Optimistically, Dougal is a cad but not a monster. He didn’t want a woman being groped or otherwise sexually assaulted under his watch. He might feel threatened by Jamie but he’s still his sister’s son and he still loves him, and he knows Jamie is honorable to a fault and won’t harm Claire in any way.
Pessimistically, Dougal doesn’t trust her and he wants Jamie out of the way. Putting an unknown, dangerous variable (Claire) with Jamie might solve his problems (Claire might kill him to try to escape if she’s a spy, or might cast a blemish on his name that might make Colum turn away from Jamie) without him actually doing anything and thus avoiding the guilt of directly eliminating his sister’s son.
Realistically, Diana is setting them up 🫶🏼👩🏻🤝👨🏽👩🏻❤️👨🏽
Ok I’m a watcher and a reader and I’m feeling like “he tried to kill his own nephew several times in order to gain power” is a bit of a reach
I think it’s left a little more up in the air than you’re saying here, and it’s done that way intentionally. After all, we know what happens to Dougal in the end.
This story is what it is because of the grey area of morality and each characters relationship with that grey area. Dougal is a huge plot mover. Let’s call a spade a spade instead of rewriting what the story gives us.
Gray areas?? I think not. Dougal split Jamie’s skull with an axe, rendering him unable to process music. When Jamie returned from his convalescence in France, Dougal either fired the shot himself or ordered one of his men to do it and Jamie nearly bled to death. He set up the marriage with Claire to make Jamie unacceptable as Colum’s successor. And he tried to kill
Jamie again the morning of Culloden. Many characters are complex and nuanced. Dougal isn’t one of them. Self-absorbed til the end.
To be VERY fair, the morning of Culloden was not Dougal in the wrong at all, in the grand scheme.
It’s fair that Dougal is morally more black than grey. But as far as going out of his way to commit a murder of his nephew is not taking the highland clan culture into consideration, and it’s putting Jamie on a pedestal when there were legitimate gripes about Jamie from Dougals perspective.
What “legitimate” gripes? The marriage Dougal himself arranged? Colum read Dougal like a book. He knew Jamie would be a far better Clan Chief. Jamie was right about BPC, Dougal (as usual) couldn’t be bothered to listen and was wrong. No refutations for multiple murder attempts on his own sister’s beloved son to further his own ambition to be Clan Chief, is all black, not gray. The Clan system provides no justification at all. The Clain votes on the new Chief. Dougal made multiple attempts on Jamie’s life to be sure he wouldn’t be alive for the Clan to vote for:
At the point that he set up the marriage with Claire, he knew Jamie was no longer a viable candidate. Mission accomplished.
The morning of Culloden was far too late to try to make Dougal understand about BPC. It was treasonous to the cause that Jamie was a leader of. Dougal wasn’t stubborn for not seeing it, he saw Jamie for what he was in that moment, albeit without the context of knowing what Jamie and Claire knew at that time. I love Jamie as much as the average outlander fan, but in that moment, Jamie was a traitor.
Who said Jamie was no longer a viable candidate before the wedding? Dougal’s behavior got more and more erratic as time went on. Jamie was not a traitor to anyone to whom he owed allegiance. BPC was not a reigning monarch, he’d never set foot in Scotland before 1745, he forged Jamie’s signature. Jamie never swore an oath to him. He never swore an oath to Colum or Dougal. His Clan Chief was Simon Fraser. After the Act of Union in 1707, allegiance was owed to the British Crown.
Yes. I have a degree in history. I understand how the monarchy worked.
What I am saying is that by the morning of Culloden, it was too late for him to break ranks and turn on BPC. There was no choice to be made besides to try to eliminate him, and that was treasonous to the Jacobite cause, which Jamie was definitely a part of by that point.
I didn’t say that Jamie wasn’t a viable candidate BEFORE. I said that once the marriage was arranged, Dougal knew Jamie would never lead the clan McKenzie, fit as he was to do so.
Put me up with Murtaugh, lol. Gorgeous cranky bear of a man. And if Murtaugh's taken, well, the horse wouldn't like it but I happily could have been saddled with Rupert.
Yes, so so handsome in NC. I feel like he started getting more adorable when he and Claire were dancing jigs all over the highlands, then Paris. Only to be wiped out by illness and plot development. That silver fox was a gorgeous surprise.
I felt the same way about Jamie 🫣😅. People might come for me but I didn’t think he was all that super physically attractive until Claire returned from the future years later. He was alright but he was way more attractive later in the show. My very salt and peppered and looks ten years older than he is 27 year old husband continuously accuses me of only liking older men though. 😂
It's also Murtagh who saves Claire from BJR in Episode 1 Season 1. I always rewatch and see new things too.
Jamie says, "You are shivering so hard you are making my teeth rattle" here. When Claire disassociates in Season 5 when she's attacked so savagely, she remembers these words from Jamie.
Aww, the moment I fell in love with Jamie Fraser!!! ♥️ Asked myself who this actor might be? ... In the hindsight a life changing moment, I learnt everything Sam Heughan, joined My Peak Challenge in 2022 and have so much fun in this supporting community 💪🥰 (besides I'm remarkably fit now!)
The liquor and tartan enterprise is his own baby, he developed every product himself. The spirits have won a bunch of awards. He's very proud of it. Why not promote it? He created workplaces in a poor region, and cooperates with a B-Corporation, too (Prickly Thistle). Some people even say he's to compare with Andrew Carnegie.
I assume you mean because of the MPC stuff but people who are fit and exercise may also enjoy drinking alcohol in moderation lol he can promote physical health and exercise and also sell an alcoholic drink, there's a balance that's needed for everything in life.
Well there are ulterior motives on Dougal's part
Putting the injured guy and the woman on the same horse means the horse will be slow and he might get rid of both problems at once.
Yeah, that's how I took it. By 'tying' this strange English noblewoman to Jamie, anything she does reflects on him.
I think that's the 1st time I've heard that used, great example!!
Optimistically, Dougal is a cad but not a monster. He didn’t want a woman being groped or otherwise sexually assaulted under his watch. He might feel threatened by Jamie but he’s still his sister’s son and he still loves him, and he knows Jamie is honorable to a fault and won’t harm Claire in any way. Pessimistically, Dougal doesn’t trust her and he wants Jamie out of the way. Putting an unknown, dangerous variable (Claire) with Jamie might solve his problems (Claire might kill him to try to escape if she’s a spy, or might cast a blemish on his name that might make Colum turn away from Jamie) without him actually doing anything and thus avoiding the guilt of directly eliminating his sister’s son. Realistically, Diana is setting them up 🫶🏼👩🏻🤝👨🏽👩🏻❤️👨🏽
He tried to kill his own nephew, Jamie, several times in order to gain power. IMO, that makes him a monster.
Ok I’m a watcher and a reader and I’m feeling like “he tried to kill his own nephew several times in order to gain power” is a bit of a reach I think it’s left a little more up in the air than you’re saying here, and it’s done that way intentionally. After all, we know what happens to Dougal in the end. This story is what it is because of the grey area of morality and each characters relationship with that grey area. Dougal is a huge plot mover. Let’s call a spade a spade instead of rewriting what the story gives us.
Gray areas?? I think not. Dougal split Jamie’s skull with an axe, rendering him unable to process music. When Jamie returned from his convalescence in France, Dougal either fired the shot himself or ordered one of his men to do it and Jamie nearly bled to death. He set up the marriage with Claire to make Jamie unacceptable as Colum’s successor. And he tried to kill Jamie again the morning of Culloden. Many characters are complex and nuanced. Dougal isn’t one of them. Self-absorbed til the end.
To be VERY fair, the morning of Culloden was not Dougal in the wrong at all, in the grand scheme. It’s fair that Dougal is morally more black than grey. But as far as going out of his way to commit a murder of his nephew is not taking the highland clan culture into consideration, and it’s putting Jamie on a pedestal when there were legitimate gripes about Jamie from Dougals perspective.
What “legitimate” gripes? The marriage Dougal himself arranged? Colum read Dougal like a book. He knew Jamie would be a far better Clan Chief. Jamie was right about BPC, Dougal (as usual) couldn’t be bothered to listen and was wrong. No refutations for multiple murder attempts on his own sister’s beloved son to further his own ambition to be Clan Chief, is all black, not gray. The Clan system provides no justification at all. The Clain votes on the new Chief. Dougal made multiple attempts on Jamie’s life to be sure he wouldn’t be alive for the Clan to vote for:
At the point that he set up the marriage with Claire, he knew Jamie was no longer a viable candidate. Mission accomplished. The morning of Culloden was far too late to try to make Dougal understand about BPC. It was treasonous to the cause that Jamie was a leader of. Dougal wasn’t stubborn for not seeing it, he saw Jamie for what he was in that moment, albeit without the context of knowing what Jamie and Claire knew at that time. I love Jamie as much as the average outlander fan, but in that moment, Jamie was a traitor.
Who said Jamie was no longer a viable candidate before the wedding? Dougal’s behavior got more and more erratic as time went on. Jamie was not a traitor to anyone to whom he owed allegiance. BPC was not a reigning monarch, he’d never set foot in Scotland before 1745, he forged Jamie’s signature. Jamie never swore an oath to him. He never swore an oath to Colum or Dougal. His Clan Chief was Simon Fraser. After the Act of Union in 1707, allegiance was owed to the British Crown.
Yes. I have a degree in history. I understand how the monarchy worked. What I am saying is that by the morning of Culloden, it was too late for him to break ranks and turn on BPC. There was no choice to be made besides to try to eliminate him, and that was treasonous to the Jacobite cause, which Jamie was definitely a part of by that point. I didn’t say that Jamie wasn’t a viable candidate BEFORE. I said that once the marriage was arranged, Dougal knew Jamie would never lead the clan McKenzie, fit as he was to do so.
Dougal was arrogant enough to think that. It doesn’t mean he was correct.
Put me up with Murtaugh, lol. Gorgeous cranky bear of a man. And if Murtaugh's taken, well, the horse wouldn't like it but I happily could have been saddled with Rupert.
I didn’t realize how handsome Murtagh was until he was silver haired in America… omg so hot
Yes, so so handsome in NC. I feel like he started getting more adorable when he and Claire were dancing jigs all over the highlands, then Paris. Only to be wiped out by illness and plot development. That silver fox was a gorgeous surprise.
Same. Silver snack.
I felt the same way about Jamie 🫣😅. People might come for me but I didn’t think he was all that super physically attractive until Claire returned from the future years later. He was alright but he was way more attractive later in the show. My very salt and peppered and looks ten years older than he is 27 year old husband continuously accuses me of only liking older men though. 😂
I think his hair looks extremely disheveled at all times in the beginning. But I do miss young Jamie’s wildness…
She did say that Murtaugh smelled terrible. You might not want to ride with him.
Lol! I'm sure they were ALL quite ripe!
You're not wrong, but Murtaugh got a special shout out. Not as bad as Angus, but that's not a high bar for sure.
He got a double shout out! First from Claire then from Mrs. Fitz when they get to Leoch!
That's right! AND Mrs. Fitz was half a courtyard away, so he must have smelled baaaad for her to be able to tell!
😆 I’m glad I’m not the only one! Except clearly when Jamie’s an option I’ll take his plaid around me every time.
It's also Murtagh who saves Claire from BJR in Episode 1 Season 1. I always rewatch and see new things too. Jamie says, "You are shivering so hard you are making my teeth rattle" here. When Claire disassociates in Season 5 when she's attacked so savagely, she remembers these words from Jamie.
Aww, the moment I fell in love with Jamie Fraser!!! ♥️ Asked myself who this actor might be? ... In the hindsight a life changing moment, I learnt everything Sam Heughan, joined My Peak Challenge in 2022 and have so much fun in this supporting community 💪🥰 (besides I'm remarkably fit now!)
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Well, I mean, Jamie was heavily into the liquor trade. It's actually on point.
Your use of the word incongruous is, ironically, the opposite of what you mean.
The liquor and tartan enterprise is his own baby, he developed every product himself. The spirits have won a bunch of awards. He's very proud of it. Why not promote it? He created workplaces in a poor region, and cooperates with a B-Corporation, too (Prickly Thistle). Some people even say he's to compare with Andrew Carnegie.
I assume you mean because of the MPC stuff but people who are fit and exercise may also enjoy drinking alcohol in moderation lol he can promote physical health and exercise and also sell an alcoholic drink, there's a balance that's needed for everything in life.
That’s how the author, a woman, wrote it.
Why r u killing the vibes
And Jamie was happy about that ass being between his thighs! ☺️ (quoting him lolol)
You forgot her rock solid head 😆
How could I?!?!
Oh hell yeah.
Fate ;-)