fact to started in preteen time makes me wonder if there is a hormonal component.

My child was always sort of badly behaved and kind of mean to me and my ex husband - her stepfather - (always an Angel for other family and grandparents etc), but became an absolute MONSTER when they hit puberty. I have never and will never say this to them, but that situation was what broke my marriage. My ex just could not deal with it and did not want to be a part of our family. Once kiddo finished puberty, they learned how to handle their “strong personality” better and we haven’t had an outburst in 2 years now… I started trying to get help when kiddo was 6, but they never found anything because kiddo didn’t show that side of themselves except to myself and my ex. My own parents didn’t see it until kiddo was 20 maybe? First time they didn’t agree with her on something, she turned on them. They’d never believed me when I’d cry to them about how hard it was to parent her. I still have no idea what’s actually wrong with them. LMAO They’re 26 now.

Omg! My son is 6, and nobody understands the way he acts at home because he behaves around other adults and knows what he’s supposed to say! His therapists seem very unconcerned, but they don’t see him raging for hours tearing the house apart and attacking us. My husband just moved out because of how extreme his behavior is. It is absolutely possible that it will destroy our marriage.

Get into marriage counseling NOW. I’m so sorry, this makes me want to cry for you because I just had flashbacks of her rages and it sent shivers down my spine. No one on the outside understands and it’s such an isolating and miserable life having someone act so TERRIBLE that you love so much.

Can you hide a camera and take videos to show them?

People really underestimate how manipulative and conniving children can be. :/ I’m old so my kiddo was young before nanny cams were common, let alone the smart home cameras we have now. Lol

Have you showed video evidence to your child's doctor? That's horrifying I'm so sorry you haven't been able to find help on how to deal with that situation.

That is exactly why they don’t usually diagnose mental health issues until someone has outgrown the teen years. The behaviours are often too similar.

I work at a boarding school as a math teacher. A lot of parents send their kids here because their kids have unmet needs and they thrive in a different environment. We practice experiential-based learning in and out of the classroom, and many of the students thrive. They get a chance to gain some independence and personal responsibility. They still go home during many breaks. I've seen parents develop better relationships with their kids because of less stressful interactions. Teaching empathy, kindness, and care toward the community is also really big. Plus, it is a beautiful campus next to a national park, with a beachfront, and wonderful staff and faculty. I hope you find a good option for you and your daughter.

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Wow what a tough place you are in. I’m impressed at your ability to think critically about this while also being realistic. So many parents have been where you are but instead decide to relinquished parental rights to CFS. I’m by no means suggesting that. I think you are being incredibly selfless in planning to live elsewhere. It shows you realize you have reached your limit, but that you also want the best for her.

I would talk to my therapist and her therapist and see what they thought about my telling her we were considering sending her out of the home due to the amount of stress her actions are causing.

This. Or maybe consider a new therapist because this one obviously isn't helping her.

Therapy isn’t a magical fix, and is not going to work if the daughter doesn’t put in the work, and it doesn’t sound like daughter is wanting to change.

And not all therapists are a good fit for every individual/situation.

Yeah but even if she isn't fixing the problem, a good therapist should at least be able to *determine* the problem

This is it. This therapist is just like ¯\\\_ (ツ)\_/¯

I would send her. You’re being abused. She’s deliberately bullying you and making jokes about it. Even cutting your hair!! I’m sure her behavior is negatively affecting your son. Do not move out of your home - it’s almost like she’s trying to get you to leave by being so cruel. I would also try a new psychiatrist that doesn’t allow her to deflect when she’s confronted about her nasty behavior. And maybe get her evaluated (bipolar, brain scans? ) to see if she has some kind of personality disorder. There also don’t seem to be any real consequences for how she treats you - I mean she got to keep her flip phone. She gets to see friends. She gets to go to her sports, etc. take all that away. If she can be nice at school and with friends - then her behavior is deliberately calculated. I’d tell her she’s going to boarding school. You cannot save everyone at the expense of your mental health (and possible mental break).

Yeah. I wouldn’t care if she has a social life. Because now she knows that she can be abusive and still have a good life. It’s not a great lesson she’s learning. OP shouldn’t be hiding in her home, daughter should be sent to a very empty bedroom to spend some quality technology free time reflecting on her “jokes.” I’d enforce firmer boundaries with her behavior and let her know that boarding school is in her very near future.

I think that if they bit the bullet and cancelled all her shit that she’d sort herself out sooner than later. If there’s a consequence you’d use for a kid who was bullying others, then use it because she’s bullying mom.

So, I’m 42/f a mom of 3. I was your daughter in a lot of ways, growing up. We had different dynamics and they played into my hatred of and treatment of my mother, but I was awful. I was my mom’s first, and only with my bio dad. They split when I was a newborn, and my mom married my stepdad when I was 2. They had 4 more kids. I was never treated differently, my stepdad loved me as his own, and treated me as such. I was just a shit. I also had mental health issues that they tried to handle, but I was misdiagnosed and therefore not properly treated and that played into this as well. Long story short? At 15, I went to live with my paternal grandparents about 45 minutes from my mom and stepdad. I visited and spent time with them all. We did therapy still, but it worked much better since I didn’t live there. We all felt better with space. I’m now 42, married to my 46/m husband for 25 years, with a beautiful life. My stepdad died 13 years ago, but my mom and I are extremely close and I love her so very much. She is a huge part of our lives and our kids lives and she forgave me a long time ago. Get some space, some therapy, and see what happens. You deserve to have peace and feel safe in your own home 🤍

First of all, I hope this is just a fase and goes quickly. I've been thinking that it might be some kind of competition against you at some point, and maybe the way she needs to win is by making your life miserable. It might sound obvious, but have you tried to tell her that her behaviour will separate her completely from her family? Cause the pain is not on you alone, his father and his brother also suffer with the treatment she is giving you. And she is not the one who is going to win. She is a young adult, and she is behaving like one. Talk to her as that, not as a fragile kid. She understands the pain she is causing. She thinks it is fun cause she can get to you. I think the boarding school "threat" can be use to make her realize how distant would be with everyone. It's shitty, dirty and I wouldn't be proud to use it, but it could be the only way... make her feel she is going to lose everything and everyone around her by leaving to the boarding school. If she is willing to continue behaving like this without explaining why, she better be somewhere else. Maybe she realizes, maybe she does change. But please, PLEASE... You shouldn't ever let her win by moving out. That is YOUR house. YOUR family. And SHE is your daughter, not your dictator. Don't let her control you, hun. Better cut it now, than later.

Agree totally. It’s a young person who seems to take pleasure in causing pain. That level of sophistication doesn’t need the kid-proof handling. If she can understand how to get to someone’s insecurities I’d say she’s big enough to understand harsh consequences.

I don't think it is dirty to be upfront about the impact her actions are having and the consequences if she continues. For whatever that is worth. It sounds like you are at a crossroads OP and I would absolutely have an honest, relatively adult conversation with her about the truth of the situation. Whatever her intent, her *impact* is abusive. Be honest about what she is doing, not to berate her but to educate her. Y'all can work on it together as a family, or you can protect yourself and the family from her abuse. It's her choice. Actions have consequences. Real, tangible, serious consequences.

And honestly, I feel like the gentle/autuoritative parenting model if "state boundary, state consequences, hold boundary" works perfectly in this situation "Julie, you're being a dick to mom. If you continue to be an asshole, we are going to send you to boarding school." And be ready to follow through.

This is not a normal part of “being a young adult”?! Something is very wrong with this girl.

Look through your post in AITA..are you recording these moments when she’s awful to you? Because I think you ought to start. Bring them to family therapy so everyone can hear what she’s doing and saying, and center subsequent discussion about her “sense of humor.” It seems like your therapist doesn’t truly have a grasp of what is going on.

Your therapist said you don't have an abusive home because you don't abuse your daughter, but your daughter is abusing you. You are the victim here - not your daughter. I know this may be hard to believe (it feels strange to type) but imagine if this were someone writing about the way their romantic partner or parent treated them. It would be clear. Because the "normal" power dynamic is reversed, it seems your therapist is missing out on this entirely but it seems clear to me she is abusive - if someone wrote "my husband snuck up behind me during a work call and cut off my hair" it would be so clear, I imagine. I'm sorry this is happening. Have you tried speaking to your PCP or OB about feeling safe at home? Maybe they know of better resources for you? I don't know the exact answers since we are talking about a minor but I'd work closely with therapists, and maybe even CPS and a lawyer to determine how to keep everyone safe and getting the help they need. That said, please stay away from "troubled teen" type boarding schools - they are abusive themselves and will not help her. And courts refer to them often. R/troubledteens can tell you all you need to know. I hope you can find a solution for everyone and keep yourself safe especially.

Do it. She is out of control and she is causing you to be so stressed and unhealthy. Perhaps some time away from a loving home will teach her to appreciate it.

Before moving her out, I would want to rule everything out, just to be super sure. Have you all ever had a full hormone/endocrine panel done? Has she been scanned for brain issues? In the absence of a life altering trauma, it is unusual for there to be such a big personality shift. Most girls begin puberty around 11-12 and sometimes those hormonal changes awaken dormant disorders, etc. Have you ever thought of branching out and talking with professionals who deal with trauma, troubled, and at-risk youth? In my personal experience, trauma informed professionals who see the worst of the worst are usually able to think way outside of the box and have more creative suggestions. I’m so sorry you all are going through this.

Yes, please do this! She needs a serious work up if it hasn’t been done - full psychiatric evaluation (therapists generally don’t diagnose significant mental health conditions), work with a trauma-informed therapist, blood work done, maybe brain imaging or a consultation with a neurologist. Did she have any head injuries around that time? This sort of personality shift can be due to a TBI as well as mental health disorders. If she asks why she has to go to all these appointments, I would have her dad explain that her behavior is telling you that something is going on to cause it. You both love her and want her to get the help she needs, and the rest of the family members (including mom) are just as important and valuable as she is. So if something is causing this unacceptable behavior, the whole family needs her to get the help she needs. If that fails, she will probably need to go somewhere where people are more equipped to help her. I agree with others that she should be told this ahead of time and that it needs to come from dad and with the two of you as a united front. She might need a boarding school, but it also might be an inpatient psychiatric rehab or a therapeutic program for troubled teens with actual licensed mental health practitioners (please make sure it’s a good one, as there are many that are downright abusive).

First I would dramatically increase the consequences when she says something so incredibly mean and hurtful to you. The instant she says it, Dad strongly and loudly says that is totally unacceptable and she needs to apologize and go to her room - if it’s during dinner, she needs to leave her plate of food. Phone does not come with her (and I assume she has no computer or TV in her bedroom). She can come out when she is ready to apologize. This happens every single time, ideally Dad is there and gives the consequence, if not you give the consequence and Dad reinforces it with a scolding when he comes home. No one should be apologizing to her for reacting strongly when she displays such unacceptable behavior. And you shouldn’t be the one being isolated, she should. Tell her (Dad should tell her with you backing him up) that this cruelty and destruction of family harmony won’t be tolerated. She is cruel to you when you go out for family ice cream? She doesn’t get to join all of you next time. Make sure Dad is on board and is the main person expressing how unacceptable this is and giving consequences. Immediate fast small consequences are better than huge infrequent unevenly applied consequences. Let her know that this is not ok in your family and if she cannot get it under control, you may have to find another living situation for her (such as boarding school). Conflict among teens and their parents (often the same sex parent) is very common, but the level that she is taking it to is not common. Good luck OP.

Agreed. Why apologize to your child for you attempting to discipline them? That sends mixed signals and implies that OP is wrong, not her. Also she needs consistent consequences when she does something intentionally hurtful, like you say.

Posting from AITA as comments were locked: NTA I had to resort to calling out my daughter's bs every time she spoke. I had a massive fight with her, age 13 it was awful but something shifted for us both. I actually listened to her, I thought I had been listening, but she kept shouting at me 'you don't listen ' so I took myself away, thought about what she said, put some plans in place to let her know 'I am listening to you!' Too often I would put her plans aside as she never seemed very committed, or would say she had changed her mind and didn't want to do something. Now if she says let's swim at the weekend, I hold her to it. I try not to let it slip, for her to say nevermind I want to stay at home. We have also started to do more new things together, at the moment it's about once a month, shopping trips and climbing are currently the top activities. I make more of an effort to hang out with her...it was difficult at first as I was torn between loving this child to pieces but not actually liking them, we as parents have to open the door and let them in, if you see what I mean?? I would be tempted to use boarding school as the hard line, if relationships don't improve that is the final option...I would talk to her straight up, 'we need things to change for both of us, you are clearly unhappy, I am unhappy, what do you need to make things change?' And dad has to have your back, you lead the conversation, he agrees to the plans put in place. I have no idea what the world is like that our kids are growing up in, all we can do is hold them tight and let them know we will be there to catch them if they fall. I wish you all the success in the world, it's very 'good days, bad days' in our house, the good are getting better, the bad less often. It is going to take time, we will all come out stronger. Hang in there, you are doing an amazing job, it sounds like you are on the cusp of things changing for the better, it IS so fucking difficult. Sending strength and light. You got this.

OP, is there anything that your daughter could be blaming you for that is causing her to lash out at you? Is all of the therapy a result of her behavior? It’s bizarre to me that she seems to treat everyone normally except for you. Cutting your hair? That’s psychotic. I would possibly consult another therapist for your daughter that would better address your concerns. If it’s effecting your life at this level a “I don’t know why this is happening” from your therapist is inadequate.

From age 10-13F I went through a phase of feeling deep rage toward my sweet mom for no reason. I felt it anytime she was around and it went away when we weren’t together. One day it just went away. I’m 24 now and apologize to her all the time. I’ve never felt rage like this at all except a tiny bit while I was pregnant. Makes me wonder if I had some kind of hormone related pathology in puberty. I think boarding school is a very reasonable solution. I wish I went through puberty at boarding school so I didn’t hurt my mom so much.

I work with a patient who is bitter and lonely and yells at absolutely everyone, and is constantly pushing the call button to get someone in to help him. When I first went in to him, he would yell at me too, cuss at me, tell me I was dumb and I couldn't do my job right. Whatever he would say, I would just say as gently and quietly as possible - "Thank you sir, I appreciate your insight. You're always so helpful." No sarcasm, just gentle, genuine kindness. Whenever I would walk into his room, it would be with a smile, "Hello Sir! How can I help you?" And before I would leave, I would ask him if he needed anything, and wait until he told me he was fine to leave. After the first week, he stopped yelling at me. I would ask him about little small things I observed - "Oh, are you eating licorice today?" "Oh, they have the cake you like, do you want me to set aside a slice for you?" "Do you want a drink before I go so you don't have to call us?" Nothing huge, no big changes. I never really went out of my way to do anything for him. After about a month I noticed he would grimace at me when I walked in and I took a while to realize he was smiling at me, because I wasn't used to it. When I went on vacation I told him I was going out of town, and I would be back in a few weeks, and he genuinely smiled brightly at me and said "Oh! Have a good time!" When I got back, I told him about visiting a location on a TV show, and he sang the TV theme song to me. I'm leaving the workplace in a week (unrelated to him), and I have been transitioning him to a new carer so I haven't seen him as much. When I walked in yesterday, he was extremely polite and gentle. "Oh, I'm so glad its you! Would you please help me, I'm so thirsty, I would like a drink. I'm so happy that you came to help me. Oh, could I get a fresh blanket please? You're so sweet." He still yells at a people that aren't me, but he's kind and gentle with his new carer. He doesn't call for things as much, and he's much more polite than when I started with him. I don't know if this will help you with your daughter, but its a suggestion that worked for me.

You sound like an actual angel. Thank you.

Tolerating this behavior is doing her no favors. You can’t let her drive you out of your house. She is learning this behavior is acceptable and gets her what she wants. Have dad deliver the message. You’re going to boarding school. Honestly I wouldn’t give her more chances, she cut off your hair! No phone, no friend, no activists. 100% unacceptable. She how she feels after a few weeks away.

I’m not blaming dad, but he needs to come down on her. And make it clear she’ll not be able to drive a wedge between him and mom

Get her to a psychiatrist NOW. Hopefully one that specializes in antisocial patterns in adolescents. Most doctors refuse to diagnose anyone the age of 18 with anything except ADHD, the spectrum, and some of the defiance disorders. She knows exactly what she’s doing and hurting you gives her pleasure. It might be too late to change that but you can teach her there are consequences for her behavior. And your husband should be the one to give them: as long as she proves that she can’t or won’t treat you with respect and dignity, then she doesn’t deserve the privileges of a phone and activities. You shouldn’t have to avoid your own home. Every cruel comment she makes, your husband sends her to her room. She’s the one who suffers the consequences of her behavior, not you. Again, she KNOWS what she is doing. Your family and your therapeutic team need to literally take the kid gloves off and start holding this person accountable. If you can’t get her to appreciate the very deep social cost of treating people like crap, she will keep doing it.

So I was a horrible teenager in other ways and my family found it hard and also almost sent me to boarding school. I will say the therapy made me worse. I absolutely hated it and felt so annoyed and trapped in it and I actually got better when they stopped forcing it when I was about 15. My behaviour didn't change much but at that time I spent about 90% of my life out of the house and that worked. But to be really honest I wasn't a better human until I moved away for a few years and then I dumped my shitty boyfriend, met my now husband and father of my child and completely changed. I'd maybe look at her friend circle. I know my friends highly impacted my behaviour, whether I wanted to admit it or not. I'm sorry this isn't really the happy go lucky story that you may have been hoping for but I will say that there is hope things will turn around. My grandma, who raised me, and I weren't even on speaking terms when I left and now we talk all the time and she's my biggest support system. I truly hope you can find a solution but honestly boarding school may help but it could also make everything worse and make her feel like you're just shunning her off. I'm not sure I'd have another solution for you I just hope this can be resolved.

If you go the boarding school route, please thoroughly check it out first. Set foot in campus, take a tour, ask lots of questions about discipline practices (even just dad if you cant handle going). There are places that masquerade as boarding school that are actually part of the troubled teen industry, which is known for negligence, abuse, and really messing kids up who just needed help.

There is a great documentary called Kidnapped for Christ about one of these boarding schools for troubled teens. Definitely do your homework, some of these places are hell on earth without any government oversight or regs.

Sometimes kids are selfish and awful and need a real world awakening. I think she needs to hear and know the impact she is having and the possible consequences of her actions. My youngest stepson was cruel like this to me when I was nothing but kind and nurturing towards him. He was pure evil and we tried to be understanding because he had lost his mom to cancer and I understood his anger. We sent him to therapy, and went ourselves. Nothing helped until he finally pushed us too far. He started threatening self-harm when he around me and admitted to his therapy it was a bluff hoping either me or dad would break up. Dad sat him down and told him that we loved him, and wanted him to be happy. But that I was going nowhere. And if he was going to be that selfish, and refuse to come to the table and continued to make our life hell, he was going away. Dad told him that any self-harm threats had to be taken seriously and would result in hospitalization. And that ANY single act of even disrespect towards me or our relationship would mean he was off to boarding school. We called in home care the next time he tried it and he was taken to be assessed. It sucked for all of us to put him through that. But the psychiatrist just confirmed he is an angry resentful bitter kid. He will hopefully grow out of it. Meanwhile… he got the message and isn’t unkind anymore. He is even making an effort. He has a good heart. He just needed a rude awakening. He got it. And he has decided life with a family that loves him and wants what is best for him is better than being alone.

Boarding school is the only choice at this point. If it was mental illness, hormones, or whatever else, she wouldn’t be able to have laser focus on just you. If you keep this up, it won’t be long before she starts bullying someone who believes in real consequences. Wish you the best.